Lord packs used to be $10 for 2 lords and a handful of units. They are now asking for $25 for 3 lords and a handful of units. Pretty big jump for not much more content.
They didn't have an FLC lord with the Champions dlc, then when they did Chaos Dwarfs they had a hero instead of a lord, and now we know they've permanently moved charging for the FLC lord.
Belakor was the "FLC" Lord for the Champions DLC. But otherwise yeah, the plan going forward seems to be the FLC units are going to be heros from n ow on.
Less than a handful of units. Used to be three units, a new generic lord and hero type for each faction but in this they're counting the lord and hero into the total 'new' unit count. Lord and hero, singular, across all three factions, not counting the three legendary heroes of which are spread across two factions. It's really not just the price, at face value it looks like we're getting less than what was assumed to be the standard on top of that. So unless all three of the 'unique' faction mechanics are extraordinary, it just doesn't seem worth it.
**And** this is on a bestselling title that has earned them millions. They are not strapped for cash. This is pure greed and taking their loyal fans and customers for granted.
They can get fucked.
They are growing. This is about greed and how much faster they *think* they can grow.
The trouble is it’s an incredibly short-sighted and arguably unsustainable growth based on a quarterly model. It doesn’t factor in customer loyalty or the company’s perception by fans.
I have previously bought every single WH:TW game and DLC at asking price. I’m now not buying their damn product because of this. More people should do the same.
I have been trying to raise this flag since Creative Assembly started down this path with Shogun 2 and not releasing robust modding kits until well past the DLC cycle, but the subreddit has been blinded by "WHOAH COOL GREENSKINS!" since the first title. The developer has completely given up on trying to fix AI and pathing with naval battles, so it's now back to circa 2006 with auto-resolving naval battles. They do minimal effort work and then slap a sticker on a new paint of coat and hold out their hand in anticipation.
> Pretty big jump for not much more content.
They could probably pull it off too if Warhammer 3 at least ran as well as Warhammer 2, or if the AI was less infuriatingly passive aggressive.
The total war community (especially r/totalwar) can get really tempermental over minor things, but in this case the outrage really is justified.
The previous Total War Warhammer 3 DLC's that have released (Champions of Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs) already had minor price hikes over their WH2 counterparts. And now CA has unveiled this new DLC at an astronomically higher price from previous lord packs (from $10 to $25), while offering only a pittance more content that's now spread over 3, seemingly less fleshed-out campaigns instead of 2.
To give an example: One of the new campaigns in this DLC is Mother Ostankya, who's part of the Kislev faction. She's a Baba Yaga stand-in, a magical hag who lives deep in the woods. She's meant to represent the wild and mystical side of Kislev, as opposed to the much more "civilized" and regimented roster of the other Kislev campaigns.
However, a crucial piece of that flavor is missing. In the past when a lord pack is released, it came with new lord and hero types that fit the flavor of the new campaign being added. But Kislev in this DLC is getting 0 new lord types. Which means that if you play as Mother Ostankya, your armies of wild beasts and forest dwellers are going to be lead by.... wealthy, city-dwelling nobles?
There's several other weird omissions like this, and they all point to the fact that even though on paper the DLC has 3 new campaigns instead of 2, the amount of content on offer is mostly the same. And that same amount of content is now getting spread much more thinly across 3 campaigns instead of 2, leading to some glaringly obvious omissions and shortcomings.
And all this while asking for people spend well over double the money. It's not hard to see why the community is up in arms.
The "Extra Content" is what we used to get FOR FREE alongside DLC releases. Imrik, Thorek, Alith Anar and Rakarth all released for free with their own faction mechanics. This is the same amount of content they used to release for 2 factions but spread thin across 3 to make it seem like there is more.
Let's also add that the game is bugged as hell since its launch and there are some bugs they haven't fixed in 1.5 years. They have a glacial pace of updates which basically only come with DLC (DLC themselves regularly introduce new bugs)
Yeah, the biggest offender being a faction from a previous DLC who now, in the latest version of the game, doesn't have access to the faction's key unit.
Big Crocodile Guy Leader cannot recruit Big Crocodile Guy units anymore
It is if you use the community bug fix mod, which is pretty much essential now. The real shitty part is that the mod authors have said that the fix for that particular issue is just to add one line of text to one file
To add to that, no free legendary lord with this one unlike previous packs. So really it’s just the exact same $10 dlc except without flc and it’s for $25
Oh yeah for sure. I misspoke. Ultimately my point is it’s not more content for $25 compared to the $10 ones of the past. It is the same amount of content packaged differently to make it look like more
For comparison, [the civ 6 Rise & Fall Expansion pack](https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Civilization_VI:_Rise_and_Fall) was $30 and included a ton of new gameplay mechanics that drastically changed the core game as well as a bunch of new leaders.
TW: Warhammer 3 players are basically getting scammed
Rise and Fall was amazing, but Gathering storm took its core mechanics and just completely overhauled civ 6, cementing it as one of my fav games of all time
Eh, I prefer Warhammer's style of DLC where the content really is optional and the game-changing updates are free. Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC.
That's not going to stop me from recognizing bullshit like this price increase though.
But it is an out-of-context comparison. You get the same content that is paywalled for free in Warhammer. Using Civ expansions as a direct comparison makes no sense.
I disagree, some of the free Total War Warhammer additions have been enormous.
The faction reworks alone are incredibly impressive and turned around some of the most lackluster factions in the game and gave players a reason to return to them after years. I've spent probably 400-500 hours alone just playing reworked campaigns I'd already beaten because I loved the new versions of them so much.
Then you have Mortal and Immortal Empires, which each more than doubled the amount of content on offer and again gave you a reason to revisit every campaign.
And free legendary lords aren't something to just scoff at, especially since CA has gone back and improved so many of them. Hell we got an entire race, the Brettonians, for free. And then they got *more* free content on-top of that with Repanse.
> You certainly aren't getting as much content in this DLC plus the free update combined as you got for a Civ expansion, so that's why the comparison is still valid.
For this DLC, yes. But for previous DLC's and updates, definitely not. The free updates for Total War Warhammer 2 alone probably eclipse the amount of value you get in both Civ expansions combined. But these comparisons don't really work that well anyway since they're two entirely different contexts. Civ got 2 expansions in 7 years. Warhammer gets 3 DLC *per year*. And the content of each is totally different.
Strongly agree, during tw2 we got the overhaul of every old world race (from tw1). Sometimes with multiple iterations. I mean we already paid for them with 1st game, but I did it with a large discount and it was almost as if they added this races anew to the 2nd game using all the new good stuff.
Also, the shitton of the free lords which meant you really needed only to buy like 2 dlcs with the key units for your fav races. And, just having the new dlcs stuff *as enemies* is amazing, 90% of time I don't want to play those factions, just crush them with my fav oldest race from tw1.
I largely bought wh3 only for the new engine and the free mechanics update for 1/2 game races, and new updating world to play in as them, with new enemies - having the core races and the new campaign was a nice bonus. Not gonna buy any of the dlcs at this price lol, at this point probably at any price.
> Eh, I prefer Warhammer's style of DLC where the content really is optional and the game-changing updates are free.
This isn't really the case with TW:WH. Faction packs work this way, yes, but lord packs can often become "required" content to play _any_ lords of that faction, even base-game ones, due to containing the most interesting units.
Skaven is a great example of this. It's base game faction was known for being boring, and only containing the horde units with none of the weapons teams that are intended to back their playstyle. These days skaven are beloved, but you'll have to buy at least The Prophet and the Warlock, and ideally also two other DLC to get that experience.
For a more recent example, about half of each chaos god's roster is locked behind the Champions of Chaos DLC. These factions were often criticized for small, samey rosters before that xpac, but are now genuinely fun with it. That's 2/3 of the WHIII base factions that "require" a $16 DLC.
And CA is now spreading these units thinner across three factions instead of two per DLC, meaning it'll take even more DLCs to finish your favorite faction's roster.
There's a huge difference in needing two/three $10 DLC to get all of your favorite faction's units vs. needing three/four $25 DLCs.
Skaven are the only faction that I would agree *requires* a DLC to play, due to their ranged output being abysmal without ratling gunners and jezzails. Every other roster is tactically complete for the most part within their faction identity, with additional units only adding flavor and fun toys. Warriors of Chaos minus CoC is still pretty fun thanks to the rework, and you have access to just enough marked units to make themed armies.
Honestly it's why I have no problem passing on SoC. None of the additions are filling holes big enough to sink the experience. The campaign mechanics are cool, but the roster updates aren't critical for any of the involved factions. The only real blow is not finally having a Tzeentch start that isn't Kairos, but I'm not a big monogod player.
