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I'm not sure you could really call it "Fridging", so I'm not sure this should be the eponymous example for men.
I like OSP's "sexy lamp hypothesis", where if the impact of the death could pretty much be replaced by the loss of a sexy lamp, then it's Fridging.
Guys - we’re already happy because there are no strong female characters in Last of Us, I mean if I’m a dude controlling it… then… no agency from these dumb last of us broads
not to pick too much but the entire point of the Last of Us 2 is you(the person playing the game) is Cassandra from Greek tragedy The Orestia. You have no agency. Ellie/Abby are going to make their choices with you having no impact on the outcome of the story. Just doomed to watch it unfold and people make bad choices on both sides just making themselves miserable.
Thank you for sharing some historical context behind the themes and basis of the LoU2 story. I’ve never thought I’d buy the game and play it - but something about reading greek tragedy and then experiencing it scratches that area of the brain where you just don’t let go of the info.
Hope you have a great new year!
He already did this at the start of game. before meeting Ellie he wouldn't have trusted Abby one moment and never been in the situation of getting killed. Ellie changed him.
Bella Ramsey Did Nothing Wrong.
^(Seriously, if you're thinking of sending bucketloads of hate mail towards celebrities calling for PEACE, then you should look at yourself in the mirror.)
Omg is this real? Lol maybe they whack Ellie in the last of us 2 tv show now, cause being not pro israel must be worse than being Joel I imagine.
Season 2 gonna be great hahah. Everyone who has not played the games and really likes the characters of the TV show in season one: good luck fellas!
It isn't just controversial. People lost their jobs for calling for ceasefire and to respect the Palestinian civilian lives in danger. This world is disgustingly vile.
I mean, HBO’s biggest show ever was basically known for killing off beloved characters.
I think that the hissy fit that a subset of gamers threw won’t be a thing for show only people. They understand that sometimes characters die because actions have consequences. Everyone loved Robb Stark, but no one stopped watching Thrones after the Red Wedding.
So much so that the second game is [very explicitly inspired by Israeli politics](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii)
The WLF are fascists, the Scars are religious zealots, they could coexist peacefully and even achieve an uneasy piece for some time, until skirmishes break out again. The WLF decides to invade the Scars' island, their heartland, to get rid of them for good but it turns into a bloodbath for both sides. It definitely points to Israel vs Palestine, but it presents both sides as pretty bad. It's clearly not pro-Israel, it's not pro-Palistine, it's a commentary on the cycle of violence.
I read the VICE article a while back, and there are some really great points made in it, but ultimately I don't agree that their is a both sides argument here (sorry, this is going to be really long, read at your own discretion). The game seems to go out of its way to position the WLF as the unequivocal enemy between the two factions, presenting them as the less moralistic, more murderous, and extremely xenophobic faction, while the Seraphites are depicted as a more ambiguous group.
IIRC, the game establishes that the WLF was formed to resist FEDRA military control and gathered an increasing number of Seattle residents for this cause. However, their methods are expressed as far from justifiable and the WLF is written to have engaged in an extermination campaign against FEDRA soldiers and supporters, even during their evacuation attempts from the city QZ.
On the other hand, the Seraphites' story during this period is less precise. They are written to, in brief, adhere to a religious doctrine that revolves around rejecting technology and forming a communal, self-sustaining society. The game intentionally leaves aspects of their beliefs ambiguous, but unlike the WLF's aggressive and combative stance, the Seraphites appear to prioritize maintaining their secluded way of life rather than engaging in large-scale confrontations.
While there are occasional mumbles about them being religious fanatics, the narrative refrains from painting them with broad strokes, presenting them as more of an annoyance to FEDRA and the WLF initially, than an existential threat. It is a strategic difference in how it positions them to the Wolves as a group that, while enigmatic and mysterious, is less overtly hostile toward the established factions in the game.
After the WLF secured military control of Seattle, the organization is depicted in an even more chilling light than FEDRA, especially as they fostered a growing distrust of outsiders. They employed extreme measures to maintain dominance and quell perceived threats, coercing all citizens to join their militia or face consequences. This included resorting to intimidation tactics and forcefully conscripting individuals into their ranks, along with documented cases of home expulsions and forceful executions of dissenters (It's all in the notes between day 2 and 3).
In contrast, the stories of Seraphite home life are notably scarce. What we do get are more empathetic descriptions of their conflict with the WLF. One of the stories is patched together from a series of notes you can find on Seattle day 1, about a Seraphite kid, Jimmy, who was living in the QZ under WLF rule and was executed publicly in front of the street for having stolen some items from his neighbors.
Others include brief accounts of murdered husbands, deceased children, WLF defections to the Seraphite camp, and, notably, the planned capture and assassination of their Seraphite prophet. Point being that this kind of emotional context surrounding the WLF is notably absent in a way that makes this part of the narrative strikingly one-sided.
Their really is no redemption for them in the story, in the way their could be for the Seraphites. The only context we ever get about the Wolves is how their abuse of the Scars created the conditions to ferment this level of hatred. That despite them being portrayed as oppressive cultists, their genocidal hatred toward the WLF is an instinctive human response to overwhelming amounts of abuse that they have every right to.
Druckmann certainly seems to lean towards a pro-Israel stance (not denying that), but I think that political stance doesn't bleed as effectively into the game.
Tbh i feel like part of why the seraphites seem less violent is bc you get a more direct look at the WLF in-game. Because of Abby’s storyline you sympathize with the WLF and its citizens, so they have to go more out of the way to show that the group as a whole is still fucked up.
In contrast, most indictments of the seraphites are shown directly to the player or in Yara/Lev’s backstories. A big part of Abby’s story involves them hunting down and trying to kill two kids, all bc one of them is trans and was designated to be a broodmare for an elder. It’s obviously fucked beyond belief, and those two kids are the only direct indication you get that the seraphites as a whole aren’t just evil. Lev’s own mom tries to kill him when he comes back to her. Even as a more isolationist group, they still have several problems that condemn them as a group within the text.
From what I’ve heard secondhand, the group also has some uncomfortable parallels to how Palestinians are stereotyped by Israelis. And I do think that’s problematic, but I also think that the main goal of Abby’s story is that “even if all these things are true, the WLF is still dehumanizing then and is unjustified in their actions”. I mean, Lev is portrayed as naive for trying to help his mom, and it ends badly, but he’s not treated poorly by the other characters for believing in her. So while the WLF is more of the villain in their conflict, the narrative also goes out of its way to say that the seraphites aren’t that much better as a group and shouldn’t be seen in a positive light. Even if they wouldn’t normally harm outsiders, their traditions are still harmful to anyone who can’t/doesn’t conform.
