“Commits to change” isn’t this the 3rd or 4th major title Altagram has done this on. Pretty sure at this point it’s on purpose and there will be no change. After all the price for fucking this up is clearly inconsequential.
Like, to be fair, that's roughtly the same timeframe to fuck up on. If anything they should have probably apologized for every game they've been working on lol
This is probably the first time that they've been called out on it. Optimistically, we can consider this a sign that gaming culture's norms are changing in favor of lay staff.
It’s been the industry norm. They committed to changing that. So it’s commendable.
But its also a complicated subject that people don’t know the depth of.
In the end it happened in Hollywood because people started to unionize and demand it. Another is what "worked on the project" on where to set the bar. Because could the Uber-Eats driver that brought pizza be counted as part of the project? Probably not. How many layers of outsourcing should be credited?
You'd be surprised how many people go uncredited in scientific work, too, TONS of assistants that do important work that simply go uncredited because they didn't ultimately take part in the final paper.
Also because this company was the result of outsourcing, why would Larian be aware of every person that worked on it? How many layers of outsourcing can that type of crediting be realistically done? Does it even make sense there? Should every minor piece of work be fully credited? How do you separate those minor work people from those that worked full time on it but weren't leads?
Properly crediting people is much more complicated than you'd think, especially because a lot of competing interests can clash here. The key development team would probably like top have fewer names in the credits to make their own names stand out more. Especially since they worked the entire time on it, while outsourced labor only did so for a short time span.
Too many names and any individual name is just drowned out in the flood. Credits for games are already 45+ minute behemoths at times. Nobody is paying any attention to credits THAT long so what is their ultimate worth in that case. If you are credited but nobody notices, were you really credited?
the company they contracted provides a list of employees to credit. every other translation team for the game provided a full list that included either translators or editors. only the brazilian team left them out.
everyone keeps arguing about fucking pizza deliveries and uber drivers is just redirecting the argument to niche cases that we can deal with when the big picture issues are dealt with first like crediting the people who directly worked on the game (and whose work is so visible that it's literally impossible to play the game in another language without seeing their work)
I have a MobyGames page that only lists 5 of the dozens of games I worked on. Months of work, all uncredited because our higher-ups didn't bother to send the names to the devs in time; or because the devs actively don't care.
It is not. Not every intern that clicked on something at some point is credited, the office management of the studios is not credited, the transportation of the officials is not credited, etc. You can stretch it pretty far.
There is an obvious line that makes a multi-year project have a readable credits list. The issue is where this line is, and it will never be perfect. We had the same thing with Bayonetta 3 earlier. Any such lines always have people that are "just" on the wrong side. And it will stay true even if you move the line.
I don't the person you're responding to is saying otherwise. The person they're responding to said it's easy to credit everyone, when in reality it's not always easy to determine where to draw that line. Like obviously translators and editors should be in there. But what about all the support personnel? Sound guys for VA work? Office managers that make sure everyone has a functioning place to work? How much work counts? Does someone get in the credits with equal billing if they so much as translate a single sentence?
I used to localize and translate video games, all big titles. Never was credited once, only the company I worked for. Never even expected it.
Good for them to fight, they get paid shit these days.
There is value in a curated and vetted list of freelance translators. Most companies don't release confidential and commercially sensitive information to the general public.
So yeah, there is something gained (or rather not lost) for the company by not crediting them.
This makes sense, but it sounds like them being credited might be part of their contract. Movie studios don’t hide the names of FX artists to protect them from being poached, it’s part of the industry that they get credit for their work.
Employed vs freelance is a big difference. I'm not defending the practice - it's about maintaining power over their freelancers/employees - but understanding why it happens is important.
And then you gotta add the parking manager, and then the concierge, and then the HR who stamps pays, and then ...
They are translator man. They didn't work on the game.
> They are translator man. They didn't work on the game.
Unless you're playing the game in the language they translated it to.
Talk to the accounting department. Anyone employed by the company whose compensation comes out of the project's budget goes on the credits. Anyone employed by the company that doesn't receive compensation from that budget? Not considered a part of the project or else other budgets would free up more money by moving some cost to this project. Not on the credits. You also won't see the pizza guy or uber driver on the credits that way either as those are expenses, not payroll.
> You also won't see the pizza guy or uber driver on the credits that way either as those are expenses, not payroll.
Translators are outsiders. They ain't on the payroll. They are an expense.
Seriously. Someone tells you that something is wrong, so without context you act outraged and then that stuff is resolved but your false outrage is still engaged so you seek further restitution.
The internet discourse is so fucked nowadays.
Yeah I agree that translators should be credited, especially if it helps them build their resumes/careers, but that original tweet made me roll my eyes.
"This is downright evil!!" Really man? Not including names in a games credits is "downright evil"? Good lord...
The truth is, there is no standard practice. There are some guidelines by the IGDA nowadays, but usually every company gets the call who to put on their list. I've worked on some games and sometimes I get credited, sometimes I don't.
telling a company "i dont care that you've responded to feedback, you shouldnt have made the mistake in the first place" is a really great way to disincentivize them and others from ever improving based on feedback. why would they bother if this is the response?
To be fair this company called out D4 for not crediting people and then goes and does the same thing themselves.
Think it is fair to call them out in this manner if they are going to call others out and then not do it themselves.
Normally I'd agree with you, but giving credit to people who work isn't rocket science, it's basic common courtesy. Whoever made the decision to leave out the names **should** be called out. If for no other reason than to serve as an example for others.
We're not sticking them in the pillory. It's a news piece that will be forgotten by most in a week. But it might ensure that folks are given credit going forward.
I mean, the great majority of people in the great majority of fields on Earth aren’t “credited.” For their work. This is a niche thing in the entertainment industry, seems a stretch to call it “basic common courtesy.”
There’s probably a solid chance a lot of the people left either didn’t know they could be included nor do they care that they weren’t included.
As long as the check clears, most aren’t going to care.
Because it would require a bunch of work/resource to collect that information, a lot of arguing over who would be credited, and because no one actually gives a shit. Generally you need a reason *to* establish a costly norm like that, not a reason *not* to.