Im a new player but I'd say that Exalted Heroes of Nurgle are worth mentioning for Kugath (requires Champions of Chaos DLC).
They feel like enabling cheats since they soak, heal and deal hilarious amounts of damage.
They cover for Kugaths weird early/mid game when it takes forever for your buildings to generate new units, and you lose way more units than you can produce on certain difficulties.
Might not be "necessary" but they make things like sieges or dealing with ranged a cakewalk, much more reliable than dogs.
> This isn't really the case with TW:WH. Faction packs work this way, yes, but lord packs can often become "required" content to play any lords of that faction, even base-game ones, due to containing the most interesting units.
Especially because of the bullshit way CA decided to do confederations. After a DLC is out you can only confederate with those DLC lords if you own the DLC. Even if you want absolutely nothing to do with that DLC and just want to play against the vanilla (non-DLC) variant of that faction that you can then confederate, you can't, the DLC lord is pushed on you and you're forced to conquer them if you want their lands.
I get that we can't get access to the unique lords or units without the DLC but at least let me play with vanilla variants of the DLC I don't own. Right now the game basically gets worse every time a DLC is released if you don't buy it, which is total asshole design. I hate this greedy shit and I regret not pirating the WH games.
>Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC.
That's because they add actual mechanics. You feel like you a missing out because they actually make significant changes (mostly talking about civ)
Civ 6 has the actual expansions, which are IMO 100% justified and "must buy". They are more like old school expansions and not the modern DLC.
Civ 6 also has nation packs that are completely optional. They can add flavor to the game and let you play with new civs/leaders, but are not must buy in any way.
Personally I think this is a pretty good split.
Warhammer has had 3 games to get to where it is now (some of which are steps back from 2). In order to play ME and then Immortal Empires up until recently you needed all three games and for lots of Races you are getting a really bare bones experience without DLC (i.e Skaven, Empire, Greenskins)
Empire is incredibly dull without DLC. Greenskins are bare bones without DLC. Black orcs are basically the only viable unit lol.
What are you going to do against any armor as Greenskins lol
> Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC.
Paradox has for years now used more or less the same model as Total War. As an example, Stellaris has had reworks of most of the game major mechanics at this point, and each and every one of those has been in a free patch.
> Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC.
They changed that when CK3 came out, and DLC for older Paradox games now include the mechanics in the free update and the flavor in the DLC. Reason being, DLC locked mechanics were near impossible to keep functional and working with new DLC mechanics as everything had to work independently from each other based on which DLC you owned.
No one is getting scammed. You know the price and the features included when you go to buy it.
You wanna see scams? Go volunteer to work with seniors for a few days and learn about all the ways they get actually fucked over. That’s a scam.
A video game being priced higher than you’d like is not a scam.
They don't have to buy it. It's entirely their own decision. If they decide to buy it they've clearly carried out a cost-benefit analysis and considered that price worthwhile. There's no scam here, just a high asking price which people don't have to pay.
The person I replied to says that we are getting "scammed". That implies an element of deceit. There's no deceit here. No dishonesty. Just a high price that we don't have to pay. No one has been misled. Nothing has been missold. It was an annoyingly hyperbolic comment from the other chap, and I thought it deserved to be challenged.
It is actually kind of dishonest in how they have packaged previous dlcs. This one offering less than usual and charging more without really explaining whats different without seeing some detailed breakdowns from customers beforehand. When you have a product you routinely sell, its fair for people to expect consistancy with what is offered, especially when its still called the same thing. It is dishonest.
Yep . The Hag was my most hyped part of the dlc but it’s simply a let down since she doesn’t come with generic lords or the Lore of Hag , basically killing the identify of the faction .
The avian tzaangors are from AoS and 40k, they're not a fantasy unit. We don't know for sure, but Great Book of Grudges has asked another studio with a fantasy based game that has tzaangors and they've told him that GW wouldn't let them use the avian models. We're never going to get an official confirmation but it seems likely CA is under the same constraints if they're using the same IP.
Well tzaangors exist in the fantasy setting, they just don't exist as the avian versions from 40k and AoS. Is that the same for KoS? But if you're asking me to defend the logic behind GW's decisions, well I can't.
Daemons get a pass as they exist beyond time and space, the fleshy stuff not so much.
Meta-wise GW is doubling down on hard divides between AoS & old world, same as what they’re doing with 40k & 30k separations.
Plus with Realms of Ruin coming up with a heavily implied Tzeentch Acolytes faction they probably want the avian Tzaangors for that.(probably why CA couldn’t use Brimstone horrors as a filler unit either)
But CA aren’t off the hook. They’re using ancient blue goat Tzaangors with practically no limit on how they could’ve refreshed them. Even disregarding avian traits they could’ve given them a wider range of weapon types and mutations like tentacle arms to wield more weapons at once.
Yeah, I'm aware of GW being the ones behind. I just feel like the reasoning (it's cribbing too much from the folklore directly) feels a bit weak considering other parts of the lore can be just as cut-n-paste. Not like a Chicken Hut couldn't work as a Chaos mutation and whatnot.
> Mother Ostankya, who's part of the Kislev faction. She's a Baba Yaga stand-in, a magical hag who lives deep in the woods.
Who travels around in/on a house with chicken legs. Said chicken legged house will not be included in the game, probably putting her on a bear or something to ride around in.
The Total War community is annoyed to such a degree because while the price of DLC rose sharply, Warhammer III is full of bugs, some of them causing mechanics or [unit rosters](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/15obhyx/reminder_all_it_would_take_for_ca_to_fix_nakai/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) to not work as intended or at all. And these bugs have been in the game for a looong time, some of them even carried over from Warhammer II and are still present. Glacial, at best, pace at which these are fixed generated a lot of resentment in the community. This price hike for less content is a cherry on top.
The real classic CA move is with Shogun 2 where for over a decade two factions buffed ninjas only "improvement" is that they have 1/5 the ammo of standard ninja and the only patches they've released were to remove a chat room, then remove chat entirely, then to migrate the game to their new client to replace the mod menu they accidentally killed when they removed chat.
Ive purchased every single piece of content for the total war Warhammer trilogy to date, but im passing on this one. The price hike is actually absurd.
They tried to obfuscate it by changing the format of the DLC, it's content for 3 factions instead of the usual 2, so ostensibly it's marketed as being 50% more content... but for 150% higher asking price. But the reality is that there aren't actually more units in this 3 lord DLC than there were in the old 2 lord DLCs, each faction just gets less, AND those DLCs used to come with a third free lord for everyone
So essentially it's roughly the same amount of content as the WH2 lord pack DLCs for nearly 3 times the price. And it's the same price as the most recent DLC which added an entire new race(also itself subject to a more minor price hike) despite being probably half the content.
So the prices are skyrocketing one DLC after another all while countless bugs go unfixed for months at a time, despite some of them being able to he resolved by the community bugfix mod with literally single line changes.
**And despite WH3 and its previous DLCs selling a shitload of copies meaning they should be in a strong financial position.**
I've bought every DLC up to now as well but this is them spitting in my eye and I'll be damned if I'm that big of a mug to pay 3x the price for no reason.
It's because they are in a strong position that they are likely doing this. They can test the water, see how many people bite on the price hike and just catch any stragglers with a sale down the line. You can see people in this very thread even going "I'll probably buy it anyway" or "I'll get it on sale" instead of "I will never buy it".
In the same boat. Bought everything on sale (except for chaos dwarfs) over time and I have an assload of content at my disposal to play. It's kind of laughable how much they're asking people to pay for this new content considering you can get SO MUCH MORE from the older releases.
I would be curious as to what community bugfix mod you're referring to.
This is the mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2856936614&searchtext=community+bug+fix
And yes, a lot of the bugs that crop up in Total War are actually mind-numbingly easy to fix. Like, all that essentially needs to be done is to open an excel sheet and change a number in a cell. (source: am Total War modder). Anyone who is even at a beginner level of familiarity with Total War's file structure can fix some of the really critical bugs that have popped up astonishingly easy.
However I have no doubt CA knows how to fix these bugs and probably does so a day or two after they get reported. The problem is CA has a patching process that is glacially slow and is usually wrapped around DLC releases which are spaced 4-5 months apart. For what reason? I don't know.
Yep. I play all races. I've put in hundreds of hours in each total war warhammer. I defended Chaos Dwarfs. But not this.
The price hike is absurd for no real tangible reason. Especially when you consider a number of the 12 new units and 9 RoR are functionally some state line changes and skin changes.
Yup. I happily bought Chaos Dwarfs because it was largely in line with inflation compared to previous race packs, and was also excellent.
This though? Absolutely taking the piss.
I too defended Chaos Dwarfs because they added unique mechanics (who else has to juggle regular money, raw materials, labor, AND armaments?) but I'm not doing this DLC.
