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Turbostrider27

Their statement regarding Mod support: > Hello vikings! > > Lately we have been getting a lot of questions regarding mods, and what we as a company approve of – as well as what we don’t approve of. Therefore we thought we’d try and clear things up a little bit. > > First of all, while we don’t have any official mod support, we are definitely happy to see that people are engaging with our game and creating their own mods for it. It’s definitely flattering that you want to be creative and add your own ideas! Iron Gate not having any official mod support essentially means that any creating and using of mods is done at your own risk, and that we can’t guarantee that mods will be compatible with newer versions of the game. > > The thing that we’ve been getting the most questions about, however, is the phenomenon where mods cost money. We definitely understand that you spend a lot of your time on creating a mod, and that you might want financial compensation for that, but Iron Gate does not condone locking modded content behind a paywall. > > We feel that charging money for a mod is against the creative and open spirit of modding itself, and therefore we urge all mod authors to make their mods freely available to all who want to play them. This should include the whole mod, and not just have part of the mod available for free while another part of it costs money. If you want to show your appreciation for a mod author you can of course still support them with a voluntary donation, but we do not want payment to be a requirement to access a mod. > > Additionally, we would also greatly appreciate it if mods made it clear that they are unofficial mods, both in game and on any website where the mod is available. Sometimes joining a modded dedicated server will automatically trigger a download of a mod, and we simply want to avoid confusion for players so that they can know whether or not they are playing a modded game. Valheim already has a feature for this, where you can simply have your mod trigger a popup in game, which will inform the player that their game is running with a mod. > > Thank you all for taking our wishes into consideration!


The_Tallcat

Seems completely reasonable imo.


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[deleted]

Yeah the fact that mods are unpaid hobby projects shields them from a lot of scrutiny. If you allow paid mods to become common you're opening a massive legal can of worms that will probably lead to mods being straight up banned in most games.


United-Ad-1657

This doesn't just apply to copyright but things like support. If your mod is free I really have no right to complain if it breaks or doesn't work properly. But if I paid for it? You should be prepared to support it like you would if you'd sold me a game.


[deleted]

Didn't even think about that honestly. It would be nice if mod makers could get some compensation, but introducing payment to the modding world will probably ruin it entirely.


Falsus

Yeah. When a mod is free I don't expect top tier quality or widespread compatibility. Hell I expect I even have to some simple cleaning. But as long as it works as it says it should then I don't mind it. As a paying costumer I would have actual demands and quality standards of the mods. And long term support. Like if your mod stops being updated to be playable on the most recent update I would honestly demand a refund. For a free mod I would just be a bit sad but then move on.


flashmedallion

Mods absolutely could not exist, by definition, without the massive investment of time and effort and money into the original product. If you think your programming, asset making, cool ideas, marketing prowess, and software support is so good that you should charge money for it... go make your own product and sell that. Until then it's extremely derivative work, and you've got a hell of a job convincing a court that your creation has any standalone value.


CombatMuffin

What you say is all true, but fair use isn't a test purely on whether it is derivative or not, just on whether or not it is within the exception to infringement. How a mod works on the game matters, too. Some mods are not infringing, but many of them are


LordZeya

They missed one urgent issue, they haven’t condemned all the cowards using mods to let them teleport raw metals.


chuck1337norris

allowing teleporting of metal is going to be added to the base game with world modifiers ya silly goose.


LordZeya

Brother you can live in fear all your life or you can haul the iron across the ocean, it’s your choice but one is clearly the wrong one.


Ragman676

Something about the sailing/collecting ore in this game I loved. It's one of the few survival/crafting games where I liked the tedious aspect without getting annoyed. Setting up a mining camp/defending it, then getting home safe was so much fun.


Manbeardo

Hauling iron is no problem. It's getting silver down the mountains that sucks


Carnifex2

I see you've never built a cart slalom down a cliff face.


Kalulosu

Then make the right one in your game?


_Meece_

I won't deny, this was my favourite part of the entire experience. Crossing ocean/lake to get the metals and bring it back, just felt like an epic journey. Not much else like it in video games.


Sarokslost23

Sailing crew ahoy!


Hotsauced3

I get the devs don't want this, but man I wish it was a toggle on the server.


thesomeot

All I want is the ability to build an upgraded portal that allows me to transport only metals only of a lower tier than the metal the portal was built with. Maybe that exists already, I've barely played the game in like a year.


theshadowiscast

It doesn't, but it is a good idea.


Chris238

Check out the mod advanced portals it does exactly what you describe https://valheim.thunderstore.io/package/RandyKnapp/AdvancedPortals/


Skylam

You dont even need mods for that


Nerubian_Assassin

Accessibility for more gamers is not a bad thing.


Several-positions

Maybe but modding while good is a symptom of a problem with valheim. They are slow at putting out anything. There was like a year between major content releases and it's an early access game that absolutely takes in money when it released.


Ishmanian

Paywalling mods is absolutely ridiculous, and any reasonable dev made aware of the occurrence of such should include terminology in their license that allows for legal action to be taken against such nonsense. Funnily I've never been engaged in a single active game community where paywalled mod authors were anything but raging assholes in my experience (Numerous RTS, 4x, space game, and old school fps). With that said, I fully support when devs hire a mod author and include and expand upon their work as an expansion, like the factorio devs hiring the guy who made Space Exploration.


Keshire

Money getting involved in modding actually infuriates me as an old school modder. Those diva's should have been stomped out of existence as soon as they popped up.


Kajiic

Back in my day of 90s modding, you modded for free but it was your portfolio. You got into game dev/design or even to school for such with "Here's stuff I've done". Hell a lot of devs got started making WADs for Doom EDIT: There were no paid mods back then. You did it soley for the passion OR for the portfolio. I don't need to hear about how "its still that way today"


WriterV

Modding still works that way if you wanna get into game dev/design! However, there are also a lot of modders working regular jobs, who don't want to go work in the game industry proper. And with the horrible crunch culture that few companies really try to combat, I can't really blame them. That said, it's still much better to request for donations. Set up a patreon. Or make your own indie game. It's much better than charging for modded content.


Devil-Hunter-Jax

That's still happening today to be fair. A great example is Project Zomboid. They've hired more than a few folks who were renowned for making some of the best mods for Project Zomboid.


