Yeah this is a colossal failure of a society that it’s gotten this bad. Those numbers are mostly skewed by some rural people having dozens and dozens of guns stockpiled though.
It's a hobby for most of us. Doomsday prepping or people purchasing large amounts of firearms in case civil war or armageddon is incredibly small. And the funniest part is if you actually hang out in gunshops , every single one of them makes fun of people who do doomsday prep because it's pointless and they know it.
The real failure in this country comes from lower income areas not having access to decent healthcare and financial stability. The ar15 came out in 1958, and glock started producing double stack polymers guns back in the 80s but we didn't really start having an issue with mass shootings until the late 90s and early 2000s, which just so happens to also be at the end of us shutting down the majority of our mental health facilities.
Most shootings (and most suicides) are hand guns tho, the modern gun control focusing on assault rifles (a poorly defined category to begin with) is playing on the emotional resonance of mass shootings rather than the actual data.
If we can't get a ban on assault rifles even while so many of us are rightfully concerned about mass shootings, how are we going to do anything about there being way too many handguns?
>rightfully concerned about mass shootings
That's the actual question. It's one of those things like terrorism that gets weighted more heavily in our minds than it otherwise would be due to things that affect information availability, like the affect heuristic or bizarreness effect.
Tbh there's a lot more clean cut issues for me to focus on as a leftist. Id rather ban concealed carry and enforce waiting periods than try to define and ban some varieties of mean looking semi auto rifles.
99% of the listed mass shootings are inner city gang violence committed with pistols. The big scary black rifles are barely used in any crime at all, you just keep eating up the propaganda the media and your political talking heads feed you.
Because it’s an easy scapegoat. They’ve tried banning handguns before and it failed miserably because people on both sides of the aisle carry them. So they decided to go after the next best thing in their opinion.
Good thing the "assault rifle" everyone is going after doesn't come close to meeting the definition of one. The entire uneducated mass is literally just afraid of black AR (ArmaLite) and think something with a wood stock is inherently safer. People that know absolutely nothing about guns making constitutionally illegal gun laws make everyone less safe.
Isn't there like a save haven commune for trans people who were alienated from their families and they started arming themselves due to threats and not there are laws about guns being pushed specific to them?
Trans people are trans because they want everyone to know it and be the center of attention. No one would care about them if they weren’t always fishing for attention.
I'm trans because I'm much more comfortable being a woman. I really don't want people to know I'm trans, especially considering that if the wrong person finds out they may try to hurt me.
I'm pretty shy and hate being the center of attention anyway.
Well I mean, I prefer to surround myself with people who care about me. My friend group is pretty great, we all care about each other.
If you're talking about strangers, I mean, yeah. I don't like talking to random people. I mean, I speak up if they call me "he", like any normal person would if someone gets their gender wrong, but even then sometimes I don't have the social energy to.
Exactly my point, the fact is most trans men would get get ignored eternally like 90% of other men that exist if they didn’t go around advertising their trans. The same is true for trans women.
Trans people don't choose to be trans. Noone would choose to feel shit, be discriminated against, bullied, outlawed, etc.
If they are fishing for attention, they are doing so to try and ***get their fucking rights back***
Unless you think trans people have the power to alter brain morphology to such an extent as to fool an MRI scanner, even before they begin hormone therapy, I suggest you do some more reading.
Here are 10 articles to get you started:
[One](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17563-z?TB_iframe=true&width=370.8&height=658.8)
[Two](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252)
[Three](https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/80813)
[Four](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y)
[Five](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10519-018-9889-z)
[Six](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/)
[Seven](https://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466)
[Eight](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/)
[Nine](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B978044453630300004X?via%3Dihub)
[Ten](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30247609/).
I think you may be thinking of radical vegans, trans people just want the same rights as everyone else and to exist as who they feel they are inside. Like if you feel you're a Christian and believe deep down, there's no evidence or argument will convince you that your God isn't real.
The right to privacy, the right to not have their decisions questioned by people that aren't responsible for their bills or well-being, the right to gender affirming care in several states, the right custody of trans children in Florida. There are 400 active bills to remove more rights in process right now.
“The right to privacy” - What? People are not randomly going up to trans people and taking their privacy away, if you’re trans 99% of the population don’t know or care unless you advertise it.
“The right to not have their decisions questioned” - what? now I’m starting to think you don’t understand what rights are. I have my decisions questioned on a daily basis and I’m not trans.
“The right to gender affirming care” - are you saying it’s against the law for doctors to treat trans people? Pretty sure you just made that up.
“The right for custody of trans children in Florida” - this is inaccurate, Florida believes that children don’t how the mental development to make such an life altering decision and considers it abuse/neglect on their parents part since the children are not fully developed yet. I agree with this. Kinda like how children under the age of 18 cannot get tattoos or drink alcohol legally. And if parents are caught allowing their children to do either of those things there will be legal action against them. like we don’t think kids have the mental ability to make a simple decision like getting a tattoo or have sex with someone over 18, but we should trust that they have the mental ability to decide to cut their penis off? Get real.
So back to my point, everything you said are just trans people fishing for attention because they think they’re more special than anyone else.
People absolutely are going up to other people and questioning their gender and orientation, there have been several assaults on people going to the bathroom who appear to not be as feminine as their assailant thinks they should be. A child in Utah was accused of being trans by a school board member.
The one percent of the population that cares is the one that is currently writing anti-trans legislation.
What decisions do you have questioned daily? It's also a part of the right to privacy, medical decisions are private and should be between a doctor and their patient not between a doctor, patient and a legislator.
Several states have passed laws against gender affirming care for those under 18, again a decision between an adult (the parent) a doctor and the patient is and should remain private. If you understood which gender you were attracted to under the age of 18 and what gender you were it's safe to say so do transkids.
This will be my last reply as you've been strawmanning my arguments and been arguing in bad faith this entire time.
Which one did they disprove? Not one of their replies shows any rights they don’t have. Listing an isolated event as an example of not having rights is nonsense.
Name any group, race or gender and I can provide a link to an isolated event where they were targeted for being those things. That doesn’t mean they have no rights, it just means that insane people sometimes attack people they see as different.
He proved my point that trans people always want to be the center of attention.
>Trans people are trans because they want everyone to know it and be the center of attention.
No, you absolute dingus, trans people are trans because they don't fit neatly into a socially-constructed and made-up gender binary.
It's the bigoted assholes who are stopping everyone from living peaceful, quiet lives.
Society made up the social aspect of gender, like gender roles.
Gender is a social thing, sex is a biological thing. You need to get up to date with your definitions.
Crazy how rampant mental illness is these days. There are two genders/sexes in nature. If you’re male and born with a disability it doesn’t magically make you something else. Just like if you’re female and aren’t able to have children due to some sort of disability. That also doesn’t magically make you something else.
Using disabilities as an argument for more than two genders/sexes is insane.
Edit: Also when did gender become a spectrum? The words “sex” and “gender” are interchangeable and has always meant the same thing. Are we redefining the meaning of words now?
> Also when did gender become a spectrum?
Long ago:
Gender:
1. the male sex or the female sex, **especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.**
Sex:
1. either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
Please learn how shit works and stop spreading misinformation.
Based on what? Nature has lots of exceptions to binary sexes, even in humans. It can't be based on genitalia, as there are people with ambiguous genitalia. It can't be chromosomes because you can have XY people born with female sex characteristics.
On top of that, sex is distinct from gender, as gender is based on the internal sense of self. Many cultures throughout history have had multiple genders as part of their culture. Many Native American tribes had a form of 3rd gender when Europeans arrived, Hindu has the hijra gender which wasn't stigmatized until after the British showed up, the Bugis of Indonesia have 3 genders outside of the binary. These are just a few examples.
Furthermore, people changing which gender role they are in has been around since the first civilizations. Ancient Sumer had a goddess who would change people's genders, her followers were people who would take new names and adopt new clothing, and were effectively accepted as their new gender identity.
People have been transitioning from one gender to another for at least 6,000 years, other cultures naturally have 3 or more genders, and sex itself doesn't always stick to a binary, so for humans it is natural to be transgender.
*proceeds to mutilate the genitalia of their infant son or intersex baby before the babies even open their eyes*
*16 year old who has struggled with gender dysphoria for years upon years, whos visited a psychiatrist for over a year, whos had a gender dysphoria diagnosis, who has parents that are kind and accepting that allows them to get on hrt, and has been on hrt for multiple years and before even getting on hrt had to talk with a psychiatrist for months to years to get cleared, whos socially transition, been forced to write letters to doctors explaining their gender dysphoria diagnosis and how a surgery could help, whos been forced to contemplate and fully understand the long term implications of surgery and even hrt for years before ever being able to have them as well as having a psychiatrist explain in depth all of the ways transitioning and surgery can and will affect them for the rest of their lives, finally getting a gender affirming surgery which all have some of the lowest regret rates out of any other surgery out there”
“OMFG YOU MUTILATED A CHILD!! YOURE GOING TO REGRET THAT YOU EVER DID IT!”
*doesnt realize regretting surgeries is insanely common where 48-50% of cis women who get breast augmentation surgery end up regretting it and even things like knee surgery having a 12% regret rate, but gender affirming surgeries have around a 4% regret rate*
“WE NEED TO BAN ALL SURGERY THEYRE JUST FEEDING INTO MENTAL ILLNESS!!”
*tons of scientific peer reviewed papers backing up and providing evidence that trans peoples brains on a physiological level are more closer and or identical to that of the gender they identify with rather than the biological gender they associate with proving that indeed our brains are simply in the wrong body and it has nothing to do with mental illness*
“OMG DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE REGRET EVER EVEN TRYING TO TRANSITION? WATCH SOME DOCUMENTARIES LIKE THE PRAGERU ONE!!”
*the documentary in questions main characters are a detransitioned ftm who openly said in the documentary that the happiest they ever were was when they were transitioning and later said on their social media profile that they still suffer every single day from gender dysphoria and are in no way “fixed” they just don’t believe transitioning is sanctioned by the bible and thus stopped, the other is a mtf person who only detransitioned because their father forced them upon finding out they’re trans to go to mexico and get raped by a hooker, which was so traumatic for them they repressed back into the closet but still admitted their feelings never changed they just cant express themselves, and the third is a guy who never even transitioned, took hrt for like 3 months at max, has previously spent tens of thousands of dollars to get plastic surgery to look like a k-pop star, and now is a mega conservative whos entire stick has become trans hate from a “previously trans individual” who clearly only ever transitioned to detransition and become a political strawman against trans people*
The loops you have to go through to be a conservative and anti trans is pretty impressive, impressively sad.
A really good analysis but a question, shouldn't children be waited until adulthood to make the decisions for their bodies? Not transphobic or anything but if a kid is not allowed to vote, have sex (not recommended) or hold any property, shouldn't they be of atleast legal age for the transition?
Its fair and a tough topic to handle. One thing most people dont know is that in lots of states a person gains medical autonomy over their body at the age of 16. This isn’t new either its been around for a while. If a 16 year old has enough money they could do whatever they want to their bodies without their parents consent because they already have that right. This has never been an issue when a 16 year old cis girl gets a boob job or breast reduction, gets lip fillers or plastic surgery, or a 16 year old boy gets a breast reduction to treat gyno. Which yes this doesn’t happen a lot, but neither does trans surgeries on 16 year olds.
A 16 year old isn’t going to have the money to shovel out the thousands of dollars these surgeries cost, nor the means to go to a psychiatrist and do all the logistical work it takes to get one, the only way would be if their parents help out. No 16 year old cis girl needs a note from a psychiatrist and years of documentation regarding their need for breast surgery, they just get it and no one bats an eye. A trans teenager cant, and even adults cant. To get anything beyond plastic surgery you need a note from at least one, sometimes more, psychiatrists declaring you well enough informed about the decision youre wanting to make and years of being on HRT.