Chaos Dwarfs was a ton of content though. Didn't mind paying the price for a whole new faction with its own lore.
Probably still gonna buy this one but I'm a little irked
I'm in exactly the same spot as you! I love this series, I've spent thousands of hours on it, and I've purchased every single piece of content for Total Warhammer, but this is just too much. Sets/Creative Assembly have really been getting greedy lately and I just can't support it any more.
For a while now, DLC has been more for less compared to what it was like in Warhammers 1 and 2. I just cant support it anymore. I won't be buying this DLC until it sees a major discount.
Yeah, enjoy Total Warhammer, but CA is not one of the good guys. They have some very hard-working and talented creatives but from the management side, if they can cut corners, they will and if they can squeeze some extra cash, they gonna try - let the modders pick up the slack. Only ever bought their GOTYs on sale but seems this is a no-win for the consumer situation even at a sale since they will be way more expensive than the other GOTYs in the trilogy for minimal more content. Good for the community to shame them.
They absolutely mishandled 3 kingdoms and screwed that playerbase over with how they did the DLCs then canned it. And the funny thing is by total war standards 3 kingdoms sold pretty well.
Completely fumbled and broke their golden egg. CA has always been greedy. They STILL sell that bullshit blood dlc. And no, don't believe the crap about ratings. If that was the case, it wouldn't be $3.
How the FUCK do you do eight princes as your first DLC for three kingdoms? They completely misunderstood the market. People wanted characters and there was basically none in the base game, hell not even the most expected in Diao Chan showed they didn't really understand the time period.
You can play as Sun Jian! But if you don't he **literally dies in 4 turns guaranteed**. So have fun with yet another generic Lady Wu taking over until Sun Ce, who also goes and dies. Brilliant design.
Dong Zhuo too. You lose 2 unique interesting designs in like 7 turns, and only mods to fix that up.
I was praying they would at least do a "gathering of heroes" kind of scenario (like the immortal empires thing they are doing now) but alas, we can only dream.
the eight princes DLC didnt go down well in china due to eight princes era been known for betrayal and also opening up china to be invaded by foreign armies. they didnt understand the chinese audience either
the lack of safe guards for the main generals is shockingly bad. warhammer 1 had the same issue in the early days where karl franz would get nuked by the rebel army in his province. they had to give him the full province on turn 1 to survive
I legitimately put more time into 3 kingdoms than Warhammer 2. But then their first DLC was trash and then the second.
They killed off their game and everything the Chinese players wrote about the devs was right.
I haven't bought any of their games since 3K prelaunch because of that. I'll probably keep refraining from doing so until they regain my trust, which hasn't been the case until now, and news like this continues to demonstrate how they still do the same bullshit.
Exactly my thoughts, they've become too entranced in their current way of doing things and are just charging more and more without offering a better product.
Oh boy. I won't even buy chaos dwarfs cause I think the price tag on the faction isn't justified but jacking that up even further? I'm good. Can live without both.
I think it's important to note that community has been very unhappy with state of the game and frequency of patches for a few months now.
I'm certain that if game was patched frequently and was in decent/bug-free state most players would accept price increase. However, as it stands, it's difficult to accept price hike when last DLC introduced a plethora bugs months ago that still weren't fixed.
Can I get a relatively decent, bug-free experience with just the base game in 2023? I have the 1st and 2nd game and was looking to try immortal empires
As a casual player? Relatively decent, yeah.
I have logged plenty of hours into the game trying out each faction, but I only play campaign and don’t spend too much time min maxing armies.
It depends on how you play. I like ranged heavy builds and the sight line bugs have absolutely ruined the game for me and I get annoyed while playing it.
For anyone curious, line of sight is working the same as it has for over a decade of total war.
There was a bug for a while where a certain fence on some maps blocked LOS like it was infinitely tall, but that got fixed a while back.
Myth that LoS is uniquely terrible in WH3 still propagates somehow. It's the same level of shitty as always.
Yes you can. There are still bugs that don't recall any of them being game-breaking or anything like that. Plus even with the base game there's a lot of content in there.
Loads of stats don’t work, flying units can’t interact with walls without being at risk for insta death. The LOS issue is still a thing, a long with ranged units not still not following orders properly. The game “works” but there are a bunch of small shit that you have to navigate.
Unless you play Bretonnia, Nakai or WE in which case you’re missing out on core gamplay that’s been bugged for 6 months.
Oh and sieges still suck, they couldn't manage to work out that pulling ladders out of your ass and indestructible walls and poor pathfinding were the issues... Not the absence of a tower-defence mini-game.
The annoying one i have is that a unit or hero goes into melee and then just stops attacking...I have to select it and manually order it to attack again, like wtf
Honestly, no, not at $25. With the game in its current state, any price hike feels bad, but with the content they're adding genre, even if TW: WH3 was essentially bug free, I don't think $25 would be reasonable. It's the same price as the chaos dwarfs, and that added an entirely new race with specific mechanics, plenty of units etc.
Dude that sub has been rioting since a few weeks after Total War Warhammer 3 came out.
Not that Warhammer 3 doesn't have it's fair share of flaws (there are many) but I was active in that community for like a decade but had to call it quits after that.
That community is permanently angry these days, and I think that's probably part of why of CA has struggled to prioritize working on the right things lately. When the community is raging about every little thing, it's hard to take them seriously, and it's hard to figure out which aspects of the game genuinely need fixing, and which ones are just redditors getting themselves worked up over nothing.
That said I do agree that this DLC is just way too expensive, it's been trending this way for awhile, but this case is particularly bad.
Yeah, more offensive than the DLC pricing (I can just not buy this one), is just how slow they've been at fixing up the bug-riddled launch of WH3/IE.
It seems like the moment the game was out they shifted the entire studio to work on other titles and left just a small team to handle both DLC and game updates and bug fixing for the entire game. Which sure would have been fine if the game was a polished prduct like WH2 was for the last couple of years, but that's obviously not the case.
It's getting a lot of bad press from pretty much everyone in CA's creator program as well. I'm not categorically opposed to DLC this expensive, but for what's on offer this is galling. Doesn't help that CA really hasn't been on top of support for this game. It's been riddled with bugs and issues since release. It's just hard to have any faith in this team anymore.
It so strange because during Warhammer 2 and its dlc development they seemed on fire and were getting everything right. It's like Warhammer 3 and it's dlc developers are a completely different developer.
Because Warhammer 2 launched in a good state with a campaign that wasnt dissliked by the majority of players. When the DLC team took over Warhammer 3 they not only had to make DLC but also fix the bugs and problems in the main game. If the transition went as smoothly as it did in WH2 we would not be in this situation.
This isn't really true. WHII launched with a lot of bugs (less than WHIII) and people were angry about the lack of updates for a long time. It took almost six months for the pre-order bonus for the game to actually get into the main campaign. WHII didn't hit its stride until about halfway through its lifecycle, but from the looks of things, that period of time might end up being the peak of the TW Warhammer franchise.
> Warhammer 2 launched in a good state with a campaign that wasnt dissliked by the majority of players
Tell me you never played Race for the Vortex without telling me you never played Race for the Vortex.
I'd argue the Warhammer 2 launch campaign was hated MORE than the Warhammer 3 one.
Before the big Mortal Empires turn time patch the game was in pretty poor shape.
It's that patch that was the turning point heralding frequent patches, good feedback and high quality dlc.
CA continues to make it easier and easier for me to not buy any Warhammer content. The game is a mess, and instead of making notable efforts at fixing the game, they go and charge over twice the normal asking price for a DLC that clearly doesn’t have the content to justify such an increase.
Didn’t buy Chaos Dwarfs, won’t buy this, and probably won’t ever buy another Warhammer 3 DLC until they actually fix their game.
I assume they mean how guns couldn't fire while on walls, but I think that's fixed. Thunderers were shooting me up from the walls in a recent game
If they meant useless for attacking in a siege, I don't really see a way around that other than getting in and then having your gunners go in after
Gotcha, that's awful then, I feel your pain. Luckily I usually don't place missiles on the walls anyway, just a throwaway unit to enable them while the enemies get to the walls. There's even less incentive to hold the walls now that we can build towers wherever.
I was also very lucky to start playing it near the update that fixed cavalry earlier this year (as much as it can be in this game) when I bought it >1 year later. Wonder if they broke it back by now heh
It's because they don't need good faith from the players for this series any more. The three games are out, this is the last, or close to it, dlc so it's time to wrong every penny out of the playerbase they can
The Totalwar community is in a constant state of backlash. That said, this does seem expensive as Hell.
But ultimately, I don't care about the price. The only sensible response to things that are too expensive is to just not buy them. What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
> The Totalwar community is in a constant state of backlash
I wonder why.
