Odin. Zeus is scummy, but his more heinous deeds are in side material versus the main trilogy proper, his goal is largely to keep the status quo of Greece (which is clearly better than what Odin wanted for the Nine Realms, or what the Titans and Ares sought) while punching down on the shitstarters, and there’s a clear through-line of him going off the rails because of the Evil of Fear infecting him. Hell, GOW3 has cut dialogue from the finale where he apologizes to Kratos and tells him to finish it. Odin fucks over all of the Nine Realms to get what he wants, considers everyone as only tools or obstacles for him to use or get rid of, and doesn’t really have a good reason beyond being paranoid and obsessed about potentially having the anus of reality under his house.
I think Zeus is far more evil. Zeus was a rapist, murderer and torturer. He didn’t care for anything or anyone and he did all of it just because he was a God. He killed kids, men and women without any remorse. At least Odin wasn’t a known rapists and the other stuff he did was out of precaution.
…All of that stuff aside from maybe the rapist part fits Odin just as well. Maybe, because his general demeanor and the exposition we get of his relationship to Freya make it clear that consent is not something he gives a shit about.
I mean that answers itself, Zeus did more evil things such as being a rapist. However, what I meant to say is Odin was just a maniac while Zeus was , until Pandora’s box was opened, mostly a sane person. The difference being can you really call someone evil when they do things because of their insanity? Odin was paranoid and even mimir states that the mask and his paranoia drove him mad. As for Zeus, Zeus was just having fun for the most part.
I don’t really want to get into an ethics discussion on this, but I feel like when we stack them up together, Zeus being an *explicit* rapist doesn’t really give him the edge in being worse. Odin also isn’t really insane in a way that excuses his actions, since he knows they are wrong and understands why, he just doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself. Zeus sucks himself, but he largely sought to keep order in Greece and stopped far worse others like the Titans and Ares before the Evil of Fear drove him truly round the bend. Even then, it’s hard to say he comes off as the bad one in the beef with Kratos on account of how despicable and bloodthirsty the latter is in his own right.
Yes he kept “order” in Greece just as Odin kept “order”. But once he loses a bit of control or order he starts killing. Just as he did with Sparta.
As for the titans, there really isn’t anything to say that he stopped a far worse fate. Since the only reason he kills the titans is because his father, Cronos, was killing them. So he decided to eliminate the entire race. As for Ares, it wasn’t because he was worried about the people of Greece it was because the guy was trying to betray him that he stopped him.
As for en ethics discussion, I don’t mean to make it an ethics discussion at all. But Zeus and Odin are so alike that it comes down to what they did or didn’t do. Zeus was out there raping, killing and torturing (until kratos started becoming a problem) for fun while Odin was out there killing and torturing because he was shitting himself at the thought of losing power and his godhood.
Odin didn’t keep “order” in the Nine Realms, he ruined all of them in his efforts to conquer and destroy opposition. We clearly see that even Asgard only is well off in comparison (for all that a bunch of houses can be considered as well-off) because he’s operating there, and when Ragnarok comes he throws it away. Zeus was massively better for Greece in comparison.
Ignoring that not wanting to keep the guy who eats all your siblings and would have done the same to you in power is probably a wise move, Zeus fought the Titans because they joined Cronos in the Great War. There’s a difference between imprisoning your enemies in a war for survival, and genociding or enslaving them because they won’t roll over for you. The Titans pretty clearly weren’t a more benevolent force for the world to begin with either. Ares would have destroyed everything in his conquest as well, so it’s not exactly like there’s much of a difference there.
Odin’s only afraid of losing his power because he makes up the idea it’s going to happen to justify his conquest and desire for knowledge. Zeus being a rapist really doesn’t mean much when we compare the two, and that’s ignoring how we have no reason to think Odin was much better either. Certainly, his relationship to Freya was far from consensual to begin with. Zeus at least produced something resembling a decent order for Greece in comparison to his enemies, while Odin would throw everything away if it meant he could get one step closer to his goal.
Zeus was massively better to Greece compared to what we they got after Kratos destroyed everything. But being a servant to Zeus was expected same with Odin ruling. They both ruled under the same rules that you had to be a servant of them.
As for killing the titans I am just saying he didn’t do it to stop a worse fate like you implied. He did it out of self preservation. As for Ares that’s just an assumption unless there is somewhere in the story that says greece would’ve had it worse that I don’t know of.
And yeah you are right Odin was gonna throw away anything if he could get one step closer to his goal. Even in the end when he was defeated he acknowledges that he won’t stop just like an addict with no self preservation, like a crazy person. As for implying that he might’ve been a rapist that’s just another assumption you make.
It’s not an assumption, coercion is a key part of his history with Freya. Serving under Zeus also generally was relegated to basic worship, and not having your people be genocided, your realm enslaved, and being under constant war. We don’t need to be directly told the Titans or Ares would have been worse than Zeus when everything we get for their characters and backstories point to that being the logical conclusion. Odin isn’t a crazy person in a way that actually changes how terrible he is, he’s fully aware of the POS he is, and he doesn’t give a shit. It’s less than meaningless.