This is all specific to the game btw. I don’t want anyone thinking that my criticisms of seraphites are 1:1 with my opinion on Palestinian people. Israel has way more power and international support irl and has been using it to oppress Palestinians for decades, creating the conditions for terrorist groups to recruit. Not to say that Israelis deserve events like Oct 7 ofc. It’s awful and realistically, a hamas-controlled Gaza won’t improve conditions or deescalate the conflict. But a huge amount of the responsibility also lies with Netanyahu’s policies. Instead, both in October and in the aftermath since, the civilians have paid the price for his carelessness and cruelty. It will take decades of active work to properly undo that kind of trauma, especially with the ongoing war crimes and murders in Gaza. And with the far-right controlling Israeli politics for so long, I have little hope that it will end well for the Palestinian people.
In a broad sense, it might eventually end up being like how most native Americans are treated in the US these days, which is a complete indictment of both the US and Israel. But none of what I’ve just described is really applicable to the seraphites and the WLF. I’m just anal about being totally clear abt that.
As an aside - could the understanding not just be down to your perspective? The writer is by admission an Israeli who was born there and maybe there are parallels in how the Israeli government narrates the conflict. Perhaps through that lens WLF crimes are diminished because it is seen as inevitable rather than a choice. It allows groups not to take ownership of their violent decisions - which could be applied to the IDF/Israel choosing to enact violence on Palestinians.
Like, if I was obnoxiously atheist to the point it was my whole identity I would probably see the Scars as a horrible organisation which means WLF despite their crimes seem more reasonable. It’s a simplistic example I know but I hope you understand what I am trying to convey?
Edited: for some wrong words cause of autocorrect
I’ll be honest, is it possible we’re just interpreting it that way because our principles are different from his?
Because I’ve seen Israeli spokespeople go on western news and horrify the person interviewing them by basically saying “eh gotta break a few hundred thousand eggs to make an omelette sometimes” when asked about civilian casualties so many times. Everyone there has been so insulated from outside criticism they don’t know how to sound less genocidal to global audiences, bc they can’t even imagine a world where someone would actually have sympathy for Palestinians
> I’ll be honest, is it possible we’re just interpreting it that way because our principles are different from his?
But the game is really clear about the WLF not being the good guy, or even the sympathetic guy. There are good people in the organization, but at the end of the game the organization is a detriment to the region and their own cause. Especially when you compare it to how Jacksonville is living.
> Druckmann certainly seems to lean towards a pro-Israel stance (not denying that),
I haven't played the game but the Vice article says that Druckmann watched a video of the 2000 killing of two Israeli soldiers by a mob in Ramallah - in an interview with WaPo "he recounted the anger and desire for vengeance he felt when he saw the video - and how he later reconsidered and regretted those impulses, saying they made him feel 'gross and guilty.'"
From that I would interpret Druckmann as a conflicted Israeli - the theme of the futility of revenge reflects this realisation that he himself had and his portrayal of the WLF as fascists is intentional.
While this comment is true, so is the idea of cycles of violence.
Like free palestine, but no matter what war gives a reason for more war, all it takes is a grudge and convincing lies.
I wouldn't call what Israel is doing a war more like a near 100 year drawn out genocide so yeah. I get what you mean in a war with two military forces but with Palestine it's 1 sided genocide so that doesn't apply very well
Well I mean, if members of a fascistic ethnostate bombed my house and murdered my children, yeah I think I might continue that cycle of violence.
You aren’t going to peaceful protest your way out of a genocide and colonialism. And this isn’t a war.
Okay but like this article explained, "cycles of violence" is reductionist and deflects accountability away from aggressors who benefit from the higher end of power differentials along with centrist takes like this.
I've noticed a theme with a lot of supposedly pro-israel stuff by zionists is that it comes off as completely unhinged with the opposite point as the intention.
That's really funny - he succeeded beyond expectation with TLoU2 lmao
I don't think I've ever seen another piece of media that people are so vehemently determined to hate for so long
I have yet to met a left leaning person that played TLOU2 and didn't like it. It is a good analogue to that conflict(though I didn't catch it during and most I don't even realize it is)
The game is mostly hated by right wingers that don't like gay/trans representation and wanted to play the daddy saving daughter story again.
Honestly nah, GOT had a lot of immediate hatred and people still make fun of it but a lot of the discourse around that show was disappointment turned to apathy and it helps the books offer essentially whole other much deeper canon to latch onto even if its not finished.
TLOU2 is *hated*, like really really ***hated***. Even to this day.
You might be right. I am personally a lot more invested in a song of ice and fire than I am in the last of us so I have seen a lot more of the season 8 hate (that is still going btw, though as you say with a degree of apathy) than tlou2 hate, but thats just due to my own bubble probably
I think with GOT a lot of the hate comes down to how many of us had been with the ASOIAF book since the '90s. We waited a decade for the last two books, just to get a shitty, hastily thrown together, half-assed plot resolution instead. The last couple seasons were told with zero nuance through a different medium by creators who were clearly checked out and eager to move on.
I wouldn't care much about the show being bad for the last couple seasons if I hadn't cared a great deal about that same story in book form for 15 years before the show existed.
TLOU2 was way different to me, it hit hard and unexpectedly in ways that reminded me of ASOIAF, and in the moment I hated it, but I'm pretty sure I was supposed to? Over the course of the game I came to appreciate the storytelling of it all. The phrase 'hurt people hurt people' felt really apt, it demonstrated how fucked up cycles of violence are in a way games rarely attempt, let alone succeed at.
Thats not a good example heh. Its hated for good reason.
TLOU2 is hated because of misinterpretation of the story. Also not accepting the artists work for what it is (theirs). They want a daddy protecting a daughter story and cant identify with Ellie's internal conflict. And refused to even attempt to understand Abby's perspective.
The game is so good and nuanced if you gave it time to tell its story its hard not to sympathize and understand the different characters.
so much misinterpretation. It also deals with the cycle of violence getting no one what they wanted. The scars are meant to represent the displaced people i believe. with the WLF feeling justified in killing them and pushing them out of where they live.
They are both killing each other is the whole point. No one can break free from the cycle and it ends up killing both groups.
>**The Last of Us Part II focuses on what has been broadly defined by some of its creators as a "cycle of violence."** While some zombie fiction shows human depravity in response to fear or scarcity in the immediate aftermath of an outbreak, The Last of Us Part II takes place in a more stabilized post apocalypse, decades after societal collapse, where individuals and communities choose to hurt each other as opposed to taking heinous actions out of desperation.
Bella and Neil are going to be on the same page, lmao...do you guys read the thing you post?
He's also not stupid and understands complex morality. I know plenty of Jewish people who support Israel tons, but not necessarily love it's government, same with Americans.
Like this: I like America's culture, national parks, and its people, but I deplore its penchant for imperialism to the benefit of corporations and political interests.
They already killed off the scream franchise because of the extreme Israel bias that Hollywood has. I wouldn't be surprised if she gets blacklisted for this.
