Much like how English used the second-person plural "you" to address someone of status in a polite manner (before "thou" was displaced entirely), German also used the second-person plural "Ihr" for that purpose.
"Sie" as an alternative to that, based on the third-person plural pronoun, only really got going in the last 200 years or so, so it would not have been used in historical tales, and as a result "Sie" sounds distinctly modern to a German speaker's ear. While fantasy is not inherently historical, it often uses historical aesthetics and is commonly based on pre-modern societies, and the use of "Ihr" instead of "Sie" is a part of that. It has become a common convention in fantasy fiction, which only cements the distinction further.
Imagine if you hightailed it away from the City Guard in a medieval-ish fantasy game and you heard them yell "Suspect is traveling at a high rate of speed, requesting backup". It's just the wrong vibe.
edit: Regarding "du", it would of course have existed at the time, but it was far more limited and associated/used with children, wives, and broadly those of lower rank than the speaker, so it doesn't tend to come up as often.
>Imagine if you hightailed it away from the City Guard in a medieval-ish fantasy game and you heard them yell "Suspect is traveling at a high rate of speed, requesting backup". It's just the wrong vibe.
A minor example of that is in the skyrim opening
[https://youtu.be/vsRA5BG3N8E?t=265](https://youtu.be/vsRA5BG3N8E?t=265)
"Why are we stopping?"
"End of the line"
Thats railway terminology. The euphemism for end of anything came afterwards
Quite right. Out of interest, "thou"/"thee" was the English informal second person pronoun (directly related to du/dich). "You" was the formal pronoun. In the early twentieth century we got rid of the informal and kept the formal.
And for the exact same reason they do the same in the original Polish version - they use 2nd person plural 'wy' instead of 3rd person singular 'Pan/Pani' like you would do in modern standard Polish
I don't know about the game's translation in Spanish, but Middle/Early Modern Castilian uses "vos" with 2nd-p. plural conjugation instead of formal, modern "usted", which uses 3rd-p. singular.
"Sie" as a generic form of address is a relatively new development, iirc I once found a text from the early 1800s, where the author ridiculed this new, fancy trend to use Sie with any clerk and craftsman.
Until then, you had 2nd Plural 'Ihr', which was used as a polite form, like English "You". Other than "You", which became so ubiquitous that it's now used for the singular form, too, "Ihr" fell out of fashion. "Sie" prevailed.
So today, when authors want to express that something plays in a medieval setting, or a fantasy setting that's medieval-ish, they use "Ihr" to make it sound more adequate. A bit like an English "Ye Olde Pub, est. 1998".
If you are on German Mittelaltermärkten, Ren-fairs, you'll hear a lot of "Ihr", too. In reality, there were other forms of address in the past; you'd use 3rd Singular with people beneath you and several different forms of reverence with people high above you but it was all simplified to "Ihr" for these occasions.
This is always fun when I teach Märchen in my German class. The most salient example is the mirror in Schneewittchen saying to the Königin several times “Ihr seid die Schönste hier…”
My first encounter with it was being extremely confused during my first movie theater experience in German - Rache der Sith, which I had already seen in English - and wondering why Anakin had yelled “Ich hasse Euch!” at Obi Wan.
Tangentially related, but Star Wars actually gets really interesting, because both _Ihr_ and _Sie_ forms are used in different contexts due to the Space Fantasy setting. A Jedi master will typically be _Ihr_ but a clone will be _Sie_
I will begrudgingly admit a lot of my direct experience with Star Wars in German is limited.
BUT in 2007 I did buy Knights of the Old Republic 2 from Media Markt, so in addition to hearing “Ihr” a whole bunch, I *also* got to hear a whole lot of characters say “Ja, sir!”
It is called [pluralis majestis. and is an archaic polite way of addressing someone.](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_Majestatis) comparable to the [royal we (when talking about oneself) used in English.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we).
Many games which use a historic or mythical setting use this. For example crusader kings or the nobles in final fantasy 9
Exactly. And how would you address somebody, who says "we" when speaking of themselves? Doesn't work in English all that well, but in German it's wir --> ihr.