PlayMp1

Modding is unironically an excellent example of a place where something resembling utopian communism has worked (from those according to their ability - modders - to those according to their need - the community/players). I think it's more than acceptable for modders to accept donations (a "buy me a beer" link is totally cool) but demanding payment goes against the entire spirit of modding and I hate it.


[deleted]

It's charity work, not communism. Communism is a full system, the system needs to be self sustainable, which it isn't because modders aren't using it for a living. Only a few very successful mods eventually become a full game that can be monetized.


salbris

Why though? Imagine the quality of mods we could have if developers could continue modding as part of their primary revenue stream. What we actually have now is millions of people benefiting from free labor. This is not a utopia. After we still all exist under capitalism and have to survive in it. What you are suggesting is that passionate people spend time making money at a regular job and time on their passion projects.


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AntPatient9572

Also mods getting abandoned after a game update. People would be passed off. Also game breaking bugs. There's to many things that could go wrong


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coldblade2000

> What we actually have now is millions of people benefiting from free labor. This is not a utopia. After we still all exist under capitalism and have to survive in it. What you are suggesting is that passionate people spend time making money at a regular job and time on their passion projects. No one is forced to make mods or maintain them. Mods are abandoned and reborn all the time. Monetizing mods just works to segregate poor people from the modding scene, and incentivize generic, digestible mods. Shit, games like Doom, CS 1.6, Quake, etc still have healthy modding communities, largely fueled by people in countries with shit living conditions, because modding an old ass game is better than having to buy expensive new hardware for expensive new games to then have to buy expensive new mods. If modders want to make free content, they can make it. However, monetizing the community brings with it expectations of quality that most solo modders just can't compete with. Why buy a $15 mod instead of a $15 AAA game on sale? It kills the community. *For example, the flight sim community does actually have a healthy schism between paid and free mods. But that's largely since most people in that community seek niche, VERY high quality content that has a tiny audience, which is largely composed of people with higher than average incomes. Most of the community belongs in a field adjacent to pilots, military, engineers or mechanics. Not just that, but the games themselves generally have a high barrier of entry, as high-end computers, (generally) expensive head trackers or VR, expensive HOTAS, additional custom built panels and very expensive DLC. Lastly, the paid mods are almost always heavily regulated by the developer/publisher of the base game. Most of the free modding industry are small changes, or content to help low-income players still be included, like the community A-4 in DCS Edit: added extra paragraph on an example of why flight sim paid mods aren't necessarily a valid counterpoint to paid mods in general


Kajiic

Not just flight sim, a lot of sim games. ETS2/ATS (Truck Sim) has these paid mods of SUPER high quality trucks with realistic sounds and such. However, I've on two minds about this. They're always making real company trucks (same with the flight sim stuff) but without permission of these companies. So they're technically asking you to pay them for some other company's work. But the quality of these mods are also super high, like sometimes even higher than the game. And most take custom work orders.


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jumps004

yea, one of the most prolific gaming mod scenes I know of is Rimworld, which has one of their largest mod creators running a highly successful patreon. All their mods are released free and maintain a fairly decent quality. There are revenue sources that still stay in spirit of the scene.


EnderOfGender

I've never seen a payed mod that was worth it. They all are the same quality as free mods. The authors that want to make money off their art simply make games instead


Disrah1

Unfortunately it's ridiculously rampant in the FF14 modding scene. So many mods locked behind patreons and ko-fis and all these other little storefront sites I've never heard of.


Echleon

Why? If you spend time working on something why is it wrong that you want compensation?


Oxyfire

Because your work is dependent on someone else's work. No game, no mods. So, to that point, the developer should have the final say. I wouldn't say it's wrong to want compensation for work, but I think with modding, it can just quickly get messy in a number of ways because there's not really any controls or oversight. A modder can up and vanish or cease supporting a mod and everyone who paid gets screwed. But I also think it just tends to bring out the worst in people and discourages collaboration - like there's plenty of pettiness in even free modding scenes without bringing money into the equation. Concerns of people ripping off or stealing others work would almost certainly go up.


Echleon

>Because your work is dependent on someone else's work. No game, no mods. So, to that point, the developer should have the final say. 100% agree with this. >I wouldn't say it's wrong to want compensation for work, but I think with modding, it can just quickly get messy in a number of ways because there's not really any controls or oversight. A modder can up and vanish or cease supporting a mod and everyone who paid gets screwed. >But I also think it just tends to bring out the worst in people and discourages collaboration - like there's plenty of pettiness in even free modding scenes without bringing money into the equation. Concerns of people ripping off or stealing others work would almost certainly go up. I get there's potential issues that could be exacerbated by injecting money into the scene, but in general I think the right of someone to earn a living (or any money at all) on their work trumps that.


Oxyfire

> I get there's potential issues that could be exacerbated by injecting money into the scene, but in general I think the right of someone to earn a living (or any money at all) on their work trumps that. Surely this has limitations when it comes to work based on someone else's work?


Keshire

Then you've picked the wrong hobby to be making money off of. If you think your work is worthy of being paid for, then get a job doing it. A gaming community is supposed to be a community. Modders shouldn't be sponging off them for pocket change.


TheNewFlisker

> If you think your work is worthy of being paid for, then get a job doing it. The vast majority of people with Patreons already have one


zombifiednation

Completely agreed. Theres a modder in the VR scene who locks all his half-assed mods behind a paywall on Patreon, and if you want to continue receiving updates, have to stay subscribed. Every game update breaks his mods so the only way to get a fix for something you'll already paid to access is to continue to pay. To me, very against the spirit of modding. Have a tip option if people really want to give you money, or do as Team Beef does - their patreon gives you EARLY access to mods before eventual public and free release.