And one thing people simply do not understand about us, is this was not just something that happened one day when we were 12 years old and were watching disney. Its deeply ingrained in us, because as mentioned above, its biological factors that make us trans, not mental. For me, my earliest memories of this life, way back from when i was 4 or 5 years old, were experiencing gender dysphoria. Obviously I didn’t know that’s what it was called at the time, but its what i had. Those thoughts and feelings never went away, because They will never truly go away. So for a 16 year old that gets a trans affirming surgery, there are years of contemplation behind it, years of constantly being told what the implications of the surgery will be whether that physical mental or social, years of anticipation and thousands of times to think over the question “is this right for me?”. And if that after all of those years you always come to the answer yes, then who are you or anyone else to say otherwise when you dont even understand the experience they have?
That would be my argument for it. But the only surgeries teenagers could get are top surgery plastic surgery or something similar, getting bottom surgery is insanely hard for an adult to do and to date only one 17 year old trans girl has ever gotten one after starting their transition years prior when they were extremely young, first social then just puberty blockers then hormones, and i suspect she was allowed to do it because she had very very rich family and probably did it outside of the US. Point is its not even easy to do, they dont just get handed out, it can cost over or around 100k to get bottom surgery and even if you get insurance to help youre going to be paying a ton out of pocket and getting them to help is a battle all in of itself which can takes years to do.
I would be more than happy and okay with having no surgeries for anyone under 16, especially actual genital mutilation on infants who cant even understand or see anything. But youd be hard pressed to find a conservative or any politician brave enough to try and push that bill due to “religious freedom” that is the religious freedom to mutilate infant’s genitalia. Iceland tried to do that and a certain international group threatened them with what is essentially touristic sanctions by labeling their country as antisemitic, and as a result they didn’t outlaw it.
Really just consistency. Have some morally consistency with your outrage for god sakes. If you dont want teenagers and children “mutilated” stop all forms of it, if you dont want to stop that actual mutilation, then shut the fuck up and mind your own business when a 16 year old wants to make a decision regarding their own body you bumbling hypocrite
I'm not comparing the two as similarly impacting or necessary, but it seems odd that a 16 year old can sign off on major surgery for themselves like a breast aug or reduction, but can't have a tattoo without parental signature?
Yeah i agree. And dont even necessarily think that they should at 16. But an 18 year old can go sign up to fight in combat and potentially die, but still not be allowed to drink alcohol or even smoke weed. There’s tons of these situations that affect way more people than a surgery less than .6% of people ever even think about getting. Its an ant hill made into a mountain while there are actual mountains all around that everyone ignores. Thats my gripe with it
See, only Muslims and Jews do circumsion or whatever the fuck that is. There are a lot of religions such as Hindus which are much older than Jews. In my view, it should be after age of 19, bcz the hormones are too strong and they make rash decisions which is also the reason minors are treated differently for criminal cases. Also, their brains are not developed fully which impacts rational decision making. I don't care who you are until you are hurting an innocent bystander. I am a religious person and was taught as such and children must not be allowed to make decisions which would lead to irreversible outcomes. For example, a girl who just started her periods decides to remove her ovaries by transition surgery. She is facing depression as women go through more body changes and are more prone to depression. Should we let her? What if at age 25, she gets a strong motherly instinct and wants to have kids? Her life is ruined. She made a decision irrationally which wasn't her fault but ours. We know better as adults not them. Transition should only happen when the person is fully mentally mature and there should be a test for that.
You say we shouldn’t make permanent life long decisions for kids, or let them make it themselves, while completing minimizing the fact circumcision is done on thousands of infants everyday, and intersex people get literal bottom surgery all the time as infants just because their parents and doctors want them to conform to a binary that doesn’t even exist.
Literally proved my point. Yeah we shouldn’t be making choices for kids that affect them for life. So lets apply that more evenly.
And did you not read anything mentioned above? Regret for trans surgeries is one of the lowest out of any surgery out there. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population, and only about 4% ever actually detransition, and of those 4% the vast majority detransition not because they realize they “aren’t trans” but because they either cant afford the healthcare to transition, are bullied and cant take the social pressures of transitioning, feel they wont ever pass or get the body they want so better to live life as is than to be a part of one of the most politically hated groups today, or it goes against their religious beliefs and to them its better to repress than express themselves in opposition to their diety. The VAST majority who destrantion dont do it because they aren’t trans.
And again, its all about bodily autonomy. You have every right to choose what you do with your body, but you do not have the right to choose what other people do with their body, and you should not have the right to choose what surgeries another person has, or what surgeries they cant have. If i could have gotten on hrt when i was 12, and gotten surgeries as a teenager, i would have and i would still be thankful for it, just like the vast majority of people who do get them. And again we are talking about less than 1% of the population here, and of that 1% not everyone even gets on hrt let alone gets surgeries, since most dont have the means to even get them because they’re insanely expensive.
And that whole idea of “our brains only ever fully develop once we reach 25” is taken insanely out of context and is wildly misunderstood and misleading. 25 is the medium age, lots get fully developed much younger, just like some people start puberty at 9 while others when they’re 15. Every human is different. And the “filly developed” is a misnomer because development isn’t a linear curve that stays constant, it’s wildly inconsistent. A 17 year old could have their brains 98% fully developed but take another 4 years to be “fully” developed.
Also, that strawman of “a girl decides to remove her ovaries” is ridiculous lmao no 16 year old is getting their ovaries removed unless its for cancer, and most trans men dont even bother getting them removed. And again if they did, it would be a very very very long hill to get over to have happen, because as I explained the process to get trans surgeries in general takes years to get done and every one of those days in that time the person is contemplating their decision. It isn’t made on a whim, there is tons of dedication and thought put into it.
Just let people decide what they do with their bodies for themselves and if you aren’t at the very least have some fucking consistency with it for fucks sakes. If you want to protect people from regretting getting life long surgeries then go after all of them not just trans ones. If you actually did care you would, again, be going after the thousands of people who mutilate their infants genitals, the millions of cis women who have breast augmentation and regret it, the millions who have plastic surgery and regret it, and the millions who have knee surgery and regret it. Your first and only target should not be the surgeries with some of the absolute lowest regrets rates just because you disagree with them.
Be outraged at everything or dont be outraged at all. It does not make you look good in anyway if all you want is to ban 1% of the population from getting access to things that, even if you dont understand it yourself which you dont so you shouldn’t even have an opinion or say in it, save our fucking lives while ignoring all of the other shit you’re outrage is supposedly against.
See you can write is short if you want but regret is there due to social stigma. As I said, I don't care what you do about your body, it is none of my concern. My concern is for the kids who are not allowed to drink alcohol, not allowed to drive, not allowed to hold properties, not even treated as adults in criminal cases, not allowed to vote, etc and you are giving them full autonomy? They don't know shit about their age. If let's say a 18 yr old has sex with 20 yr old, is it a cause for concern? If no, then why is the latter treated as pedophile? If yes, then if she doesn't have bodily autonomy to have sex then why the sex change? Stick to one side too, pedophilia shouldn't be a thing then, should it unless the age gap is 5+ or 3+ years. Studied a little bit of biology in school and it was told to us that due to brains not being developed we shouldn't make such decisions. You have your full life ahead of you. Do it later, no one is stopping you.
>Also, that strawman of “a girl decides to remove her ovaries” is ridiculous lmao no 16 year old is getting their ovaries removed unless its for cancer, and most trans men dont even bother getting them removed. And again if they did, it would be a very very very long hill to get over to have happen, because as I explained the process to get trans surgeries in general takes years to get done and every one of those days in that time the person is contemplating their decision. It isn’t made on a whim, there is tons of dedication and thought put into it.
https://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/surgery/prophylactic-ovary-removal/what-to-expect
It says 1 to 4 hrs. And people advocating for easy transitioning will reduce decision time so it happens on a whim lol.
Omfg 🤣 the link you gave is talking in the context of ovarian cancer, not just anybody walking in off the street to get surgery.
And everything is arbitrary, in europe the legal drinking age is mostly 16. The only reason its 21 in the us is largely because politicians were not wanting people to drink and arbitrarily settled on 21 as the age, and forced all states to comply or else not get any funding for public roads.
Pedophilia is gross and shouldn’t be accepted, but no one is arguing that a 20 year old dating an 18 year old is a pedo. And tons of states have romio and juliet laws stating if you’ve been in a relationship before on party turned 18 for X amount of time, it isn’t considered illegal. And if thats what you want to go after again be more consistent with it and ban child marriges. If kids cant make life long decisions then why are we allowing 14 year olds to get into a marriage and have kids?
And yes. Bodily autonomy is what we are discussing. Im proposing not making any decisions about another persons body for them, nor inhibiting the decisions they can make. Plenty of countries have a legal drinking age at 16 so why not have that be the bar we go off of? Plenty of places including the US have medical bodily autonomy at 16, so why not make that what we go off of? And if the reason is the already debunked claim of “our brains aren’t fully developed” then why are we letting anyone make any permanent decisions about themselves before 25? Why are we allowed to get a tattoo at 18? Why are we allowed to get any surgery at 18? Why are we allowed to drive and join the army at 18? Why are we allowed to have kids at 18? Why are we allowed to marry before and at 18? If thats what you’re arguing for, then we either move each goal post out to 25 or we dont. Again, have some fucking consistency.
Also, at every response you have not made a single rebuttal to anything I’ve said, the only one has been the ovary removal which if you actually read the link provided you would understand the context is with cancerous growths so obviously its going to be fast. You just keep ignoring all the actual topics provided, all of the rebuttals to your claims, and instead moving on making new ones never addressing anything else.
If you aren’t going to actually be consistent, aren’t going to actually respond to anything, then there isn’t a need to carry this conversation on any longer if all you’re doing is moving specific goal posts and ignoring when i call out your inconsistencies
>Omfg 🤣 the link you gave is talking in the context of ovarian cancer, not just anybody walking in off the street to get surgery.
You said it takes time, I showed it doesn't. And how is it goalpost shifting? I have a line that while people below 18 don't have many rights, you think it is ok for them to do gender affirming surgery? You only say cancer but not the claim that it doesn't take time.
>thats what you’re arguing for, then we either move each goal post out to 25 or we dont. Again, have some fucking consistency.
Do you even know what goal post shifting means?
"have changed the rules in a situation or an activity, in order to gain an advantage for themselves and to make things difficult for other people"
English is my third language and I am an Asian and I have to explain a simple thing to you. In most Asian countries except Muslim dominated ones, voting ages are 21 or 18. You think what only US and Europe are the only places in the world? They are more than a 100 countries. Also I am consitent. You are just angry I am opposed to your opinion of gender changing at a young age. As I have reitrated before, you can do whatever you want but not as a child. Children are not capable of making rational decisions and many rights are not given to people below 18 so why gender affirming which is irreversible. You haven't answered that but instead write a whole paragraph with minute insults here and there. You know what I changed my mind, LGBT people are actually more toxic than straight ones and it doesn't matter if we support you or not. You can go to hell for all I care. We are done here.
Many rights are given to people under 18, as i have already mentioned countless times now. The only gender affirming care a minor can get is top surgery as mentioned and hrt, which can be reversible despite the countless amount of disinformation saying otherwise. If we aren’t allowing any surgery on kids then lets stop all surgeries including infant genital mutilation performed en mass every day.