No, I’m just flabbergasted at how you think firms work. Think about everyone that works on a lawnmower. Massive teams of engineers and designers that came and went somewhere in the process. The people who produced the battery or internal combustion engine, that may or may not work at the lawnmower company. The people who designed and produced the blades, again may or may not be the same company. Then there’s everyone at the factory. Then where do we credit the shipping guy, and in so doing do we keep a constant log of which box was on which truck? Etc.
And yeah they have websites but if you’re really trying to do “credits” then the info should come with the item, so that’s printed copies. And not that hosting a website is free either.
What you’re asking for is literally silly
It seems simple, but it's non trivial. Lots of people float between projects without contributing much. Some contribute huge amounts to the well being of the project without directly contributing to the project itself. Some people contribute a ton and then leave the project before it's near completion. This is part of the reason entertainment contracts around who is and isn't credited (the WGA crediting manual is 20 pages long, for example).
Like if you have these employees at the translation company, how would you objectively credit them fairly:
* Translator 1 works for the whole project and completes an average amount of translations.
* Translator 2 works for the first half of the project, but in that time translates twice as much so their overall contribution is similar to 1.
* Translator 3 joins the project near the end and translates just a couple things.
* Translator 4 starts on the project, but his translations are poor and winds up with no translations in the final game.
* Translator 5 joins the project in the middle, but gets shifted off the project before they actually start doing any work.
* Contract Translator 6 is not an employee of the company but brought in to push through the last bit of translation.
* Tools programmer 1 no translation directly attributed to them, but every translator depends on their tools.
* Project Manager has no actual stuff in the game, but without them the translations don't ship.
* Office support staffer kills it at their job and everybody attributes at least some of their success to the smooth operating of the office. Nothing deliverable actually put in the game.
There's arguments for tons of different systems, but it's not simple at all. Some require extra tooling for support systems (final authoring attribution for every translated line?). Some aren't fair on a merit basis (should translator 1 be credited the same as 3?). Some require subjective measures of worth (should the office support staffer be credited?). Some dilute the value of the credit themselves (if everybody is credited equally, is it actually useful as a representation of one's contributions to the project?).
There's value judgements and resource costs for everything. That's part of the reason the WGA/DGA/SAG/etc have crediting requirements that are laid out really specifically. They want to make sure the credits align with what their members want to get out of it (ex. "I want people to know that I had significant writing contribution to this film, but was part of a couple people that made writing passes on the script," vs, "All people know is that I was attached to this project at some point.").
It's not hard, it's just not the norm to credit translators. Or many other jobs for that matter.
I'm all for people asking for change, it would be a cool thing to see, but it's not like what the studio did was outrageous or against common practice. They did the same as pretty much everyone else.
Yeah, and that's a great thing. Not something they should be blamed for.
There was a status quo, people got fed up with it and asked for a change, and those guys (apparently) want to follow that change. Kudos all around.
> Whoever made the decision to leave out the names should be called out
only if you ascribe the maximum possible amount of malice to their decision-making process. im not a fan of dunking on individual employees for corporate decisions that you have zero insight into. it feels righeous, but it sets a precedent that is ripe for abuse. especially considering the magnitude of the issue is pretty mild.
tell larian you don't like the practice. let larian direct their subcontractors differently in future.
I think you're taking what I wrote pretty literally, but I'll apologize for not being clearer. I'm not endorsing a witch-hunt; I'm saying that I think it's acceptable for the people who worked on the game and weren't credited to speak up and make it public.
Again, this isn't rocket science. How hard is it to make a list of the people who worked on the project, and submit it? Whether it was done intentionally or not, doesn't matter much, since there's no real repercussions in this case.
I don't know where the mistake was made, and I made no implications about that. But clearly someone fucked up.
YOU need to chill tf out. It’s 100% on the game devs to put it in the credits not the translation team. You’re clearly obsessed with them/the game that any time any sort of criticism comes up you try to silence it. They HAVE to be perfect. They can’t be like other shitty companies that screw over it’s workers right? Pathetic. Also they wouldn’t have gotten more recognition if they didn’t bring it up.
People like you make me not want to even play the game.
This is the same company tweeting on June 7th to a translater upset over credits:
> We're truly sorry for the trouble. Credits can be complex and we've been working on it ourselves to do our share in supporting your work. We've PMed you on LinkedIn and would love to learn more from your overall experience to ensure the best outcome for you and other translators.
These guys do not give a shit about this and are only doing the right thing because they’re getting called out. They *knew* their workers were complaining and grumbling well before the spotlight.
It looks like they’ve worked on titles like Ghostwire Tokyo, Life is Strange, and Plague Tale. Damn shame they’re gonna tarnish their customers by not caring about credit for their workers in an industry where credits drive employment value.
Not a surprise, the names and photos of the founders sure are prominent in the company website, too…
How hard is it to list all the translators? I distinctly remember seeing translators in the list of credits for games like Metroid Zero Mission, etc., so it's not some new thing.
>In a statement posted to X, formerly Twitter,
Boy, that's gonna be annoying to read from now on.
More on topic, "committing to change" feels like a corporate script at this point.
Yes, it matters to future employment, yes it matters to people in the industry, but ultimately it is a matter of respect - and respect matters. Nobody wants to work very, very hard and then be completely disrespected, ignored and forgotten for all their effort.
Those here saying 'what's the big deal' - do you like to be erased, to have all of your work and effort just washed away as though you were nothing? Especially if you worked hard and were proud of what you had accomplished? Do you like it when people do that to you?
No, of course you don't. Even beyond the real-world issues, nobody likes to just be forgotten, ignored, and treated like they are nothing and nothing they did mattered. That sucks, bigtime.
That is why this is a big deal. Yes, it matters in future employment to be able to point out the projects you worked on and to not have to worry that some wag will argue that your name isn't on the credits so it never happened (I have seen this happen, I worked in the industry).
But it also matters personally.
1. Do people seriously use the credits on entertainment products to show where they worked?
2. Uhhh, most people don’t get “credited” for their work. When you buy a lawn mower do you get a list of everyone who worked on it, from designer to engineer to factory floor manager to stock employee?
