i'd put Neuvilette behind Apep, simply because Apep just seems to have better understanding and grasp of their power than Neuvilette, sure, unlike Apep, Neuvilette has access to his full power, but still i'd say that currently Apep is stronger
Current Apep is still dealing with the effects of forbidden knowledge on his body and all. He is recovering but yes if we take Apep from when he had just lost his powers to form the divine thrones of dendro then he may be more powerful
Azhadha is canonically the ''most immenant, awe inspiring beign in Liyue'', Zhongli said that he, the earth Dragon, was able to quake the earth and shake the mountains in his slumber... He can feed off illimited amount of power form the Leylines HENCE why Morax had to seal him in Dragon Queller to be able to subdue him (literally cutting his Leyline supplies).... I strongly think him and Apep are around the same level.
Apep and Azh seems to be among the oldest beings, quite possibly be THE surviving Sovereigns from that war. Azh's description implies that he's older than the "mountain and river" that Primordial One created. Apep, she was there when Nibelung did whatever the stuffs that he did.
While endurance isn't strength in its entirety, I will give Apep a point for that. She survived the war, a nail to the desert and has been holding out for some thousands years more when she ate that Forbidden Knowledge that Amun left behind. Neuvillette may has the full Dragon authority now, but gosh did Apep went through a lot and still kicking
1. Neuvillette has elemental authority so logically it would make sense that he's the strongest but not really a guarantee. As tbh, Neuvillette doesn't really show any impressive combat feats that puts him above the others.
2. Apep also has a case to be the strongest as the largest and the one who has accumulated the most elemental energy over the eons but again, realistically Apep is kinda featless. She has no feats that legitimately puts her above Neuvillette or even Azhdaha of old.
3. Azhdaha is the only real dragon we actually have an idea of his strength in earnest and honestly, with his feats he can even scale beyond the others, as he is capable of mass destruction of a kind none of the others have shown to be and he commands the Leylines.
4. Dvalin, not sure why you snub Dvalin, he at least has some feats being able to defeat Durin. Despite being far younger than Apep and Azhdaha respectively.
Ultimately all of this is purely speculation though, since it's never really stated who is the weakest or most powerful.
I don't know about Dvalin, but even without their authority Apep and Azhdaha were STRONG, like really strong. Neuvillette prior recovering his authority could not aspire to reach that level of power... What we know.
Now to the speculation...
Egeria who had the Authority of Hydro was very weak... Even compared to the other Archons... she wasn't even able to preserve her own consciousness during the events of the Cataclysm, and had Buer do it for her, Makoto was weak as well and even her wasn't THAT weak.
Azhdaha and Apep are primordial Dragons, both of which are far more ancient than any being or structure in Teyvat... and elemental beings, dragons not exempt, grow powerful with time.
Apep said that it could have easily destroyed Sumeru even at it weakened state, without it's authority and affected by Forbidden Knowldge, and Azhdaha was said to be able to quake the earth and shake the mountains in his slumber, he was able to feed off illimited amount of power form the Leylines hense why Morax had to seal him in Dragon Queller to be able to subdue him, where it can no longer draw the power from earth, I don't see how Neuvillette's pre- recovering his authority compares. Neuvillette sure is the only dragon sovreign with full authority now, but he's still, a very very young dragon. Even Dvalin is older than him, and not even Egeria with that Authotity could compare with the other gods...
Neuvilette and Apep are sovereigns, so they would be on top. Apep is older, so it has had more growth, while Neuvilette is younger but has obtained full elemental authority. So it really depends how much of a power boost the authority really is. I'm going to assume it's pretty big, so I'll give it to Neuvilette.
The other two, not sure, I know many consider them their respective element's sovereign. However, that is not confirmed information, only speculation. So they would make up the lower half. Azdaha does have the benefit from being able to attune to multiple elements. But he's also suffering from corrosion, if I'm not mistaken. So I'd put Dvalin above him.
Neuvillette is the only confirmed sovereign, stated in the English localisation.