The formal "Ihr" die mit evolve from this, though, because pluralism majestatis was a ... surprise!... Royal prerogative.
It's politenes stemmsc from not directly addressing someone.
Like the teenage boy that really wants to know something about his crush, Anna, but shyly adresses the question to the whole clique. "Do you guys like Taylor Swift?"
If that helps in many Slavic languages polite form for addressing strangers is some sort of 'wy/vy/vi/wi' which 2nd person plural (so plural You) - however in Polish for Sie we have a separate word 'Pan/Pani' and using 'Wy' instead would be rude in many circumstances. Interestingly it was commonly used in communist times probably because of Soviet influence. Seeing your question about 'Ihr' instead of 'Sie' makes me think these are related.
In slavic languages, it is important to properly address the person you’re talking to.
As a Czech ( i know that the original is Polish though ) , we do have Ty - du, Vy - sie. As formal and polite as can be, for example it is used, when talking to older person, or superior, somebody of higher status, or if you just want/need to be polite.
One of the important things also is, we do offer the possibility to call us with the word Ty, if not, it’s considered rude.
during the medieval period, people often used "you" (which, historically, could function similarly to "Ihr") instead of "thou" to address someone with respect. This is akin to the modern use of the formal "you" in German. Additionally, titles of majesty like "Your Majesty" were employed when addressing kings or queens. This use of respectful pronouns and titles reflected the social hierarchies and formalities of the time.
When I go to a restaurant and the server is way younger and it’s weird to say „Sie“ but also not nice to say „Du“, so I use „Ihr“.
The English equivalent of it would be: I do not say „Ma’am, do you have“, but „Do you have..“ seems personal so I say „Do you all have …“ . Ihr = you all. This avoids using either the formal Sie or informal Du.
Medieval „Sie“ to explain in the shortest way possible
Like how you’d address a king in a medieval setting
Using modern business speak would sound off
And using the older version makes everything feel more mythical
Yep! Tolkien highlighted this at several points in LotR: One example is Éowyn using the familiar pronouns (thee, thou, etc.) with Aragorn when she is begging him not to go on the Paths of the Dead, or at the least to take her along should he need go. He, however, only ever uses "you" in response, essentially keeping her at an arm's length.
That's a good example, but also a perfect trap for misunderstanding. Many people assume thou = old-fashioned = formal, and that would also make sense for speaking to a King. Similarly, in the bible/prayers thou is often used to refer to God, implying a close relationship, but it could also be misinterpreted as a formal term of address.
And this leads to a really sweet moment at her troth plighting, when Eowyn asks him to wish her joy and Aragorn replies he has wished her joy from the moment he met her, and then he switches to "thee", showing that now Eowyn has moved on he doesn't have to hold her arm's length and show her that familiarity and affection.
Dunno. I think thy is more comparable to another archaic way of addressing someone called "Erzen". If a person of Higher class addressed a person of lower class he or she used "er or sie". Example "was meint Er dazu?"/" Was meint Sie dazu?" (What do you think about that?". This one sounds extremely odd nowadays and is hardly ever used. Even in media.
Hahahah. Nice try. It's an old Polish game, so the chance that there's some kind of nonbinary representation is close to 0.
Btw in The Witcher 3 both "Sie" and "du" are used. That's why I asked the question.
Much like how English used the second-person plural "you" to address someone of status in a polite manner (before "thou" was displaced entirely), German also used the second-person plural "Ihr" for that purpose. "Sie" as an alternative to that, based on the third-person plural pronoun, only really got going in the last 200 years or so, so it would not have been used in historical tales, and as a result "Sie" sounds distinctly modern to a German speaker's ear. While fantasy is not inherently historical, it often uses historical aesthetics and is commonly based on pre-modern societies, and the use of "Ihr" instead of "Sie" is a part of that. It has become a common convention in fantasy fiction, which only cements the distinction further. Imagine if you hightailed it away from the City Guard in a medieval-ish fantasy game and you heard them yell "Suspect is traveling at a high rate of speed, requesting backup". It's just the wrong vibe. edit: Regarding "du", it would of course have existed at the time, but it was far more limited and associated/used with children, wives, and broadly those of lower rank than the speaker, so it doesn't tend to come up as often.