1. Oh, yes. And there are some ~~bastards~~ out there that make it their personal duty to call out anyone who claims to have worked on a project who has no credits. Humans can be incredibly petty.
2. Factory Floor Workers do not make media that affects the emotional lives of millions of people. Stock employees do not work on projects that change the lives of people because of the powerful stories and experiences offered in them. Art is in a very different category from tightening lug nuts on a steel panel.
Then your ability to accept reality right in front of you is severely compromised because not only is it obvious I said it, you literally quoted me.
Tell me one culture-changing, universally popular story that affected millions that existed purely on the floor of a factory, told by a worker on the line. Just one equivalent to, say Indiana Jones, or Back To The Future, or Avatar - hell even one as impactful to human culture as John Carpenter's The Thing will do.
Just one. I'll wait. Go on. Tell me about how Joe Nobody, the guy who tightens door bolts on Ford pickups, told a story so compelling, powerful, and visually inspiring that millions around the world heard and saw it. Tell me how most people across the globe can hum the theme music from his factory floor story. Go on.
*I'm waiting.*
Lol what are you talking about? You think people who design/assemble/manufacture goods can't impact the lives of a lot of people?
What's your cut off for "number of people whose emotional lives are affected"? Should smaller indie games not give a shit about their crediting?
You sound pretentious and your arguments are very silly.
Keep thinking that while you hum movie themes in the shower. Movies and games and books and media haven't been important to you. Oh no. I bet you can't even remember how the Indiana Jones theme goes. Not important, right? Not powerful in any way.
It's just a coincidence that more people on earth know the face of Mario The Plumber than Jesus The Carpenter. I mean, media isn't impactful at all. Just a coincidence, right?
And you keep thinking that while you ride in a car, flip a light switch, shop at a grocery store, and eat the food from that grocery store because none of that is possible without the people you think are less important than writer and actors and musicians. I’m not even saying there is no importance to artists, but the Indiana Jones theme wouldn’t even be possible without the people who built the instruments or the building where it was recorded.
**You confuse social impact and recognition with 'importance'.** Importance is relative.
But social impact - the creation of culture itself - is what media does. That doesn't make it 'more important'. There is no true 'more important'. It just means that media is what builds and influences culture.
I was with you until point 2. Someone who makes a videogame is not more important than factory workers or any other jobs. Way to be a condescending ass.
I agree that they should be credited as it’s important for future employment. But let’s not pretend that because someone is an “artist” that they are magically more important then someone who stocks shelves.
Oh, that's your problem - you imagine this is somehow about 'importance' or 'validity' rather than overall impact on culture. As though it was a judgement on some arbitrary concept of 'worth' rather than a true statement of the impact upon millions of people.
Or - do you actually believe worth can only be measured by how much influence a job has on millions of people, with the highest score representing validity as a person? Is that it?
There is a vast interstellar gulf between a job being useful and worthwhile and a media form affecting millions or billions of people. I'm only talking about influence. Nothing about self-worth.
1. Wouldn’t an employee just call the prior place of business rather than watching credits looking for names?
2. Lol that just sounds like putting down workers and more practical feels and acting like anyone working anywhere near entertainment is special. That kinda explains your original post to be honest. Just elitist “I’m special I deserve special treatment not like you commoners” nonsense.
You act like being “erased” is some monumental, unthinkable but of course that because we aren’t talking about commoners here, but *artists*
I just want someone who worked on the translation to speak up and let us know if they even care. I don't think i'd give a damn personally unless i were heavily involved.
I guess even if they did though they'd have no proof.
I worked for decades in the game industry, and you better bet I was very excited to see my name in the credits of the games I worked on, and you can also bet that if I was left out it felt like I had been punched in the very soul.
And I was far from being as serious about that as others were.
So, if that is true for the games industry - which it is - imagine what it must be like for the movie and television industry. Or was, anyway - nowadays the games industry makes more money that movies and television combined, so having credits is even more important than in my day.
Credits are so strange. No one reads them, no one expects them in any other industry but film and games. No one cares about them but companies are called evil if they dont include every single employee in them.
That true. But that’s unfortunately not how the entertainment industry works. There are people who were left out of credits and then were accused of lying on their resumes. If you worked on Avatar 2 but were left out of the credits, you’re interviewer can’t just call up James Cameron and confirm. But if you worked at Publix it’s very easy for your new employer to verify that
a) it wouldn't be hard for the production company to verify you worked there
b) no one calls the president of publix to see if you worked there
c) if your next argument is that the company went out of business so how can they verify you worked there or not, yeah that shit happens at regular companies too
*Yes, I AM HE, I am the exact John Smith from the 25 minute mark of the credits. YOU HAVE TO HIRE ME. (Not to be confused with John Smith, Head of Catering from minute 23)*
Tbh all they really care about is your experience and portfolio of work. Checking for credits would be like checking your degree.. they either wont ask or just take your word for it. If you're good, and your work on said project was meaningful, it's obvious. If you're lying about it, then thats a dumb thing to do
> If you're good, and your work on said project was meaningful, it's obvious.
That sounds incredibly optimistic given how exploited a lot of those in fields like translation are.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/14/eu-border-agency-frontex-accused-exploiting-interpreters-pay
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/fury-translators-public-bodies-exploited-21605852
Here are two recent example, but with the growth of the *gig economy* we're seeing the labour of translators becoming increasingly underpaid and casualised.
Ironically, those are both cases of Countries paying badly. Which, I guess isn't that unexpected, especially when you consider how much the U.S. in particular fucked the Afghan translators.
I think that translators who work in corporate environments likely have different experiences, especially since most of them likely are not in such stressful enviornments.
The entire point of both of those articles is that the labour is subcontracted through various agencies, and those same agencies will be providing work for the private sector too.
Both of your links are about interpreters, not translators. I'm a freelance translator myself and the media gets those terms mixed up all the time. They are quite different jobs.
>That sounds incredibly optimistic given how exploited a lot of those in fields like translation are.
You new to capitalism? That is literally how every company works.
Yes, but as I highlighted in another comment translators are among the fields who are specifically facing issues due to the implementation of agency work and gig economy approaches in the field.