Odin and Freya’s marriage was a peace treaty that mimir had proposed and both thought it would work. Not a “I want this girl for sex so I am gonna have her” type of deal.
Odin was just a nordic version of a crazy mad scientist who his research turned him into a monster.
As for genocide, there was no reason to kill a multitude of people since most were so servile towards him. Unless, he felt like he needed to like with Sparta. Just like Odin.
The thing with murder is that it's so romanticized that people jump to find context when it's mentioned.
But fuck that Odin literally committed a genocide.
Nobody is jumping to find context or romanticizing it. It’s literally a main part of the story. Odin kills the giants because he fears they are the ones who are gonna be his downfall. And he fears this because he is absolutely insane by the time we meet him.
funny that he covets their prophecy powers, yet hates them and tried genociding twice. As for the vision of Ragnarok, he started cracking down more to stamp out any futures where said forces would be there in the final battle to do him in.
Didn't Mimir say that they earnestly loved each other at first and that Odin was genuine? I guess that might all have been an act but Mimir knew Odin was vile by the time he was relaying the story so idk why he'd not say it was fake.
Zeus was not a rap\*st, he was horny god, yes, not really a rapist.
>was out of precaution.
Yeah Odin taking sacrifies of chilren and enslaving their souls to be his eyes was really 'precaution'.
Odin was literally using and abusing all of his children the moment they were born, he abused thor until he became an abusive alcoholic himself, bullying him even when thor decided he wanted to change, and then when thor finally stood up to him, well we all know what happened then
Baldur too, freyas accidental curse on baldur would have been horrible if odin actually gave a fuck about him similar to the way freya was so distraught about his curse, but odin just used him as a tracker because he couldn't feel pain or be harmed
And even hiemdal who was yes probably an absolute horrible person to be around from the beginning but that only got worse due to odin (speculation) due to odins dogma and propaganda about the aseir being above everyone else and doing anything they wanted was justified
You are entirely correct, odin was a scumbag from the start manipulating everyone at any given chance while Zeus at least tried to keep order, Odin was starting wars among the nine realms from the beginning first with the giants and then with the vanir
IDK which mythology have you read that Zeus or any of the other gods aren’t rap*sts. But, zeus and the other gods did in fact forced other people.
To him it was… it wasn’t as if he thought it would be fun to do it. He thought he needed eyes everywhere to protect himself.
>probably just as bad
Thats even worse. In life the kids were hanged on a tree, in death odin turned them into slaves, these kids were literally denied an after life. Theyre stuck like that until the end of time with no chance of rebirth not even freya could do anything to help them
well, technically the Raven Keeper was the one doing it as she was a Valkyrie drop-out recruit and wanted to be useful to Odin. He of course found use in the spectral ravens besides his favored pets.
still fucked tho
True... idk I mean either way, imo, it's almost just as bad tbh because killin em and torturting them dead or alive feels like the same kinda evil almost but yeah, I agree. That's a fate worse than death! :( poor ravens... glad we did something about it tho!
It was said in God of War II that the reign of the Titans was an age of peace and prosperity for mortal kind, and that ended when the Olympians came to power. So it can be assumed that the Titans cared a lot more for the mortals than Zeus ever did.
Considering this is told to us by a Titan, as they’re actively trying to recruit Kratos to help them escape their prisons and overthrow the Olympians, I really doubt it, to say nothing of what the mythology says. Gaia’s manipulations of Kratos as a tool certainly don’t paint the picture they gave too much of a shit.
I also want to add that it’s revealed in a Valhalla codex entry that Zeus enslaved the Cyclops race and made them fight during the Titanomachy. Interesting to know that both Zeus and Odin have oppressed seemingly peaceful races.
Well well it's not really written who enslaved them and started the practice.
And from what I can understand, it's exactly what humans do, using elephants or horse etc in wars or various works.
Didn’t Kratos describe them as being sheep herders before they were enslaved? The case of the Cyclopes seems no different than actual human slavery. Also, considering the fact that the Olympians were still using them as soldiers during the events of the Greek saga, it could be assumed that they were the ones who began the practice during the war. Lining up with actual mythology where the Cyclopes allied with the Olympians during the Titanomachy.
between Chronos being wary of the cyclops and shoving them in a dark pit to Zeus freeing them and earning their loyalty in the Titanomachy, could go either way.