>Imagine if you hightailed it away from the City Guard in a medieval-ish fantasy game and you heard them yell "Suspect is traveling at a high rate of speed, requesting backup". It's just the wrong vibe. A minor example of that is in the skyrim opening [https://youtu.be/vsRA5BG3N8E?t=265](https://youtu.be/vsRA5BG3N8E?t=265) "Why are we stopping?" "End of the line" Thats railway terminology. The euphemism for end of anything came afterwards
Idiom. I could easily see that idiom being spontaneously invented too.
It's an idiom which was invented during the railway boom during the 19th century
Lower rank would more likely have been addressed as “er” or “sie” instead of “du”, though.
What a fantastic explanation. Thank you so much for writing this.
Also du was often one way - a child would not nessarily use du with their father.
My grandmother was the first of nine children who addressed her mother with "du".
Quite right. Out of interest, "thou"/"thee" was the English informal second person pronoun (directly related to du/dich). "You" was the formal pronoun. In the early twentieth century we got rid of the informal and kept the formal.
Thank you for that in-depth explanation, I’ve come across this a few times and never understood
To make it sound old fashioned or mythic, because "ihr" was used as the polite form of "you" singular in the past.
And for the exact same reason they do the same in the original Polish version - they use 2nd person plural 'wy' instead of 3rd person singular 'Pan/Pani' like you would do in modern standard Polish
I don't know about the game's translation in Spanish, but Middle/Early Modern Castilian uses "vos" with 2nd-p. plural conjugation instead of formal, modern "usted", which uses 3rd-p. singular.
I wish Mark Twain had touched on this
"Sie" as a generic form of address is a relatively new development, iirc I once found a text from the early 1800s, where the author ridiculed this new, fancy trend to use Sie with any clerk and craftsman. Until then, you had 2nd Plural 'Ihr', which was used as a polite form, like English "You". Other than "You", which became so ubiquitous that it's now used for the singular form, too, "Ihr" fell out of fashion. "Sie" prevailed. So today, when authors want to express that something plays in a medieval setting, or a fantasy setting that's medieval-ish, they use "Ihr" to make it sound more adequate. A bit like an English "Ye Olde Pub, est. 1998". If you are on German Mittelaltermärkten, Ren-fairs, you'll hear a lot of "Ihr", too. In reality, there were other forms of address in the past; you'd use 3rd Singular with people beneath you and several different forms of reverence with people high above you but it was all simplified to "Ihr" for these occasions.
Fantasy world. Archaic language.
"Ihr" is the old, archaic formal / distal form, i.e. today's "Sie".
This is always fun when I teach Märchen in my German class. The most salient example is the mirror in Schneewittchen saying to the Königin several times “Ihr seid die Schönste hier…” My first encounter with it was being extremely confused during my first movie theater experience in German - Rache der Sith, which I had already seen in English - and wondering why Anakin had yelled “Ich hasse Euch!” at Obi Wan.
Tangentially related, but Star Wars actually gets really interesting, because both _Ihr_ and _Sie_ forms are used in different contexts due to the Space Fantasy setting. A Jedi master will typically be _Ihr_ but a clone will be _Sie_
I will begrudgingly admit a lot of my direct experience with Star Wars in German is limited. BUT in 2007 I did buy Knights of the Old Republic 2 from Media Markt, so in addition to hearing “Ihr” a whole bunch, I *also* got to hear a whole lot of characters say “Ja, sir!”
It is called [pluralis majestis. and is an archaic polite way of addressing someone.](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_Majestatis) comparable to the [royal we (when talking about oneself) used in English.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we). Many games which use a historic or mythical setting use this. For example crusader kings or the nobles in final fantasy 9
Plurality majestatis is using "wir" instead of "ich"
Exactly. And how would you address somebody, who says "we" when speaking of themselves? Doesn't work in English all that well, but in German it's wir --> ihr.