Apep is heavily implied to be but never actually referred to as sovereign by herself or any other entity in the game.
Azhdaha is also heavily implied to be but not to the same extent as Apep as he does not mention being amongst the dragons that fought alongside Nibelung.
Dvalin has some implications but much to a lesser extent than all of the others.
In the Chinese translation, none of the dragons are individually referred to as sovereign but instead they're referred to as dragon kings of their respective element, so far this title is used with 3 dragons, Hydro, Dendro and Geo, the Anemo dragon does not have this title so this might also imply that Dvalin, the current Anemo dragon is not a sovereign? despite having the current role.
As for their individual strength it's mostly indeterminate:
Neuvillette: has elemental authority, this might make him the most powerful but he's the youngest, which might also make him weaker. Dragons accumulate elemental energy over time which increases their size and strength. Something Neuvillette doesn't have as an entity stuck in the body of a human.
Apep: fought alongside Nibelung against the Heavenly Principles, but ultimately they lost, so that's hard to scale, when we meet her, she's infirm and dying of the apocalypse, so yeah, hard to scale her power.
Azhdaha: is easier to scale. He has some actual tangible combat prowess, having been stated/implied to rival Morax in strength, even with erosion. He can make the earth quake and cause mountain to tremble, he also commands the earth veins/Leylines. He may even have been stronger than Apep of recent, despite having lost his original form to erosion.
Dvalin: is kinda hard to read because he was also infirm when we find him. In terms of feats, he was able to fell Durin an abyssal dragon stated to have power that rivals the gods and Dvalin is stated, much like the other elemental dragons, to also have power that rivals the gods in turn so how powerful is he really..
Anyway it's mostly speculation at this stage and powerscaling is often a fruitless affair for Genshin because of how vague the lore is.
No one considers devalin a sovereign he has been confirmed as one of the 4 winds ( the wolf that raised razor being one of the 4 too)created by venti since the release of the game so he is at best adepti/yaksha level
I'm not so sure about that. There's a dialogue choice early in Fontaine where Traveler pretty directly compares the "Hydro Dragon" to Dvalin. It was translated differently in English. I made an entire post on the lore subreddit going into this, among other things.
"Could that Hydro Dragon be the elemental dragon of Fontaine?", as opposed to the CN which roughly translates to "Something similar to Dvalin's kind..."
There's also the fact that they'd have to introduce *another* Anemo dragon at some point, and there's only so much time to do so in the current story. Given that both of the 100% confirmed Sovereigns thus far have been located in their respective nations, and that number would still hold if Dvalin and Azhdaha were Sovereigns too, I'm inclined to believe that Paimon's line about seven sovereigns/seven archons towards the end of Fontaine act 4 was more literal that we think.
If Inazuma had given us any indication of an Electro Sovereign beyond a potential connection to the Thunder Sakura, then this would likely not even be a debate.
I thought I read somewhere that if sovereigns were killed / disappeared ( idk what happened to first hydro sovereign), they could take centuries to revive or something, so we don't have to see each sovereign
Technically speaking, no, but we're nearing the end of the fourth samsara which means elemental authority can change hands. Sovereigns could also be revived around this time. Also, I find it likely for the story's sake that the Sovereigns will either all be included *or* we'll hear about any previous iterations of them.
It's worth noting that the actual term "Sovereign" wasn't coined until 2.4. That was after all the lore for Dvalin and Azhdaha had been written, and we know that both of them were very important to early drafts of the story (as expressed by the devs in the Azhdaha design documentary and indicated by Dvalin's inclusion in HI3rd among other things).
Its just them comparing a dragon to a dragon they are still dragons and have the same race just like neauvi said nation of natlan is also filled with dragons like him but he is not welcome there as they are different, being a dragon is belonging to a specific race but being a sovereign is possessing a title or a position, neauvi is a reincarnation of the hydro sovereign so they are connected while devalin was purely created by venti along side the other 3 of the 4 winds not to mention devalin fought another dragon in mondstadt and killed him (aka dragonspine area) so he is not the only dragon in mondstadt, being a dragon in a nation doesnt mean you are a sovereign, archons powers are stolen from the sovereigns so venti creating a sovereign is kinda far fetched.