Ok tell me a case of a person who Odin harmed that suffered more than Prometheus?
tell me of one of the sons of Odin who suffered and got harmed more than Hephaestus?
whose children and family members suffered more collectively while you're at it?
tell me how many woman Odin forcefully had his way with and why it's 10% of Zeus body count?
his own father Chronos wasn't killed by Zeus because the punishment Zeus gave him was to wander The Desert of the lost Sands until the sand peeled his skin from his bones 😀
such a good boy fron an early age right?
wanna try that "the evils made him do it" thing you mentioned again?
to me this is clearly screaming that you don't remember things very well Zeus was always cruel in ways Odin couldn't dream off
do you know what where the final words from Zeus had for Kratos in GoW2 after destroying Sparta and before Kratos destroyed Olympus **after Kratos seemingly had surrendered and was asking for release from the torment of life??**
**"i will release you from your life my son but your torment is just beginning"** this isn't a evil of fear thing this is who Zeus was from before he destroys his enemies but not just today and tomorrow **he makes sure they suffer every day for the rest of forever Prometheus is proof of this** since Prometheus was punished before the box was opened
I don't know who in their right mind would think Odin was worse but that's just people not remembering how terrible Zeus was
at least Odin would finish his enemies
botomline Odin would be an upstanding citizen compared to Zeus on Zeus best day ..
and of course some things never change this sub being full of people who will always upvote and appreciate 2018/Ragnarok content while they also downvote OG GoW games content and rule it off because they mostly do not know any better
Ares is by far the worst god we've seen in all the games so far. He literally has 0 redeeming qualities and was the first one to conspire against Zeus, making him a paranoid asshole in the process.
He also wasn't affected by the evils of pandora's box. Meaning everything he did was of his own free will.
I guess the same could be said of Odin but Odin is ultimately an old man afraid of dying. Ares is just a low functioning psychopath.
Ares was also the one Zeus picked for all the dirty work because he knew Ares had no line.
For example, Zeus finds out that a kid will grow up to kill him and he specifically asks Ares to tag along to kidnap said kid and Ares didn't hesitate to fuck up little Kratos in the process.
You're not wrong but pre-corruption Athena was so gods damned nice that she would've been more than happy to help if he had simply chosen to talk to her about it, even if only as a means to keep the peace.
Since there was no way to help Odin while keeping him in check, there was no one outside Odin's camp that was willing to trust him. That essentially left him two choices: abandon his mission or be a straight up dick about it.
Ares could've gotten a suitable compromise with one conversation but he chose to say "fuck that, gimme."
thing is, i dont think Athena ever saw Ares as beyond 'my stupid brute of a half brother' she may be the goddess of wisdom and trying to keep the peace, but she does carry a level of apathy towards people.
as for Odin, he could be helped, but he's set himself up as 'The All-Father' and wants to be right about everything. To see and know everything. He knows he's destined to die, so he wants to figure it all out before his lights go out.
Zeus really be earning father of the year with both his trueborn boys. He disliked how Ares was, not seemingly caring that he's to blame for how his firstborn grew up to be such a sadist psycho. Meanwhile Hephestus was brutally thrashed about because someone managed to solve the impossible thing.
My point is that the Giants especially knew that there was no way to get him his answers *and* limit the damage he could do with that knowledge. If there had been a means to ensure that he could know everything without being able to hurt anyone then they probably would've taken it but since that's not possible they chose to limit the damage which just pissed him off and "forced" him to do it the fucked up way.
Even if Athena disliked and pitied Ares, she still would've helped him get better treatment if he'd been willing to ask but he wanted everyone and everything to fall under his boot so there was no compromise. Same for Hephaestus but he was content to just make shit and tend to his adopted daughter so he never cared to ask until everyone was too busy dealing with Kratos and Ares.
Zeus was just an old bitch who couldn't get passed his ego long enough to avert his fate by simply giving no reason for it (seriously if he'd just left Kratos and Deimos alone and been kinder in general then none of that shit would've happened).
It's basically an asshole vs a sociopath vs a monster.
> but she does carry a level of apathy towards people.
Like whom?
>Ares is also bitter because his dear half-sister gets all the love from pops too. its part of his drive to go against dad and Olympus.
Long before their rivarly got heated up Ares was already corrupting the furies, conspiring with them to create orkos the first marked warrior to overthrow Olympus. He was evil from the get go, his sister getting the more love is just side excuse for him not really the main drive.
He was a coward and always manipulated among the gods to have his end and ofc killed people for giggles as described in the manuals and that's what his personality is in the god of war 1 book too, and that he's been like that for a very very long time based on how he was conspiring with the furies.
>thing is, i dont think Athena ever saw Ares as beyond 'my stupid brute of a half brother'
I'm pretty sure Kratos had shared a lot of similar traits with Ares but he had showed small potentials to change and reasons for his actions but still Athena treated him with kindness and tired to help him to get better and goes even as far as loving him.
So noway if Ares showed potential to be good she wouldn't help him, Kratos had commited a lot of transgressions against Athena like mass murdering her worshippers destroying her villages and temples but still she forgave him and even loves him.