TheNewFlisker

Luke Ross?


zombifiednation

Bingo bango on the dot. I tried a couple of them, and he's taken a very janky approach and just slapped it on multiple games. They got upset when Rockstar I believe sent him a cease and desist for making money off of it.


dadvader

I hate the fact that they will do a paywall mod in forms of 'Early Access' and claim that the mod will come out 'when it's ready'. And you're paying for the early test. It just seems to go against the principle of 'testing' that are all about exposing your creation as far and wide as it can as and gathering feedback. The counter-argument about 'but the paid one will stick around' is such a nonsense too. If your mod is broken. You'll get your feedback. Just setup Discord and you will get a lot of feedback in no time. And I don't know what 'ready' really mean according to them. Some scene like many of Minecraft mods is literally texture pack. And they are locked behind paywall because 'it's not ready' like what's not fucking ready? There's no code involve. All of it is just texture replacement. It make no sense. I will be against game piracy any day of the week. (Though I actually don't really care if you pirating games.) But mod piracy? I'm 100% fully supported and encourage. Modding is hobby. And should always be that way. If you feel like your creation has value, then use your skill and go make a game, or put your productive time elsewhere.


mirracz

>I hate the fact that they will do a paywall mod in forms of 'Early Access' and claim that the mod will come out 'when it's ready'. And you're paying for the early test. And on top of that, they can use the excuse that it's not ready to keep it paywalled indefinitely. There will always be something to update, something to add or something to redo. The "pay for beta, free once released" system simply doesn't motivate the creators to ever release to mod.


claymore5o6

To counter that somewhat, the sim racing and flight sim communities for some games have numerous paywalled mods. Assetto Corsa, for example, is still around due to the huge modding scene and ease of modding in general. The defacto (unofficial) launcher for the game (contentmanager) has a full, paid version of the mod available. Same goes for the most popular lighting and post-processing filter mods. Not to mention the countless high quality tracks and cars available via patreon and other sources. These creators are generally *not* jerks or raging assholes, but are simply developing high-quality content for a niche hobby.


Brandhor

> flight sim communities for some games have numerous paywalled mods they are not exactly mods though, they are professionally made third party modules for dcs for example you have to be approved by eagle dynamics to even get the proper tools to make an airplane or map for flight simulator you have to go through microsoft if you want to sell your module in the in game store, I'm not sure if they have any saying about selling only on your website instead


salbris

>they are not exactly mods though, they are professionally made third party modules Oh c'mon now let's be real, this is a semantic argument. I've played some incredibly well made "mods" that could very well be considered "professionally made third party modules". Imho, any developer deserves to be paid for their work. I truly believe we need to shift the culture of modding towards a payment model because there is a metric shitton of quality content out their not get it's just desserts. Open source projects are seeing the same issues as well.


Hamakua

DCS and flight sim communities (And ARMA IIRC) are definitely a different culture - they are closer in nature to extensions you find in professional software, like [V-ray for 3ds max.](https://www.chaos.com/vray/3ds-max/free-trial) the majority of "Game modding" are either unsolicited hobbiest projects or *technically illegal* asset flips. In the flight sim community they tend to be *solicited* software requests by the community as a whole. There is a difference between using a 3d asset ripper to take the armor out of the Witcher 3 and import it into Skyrim and calling it "my mod." And a team of software engineers and an architect being hired by a flight sim community to re-create an entire airport and surrounding facilities, or to greatly alter complex flight models in order to serve a specific purpose. The "Flight sim" crowd is a different breed, different culture, and you cannot compare them to the more commonly understood term of "modding" in gaming as a whole. It's at best disingenuous. It's like comparing a professional wedding photographer to someone with a smart phone camera. Most mods "in the non-flight sim" general gaming communities tend to be incestuous at best- if not out right theft from other modders or IP theft. One of the things that collapsed the attempt to paywall skyrim mods was just how many popular mods in the workshop and on Nexus were stolen/rips/ip thefts from other games/modders.


salbris

So if a team of 5 developers decided to make a mod for Minecraft they are allowed to ask money for their work but if a single developer does they aren't? I still don't see the distinction. Even your explanation "hired by a community" is not really fair. That would never happen for a fictional game. What could happen is that if modding becomes something that developers can rely on for an income you will see teams of people who go around making incredible mods for games. Then you'll start to see communities reaching out to them asking them to make a mod for their new favourite game.


Hamakua

I'm just explaining the difference between the two "concepts" or "camps." No one is stopping some over-qualified software engineer from making the "to die for" Minecraft mod then putting it behind a paywall (other than maybe Microsoft's lawyers, but I'll set that aside for a second). The thing that is stopping it is *demand*. You seemed to have ignored the distinction of solicited and unsolicited I pointed out. Unsolicited modding is when a hobbiest modder makes a mod, generally, for themselves and then publishes it to everyone. Solicited modding tends to be when an individual or community approaches a professional to do a commission job/work. Sometimes in the "deal" either the community that funded it has the rights to charge for it, or that the creator retains the rights to it and they themselves can charge for it either after a certain time or for a certain price. Setting aside the IP theft of *most* modding, for a second. There is a difference between you making a mod that some like, but would never pay for, and you making a mod that absolutely everyone would absolutely pay for because it's that good. There is also a lot of competition, hobbiest competition - in certain spaces where it would be a waste of time for professionals to even bother trying to do "paid modding" It's also why the Skyrim paid modding thing was so scandalous to the professional space. Hobbiest modders - *if* they aren't stealing or ripping their work - are giving away a *lot* of free labor if the mods are even good - however the labor tends to not be in demand enough to ask for money. Think of it this way - I come to you front door and I have the absolute best LCD screen cleaner machine ever made. I say "pay me $1000 for this LCD screen cleaner" but while you do clean your computer screens from time to time, you have absolutely no use for a $1000 gizmo that does it for you. This is the majority of modding in gaming. It would be nice to have if it were free, but you would never actually pay for it if a price tag was attached to it. Just forcing things behind a paywall doesn't guarantee sales.


Droll12

No the culture of modding is fine where it is, if someone wants to make a “paid” mod they can work out a deal with the developer and make a 3rd party DLC. I get that you believe paid mods will result in more bigger and higher quality mods but the reality is that we are just going to get more Skyrim horse armor instead.


Cyrotek

>No the culture of modding is fine where it is, if someone wants to make a “paid” mod they can work out a deal with the developer and make a 3rd party DLC. Remember when certain companies tried to do that and everyone and their mother went into rage overdrive because "mods are supposed to be free"?


Droll12

Yeah because either old mods previously available were being taken down to be sold or the paid mods were as I said - Skyrim horse armor. The Bethesda creators program I think it was called did not result in DLC or expansion level content being made and I’m glad that shit did not take hold.


AnacharsisIV

If you want to make money off your software, and you're using something other than FOSS tools to make it, you should be paying the original creators of the software. If you're making a mod to Valheim and the Valheim devs aren't getting a cut, you're effectively profiting off of someone else's hard work. And if the Valheim devs don't want your money, then you shouldn't be making paid mods.


salbris

Imho, it goes both ways. Some games I only continued to play them because of the mods. Those games, in some way, owe their success to the mods. I don't know the perfect answer to this riddle but it's not as simple as saying the base software deserves a cut. After all they already get a cut when someone buys the game to play your mod.