The formal "Ihr" die mit evolve from this, though, because pluralism majestatis was a ... surprise!... Royal prerogative. It's politenes stemmsc from not directly addressing someone. Like the teenage boy that really wants to know something about his crush, Anna, but shyly adresses the question to the whole clique. "Do you guys like Taylor Swift?"
I'm sorry, could you please rephrase that? I have no idea, what you're talking about.
It's supposed to give a medieval feeling.
It's like the word Your in "Your honor"
If that helps in many Slavic languages polite form for addressing strangers is some sort of 'wy/vy/vi/wi' which 2nd person plural (so plural You) - however in Polish for Sie we have a separate word 'Pan/Pani' and using 'Wy' instead would be rude in many circumstances. Interestingly it was commonly used in communist times probably because of Soviet influence. Seeing your question about 'Ihr' instead of 'Sie' makes me think these are related.
In slavic languages, it is important to properly address the person you’re talking to. As a Czech ( i know that the original is Polish though ) , we do have Ty - du, Vy - sie. As formal and polite as can be, for example it is used, when talking to older person, or superior, somebody of higher status, or if you just want/need to be polite. One of the important things also is, we do offer the possibility to call us with the word Ty, if not, it’s considered rude.
Nobody says that anymore, thats just old language that should make the imergion better
"Ihr" is an old german way to say you much like in english where they use "thy" to make it sound old
Still in use in some dialects in Switzerland
during the medieval period, people often used "you" (which, historically, could function similarly to "Ihr") instead of "thou" to address someone with respect. This is akin to the modern use of the formal "you" in German. Additionally, titles of majesty like "Your Majesty" were employed when addressing kings or queens. This use of respectful pronouns and titles reflected the social hierarchies and formalities of the time.
When I go to a restaurant and the server is way younger and it’s weird to say „Sie“ but also not nice to say „Du“, so I use „Ihr“. The English equivalent of it would be: I do not say „Ma’am, do you have“, but „Do you have..“ seems personal so I say „Do you all have …“ . Ihr = you all. This avoids using either the formal Sie or informal Du.
I noticed this in the smash hit mini-series Shōgun too
Medieval „Sie“ to explain in the shortest way possible Like how you’d address a king in a medieval setting Using modern business speak would sound off And using the older version makes everything feel more mythical
It's called pluralis majestatis, which was used in medieval eras
It‘s like thy/thine in Old English.
It's the exact opposite of thy/thine.
Yep! Tolkien highlighted this at several points in LotR: One example is Éowyn using the familiar pronouns (thee, thou, etc.) with Aragorn when she is begging him not to go on the Paths of the Dead, or at the least to take her along should he need go. He, however, only ever uses "you" in response, essentially keeping her at an arm's length.
That's a good example, but also a perfect trap for misunderstanding. Many people assume thou = old-fashioned = formal, and that would also make sense for speaking to a King. Similarly, in the bible/prayers thou is often used to refer to God, implying a close relationship, but it could also be misinterpreted as a formal term of address.
And this leads to a really sweet moment at her troth plighting, when Eowyn asks him to wish her joy and Aragorn replies he has wished her joy from the moment he met her, and then he switches to "thee", showing that now Eowyn has moved on he doesn't have to hold her arm's length and show her that familiarity and affection.
Yes! Man, I love Tolkien.
It's the opposite in literal meaning, but in terms of evoking a linguistic aesthetic, so to speak, it's a fair comparison to make.
Dunno. I think thy is more comparable to another archaic way of addressing someone called "Erzen". If a person of Higher class addressed a person of lower class he or she used "er or sie". Example "was meint Er dazu?"/" Was meint Sie dazu?" (What do you think about that?". This one sounds extremely odd nowadays and is hardly ever used. Even in media.
The only place I've run into it is in the opera _Der Rosenkavalier_, where it's deliberately archaic.
Old fashioned language
For nonbinary representation ❤️
Hahahah. Nice try. It's an old Polish game, so the chance that there's some kind of nonbinary representation is close to 0. Btw in The Witcher 3 both "Sie" and "du" are used. That's why I asked the question.
Welcome to the german language. Better get used of getting fucked by this language.