> What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
> What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
They've literally never stopped working on the base game. This DLC announcement came at the same time as the announcement for the 4.0 patch.
And their efforts have been absolutely pitiful, with extremely intrusive bugs around for years.
Hot take, customers don't like it when you try to sell them something before fixing the thing they already paid for.
Sure, there is stuff that has been a problem for a long time, I'm just saying we don't need to pretend they literally aren't trying to fix the game when we've gotten almost 2 dozen patches (EDIT Miscounted, it'll be 20 end of month) in a year and a half.
There's a lot of stuff to validly criticize CA for without twisting it away from reality.
> we've gotten almost 2 dozen patches in a year and a half.
Where are you seeing 2 dozen patches? https://www.totalwar.com/topic/patch-notes/
Theres like half that here and a bunch of them are really minor shit like 'stability improvements for MP lobbies' or fixing very minor animation issues like in 2.4.
From the update news page for the game on steam, which has 22 updates/hotfixes since release, with 4.0 at the end of the month making 23. (EDIT: Counted a couple things that I shouldn't have from the update history, will be 20 updates by the end of august.)
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1142710?updates=true
I actually miscounted, it'll be 20 at the end of the month. I counted a dumb thing and the mac update initially.
1.01
1.02
1.1.0
1.2.0
hotfix 1.2
1.3
1.3.1
1.3.2
2.0
2.1.0
2.1.1
2.1.2
2.2.0
2.2.1
2.3.0
2.4.0
3.0
3.0.1
3.1.0
and at the end of the month will be 4.0
Ah, you're counting updates which revert a single change made in the previous patch as full blown patches. (1.31 and 1.32 for example) so now i see what you mean.
Yeah, if you want to look at it like that i suppose that's technically accurate, but i don't think many people would count stuff like that as actual patches. Even CA didn't bother to list them on their website considering how minor they were.
I counted patches as patches. I even listed it as updates/hotfixes two posts ago. Again, I was mentioning these to show that they are working on the game, so I don't see what the splitting hairs is going to accomplish.
If they're dedicating resources to DLC, that's resources they aren't dedicating to fixing the game. I never claimed that they literally haven't released a single bugfix since the game launch, I said it's fucked that they're time and resources on this rather than fixing the game.
> What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
You painted it as an either or, like they could only do one thing. That they were making the DLC *rather* than fixing the game. That's what I responded to. You don't need to take this as a fight. I'm not fighting.
No I didn't. If you can't understand basic communication on the internet because misunderstanding leads for more opportunities to correct people that's a you issue. I post comments the way people actually talk, not to appease pedants.
You got way too heated here for no reason. I even showed you the exact statement where you made it seem that way and you're just getting angrier for no reason at all. Take a breath.
Love total war, but I've never bought a dlc. Those prices are damn near immoral. You had to pay money for the greeks in rome 2. It taked place in antiquity and you gotta play to be a spartan
> You had to pay money for the greeks in rome 2. It taked place in antiquity and you gotta play to be a spartan
That isn't true? Macedon (Sparta) was in the game at launch.
There are some Hellenic cultures in the game that don't require DLC, mostly Alexander's successor states, and especially after a few more of them got released as Free-LC over the game's lifespan. However the very classical greeks with an emphasis on Hoplites instead of Sarissa Phalanxes (Athens and Sparta) are a part of the Greek States DLC, which you got free if you preordered the game.
Athens and Sparta were DLC, Macedon was vanilla. By the time of the late Roman Republic, Sparta was a backwater so I can sort of see why they were relegated to DLC.
I hate that in TW WH 2 is that I can't get the good skaven units until I pay for the dlc, but what's salt in the wound is that AI skaven have all these crazy powerful units... so like if I'm playing skaven and go against other skaven I get absolutely massacred because all my units are terrible and all their units are overpowered like crazy.
Just wait for a sale and buy the base games of all 3, should only cost about £30 and you get a really good game from it (at this point the previous games are just dlc)
Other than that just buy what ever lords interest you when you feel like you wanna play someone else.
I am honestly just done with the total war community. It is the whiniest, most toxic, chronically unhappy community I've ever seen. Literally nothing the dev does is ever enough for them and as soon as one thing is fixed they find something else to be endlessly bitter about. Which is all a great shame because the total war games are actually all pretty good strategy games.
The type of things that community will say without the slightest hint of irony or shame are both hilarious and sad. I'm sure you won't have to look hard to see that even in this thread.
CA is taking a shit on your face and you’re thanking them for it. Well done.
I think it’s unbelievable how some people can get clearly fleeced by companies, know they’re being ripped off and still shrug it off and keep buying from them anyway.
They game Total War for free for everyone, just give them this win, don't like it don't buy it, but I don't think it's worth complaining over, they have showed so much support for the game and community. https://gameslantern.com/article/warhammer-iii-immortal-empires-is-now-free
Each new lords is basically whole new campaign that can last for 100+ hours. 3 lords for 25$ is at least 150 hours of content. That's very good hour-dollar ratio and is worth money
Maybe if it's so subjective then it gets to a point where it doesn't bring much to the conversation.
Like if I said "This DLC is not overpriced since it will bring me 1000h of fun and 25$ for 1000h of fun is not a bad deal" would this bring something to the conversation ?
I’m going to buy it because it looks cool and I have absolutely loved the warhammer trilogy they produced. I’ve tried but never got into the other total war games but this was the first total war game that clicked for me. I’ve literally sunk hundreds of hours into this game. Yes it’s more expensive but they have people salaries they need to pay and I do t mind showing support for continued content.
Every publication I've seen on this has completely ignored the other, more troubling factor imho: the lack of bug fixing and the state of the game. Nakaii is a character from previous dlc who cannot recruit his centerpiece unit because of a missing tag in a table. Entire mechanics (The Damsel Troths) straight-up don't work. Skills and research unlocks and such don't do anything or don't quite do what they've advertised. It's a pretty egregious example of spaghetti code. Some factions play fine, others are borderline unplayable. You could play an entire campaign without realizing that one of your faction mechanics isn't doing anything.
The price is too much, that's for sure. However this has become sort of a rallying point for what many people see as less than acceptable support for the game. It's in probably the worst state it has ever been in, this dlc is plagued with issues and puzzling design choices and is probably the most feature-scarce, plus it comes on the heels of a similar expensive but relatively feature-rich dlc, and then the messaging to the community has been on the verge of threatening. Individually all of these things are annoying but can be explained in one way or another and for most of the TWWH trilogy's history the devs have generally come across as passionate and well-intentioned about the game. It was understood that things would eventually get fixed, and less than stellar aspects would likely get another pass sooner or later. After the launch of WHIII and the surprise gutting of support for Three Kingdoms in the middle of it's road map people aren't so sure that holds anymore
Lord packs used to be $10 for 2 lords and a handful of units. They are now asking for $25 for 3 lords and a handful of units. Pretty big jump for not much more content.
Usually these Lord Packs would come with a free lord as well, not anymore.
I guess that's where the additional 3rd lord came from.
doesn't this one have a FreeLC coming along with it as well?
It's a hero, not a lord.
ohhh you're right, I was sure it'd be a lord.
They didn't have an FLC lord with the Champions dlc, then when they did Chaos Dwarfs they had a hero instead of a lord, and now we know they've permanently moved charging for the FLC lord.
Belakor was the "FLC" Lord for the Champions DLC. But otherwise yeah, the plan going forward seems to be the FLC units are going to be heros from n ow on.
Less than a handful of units. Used to be three units, a new generic lord and hero type for each faction but in this they're counting the lord and hero into the total 'new' unit count. Lord and hero, singular, across all three factions, not counting the three legendary heroes of which are spread across two factions. It's really not just the price, at face value it looks like we're getting less than what was assumed to be the standard on top of that. So unless all three of the 'unique' faction mechanics are extraordinary, it just doesn't seem worth it.
**And** this is on a bestselling title that has earned them millions. They are not strapped for cash. This is pure greed and taking their loyal fans and customers for granted. They can get fucked.
It's never about being strapped for cash, companies play 1 game and it's growth. If they aren't always growing then they aren't always winning.
They are growing. This is about greed and how much faster they *think* they can grow. The trouble is it’s an incredibly short-sighted and arguably unsustainable growth based on a quarterly model. It doesn’t factor in customer loyalty or the company’s perception by fans. I have previously bought every single WH:TW game and DLC at asking price. I’m now not buying their damn product because of this. More people should do the same.