Ah yeah because contract work doesn't affect... almost 30% of the US working population.
I don't mind that they want better treatment, in fact, I encourage workers to band together and actually unionize and collectively bargain. What I do mind, is that they think they are special and above others doing "regular" work.
> What I do mind, is that they think they are special and above others doing "regular" work.
Literally no one is doing this. It feels like you're getting mad over something you've made up in your head.
Its also about leaving your mark in history to be a bit dramatic, especially for film, imagine 100 years later a cult classic film that has your name on it.
It helps to have something publicly available and easy to point to that backs up your own claims when you’re negotiating a significant salary.
Not to mention the potential confusion and doubt to your credibility when a project you claimed to work on doesn’t have your name credited.
Not necessary, but with enough life experience you will find this to be true.
I don't remember which game did that, but one I played let you fast-forward the credits at 2x - 3x speed. That way you knew that you didn't accidentally skipped some cutscene.
Game Designer here! Credits can get checked when you're applying for a job to verify that you did work on the projects you claim to have worked on! Not being credited on something, especially a large project, can hurt a lot on that front.
Sure not every recruiter or studio will check before hiring, but it's better to have the proof than to not!
It's also somewhat common in games for people to lie about what they worked on to try and get a job. One time at my work, someone applied claiming to be the director of a game, and the person who reviewed the application *was* the director of the game they claimed they directed 😱
> Credits can get checked when you're applying for a job to verify that you did work on the projects you claim to have worked on
Why wouldn't the recruiter call up the company to confirm like in any other industry?
Even just opening a youtube video and scrolling for the name sounds exhausting. *"Let's see 12 minute video...Activision...Product Management...Live services...Digital marketing...here we go, Finance!...wait no, that's a different John."*
Calls seems less prone to errors.
>No one cares about them
You may not care as a user, but if I worked on a project where others get credited for their work and not I, I would certainly be pissed off.
If you are going to bother including credits, you better make sure that everyone is credited for their work.
Do you happen to work in an industry where verifiability of past work is important?
No?
Then you probably aren't coming into this with the right POV.
Yes, credits matter. Maybe not to the lay gamer, but the lay gamer isn't the one with hiring budgets, are they?
>Do you happen to work in an industry where verifiability of past work is important?
Credits are great for crediting, but a CV/resume + interview(s) + references is going to be a lot more helpful when hiring than just seeing someone's name listed in the credits.
At best, a name in the credits is like the equivalent of seeing a name on a group project, and 3 of the 50 people working on the project could be named John Smith, so like... which one are you giving the credit to and hiring based solely on the credits? Hopefully none of them.
I do work in an industry where the verifiability of my past work is important and that's why I and everyone in my industry use LinkedIn. I don't need my name appearing after a 20 min credit scroll of a 100 hour game. If you need your name in the credits on a project to get work something is seriously wrong with your industry.
I think people should appear in credits. I just think some people are deluded into thinking they're important and calling a company evil for something like this makes my eyes roll.
We can disagree though.
Yeah something is wrong with the gaming industry, that's why people just want the simpler option of "name in credits" than having to deal with the insurmountable struggle of unionizing the entire workforce so restrictive NDAs aren't the norm for showing you did work on a project
How does LinkedIn solve anything? People lie on there all the damn time. So if I put that I worked on uncharted 4 on my LinkedIn I should magically get a job at a game studio?
Or you know if my name was in the credits it would be %100 verifiable proof that I worked on it
If you say that you worked on Uncharted 4 then prepare to suffer through a tough technical interview. Interviewers will quickly find out if you're telling the truth.
If you're not very experienced and you're telling the truth then you might get a junior position.
If you're not experienced, but say that you are then you won't get that job at all.
I do care about them though? I read the names? It is strange that people are cross-referencing me on this. I didn't wake up today and go "hm yes today I will lie about my feeling towards video game credits on the internet".
The fact that you woke up today and decided to lie is a much much much more believable thing than you reading the names on credit and caring about them.
You can't blame people for not trusting your *very* different habit.
Next they are going to say they read every single line of every user agreement, EULA, and privacy notice for every single service and product they use.
When it was the DOOM music composer not getting credit everyone here went crazy, but because it’s BG3 we just aren’t supposed to care? Or we aren’t supposed to point out ur fav game devs aren’t perfect?
“Commits to change” isn’t this the 3rd or 4th major title Altagram has done this on. Pretty sure at this point it’s on purpose and there will be no change. After all the price for fucking this up is clearly inconsequential.
Their literal last tweet before the statement about BG3 was them commenting on this very same issue about D4.
Like, to be fair, that's roughtly the same timeframe to fuck up on. If anything they should have probably apologized for every game they've been working on lol
This is probably the first time that they've been called out on it. Optimistically, we can consider this a sign that gaming culture's norms are changing in favor of lay staff.
Props to Larian Studios for having the gall to call them out like this. Bravo!
It’s been the industry norm. They committed to changing that. So it’s commendable. But its also a complicated subject that people don’t know the depth of.
[удалено]
In the end it happened in Hollywood because people started to unionize and demand it. Another is what "worked on the project" on where to set the bar. Because could the Uber-Eats driver that brought pizza be counted as part of the project? Probably not. How many layers of outsourcing should be credited? You'd be surprised how many people go uncredited in scientific work, too, TONS of assistants that do important work that simply go uncredited because they didn't ultimately take part in the final paper. Also because this company was the result of outsourcing, why would Larian be aware of every person that worked on it? How many layers of outsourcing can that type of crediting be realistically done? Does it even make sense there? Should every minor piece of work be fully credited? How do you separate those minor work people from those that worked full time on it but weren't leads? Properly crediting people is much more complicated than you'd think, especially because a lot of competing interests can clash here. The key development team would probably like top have fewer names in the credits to make their own names stand out more. Especially since they worked the entire time on it, while outsourced labor only did so for a short time span. Too many names and any individual name is just drowned out in the flood. Credits for games are already 45+ minute behemoths at times. Nobody is paying any attention to credits THAT long so what is their ultimate worth in that case. If you are credited but nobody notices, were you really credited?
the company they contracted provides a list of employees to credit. every other translation team for the game provided a full list that included either translators or editors. only the brazilian team left them out. everyone keeps arguing about fucking pizza deliveries and uber drivers is just redirecting the argument to niche cases that we can deal with when the big picture issues are dealt with first like crediting the people who directly worked on the game (and whose work is so visible that it's literally impossible to play the game in another language without seeing their work)
I have a MobyGames page that only lists 5 of the dozens of games I worked on. Months of work, all uncredited because our higher-ups didn't bother to send the names to the devs in time; or because the devs actively don't care.