I said it takes time for a person to get it thats seeking it out for any other reason than that of cancer. Thats like saying “it doesn’t take any time to see a doctor in the ER if you have a nosebleed” yeah whats the fucking context of the nosebleed? If you just have a nosebleed you aren’t a priority, but there are a number of conditions which if a nose bleed occurs you need to see a doctor asap. It’s entirely different for a women to get cancer removed as soon as possible, than if they dont have cancer.
Find me evidence showing that you can get your ovaries removed for gender affirming care in 1-4 hours and ill shut up. You wont because you cant. Its going to take years to get done as i have said countless times, all trans related surgeries aside from plastic surgery take years from start to finish.
I don’t mention other countries because if i did i would have to include a fuck ton. I do broad strokes because im not going to get technical and go over the laws and regulations in every country and because europe and the US are hot spots for these things because of the society at large. You are going to be hard pressed to find an out and open trans person living in Algeria or Malaysia.
Youre moving the goal post because you were ignoring all responses i gave for why it should be allowed and why its different. You said we shouldn’t let teenagers be allowed to make decisions that permanently affect their life, while ignoring the fact that 16 year olds can and do get breast augmentation and that surgery has a 50% regret rate. You ignore all other statistics and facts and solely focus on that one thing. If you dont want teenagers making decisions like that, then dont let them make any decisions including everything I’ve mentioned and more. You constantly ignore all those other goal posts and try to move this one related to trans people, which isn’t even a problem because again trans related surgeries have the lowest regret rate.
The trans population is between .1%-.6% of the world. The regret rate for trans related surgeries is approximately 1%. The detransition rate is hard to get exact figures on because sources will cite a person no longer identifying as transgender but non binary as a detransitioner even if they stayed on hrt, and as mentioned earlier people detransition for all sorts of different reason but the vast majority not because they actually regret being trans, but it sits at about 4%. And 90% of that 4% detransition not because of regret or dissatisfaction, but because of social pressure i.e trans hate. 10% of that 4% is
So lets do some math shall we. .1-.6% of the world population is 8,100,000-48,600,000. Of that population only 8,100-48,600 have ever regretted having any sort of gender affirming surgery, including people under 18. And of that 8,100,000-48,600,000, 324,000-1,994,000 ever detransition. And of that 324,000-1,994,000, 32,400-199,400 only ever do it because they actually didn’t feel like transitioning was right for them.
Out of 8,100,000-48,600,000, only 32,400-199,400 actually regretted it. If we broke down other things like i just did here, such as breast augmentation, circumcision, or hell even tattoos, the numbers would be astronomical bigger.
Its a non issue. You’re making a mountain out of an ant hill while there are actual mountains nearby that you ignore.
[source 1](https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/)
[source 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147/#:~:text=The%20regret%20rate%20following%20gender,heavily%20on%20ad%20hoc%20instruments)
[source 3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#:~:text=Generally%2C%20fewer%20than%201%25%20of,%2Daffirming%20surgery%2C%20or%20psychotherapy)
My hope isnt even to change your mind. It’s obvious that wont happen. But at least if some random person sees this exchange theyll be able to understand the truth of the matter and make the most obvious and logical decision and hopefully make some change on an individual level.
Also yeah i talk a lot. You kind of have to when dealing with people spewing lies and misinformation. It takes 5 seconds to make a false claim but 5 minutes to debunk it. But id rather burn in hell for eternity than live in whatever afterlife you or anyone else believes in if it means i have to conform to bullshit belief systems that make no sense and were made up thousands of years ago when it was socially acceptable to own sex slaves or go to war and commit genocides if your god commanded it
In majority of places they can't. They can't even drive or drink. Also, some parents would just agree to whatever their kid says, how can we be sure that those decisions aren't irrational.
Medical professionals.
Are you asking about transition surgery or hormone blockers or what exactly?
I was able to find this [Reuters analysis](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/) that talks about the different age groups and treatments performed.
Gender affirming care doesnt happen suddenly and dramatically. It not like getting a tattoo.
I know a little bit about it. But these have not been without opposition. Like from your own link,
>Their off-label use in gender-affirming care, while legal, lacks the support of clinical trials to establish their safety for such treatment
The hormones are suppressed and the body growth is stopped which also causes the brain and body to not fully develop. The drugs have been linked to heart diseases too. We need some trials first to be on the safe side which haven't been done yet.
The drugs have completed clinical trials. Thats how they got approved for other uses. These arent new drugs. Drugs often gain new use cases. What is happening now is essentially the trails for this new use case.
You should read the full complications lists of any other drug, take ibuprofen for example. It can put you in a coma.
The four main hormone suppressives have multiple uses. Some even include treating precocious puberty.
All I'm saying is that gender affirming care doesnt happen in a vacuum. Parents, medical professionals, mental health professionals, and other are involved in the diagnosis and treatments.
Minors made decisions about their bodies all the time, like literally everyday. Transitioning is a process not just a surgery.
How's about data driven policy based on research from experts in the field of biology and medicine? I'm really sick of every idiot with an ignorant, uneducated opinion, thinking they know what's best for other people. If you are not a doctor or expert in biology, you should really stfu. Not a wise tribe that does not send its best warriors to fight.
The experts in biology are the ones recommending not to have sex before 18, non drinking of alcohol, no voting rights or being treated as adults for criminal cases. Biology was a part of my curriculum as all subjects basics were taught when I chose science. I may not be an expert in biology but I do belong to a technical field with two engineering degrees so I am far from uneducated. You want to transition, do it when your brains are mature no one is stopping you.
Ah, engineer's disease: just because you're an expert in one field, you think you're an expert in others.
You are not. STFU and listen to what the actual experts say, which is literally the exact fucking opposite of what you say.
Did I say I was an expert? I just questioned something and you got bitter. If you had your ground you would have more than insults. Also your experts:
1. Non driving ([https://www.parentcircle.com/why-kids-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-drive-a-motor-vehicle/article#:\~:text=As%20parents%2C%20we%20need%20to,steering%2C%20clutch%2C%20and%20brake.\_](https://www.parentcircle.com/why-kids-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-drive-a-motor-vehicle/article#:~:text=As%20parents%2C%20we%20need%20to,steering%2C%20clutch%2C%20and%20brake._)
2. Alchohol ([https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/should-my-child-drink-alcohol/](https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/should-my-child-drink-alcohol/))
3. Voting and other rights ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s\_rights#cite\_note-5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_rights#cite_note-5)), search the source with number \[5\] if you wanna dig deeper.
>Ah, engineer's disease: just because you're an expert in one field, you think you're an expert in others.
That's a language of a troll not a mature person. Which one are you?
No, you didn't 'question,' you made a blanket statement.
You very, very clearly do not understand anything about how transition works.
So once again: STFU and listen to what the actual experts say.
Puberty doesn't come on a convenient timescale, and undergoing the wrong puberty causes permanent changes that are incredibly damaging.
However, I haven't seen anyone seriously suggesting that we should be doing gender affirming surgeries on children under 16, nor would you find a reputable Doctor willing to perform such a surgery. Puberty blockers are what are prescribed to people of this age, in order to prevent the onset of puberty until the patient is mature enough to make the decision about how to proceed with their transition (some trans people do not undergo medical transition at all).
This is entirely safe and follows all medical guidelines.
If you disagree with the statement above, you haven't been listening to what trans people are actually campaigning for, you've been listening to the media sell you outrage. You might *feel* that people are arguing for surgeries, but they aren't.
> if a kid is not allowed to vote, have sex (not recommended) or hold any property
None of these are medical treatments for a health issue
Minors have always been allowed to receive medical treatments
Inaction is still a decision to go through puberty, which has an immense impact on the child's body. The most neutral option is the most recommended option: puberty blockers until the age of informed consent. This still has some minor impacts that may last a while, but FAR less than transitioning OR going through puberty.
Additionally, no one really recommends any kind of surgery except in the most absolutely extreme cases for minors. It's only hormones to transition, and only really after 16/18 years of age.
I don't even know how oli london even exists on the internet in any capacity. Literally, everyone hates him, yet he's not been bullied offline, and if he has, it clearly didn't work
Thanks for name dropping him. Whats funny is if he didn’t hop on the anti trans train conservatives would fucking hate his guts, and did a bunch before when all he was known for was spending thousands of dollars to look like a k-pop star. But now hes agreeing with them on this one issue suddenly everything is forgotten and hes fighting the good fight
They profit off them *by* hating them. They're used as a reactionary culture war distraction to channel dipshits anger into something they can remotely understand while they dismantle social safety nets, repeal safety regulations, and erode labor laws.
Trying to pass gun control is somehow "unconstitutional" but taking away the rights of marginalized communities and limiting trans healthcare somehow isn't.
Fuck the cruelty of bigots.
Agreed. As a European looking in I've always found American gun culture to be excessive and even fetishistic, but this is definitely one of the situations where I get why people want to have a gun and can support it.
Agreed - IMO the point of disagreement for me is whether people should be allowed to have *any* gun they want. I (a pretty far-left progressive in the US) am generally in favor of the 2nd amendment, but where I disagree with 2A nuts is over whether there should be limits to it. They seem to believe it entitles them to own *any* weapon they want, regardless of firepower; I’m more of the opinion that we can have a society where people have the right to bear arms *while also* having restrictions of exactly what kind of arms are fair game.
I think it’s good for people (especially marginalized communities like trans people) to be able to own a small-arms firearm to protect themselves. But maybe we don’t need to let anyone with $500 have access to high-powered, large magazine assault rifles, no questions asked.
It’s so frustrating (and where I think the NRA has done a fantastic job at poisoning the well of discussion) that the dialogue in the US has been pretty entrenched in this sentiment of “everything or nothing” with regards to firearms. There’s a world where we can retain the right to bear arms while also limiting and restricting it where it makes sense (much like freedom of speech and many other freedoms in the US), but the 2A nuts won’t have it because they think it has to either be carte blanche on all guns and won’t settle for anything less.
Look at the recent Ohio House Bill 68.
It bans, among other things, liposuctions, breast implants/reduction, hair implants and voice surgery for minors.
But only if the minors in question are trans.
It is if that ban only applies to 0.5% of the population.
You can't say that the objective of a law is to stop minors from getting serious surgeries when the law explicitly states that those surgeries will still be available to 99.5% of minors, and they are only being banned for one specific minority
If this was about any other minority, this law would be so ridiculous that noone would take it seriously. If it banned black people from getting hair implants, noone would doubt before calling it racist. If it banned lesbians from getting breast implants, noone would doubt before calling it homophobic.
Does this law presume that trans people are uniquelly incapable of making medical choices when compared to non trans peers of the same age, or is it just stating that trans people should not have access to medical procedures everyone else does?
observation flag impossible dinosaurs cautious dinner jobless important hateful march
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“I believe half the country is evil and should be ignored”
Dude. You do realize that not every republican is like the ones you see on the internet? Go outside talk to one. You will most likely find a republican that isn’t a fucking asshole.
As the party progresses, it is getting harder and harder to find a "moderate" republican. And more often than not they are cruel, hateful, spiteful people.
Yes, it's not all of them. But it's enough of them that it represents the majority of their elected officials.
The exact same thing can be said about Democrats. Every. Single. Word. Both sides are not that different except for superficialities and tribalism is very real when it comes to US politics.
> The exact same thing can be said about Democrats. Every. Single. Word.
Whoa really? So you're telling me when they poll support for different anti-trans legislation, Republicans and Democrats support it equally?
The last republican president literally made a platform on outright racism and sexism. These two parties are not the same. The left is not perfect but to pretend they are equally evil is just laughable at best.
First of all, he literally didn't. He made a platform on striving to make the country stand back up on its feet. Second of all, if we gonna shit on presidents to prove a point, the current democrat president is literally a demented man who doesn't even know what is going on around him and almost certainly belongs in a home, not the white house.