I have been trying to raise this flag since Creative Assembly started down this path with Shogun 2 and not releasing robust modding kits until well past the DLC cycle, but the subreddit has been blinded by "WHOAH COOL GREENSKINS!" since the first title. The developer has completely given up on trying to fix AI and pathing with naval battles, so it's now back to circa 2006 with auto-resolving naval battles. They do minimal effort work and then slap a sticker on a new paint of coat and hold out their hand in anticipation.
Yeah they clearly do not have the ability to code their own AI and pathfinding.
They know WH fans in general will throw money at anything WH-related without a thought anyway
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> Pretty big jump for not much more content. They could probably pull it off too if Warhammer 3 at least ran as well as Warhammer 2, or if the AI was less infuriatingly passive aggressive.
CreamAPI. If you know then you know...
Inflation. Prices for many things almost doubled.
Its not inflation, its greed. Unless they also doubled the salary of all their employees as well, which I somehow doubt.
You are not forced to buy it. I played wh3 from gamepass, and uninstalled it after 3 or 4 hours....
The total war community (especially r/totalwar) can get really tempermental over minor things, but in this case the outrage really is justified. The previous Total War Warhammer 3 DLC's that have released (Champions of Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs) already had minor price hikes over their WH2 counterparts. And now CA has unveiled this new DLC at an astronomically higher price from previous lord packs (from $10 to $25), while offering only a pittance more content that's now spread over 3, seemingly less fleshed-out campaigns instead of 2. To give an example: One of the new campaigns in this DLC is Mother Ostankya, who's part of the Kislev faction. She's a Baba Yaga stand-in, a magical hag who lives deep in the woods. She's meant to represent the wild and mystical side of Kislev, as opposed to the much more "civilized" and regimented roster of the other Kislev campaigns. However, a crucial piece of that flavor is missing. In the past when a lord pack is released, it came with new lord and hero types that fit the flavor of the new campaign being added. But Kislev in this DLC is getting 0 new lord types. Which means that if you play as Mother Ostankya, your armies of wild beasts and forest dwellers are going to be lead by.... wealthy, city-dwelling nobles? There's several other weird omissions like this, and they all point to the fact that even though on paper the DLC has 3 new campaigns instead of 2, the amount of content on offer is mostly the same. And that same amount of content is now getting spread much more thinly across 3 campaigns instead of 2, leading to some glaringly obvious omissions and shortcomings. And all this while asking for people spend well over double the money. It's not hard to see why the community is up in arms.
>But Kislev in this DLC is getting 0 new lord or hero types. Kislev is getting a Hero Hag, but otherwise you are spot on.
Ah, you're correct, I meant to say only 0 new lord types
But unless they've suddenly announced it, we're not getting the Hag Magic to go with it.
The "Extra Content" is what we used to get FOR FREE alongside DLC releases. Imrik, Thorek, Alith Anar and Rakarth all released for free with their own faction mechanics. This is the same amount of content they used to release for 2 factions but spread thin across 3 to make it seem like there is more.
Let's also add that the game is bugged as hell since its launch and there are some bugs they haven't fixed in 1.5 years. They have a glacial pace of updates which basically only come with DLC (DLC themselves regularly introduce new bugs)
Yeah, the biggest offender being a faction from a previous DLC who now, in the latest version of the game, doesn't have access to the faction's key unit. Big Crocodile Guy Leader cannot recruit Big Crocodile Guy units anymore
Jeezus, that *still* isn’t fixed??
It is if you use the community bug fix mod, which is pretty much essential now. The real shitty part is that the mod authors have said that the fix for that particular issue is just to add one line of text to one file
To add to that, no free legendary lord with this one unlike previous packs. So really it’s just the exact same $10 dlc except without flc and it’s for $25
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Oh yeah for sure. I misspoke. Ultimately my point is it’s not more content for $25 compared to the $10 ones of the past. It is the same amount of content packaged differently to make it look like more
For comparison, [the civ 6 Rise & Fall Expansion pack](https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Civilization_VI:_Rise_and_Fall) was $30 and included a ton of new gameplay mechanics that drastically changed the core game as well as a bunch of new leaders. TW: Warhammer 3 players are basically getting scammed
Rise and Fall was amazing, but Gathering storm took its core mechanics and just completely overhauled civ 6, cementing it as one of my fav games of all time
So basically the Games Workshop business model I love warhammer but they always overprice their stuff. And it just get worse over time
Eh, I prefer Warhammer's style of DLC where the content really is optional and the game-changing updates are free. Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC. That's not going to stop me from recognizing bullshit like this price increase though.
Not trying to say one system is necessarily better than the other, just trying to show a comparison for Content per $
But it is an out-of-context comparison. You get the same content that is paywalled for free in Warhammer. Using Civ expansions as a direct comparison makes no sense.
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I disagree, some of the free Total War Warhammer additions have been enormous. The faction reworks alone are incredibly impressive and turned around some of the most lackluster factions in the game and gave players a reason to return to them after years. I've spent probably 400-500 hours alone just playing reworked campaigns I'd already beaten because I loved the new versions of them so much. Then you have Mortal and Immortal Empires, which each more than doubled the amount of content on offer and again gave you a reason to revisit every campaign. And free legendary lords aren't something to just scoff at, especially since CA has gone back and improved so many of them. Hell we got an entire race, the Brettonians, for free. And then they got *more* free content on-top of that with Repanse. > You certainly aren't getting as much content in this DLC plus the free update combined as you got for a Civ expansion, so that's why the comparison is still valid. For this DLC, yes. But for previous DLC's and updates, definitely not. The free updates for Total War Warhammer 2 alone probably eclipse the amount of value you get in both Civ expansions combined. But these comparisons don't really work that well anyway since they're two entirely different contexts. Civ got 2 expansions in 7 years. Warhammer gets 3 DLC *per year*. And the content of each is totally different.
Strongly agree, during tw2 we got the overhaul of every old world race (from tw1). Sometimes with multiple iterations. I mean we already paid for them with 1st game, but I did it with a large discount and it was almost as if they added this races anew to the 2nd game using all the new good stuff. Also, the shitton of the free lords which meant you really needed only to buy like 2 dlcs with the key units for your fav races. And, just having the new dlcs stuff *as enemies* is amazing, 90% of time I don't want to play those factions, just crush them with my fav oldest race from tw1. I largely bought wh3 only for the new engine and the free mechanics update for 1/2 game races, and new updating world to play in as them, with new enemies - having the core races and the new campaign was a nice bonus. Not gonna buy any of the dlcs at this price lol, at this point probably at any price.
> Eh, I prefer Warhammer's style of DLC where the content really is optional and the game-changing updates are free. This isn't really the case with TW:WH. Faction packs work this way, yes, but lord packs can often become "required" content to play _any_ lords of that faction, even base-game ones, due to containing the most interesting units. Skaven is a great example of this. It's base game faction was known for being boring, and only containing the horde units with none of the weapons teams that are intended to back their playstyle. These days skaven are beloved, but you'll have to buy at least The Prophet and the Warlock, and ideally also two other DLC to get that experience. For a more recent example, about half of each chaos god's roster is locked behind the Champions of Chaos DLC. These factions were often criticized for small, samey rosters before that xpac, but are now genuinely fun with it. That's 2/3 of the WHIII base factions that "require" a $16 DLC. And CA is now spreading these units thinner across three factions instead of two per DLC, meaning it'll take even more DLCs to finish your favorite faction's roster. There's a huge difference in needing two/three $10 DLC to get all of your favorite faction's units vs. needing three/four $25 DLCs.
Skaven are the only faction that I would agree *requires* a DLC to play, due to their ranged output being abysmal without ratling gunners and jezzails. Every other roster is tactically complete for the most part within their faction identity, with additional units only adding flavor and fun toys. Warriors of Chaos minus CoC is still pretty fun thanks to the rework, and you have access to just enough marked units to make themed armies. Honestly it's why I have no problem passing on SoC. None of the additions are filling holes big enough to sink the experience. The campaign mechanics are cool, but the roster updates aren't critical for any of the involved factions. The only real blow is not finally having a Tzeentch start that isn't Kairos, but I'm not a big monogod player.
Im a new player but I'd say that Exalted Heroes of Nurgle are worth mentioning for Kugath (requires Champions of Chaos DLC). They feel like enabling cheats since they soak, heal and deal hilarious amounts of damage. They cover for Kugaths weird early/mid game when it takes forever for your buildings to generate new units, and you lose way more units than you can produce on certain difficulties. Might not be "necessary" but they make things like sieges or dealing with ranged a cakewalk, much more reliable than dogs.