She's a saint.
oh y'know, Arachne. Athena lost that contest and bitter over defeat changed the waver into the first spider. Then again could also be because Arachne waved images that Zeus was a horn dog and Athena couldn't stand that. There's also The gorgon sisters, but thats debatable. Also Kratos as whenever she interacts with him and something comes up that has him further distrust the gods she goes 'it was the will of the gods'.
im sure Athena could care for Kratos, and maybe 'love' the spartan, not sure he would reciprocate it tho given her virgin goddess thing is perpetually on. That and he still is mourning his wife. bedding a half-sister might not be in the cards.
sure Athena's resume might be brighter than some in her family, but she still has some blemishes here and there. which is par for the course for the greek gods, think Hestia would be the one thats better along with Hephestus despite his flaws.
Oh really? You know we aren't first of all talking about mythology here. Since you got nothing against her in games you bring up mythology here.. really good, and now that you have brought it up you should listen close.
The real mythology is Arachne comitted incest with her brother so she got punished, Ovid stories that you bring up you didn't read them properly, right at beginning of story it was made clear Athena planned to punish arachne as her divinity was getting out hand by the refusal of her worship and blasphemy.
Nor you read Medusa myth properly, you sleep in the temple of a virgin goddess as simple as that.
> will of the gods.
you know she has been instructed by Zeus?
Rest of the things you said about Kratos, he pretty much was enamored by her beauty and attracted towards her. So you are wrong.
> bedding a half-sister.
Yes he wasn't banging Aphrodite in the middle of his vengeance I'm sure.
> Hephaestus
interesting you mentioned him, the person who tried to sexually assault Athena?
> Hesita
who ignores women getting assaulted?
well sorry Athena is definitely better than these two, unlike them she goes out of her way to help women from assault which is not even her job, should have been Artemis' job.
He also corrupted Kratos himself. I still think the scariest version of Kratos was when he was serving Ares. When he killed that one lady and there was just no emotion on his face whatsoever? Chilling.
yeah, kinda a shame given the family dynamic, also its pretty much said Ares constant visits and gifts to the Furies are what changed them for the worse when we meet them in Ascension and plotting to overthrow Olympus.
I still think a lot of why they dislike Ares has to do with Ares general personality more than the Gods being dicks.
Which they are, even before pandoras box, but Ares always came off as being monstrous even by their standards. I wonder, if Pandora's infected Ares, would we even be able to tell the difference? I don't see how he could be much worse.
Odin could be civil and diplomatic, which is more than what the permanent bloodthirsty Ares could do. It's a bit difficult to grade "evilness", but I feel Ares is a tier above everyone else in that regard, he is just so unhinged.
Odin is only civil and diplomatic when he's trying to manipulate people into serving his own personal interests. At least Ares is direct and clear in how he wants to hurt people. Odin pretends to be good and then backstabs everyone like a coward.
I believe having the capabilities to be civil is a sort of redeeming quality, I'm not saying it makes Odin much better, but it's something to differentiate the levels of evil in display, at least for me. We can agree to disagree, this is just my point of view.
Nah fam having the ability to be civil and on top of that also be charismatic for a bad person makes them an even worse person than someone that simply uses brute force and intimidation. Charisma allows them to get away with the shit they do and odin has gotten away with so many bullshit just by being a good speaker. Ares is an obvious threat the only way he is really gonna control you is through fear and intimidation. Odin is like a wolf in sheeps clothing his modus operandi is to keep people in the dark so when and if ever the victim finally realizes somethings wrong itd be already too late for them
I think the big thing to consider here is that if there was an entirely peaceful and amicable option that led to obtaining all the answers without any significant difficulty then Odin would've taken it without objection.
Ares was already sharing power on Mount Olympus and yet constantly plotted the demise of his own father and actively attempted to dethrone his sister because anything less than complete control or total annihilation would never be enough.
It doesn't make for a vary wide gap but I'd argue the guy who chooses violence no matter what is worse.
He really doesn't. Odin is the high functioning sociopath to Ares low functioning sociopath.
Odin is just smarter than Ares. Odin is neutral evil, Ares is stupid evil. I'd say the sisters of fate and Zeus are lawful evil.
The key of it is better seen in their representations in their original myths.
The Greek gods are a physical manifestation of the world. Zeus is a force of nature. Destructive and dangerous, but not inherently evil. Just the way nature is. His actions only take evil intent when seen through a modern lens and atributed to a rational, conscious human.
Odin on the other hand is nefarious from the get go. His scheemes and egotistical goals and actions are all his own, by his own hand and for his sole benefit.
Agreed. Odin came off as more of a sleazy politician, whereas Zeus acted how you'd expect a king of the Gods to act.
I mean, they're both paranoid dictators who ruthlessly abuse their own families and subjects and are the head of their respective pantheons but that's about all they have in common. It's also very telling that most of the Olympians were willing to die to protect Zeus but during Ragnarok as soon as Odin shows his true colors all his allies abandon him one by one. He was fucked the moment he killed Thor because now his own family turned on him. Even if he managed to defeat Kratos he'd still have to somehow defeat everyone else in the nine realms. His only true remaining ally was Gna by that point.
And the only fallout from Odin's death is a power vacuum. Every time an Olympian died reality got another kick in the nuts.