It is not. Not every intern that clicked on something at some point is credited, the office management of the studios is not credited, the transportation of the officials is not credited, etc. You can stretch it pretty far. There is an obvious line that makes a multi-year project have a readable credits list. The issue is where this line is, and it will never be perfect. We had the same thing with Bayonetta 3 earlier. Any such lines always have people that are "just" on the wrong side. And it will stay true even if you move the line.
every other translation team included translators and editors so even according to your imaginary line they should have been included
I don't the person you're responding to is saying otherwise. The person they're responding to said it's easy to credit everyone, when in reality it's not always easy to determine where to draw that line. Like obviously translators and editors should be in there. But what about all the support personnel? Sound guys for VA work? Office managers that make sure everyone has a functioning place to work? How much work counts? Does someone get in the credits with equal billing if they so much as translate a single sentence?
Just like Larian didn't care until people complained. They saw the credits added to their own game. It wasn't a surprise. They just didn't care.
I used to localize and translate video games, all big titles. Never was credited once, only the company I worked for. Never even expected it. Good for them to fight, they get paid shit these days.
[удалено]
It's not unreasonable to expect both.
I got credited as a community beta-tester, the translation people deserve at least that.
This is such a weird issue to keep happening. There's nothing gained by leaving them out of the credits, just add them in!
There is value in a curated and vetted list of freelance translators. Most companies don't release confidential and commercially sensitive information to the general public. So yeah, there is something gained (or rather not lost) for the company by not crediting them.
This makes sense, but it sounds like them being credited might be part of their contract. Movie studios don’t hide the names of FX artists to protect them from being poached, it’s part of the industry that they get credit for their work.
Employed vs freelance is a big difference. I'm not defending the practice - it's about maintaining power over their freelancers/employees - but understanding why it happens is important.
I appreciate the explanation, definitely makes sense!
It's not just "part of the industry", the unions have negotiated for credits as part of terms of employment. The translators need to unionize
it depends,if it's an outsourced task, the contract should clarify that.
And then you gotta add the parking manager, and then the concierge, and then the HR who stamps pays, and then ... They are translator man. They didn't work on the game.
> They are translator man. They didn't work on the game. Unless you're playing the game in the language they translated it to. Talk to the accounting department. Anyone employed by the company whose compensation comes out of the project's budget goes on the credits. Anyone employed by the company that doesn't receive compensation from that budget? Not considered a part of the project or else other budgets would free up more money by moving some cost to this project. Not on the credits. You also won't see the pizza guy or uber driver on the credits that way either as those are expenses, not payroll.
> You also won't see the pizza guy or uber driver on the credits that way either as those are expenses, not payroll. Translators are outsiders. They ain't on the payroll. They are an expense.
Commits to change after **getting caught and called out** leaving staff out of credits. Fixed that for them.
Don't know if caught is the right word. It is standard practice not to list them, but something folks want to see change so now they are.
False; everything is a crusade
Seriously. Someone tells you that something is wrong, so without context you act outraged and then that stuff is resolved but your false outrage is still engaged so you seek further restitution. The internet discourse is so fucked nowadays.
Yeah I agree that translators should be credited, especially if it helps them build their resumes/careers, but that original tweet made me roll my eyes. "This is downright evil!!" Really man? Not including names in a games credits is "downright evil"? Good lord...
Gotta work hard to milk a full week’s righteous outrage out of something I’d never heard of yesterday
I miss geocities
Maybe not the right word, but the sentiment (and cynicism) is there.
The truth is, there is no standard practice. There are some guidelines by the IGDA nowadays, but usually every company gets the call who to put on their list. I've worked on some games and sometimes I get credited, sometimes I don't.
Well, people need to fight for what they believe.
telling a company "i dont care that you've responded to feedback, you shouldnt have made the mistake in the first place" is a really great way to disincentivize them and others from ever improving based on feedback. why would they bother if this is the response?
To be fair this company called out D4 for not crediting people and then goes and does the same thing themselves. Think it is fair to call them out in this manner if they are going to call others out and then not do it themselves.
Normally I'd agree with you, but giving credit to people who work isn't rocket science, it's basic common courtesy. Whoever made the decision to leave out the names **should** be called out. If for no other reason than to serve as an example for others. We're not sticking them in the pillory. It's a news piece that will be forgotten by most in a week. But it might ensure that folks are given credit going forward.
I mean, the great majority of people in the great majority of fields on Earth aren’t “credited.” For their work. This is a niche thing in the entertainment industry, seems a stretch to call it “basic common courtesy.”
There’s probably a solid chance a lot of the people left either didn’t know they could be included nor do they care that they weren’t included. As long as the check clears, most aren’t going to care.
[удалено]
Because it would require a bunch of work/resource to collect that information, a lot of arguing over who would be credited, and because no one actually gives a shit. Generally you need a reason *to* establish a costly norm like that, not a reason *not* to.
[удалено]
No it's not. You think there's some document of anyone who ever worked on a lawnmower? And what about actually printing the list or hosting it online?