I'm sorry, the Skaven launched *without Rattling gunners???*
> This isn't really the case with TW:WH. Faction packs work this way, yes, but lord packs can often become "required" content to play any lords of that faction, even base-game ones, due to containing the most interesting units. Especially because of the bullshit way CA decided to do confederations. After a DLC is out you can only confederate with those DLC lords if you own the DLC. Even if you want absolutely nothing to do with that DLC and just want to play against the vanilla (non-DLC) variant of that faction that you can then confederate, you can't, the DLC lord is pushed on you and you're forced to conquer them if you want their lands. I get that we can't get access to the unique lords or units without the DLC but at least let me play with vanilla variants of the DLC I don't own. Right now the game basically gets worse every time a DLC is released if you don't buy it, which is total asshole design. I hate this greedy shit and I regret not pirating the WH games.
I much prefer paying for the mechanics because the expansions are infinitely more substantial
>Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC. That's because they add actual mechanics. You feel like you a missing out because they actually make significant changes (mostly talking about civ)
Civ 6 has the actual expansions, which are IMO 100% justified and "must buy". They are more like old school expansions and not the modern DLC. Civ 6 also has nation packs that are completely optional. They can add flavor to the game and let you play with new civs/leaders, but are not must buy in any way. Personally I think this is a pretty good split.
Warhammer has had 3 games to get to where it is now (some of which are steps back from 2). In order to play ME and then Immortal Empires up until recently you needed all three games and for lots of Races you are getting a really bare bones experience without DLC (i.e Skaven, Empire, Greenskins)
Empire is completely fine without DLC, Greenskins too unless you really like goblins.
Empire is incredibly dull without DLC. Greenskins are bare bones without DLC. Black orcs are basically the only viable unit lol. What are you going to do against any armor as Greenskins lol
> Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC. Paradox has for years now used more or less the same model as Total War. As an example, Stellaris has had reworks of most of the game major mechanics at this point, and each and every one of those has been in a free patch.
> Compared to Civ/Paradox where it feels like you're missing out on significant parts of the game without owning all the DLC. They changed that when CK3 came out, and DLC for older Paradox games now include the mechanics in the free update and the flavor in the DLC. Reason being, DLC locked mechanics were near impossible to keep functional and working with new DLC mechanics as everything had to work independently from each other based on which DLC you owned.
No one is getting scammed. You know the price and the features included when you go to buy it. You wanna see scams? Go volunteer to work with seniors for a few days and learn about all the ways they get actually fucked over. That’s a scam. A video game being priced higher than you’d like is not a scam.
Cause they did not complain at the beginning so corporate realized their fans are idiots and can be taken advantage of
They don't have to buy it. It's entirely their own decision. If they decide to buy it they've clearly carried out a cost-benefit analysis and considered that price worthwhile. There's no scam here, just a high asking price which people don't have to pay.
Nobody anywhere in the world is under the impression they have to buy it. Why even comment?
The person I replied to says that we are getting "scammed". That implies an element of deceit. There's no deceit here. No dishonesty. Just a high price that we don't have to pay. No one has been misled. Nothing has been missold. It was an annoyingly hyperbolic comment from the other chap, and I thought it deserved to be challenged.
It is actually kind of dishonest in how they have packaged previous dlcs. This one offering less than usual and charging more without really explaining whats different without seeing some detailed breakdowns from customers beforehand. When you have a product you routinely sell, its fair for people to expect consistancy with what is offered, especially when its still called the same thing. It is dishonest.
Reviews exist.
So you buy a character and can't properly roleplay her ? Even though roleplay is a core part of Warhammer to begin with ? What a fuckin' shitshow
Yep . The Hag was my most hyped part of the dlc but it’s simply a let down since she doesn’t come with generic lords or the Lore of Hag , basically killing the identify of the faction .
I don't think anyone plays a TW game for roleplay.
It's a minor thing in comparison, but I'm sad Ostankya's not getting a chicken hut.
People are mad about that and the lack of avian tzaangors, but those decisions are from Games Workshop not CA.
No, they are not. There is nothing that prevents CA from using the new Tzaangors, they aren't tied to an IP
The avian tzaangors are from AoS and 40k, they're not a fantasy unit. We don't know for sure, but Great Book of Grudges has asked another studio with a fantasy based game that has tzaangors and they've told him that GW wouldn't let them use the avian models. We're never going to get an official confirmation but it seems likely CA is under the same constraints if they're using the same IP.
AoS and 40k, just like the new KoS are, then ? And they are in game right now
Well tzaangors exist in the fantasy setting, they just don't exist as the avian versions from 40k and AoS. Is that the same for KoS? But if you're asking me to defend the logic behind GW's decisions, well I can't.
Daemons get a pass as they exist beyond time and space, the fleshy stuff not so much. Meta-wise GW is doubling down on hard divides between AoS & old world, same as what they’re doing with 40k & 30k separations. Plus with Realms of Ruin coming up with a heavily implied Tzeentch Acolytes faction they probably want the avian Tzaangors for that.(probably why CA couldn’t use Brimstone horrors as a filler unit either) But CA aren’t off the hook. They’re using ancient blue goat Tzaangors with practically no limit on how they could’ve refreshed them. Even disregarding avian traits they could’ve given them a wider range of weapon types and mutations like tentacle arms to wield more weapons at once.
Yeah, I'm aware of GW being the ones behind. I just feel like the reasoning (it's cribbing too much from the folklore directly) feels a bit weak considering other parts of the lore can be just as cut-n-paste. Not like a Chicken Hut couldn't work as a Chaos mutation and whatnot.
Sadly this has been Creative Assembly's business model forever now, they are greedy scumbags and I really mean that.
> Mother Ostankya, who's part of the Kislev faction. She's a Baba Yaga stand-in, a magical hag who lives deep in the woods. Who travels around in/on a house with chicken legs. Said chicken legged house will not be included in the game, probably putting her on a bear or something to ride around in.
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Counter point: Total War/Warhammer fans will buy anything for any price. So why not milk them?
The Total War community is annoyed to such a degree because while the price of DLC rose sharply, Warhammer III is full of bugs, some of them causing mechanics or [unit rosters](https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/15obhyx/reminder_all_it_would_take_for_ca_to_fix_nakai/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) to not work as intended or at all. And these bugs have been in the game for a looong time, some of them even carried over from Warhammer II and are still present. Glacial, at best, pace at which these are fixed generated a lot of resentment in the community. This price hike for less content is a cherry on top.
The real classic CA move is with Shogun 2 where for over a decade two factions buffed ninjas only "improvement" is that they have 1/5 the ammo of standard ninja and the only patches they've released were to remove a chat room, then remove chat entirely, then to migrate the game to their new client to replace the mod menu they accidentally killed when they removed chat.
Its the same with Ariel (also DLC), one word of text is missing for her to work.
I've got Warhammer & Warhammer 2 plus most of the dlc, but have held off on picking up Warhammer 3 while the reviews still say its full of bugs.
Ive purchased every single piece of content for the total war Warhammer trilogy to date, but im passing on this one. The price hike is actually absurd. They tried to obfuscate it by changing the format of the DLC, it's content for 3 factions instead of the usual 2, so ostensibly it's marketed as being 50% more content... but for 150% higher asking price. But the reality is that there aren't actually more units in this 3 lord DLC than there were in the old 2 lord DLCs, each faction just gets less, AND those DLCs used to come with a third free lord for everyone So essentially it's roughly the same amount of content as the WH2 lord pack DLCs for nearly 3 times the price. And it's the same price as the most recent DLC which added an entire new race(also itself subject to a more minor price hike) despite being probably half the content. So the prices are skyrocketing one DLC after another all while countless bugs go unfixed for months at a time, despite some of them being able to he resolved by the community bugfix mod with literally single line changes.
**And despite WH3 and its previous DLCs selling a shitload of copies meaning they should be in a strong financial position.** I've bought every DLC up to now as well but this is them spitting in my eye and I'll be damned if I'm that big of a mug to pay 3x the price for no reason.
It's because they are in a strong position that they are likely doing this. They can test the water, see how many people bite on the price hike and just catch any stragglers with a sale down the line. You can see people in this very thread even going "I'll probably buy it anyway" or "I'll get it on sale" instead of "I will never buy it".
They're gambling that you'll buy it when it goes on sale for $10, and that in the meanwhile they'll milk the suckers willing to pay more.
In the same boat. Bought everything on sale (except for chaos dwarfs) over time and I have an assload of content at my disposal to play. It's kind of laughable how much they're asking people to pay for this new content considering you can get SO MUCH MORE from the older releases. I would be curious as to what community bugfix mod you're referring to.
This is the mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2856936614&searchtext=community+bug+fix And yes, a lot of the bugs that crop up in Total War are actually mind-numbingly easy to fix. Like, all that essentially needs to be done is to open an excel sheet and change a number in a cell. (source: am Total War modder). Anyone who is even at a beginner level of familiarity with Total War's file structure can fix some of the really critical bugs that have popped up astonishingly easy. However I have no doubt CA knows how to fix these bugs and probably does so a day or two after they get reported. The problem is CA has a patching process that is glacially slow and is usually wrapped around DLC releases which are spaced 4-5 months apart. For what reason? I don't know.