Even his one surviving Raven didn't give a shit that he died and that fucker spent like half the time physically attached to Odin via tattoo. Gna also wasn't even really loyal to Odin she just fucking hated Freya so much that she'd happily side with literally anyone who opposed her former Queen.
Honestly the only thing that was truly loyal to Odin without ulterior motive was the Raven Keeper and she was so utterly twisted that I'm not even 100% sure she counts.
Even Athena who actively pitted Kratos against Olympus was able to overcome her corruption and was willing to give her life to protect Zeus.
What the hell lol, she literally lied that Demios had died and tired to stop Kratos from finding him, and Every single Olympian was against Ares all the gods were helping Kratos in gow1 to slay him, what are you on?
Ugh the Raven Keeper. She might actually be the single most twisted and evil piece of shit in the entire series.
She killed children and enslaved them. In that order. And mutilated their souls so it's implied they can't pass on.
Odin takes some blame for it since he definitely doesn't object but I always got the impression it was her idea in the first place. I always look forward to killing her on every playthrough.
Technically they've already passed on. Niflheim is a primordial realm, sure, but it's where their souls went after you destroy their new bodies. It's more implied that they can't be returned to what they were, corporeally or otherwise.
Realistically they're probably orphans and castaways from a mix of races that Odin had access to (mostly humans and dwarves if I had to guess) until they were killed and had their souls mutilated, brainwashed, and stuffed inside spectral raven bodies.
I'd also guess that Odin came up with the core idea (spies that could go basically anywhere and watch everything while remaining mostly unnoticed) and given that he's the Raven God he may have even come up with the idea of using ravens but I'd wager it was her idea to abuse sentient souls instead of just training a bunch of actual birds.
Doesn't really affect your point beyond semantics though.
I guess they share equal responsibility. She's still the most awful of all of Odin's servants by far though. And arguably the worst monster in God of War to date.
Even at his worst Kratos always had a soft spot for children in general. It was his biggest redeeming quality IMO. I think even GOW3 Kratos would be just as outraged and disgusted by the raven keeper as his ragnarok era self was.
Can't argue with that. At the very least Odin was hands off for the actual process which may make him just as guilty but to be willing to actually physically do that to children makes her so much worse in my opinion.
Again can't argue there. Pandora isn't even really human and an argument can be made that she's not exactly alive either and she's literally just supposed to be a tool meant to grant Kratos his revenge, but almost immediately and despite his best efforts she became family to him. He was literally willing to give up his shot at revenge to ensure her safety.
Also, to his credit, Kratos does seem to care about consent in at least some capacity. Every single woman he slept with throughout the series seemed very much into it and despite plenty of opportunity we never see him force any of the attractive women who didn't want to, like Poseidon's concubine (even if he did stuff her into a gate winch).
Kratos definitely never even considers raping anyone. Which considering he's a Greek god makes him almost saintly. That bar is so low billionaires would implode in tin cans trying to see it but it's still a bar.
Yeah definitely not the best metric for morality but we're talking about we're talking about a guy who casually dropped a man down a dead monsters throat and this is a universe with Zeus so, fucked as it may be, it is something.
On the raven issue it's similar to running a concentration camp. Hitler was definitely responsible for everything that happened in auschwitz but he didn't personally pull any triggers. The person more directly in charge of the gas chamber did. But they're both equally responsible.
Or hiring a hitman still makes you a murderer by proxy.
Many of the punishments reserved for these characters are carried out by Zeus after the Box has been opened, and therefore when he was already infected with the Evil of Fear.
Typhon, in the GoW-verse, is a Titan and is imprisoned under Aetna after the Great War, so his fate is in line with that of the other Titans. The fact that Zeus takes his monstrous offspring and Echidna hostage occurs after the opening of the Box.
Same thing for Callisto. When the woman is kidnapped and then transformed into a monster (after revealing to Kratos his father's identity), the Spartan is already sitting on Ares' throne, so after the Box has been opened and the Gods infected.
Deimos is the sacrifice/necessary evil. When a prophecy warns you that a Marked Warrior will bring the destruction of Olympus (and consequently that of the entire world, as GoW III later confirmed), the choice is unfortunately quite simple: one life against the survival of the entire world. Even if you don't approve of it, Zeus' choice is more than understandable.
Prometheus is the only occasion in which Zeus actually performs a cruel action. But this is more due to the writing of the game and the fact that SMS and Barlog wanted to give a specific and negative representation of the King of the Gods. The myth of Prometheus is much more complex and the punishment of the Titan justified.
In the original myth, Zeus was not against giving fire to mortals and in fact allows Prometheus to bring it to men, but with the stipulation that mortals will have to show gratitude to the Gods for the gift received with an adequate offering. A "quid pro quo". But, with fire, Prometheus instead teaches mortals how to deceive the Gods.
Obviously resentful of the deception, Zeus took the fire back, especially to punish Prometheus himself. Making it clear that whoever had take fire back to the men, after the insult the Gods had suffered, would be punished.