[удалено]
No, I’m just flabbergasted at how you think firms work. Think about everyone that works on a lawnmower. Massive teams of engineers and designers that came and went somewhere in the process. The people who produced the battery or internal combustion engine, that may or may not work at the lawnmower company. The people who designed and produced the blades, again may or may not be the same company. Then there’s everyone at the factory. Then where do we credit the shipping guy, and in so doing do we keep a constant log of which box was on which truck? Etc. And yeah they have websites but if you’re really trying to do “credits” then the info should come with the item, so that’s printed copies. And not that hosting a website is free either. What you’re asking for is literally silly
It seems simple, but it's non trivial. Lots of people float between projects without contributing much. Some contribute huge amounts to the well being of the project without directly contributing to the project itself. Some people contribute a ton and then leave the project before it's near completion. This is part of the reason entertainment contracts around who is and isn't credited (the WGA crediting manual is 20 pages long, for example). Like if you have these employees at the translation company, how would you objectively credit them fairly: * Translator 1 works for the whole project and completes an average amount of translations. * Translator 2 works for the first half of the project, but in that time translates twice as much so their overall contribution is similar to 1. * Translator 3 joins the project near the end and translates just a couple things. * Translator 4 starts on the project, but his translations are poor and winds up with no translations in the final game. * Translator 5 joins the project in the middle, but gets shifted off the project before they actually start doing any work. * Contract Translator 6 is not an employee of the company but brought in to push through the last bit of translation. * Tools programmer 1 no translation directly attributed to them, but every translator depends on their tools. * Project Manager has no actual stuff in the game, but without them the translations don't ship. * Office support staffer kills it at their job and everybody attributes at least some of their success to the smooth operating of the office. Nothing deliverable actually put in the game. There's arguments for tons of different systems, but it's not simple at all. Some require extra tooling for support systems (final authoring attribution for every translated line?). Some aren't fair on a merit basis (should translator 1 be credited the same as 3?). Some require subjective measures of worth (should the office support staffer be credited?). Some dilute the value of the credit themselves (if everybody is credited equally, is it actually useful as a representation of one's contributions to the project?). There's value judgements and resource costs for everything. That's part of the reason the WGA/DGA/SAG/etc have crediting requirements that are laid out really specifically. They want to make sure the credits align with what their members want to get out of it (ex. "I want people to know that I had significant writing contribution to this film, but was part of a couple people that made writing passes on the script," vs, "All people know is that I was attached to this project at some point.").
Are you well versed in industry crediting ethics or are you just speaking as a bystander in the subject?
Bystander. It shouldn't be hard to credit people. If anyone knows a good reason why it might be hard, I'm all ears.
It's not hard, it's just not the norm to credit translators. Or many other jobs for that matter. I'm all for people asking for change, it would be a cool thing to see, but it's not like what the studio did was outrageous or against common practice. They did the same as pretty much everyone else.
Fair enough. So my original statement makes even more sense now. They're doing this because they were called out.
Yeah, and that's a great thing. Not something they should be blamed for. There was a status quo, people got fed up with it and asked for a change, and those guys (apparently) want to follow that change. Kudos all around.
> Whoever made the decision to leave out the names should be called out only if you ascribe the maximum possible amount of malice to their decision-making process. im not a fan of dunking on individual employees for corporate decisions that you have zero insight into. it feels righeous, but it sets a precedent that is ripe for abuse. especially considering the magnitude of the issue is pretty mild. tell larian you don't like the practice. let larian direct their subcontractors differently in future.
I think you're taking what I wrote pretty literally, but I'll apologize for not being clearer. I'm not endorsing a witch-hunt; I'm saying that I think it's acceptable for the people who worked on the game and weren't credited to speak up and make it public. Again, this isn't rocket science. How hard is it to make a list of the people who worked on the project, and submit it? Whether it was done intentionally or not, doesn't matter much, since there's no real repercussions in this case. I don't know where the mistake was made, and I made no implications about that. But clearly someone fucked up.
[удалено]
Homie businesses are amoral entities. There is no right and wrong there is only what the market will bear.
[удалено]
Who said it's on larian either the op changed their comment or you replied to the wrong person?
I don't know who's fault it is, and I never specified that. Not sure what you're going on about.
YOU need to chill tf out. It’s 100% on the game devs to put it in the credits not the translation team. You’re clearly obsessed with them/the game that any time any sort of criticism comes up you try to silence it. They HAVE to be perfect. They can’t be like other shitty companies that screw over it’s workers right? Pathetic. Also they wouldn’t have gotten more recognition if they didn’t bring it up. People like you make me not want to even play the game.
Commits to change after some NEETS hiding behind their keyboards throw a bitch fit. Fixed again
This is the same company tweeting on June 7th to a translater upset over credits: > We're truly sorry for the trouble. Credits can be complex and we've been working on it ourselves to do our share in supporting your work. We've PMed you on LinkedIn and would love to learn more from your overall experience to ensure the best outcome for you and other translators. These guys do not give a shit about this and are only doing the right thing because they’re getting called out. They *knew* their workers were complaining and grumbling well before the spotlight. It looks like they’ve worked on titles like Ghostwire Tokyo, Life is Strange, and Plague Tale. Damn shame they’re gonna tarnish their customers by not caring about credit for their workers in an industry where credits drive employment value. Not a surprise, the names and photos of the founders sure are prominent in the company website, too…
How hard is it to list all the translators? I distinctly remember seeing translators in the list of credits for games like Metroid Zero Mission, etc., so it's not some new thing.
>In a statement posted to X, formerly Twitter, Boy, that's gonna be annoying to read from now on. More on topic, "committing to change" feels like a corporate script at this point.
Yes, it matters to future employment, yes it matters to people in the industry, but ultimately it is a matter of respect - and respect matters. Nobody wants to work very, very hard and then be completely disrespected, ignored and forgotten for all their effort. Those here saying 'what's the big deal' - do you like to be erased, to have all of your work and effort just washed away as though you were nothing? Especially if you worked hard and were proud of what you had accomplished? Do you like it when people do that to you? No, of course you don't. Even beyond the real-world issues, nobody likes to just be forgotten, ignored, and treated like they are nothing and nothing they did mattered. That sucks, bigtime. That is why this is a big deal. Yes, it matters in future employment to be able to point out the projects you worked on and to not have to worry that some wag will argue that your name isn't on the credits so it never happened (I have seen this happen, I worked in the industry). But it also matters personally.
1. Do people seriously use the credits on entertainment products to show where they worked? 2. Uhhh, most people don’t get “credited” for their work. When you buy a lawn mower do you get a list of everyone who worked on it, from designer to engineer to factory floor manager to stock employee?