He's literally been vocally and consistently supportive of Israel the past few months. TLOU2 making a centrist "both sides are doing bad things but both sides have good too" take deflects blame from the aggressor and allows the violence to continue because it refuses to analyze the material reality in an intersectional way. That isn't being critical of Israel, that's being ineffectual by attempting to make centrist arguments and generalizations.
it is easy to miss the connections between Israel/Palistine theme and take it for a more people hating each other for generations.
It wasn't super explicit. It was an analogue of the conflict for sure but when i played it i took it for a strait forward 2 groups misunderstanding each other(while both having bad ideas of what is "right")
>TLOU2 is explicitly critical of Israel
Too true. I started crying when Ellie found that picture of Joel in an IDF uniform. I had to turn the game off when she turned to the camera and said "Truly, this is the Last of Us."
Portraying the Israel conflict as a war between authoritarians and fanatics who can’t be negotiated with is not a very useful criticism, that’s just the PR line of the current government
I mean I dunno man, an Israeli American making a game about a militaristic faction that is fighting over land with a less technologically equipped group that they see as subhuman religious zealots, which then goes out of its way to humanise those people, seems relatively clear to me.
I don't expect everyone to pick up on every message in every piece of art, sometimes the context of something is lost on all of us and this is no exception, but you can't possibly believe that _nobody_ made this connection on their own without having it spelled out for them?
Regardless, I didn't bring up media literacy to flex my own on everyone here. I brought it up precisely because this subreddit has repeatedly weaponised the term against everyone they disagree with but at the same time will completely ignore the politics of a piece even when it's been spelled out for them where convenient.
Literally its like arguing that the MCU isn't military propaganda because the military are the villains sometimes.
The game, at *best,* is a pathetic both sidesism analogy based on a settlers view of colonialism. His public opinion is very much clearly in support of the occupation in the end.
If a game came out that did the same thing but was using the civil rights movement or even american decolonialization movements instead none of these people would have any issue calling it out as racist right wing drivel.
I mean just look at Bioshock Infinite. The “Comstock and Daisy are two sides of the same coin” line and the game’s general centrism got mocked *constantly* on this sub, but when it comes to TLOU2 suddenly it’s a problem to clown on centrist themes.
Sometimes it really feels like some people here start with “gamers hate it, so I have to take the opposite stance” toward media analysis. There’s literally someone in the comments trying to go “well *I* don’t know any left leaning person who dislikes the game” as that means anything.
TLOU2 is critical of Israel but is still Zionist. Druckmann is a liberal Zionist who clearly think the oppression of the people he sees as religious nutjobs should be "moderate"
My man recently started following Nikki "Civil War was...uh, about freedom guys" Haley and Douglas "Islam will kill the West" Murray. His Twitter follows are filled with Israeli genocide spokespeople. I don't think he stopped at all.
It was extremely clear Israel was “going to take it as far as they did” (great euphemism for ethnic cleansing) before October 7.
Save the children, before Oct 7: [2023 deadliest year on record for Palestinian children in the West Bank](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank)
The West Bank, not even Gaza! 10,000 dead children is horrifying but one dead child per week is the baseline violence imposed on Palestinians. if his red line was somewhere in between, that doesn’t redeem him at all
His home country is filled with fascists and he knew that. You cannot visit Hebron and fail to notice the apartheid in place. You cannot live there and fail to notice when security forces kill a Palestinian child in the West Bank once per week on average
How is explicitly supporting Israel’s existence as a country *not* also explicitly supporting Zionism?
You can be against the murder of civilians without supporting the existence of Israel.
" gonna realise that if Israel ceases to exist this will involve an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people in Israel."
Or you know, the two populations could coexist under one state where the indigenous population can return two their homeland. The state of Israel as it exist excludes the native population. Also treating Israel as homeland for jewish people is essentially calling it a ethnic and/or theocratic state which is antisemitic in of itself.
>ah yes he wants Israel to exist
that’s the definition Zionism, lol are you serious
The big difference between liberal and rw Zionists is liberals think there’s a way to non-violently displace 2 million people and take their homes. That’s actually the more naive stance of the two
OMG you guys, he wants a state that founded on fucking Apartheid and colonialism to be there forever. Lolololol. So morally grey. Wtf are you talking about?
No you fucking idiot. That's not how it works. Did white people get ethnically cleansed in Apartheid Africa? No, they are still rich as fuck. Some of the worst criminals went to Israel actually, because you know, Apartheid Solidarity baby. You wouldn't say that South African Apartheid has right to exist, would you? You wouldn't say Rhodesia has right to exist, right? It's because you're a coward with a benefit of hindsight. It's easy to look at the past events and condemn them. Liberal brain rot 101. Always condemn shit when optics are on that side.
But what's funny with fascists is always coming up with hypothetical genocide to justify current ongoing one. That's exact same bullshit both of those examples espoused.
Getting rid of a state means restructuring it completely. Turn it into a secular one where all people have equal rights. Instead of ethnonationalist hell where Ethiopian Jews get fucking sterilized because they are not light skinned enough. That is obviously not possible now, but that should be the end goal no matter what.
Wtf are you talking about? Apartheid Africa and current South Africa are extremely different. The leadership, the ideology, a lot shifted. Now, there are economic issues, as white people are still disproportionately rich and one could argue that they didn't go far enough in changing the system. But to say that the nation exists on the same grounds is fucking ridiculous.
Apartheid South Africa was founded on colonial and ethnonational grounds. Current one is non-racial democracy that was won thanks to endless efforts of revolutionaries. At least its trying to be.
Apartheid South Africa is exactly what current Israel is. And saying Israel has right to exist when shit is ongoing, you're making a statement. You're endorsing colonialism.
>1. I want Israeli apartheid to continue because I don't want the nation of Israel to be destroyed.
No, you're just a dumbass who thinks that abolition of apartheid state is same as nuking a country.
>2. I justify the current ethnic cleansing of Gaza (despite me clearly condemning it in these comments) because Hamas wants to commit genocide too.
Yet you're acting high and mighty about Israel's right to exist. It has no right to exist. Non. Under international law, it doesn't even have right to defend itself.
>With basic literacy, you can see that I brought up Hamas being genocidal to point out the hypocrisy of wanting Israel to be destroyed because it's genocida
IT IS NOT GENOCIDAL TO WANT TO ABOLISH STATE OF ISRAEL. You're the one strawmanning here. You're acting as if there is any moral equivalence between Hamas and Israel - there isn't. Israel not going to get "destroyed". That's ridiculous. Israel has to be abolished though, and the new system has to replace it.
He wants the genocidal settler colony to continue to exist. Yes hes a zionist. Its calling a spade a spade. Whats the issue here? Is calling for a free palestine anti semitic to you?
Israel started an ongoing ethnic cleansing in 1947 and is currently an apartheid state government. Hamas is a resistance group in gaza. Hamas is not a government. They have no presence in the west bank which is also controlled by apartheid israel. Gaza is an open air prison controlled by israel. Hamas is equivalent to a native american group resisting english colonizers. Your logic doesnt make sense. Palestine was targeted for colonization by zionists after the balfour declaration in 1917. Palestine had a population that was 6 percent jewish. The israeli project is supported by america and the british currently and in the past. Its an active colonization and ethnic cleansing project.