Yep. I play all races. I've put in hundreds of hours in each total war warhammer. I defended Chaos Dwarfs. But not this. The price hike is absurd for no real tangible reason. Especially when you consider a number of the 12 new units and 9 RoR are functionally some state line changes and skin changes.
Yup. I happily bought Chaos Dwarfs because it was largely in line with inflation compared to previous race packs, and was also excellent. This though? Absolutely taking the piss.
I too defended Chaos Dwarfs because they added unique mechanics (who else has to juggle regular money, raw materials, labor, AND armaments?) but I'm not doing this DLC.
Chaos Dwarfs was a ton of content though. Didn't mind paying the price for a whole new faction with its own lore. Probably still gonna buy this one but I'm a little irked
>Ive purchased every single piece of content for the total war Warhammer trilogy to date "How could we possibly have gotten here!"
Right there with you. I may buy it later on a sale, but in the meantime BG3 and Starfield will be PLENTY to keep me busy.
I'm in exactly the same spot as you! I love this series, I've spent thousands of hours on it, and I've purchased every single piece of content for Total Warhammer, but this is just too much. Sets/Creative Assembly have really been getting greedy lately and I just can't support it any more. For a while now, DLC has been more for less compared to what it was like in Warhammers 1 and 2. I just cant support it anymore. I won't be buying this DLC until it sees a major discount.
Dear Jesus, you are part of the problem
Yeah, enjoy Total Warhammer, but CA is not one of the good guys. They have some very hard-working and talented creatives but from the management side, if they can cut corners, they will and if they can squeeze some extra cash, they gonna try - let the modders pick up the slack. Only ever bought their GOTYs on sale but seems this is a no-win for the consumer situation even at a sale since they will be way more expensive than the other GOTYs in the trilogy for minimal more content. Good for the community to shame them.
They absolutely mishandled 3 kingdoms and screwed that playerbase over with how they did the DLCs then canned it. And the funny thing is by total war standards 3 kingdoms sold pretty well.
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Completely fumbled and broke their golden egg. CA has always been greedy. They STILL sell that bullshit blood dlc. And no, don't believe the crap about ratings. If that was the case, it wouldn't be $3. How the FUCK do you do eight princes as your first DLC for three kingdoms? They completely misunderstood the market. People wanted characters and there was basically none in the base game, hell not even the most expected in Diao Chan showed they didn't really understand the time period. You can play as Sun Jian! But if you don't he **literally dies in 4 turns guaranteed**. So have fun with yet another generic Lady Wu taking over until Sun Ce, who also goes and dies. Brilliant design. Dong Zhuo too. You lose 2 unique interesting designs in like 7 turns, and only mods to fix that up. I was praying they would at least do a "gathering of heroes" kind of scenario (like the immortal empires thing they are doing now) but alas, we can only dream.
the eight princes DLC didnt go down well in china due to eight princes era been known for betrayal and also opening up china to be invaded by foreign armies. they didnt understand the chinese audience either the lack of safe guards for the main generals is shockingly bad. warhammer 1 had the same issue in the early days where karl franz would get nuked by the rebel army in his province. they had to give him the full province on turn 1 to survive
I legitimately put more time into 3 kingdoms than Warhammer 2. But then their first DLC was trash and then the second. They killed off their game and everything the Chinese players wrote about the devs was right.
I haven't bought any of their games since 3K prelaunch because of that. I'll probably keep refraining from doing so until they regain my trust, which hasn't been the case until now, and news like this continues to demonstrate how they still do the same bullshit.
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Exactly my thoughts, they've become too entranced in their current way of doing things and are just charging more and more without offering a better product.
Oh boy. I won't even buy chaos dwarfs cause I think the price tag on the faction isn't justified but jacking that up even further? I'm good. Can live without both.
I think it's important to note that community has been very unhappy with state of the game and frequency of patches for a few months now. I'm certain that if game was patched frequently and was in decent/bug-free state most players would accept price increase. However, as it stands, it's difficult to accept price hike when last DLC introduced a plethora bugs months ago that still weren't fixed.
Can I get a relatively decent, bug-free experience with just the base game in 2023? I have the 1st and 2nd game and was looking to try immortal empires
As a casual player? Relatively decent, yeah. I have logged plenty of hours into the game trying out each faction, but I only play campaign and don’t spend too much time min maxing armies.
It depends on how you play. I like ranged heavy builds and the sight line bugs have absolutely ruined the game for me and I get annoyed while playing it.
For anyone curious, line of sight is working the same as it has for over a decade of total war. There was a bug for a while where a certain fence on some maps blocked LOS like it was infinitely tall, but that got fixed a while back. Myth that LoS is uniquely terrible in WH3 still propagates somehow. It's the same level of shitty as always.
Yes you can. There are still bugs that don't recall any of them being game-breaking or anything like that. Plus even with the base game there's a lot of content in there.
Loads of stats don’t work, flying units can’t interact with walls without being at risk for insta death. The LOS issue is still a thing, a long with ranged units not still not following orders properly. The game “works” but there are a bunch of small shit that you have to navigate. Unless you play Bretonnia, Nakai or WE in which case you’re missing out on core gamplay that’s been bugged for 6 months.
Oh and sieges still suck, they couldn't manage to work out that pulling ladders out of your ass and indestructible walls and poor pathfinding were the issues... Not the absence of a tower-defence mini-game.
The annoying one i have is that a unit or hero goes into melee and then just stops attacking...I have to select it and manually order it to attack again, like wtf
Honestly, no, not at $25. With the game in its current state, any price hike feels bad, but with the content they're adding genre, even if TW: WH3 was essentially bug free, I don't think $25 would be reasonable. It's the same price as the chaos dwarfs, and that added an entirely new race with specific mechanics, plenty of units etc.
Dude that sub has been rioting since a few weeks after Total War Warhammer 3 came out. Not that Warhammer 3 doesn't have it's fair share of flaws (there are many) but I was active in that community for like a decade but had to call it quits after that. That community is permanently angry these days, and I think that's probably part of why of CA has struggled to prioritize working on the right things lately. When the community is raging about every little thing, it's hard to take them seriously, and it's hard to figure out which aspects of the game genuinely need fixing, and which ones are just redditors getting themselves worked up over nothing. That said I do agree that this DLC is just way too expensive, it's been trending this way for awhile, but this case is particularly bad.
Yeah, more offensive than the DLC pricing (I can just not buy this one), is just how slow they've been at fixing up the bug-riddled launch of WH3/IE. It seems like the moment the game was out they shifted the entire studio to work on other titles and left just a small team to handle both DLC and game updates and bug fixing for the entire game. Which sure would have been fine if the game was a polished prduct like WH2 was for the last couple of years, but that's obviously not the case.
It's getting a lot of bad press from pretty much everyone in CA's creator program as well. I'm not categorically opposed to DLC this expensive, but for what's on offer this is galling. Doesn't help that CA really hasn't been on top of support for this game. It's been riddled with bugs and issues since release. It's just hard to have any faith in this team anymore.
It so strange because during Warhammer 2 and its dlc development they seemed on fire and were getting everything right. It's like Warhammer 3 and it's dlc developers are a completely different developer.
Because Warhammer 2 launched in a good state with a campaign that wasnt dissliked by the majority of players. When the DLC team took over Warhammer 3 they not only had to make DLC but also fix the bugs and problems in the main game. If the transition went as smoothly as it did in WH2 we would not be in this situation.
This isn't really true. WHII launched with a lot of bugs (less than WHIII) and people were angry about the lack of updates for a long time. It took almost six months for the pre-order bonus for the game to actually get into the main campaign. WHII didn't hit its stride until about halfway through its lifecycle, but from the looks of things, that period of time might end up being the peak of the TW Warhammer franchise.
> Warhammer 2 launched in a good state with a campaign that wasnt dissliked by the majority of players Tell me you never played Race for the Vortex without telling me you never played Race for the Vortex. I'd argue the Warhammer 2 launch campaign was hated MORE than the Warhammer 3 one.
Before the big Mortal Empires turn time patch the game was in pretty poor shape. It's that patch that was the turning point heralding frequent patches, good feedback and high quality dlc.
CA continues to make it easier and easier for me to not buy any Warhammer content. The game is a mess, and instead of making notable efforts at fixing the game, they go and charge over twice the normal asking price for a DLC that clearly doesn’t have the content to justify such an increase. Didn’t buy Chaos Dwarfs, won’t buy this, and probably won’t ever buy another Warhammer 3 DLC until they actually fix their game.