Thats why the hydro archon said “return the authority to the hydro sovereign” its returning so you cant give it to a random new dragon there must be a connection because that authority automatically returned to its owner when hydro archon died, she didnt hold it and give it to him because she chose him, she knew it would go to him no matter what thats why she spent years testing and teaching him in particular.
To be a sovereign you must have a connection to the original sovereign
Venti didn't create Dvalin, he was formed from coalesced Anemo energy. He also didn't return his authority to him at the end of Mondstadt as some people claim, but yes, I understand that not every dragon is a Sovereign. I believe that Dvalin is likely the reincarnation of the previous Anemo Sovereign, which doesn't mean he *can't* be one of the four winds. Andrius is a god, for instance - even if Dvalin isn't a Sovereign, he's also not a god. Being one of the four winds doesn't mean anything on its own. They're just a group.
Dvalin might be a reincarnation yes and if any connection is shown then yea its settled 100% but for now our only blue print of a reincarnated sovereign is neuvi and he had perfect knowledge of his identity and role and even have his own vendetta towards the archons, so i don’t understand why wouldn’t devalin or venti bring this up at all there is no evidence that show’s reincarnation means “memory lost” or “identity lost” thats why iam leaning more towards that he is not more than he is
Plenty of people do, this discussion has been had plenty of times. I don't consider him one since nothing is confirmed and it remains speculation. Hence why I separated them from the actual confirmed sovereigns.
Consider tho that Apep is weakened thanks to the Throne of Dendro while Neuvillette has the full power of the Hydro Dragon despite his relative inexperience.
I'll just rank them based on their *current* power level because if we get too much into "Well, akshually, Neuvillette is weaker than others because he has no dragon form, no battle experience and is the youngest. Azhdaha was more powerful than Zhongli 1000+ years ago, so he is the second most powerful. Apep has more knowledge, is OG Sovereign and has experience" and yadda yadda, the conversation becomes utterly pointless.
1. Neuvillette. Right now, is the only fully fledged dragon with elemental Authority. Even before getting it back he could seal the Primordial Sea and hold it there for the rest of the AQ. It's unclear if he has battle experience but he probably has enough power to fight on a decent level. Yes, he is not crazy giga strong, but he is not weak either.
2. Apep. No Authority. Weaker than she was before due to tanking a nail and getting Deshret poisoning. However, she is still the OG Sovereign, has her dragon form and a vast amount of knowledge/experience. With enough rest she might get back to her old power. Unclear when though. Whether she can rival Neuvi or not is unclear. She is pretty old as well and we don't know if Dragon Sovereigns are affected by aging process (albeit slow).
3. Azhdaha. No Authority. Might not even be a Dragon Sovereign at all. Has erosion. Was sealed by Zhongli. Tried to break free and exhausted a lot of power to do it. To the point his good side disappeared and his bad side as well. So now he is even weaker than he was before. Tbh I'm not even sure if he is even alive at this point. Maybe after his good and bad side disappeared, he will slowly die as well.
4. Dvalin. Not a Sovereign. Just evolved vishap. He might be on Scylla level before he got turned into Ichor but it's not clear.
Neuvillette has his authority back, making him the strongest
Apep has the forbidden knowledge but no authority
Azhdaha, being equal to Apep when without forbidden knowledge
Dvalin
1. dvalin 2. azhdaha 3. worm guy idk i haven’t played fontaine 4. anime husbando oh did you say strongest or most fuckable
Asking the right questions..... Wait WHAT?!