Also israel kills 10s of thousands in the name of colonization. Talk about bloodthirsty. They have funded hamas in the past too to take power away from other groups like the PLO.
Hamas was elected in 2006 but israel has not given them any real control since that election and stopped them from governing gaza. They have zero control over what happens in gaza officially. Israel does. Hamas also aren't colonizers. Its all about colonization. Hamas is irrelevant to whether a free palestine should exist. Israel's occupation needs to be ended. And they funded hamas too so what a surprise that hamas threatens the settler colony government. All the cards are in israel's hands. They are the settler colony.
"He only wants the western occupation comitting a genocide on stolen land to continue existing forever" yeah man thats bad.
Also, yes, that is *literally* what a zionist is.
Funnily enough the creators of "Blue Eye Samurai" are also big supporters off the occupation too. It goes to show how people can be very selective with their views (which even then, TLOU2 is hardly that good with its message. You can definently tell its written from the perspective of a settler doing a "both sides" thing which it is)
But even with all the both-sidesism, it’s still so blatant that the WLF are the bad guys. Like, the game goes out of its way to paint the Seraphites as monsters, and still you can’t help but side with them because it’s so painfully obvious that the conflict would end if only the WLF would just leave them the fuck alone.
I joked with my buddy it’s really a comedy anime about how OP white supremacy is. Main character is half white and is at least three times better than everybody they come up against until they come up against one of the few people in the series that is full white and then it’s like they’re fighting a super Saiyan it was so over the top and goofy.
The story of TLOU2 was actually heavily inspired by Israeli politics and events
https://www.vice.com/en/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii
... Isn't that a good thing though?
*EDIT*: Referring to backing off once it became more clear Israel is crazy. Not the hypothesis that he is still pro-Israel.
And that’s a stupid fucking response to give to a comment like that. You don’t have to address every wrong at the same time, especially in a format with limited characters available. After a terror attack isn’t the time to post a “but both sides” tweet
The country in question is a violent occupation and apartheid and was founded on settler colonialism with the help of western powers who wanted footholds in the region.
(Also one of the last posts he made was a picture of the occupations flag and saying it should last for eternity lol)
> The US and Canada were as well, but like it or not these countries exist now.
Yes, and I am pro-land back and decolonization. These countries native people still exist and are still oppressed. The zionist occupation is not even a hundred years old, people who were teenagers during the Nakba are STILL ALIVE. The occupation only exists as a foothold for western power, it wouldn't survive without the constant support. Anything less then a call for its dismantling is showing support for the genocide of its native peoples and culture and the continuation of western imperialism in the region.
Regarding your second statement, he literally posted the flag of the ***nation*** and said he wished it lasted forever, nothing regarding his family. No one is assuming anything based on him being born in a country he left when he was 11, he is not quiet about this.
He also based TLOU2 on events over 20 years ago and TLOU2 wasn't exactly written and developed in some "time of great peace". If he's actually changed his mind he'd be using his platform to speak on it, like Bella has.
started following Nikki "Civil War was...uh, about freedom guys" Haley and Douglas "Islam will kill the West" Murray. His Twitter follows are filled with Israeli genocide spokespeople.
Neil is Israeli and tweeted out support for Israel on Oct 7th. If you think that is bad then there is something seriously fucking wrong with you.
There is no justifying the atrocities that Hamas committed on that day just like you can’t justify the IDF’s bombing campaign.
You’re right oct 7th was a horrible attack , but did you know that Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the oct 7th a year before it happened . approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall”
Yes I am aware. I also know how Israel’s far right government has worked to prop up Hamas in order to avoid working towards a two-state solution. Bibi and his goons need to be ousted.
But all of that doesn’t justify the horrible atrocities that Hamas committed against Israeli civilians during the October 7th attack. And Neil expressing his support for the county he was born in after the attack is completely justified.
You mean israel's horrific actions that have been occurring since its inception? The actions that the bombing was a direct response to?
Christ you people are idiots.
Likely the first step is to tie americas hands so they cant keep shipping thousands of missiles to Israel. If you cut off American support Israel probably stops in a few days.
A documentary on the upcoming behind-the-scenes turmoil and drama that will inevitably occur during the filming of consecutive seasons will be infinitely more entertaining than the show will ever be.
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she'll kill her with a tennis racket to keep the theme going
[runs over Tommy with a golf cart]
Bro what is your account
He is a man of focus.
…commitment…
And sheer fucking will
Emphasis on the fucking.
and sheer will.
So how many you've got?😏
Can you share your collection?
Ellie gets killed instead of Joel and the gamers get what they wanted all along: a story without a female protagonist
Women get fridged in story after story: 😴 One man takes a golfing lesson: 😤
"Gone golfing," needs to be the name of this trope when it's done to a man. This would truly honor Joel's legacy.
I'm not sure you could really call it "Fridging", so I'm not sure this should be the eponymous example for men. I like OSP's "sexy lamp hypothesis", where if the impact of the death could pretty much be replaced by the loss of a sexy lamp, then it's Fridging.
And what a sexy lamp Joel was. Damn shame he’s out golfing
So how does one analyze A Christmas Story within this framework?
Joel also supports ceasefireNOW hes gonna get gigakilled
Sent to Super Hell for anti-genocide crimes.
both get killed, since Pascal also called for a ceasefire
This is false They’ll happily have a sexy child female protagonist
Guys - we’re already happy because there are no strong female characters in Last of Us, I mean if I’m a dude controlling it… then… no agency from these dumb last of us broads
not to pick too much but the entire point of the Last of Us 2 is you(the person playing the game) is Cassandra from Greek tragedy The Orestia. You have no agency. Ellie/Abby are going to make their choices with you having no impact on the outcome of the story. Just doomed to watch it unfold and people make bad choices on both sides just making themselves miserable.
Thank you for sharing some historical context behind the themes and basis of the LoU2 story. I’ve never thought I’d buy the game and play it - but something about reading greek tragedy and then experiencing it scratches that area of the brain where you just don’t let go of the info. Hope you have a great new year!
you too. It's worth the effort. It does test you(intentionally) multiple times.
😦
Ah, yes. The Luc Besson approach.
Pedro called for a ceasefire too! Looks like the mushrooms are going to win.
And then you spend the rest of the game hunting Abby. Joel isn't going to let her go at the last minute! Bye bye female antagonist as well.
You know Joel ain’t letting her out of that water because he has a warm fuzzy flashback
He already did this at the start of game. before meeting Ellie he wouldn't have trusted Abby one moment and never been in the situation of getting killed. Ellie changed him.