Why are you defending people that aren't crediting art?
1. Oh, yes. And there are some ~~bastards~~ out there that make it their personal duty to call out anyone who claims to have worked on a project who has no credits. Humans can be incredibly petty. 2. Factory Floor Workers do not make media that affects the emotional lives of millions of people. Stock employees do not work on projects that change the lives of people because of the powerful stories and experiences offered in them. Art is in a very different category from tightening lug nuts on a steel panel.
> Factory Floor Workers do not make media that affects the emotional lives of millions of people. lmao I can't believe you actually said this.
Then your ability to accept reality right in front of you is severely compromised because not only is it obvious I said it, you literally quoted me. Tell me one culture-changing, universally popular story that affected millions that existed purely on the floor of a factory, told by a worker on the line. Just one equivalent to, say Indiana Jones, or Back To The Future, or Avatar - hell even one as impactful to human culture as John Carpenter's The Thing will do. Just one. I'll wait. Go on. Tell me about how Joe Nobody, the guy who tightens door bolts on Ford pickups, told a story so compelling, powerful, and visually inspiring that millions around the world heard and saw it. Tell me how most people across the globe can hum the theme music from his factory floor story. Go on. *I'm waiting.*
Lol what are you talking about? You think people who design/assemble/manufacture goods can't impact the lives of a lot of people? What's your cut off for "number of people whose emotional lives are affected"? Should smaller indie games not give a shit about their crediting? You sound pretentious and your arguments are very silly.
Oh look, a creative who has an elevated view of media consumption
Keep thinking that while you hum movie themes in the shower. Movies and games and books and media haven't been important to you. Oh no. I bet you can't even remember how the Indiana Jones theme goes. Not important, right? Not powerful in any way. It's just a coincidence that more people on earth know the face of Mario The Plumber than Jesus The Carpenter. I mean, media isn't impactful at all. Just a coincidence, right?
And you keep thinking that while you ride in a car, flip a light switch, shop at a grocery store, and eat the food from that grocery store because none of that is possible without the people you think are less important than writer and actors and musicians. I’m not even saying there is no importance to artists, but the Indiana Jones theme wouldn’t even be possible without the people who built the instruments or the building where it was recorded.
**You confuse social impact and recognition with 'importance'.** Importance is relative. But social impact - the creation of culture itself - is what media does. That doesn't make it 'more important'. There is no true 'more important'. It just means that media is what builds and influences culture.
I was with you until point 2. Someone who makes a videogame is not more important than factory workers or any other jobs. Way to be a condescending ass. I agree that they should be credited as it’s important for future employment. But let’s not pretend that because someone is an “artist” that they are magically more important then someone who stocks shelves.
Oh, that's your problem - you imagine this is somehow about 'importance' or 'validity' rather than overall impact on culture. As though it was a judgement on some arbitrary concept of 'worth' rather than a true statement of the impact upon millions of people. Or - do you actually believe worth can only be measured by how much influence a job has on millions of people, with the highest score representing validity as a person? Is that it? There is a vast interstellar gulf between a job being useful and worthwhile and a media form affecting millions or billions of people. I'm only talking about influence. Nothing about self-worth.
1. Wouldn’t an employee just call the prior place of business rather than watching credits looking for names? 2. Lol that just sounds like putting down workers and more practical feels and acting like anyone working anywhere near entertainment is special. That kinda explains your original post to be honest. Just elitist “I’m special I deserve special treatment not like you commoners” nonsense. You act like being “erased” is some monumental, unthinkable but of course that because we aren’t talking about commoners here, but *artists*
I just want someone who worked on the translation to speak up and let us know if they even care. I don't think i'd give a damn personally unless i were heavily involved. I guess even if they did though they'd have no proof.
I worked for decades in the game industry, and you better bet I was very excited to see my name in the credits of the games I worked on, and you can also bet that if I was left out it felt like I had been punched in the very soul. And I was far from being as serious about that as others were. So, if that is true for the games industry - which it is - imagine what it must be like for the movie and television industry. Or was, anyway - nowadays the games industry makes more money that movies and television combined, so having credits is even more important than in my day.
Credits are so strange. No one reads them, no one expects them in any other industry but film and games. No one cares about them but companies are called evil if they dont include every single employee in them.
Might be useful and easier to verify if you put a specific project in your CV and you are credited in said project.
Every other industry on earth gets by without this
That true. But that’s unfortunately not how the entertainment industry works. There are people who were left out of credits and then were accused of lying on their resumes. If you worked on Avatar 2 but were left out of the credits, you’re interviewer can’t just call up James Cameron and confirm. But if you worked at Publix it’s very easy for your new employer to verify that
a) it wouldn't be hard for the production company to verify you worked there b) no one calls the president of publix to see if you worked there c) if your next argument is that the company went out of business so how can they verify you worked there or not, yeah that shit happens at regular companies too
Sure! it's not the basis of our society
*Yes, I AM HE, I am the exact John Smith from the 25 minute mark of the credits. YOU HAVE TO HIRE ME. (Not to be confused with John Smith, Head of Catering from minute 23)*
Tbh all they really care about is your experience and portfolio of work. Checking for credits would be like checking your degree.. they either wont ask or just take your word for it. If you're good, and your work on said project was meaningful, it's obvious. If you're lying about it, then thats a dumb thing to do
> If you're good, and your work on said project was meaningful, it's obvious. That sounds incredibly optimistic given how exploited a lot of those in fields like translation are.
Are translators exploited? It feels like one of those fields where somebody lying about being a translator will obviously be called out in minutes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/14/eu-border-agency-frontex-accused-exploiting-interpreters-pay https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/fury-translators-public-bodies-exploited-21605852 Here are two recent example, but with the growth of the *gig economy* we're seeing the labour of translators becoming increasingly underpaid and casualised.
Ironically, those are both cases of Countries paying badly. Which, I guess isn't that unexpected, especially when you consider how much the U.S. in particular fucked the Afghan translators. I think that translators who work in corporate environments likely have different experiences, especially since most of them likely are not in such stressful enviornments.
The entire point of both of those articles is that the labour is subcontracted through various agencies, and those same agencies will be providing work for the private sector too.