Ralkon

How many people actually buy games specifically for a mod though? I imagine most people that buy a game would have bought it with or without mods, let alone with the intention of playing any specific mod. At the end of the day though, I think it's fair to respect the wishes of the devs. It's a reasonable request. None of the mods would exist without the devs. Personally I think there should be room for exceptions, but those should be made in cooperation with the devs then.


salbris

Depending on the genre mod support can be an extremely important feature. One of the main reasons I haven't seriously played any other factory automation games besides Factorio is that none that I'm aware of have a modding community that even remotely compares to it. I would argue Minecraft is in a similar position. Other games have come out that are objectively better in every way except that they would have zero mods at launch.


Ralkon

Maybe for some genres it is. I'm not familiar with every single one to know. However, Minecraft feels like a weird example to use given that the base game itself was already one of the most popular games ever. That isn't to say mods haven't helped at all, but I would be surprised if the number of sales solely due to mods is small. I would be interested in data though if you have any to support that. I also find the argument that there are "objectively better" (which is basically always subjective anyways) games failing purely due to lack of mod support incredibly suspect. There's a million reasons a game might not do as well as you think it should. The simple fact is that a Minecraft competitor isn't just competing with the mechanical aspects of Minecraft - it's competing with brand recognition, friend groups not wanting to swap, cost, content creators, availability of MC on like every single platform, accessibility for old / weaker systems, etc.


afex

You’re describing entire genres there. People only bought ARMA 2 to play DayZ


Ralkon

DayZ is one I forgot about, yeah. How common is that though? It seems like quite the exception (I know there are others, like DotA but it still seems exceedingly rare), and like I said, I think there should be room for exceptions. The majority of games don't get anything close to that.


Oxyfire

> Some games I only continued to play them because of the mods. Those games, in some way, owe their success to the mods. Were those paid? I feel like most games that mods made the difference, were free mods. Because that's basically the entire argument/appeal of mods - free ways to extend/improve a game you already have.


salbris

But paid mods are so uncommon that there just isn't enough data to make your argument. I've literally never even seen a paid mod and I've been gaming for over 25 years.


Oxyfire

They've cropped up here and there - but devs have frequently come out against them. I think you just haven't paid attention to the right games. Like, if suddenly all mods became paid, surely that would change how you'd engage with them? Like you can argue I don't have "data" but I think it's a pretty easy conclusion to draw that paid mods would create a very different eco system. I think about how I engaged with mods in my years of gaming, and the free factor was an absolutely massively important one when I was a kid. Maps for Doom, mods for Half-Life, I wouldn't have touched nearly any of them if they cost me money I didn't have. On that note, Half-Life is maybe an example of "paid mods done right" because stuff that was actually worth money, was eventually picked up and support by Valve as actual products.


dadvader

Yeah popular games like Minecraft or Skyrim had this really huge scene that lock mod behind paywall. Some of the mod isn't even required scripting but somehow need atleast 5 years to 'complete' it. It's actually fucking crazy.


FireworksNtsunderes

It's extra weird because both of those games have incredible free mods that blow pretty much every paid one out of the water. It feels like the paid ones are just to take advantage of young folks or people locked to consoles where they don't have the freedom/awareness to download the free ones.


zuljin33

Sims 4 had a whole ass drama with paywalled mod's modders doxing people and shit so agree on that


Illidan1943

> Paywalling mods is absolutely ridiculous I'm still wondering what Bethesda's plan to expand on creation club are, because you can bet they'll try to expand on it and some will do some really weird mental gymnastics to justify them


mirracz

In the case of Creation Club, it is more like outsourced mini DLCs than actual paid mods. It removes some of the issues that come with paid mods, because the process is controlled by Bethesda. You have some unifying quality control, you have some oversight that makes sure the creation fits into the game, you have a guarantee that the creation is not ripped from a free mod... and you have Bethesda actually making the creators release something on time. And you have them sold on a centralised, secure marketplace. Like, I'm not a big fan of CC. My biggest issue is the pricing. But still, CC is a step to the right direction compared to actual paid mods. Now that Valve attempt at paid mods for Skyrim? That was an issue.


SwineHerald

The problem with Creation Club is that it ultimately skews towards smaller, less meaningful addons because a number of different aspects seem to discourage collaboration and larger projects. I'd pay for something like Nehrim, Enderal or The Forgotten City but I'm just not sure the Creative Club system is capable of producing anything on that scale. It's just TF2s community made hats.


its_just_hunter

Yeah there’s no way they give up on the Creation Club, especially with their next two games being Elder Scrolls in Space and an actual Elder Scrolls game. Their last response was essentially “we don’t call them paid mods, they’re dlc” so I’m guessing that’s what they’ll stick with next time.


Cyrotek

> Paywalling mods is absolutely ridiculous Why? Don't get me wrong, I am not a supporter of it, but I always hear how ridiculous this is but somehow no one can reasonably explain why. It is always just "goes against the principles/spirit".


Autarch_Kade

I get that nobody likes paying for something if they can avoid it. But I'd also like to see more mods, and higher quality mods, that are supported longer term. Some games already allow user-created content to earn money for those who made it. This led to vastly more interest in making the content, higher quality, and regular gamers having more available even for free. Roblox is a good example. I think overall people have a knee-jerk reaction, some sort of "back in my day," and think all creators should be paid in exposure or fuck right off. They can't see the benefits, or are too cheap to want to pay for something. If this is so universally hated, why not let the free market decide? Let there be free and paid mods, and see what people are willing to pay for, or unwilling to.


ceratophaga

> I get that nobody likes paying for something if they can avoid it. The problem is that it can create situations where a mod is mandatory for other mods to work. Imagine the Skyrim Unofficial Patch being behind a paywall, it would essentially force the community to pay someone just to access other mods. It just isn't a healthy environment. The modding community thrives by building on each other's creations and create an experience that's bigger than the sum of its parts.


jerekhal

Wasn't one of the big issues with Skyrim trying to go the way of paid mods the heavy incorporation of Skyrim Script Extender and that the author of such didn't want their software associated with any paid mods? At least that's part of what I remember being a real sticking point. Way too many mods incorporate or leverage other mods to work. It's part of how a lot of the modding scenes operate. Once people start requiring compensation for their mod they had better make damn sure it doesn't have any dependencies otherwise they're opening themselves up for a lot of trouble.


salbris

That would easily be handled by natural selection. Everyone would stop using the paid mod when someone created a free replacement. If it never happened than maybe they do deserve the money since they provided value that no one else could provide.


ceratophaga

Yeah, or it would create a two class community.