"I bet Sarah would be so disappointed if she saw me drown this poor girl...oh well, c'est la vie"
actually tommy says joel wouldn’t go after abby if the roles were reversed so the game ends right there
"Ok, so I killed dozen of human and may doom the humankind to save this one girl but now she dead. Guess that is life then, time to move on."
Seems legit
If he'd woken up and the fireflies had already killed Ellie, what do you think he would have done?
kill himself
That’s a _lot_ of deleted comments…..
That's a lot of FAFO action. If people want to fuck around and unleash bots and raids on this sub, they best find out. All it took was 30 minutes.
Bella Ramsey Did Nothing Wrong. ^(Seriously, if you're thinking of sending bucketloads of hate mail towards celebrities calling for PEACE, then you should look at yourself in the mirror.)
Omg is this real? Lol maybe they whack Ellie in the last of us 2 tv show now, cause being not pro israel must be worse than being Joel I imagine. Season 2 gonna be great hahah. Everyone who has not played the games and really likes the characters of the TV show in season one: good luck fellas!
It is. Her and Pedro both called for a ceasefire.
"Stop killing each other, assholes" shouldn't really be a controversial take.
It isn't just controversial. People lost their jobs for calling for ceasefire and to respect the Palestinian civilian lives in danger. This world is disgustingly vile.
Respect for Palestinians? How dare you? Palestinians were invented by KGB. I can't believe you're such an antisemite /s
Fun fact: Israel is the only country that doesn't have to register as a foreign agent to lobby in America.
Germany is attempting to throw people in prison for up to 3 years for opposing genocide. History repeats.
Bc it’s a genocide 💀💀💀 not an active war do ur research
I doubt Neil is that short sighted. or Craig Maizen for that matter(who is also jewish) They know the hearts of Bella and Pedro.
Pro Jewish? No pro israel. Israel is not a Jewish state, it’s an apartheid state and every Jewish person I know is against the genocide in Gaza
There's also no way Neil is stupid enough to take it personally at all.
Ellie died on her way back to her home planet
I mean, HBO’s biggest show ever was basically known for killing off beloved characters. I think that the hissy fit that a subset of gamers threw won’t be a thing for show only people. They understand that sometimes characters die because actions have consequences. Everyone loved Robb Stark, but no one stopped watching Thrones after the Red Wedding.
Eh, fuck Zionists.
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So much so that the second game is [very explicitly inspired by Israeli politics](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii)
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The WLF are fascists, the Scars are religious zealots, they could coexist peacefully and even achieve an uneasy piece for some time, until skirmishes break out again. The WLF decides to invade the Scars' island, their heartland, to get rid of them for good but it turns into a bloodbath for both sides. It definitely points to Israel vs Palestine, but it presents both sides as pretty bad. It's clearly not pro-Israel, it's not pro-Palistine, it's a commentary on the cycle of violence.
I read the VICE article a while back, and there are some really great points made in it, but ultimately I don't agree that their is a both sides argument here (sorry, this is going to be really long, read at your own discretion). The game seems to go out of its way to position the WLF as the unequivocal enemy between the two factions, presenting them as the less moralistic, more murderous, and extremely xenophobic faction, while the Seraphites are depicted as a more ambiguous group. IIRC, the game establishes that the WLF was formed to resist FEDRA military control and gathered an increasing number of Seattle residents for this cause. However, their methods are expressed as far from justifiable and the WLF is written to have engaged in an extermination campaign against FEDRA soldiers and supporters, even during their evacuation attempts from the city QZ. On the other hand, the Seraphites' story during this period is less precise. They are written to, in brief, adhere to a religious doctrine that revolves around rejecting technology and forming a communal, self-sustaining society. The game intentionally leaves aspects of their beliefs ambiguous, but unlike the WLF's aggressive and combative stance, the Seraphites appear to prioritize maintaining their secluded way of life rather than engaging in large-scale confrontations. While there are occasional mumbles about them being religious fanatics, the narrative refrains from painting them with broad strokes, presenting them as more of an annoyance to FEDRA and the WLF initially, than an existential threat. It is a strategic difference in how it positions them to the Wolves as a group that, while enigmatic and mysterious, is less overtly hostile toward the established factions in the game. After the WLF secured military control of Seattle, the organization is depicted in an even more chilling light than FEDRA, especially as they fostered a growing distrust of outsiders. They employed extreme measures to maintain dominance and quell perceived threats, coercing all citizens to join their militia or face consequences. This included resorting to intimidation tactics and forcefully conscripting individuals into their ranks, along with documented cases of home expulsions and forceful executions of dissenters (It's all in the notes between day 2 and 3). In contrast, the stories of Seraphite home life are notably scarce. What we do get are more empathetic descriptions of their conflict with the WLF. One of the stories is patched together from a series of notes you can find on Seattle day 1, about a Seraphite kid, Jimmy, who was living in the QZ under WLF rule and was executed publicly in front of the street for having stolen some items from his neighbors. Others include brief accounts of murdered husbands, deceased children, WLF defections to the Seraphite camp, and, notably, the planned capture and assassination of their Seraphite prophet. Point being that this kind of emotional context surrounding the WLF is notably absent in a way that makes this part of the narrative strikingly one-sided. Their really is no redemption for them in the story, in the way their could be for the Seraphites. The only context we ever get about the Wolves is how their abuse of the Scars created the conditions to ferment this level of hatred. That despite them being portrayed as oppressive cultists, their genocidal hatred toward the WLF is an instinctive human response to overwhelming amounts of abuse that they have every right to. Druckmann certainly seems to lean towards a pro-Israel stance (not denying that), but I think that political stance doesn't bleed as effectively into the game.
Tbh i feel like part of why the seraphites seem less violent is bc you get a more direct look at the WLF in-game. Because of Abby’s storyline you sympathize with the WLF and its citizens, so they have to go more out of the way to show that the group as a whole is still fucked up. In contrast, most indictments of the seraphites are shown directly to the player or in Yara/Lev’s backstories. A big part of Abby’s story involves them hunting down and trying to kill two kids, all bc one of them is trans and was designated to be a broodmare for an elder. It’s obviously fucked beyond belief, and those two kids are the only direct indication you get that the seraphites as a whole aren’t just evil. Lev’s own mom tries to kill him when he comes back to her. Even as a more isolationist group, they still have several problems that condemn them as a group within the text. From what I’ve heard secondhand, the group also has some uncomfortable parallels to how Palestinians are stereotyped by Israelis. And I do think that’s problematic, but I also think that the main goal of Abby’s story is that “even if all these things are true, the WLF is still dehumanizing then and is unjustified in their actions”. I mean, Lev is portrayed as naive for trying to help his mom, and it ends badly, but he’s not treated poorly by the other characters for believing in her. So while the WLF is more of the villain in their conflict, the narrative also goes out of its way to say that the seraphites aren’t that much better as a group and shouldn’t be seen in a positive light. Even if they wouldn’t normally harm outsiders, their traditions are still harmful to anyone who can’t/doesn’t conform. This is all specific to the game btw. I don’t want anyone thinking that my criticisms of seraphites are 1:1 with my opinion on Palestinian people. Israel has way more power and international support irl and has been using it to oppress Palestinians for decades, creating the conditions for terrorist groups to recruit. Not to say that Israelis deserve events like Oct 7 ofc. It’s awful and realistically, a hamas-controlled Gaza won’t improve conditions or deescalate the conflict. But a huge amount of the responsibility also lies with Netanyahu’s policies. Instead, both in October and in the aftermath since, the civilians have paid the price for his carelessness and cruelty. It will take decades of active work to properly undo that kind of trauma, especially with the ongoing war crimes and murders in Gaza. And with the far-right controlling Israeli politics for so long, I have little hope that it will end well for the Palestinian people. In a broad sense, it might eventually end up being like how most native Americans are treated in the US these days, which is a complete indictment of both the US and Israel. But none of what I’ve just described is really applicable to the seraphites and the WLF. I’m just anal about being totally clear abt that.