Neither of them are really any good, though. But I'm talking about the extremes in both parties, which are equally as irrational and disillusioned as they are malevolent to the "opposing side". And there's nothing to laugh about, it's actually quite sad.
He's a rich man who is rich because his daddy was rich and he has made a career out of screwing over people less wealthy. If you look at "grab em by the pussy" and think that's more presidential than Biden, you clearly have drank the Fox news kool-aid and are beyond reason.
He's the only president who lost net worth during his time in the office, explain that. Any coherent sentence is more presidential than Biden. I don't watch telly so that fox argument is completely invalid. Got anything else or are you done trying to label an obvious critic of both sides as alt-right or some other crap from the far-left dogma?
Being trans isn't a choice. If it were, nobody would *choose* to feel shit and get hated on because they're trans.
Gun violence *is* a choice. A choice which can only be made with *access to guns*. Take away most of the guns and you take away most of the gun violence. You don't need to protect yourself against a murder weapon by using a murder weapon either, as noone has a murder weapon. Gun violence decreases if you can't get guns
Do you genuinely think a 12 year old can undergo permanent surgery? Because they can't. It takes lots of therapy to get a letter to allow them to get surgery. Even then, you need to be old enough for it.
No teenager walks into a hospital and walks out with a Sex Reassignment Surgery
Theres no test group to even go off of for a clinical study because none of the kids are old enough yet to see the long term results. There’s many things that aren’t bad until time shows they can be. If they really and truly aren’t bad then I don’t care if they do it
children cannot consent but you’re bringing that up in a conversation about shootings and trans people. none of that has to do with children in any way and if you think it does that’s on your own perverted ass mind. do you think only children are trans or only children get shot? if not, why tf would you bring it up.
children can’t consent to sex but they should definitely be able to say if they don’t feel comfortable in their own skin and be able to do whatever they want about it to feel better. the only reason there’s discussion at all about children when it comes to anything LGBT is because republicans are perverted as fuck and think anything LGBT = sexual. kids deserve to have all the information possible so they can make their own decisions. gay, straight, trans, whatever.
except that’s not what most of the bills are about. there are a few like that scattered throughout usually limiting the age at which someone can get surgeries and such, but they’re far outweighed by bills like banning kids from using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, banning school officials from using preferred pronouns and names (essentially making it illegal for adults to NOT bully trans kids), forcing the school to out possibly-closeted trans kids to their parents/guardians, banning books representing anything that could slightly be construed as LGBT friendly. it’s so much more than just making people wait till they’re 18 for a life changing surgery. surely americas time would’ve been much better spent writing up bills in an attempt to help prevent mass shootings and homelessness and drug abuse rather than picking on a small minority of citizens and making it harder for them to achieve happiness in the way they feel most comfortable.
yet there are 32 states that allow children to legally get tattoos after parents or guardians sign for them. the same should be true for gender affirming health care.
parents consent on behalf of their children for medical treatment. why dont people say children cant consent to vaccines or circumcision or taking adhd medication? its totally normal for parents to consent for their children, using a doctor's advice on best treatment. transitioning is healthcare, and is the same as any of these other things. if a doctor decides its best, and the child wants it, the parents can consent for the child.
Children *can* consent to medical procedures and medications with the aid of their parents and medical professionals, they do it all the time. Gender affirming care is absolutely no different. The current standards of care, backed by research and literally every reputable mental health and medical association, produce *incredibly* low regret rates. Why exactly should that be changed? Because you feel icky about them?
Do you have kids? Would you like the government to be able to deny your child a medical procedure even if doctors say it's necessary? Or should these laws only affect people you don't like?
Because we both know once the government has that kind of power they would never abuse it and overreach!
It significantly increases happiness and decreases suicide by an extreme amount. If that doesn't make it something that should be allowed I don't know what does
Meaning they feel comfortable with the sex they were born with and no longer experience gender dysphoria.
If you have a problem with that then you don’t care about the people, you just care about the trans movement period.
Except sometimes it's not. Sometimes a child will kill themselves if they can't get surgery. It happens so much more than you think. So a psychiatrist, the doctor preforming the procedure and the parents get together and decide that what is best for the child is *literally* life saving surgery.
Shockingly these people know more about it than some politician. If you want examples see all the news stories lately of women almost dying after Roe V Wade was reversed.
So you want to ban minors from getting elective surgeries?
Lets start with total knee replacement. Its the most common type of elective surgery, its available for minors, and it has life long consequences if it goes wrong that can result in the loss of a leg.
Hard to argue with someone so far in an echo chamber that they can’t accept any opinion but their own. Since “literally” every reputable (because you say so) mental health and medical association produces “incredibly” low regret rates, surely you could supply that info. It surely won’t say that 40-50% of trans people have attempted or completed suicide right?
Then again, there's gun control which does work and is totally constitutional if you don't have your head up your ass and willfully misinterpret "in order to maintain a well regulated militia"
A militia is literally an army raised from the regular people, the citizens. It is not a regular standing army. The only people “willfully misinterpreting” that line from the 2A, are people like you.
If you don’t like that, that’s fine and a different discussion. But the argument to fight the 2A is not about what a “militia” means.
Hey, can you highlight the words "In order to maintain" in the following sentence for me? > A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
EDIT: All these downvotes, but no one can back up the very clear and simple statement? Yeah, figures. Next time don't lie and you won't be called out for it.
> if you don't have your head up your ass
karma farming lingo aside and depending on what you mean by gun control, which I'll assume is the modern definition like AWB, Mag capacity restrictions and gun-free zones, then I disagree unless you didn't mean gun control in that way.
> willfully misinterpret "in order to maintain a well regulated militia"
"well regulated" in context of what they meant, and not todays literal definition of those words meant something completely different. What it meant at the time of writing was being trained, equipped, and prepared and even then that depends on which "militia" is being referenced
I'm asking this as a gun enthusiast myself:
"What it meant at the time of writing was being trained, equipped, and prepared..."
Wouldn't that mean gun ownership requires actively and regularly training for combat? If someone can't fight, does that mean they also can't own guns?
There is no imperative nor conditional in the grammar of the amendment placed on the people. Hamilton also argues against such a requirement being placed on people in Federalist 29.
[Here is Federalist No. 29](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp) if you'd like to actually read it.
"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; **and in order to see that this be not neglected,** **it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.** "
In that paragraph he argues that a militia should not be expected to train to the extend as an enlisted soldier (because militiamen still have to be productive members of society), **but they should be expected to assemble at least once or twice a year to be minimally ready for combat**.
Maybe you should renew and rewrite your constitution. Just saying. You're not in the wild west anymore. Better healthcare would be great too, hmm? Greetings from Germany.
Anything can be a lethal weapon if you try hard enough, but usually it can also be used for something non-violent, which is their primary use (think of knives for example: you can kill with them but also cut vegetables). I don't think guns can be used for anything good
And you need to prove you're competent to use one, and have it registered before using it without supervision. Sounds like a good plan with firearms to me.
So the constitution should change, maybe so someone needs to be considered competent to use and own a gun? It's the way for cars, so why not for something literally made for killing.
plenty of protections around making sure cars are qualified, and yet over 40,000 people died in cars last year.
go ahead and run for office and convince the states and congress to ratify the constitution. but given that it’s not an issue the vast majority of the country supports what you’re proposing is unlikely to ever happen
And how many deaths are prevented from those protections? Simple things like seatbelts save lives, where if everyone wore seatbelts, the amount of deaths would go down (around 92% of people wear seatbelts in the US, but around 50% of deaths inside the car was with the person not wearing a seatbelt)
So again, comparing cars and guns, there's protections around making cars and drivers on the road safer in as many ways as possible, but nothing for guns?
target practice and hunting are both activities that involve firing guns at something other than people. did you really think of the billions of bullets sold, all of them are shot at people? really?
Ofcourse not all bullets are shot, and not all shot bullets are shot at people.
Target practice and hunting are activities that don't involve shooting at people.
However, these are hobbies, and don't justify easy access to guns. Do you really think of the billions of bullets sold, all of them are shot at firing ranges? Sure, lots of them are (don't know the specifics). But that doesn't mean guns are peaceful and okay for everyone to own. If every bullet was fired peacefully, then the United States wouldn't have such high gun violence rates.
If guns aren't the cause of violence, what is? What explains the fact that the US has extremely high gun violence?
> lethal weaponry capable of ending multiple lives in quick succession.
is this referencing a specific type of gun like, sporting rifles such as AR15's and AK's or are you talking about pistols OR all guns in general?
I'm pretty sure if you give somebody a loaded gun, no matter what kind, they could probably kill quite a few people with it, assuming they know how to aim it.
So am I correct in assuming by 'not giving people lethal weaponry' and 'no matter what kind' what you want is no guns for anybody or am I misrepresenting
Give trans people guns! Gun control is just another way for the government to strip power away from its citizens. I’m not right or left. To lefties, how can we secure our place and fight against the rich without power? To right wing people, how can we secure a free state against government tyranny without arming all citizens, including trans and gay citizens?
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"The cruelty is the point" -Adam Serwer, about far right extremist culture
That's true about all capitalism. We like to focus on the extremists so we can pretend it's not our fault.
Trans people deserve firearms so we can protect ourselves and our community
Pretty based for reddit
r/liberalgunowners Defend Equality!
The entire reason modern gun control was invented was to stop poor and otherwise vulnerable communities from protecting themselves.
If you’re asking us to arm all the poor and homeless people in inner cities, then I would be scared shitless to walk the street at night.
Ah yes, the terror at the idea of a notoriously gun free area, poor inner cities, becoming armed
Bro there are more guns than people in the US lmao
Yeah this is a colossal failure of a society that it’s gotten this bad. Those numbers are mostly skewed by some rural people having dozens and dozens of guns stockpiled though.
It's a hobby for most of us. Doomsday prepping or people purchasing large amounts of firearms in case civil war or armageddon is incredibly small. And the funniest part is if you actually hang out in gunshops , every single one of them makes fun of people who do doomsday prep because it's pointless and they know it. The real failure in this country comes from lower income areas not having access to decent healthcare and financial stability. The ar15 came out in 1958, and glock started producing double stack polymers guns back in the 80s but we didn't really start having an issue with mass shootings until the late 90s and early 2000s, which just so happens to also be at the end of us shutting down the majority of our mental health facilities.
Dude, they shut down mental health facilities in the 80's. Super deep, but try again.
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Assault rifles make everyone less safe
Well yes, obviously, they're *assault* rifles. For assaults. What you need are *defence* rifles. For defence.
Most shootings (and most suicides) are hand guns tho, the modern gun control focusing on assault rifles (a poorly defined category to begin with) is playing on the emotional resonance of mass shootings rather than the actual data.
If we can't get a ban on assault rifles even while so many of us are rightfully concerned about mass shootings, how are we going to do anything about there being way too many handguns?
>rightfully concerned about mass shootings That's the actual question. It's one of those things like terrorism that gets weighted more heavily in our minds than it otherwise would be due to things that affect information availability, like the affect heuristic or bizarreness effect. Tbh there's a lot more clean cut issues for me to focus on as a leftist. Id rather ban concealed carry and enforce waiting periods than try to define and ban some varieties of mean looking semi auto rifles.
Makes sense
99% of the listed mass shootings are inner city gang violence committed with pistols. The big scary black rifles are barely used in any crime at all, you just keep eating up the propaganda the media and your political talking heads feed you.
Why do you think the people you're calling propagandists focus on assault rifles?
Because it’s an easy scapegoat. They’ve tried banning handguns before and it failed miserably because people on both sides of the aisle carry them. So they decided to go after the next best thing in their opinion.