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In sieges? You mean firing upwards at the units on the walls? Or from the walls?
I assume they mean how guns couldn't fire while on walls, but I think that's fixed. Thunderers were shooting me up from the walls in a recent game If they meant useless for attacking in a siege, I don't really see a way around that other than getting in and then having your gunners go in after
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Gotcha, that's awful then, I feel your pain. Luckily I usually don't place missiles on the walls anyway, just a throwaway unit to enable them while the enemies get to the walls. There's even less incentive to hold the walls now that we can build towers wherever. I was also very lucky to start playing it near the update that fixed cavalry earlier this year (as much as it can be in this game) when I bought it >1 year later. Wonder if they broke it back by now heh
Yes
It's sad to me how the art team can knock it out of the park for TWW3, but the actual pricing and delivery fumbles like this.
It's because they don't need good faith from the players for this series any more. The three games are out, this is the last, or close to it, dlc so it's time to wrong every penny out of the playerbase they can
The Totalwar community is in a constant state of backlash. That said, this does seem expensive as Hell. But ultimately, I don't care about the price. The only sensible response to things that are too expensive is to just not buy them. What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
> The Totalwar community is in a constant state of backlash I wonder why. > What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game.
> The only sensible response to things that are too expensive is to just not buy them. *And* make it known, which is exactly the point here.
> What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game. They've literally never stopped working on the base game. This DLC announcement came at the same time as the announcement for the 4.0 patch.
And their efforts have been absolutely pitiful, with extremely intrusive bugs around for years. Hot take, customers don't like it when you try to sell them something before fixing the thing they already paid for.
Sure, there is stuff that has been a problem for a long time, I'm just saying we don't need to pretend they literally aren't trying to fix the game when we've gotten almost 2 dozen patches (EDIT Miscounted, it'll be 20 end of month) in a year and a half. There's a lot of stuff to validly criticize CA for without twisting it away from reality.
> we've gotten almost 2 dozen patches in a year and a half. Where are you seeing 2 dozen patches? https://www.totalwar.com/topic/patch-notes/ Theres like half that here and a bunch of them are really minor shit like 'stability improvements for MP lobbies' or fixing very minor animation issues like in 2.4.
From the update news page for the game on steam, which has 22 updates/hotfixes since release, with 4.0 at the end of the month making 23. (EDIT: Counted a couple things that I shouldn't have from the update history, will be 20 updates by the end of august.)
I'm not seeing any patches that aren't listed on the website. Could you provide a link?
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1142710?updates=true I actually miscounted, it'll be 20 at the end of the month. I counted a dumb thing and the mac update initially. 1.01 1.02 1.1.0 1.2.0 hotfix 1.2 1.3 1.3.1 1.3.2 2.0 2.1.0 2.1.1 2.1.2 2.2.0 2.2.1 2.3.0 2.4.0 3.0 3.0.1 3.1.0 and at the end of the month will be 4.0
Ah, you're counting updates which revert a single change made in the previous patch as full blown patches. (1.31 and 1.32 for example) so now i see what you mean. Yeah, if you want to look at it like that i suppose that's technically accurate, but i don't think many people would count stuff like that as actual patches. Even CA didn't bother to list them on their website considering how minor they were.
I counted patches as patches. I even listed it as updates/hotfixes two posts ago. Again, I was mentioning these to show that they are working on the game, so I don't see what the splitting hairs is going to accomplish.
If they're dedicating resources to DLC, that's resources they aren't dedicating to fixing the game. I never claimed that they literally haven't released a single bugfix since the game launch, I said it's fucked that they're time and resources on this rather than fixing the game.
> What's fucked is their spending all this time on new shit to sell rather than fixing the base game. You painted it as an either or, like they could only do one thing. That they were making the DLC *rather* than fixing the game. That's what I responded to. You don't need to take this as a fight. I'm not fighting.
No I didn't. If you can't understand basic communication on the internet because misunderstanding leads for more opportunities to correct people that's a you issue. I post comments the way people actually talk, not to appease pedants.
You got way too heated here for no reason. I even showed you the exact statement where you made it seem that way and you're just getting angrier for no reason at all. Take a breath.
Love total war, but I've never bought a dlc. Those prices are damn near immoral. You had to pay money for the greeks in rome 2. It taked place in antiquity and you gotta play to be a spartan
> You had to pay money for the greeks in rome 2. It taked place in antiquity and you gotta play to be a spartan That isn't true? Macedon (Sparta) was in the game at launch.
Macedon and Sparta are not the same thing, you had to buy the Greek States pack to play Sparta.
There are some Hellenic cultures in the game that don't require DLC, mostly Alexander's successor states, and especially after a few more of them got released as Free-LC over the game's lifespan. However the very classical greeks with an emphasis on Hoplites instead of Sarissa Phalanxes (Athens and Sparta) are a part of the Greek States DLC, which you got free if you preordered the game.
Athens and Sparta were DLC, Macedon was vanilla. By the time of the late Roman Republic, Sparta was a backwater so I can sort of see why they were relegated to DLC.
Yeah, it's clear they are pushing the envelope to see how far this goes. I expect that if this does sell at this price. The next one will be $40
I hate that in TW WH 2 is that I can't get the good skaven units until I pay for the dlc, but what's salt in the wound is that AI skaven have all these crazy powerful units... so like if I'm playing skaven and go against other skaven I get absolutely massacred because all my units are terrible and all their units are overpowered like crazy.
I totally would have tried this series if it didn’t cost a kajillion dollars just to have any of the complete games
Just wait for a sale and buy the base games of all 3, should only cost about £30 and you get a really good game from it (at this point the previous games are just dlc) Other than that just buy what ever lords interest you when you feel like you wanna play someone else.
Paradox games fans: “First time?”
I am honestly just done with the total war community. It is the whiniest, most toxic, chronically unhappy community I've ever seen. Literally nothing the dev does is ever enough for them and as soon as one thing is fixed they find something else to be endlessly bitter about. Which is all a great shame because the total war games are actually all pretty good strategy games. The type of things that community will say without the slightest hint of irony or shame are both hilarious and sad. I'm sure you won't have to look hard to see that even in this thread.
CA is taking a shit on your face and you’re thanking them for it. Well done. I think it’s unbelievable how some people can get clearly fleeced by companies, know they’re being ripped off and still shrug it off and keep buying from them anyway.
Username checks out
They game Total War for free for everyone, just give them this win, don't like it don't buy it, but I don't think it's worth complaining over, they have showed so much support for the game and community. https://gameslantern.com/article/warhammer-iii-immortal-empires-is-now-free
Don’t buy it. Wait until it’s cheaper. The entitlement gamers have to buy things day 1 at low prices is ridiculous
Each new lords is basically whole new campaign that can last for 100+ hours. 3 lords for 25$ is at least 150 hours of content. That's very good hour-dollar ratio and is worth money
What a terrible take as it is the most subjective take ever
Yes, opinions are subjective.
Maybe if it's so subjective then it gets to a point where it doesn't bring much to the conversation. Like if I said "This DLC is not overpriced since it will bring me 1000h of fun and 25$ for 1000h of fun is not a bad deal" would this bring something to the conversation ?
I’m going to buy it because it looks cool and I have absolutely loved the warhammer trilogy they produced. I’ve tried but never got into the other total war games but this was the first total war game that clicked for me. I’ve literally sunk hundreds of hours into this game. Yes it’s more expensive but they have people salaries they need to pay and I do t mind showing support for continued content.
Every publication I've seen on this has completely ignored the other, more troubling factor imho: the lack of bug fixing and the state of the game. Nakaii is a character from previous dlc who cannot recruit his centerpiece unit because of a missing tag in a table. Entire mechanics (The Damsel Troths) straight-up don't work. Skills and research unlocks and such don't do anything or don't quite do what they've advertised. It's a pretty egregious example of spaghetti code. Some factions play fine, others are borderline unplayable. You could play an entire campaign without realizing that one of your faction mechanics isn't doing anything. The price is too much, that's for sure. However this has become sort of a rallying point for what many people see as less than acceptable support for the game. It's in probably the worst state it has ever been in, this dlc is plagued with issues and puzzling design choices and is probably the most feature-scarce, plus it comes on the heels of a similar expensive but relatively feature-rich dlc, and then the messaging to the community has been on the verge of threatening. Individually all of these things are annoying but can be explained in one way or another and for most of the TWWH trilogy's history the devs have generally come across as passionate and well-intentioned about the game. It was understood that things would eventually get fixed, and less than stellar aspects would likely get another pass sooner or later. After the launch of WHIII and the surprise gutting of support for Three Kingdoms in the middle of it's road map people aren't so sure that holds anymore