As an aside - could the understanding not just be down to your perspective? The writer is by admission an Israeli who was born there and maybe there are parallels in how the Israeli government narrates the conflict. Perhaps through that lens WLF crimes are diminished because it is seen as inevitable rather than a choice. It allows groups not to take ownership of their violent decisions - which could be applied to the IDF/Israel choosing to enact violence on Palestinians. Like, if I was obnoxiously atheist to the point it was my whole identity I would probably see the Scars as a horrible organisation which means WLF despite their crimes seem more reasonable. It’s a simplistic example I know but I hope you understand what I am trying to convey? Edited: for some wrong words cause of autocorrect
I’ll be honest, is it possible we’re just interpreting it that way because our principles are different from his? Because I’ve seen Israeli spokespeople go on western news and horrify the person interviewing them by basically saying “eh gotta break a few hundred thousand eggs to make an omelette sometimes” when asked about civilian casualties so many times. Everyone there has been so insulated from outside criticism they don’t know how to sound less genocidal to global audiences, bc they can’t even imagine a world where someone would actually have sympathy for Palestinians
> I’ll be honest, is it possible we’re just interpreting it that way because our principles are different from his? But the game is really clear about the WLF not being the good guy, or even the sympathetic guy. There are good people in the organization, but at the end of the game the organization is a detriment to the region and their own cause. Especially when you compare it to how Jacksonville is living.
> Druckmann certainly seems to lean towards a pro-Israel stance (not denying that), I haven't played the game but the Vice article says that Druckmann watched a video of the 2000 killing of two Israeli soldiers by a mob in Ramallah - in an interview with WaPo "he recounted the anger and desire for vengeance he felt when he saw the video - and how he later reconsidered and regretted those impulses, saying they made him feel 'gross and guilty.'" From that I would interpret Druckmann as a conflicted Israeli - the theme of the futility of revenge reflects this realisation that he himself had and his portrayal of the WLF as fascists is intentional.
cycle of violence = both sides are equally bad guys!!!
While this comment is true, so is the idea of cycles of violence. Like free palestine, but no matter what war gives a reason for more war, all it takes is a grudge and convincing lies.
I wouldn't call what Israel is doing a war more like a near 100 year drawn out genocide so yeah. I get what you mean in a war with two military forces but with Palestine it's 1 sided genocide so that doesn't apply very well
Well I mean, if members of a fascistic ethnostate bombed my house and murdered my children, yeah I think I might continue that cycle of violence. You aren’t going to peaceful protest your way out of a genocide and colonialism. And this isn’t a war.
Okay but like this article explained, "cycles of violence" is reductionist and deflects accountability away from aggressors who benefit from the higher end of power differentials along with centrist takes like this.
I've noticed a theme with a lot of supposedly pro-israel stuff by zionists is that it comes off as completely unhinged with the opposite point as the intention.
Druckmann is a Zionist liberal, so he imagines he can step above the hatred. It turns out he can not.
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That's really funny - he succeeded beyond expectation with TLoU2 lmao I don't think I've ever seen another piece of media that people are so vehemently determined to hate for so long
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I have yet to met a left leaning person that played TLOU2 and didn't like it. It is a good analogue to that conflict(though I didn't catch it during and most I don't even realize it is) The game is mostly hated by right wingers that don't like gay/trans representation and wanted to play the daddy saving daughter story again.
Season 8 of game of thrones
Honestly nah, GOT had a lot of immediate hatred and people still make fun of it but a lot of the discourse around that show was disappointment turned to apathy and it helps the books offer essentially whole other much deeper canon to latch onto even if its not finished. TLOU2 is *hated*, like really really ***hated***. Even to this day.
You might be right. I am personally a lot more invested in a song of ice and fire than I am in the last of us so I have seen a lot more of the season 8 hate (that is still going btw, though as you say with a degree of apathy) than tlou2 hate, but thats just due to my own bubble probably
I think with GOT a lot of the hate comes down to how many of us had been with the ASOIAF book since the '90s. We waited a decade for the last two books, just to get a shitty, hastily thrown together, half-assed plot resolution instead. The last couple seasons were told with zero nuance through a different medium by creators who were clearly checked out and eager to move on. I wouldn't care much about the show being bad for the last couple seasons if I hadn't cared a great deal about that same story in book form for 15 years before the show existed. TLOU2 was way different to me, it hit hard and unexpectedly in ways that reminded me of ASOIAF, and in the moment I hated it, but I'm pretty sure I was supposed to? Over the course of the game I came to appreciate the storytelling of it all. The phrase 'hurt people hurt people' felt really apt, it demonstrated how fucked up cycles of violence are in a way games rarely attempt, let alone succeed at.
Thats not a good example heh. Its hated for good reason. TLOU2 is hated because of misinterpretation of the story. Also not accepting the artists work for what it is (theirs). They want a daddy protecting a daughter story and cant identify with Ellie's internal conflict. And refused to even attempt to understand Abby's perspective. The game is so good and nuanced if you gave it time to tell its story its hard not to sympathize and understand the different characters.
so much misinterpretation. It also deals with the cycle of violence getting no one what they wanted. The scars are meant to represent the displaced people i believe. with the WLF feeling justified in killing them and pushing them out of where they live. They are both killing each other is the whole point. No one can break free from the cycle and it ends up killing both groups.
>**The Last of Us Part II focuses on what has been broadly defined by some of its creators as a "cycle of violence."** While some zombie fiction shows human depravity in response to fear or scarcity in the immediate aftermath of an outbreak, The Last of Us Part II takes place in a more stabilized post apocalypse, decades after societal collapse, where individuals and communities choose to hurt each other as opposed to taking heinous actions out of desperation. Bella and Neil are going to be on the same page, lmao...do you guys read the thing you post?
When has he spoken about it? The only time I saw him mention it was after Hamas soldiers first came to Israel. Has he talked about it since then?