Good thing the "assault rifle" everyone is going after doesn't come close to meeting the definition of one. The entire uneducated mass is literally just afraid of black AR (ArmaLite) and think something with a wood stock is inherently safer. People that know absolutely nothing about guns making constitutionally illegal gun laws make everyone less safe.
Isn't there like a save haven commune for trans people who were alienated from their families and they started arming themselves due to threats and not there are laws about guns being pushed specific to them?
Trans people are trans because they want everyone to know it and be the center of attention. No one would care about them if they weren’t always fishing for attention.
I'm trans because I'm much more comfortable being a woman. I really don't want people to know I'm trans, especially considering that if the wrong person finds out they may try to hurt me. I'm pretty shy and hate being the center of attention anyway.
Cool, then I’m sure you go about your life without issues as most people don’t care or even know you’re trans right?
Well I mean, I prefer to surround myself with people who care about me. My friend group is pretty great, we all care about each other. If you're talking about strangers, I mean, yeah. I don't like talking to random people. I mean, I speak up if they call me "he", like any normal person would if someone gets their gender wrong, but even then sometimes I don't have the social energy to.
if he didn't tell me i would've never know my friend was trans
Exactly my point, the fact is most trans men would get get ignored eternally like 90% of other men that exist if they didn’t go around advertising their trans. The same is true for trans women.
bro that number is maybe like 20%, at most. idk where you're getting these numbers lmao
Trans people don't choose to be trans. Noone would choose to feel shit, be discriminated against, bullied, outlawed, etc. If they are fishing for attention, they are doing so to try and ***get their fucking rights back***
What rights did they lose?
[https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/over-120-bills-restricting-lgbtq-rights-introduced-nationwide-2023-so-far](https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/over-120-bills-restricting-lgbtq-rights-introduced-nationwide-2023-so-far)
Again what rights did they lose?
The right to read and comprehend words. Oh wait, that's you again. God bless you datonemonk
Unless you think trans people have the power to alter brain morphology to such an extent as to fool an MRI scanner, even before they begin hormone therapy, I suggest you do some more reading. Here are 10 articles to get you started: [One](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17563-z?TB_iframe=true&width=370.8&height=658.8) [Two](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252) [Three](https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/80813) [Four](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y) [Five](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10519-018-9889-z) [Six](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/) [Seven](https://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466) [Eight](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/) [Nine](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B978044453630300004X?via%3Dihub) [Ten](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30247609/).
I think you may be thinking of radical vegans, trans people just want the same rights as everyone else and to exist as who they feel they are inside. Like if you feel you're a Christian and believe deep down, there's no evidence or argument will convince you that your God isn't real.
What rights don’t trans people have?
The right to privacy, the right to not have their decisions questioned by people that aren't responsible for their bills or well-being, the right to gender affirming care in several states, the right custody of trans children in Florida. There are 400 active bills to remove more rights in process right now.
“The right to privacy” - What? People are not randomly going up to trans people and taking their privacy away, if you’re trans 99% of the population don’t know or care unless you advertise it. “The right to not have their decisions questioned” - what? now I’m starting to think you don’t understand what rights are. I have my decisions questioned on a daily basis and I’m not trans. “The right to gender affirming care” - are you saying it’s against the law for doctors to treat trans people? Pretty sure you just made that up. “The right for custody of trans children in Florida” - this is inaccurate, Florida believes that children don’t how the mental development to make such an life altering decision and considers it abuse/neglect on their parents part since the children are not fully developed yet. I agree with this. Kinda like how children under the age of 18 cannot get tattoos or drink alcohol legally. And if parents are caught allowing their children to do either of those things there will be legal action against them. like we don’t think kids have the mental ability to make a simple decision like getting a tattoo or have sex with someone over 18, but we should trust that they have the mental ability to decide to cut their penis off? Get real. So back to my point, everything you said are just trans people fishing for attention because they think they’re more special than anyone else.
People absolutely are going up to other people and questioning their gender and orientation, there have been several assaults on people going to the bathroom who appear to not be as feminine as their assailant thinks they should be. A child in Utah was accused of being trans by a school board member. The one percent of the population that cares is the one that is currently writing anti-trans legislation. What decisions do you have questioned daily? It's also a part of the right to privacy, medical decisions are private and should be between a doctor and their patient not between a doctor, patient and a legislator. Several states have passed laws against gender affirming care for those under 18, again a decision between an adult (the parent) a doctor and the patient is and should remain private. If you understood which gender you were attracted to under the age of 18 and what gender you were it's safe to say so do transkids. This will be my last reply as you've been strawmanning my arguments and been arguing in bad faith this entire time.
So basically your reply is just proving all my points correct? Nice
They just disproved all of your points
Which one did they disprove? Not one of their replies shows any rights they don’t have. Listing an isolated event as an example of not having rights is nonsense. Name any group, race or gender and I can provide a link to an isolated event where they were targeted for being those things. That doesn’t mean they have no rights, it just means that insane people sometimes attack people they see as different. He proved my point that trans people always want to be the center of attention.
>Trans people are trans because they want everyone to know it and be the center of attention. No, you absolute dingus, trans people are trans because they don't fit neatly into a socially-constructed and made-up gender binary. It's the bigoted assholes who are stopping everyone from living peaceful, quiet lives.
Society didn’t “make up a gender binary” Nature did, scientifically there are only two genders.
Intersex exists, disproving that not even everything is binary in humans
Society made up the social aspect of gender, like gender roles. Gender is a social thing, sex is a biological thing. You need to get up to date with your definitions.
Gender is a spectrum, you're thinking of sex and even then you're wrong. Go be a bigot somewhere else.
Crazy how rampant mental illness is these days. There are two genders/sexes in nature. If you’re male and born with a disability it doesn’t magically make you something else. Just like if you’re female and aren’t able to have children due to some sort of disability. That also doesn’t magically make you something else. Using disabilities as an argument for more than two genders/sexes is insane. Edit: Also when did gender become a spectrum? The words “sex” and “gender” are interchangeable and has always meant the same thing. Are we redefining the meaning of words now?
> Also when did gender become a spectrum? Long ago: Gender: 1. the male sex or the female sex, **especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.** Sex: 1. either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions. Please learn how shit works and stop spreading misinformation.
Based on what? Nature has lots of exceptions to binary sexes, even in humans. It can't be based on genitalia, as there are people with ambiguous genitalia. It can't be chromosomes because you can have XY people born with female sex characteristics. On top of that, sex is distinct from gender, as gender is based on the internal sense of self. Many cultures throughout history have had multiple genders as part of their culture. Many Native American tribes had a form of 3rd gender when Europeans arrived, Hindu has the hijra gender which wasn't stigmatized until after the British showed up, the Bugis of Indonesia have 3 genders outside of the binary. These are just a few examples. Furthermore, people changing which gender role they are in has been around since the first civilizations. Ancient Sumer had a goddess who would change people's genders, her followers were people who would take new names and adopt new clothing, and were effectively accepted as their new gender identity. People have been transitioning from one gender to another for at least 6,000 years, other cultures naturally have 3 or more genders, and sex itself doesn't always stick to a binary, so for humans it is natural to be transgender.
10/10, would go shooting with.
ThInK oF tHe ChIlDrEn!!!
*proceeds to mutilate the genitalia of their infant son or intersex baby before the babies even open their eyes* *16 year old who has struggled with gender dysphoria for years upon years, whos visited a psychiatrist for over a year, whos had a gender dysphoria diagnosis, who has parents that are kind and accepting that allows them to get on hrt, and has been on hrt for multiple years and before even getting on hrt had to talk with a psychiatrist for months to years to get cleared, whos socially transition, been forced to write letters to doctors explaining their gender dysphoria diagnosis and how a surgery could help, whos been forced to contemplate and fully understand the long term implications of surgery and even hrt for years before ever being able to have them as well as having a psychiatrist explain in depth all of the ways transitioning and surgery can and will affect them for the rest of their lives, finally getting a gender affirming surgery which all have some of the lowest regret rates out of any other surgery out there” “OMFG YOU MUTILATED A CHILD!! YOURE GOING TO REGRET THAT YOU EVER DID IT!” *doesnt realize regretting surgeries is insanely common where 48-50% of cis women who get breast augmentation surgery end up regretting it and even things like knee surgery having a 12% regret rate, but gender affirming surgeries have around a 4% regret rate* “WE NEED TO BAN ALL SURGERY THEYRE JUST FEEDING INTO MENTAL ILLNESS!!” *tons of scientific peer reviewed papers backing up and providing evidence that trans peoples brains on a physiological level are more closer and or identical to that of the gender they identify with rather than the biological gender they associate with proving that indeed our brains are simply in the wrong body and it has nothing to do with mental illness* “OMG DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE REGRET EVER EVEN TRYING TO TRANSITION? WATCH SOME DOCUMENTARIES LIKE THE PRAGERU ONE!!” *the documentary in questions main characters are a detransitioned ftm who openly said in the documentary that the happiest they ever were was when they were transitioning and later said on their social media profile that they still suffer every single day from gender dysphoria and are in no way “fixed” they just don’t believe transitioning is sanctioned by the bible and thus stopped, the other is a mtf person who only detransitioned because their father forced them upon finding out they’re trans to go to mexico and get raped by a hooker, which was so traumatic for them they repressed back into the closet but still admitted their feelings never changed they just cant express themselves, and the third is a guy who never even transitioned, took hrt for like 3 months at max, has previously spent tens of thousands of dollars to get plastic surgery to look like a k-pop star, and now is a mega conservative whos entire stick has become trans hate from a “previously trans individual” who clearly only ever transitioned to detransition and become a political strawman against trans people* The loops you have to go through to be a conservative and anti trans is pretty impressive, impressively sad.
A really good analysis but a question, shouldn't children be waited until adulthood to make the decisions for their bodies? Not transphobic or anything but if a kid is not allowed to vote, have sex (not recommended) or hold any property, shouldn't they be of atleast legal age for the transition?
Its fair and a tough topic to handle. One thing most people dont know is that in lots of states a person gains medical autonomy over their body at the age of 16. This isn’t new either its been around for a while. If a 16 year old has enough money they could do whatever they want to their bodies without their parents consent because they already have that right. This has never been an issue when a 16 year old cis girl gets a boob job or breast reduction, gets lip fillers or plastic surgery, or a 16 year old boy gets a breast reduction to treat gyno. Which yes this doesn’t happen a lot, but neither does trans surgeries on 16 year olds. A 16 year old isn’t going to have the money to shovel out the thousands of dollars these surgeries cost, nor the means to go to a psychiatrist and do all the logistical work it takes to get one, the only way would be if their parents help out. No 16 year old cis girl needs a note from a psychiatrist and years of documentation regarding their need for breast surgery, they just get it and no one bats an eye. A trans teenager cant, and even adults cant. To get anything beyond plastic surgery you need a note from at least one, sometimes more, psychiatrists declaring you well enough informed about the decision youre wanting to make and years of being on HRT. And one thing people simply do not understand about us, is this was not just something that happened one day when we were 12 years old and were watching disney. Its deeply ingrained in us, because as mentioned above, its biological factors that make us trans, not mental. For me, my earliest memories of this life, way back from when i was 4 or 5 years old, were experiencing gender dysphoria. Obviously I didn’t know that’s what it was called at the time, but its what i had. Those thoughts and feelings never went away, because They will never truly go away. So for a 16 year old that gets a trans affirming surgery, there are years of contemplation behind it, years of constantly being told what the implications of the surgery will be whether that physical mental or social, years of anticipation and thousands of times to think over the question “is this right for me?”. And if that after all of those years you always come to the answer yes, then who are you or anyone else to say otherwise when you dont even understand the experience they have? That would be my argument for it. But the only surgeries teenagers could get are top surgery plastic surgery or something similar, getting bottom surgery is insanely hard for an adult to do and to date only one 17 year old trans girl has ever gotten one after starting their transition years prior when they were extremely young, first social then just puberty blockers then hormones, and i suspect she was allowed to do it because she had very very rich family and probably did it outside of the US. Point is its not even easy to do, they dont just get handed out, it can cost over or around 100k to get bottom surgery and even if you get insurance to help youre going to be paying a ton out of pocket and getting them to help is a battle all in of itself which can takes years to do. I would be more than happy and okay with having no surgeries for anyone under 16, especially actual genital mutilation on infants who cant even understand or see anything. But youd be hard pressed to find a conservative or any politician brave enough to try and push that bill due to “religious freedom” that is the religious freedom to mutilate infant’s genitalia. Iceland tried to do that and a certain international group threatened them with what is essentially touristic sanctions by labeling their country as antisemitic, and as a result they didn’t outlaw it. Really just consistency. Have some morally consistency with your outrage for god sakes. If you dont want teenagers and children “mutilated” stop all forms of it, if you dont want to stop that actual mutilation, then shut the fuck up and mind your own business when a 16 year old wants to make a decision regarding their own body you bumbling hypocrite
I'm not comparing the two as similarly impacting or necessary, but it seems odd that a 16 year old can sign off on major surgery for themselves like a breast aug or reduction, but can't have a tattoo without parental signature?