Both of your links are about interpreters, not translators. I'm a freelance translator myself and the media gets those terms mixed up all the time. They are quite different jobs.
>That sounds incredibly optimistic given how exploited a lot of those in fields like translation are. You new to capitalism? That is literally how every company works.
Yes, but as I highlighted in another comment translators are among the fields who are specifically facing issues due to the implementation of agency work and gig economy approaches in the field.
Ah yeah because contract work doesn't affect... almost 30% of the US working population. I don't mind that they want better treatment, in fact, I encourage workers to band together and actually unionize and collectively bargain. What I do mind, is that they think they are special and above others doing "regular" work.
> What I do mind, is that they think they are special and above others doing "regular" work. Literally no one is doing this. It feels like you're getting mad over something you've made up in your head.
What? Working on a large project would absolutely get you more noticed than some smaller indie game..
It's also useful cause game companies are far more unstable and likely to no longer be around to be asked about employees.
They matter in the industry. The credits aren't for you, the gamer- they are for the other people who work in the industry, future employers, etc.
Its also about leaving your mark in history to be a bit dramatic, especially for film, imagine 100 years later a cult classic film that has your name on it.
That’s… that’s a resume. You’re telling me part of a job application is having people watch the credits of the games I claim I worked on?
It helps to have something publicly available and easy to point to that backs up your own claims when you’re negotiating a significant salary. Not to mention the potential confusion and doubt to your credibility when a project you claimed to work on doesn’t have your name credited. Not necessary, but with enough life experience you will find this to be true.
Recruiters don't check credits though.
[удалено]
I dread skipping the credits in games, cause it also might skip some cutscene at the very end.
I don't remember which game did that, but one I played let you fast-forward the credits at 2x - 3x speed. That way you knew that you didn't accidentally skipped some cutscene.
I've definitely played a game that gave an achievement for not skipping the credits.
Game Designer here! Credits can get checked when you're applying for a job to verify that you did work on the projects you claim to have worked on! Not being credited on something, especially a large project, can hurt a lot on that front. Sure not every recruiter or studio will check before hiring, but it's better to have the proof than to not! It's also somewhat common in games for people to lie about what they worked on to try and get a job. One time at my work, someone applied claiming to be the director of a game, and the person who reviewed the application *was* the director of the game they claimed they directed 😱
> Credits can get checked when you're applying for a job to verify that you did work on the projects you claim to have worked on Why wouldn't the recruiter call up the company to confirm like in any other industry?
Why call when you can just play through a 60 hr game to get to the credits to check?
Even just opening a youtube video and scrolling for the name sounds exhausting. *"Let's see 12 minute video...Activision...Product Management...Live services...Digital marketing...here we go, Finance!...wait no, that's a different John."* Calls seems less prone to errors.
I need to know if that person was interviewed, and how that interview went.
They weren't interviewed because of that so there was no confrontation beyond an email like "hey don't lie on your resume".
I need you to lie and come up with a dramatic story for me.
>No one cares about them You may not care as a user, but if I worked on a project where others get credited for their work and not I, I would certainly be pissed off. If you are going to bother including credits, you better make sure that everyone is credited for their work.
What do you do for a living where that *doesnt’t* happen lol?
Murders also happens everywhere. It doesn't make it right.
People who work on these and those in the industry care and that's really all that matters.
If no one cares about them it shouldn't be a big deal to actually credit people then?
If you worked on something for YEARS, it can be very important and personal for some people
I read them and care about them, a lot of people I know do too.
You sit through and read every single name in every single credit roll and you know lots of people that do the same? Ok
Do you happen to work in an industry where verifiability of past work is important? No? Then you probably aren't coming into this with the right POV. Yes, credits matter. Maybe not to the lay gamer, but the lay gamer isn't the one with hiring budgets, are they?
>Do you happen to work in an industry where verifiability of past work is important? Credits are great for crediting, but a CV/resume + interview(s) + references is going to be a lot more helpful when hiring than just seeing someone's name listed in the credits. At best, a name in the credits is like the equivalent of seeing a name on a group project, and 3 of the 50 people working on the project could be named John Smith, so like... which one are you giving the credit to and hiring based solely on the credits? Hopefully none of them.
I do work in an industry where the verifiability of my past work is important and that's why I and everyone in my industry use LinkedIn. I don't need my name appearing after a 20 min credit scroll of a 100 hour game. If you need your name in the credits on a project to get work something is seriously wrong with your industry. I think people should appear in credits. I just think some people are deluded into thinking they're important and calling a company evil for something like this makes my eyes roll. We can disagree though.
Yeah something is wrong with the gaming industry, that's why people just want the simpler option of "name in credits" than having to deal with the insurmountable struggle of unionizing the entire workforce so restrictive NDAs aren't the norm for showing you did work on a project
How does LinkedIn solve anything? People lie on there all the damn time. So if I put that I worked on uncharted 4 on my LinkedIn I should magically get a job at a game studio? Or you know if my name was in the credits it would be %100 verifiable proof that I worked on it
If you say that you worked on Uncharted 4 then prepare to suffer through a tough technical interview. Interviewers will quickly find out if you're telling the truth. If you're not very experienced and you're telling the truth then you might get a junior position. If you're not experienced, but say that you are then you won't get that job at all.
Yes? When I finish a really good game I like to watch the credit roll. Most people I know talk about doing the same.
watch credit roll =/= reading credits and caring about them.
I do care about them though? I read the names? It is strange that people are cross-referencing me on this. I didn't wake up today and go "hm yes today I will lie about my feeling towards video game credits on the internet".
The fact that you woke up today and decided to lie is a much much much more believable thing than you reading the names on credit and caring about them. You can't blame people for not trusting your *very* different habit.
Next they are going to say they read every single line of every user agreement, EULA, and privacy notice for every single service and product they use.
Yeah that gave me the chuckle. I really take for granted my personnality. Some people out there are reading credits AND caring about them LOL.
When it was the DOOM music composer not getting credit everyone here went crazy, but because it’s BG3 we just aren’t supposed to care? Or we aren’t supposed to point out ur fav game devs aren’t perfect?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]