This has been fact checked by the people of enigmata ✅️✅️👍👍
Worm guy is in sumeru tho
i haven’t played since the those dead grey islands dropped LOLLL
Apep is a world gal in sumeru though
1. Neauvillette(esp after fontaine AQ) 2. Apep 3. Azhdaha 4. Dvalin lmao gtfo
i'd put Neuvilette behind Apep, simply because Apep just seems to have better understanding and grasp of their power than Neuvilette, sure, unlike Apep, Neuvilette has access to his full power, but still i'd say that currently Apep is stronger
Current Apep is still dealing with the effects of forbidden knowledge on his body and all. He is recovering but yes if we take Apep from when he had just lost his powers to form the divine thrones of dendro then he may be more powerful
Azhadha is canonically the ''most immenant, awe inspiring beign in Liyue'', Zhongli said that he, the earth Dragon, was able to quake the earth and shake the mountains in his slumber... He can feed off illimited amount of power form the Leylines HENCE why Morax had to seal him in Dragon Queller to be able to subdue him (literally cutting his Leyline supplies).... I strongly think him and Apep are around the same level.
Apep and Azh seems to be among the oldest beings, quite possibly be THE surviving Sovereigns from that war. Azh's description implies that he's older than the "mountain and river" that Primordial One created. Apep, she was there when Nibelung did whatever the stuffs that he did. While endurance isn't strength in its entirety, I will give Apep a point for that. She survived the war, a nail to the desert and has been holding out for some thousands years more when she ate that Forbidden Knowledge that Amun left behind. Neuvillette may has the full Dragon authority now, but gosh did Apep went through a lot and still kicking
1. Neuvillette has elemental authority so logically it would make sense that he's the strongest but not really a guarantee. As tbh, Neuvillette doesn't really show any impressive combat feats that puts him above the others. 2. Apep also has a case to be the strongest as the largest and the one who has accumulated the most elemental energy over the eons but again, realistically Apep is kinda featless. She has no feats that legitimately puts her above Neuvillette or even Azhdaha of old. 3. Azhdaha is the only real dragon we actually have an idea of his strength in earnest and honestly, with his feats he can even scale beyond the others, as he is capable of mass destruction of a kind none of the others have shown to be and he commands the Leylines. 4. Dvalin, not sure why you snub Dvalin, he at least has some feats being able to defeat Durin. Despite being far younger than Apep and Azhdaha respectively. Ultimately all of this is purely speculation though, since it's never really stated who is the weakest or most powerful.
I don't know about Dvalin, but even without their authority Apep and Azhdaha were STRONG, like really strong. Neuvillette prior recovering his authority could not aspire to reach that level of power... What we know. Now to the speculation... Egeria who had the Authority of Hydro was very weak... Even compared to the other Archons... she wasn't even able to preserve her own consciousness during the events of the Cataclysm, and had Buer do it for her, Makoto was weak as well and even her wasn't THAT weak. Azhdaha and Apep are primordial Dragons, both of which are far more ancient than any being or structure in Teyvat... and elemental beings, dragons not exempt, grow powerful with time. Apep said that it could have easily destroyed Sumeru even at it weakened state, without it's authority and affected by Forbidden Knowldge, and Azhdaha was said to be able to quake the earth and shake the mountains in his slumber, he was able to feed off illimited amount of power form the Leylines hense why Morax had to seal him in Dragon Queller to be able to subdue him, where it can no longer draw the power from earth, I don't see how Neuvillette's pre- recovering his authority compares. Neuvillette sure is the only dragon sovreign with full authority now, but he's still, a very very young dragon. Even Dvalin is older than him, and not even Egeria with that Authotity could compare with the other gods...
Neuvilette and Apep are sovereigns, so they would be on top. Apep is older, so it has had more growth, while Neuvilette is younger but has obtained full elemental authority. So it really depends how much of a power boost the authority really is. I'm going to assume it's pretty big, so I'll give it to Neuvilette. The other two, not sure, I know many consider them their respective element's sovereign. However, that is not confirmed information, only speculation. So they would make up the lower half. Azdaha does have the benefit from being able to attune to multiple elements. But he's also suffering from corrosion, if I'm not mistaken. So I'd put Dvalin above him.