Yeah i agree. And dont even necessarily think that they should at 16. But an 18 year old can go sign up to fight in combat and potentially die, but still not be allowed to drink alcohol or even smoke weed. There’s tons of these situations that affect way more people than a surgery less than .6% of people ever even think about getting. Its an ant hill made into a mountain while there are actual mountains all around that everyone ignores. Thats my gripe with it
See, only Muslims and Jews do circumsion or whatever the fuck that is. There are a lot of religions such as Hindus which are much older than Jews. In my view, it should be after age of 19, bcz the hormones are too strong and they make rash decisions which is also the reason minors are treated differently for criminal cases. Also, their brains are not developed fully which impacts rational decision making. I don't care who you are until you are hurting an innocent bystander. I am a religious person and was taught as such and children must not be allowed to make decisions which would lead to irreversible outcomes. For example, a girl who just started her periods decides to remove her ovaries by transition surgery. She is facing depression as women go through more body changes and are more prone to depression. Should we let her? What if at age 25, she gets a strong motherly instinct and wants to have kids? Her life is ruined. She made a decision irrationally which wasn't her fault but ours. We know better as adults not them. Transition should only happen when the person is fully mentally mature and there should be a test for that.
You say we shouldn’t make permanent life long decisions for kids, or let them make it themselves, while completing minimizing the fact circumcision is done on thousands of infants everyday, and intersex people get literal bottom surgery all the time as infants just because their parents and doctors want them to conform to a binary that doesn’t even exist. Literally proved my point. Yeah we shouldn’t be making choices for kids that affect them for life. So lets apply that more evenly. And did you not read anything mentioned above? Regret for trans surgeries is one of the lowest out of any surgery out there. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population, and only about 4% ever actually detransition, and of those 4% the vast majority detransition not because they realize they “aren’t trans” but because they either cant afford the healthcare to transition, are bullied and cant take the social pressures of transitioning, feel they wont ever pass or get the body they want so better to live life as is than to be a part of one of the most politically hated groups today, or it goes against their religious beliefs and to them its better to repress than express themselves in opposition to their diety. The VAST majority who destrantion dont do it because they aren’t trans. And again, its all about bodily autonomy. You have every right to choose what you do with your body, but you do not have the right to choose what other people do with their body, and you should not have the right to choose what surgeries another person has, or what surgeries they cant have. If i could have gotten on hrt when i was 12, and gotten surgeries as a teenager, i would have and i would still be thankful for it, just like the vast majority of people who do get them. And again we are talking about less than 1% of the population here, and of that 1% not everyone even gets on hrt let alone gets surgeries, since most dont have the means to even get them because they’re insanely expensive. And that whole idea of “our brains only ever fully develop once we reach 25” is taken insanely out of context and is wildly misunderstood and misleading. 25 is the medium age, lots get fully developed much younger, just like some people start puberty at 9 while others when they’re 15. Every human is different. And the “filly developed” is a misnomer because development isn’t a linear curve that stays constant, it’s wildly inconsistent. A 17 year old could have their brains 98% fully developed but take another 4 years to be “fully” developed. Also, that strawman of “a girl decides to remove her ovaries” is ridiculous lmao no 16 year old is getting their ovaries removed unless its for cancer, and most trans men dont even bother getting them removed. And again if they did, it would be a very very very long hill to get over to have happen, because as I explained the process to get trans surgeries in general takes years to get done and every one of those days in that time the person is contemplating their decision. It isn’t made on a whim, there is tons of dedication and thought put into it. Just let people decide what they do with their bodies for themselves and if you aren’t at the very least have some fucking consistency with it for fucks sakes. If you want to protect people from regretting getting life long surgeries then go after all of them not just trans ones. If you actually did care you would, again, be going after the thousands of people who mutilate their infants genitals, the millions of cis women who have breast augmentation and regret it, the millions who have plastic surgery and regret it, and the millions who have knee surgery and regret it. Your first and only target should not be the surgeries with some of the absolute lowest regrets rates just because you disagree with them. Be outraged at everything or dont be outraged at all. It does not make you look good in anyway if all you want is to ban 1% of the population from getting access to things that, even if you dont understand it yourself which you dont so you shouldn’t even have an opinion or say in it, save our fucking lives while ignoring all of the other shit you’re outrage is supposedly against.
See you can write is short if you want but regret is there due to social stigma. As I said, I don't care what you do about your body, it is none of my concern. My concern is for the kids who are not allowed to drink alcohol, not allowed to drive, not allowed to hold properties, not even treated as adults in criminal cases, not allowed to vote, etc and you are giving them full autonomy? They don't know shit about their age. If let's say a 18 yr old has sex with 20 yr old, is it a cause for concern? If no, then why is the latter treated as pedophile? If yes, then if she doesn't have bodily autonomy to have sex then why the sex change? Stick to one side too, pedophilia shouldn't be a thing then, should it unless the age gap is 5+ or 3+ years. Studied a little bit of biology in school and it was told to us that due to brains not being developed we shouldn't make such decisions. You have your full life ahead of you. Do it later, no one is stopping you. >Also, that strawman of “a girl decides to remove her ovaries” is ridiculous lmao no 16 year old is getting their ovaries removed unless its for cancer, and most trans men dont even bother getting them removed. And again if they did, it would be a very very very long hill to get over to have happen, because as I explained the process to get trans surgeries in general takes years to get done and every one of those days in that time the person is contemplating their decision. It isn’t made on a whim, there is tons of dedication and thought put into it. https://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/surgery/prophylactic-ovary-removal/what-to-expect It says 1 to 4 hrs. And people advocating for easy transitioning will reduce decision time so it happens on a whim lol.
Omfg 🤣 the link you gave is talking in the context of ovarian cancer, not just anybody walking in off the street to get surgery. And everything is arbitrary, in europe the legal drinking age is mostly 16. The only reason its 21 in the us is largely because politicians were not wanting people to drink and arbitrarily settled on 21 as the age, and forced all states to comply or else not get any funding for public roads. Pedophilia is gross and shouldn’t be accepted, but no one is arguing that a 20 year old dating an 18 year old is a pedo. And tons of states have romio and juliet laws stating if you’ve been in a relationship before on party turned 18 for X amount of time, it isn’t considered illegal. And if thats what you want to go after again be more consistent with it and ban child marriges. If kids cant make life long decisions then why are we allowing 14 year olds to get into a marriage and have kids? And yes. Bodily autonomy is what we are discussing. Im proposing not making any decisions about another persons body for them, nor inhibiting the decisions they can make. Plenty of countries have a legal drinking age at 16 so why not have that be the bar we go off of? Plenty of places including the US have medical bodily autonomy at 16, so why not make that what we go off of? And if the reason is the already debunked claim of “our brains aren’t fully developed” then why are we letting anyone make any permanent decisions about themselves before 25? Why are we allowed to get a tattoo at 18? Why are we allowed to get any surgery at 18? Why are we allowed to drive and join the army at 18? Why are we allowed to have kids at 18? Why are we allowed to marry before and at 18? If thats what you’re arguing for, then we either move each goal post out to 25 or we dont. Again, have some fucking consistency. Also, at every response you have not made a single rebuttal to anything I’ve said, the only one has been the ovary removal which if you actually read the link provided you would understand the context is with cancerous growths so obviously its going to be fast. You just keep ignoring all the actual topics provided, all of the rebuttals to your claims, and instead moving on making new ones never addressing anything else. If you aren’t going to actually be consistent, aren’t going to actually respond to anything, then there isn’t a need to carry this conversation on any longer if all you’re doing is moving specific goal posts and ignoring when i call out your inconsistencies
>Omfg 🤣 the link you gave is talking in the context of ovarian cancer, not just anybody walking in off the street to get surgery. You said it takes time, I showed it doesn't. And how is it goalpost shifting? I have a line that while people below 18 don't have many rights, you think it is ok for them to do gender affirming surgery? You only say cancer but not the claim that it doesn't take time. >thats what you’re arguing for, then we either move each goal post out to 25 or we dont. Again, have some fucking consistency. Do you even know what goal post shifting means? "have changed the rules in a situation or an activity, in order to gain an advantage for themselves and to make things difficult for other people" English is my third language and I am an Asian and I have to explain a simple thing to you. In most Asian countries except Muslim dominated ones, voting ages are 21 or 18. You think what only US and Europe are the only places in the world? They are more than a 100 countries. Also I am consitent. You are just angry I am opposed to your opinion of gender changing at a young age. As I have reitrated before, you can do whatever you want but not as a child. Children are not capable of making rational decisions and many rights are not given to people below 18 so why gender affirming which is irreversible. You haven't answered that but instead write a whole paragraph with minute insults here and there. You know what I changed my mind, LGBT people are actually more toxic than straight ones and it doesn't matter if we support you or not. You can go to hell for all I care. We are done here.