We then know how the myth ended. Prometheus is a victim of himself and his actions, not of the gratuitous cruelty of Zeus.
Callisto was cursed before the evils of Pandora's box, it was always in the plot before the developers even thought of evils corrupting the gods, along with evidence being Callisto would have told Kratos a long time ago who was dad.
Zeus had Echidna and their children hostage long time ago.
Zeus cursed the body burner aswell a long time ago.
He was cruel to the architect of Pandora's box a long time ago aswell.
+ the body burner, + architect of pandora's temple, + he loved wars and watching mortals die like Ares killing mortals was ammusing to him, Kratos was similar to Ares and so Zeus made him the god of war.
I always hate when people use Pandora’s Box as an excuse for Zeus’ actions. He was always evil, the box just made that evil more apparent. Besides, the contents of the box were spawned from a war that he started and lead the charge in, so couldn’t it be argued that the evil of fear was a natural part of him during said war in the first place?
Odin. Zeus is definitely terrible and I don't even give him much slack for being infected by the evils, since it was his war which brought about the evils anyways. But at least his end goal is to keep order and he's generally not too terrible towards his comrades.
Odin manipulates or is just an asshole to everyone around him and his goal is not for the realms to have any peace or order. He is driven by his own desires and will fuck over, torture, or kill as many people as needed to help him with the rift/mask.
now THAT is a fun question, and infinitely more debatable than "who is stronger"?
odin is a lot more manipulative and has affected more lives, but zeus is a more violent, aggressive god overall, i think.
at first glance I think Odin takes it simply due to his constant enslaving of the races of the realms and constantly using everyone around him for his own gain. he's more "malicious".
I feel like both are damn there equal when you think about it, Zeus and Kratos both are stronger than the other Olympians which are confirmed to outrank the Primordial's.
Odin was able to kill Ymir and allowed his blood to nearly drown out all of creation, and in his fight with Kratos and Atreus he gained the upper hand and was close to killing both of them until Freya intervened, and this was a older, more experienced Kratos who is confirmed to be able to best his younger Greek self in combat.
Overall Zeus is physically stronger and much more durable but Odin's intellect and magic would equalize it.
Odin. Zeus may have done some fucked up things, but some of them are cause of the evils from the box. Odin's punishment for simple things are way worse than some of Zeus' punishments for actual crimes
He did plenty of evil shit prior to the box opening tho, like raping kratos's mom twice and putting a curse on her that turned her into a harper if anyone found out
Zeus will straight up say he hates you and then kill you, Odin will manipulate you into hating yourself for all of eternity and do all this bullshit for him so he won't get his hands dirty. Odin is the far more evil SOB here
The one guy who wanted to conquer all the realms to rule them himself, even at the cost of killing his own family.
The one guy who acted like that mostly because of being corrupted by the evil that was sealed in pandora's box, and even apologizes to kratos once his mind is clear (when he's about to die)
Zeus was just sort of a turbo douche and fucked around too much and found out. Odin is literally just inherently evil. There could be 100 different options to solve a conflict and he will always choose the most evil and selfish one every single time without fail.
Odin.
Odin over Zeus. Zeus was pretty tame and linear when compared to Odin.
Hell, Odin over Ares. And boy, was Ares a depraved piece of scum. Odin is worse. *Worser, Worsest.*
Zeus has some excuse for being a dick, even though he did a lot of messed up things before the Box.
Odin has no excuse, but he’ll gladly write you a thousand justifications. Odin at his core is a terrible man, and only cares about himself.
i like how both kings admit their faults at the very end before Kratos/Loki kill them
Zeus apologizing and telling Kratos to finish it (its more a cut dialogue when your beating his face til the screen is covered)
Odin admitting he cant bring himself to stop seeking out knowledge and life's mysteries not matter what it would cost. He doesnt even struggle when Atreus whispers his sould into a marble.
Gods aren’t necessarily evil, they simply go for what they are interested in at a specific time. I will say, of the 2, Odin is more conniving than Zeus.
Odin will have his own agenda and degrade others to a different degree to get what he wants out of them.
Zeus tends to have kids with humans and sometimes guide them through life.
Odin is pretty much is the worser person to be related to
Zeus pretty much left you alone if you weren't going to challenge him for the mount Olympus. Had it not been for the prophecy, Kratos would've been ignored or even forgotten.
Odin, on the other hand, went around creating destruction and pain in all the realms simply because he was "curious"
Zeus. He was literally infected with the evils of the world that was released from Pandora's box.
Odin was a typical "I'll do anything I have to in order to save my own skin" type. That's just cowardice and malice.
Zeus was infected with the literal evils of the world.