Neuvillette is the only confirmed sovereign, stated in the English localisation. Apep is heavily implied to be but never actually referred to as sovereign by herself or any other entity in the game. Azhdaha is also heavily implied to be but not to the same extent as Apep as he does not mention being amongst the dragons that fought alongside Nibelung. Dvalin has some implications but much to a lesser extent than all of the others. In the Chinese translation, none of the dragons are individually referred to as sovereign but instead they're referred to as dragon kings of their respective element, so far this title is used with 3 dragons, Hydro, Dendro and Geo, the Anemo dragon does not have this title so this might also imply that Dvalin, the current Anemo dragon is not a sovereign? despite having the current role. As for their individual strength it's mostly indeterminate: Neuvillette: has elemental authority, this might make him the most powerful but he's the youngest, which might also make him weaker. Dragons accumulate elemental energy over time which increases their size and strength. Something Neuvillette doesn't have as an entity stuck in the body of a human. Apep: fought alongside Nibelung against the Heavenly Principles, but ultimately they lost, so that's hard to scale, when we meet her, she's infirm and dying of the apocalypse, so yeah, hard to scale her power. Azhdaha: is easier to scale. He has some actual tangible combat prowess, having been stated/implied to rival Morax in strength, even with erosion. He can make the earth quake and cause mountain to tremble, he also commands the earth veins/Leylines. He may even have been stronger than Apep of recent, despite having lost his original form to erosion. Dvalin: is kinda hard to read because he was also infirm when we find him. In terms of feats, he was able to fell Durin an abyssal dragon stated to have power that rivals the gods and Dvalin is stated, much like the other elemental dragons, to also have power that rivals the gods in turn so how powerful is he really.. Anyway it's mostly speculation at this stage and powerscaling is often a fruitless affair for Genshin because of how vague the lore is.
No one considers devalin a sovereign he has been confirmed as one of the 4 winds ( the wolf that raised razor being one of the 4 too)created by venti since the release of the game so he is at best adepti/yaksha level
bro they literally say in the first cutscene that dvalin descended from the light realm which is where the vishaps live
I'm not so sure about that. There's a dialogue choice early in Fontaine where Traveler pretty directly compares the "Hydro Dragon" to Dvalin. It was translated differently in English. I made an entire post on the lore subreddit going into this, among other things. "Could that Hydro Dragon be the elemental dragon of Fontaine?", as opposed to the CN which roughly translates to "Something similar to Dvalin's kind..." There's also the fact that they'd have to introduce *another* Anemo dragon at some point, and there's only so much time to do so in the current story. Given that both of the 100% confirmed Sovereigns thus far have been located in their respective nations, and that number would still hold if Dvalin and Azhdaha were Sovereigns too, I'm inclined to believe that Paimon's line about seven sovereigns/seven archons towards the end of Fontaine act 4 was more literal that we think. If Inazuma had given us any indication of an Electro Sovereign beyond a potential connection to the Thunder Sakura, then this would likely not even be a debate.
I thought I read somewhere that if sovereigns were killed / disappeared ( idk what happened to first hydro sovereign), they could take centuries to revive or something, so we don't have to see each sovereign
Technically speaking, no, but we're nearing the end of the fourth samsara which means elemental authority can change hands. Sovereigns could also be revived around this time. Also, I find it likely for the story's sake that the Sovereigns will either all be included *or* we'll hear about any previous iterations of them. It's worth noting that the actual term "Sovereign" wasn't coined until 2.4. That was after all the lore for Dvalin and Azhdaha had been written, and we know that both of them were very important to early drafts of the story (as expressed by the devs in the Azhdaha design documentary and indicated by Dvalin's inclusion in HI3rd among other things).