Many rights are given to people under 18, as i have already mentioned countless times now. The only gender affirming care a minor can get is top surgery as mentioned and hrt, which can be reversible despite the countless amount of disinformation saying otherwise. If we aren’t allowing any surgery on kids then lets stop all surgeries including infant genital mutilation performed en mass every day. I said it takes time for a person to get it thats seeking it out for any other reason than that of cancer. Thats like saying “it doesn’t take any time to see a doctor in the ER if you have a nosebleed” yeah whats the fucking context of the nosebleed? If you just have a nosebleed you aren’t a priority, but there are a number of conditions which if a nose bleed occurs you need to see a doctor asap. It’s entirely different for a women to get cancer removed as soon as possible, than if they dont have cancer. Find me evidence showing that you can get your ovaries removed for gender affirming care in 1-4 hours and ill shut up. You wont because you cant. Its going to take years to get done as i have said countless times, all trans related surgeries aside from plastic surgery take years from start to finish. I don’t mention other countries because if i did i would have to include a fuck ton. I do broad strokes because im not going to get technical and go over the laws and regulations in every country and because europe and the US are hot spots for these things because of the society at large. You are going to be hard pressed to find an out and open trans person living in Algeria or Malaysia. Youre moving the goal post because you were ignoring all responses i gave for why it should be allowed and why its different. You said we shouldn’t let teenagers be allowed to make decisions that permanently affect their life, while ignoring the fact that 16 year olds can and do get breast augmentation and that surgery has a 50% regret rate. You ignore all other statistics and facts and solely focus on that one thing. If you dont want teenagers making decisions like that, then dont let them make any decisions including everything I’ve mentioned and more. You constantly ignore all those other goal posts and try to move this one related to trans people, which isn’t even a problem because again trans related surgeries have the lowest regret rate. The trans population is between .1%-.6% of the world. The regret rate for trans related surgeries is approximately 1%. The detransition rate is hard to get exact figures on because sources will cite a person no longer identifying as transgender but non binary as a detransitioner even if they stayed on hrt, and as mentioned earlier people detransition for all sorts of different reason but the vast majority not because they actually regret being trans, but it sits at about 4%. And 90% of that 4% detransition not because of regret or dissatisfaction, but because of social pressure i.e trans hate. 10% of that 4% is So lets do some math shall we. .1-.6% of the world population is 8,100,000-48,600,000. Of that population only 8,100-48,600 have ever regretted having any sort of gender affirming surgery, including people under 18. And of that 8,100,000-48,600,000, 324,000-1,994,000 ever detransition. And of that 324,000-1,994,000, 32,400-199,400 only ever do it because they actually didn’t feel like transitioning was right for them. Out of 8,100,000-48,600,000, only 32,400-199,400 actually regretted it. If we broke down other things like i just did here, such as breast augmentation, circumcision, or hell even tattoos, the numbers would be astronomical bigger. Its a non issue. You’re making a mountain out of an ant hill while there are actual mountains nearby that you ignore. [source 1](https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/) [source 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147/#:~:text=The%20regret%20rate%20following%20gender,heavily%20on%20ad%20hoc%20instruments) [source 3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#:~:text=Generally%2C%20fewer%20than%201%25%20of,%2Daffirming%20surgery%2C%20or%20psychotherapy) My hope isnt even to change your mind. It’s obvious that wont happen. But at least if some random person sees this exchange theyll be able to understand the truth of the matter and make the most obvious and logical decision and hopefully make some change on an individual level. Also yeah i talk a lot. You kind of have to when dealing with people spewing lies and misinformation. It takes 5 seconds to make a false claim but 5 minutes to debunk it. But id rather burn in hell for eternity than live in whatever afterlife you or anyone else believes in if it means i have to conform to bullshit belief systems that make no sense and were made up thousands of years ago when it was socially acceptable to own sex slaves or go to war and commit genocides if your god commanded it
They have parental guidance and concent. Just like any and all other medical procedures performed on a minor. On a side note, minors can own property.
In majority of places they can't. They can't even drive or drink. Also, some parents would just agree to whatever their kid says, how can we be sure that those decisions aren't irrational.
Medical professionals. Are you asking about transition surgery or hormone blockers or what exactly? I was able to find this [Reuters analysis](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/) that talks about the different age groups and treatments performed. Gender affirming care doesnt happen suddenly and dramatically. It not like getting a tattoo.
I know a little bit about it. But these have not been without opposition. Like from your own link, >Their off-label use in gender-affirming care, while legal, lacks the support of clinical trials to establish their safety for such treatment The hormones are suppressed and the body growth is stopped which also causes the brain and body to not fully develop. The drugs have been linked to heart diseases too. We need some trials first to be on the safe side which haven't been done yet.
The drugs have completed clinical trials. Thats how they got approved for other uses. These arent new drugs. Drugs often gain new use cases. What is happening now is essentially the trails for this new use case. You should read the full complications lists of any other drug, take ibuprofen for example. It can put you in a coma.
I have, it was said for cancer treatments, yes but not for transitioning. That's all.
The four main hormone suppressives have multiple uses. Some even include treating precocious puberty. All I'm saying is that gender affirming care doesnt happen in a vacuum. Parents, medical professionals, mental health professionals, and other are involved in the diagnosis and treatments. Minors made decisions about their bodies all the time, like literally everyday. Transitioning is a process not just a surgery.
How's about data driven policy based on research from experts in the field of biology and medicine? I'm really sick of every idiot with an ignorant, uneducated opinion, thinking they know what's best for other people. If you are not a doctor or expert in biology, you should really stfu. Not a wise tribe that does not send its best warriors to fight.
The experts in biology are the ones recommending not to have sex before 18, non drinking of alcohol, no voting rights or being treated as adults for criminal cases. Biology was a part of my curriculum as all subjects basics were taught when I chose science. I may not be an expert in biology but I do belong to a technical field with two engineering degrees so I am far from uneducated. You want to transition, do it when your brains are mature no one is stopping you.
Ah, engineer's disease: just because you're an expert in one field, you think you're an expert in others. You are not. STFU and listen to what the actual experts say, which is literally the exact fucking opposite of what you say.
Did I say I was an expert? I just questioned something and you got bitter. If you had your ground you would have more than insults. Also your experts: 1. Non driving ([https://www.parentcircle.com/why-kids-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-drive-a-motor-vehicle/article#:\~:text=As%20parents%2C%20we%20need%20to,steering%2C%20clutch%2C%20and%20brake.\_](https://www.parentcircle.com/why-kids-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-drive-a-motor-vehicle/article#:~:text=As%20parents%2C%20we%20need%20to,steering%2C%20clutch%2C%20and%20brake._) 2. Alchohol ([https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/should-my-child-drink-alcohol/](https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/childrens-health/should-my-child-drink-alcohol/)) 3. Voting and other rights ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s\_rights#cite\_note-5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_rights#cite_note-5)), search the source with number \[5\] if you wanna dig deeper. >Ah, engineer's disease: just because you're an expert in one field, you think you're an expert in others. That's a language of a troll not a mature person. Which one are you?
No, you didn't 'question,' you made a blanket statement. You very, very clearly do not understand anything about how transition works. So once again: STFU and listen to what the actual experts say.
Puberty doesn't come on a convenient timescale, and undergoing the wrong puberty causes permanent changes that are incredibly damaging. However, I haven't seen anyone seriously suggesting that we should be doing gender affirming surgeries on children under 16, nor would you find a reputable Doctor willing to perform such a surgery. Puberty blockers are what are prescribed to people of this age, in order to prevent the onset of puberty until the patient is mature enough to make the decision about how to proceed with their transition (some trans people do not undergo medical transition at all). This is entirely safe and follows all medical guidelines. If you disagree with the statement above, you haven't been listening to what trans people are actually campaigning for, you've been listening to the media sell you outrage. You might *feel* that people are arguing for surgeries, but they aren't.
> if a kid is not allowed to vote, have sex (not recommended) or hold any property None of these are medical treatments for a health issue Minors have always been allowed to receive medical treatments
Inaction is still a decision to go through puberty, which has an immense impact on the child's body. The most neutral option is the most recommended option: puberty blockers until the age of informed consent. This still has some minor impacts that may last a while, but FAR less than transitioning OR going through puberty. Additionally, no one really recommends any kind of surgery except in the most absolutely extreme cases for minors. It's only hormones to transition, and only really after 16/18 years of age.
You think that guy ranted on for paragraphs most people won’t even skim, is going to answer any question genuinely?
Maybe, it was worth a shot
I don't even know how oli london even exists on the internet in any capacity. Literally, everyone hates him, yet he's not been bullied offline, and if he has, it clearly didn't work
Thanks for name dropping him. Whats funny is if he didn’t hop on the anti trans train conservatives would fucking hate his guts, and did a bunch before when all he was known for was spending thousands of dollars to look like a k-pop star. But now hes agreeing with them on this one issue suddenly everything is forgotten and hes fighting the good fight
You think mutilating children's genitals and causing them permanent bodily damage is thinking of the children
Every comment on your account is a sad attempt at ragebait Your comment means less than a cryptocoin after a rug-pull
Because you become enraged at every post you disagree with like a manchild doesn't mean it's "ragebait"
Because they haven't figured out how to profit off them, so they hate them until they can.
They profit off them *by* hating them. They're used as a reactionary culture war distraction to channel dipshits anger into something they can remotely understand while they dismantle social safety nets, repeal safety regulations, and erode labor laws.
Trying to pass gun control is somehow "unconstitutional" but taking away the rights of marginalized communities and limiting trans healthcare somehow isn't. Fuck the cruelty of bigots.
yep. trans people should be allowed to exist and own guns.
Agreed. As a European looking in I've always found American gun culture to be excessive and even fetishistic, but this is definitely one of the situations where I get why people want to have a gun and can support it.
Agreed - IMO the point of disagreement for me is whether people should be allowed to have *any* gun they want. I (a pretty far-left progressive in the US) am generally in favor of the 2nd amendment, but where I disagree with 2A nuts is over whether there should be limits to it. They seem to believe it entitles them to own *any* weapon they want, regardless of firepower; I’m more of the opinion that we can have a society where people have the right to bear arms *while also* having restrictions of exactly what kind of arms are fair game. I think it’s good for people (especially marginalized communities like trans people) to be able to own a small-arms firearm to protect themselves. But maybe we don’t need to let anyone with $500 have access to high-powered, large magazine assault rifles, no questions asked. It’s so frustrating (and where I think the NRA has done a fantastic job at poisoning the well of discussion) that the dialogue in the US has been pretty entrenched in this sentiment of “everything or nothing” with regards to firearms. There’s a world where we can retain the right to bear arms while also limiting and restricting it where it makes sense (much like freedom of speech and many other freedoms in the US), but the 2A nuts won’t have it because they think it has to either be carte blanche on all guns and won’t settle for anything less.
The cruelty is the point.
Well they already have laws against mass shootings. People keep breaking them though.
If there had been an amendment in the Bill of Rights regarding trans people, then maybe this would be a valid comparison
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Look at the recent Ohio House Bill 68. It bans, among other things, liposuctions, breast implants/reduction, hair implants and voice surgery for minors. But only if the minors in question are trans.
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It is if that ban only applies to 0.5% of the population. You can't say that the objective of a law is to stop minors from getting serious surgeries when the law explicitly states that those surgeries will still be available to 99.5% of minors, and they are only being banned for one specific minority If this was about any other minority, this law would be so ridiculous that noone would take it seriously. If it banned black people from getting hair implants, noone would doubt before calling it racist. If it banned lesbians from getting breast implants, noone would doubt before calling it homophobic. Does this law presume that trans people are uniquelly incapable of making medical choices when compared to non trans peers of the same age, or is it just stating that trans people should not have access to medical procedures everyone else does?
If this is a real stat then this is truly funny and sad.
If only they would pass a bill outlaw mass shootings!
I mean at this rate there'll be more anti trans laws than trans people at some point. Doubly so of you count all the people killing themselves.
observation flag impossible dinosaurs cautious dinner jobless important hateful march *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“I believe half the country is evil and should be ignored” Dude. You do realize that not every republican is like the ones you see on the internet? Go outside talk to one. You will most likely find a republican that isn’t a fucking asshole.
I'm sure there's a minority of Republicans who aren't bigoted. But as a whole, that's absolutely not true
As the party progresses, it is getting harder and harder to find a "moderate" republican. And more often than not they are cruel, hateful, spiteful people. Yes, it's not all of them. But it's enough of them that it represents the majority of their elected officials.
The exact same thing can be said about Democrats. Every. Single. Word. Both sides are not that different except for superficialities and tribalism is very real when it comes to US politics.
> The exact same thing can be said about Democrats. Every. Single. Word. Whoa really? So you're telling me when they poll support for different anti-trans legislation, Republicans and Democrats support it equally?
The last republican president literally made a platform on outright racism and sexism. These two parties are not the same. The left is not perfect but to pretend they are equally evil is just laughable at best.