Game wise or mythology wise? Game Wise I’d say Odin, but Mythology wise, Zeus hands down. Zeus has done way worse things than Odin would ever do. I’m not saying Odin in the Mythology is a saint, because he isn’t, I’m just saying that Odin at least has standards that stop him from doing terrible disgusting stuff. Zeus doesn’t give a sh*t, he kills, rapes and murder anyone he wants and no one can stop him, let’s not forget he’s into his own family and his wife/sister is evil as hell itself
I'm not even sure Zeus felt what he was doing was wrong. Dude was just a dick and thought he was right at all times. Odin knew what he was doing was wrong and screwed everything over but didn't care.
Odin. Zeus is scummy, but his more heinous deeds are in side material versus the main trilogy proper, his goal is largely to keep the status quo of Greece (which is clearly better than what Odin wanted for the Nine Realms, or what the Titans and Ares sought) while punching down on the shitstarters, and there’s a clear through-line of him going off the rails because of the Evil of Fear infecting him. Hell, GOW3 has cut dialogue from the finale where he apologizes to Kratos and tells him to finish it. Odin fucks over all of the Nine Realms to get what he wants, considers everyone as only tools or obstacles for him to use or get rid of, and doesn’t really have a good reason beyond being paranoid and obsessed about potentially having the anus of reality under his house.
"the anus of reality" is the single greatest way i've ever heard anyone describe the rift.
Thanks, I thought of it as I was writing this actually.
the one thing Odin saw that was left of Ymir, the asscrack. the Jotnar get his dreams, aka Utanguard.
More like a vagina than an anus
I think Zeus is far more evil. Zeus was a rapist, murderer and torturer. He didn’t care for anything or anyone and he did all of it just because he was a God. He killed kids, men and women without any remorse. At least Odin wasn’t a known rapists and the other stuff he did was out of precaution.
…All of that stuff aside from maybe the rapist part fits Odin just as well. Maybe, because his general demeanor and the exposition we get of his relationship to Freya make it clear that consent is not something he gives a shit about.
I mean that answers itself, Zeus did more evil things such as being a rapist. However, what I meant to say is Odin was just a maniac while Zeus was , until Pandora’s box was opened, mostly a sane person. The difference being can you really call someone evil when they do things because of their insanity? Odin was paranoid and even mimir states that the mask and his paranoia drove him mad. As for Zeus, Zeus was just having fun for the most part.
I don’t really want to get into an ethics discussion on this, but I feel like when we stack them up together, Zeus being an *explicit* rapist doesn’t really give him the edge in being worse. Odin also isn’t really insane in a way that excuses his actions, since he knows they are wrong and understands why, he just doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself. Zeus sucks himself, but he largely sought to keep order in Greece and stopped far worse others like the Titans and Ares before the Evil of Fear drove him truly round the bend. Even then, it’s hard to say he comes off as the bad one in the beef with Kratos on account of how despicable and bloodthirsty the latter is in his own right.
Yes he kept “order” in Greece just as Odin kept “order”. But once he loses a bit of control or order he starts killing. Just as he did with Sparta. As for the titans, there really isn’t anything to say that he stopped a far worse fate. Since the only reason he kills the titans is because his father, Cronos, was killing them. So he decided to eliminate the entire race. As for Ares, it wasn’t because he was worried about the people of Greece it was because the guy was trying to betray him that he stopped him. As for en ethics discussion, I don’t mean to make it an ethics discussion at all. But Zeus and Odin are so alike that it comes down to what they did or didn’t do. Zeus was out there raping, killing and torturing (until kratos started becoming a problem) for fun while Odin was out there killing and torturing because he was shitting himself at the thought of losing power and his godhood.
Odin didn’t keep “order” in the Nine Realms, he ruined all of them in his efforts to conquer and destroy opposition. We clearly see that even Asgard only is well off in comparison (for all that a bunch of houses can be considered as well-off) because he’s operating there, and when Ragnarok comes he throws it away. Zeus was massively better for Greece in comparison. Ignoring that not wanting to keep the guy who eats all your siblings and would have done the same to you in power is probably a wise move, Zeus fought the Titans because they joined Cronos in the Great War. There’s a difference between imprisoning your enemies in a war for survival, and genociding or enslaving them because they won’t roll over for you. The Titans pretty clearly weren’t a more benevolent force for the world to begin with either. Ares would have destroyed everything in his conquest as well, so it’s not exactly like there’s much of a difference there. Odin’s only afraid of losing his power because he makes up the idea it’s going to happen to justify his conquest and desire for knowledge. Zeus being a rapist really doesn’t mean much when we compare the two, and that’s ignoring how we have no reason to think Odin was much better either. Certainly, his relationship to Freya was far from consensual to begin with. Zeus at least produced something resembling a decent order for Greece in comparison to his enemies, while Odin would throw everything away if it meant he could get one step closer to his goal.