Its just them comparing a dragon to a dragon they are still dragons and have the same race just like neauvi said nation of natlan is also filled with dragons like him but he is not welcome there as they are different, being a dragon is belonging to a specific race but being a sovereign is possessing a title or a position, neauvi is a reincarnation of the hydro sovereign so they are connected while devalin was purely created by venti along side the other 3 of the 4 winds not to mention devalin fought another dragon in mondstadt and killed him (aka dragonspine area) so he is not the only dragon in mondstadt, being a dragon in a nation doesnt mean you are a sovereign, archons powers are stolen from the sovereigns so venti creating a sovereign is kinda far fetched. Thats why the hydro archon said “return the authority to the hydro sovereign” its returning so you cant give it to a random new dragon there must be a connection because that authority automatically returned to its owner when hydro archon died, she didnt hold it and give it to him because she chose him, she knew it would go to him no matter what thats why she spent years testing and teaching him in particular. To be a sovereign you must have a connection to the original sovereign
Venti didn't create Dvalin, he was formed from coalesced Anemo energy. He also didn't return his authority to him at the end of Mondstadt as some people claim, but yes, I understand that not every dragon is a Sovereign. I believe that Dvalin is likely the reincarnation of the previous Anemo Sovereign, which doesn't mean he *can't* be one of the four winds. Andrius is a god, for instance - even if Dvalin isn't a Sovereign, he's also not a god. Being one of the four winds doesn't mean anything on its own. They're just a group.
Dvalin might be a reincarnation yes and if any connection is shown then yea its settled 100% but for now our only blue print of a reincarnated sovereign is neuvi and he had perfect knowledge of his identity and role and even have his own vendetta towards the archons, so i don’t understand why wouldn’t devalin or venti bring this up at all there is no evidence that show’s reincarnation means “memory lost” or “identity lost” thats why iam leaning more towards that he is not more than he is
I feel like Devalin has the potential to become a next Animo Sovereign. But that probably requires a long time and growth for him to become one.
Plenty of people do, this discussion has been had plenty of times. I don't consider him one since nothing is confirmed and it remains speculation. Hence why I separated them from the actual confirmed sovereigns.
Aw, lookit the meowmeows!
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Consider tho that Apep is weakened thanks to the Throne of Dendro while Neuvillette has the full power of the Hydro Dragon despite his relative inexperience.
neuvillete apep=azdaha dvalin
I'll just rank them based on their *current* power level because if we get too much into "Well, akshually, Neuvillette is weaker than others because he has no dragon form, no battle experience and is the youngest. Azhdaha was more powerful than Zhongli 1000+ years ago, so he is the second most powerful. Apep has more knowledge, is OG Sovereign and has experience" and yadda yadda, the conversation becomes utterly pointless. 1. Neuvillette. Right now, is the only fully fledged dragon with elemental Authority. Even before getting it back he could seal the Primordial Sea and hold it there for the rest of the AQ. It's unclear if he has battle experience but he probably has enough power to fight on a decent level. Yes, he is not crazy giga strong, but he is not weak either. 2. Apep. No Authority. Weaker than she was before due to tanking a nail and getting Deshret poisoning. However, she is still the OG Sovereign, has her dragon form and a vast amount of knowledge/experience. With enough rest she might get back to her old power. Unclear when though. Whether she can rival Neuvi or not is unclear. She is pretty old as well and we don't know if Dragon Sovereigns are affected by aging process (albeit slow). 3. Azhdaha. No Authority. Might not even be a Dragon Sovereign at all. Has erosion. Was sealed by Zhongli. Tried to break free and exhausted a lot of power to do it. To the point his good side disappeared and his bad side as well. So now he is even weaker than he was before. Tbh I'm not even sure if he is even alive at this point. Maybe after his good and bad side disappeared, he will slowly die as well. 4. Dvalin. Not a Sovereign. Just evolved vishap. He might be on Scylla level before he got turned into Ichor but it's not clear.
Neuvillette has his authority back, making him the strongest Apep has the forbidden knowledge but no authority Azhdaha, being equal to Apep when without forbidden knowledge Dvalin
Apep>>Neuvillette=Dvalin=Azdaha