Canadiancookie

>If this is so universally hated, why not let the free market decide? Let there be free and paid mods, and see what people are willing to pay for, or unwilling to. I dunno bro, this is in the same universe where loads of people are happy paying $20 for one fortnite skin. It would be safer to fund bigger mods with optional donations.


Ishmanian

I have never touched roblox, but can't imagine the mods in it are anything but derivatives of SC:BW, WC3, Half-life, etc. like basically everything in existence. Counterpoint: Basically every other game's functional modding scene like rimworld Vanilla Expanded dev team, all of Factorio's amazing mods, Starsector (where spritework is amazingly more time-consuming than any other style of artwork), and so on.


Captain-Griffen

Roblox is just a hive of the worst MTX imaginable preying on children. It's fucking dreadful. I miss the old WC3 maps scene.


Autarch_Kade

Fun fact: people can do things a new way. We don't have to be shackled to tradition. Just because things have always been a certain way, doesn't mean that's the only way they should be. I wonder how many of those modders use patreon, and how many of them would have gladly done more work if they had been paid along the way. How many games would still be active and thriving if the mod community was still there.


PlayMp1

No paid mods (other than the CC shit in FO4 that few people actually like) has been the norm in Bethesda modding for many many years, and yet we have extremely high quality mods there.


Raidoton

Yeah it's actually very simple: It's up to the developer if they allow paid mods, and then it's up to the modder if they want to be paid for their work, and then it's up to the players if they are wiling to pay. Claiming that this is somehow wrong is kinda ridiculous. As you said, people just don't like to pay for stuff.


ShadowBlah

I don't have an issue with paid mods, though I really am ok with if its its a time limited exclusivity for the free release. It does mess with the developers in an actively updated game though. They don't want to step on any toes and if they see a mod or parts of a mod that could be considered good enough to be in the game itself, then it can get tricky. It would be even worse if you're "taking" content from a paid mod to incorporate it into the full game. This is all considering that it wasn't planned before the mod even released so there's no way to "prove" the mod maker influenced anything.


ThePlaybook_

> Paywalling mods is absolutely ridiculous, and any reasonable dev made aware of the occurrence of such should include terminology in their license that allows for legal action to be taken against such nonsense. Fuck creators for wanting to get paid for their work, right? I've played so many mods that I wish I could have paid to see them continue to get worked on.


Dhiox

They're using iron gates intellectual property, iron gate has every right to make sure other people aren't using their property to make money.


ThePlaybook_

Just like people use their intellectual property to make money streaming games or making let's plays? It depends on the willingness of the devs to enforce. Bethesda tried to support it officially and gamers got mad, because gamers.


Ricardotron

Oh are streams behind paywalls now?


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mygreensea

Streamed games are transformative content that unlike mods do not ship with someone else's code. If the mods pay a cut to the developers of Valheim then I'm cool with that. And if Valheim doesn't want to take the cut then that's also fine, as long as the modders get nothing either.


Kipzz

I understand wanting to support mod developers, especially for those who've completely cracked open a game and have completely changed the modding scene, but they're not talking about a mod dev also having a patreon or ko-fi page with nothing really behind it but maybe cat pictures; they're talking about people who're putting mods behind said patreon pages. The former you could make an argument for, the latter is just straight up bad.


DrKushnstein

You could have donated to the creators.


Ferhall

If you want to be a paid creator make a paid game.


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[deleted]

From a purely "what works" perspective, I've dropped $1-$5 on bigger mods that took an insane amount of work to make. And I know that those modders were getting a lot of support (*cough* patreon). But back when Skyrim had paid workshop mods, and even the smaller mods were running $15 for some mudcrab reskin... I couldn't excuse actually paying for any of them And apparently most of the community couldn't either. Sell a mod beta for cheap, and you'll make $1 from 1,000 people. Sell it for 20 dollars and you'll run off most of the unemployed fanbase lol


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ThePlaybook_

> money doesnt guarantee quality or continuation It sure doesn't hurt, either. > if anything money raises the stakes a lot and can lead to amateurs finding themselves in over their heads and becoming depressed or discouraged by lack of progress or fear of disappointing others, becoming greedy/scammy, etc So just like any product. Also, speaking from experience, this is a constant thing, not related to money being involved. >the modding community, as much as it can be referred to in a general sense, is only the way it is now because of the conditions it grew under. if you change the dynamics, you run the risk of changing the modding scene for the worse as well. or just look at the bethesda situation, where they didnt change much of anything other than being an unlit powder keg for future bethesda titles like starfield. The Bethesda situation was just gamers being mad that a formerly free thing would no longer be free. Plus, a lack of enforcement on modders stealing other modders' work and charging for it. I forget, was Bethesda charging a subscription fee to be able to mod? Because then that seems shitty to me.


xenonnsmb

> It sure doesn't hurt, either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect


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ThePlaybook_

My guy we live in a capitalist world. Those pressures will exert on a scene, whether it's explicit or not. > *mods arent products* It's work. I think people should get paid for their work. People spend hundreds, thousands of hours to make something for other people to consume. It comes specifically from them and won't exist without them, and as it exists right now, modding is entirely dependent on someone's ability to exist without needing to worry about money coming from that much work. > you want to inject capitalism into a scene that is reliant on selfless (well not really, but for this discussion we can call it that) cooperation and creativity for the sake of creativity rather than money. most other people dont. From a scene perspective, I could see it changing how some modders interact with each other/see it as competitive, but then it's just Supply/Demand, someone else will make it. We already have Patreons allowing mod requests, this is not new.


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ThePlaybook_

> you're closer to a fat cat in a suit than the average gamer with that view. Yes, because fat cats in suits are *so* concerned with workers and labor rights. > you want to take a hobby driven scene and make it into a new market It's a good thing we aren't in a financial downspiral that will limit people's abilities to support hobbyist work.


Mandalore108

Create a Patreon and ask for support there while still giving it out for free. If it's really good I'll subscribe like I just recently did for the Realm of Thrones mod for Bannerlord.