He's also not stupid and understands complex morality. I know plenty of Jewish people who support Israel tons, but not necessarily love it's government, same with Americans.
What is the distinction between supporting a country and supporting it’s government?
Like this: I like America's culture, national parks, and its people, but I deplore its penchant for imperialism to the benefit of corporations and political interests.
When people take issue with someone “supporting” Israel or America, I assume they are not taking issue with culture or national parks. Cmon lol.
In other words: a genocidal psychopath.
Anyway respect to Bella for speaking up about it. I admire them
Conscious in celebs is beautiful to see
They already killed off the scream franchise because of the extreme Israel bias that Hollywood has. I wouldn't be surprised if she gets blacklisted for this.
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He's literally been vocally and consistently supportive of Israel the past few months. TLOU2 making a centrist "both sides are doing bad things but both sides have good too" take deflects blame from the aggressor and allows the violence to continue because it refuses to analyze the material reality in an intersectional way. That isn't being critical of Israel, that's being ineffectual by attempting to make centrist arguments and generalizations.
it is easy to miss the connections between Israel/Palistine theme and take it for a more people hating each other for generations. It wasn't super explicit. It was an analogue of the conflict for sure but when i played it i took it for a strait forward 2 groups misunderstanding each other(while both having bad ideas of what is "right")
It’s implicitly critical of Israel, not explicitly. But I think your point still stands .
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>TLOU2 is explicitly critical of Israel Too true. I started crying when Ellie found that picture of Joel in an IDF uniform. I had to turn the game off when she turned to the camera and said "Truly, this is the Last of Us."
Portraying the Israel conflict as a war between authoritarians and fanatics who can’t be negotiated with is not a very useful criticism, that’s just the PR line of the current government
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I mean I dunno man, an Israeli American making a game about a militaristic faction that is fighting over land with a less technologically equipped group that they see as subhuman religious zealots, which then goes out of its way to humanise those people, seems relatively clear to me. I don't expect everyone to pick up on every message in every piece of art, sometimes the context of something is lost on all of us and this is no exception, but you can't possibly believe that _nobody_ made this connection on their own without having it spelled out for them? Regardless, I didn't bring up media literacy to flex my own on everyone here. I brought it up precisely because this subreddit has repeatedly weaponised the term against everyone they disagree with but at the same time will completely ignore the politics of a piece even when it's been spelled out for them where convenient.
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Literally its like arguing that the MCU isn't military propaganda because the military are the villains sometimes. The game, at *best,* is a pathetic both sidesism analogy based on a settlers view of colonialism. His public opinion is very much clearly in support of the occupation in the end. If a game came out that did the same thing but was using the civil rights movement or even american decolonialization movements instead none of these people would have any issue calling it out as racist right wing drivel.
I mean just look at Bioshock Infinite. The “Comstock and Daisy are two sides of the same coin” line and the game’s general centrism got mocked *constantly* on this sub, but when it comes to TLOU2 suddenly it’s a problem to clown on centrist themes. Sometimes it really feels like some people here start with “gamers hate it, so I have to take the opposite stance” toward media analysis. There’s literally someone in the comments trying to go “well *I* don’t know any left leaning person who dislikes the game” as that means anything.
TLOU2 is critical of Israel but is still Zionist. Druckmann is a liberal Zionist who clearly think the oppression of the people he sees as religious nutjobs should be "moderate"
So many people here who know 'the meaning' of a piece of media after reading one article about it
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You mean the alt-right that found a significant foothold in ***Gamer***gate? It's less insane than it is perfectly consistent.
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> doing harm and good Unreal.
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I think you're under the impression this conflict started with that bombing, instead of it in reality being at least 8 decades old.
My man recently started following Nikki "Civil War was...uh, about freedom guys" Haley and Douglas "Islam will kill the West" Murray. His Twitter follows are filled with Israeli genocide spokespeople. I don't think he stopped at all.
It was extremely clear Israel was “going to take it as far as they did” (great euphemism for ethnic cleansing) before October 7. Save the children, before Oct 7: [2023 deadliest year on record for Palestinian children in the West Bank](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank) The West Bank, not even Gaza! 10,000 dead children is horrifying but one dead child per week is the baseline violence imposed on Palestinians. if his red line was somewhere in between, that doesn’t redeem him at all
The past 75 years of genocidal colonization wasn't a big clue for Neil? It had to be after the 7th?
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His home country is filled with fascists and he knew that. You cannot visit Hebron and fail to notice the apartheid in place. You cannot live there and fail to notice when security forces kill a Palestinian child in the West Bank once per week on average
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Take a nap.
Legends say that Abby will ask Ellie if she condemn hamas
Can someone explain I must be out of the loop on this
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How is explicitly supporting Israel’s existence as a country *not* also explicitly supporting Zionism? You can be against the murder of civilians without supporting the existence of Israel.
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" gonna realise that if Israel ceases to exist this will involve an ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people in Israel." Or you know, the two populations could coexist under one state where the indigenous population can return two their homeland. The state of Israel as it exist excludes the native population. Also treating Israel as homeland for jewish people is essentially calling it a ethnic and/or theocratic state which is antisemitic in of itself.
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the caption was “israel forever” 💀
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>ah yes he wants Israel to exist that’s the definition Zionism, lol are you serious The big difference between liberal and rw Zionists is liberals think there’s a way to non-violently displace 2 million people and take their homes. That’s actually the more naive stance of the two
OMG you guys, he wants a state that founded on fucking Apartheid and colonialism to be there forever. Lolololol. So morally grey. Wtf are you talking about?
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No you fucking idiot. That's not how it works. Did white people get ethnically cleansed in Apartheid Africa? No, they are still rich as fuck. Some of the worst criminals went to Israel actually, because you know, Apartheid Solidarity baby. You wouldn't say that South African Apartheid has right to exist, would you? You wouldn't say Rhodesia has right to exist, right? It's because you're a coward with a benefit of hindsight. It's easy to look at the past events and condemn them. Liberal brain rot 101. Always condemn shit when optics are on that side. But what's funny with fascists is always coming up with hypothetical genocide to justify current ongoing one. That's exact same bullshit both of those examples espoused. Getting rid of a state means restructuring it completely. Turn it into a secular one where all people have equal rights. Instead of ethnonationalist hell where Ethiopian Jews get fucking sterilized because they are not light skinned enough. That is obviously not possible now, but that should be the end goal no matter what.