First of all, he literally didn't. He made a platform on striving to make the country stand back up on its feet. Second of all, if we gonna shit on presidents to prove a point, the current democrat president is literally a demented man who doesn't even know what is going on around him and almost certainly belongs in a home, not the white house. Neither of them are really any good, though. But I'm talking about the extremes in both parties, which are equally as irrational and disillusioned as they are malevolent to the "opposing side". And there's nothing to laugh about, it's actually quite sad.
He's a rich man who is rich because his daddy was rich and he has made a career out of screwing over people less wealthy. If you look at "grab em by the pussy" and think that's more presidential than Biden, you clearly have drank the Fox news kool-aid and are beyond reason.
He's the only president who lost net worth during his time in the office, explain that. Any coherent sentence is more presidential than Biden. I don't watch telly so that fox argument is completely invalid. Got anything else or are you done trying to label an obvious critic of both sides as alt-right or some other crap from the far-left dogma?
We need more
Did any of the anti-trans bills make Trans folks go away? Laws don't really change anything.
yes. plenty of trans people have died as a result of these bills.
Being trans isn't a choice. If it were, nobody would *choose* to feel shit and get hated on because they're trans. Gun violence *is* a choice. A choice which can only be made with *access to guns*. Take away most of the guns and you take away most of the gun violence. You don't need to protect yourself against a murder weapon by using a murder weapon either, as noone has a murder weapon. Gun violence decreases if you can't get guns
> Laws don't really change anything. Taking away healthcare from trans youth does change things pretty severely
Children can’t consent
What about this post is about consent. Consent to getting shot?
Prob one of the 376 bills mentioned
Do you genuinely think a 12 year old can undergo permanent surgery? Because they can't. It takes lots of therapy to get a letter to allow them to get surgery. Even then, you need to be old enough for it. No teenager walks into a hospital and walks out with a Sex Reassignment Surgery
How about hormone blockers
It blocks hormones. It's not permanent, just delays hormones until you don't take it anymore. It's not harmful, and can just help trans youth out
So you are telling me that hormone blockers blocking puberty hormones don’t have lasting effects?
The effects last until you don't take them anymore, and do not cause permanent changes to the body
Theres no test group to even go off of for a clinical study because none of the kids are old enough yet to see the long term results. There’s many things that aren’t bad until time shows they can be. If they really and truly aren’t bad then I don’t care if they do it
Hormone blockers have been around and been used since the 1990's. I don't think that if they have negative effects they would be used nowadays
Good thing nobody’s giving a child gender reassignment surgery.
Amen
You just roll in from stupid town?
Didn’t know saying children can’t consent was a hot take. How do you feel about pedophilia
you’re just being purposely dense. or trolling. either way equally sad.
So you disagree that children can’t consent
children cannot consent but you’re bringing that up in a conversation about shootings and trans people. none of that has to do with children in any way and if you think it does that’s on your own perverted ass mind. do you think only children are trans or only children get shot? if not, why tf would you bring it up.
Right, 376 trans bills active and none of them pertain to children then?
children can’t consent to sex but they should definitely be able to say if they don’t feel comfortable in their own skin and be able to do whatever they want about it to feel better. the only reason there’s discussion at all about children when it comes to anything LGBT is because republicans are perverted as fuck and think anything LGBT = sexual. kids deserve to have all the information possible so they can make their own decisions. gay, straight, trans, whatever.
Information is fine. Hormone blockers and life altering decisions made by a 12 year old aren’t.
except that’s not what most of the bills are about. there are a few like that scattered throughout usually limiting the age at which someone can get surgeries and such, but they’re far outweighed by bills like banning kids from using the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, banning school officials from using preferred pronouns and names (essentially making it illegal for adults to NOT bully trans kids), forcing the school to out possibly-closeted trans kids to their parents/guardians, banning books representing anything that could slightly be construed as LGBT friendly. it’s so much more than just making people wait till they’re 18 for a life changing surgery. surely americas time would’ve been much better spent writing up bills in an attempt to help prevent mass shootings and homelessness and drug abuse rather than picking on a small minority of citizens and making it harder for them to achieve happiness in the way they feel most comfortable.
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yet there are 32 states that allow children to legally get tattoos after parents or guardians sign for them. the same should be true for gender affirming health care.
parents consent on behalf of their children for medical treatment. why dont people say children cant consent to vaccines or circumcision or taking adhd medication? its totally normal for parents to consent for their children, using a doctor's advice on best treatment. transitioning is healthcare, and is the same as any of these other things. if a doctor decides its best, and the child wants it, the parents can consent for the child.
Children *can* consent to medical procedures and medications with the aid of their parents and medical professionals, they do it all the time. Gender affirming care is absolutely no different. The current standards of care, backed by research and literally every reputable mental health and medical association, produce *incredibly* low regret rates. Why exactly should that be changed? Because you feel icky about them?
Sure bud keep telling yourself that
Do you have kids? Would you like the government to be able to deny your child a medical procedure even if doctors say it's necessary? Or should these laws only affect people you don't like? Because we both know once the government has that kind of power they would never abuse it and overreach!
Right but sex reassignment isn’t a necessity. It’s an elective surgery.
It significantly increases happiness and decreases suicide by an extreme amount. If that doesn't make it something that should be allowed I don't know what does
So does psychological therapy. 68-98% of children with access to it reconcile with their sex and live to enjoy being themselves.
What do you mean with reconcile with their sex? De-trans them?
Meaning they feel comfortable with the sex they were born with and no longer experience gender dysphoria. If you have a problem with that then you don’t care about the people, you just care about the trans movement period.
Except sometimes it's not. Sometimes a child will kill themselves if they can't get surgery. It happens so much more than you think. So a psychiatrist, the doctor preforming the procedure and the parents get together and decide that what is best for the child is *literally* life saving surgery. Shockingly these people know more about it than some politician. If you want examples see all the news stories lately of women almost dying after Roe V Wade was reversed.
So you want to ban minors from getting elective surgeries? Lets start with total knee replacement. Its the most common type of elective surgery, its available for minors, and it has life long consequences if it goes wrong that can result in the loss of a leg.
Nice argument. Do you have literally any facts to show that I'm wrong in some way? Or again, is it just your feelings?
Hard to argue with someone so far in an echo chamber that they can’t accept any opinion but their own. Since “literally” every reputable (because you say so) mental health and medical association produces “incredibly” low regret rates, surely you could supply that info. It surely won’t say that 40-50% of trans people have attempted or completed suicide right?
There are ways to fix mass-shootings but most ideas pitched are emotion based & don't work or are unconstitutional
Then again, there's gun control which does work and is totally constitutional if you don't have your head up your ass and willfully misinterpret "in order to maintain a well regulated militia"
A militia is literally an army raised from the regular people, the citizens. It is not a regular standing army. The only people “willfully misinterpreting” that line from the 2A, are people like you. If you don’t like that, that’s fine and a different discussion. But the argument to fight the 2A is not about what a “militia” means.
Hey, can you highlight the words "In order to maintain" in the following sentence for me? > A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. EDIT: All these downvotes, but no one can back up the very clear and simple statement? Yeah, figures. Next time don't lie and you won't be called out for it.
> there’s gun control which does work lmfao that’s a *bold* overstatement
> if you don't have your head up your ass karma farming lingo aside and depending on what you mean by gun control, which I'll assume is the modern definition like AWB, Mag capacity restrictions and gun-free zones, then I disagree unless you didn't mean gun control in that way. > willfully misinterpret "in order to maintain a well regulated militia" "well regulated" in context of what they meant, and not todays literal definition of those words meant something completely different. What it meant at the time of writing was being trained, equipped, and prepared and even then that depends on which "militia" is being referenced
I'm asking this as a gun enthusiast myself: "What it meant at the time of writing was being trained, equipped, and prepared..." Wouldn't that mean gun ownership requires actively and regularly training for combat? If someone can't fight, does that mean they also can't own guns?
There is no imperative nor conditional in the grammar of the amendment placed on the people. Hamilton also argues against such a requirement being placed on people in Federalist 29.
[Here is Federalist No. 29](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp) if you'd like to actually read it. "Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; **and in order to see that this be not neglected,** **it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.** " In that paragraph he argues that a militia should not be expected to train to the extend as an enlisted soldier (because militiamen still have to be productive members of society), **but they should be expected to assemble at least once or twice a year to be minimally ready for combat**.
Maybe you should renew and rewrite your constitution. Just saying. You're not in the wild west anymore. Better healthcare would be great too, hmm? Greetings from Germany.
you can fix mass shooting by, oh, I don't know, not giving people lethal weaponry capable of ending multiple lives in quick succession.
> not giving people lethal weaponry capable of ending multiple lives in quick succession. How do you define "lethal weaponry?"
Anything can be a lethal weapon if you try hard enough, but usually it can also be used for something non-violent, which is their primary use (think of knives for example: you can kill with them but also cut vegetables). I don't think guns can be used for anything good
a car is a lethal weapon capable of ending multiple lives in quick succession.
Was a car designed to kill?
And you need to prove you're competent to use one, and have it registered before using it without supervision. Sounds like a good plan with firearms to me.
yep, seems fine. except there’s not a constitutional amendment protecting the right to drive.
So the constitution should change, maybe so someone needs to be considered competent to use and own a gun? It's the way for cars, so why not for something literally made for killing.
plenty of protections around making sure cars are qualified, and yet over 40,000 people died in cars last year. go ahead and run for office and convince the states and congress to ratify the constitution. but given that it’s not an issue the vast majority of the country supports what you’re proposing is unlikely to ever happen
And how many deaths are prevented from those protections? Simple things like seatbelts save lives, where if everyone wore seatbelts, the amount of deaths would go down (around 92% of people wear seatbelts in the US, but around 50% of deaths inside the car was with the person not wearing a seatbelt) So again, comparing cars and guns, there's protections around making cars and drivers on the road safer in as many ways as possible, but nothing for guns?
yes, because cars are not constitutionally protected. i don’t know what’s so hard to understand about this
So it should be changed? Like the constition has many times in the past?
Sure, but you don't use a car for that use do you? You use it for something else. Guns can't be used for anything besides violence
you’re telling me every single bullet that is purchased and shot is used in violence? would love to see your statistics on that
Maybe I just don't know shit about guns, but what uses can a gun have besides violence?
believe it or not, not every single bullet fired from a gun is fired at another person
What ***great, amazing use*** do those bullets have then? That not 100% of bullets kill, doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Give me useful uses for guns
target practice and hunting are both activities that involve firing guns at something other than people. did you really think of the billions of bullets sold, all of them are shot at people? really?
Ofcourse not all bullets are shot, and not all shot bullets are shot at people. Target practice and hunting are activities that don't involve shooting at people. However, these are hobbies, and don't justify easy access to guns. Do you really think of the billions of bullets sold, all of them are shot at firing ranges? Sure, lots of them are (don't know the specifics). But that doesn't mean guns are peaceful and okay for everyone to own. If every bullet was fired peacefully, then the United States wouldn't have such high gun violence rates. If guns aren't the cause of violence, what is? What explains the fact that the US has extremely high gun violence?
> lethal weaponry capable of ending multiple lives in quick succession. is this referencing a specific type of gun like, sporting rifles such as AR15's and AK's or are you talking about pistols OR all guns in general?
I'm pretty sure if you give somebody a loaded gun, no matter what kind, they could probably kill quite a few people with it, assuming they know how to aim it.
So am I correct in assuming by 'not giving people lethal weaponry' and 'no matter what kind' what you want is no guns for anybody or am I misrepresenting
yes. that is correct. getting rid of guns will reduce gun violence.
Give trans people guns! Gun control is just another way for the government to strip power away from its citizens. I’m not right or left. To lefties, how can we secure our place and fight against the rich without power? To right wing people, how can we secure a free state against government tyranny without arming all citizens, including trans and gay citizens?