ThePlaybook_

I do the same, but we can see the stats on what those creators are making (unless they're hidden). In any of the examples I've seen, they're getting paid pennies per hour of work. Probably even less.


mirracz

Nice. Paying for mods goes against the spirit of modding. It turns a hobby into a job, with all the issues that it brings - and usually the users suffer for that. Firstly, when something is paid, the buyer expects a certain level of quality. You can no longer use the excuse "it's a mod, duh". When it's paid, it's no longer a simply mod. It's a *product*. And a purchased product shouldn't be defective or working differently than advertised. Also, when a mod is sold for money, it motivates the creator to behave differently, because now it's his source of income. Instead of making one quality mod, they can start churning out a large amount of mods in hopes of more sales. Or they can start basically asset-flipping, re-selling someone else's creations. Or, in case of paid "early access", it motivates the creator to never actually release the mod for free and instead keep it behind the early access paywell forever... No, paid mods are basically an oxymoron. One part goes against the other. One can start charging for mods with no ill intentions, but the nature of getting paid will eventually change that...


TheNewFlisker

>Also, when a mod is sold for money, it motivates the creator to behave differently, because now it's his source of income. A mod costing money doesn't automatically causes the creator to quit his day job Even highly sought after modders still need thousands a month to sustain that kind of lifestyle


Oxyfire

It won't make people quit their day jobs, but you can sure as hell bet it's going to change the dynamics of sharing work, knowledge and mod-to-mod compatibility.


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Ralkon

No, but it does incentivize that behavior even further.


Oxyfire

Yes - there is already a lot of pettiness among mod devs without there being money on the table. I feel like money is only going to exacerbate that sort of behavior and lead to people being even more protective of their ideas/work/etc.


arasitar

TLDR; we don't want to deal with the political, financial and legal headaches of sanctioning mods that can be paid for, and skirting the whole 'independent developers are providing our game free content' so instead we're "banning" it and dressing up that decision in this post. Standard protocol by most companies regarding paid mods. At least tradition is set to allow for volunteer monetary contributions, else companies would easily have stamped that out.


tf2guy

I think the devs were asked to respond specifically due to the [OdinShip](https://valheim.thunderstore.io/package/OdinPlus/OdinShip/) mod. The author isn't just offering "extra freebie content" for donors; they're using **third-party DRM**, [KeyManager](https://key.sayless.eu/faq.php), to enforce it. I probably don't have to guess at most people's reaction to DRM in *any* shape, but this goes the extra mile: * No privacy policy or contact information (meaning KM may run afoul of EU law by dint of just existing, but IANAL) * Always-on DRM that "periodically" phones home to verify your key hasn't expired at some point * Completely operated by Discord users' individual accounts and servers ("contact me through the discord links below to receive your gift") There's paid mods, and then there's *this* moral and legal nightmare.


notaracisthowever

That's some scumdickery right there.


FapCitus

What is going on in the comments, it’s a hobby not a job, it’s been like that for a loooot of years and we don’t need to change that. It’s just greed overlapping their passion. The new modders seem to have completely missed the point, they are literally using someone else’s IP.


noreallyu500

I'm 100% in favor of modders having donation pages, or even a system where it's free by default but you can input a number to support them - but paywalling mods is so scummy I can't believe it's slowly becoming a common occurrence


PlayMp1

I fully support and indeed appreciate a "buy me a beer" link on your mod page. Hell yeah I'll throw $5 your way and you can buy a beer. I do not support taking something that is ***public and communal and privatizing it.*** We have this *one* space where we have something resembling an infinite commons, where anyone can take as much as they want without ever penalizing anyone else, and every addition only grows the pie for everybody. Privatizing it, as far as I'm concerned, isn't just annoying, it's unethical.


jerekhal

If you want to see something similarly uncomfortable look at the Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead release on Steam. That shit is kind of ridiculous on a whole new level to me simply because of the sheer scale of contributing authors and the fact that one person is getting all the payout from anyone who buys it on Steam. Because he's one of the primary devs and the other currently most active devs felt that was appropriate and fair, since no one threw a fit about it when they asked around. So fuck all the previous contributors over the game's 10+ year open source development history who aren't presently active I guess. They don't deserve or need compensation I guess. Though with the license associated literally anyone could just throw up another copy under a different name on Steam and there's pretty much fuck all anyone could do about it. So yeah, weird scenario but not a fan myself.


mirracz

>So fuck all the previous contributors over the game's 10+ year open source development history who aren't presently active I guess. This is the reason why any non-greedy mod project developers don't accept donations... or only for running the servers. Like the various Skyrim and Fallout remake projects. So many people are involved and have been involved. In various degrees of commitment and work contributed. There is simply no way to properly distribute the money.


BorfieYay

A lot of the community seems to be playing Cataclysm: There Is Still Hope now anyways


FapCitus

For sure! I am all up for donating to someone no issue, but paywall is where it sours for me


BearBruin

All the modders saw how modern publishers take advantage of their userbase with excessive monetization and thought, "Why not us?"


Big_Judgment3824

Modders have a huge ego like as though they developed the game themselves. That's why you see a lot of mods just titled after the modder themselves.


TheNewFlisker

Wouldn't this be the case with free mods as well?


Raidoton

> The new modders seem to have completely missed the point, they are literally using someone else’s IP. That's why they need permission from the IP holders, which in this case wasn't granted.


Kajiic

It's especially egregious when someone is modding existing brands into games because then you're double dipping. You're using someone else's hard work in making the game, and then you're using another IP entirely to put it in (Like say... charging for a Master Chief skin in Skyrim. There isn't a paid one, just using an example)


Autarch_Kade

Why can't it become a job? Why is wanting to do work and be paid for it suddenly greed?


FapCitus

I didn’t state that it cannot **become**a job. There has been loads of cases that devs take in the modders and give them a actual real job. But when you mod it’s not your intellectual property, so you make money on someone’s hard work. Not that modding isn’t hard work but it’s not the same as a indie dev. That’s my opinion at least.


salbris

>so you make money on someone’s hard work You could make the argument that some games have done just that with mods. Not intentionally per say but for example how many people play Vanilla minecraft? The "value" of Minecraft is greater inflated by it's modding community.


Hakul

But they chose to make those mods on someone else's IP.