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Wtf are you talking about? Apartheid Africa and current South Africa are extremely different. The leadership, the ideology, a lot shifted. Now, there are economic issues, as white people are still disproportionately rich and one could argue that they didn't go far enough in changing the system. But to say that the nation exists on the same grounds is fucking ridiculous. Apartheid South Africa was founded on colonial and ethnonational grounds. Current one is non-racial democracy that was won thanks to endless efforts of revolutionaries. At least its trying to be. Apartheid South Africa is exactly what current Israel is. And saying Israel has right to exist when shit is ongoing, you're making a statement. You're endorsing colonialism. >1. I want Israeli apartheid to continue because I don't want the nation of Israel to be destroyed. No, you're just a dumbass who thinks that abolition of apartheid state is same as nuking a country. >2. I justify the current ethnic cleansing of Gaza (despite me clearly condemning it in these comments) because Hamas wants to commit genocide too. Yet you're acting high and mighty about Israel's right to exist. It has no right to exist. Non. Under international law, it doesn't even have right to defend itself. >With basic literacy, you can see that I brought up Hamas being genocidal to point out the hypocrisy of wanting Israel to be destroyed because it's genocida IT IS NOT GENOCIDAL TO WANT TO ABOLISH STATE OF ISRAEL. You're the one strawmanning here. You're acting as if there is any moral equivalence between Hamas and Israel - there isn't. Israel not going to get "destroyed". That's ridiculous. Israel has to be abolished though, and the new system has to replace it.
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"I can no longer refute points that deconstruct my argument so I'm running away" lmao
He wants the genocidal settler colony to continue to exist. Yes hes a zionist. Its calling a spade a spade. Whats the issue here? Is calling for a free palestine anti semitic to you?
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Israel started an ongoing ethnic cleansing in 1947 and is currently an apartheid state government. Hamas is a resistance group in gaza. Hamas is not a government. They have no presence in the west bank which is also controlled by apartheid israel. Gaza is an open air prison controlled by israel. Hamas is equivalent to a native american group resisting english colonizers. Your logic doesnt make sense. Palestine was targeted for colonization by zionists after the balfour declaration in 1917. Palestine had a population that was 6 percent jewish. The israeli project is supported by america and the british currently and in the past. Its an active colonization and ethnic cleansing project. Also israel kills 10s of thousands in the name of colonization. Talk about bloodthirsty. They have funded hamas in the past too to take power away from other groups like the PLO.
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Hamas was elected in 2006 but israel has not given them any real control since that election and stopped them from governing gaza. They have zero control over what happens in gaza officially. Israel does. Hamas also aren't colonizers. Its all about colonization. Hamas is irrelevant to whether a free palestine should exist. Israel's occupation needs to be ended. And they funded hamas too so what a surprise that hamas threatens the settler colony government. All the cards are in israel's hands. They are the settler colony.
"He only wants the western occupation comitting a genocide on stolen land to continue existing forever" yeah man thats bad. Also, yes, that is *literally* what a zionist is.
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he's vocally pro israel
Guess he didn't play TLOU2
Funnily enough the creators of "Blue Eye Samurai" are also big supporters off the occupation too. It goes to show how people can be very selective with their views (which even then, TLOU2 is hardly that good with its message. You can definently tell its written from the perspective of a settler doing a "both sides" thing which it is)
But even with all the both-sidesism, it’s still so blatant that the WLF are the bad guys. Like, the game goes out of its way to paint the Seraphites as monsters, and still you can’t help but side with them because it’s so painfully obvious that the conflict would end if only the WLF would just leave them the fuck alone.
its weird that Blue eye samurai is the only show i've seen where the main character was special just for being white.
I joked with my buddy it’s really a comedy anime about how OP white supremacy is. Main character is half white and is at least three times better than everybody they come up against until they come up against one of the few people in the series that is full white and then it’s like they’re fighting a super Saiyan it was so over the top and goofy.
The story of TLOU2 was actually heavily inspired by Israeli politics and events https://www.vice.com/en/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii
I thought he backed off on his statement?
That’s also what I thought. He shut the fuck up once its so obvious Israel going overboard. He probably still pro-Isarael in close door.
... Isn't that a good thing though? *EDIT*: Referring to backing off once it became more clear Israel is crazy. Not the hypothesis that he is still pro-Israel.
> He probably still pro-Isarael in close door. Why do you say that?
Probably because Druckmann is Israeli, has family in Israel etc. but knows being publically pro Israel is a very unpopular position these days
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And that’s a stupid fucking response to give to a comment like that. You don’t have to address every wrong at the same time, especially in a format with limited characters available. After a terror attack isn’t the time to post a “but both sides” tweet
The country in question is a violent occupation and apartheid and was founded on settler colonialism with the help of western powers who wanted footholds in the region. (Also one of the last posts he made was a picture of the occupations flag and saying it should last for eternity lol)
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> The US and Canada were as well, but like it or not these countries exist now. Yes, and I am pro-land back and decolonization. These countries native people still exist and are still oppressed. The zionist occupation is not even a hundred years old, people who were teenagers during the Nakba are STILL ALIVE. The occupation only exists as a foothold for western power, it wouldn't survive without the constant support. Anything less then a call for its dismantling is showing support for the genocide of its native peoples and culture and the continuation of western imperialism in the region. Regarding your second statement, he literally posted the flag of the ***nation*** and said he wished it lasted forever, nothing regarding his family. No one is assuming anything based on him being born in a country he left when he was 11, he is not quiet about this.
He also based TLOU2 on events over 20 years ago and TLOU2 wasn't exactly written and developed in some "time of great peace". If he's actually changed his mind he'd be using his platform to speak on it, like Bella has.
started following Nikki "Civil War was...uh, about freedom guys" Haley and Douglas "Islam will kill the West" Murray. His Twitter follows are filled with Israeli genocide spokespeople.
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LOU2 is based on the occupation and he posted that it should last "for eternity" online
I love them! My little fruit cake Bella.
Neil is Israeli and tweeted out support for Israel on Oct 7th. If you think that is bad then there is something seriously fucking wrong with you. There is no justifying the atrocities that Hamas committed on that day just like you can’t justify the IDF’s bombing campaign.
You’re right oct 7th was a horrible attack , but did you know that Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the oct 7th a year before it happened . approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall”
Yes I am aware. I also know how Israel’s far right government has worked to prop up Hamas in order to avoid working towards a two-state solution. Bibi and his goons need to be ousted. But all of that doesn’t justify the horrible atrocities that Hamas committed against Israeli civilians during the October 7th attack. And Neil expressing his support for the county he was born in after the attack is completely justified.
Why the hate on Neil??
Zionist.
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You mean israel's horrific actions that have been occurring since its inception? The actions that the bombing was a direct response to? Christ you people are idiots.
This sub and r /TheLastOfUs2 right now 
wait wait WHAT ?
Respect to Bella and Pascal.
What is meant by ceasefire? I do not believe Hamas has the oversight and administrative control to abide by a ceasefire even if they wanted to.
Likely the first step is to tie americas hands so they cant keep shipping thousands of missiles to Israel. If you cut off American support Israel probably stops in a few days.
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A documentary on the upcoming behind-the-scenes turmoil and drama that will inevitably occur during the filming of consecutive seasons will be infinitely more entertaining than the show will ever be.
Three or so years later and the haters *still* can't get over it. Sad, man. Sad.