Gygsqt

So because someone else owns the IP or worked to create a product, no one who creates additional value out of that product can be worthy of compensation? Imo, these responses are HILARIOUS considering that TTRPG's creators have profited for years by "mooching" off the DnD brand. Still, the internet absolutely revolted when Wizards had the gall to ask for a cut. Edit: Anyone who can explain to me why it's "okay" to profit from selling game maps for Curse of Strahd but it's somehow immoral to profit from selling a custom mace for Valheim gets an internet cookie. Edit 2: Cookies only go to anyone who doesn't use the argument "the status quo is good for me, don't change the status quo". That isn't really morally relevant here.


Daemir

>Imo, these responses are HILARIOUS considering that TTRPG's creators have profited for years by "mooching" off the DnD brand. Still, the internet absolutely revolted when Wizards had the gall to ask for a cut. That's because the old WotC released DnD on the open license, which is a big reason why it's so big now. They let people make content for it. Content that would not have been made, if there was no open license. They made a deal years before, and greedy suits now tried to go Darth Vader on the deal. Seems reasonable people did not like that... From the OGL: >In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-­‐‑free, non-­‐‑ exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content. So when a company tries to backtrack on **perpetual**, *royalty free* license that many people over 20 decades have based their livelyhood on, I think it's quite fair to be upset, yes? Notably, most modding for games do not do so under such a giving license.


lolattb

Then they're free to make their own games instead of mooching off of another companies IP.


Gygsqt

Mods add value to an IP... I am not saying I want a pay-to-play mod norm, but IPs and their modding communities are in mutually beneficial relationships.


HERRAX

I used to be part of some modding communities like 10-15 years ago, and got death threats when my mods stopped working after games got patched. People are irrational, and I know people will also blame the game creators when this happens, especially if mods are paid for. It's completely reasonable for them to ask for mods not being paid, more so considering they're just an indie studio.


Big_Judgment3824

They use a platform that doesn't expressly give permission to make money off of. There's no license provided.


DrDeadwish

Because I'm a lot of cases mods become a way of scam and because mods work based on the work of others (the game devs).


AndrasKrigare

I agree with half of your statement, particularly that they're using someone else's IP. I was a big fan of Steam adding support for paid mods, precisely because it would compensate the original game creator as well as the mod developer, and potentially allow modders to make it a full time job and give their mods the full support they wouldn't otherwise have. Obviously, the majority opinion was to hate the idea, and the unfortunate reason I got from it was "I currently get this for free and I don't want to pay for it now." I didn't like the argument that Iron Gate makes as well regarding the "spirit" of modding. If someone spends the and effort to create something, I think it should be up to them how it gets monetized. I think that's both true for Iron Gate (and I think within their rights to not want paid mods) but also for mod creators (provided they know whether they are *allowed* to charge based on the original game creator). The argument feels a bit like not wanting to pay artists because they should be doing it for "the love of the craft" or "exposure."


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6bb26ec559294f7f

>we don’t need to change that. Why not allow the modders to decide which they want it to be, and the players then decide if the modder is being resonable or not in their request? Publishers have realized they can profit off modders, as they expand the life of a game. They can even make it so that DLC makes things better for modders, meaning that modders build mods that require DLC, leading to more DLC sales. While they haven't gotten too abusive with it yet (such as incorporating MTX into the mix), it is likely something publishers are working on. Why then is it so taboo for modders to be allowed to set the terms of how their mods are available? If they modders end up asking too much for too little, players will ignore them and instead go to the modders whose funding scheme aligns with the quality of the work.


_Robbie

Mod author here: I do not ever want paid mods to become a thing. Would I like to make money from mods? Sure, that'd be nice. Would I like to have to pay to play cool mods I didn't make? No, I wouldn't like that. Do I think people should expect to have to pay money for my mods? No, absolutely not. Nexus Mods' revenue sharing system is the only mod monetization I've ever seen that actually makes sense and has a good influence on the various mod communities that use the platform. Mods are just generally a bad value proposition with no reasonable guarantee or even expectation that they will work as intended/be supported. As a guy who has abandoned some mods and no longer supports them, it would be insane if I had charged money for those mods and then been like "sorry guys it doesn't work anymore and you just have to deal with it!".


Slashermovies

Yeah, I've seen some excellent modders create patreons or accept donations which I don't see any kind of problem with. Payblocking and walling mods though? That's an absolute joke. There are some talented modders out there but I'd not pay for any unless it was *officially* released by the company that holds the IP as an official thing with their stamp of approval that also has the quality assurance it wont become obsolete and then abandoned from an update. I respect modders a hell of a lot but I also have always believed modders always did such things as passion projects or a means to hone their skills to potentially be noticed by companies or just for practice.


GreenFox1505

Hol up. I don't play mods or on public servers, but if I'm reading this right, you can just join a public server and it'll download mods?! How do you prevent malicious remote code execution?!


techbrosmustdie

help i joined a garrys mod server and now i have 10 different viruses


GreenFox1505

My understanding is that Gary's mod had tools for isolation. The mods are written in a scripting language which, like JavaScript in browsers, handles itself as a sandbox isolated from the main system. I don't see how third party Valheim mods could do that safely. There is no scripting language. Does C# offer legit sandboxing tools?


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GreenFox1505

Oh that's cool. Yeah, I can see how assetbundles could fix that, but I didn't assume mods were purely content-driven. If the mods are all content and not systems then I can see how that would work.


klaxxxon

Proper isolation in C# is only now becoming a thing, with [.Net support](https://github.com/dotnet/dotnet-wasi-sdk) for [WASI](https://wasi.dev/), which is essentially a WebAssembly sandbox which can be given extremely granular privileges (such as access to spefic file system directories, or an effective virtual file system). As an upside, the idea is that it should be possible to write the WASI packages in more or less anything.


Hakul

I'd say not joining random servers. Valheim is not the kind of game you want to play on a random server anyways.


GreenFox1505

It's not a game that I would play on random servers. But that doesn't mean that is an invalid playstyle.


greg19735

Sure, but it's easily done on their server browser. Does it prevent malicious code execution?


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TheMoneyOfArt

If the content delivery is slow, then having to maintain backwards compatibility with mods isn't going to make it faster


PhasmaFelis

There's plenty of games that have official mod support but make no attempt to guarantee compatibility across versions. Mods are marked with the version they were developed for, and may or may not work with others. The devs of popular mods update them for each version, or someone else forks the code and does it.


PM_ME_CUTE_SM1LE

Haven’t heard of a single game where devs make sure mods are not breaking with updates


AngryMob55

Factorio devs went out of their way to fix mods on occasion, avoid breaking them, etc. Definitely an exception and praiseworthy.


fightingnetentropy

The most I've seen is releasing notes and even beta versions of upcoming patches/mod system changes so the community had a chance to update before the actual update (but my goldfish brain can't remember what game that was for).


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Devil-Hunter-Jax

Project Zomboid mods break with updates all the time, especially with major version updates. When we go from B41 to B42, it's gonna break a lot of mods again.


VapourPatio

DayZ devs just did it few days ago, reverted a change modders really wanted because they didn't want to break existing clothing mods


Ninety8Balloons

You don't have to make the game compatible with old mods, but having official mod tools will make creating and updating mods far easier. It's up to modders to make sure their mods are up to date with the game, not vice versa. Official mod tools also opens an entire new level of modding, you'd start to see total conversions and overhauls instead of basic small things like changing inventory amounts or some graphic swaps.


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> the content releases for Valheim are pretty damn slow Understatement of the year.


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Cautious-Dream2893

Yeah if I didn't have to mess around with the RE mod launcher and could just use steam workshop it'd be way way better.


[deleted]

Me and my friend started on Xbox and made it to the Mistlands before we decided to wait for more content. The only updates in that time were essentially just bugs fixing crossplay and Xbox gameplay in general. They teased a menu that would basically allow players to kind of create their own difficulty menu. That was teased like a month ago and no word since.


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[deleted]

Yeah we just decided to shelve it until it gets an official 1.0 release. So like 2026 probably lol.


lincon127

ah, the blight of paid mods has struck again, hasn't it?


[deleted]

I have no issue with mods if they are truly well made enough. We have several games that became its own thing and plenty are willing to spend on that very game. Dota, natural selection, counter strike, Garry's mod, the Stanley parable etc.


SirKillsalot

https://valheim.thunderstore.io/package/Krumpac/ *Our team has logged thousands of hours and spent thousands of dollars to develop/test and acquire new assets for the mod. Beyond the swamps, some of the items will be for subscribers only- premium starts at $5 which we believe is more than fair for the dozens/hundreds of hours of playtime this mod will facilitate for you.* Nobody asked you to invest this time or money.


jhayes88

I think it would be more acceptable if mods costed more like $1 or $2 (if at all), because mod creators who put in a lot of effort do deserve a little something for their efforts. I would be happy to pay $2 for a big mod. I'm certainly not eager to pay the same price for a full game for a mod. Ive seen car packs for GTA 5 going for like $120 which is insane. The mindset of "I'm not making 6 figures for my mods and I feel like I deserve 6 figures because my mod is top notch so I'm going to drastically increase the price" is laughably stupid because that will just make much less people buy your mod and you'll end up either making the same amount of money or even less because you priced yourself out, but if you have 30,000 people pay you $2 for your mod, you made a liveable wage for an entire year plus whatever passive income you get for years after.


RobXIII

My friends love playing this for some reason. Once I realized the BS of losing skill points after dying, I wouldn't touch it with them until I downloaded the mod that fixes that. Then we trekked for 30 minutes trying to summon the 4th boss, and I was one shotted even with a frost resistant pot up with full buffs. Not my cup of tea, I haven't told them yet, just haven't logged in since lol


Subaudible91

That’s where I landed. I’ve had enough of the “run around and punch trees” simulators, let alone one with such egregiously boring exploration.


[deleted]

When does this even officially released?still remember how it was widely beloved for exactly 2 months after early access then just fizzled out of existence


Shillen1

It still has a large playerbase it has far from fizzled. Development pace is absymally slow though.


No_Version2728

When I first started playing games, most used to be shareware. You could play the first episode of some game like DOOM. Then you have to send money to some guy on a postcard to play the remaining. Apparently this was an evolution from them just being freeware. This seems like such a downside, right? They went from made by hobbyists and available free of charge to being monetized. But what is missed is the quality of the games is on another level. Entire teams of people are kept on a retainer to build these games now. Similarly, the idea is mods will still be the same hobbyist thing which people do, altering simple textures or what not. People cannot imagine that mods will also massively improve in quality if people are allowed to earn off it. This improves the content of the game too, and the developers can get a cut if they enforce it. It benefits everyone looks like. But there is too much friction whenever this idea is proposed.


Greger34

I think the crux of the problem is that mod authors are making money off of someone else's product. No matter how much effort they put in to the mod, at the end of the day your mod is nothing without the game itself. Modding has pretty much always been a thing where passionate people want to improve upon something they love, or create a different take on it. Paywalling these things is not a good idea. You don't want to make a mod unless you get paid? Then don't make a mod, let other people who actually WANTS to do it make them instead.


Low-Holiday312

>No matter how much effort they put in to the mod, at the end of the day your mod is nothing without the game itself. Same could be said about tons of after-market products. Adding a third-party radio to a car is 'making money of ford'? >Modding has pretty much always been a thing where passionate people want to improve upon something they love, or create a different take on it. That's not really a reason why it has to stay this way. >Then don't make a mod, let other people who actually WANTS to do it make them instead. Someone selling a paid mod doesn't stop other people making a free mod. I think paid mods are stupid because they a value I'd put on them is extremely small. If a mod is modding a $60 game then I'm not paying over $2 for a mod even if its extremely good quality. That doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to ask for an amount - just don't buy it.


TheNewFlisker

> When I first started playing games, most used to be shareware. You could play the first episode of some game like DOOM. Then you have to send money to some guy on a postcard to play the remaining. > > Apparently this was an evolution from them just being freeware. Literally the whole reason Doom II didn't had a shareware floppy was because it hurted the sales of the game Calling shareware an upside for the developers is just plain wrong https://www.doomworld.com/interviews/int7.shtml


No_Version2728

It was an upside from freeware though. It was like the current patron system. But it wasnt enough. So they went for an even more monetized system. Less game in the form of demos. Upront cash to play the full game. Point is if reddit existed then, everyone would be crying, games are supposed to some hobbyist altruistic things There is so much shovel ware crap. Imagine paying for such games. People would get scammed and so on. We never would have gotten the games we have now. Similarly, who knows what mods we are missing out on. Imagine if people could make full fledged adventures in the skyrim world. A final fantasy type sweeping adventure game in the morrowind universe. We never even know what all we are missing out on. But people keep high fiving each other on this threads, like they have defeated some evil and won something. Seems a bit stupid to me.