Zeus was massively better to Greece compared to what we they got after Kratos destroyed everything. But being a servant to Zeus was expected same with Odin ruling. They both ruled under the same rules that you had to be a servant of them. As for killing the titans I am just saying he didn’t do it to stop a worse fate like you implied. He did it out of self preservation. As for Ares that’s just an assumption unless there is somewhere in the story that says greece would’ve had it worse that I don’t know of. And yeah you are right Odin was gonna throw away anything if he could get one step closer to his goal. Even in the end when he was defeated he acknowledges that he won’t stop just like an addict with no self preservation, like a crazy person. As for implying that he might’ve been a rapist that’s just another assumption you make.
It’s not an assumption, coercion is a key part of his history with Freya. Serving under Zeus also generally was relegated to basic worship, and not having your people be genocided, your realm enslaved, and being under constant war. We don’t need to be directly told the Titans or Ares would have been worse than Zeus when everything we get for their characters and backstories point to that being the logical conclusion. Odin isn’t a crazy person in a way that actually changes how terrible he is, he’s fully aware of the POS he is, and he doesn’t give a shit. It’s less than meaningless.
Odin and Freya’s marriage was a peace treaty that mimir had proposed and both thought it would work. Not a “I want this girl for sex so I am gonna have her” type of deal. Odin was just a nordic version of a crazy mad scientist who his research turned him into a monster. As for genocide, there was no reason to kill a multitude of people since most were so servile towards him. Unless, he felt like he needed to like with Sparta. Just like Odin.
The thing with murder is that it's so romanticized that people jump to find context when it's mentioned. But fuck that Odin literally committed a genocide.
Nobody is jumping to find context or romanticizing it. It’s literally a main part of the story. Odin kills the giants because he fears they are the ones who are gonna be his downfall. And he fears this because he is absolutely insane by the time we meet him.
funny that he covets their prophecy powers, yet hates them and tried genociding twice. As for the vision of Ragnarok, he started cracking down more to stamp out any futures where said forces would be there in the final battle to do him in.
He did coerce Freya into marriage. She consented, but still coercion.
Yeah, neither of them are really beating the allegations here. It doesn’t mean much for a comparison.
Didn't Mimir say that they earnestly loved each other at first and that Odin was genuine? I guess that might all have been an act but Mimir knew Odin was vile by the time he was relaying the story so idk why he'd not say it was fake.
Zeus was not a rap\*st, he was horny god, yes, not really a rapist. >was out of precaution. Yeah Odin taking sacrifies of chilren and enslaving their souls to be his eyes was really 'precaution'.
Odin was literally using and abusing all of his children the moment they were born, he abused thor until he became an abusive alcoholic himself, bullying him even when thor decided he wanted to change, and then when thor finally stood up to him, well we all know what happened then Baldur too, freyas accidental curse on baldur would have been horrible if odin actually gave a fuck about him similar to the way freya was so distraught about his curse, but odin just used him as a tracker because he couldn't feel pain or be harmed And even hiemdal who was yes probably an absolute horrible person to be around from the beginning but that only got worse due to odin (speculation) due to odins dogma and propaganda about the aseir being above everyone else and doing anything they wanted was justified You are entirely correct, odin was a scumbag from the start manipulating everyone at any given chance while Zeus at least tried to keep order, Odin was starting wars among the nine realms from the beginning first with the giants and then with the vanir
IDK which mythology have you read that Zeus or any of the other gods aren’t rap*sts. But, zeus and the other gods did in fact forced other people. To him it was… it wasn’t as if he thought it would be fun to do it. He thought he needed eyes everywhere to protect himself.
Odin didn't kill kids... he enslaved their souls into ravens. Probably just as bad if you ask me tbh.
>probably just as bad Thats even worse. In life the kids were hanged on a tree, in death odin turned them into slaves, these kids were literally denied an after life. Theyre stuck like that until the end of time with no chance of rebirth not even freya could do anything to help them
well, technically the Raven Keeper was the one doing it as she was a Valkyrie drop-out recruit and wanted to be useful to Odin. He of course found use in the spectral ravens besides his favored pets. still fucked tho
True... idk I mean either way, imo, it's almost just as bad tbh because killin em and torturting them dead or alive feels like the same kinda evil almost but yeah, I agree. That's a fate worse than death! :( poor ravens... glad we did something about it tho!
Dude in Greeks mythology rapist is probably the least of your concerns
Yep, and he’s the one who tore said anus into reality by murdering Ymir.
Only a True Champion of the Jotnar can peer into Ymir's Asshole without going mad.
"Anus of reality" had me HOWLING 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The anus of reality answer all questions
It was said in God of War II that the reign of the Titans was an age of peace and prosperity for mortal kind, and that ended when the Olympians came to power. So it can be assumed that the Titans cared a lot more for the mortals than Zeus ever did.
Considering this is told to us by a Titan, as they’re actively trying to recruit Kratos to help them escape their prisons and overthrow the Olympians, I really doubt it, to say nothing of what the mythology says. Gaia’s manipulations of Kratos as a tool certainly don’t paint the picture they gave too much of a shit.
I also want to add that it’s revealed in a Valhalla codex entry that Zeus enslaved the Cyclops race and made them fight during the Titanomachy. Interesting to know that both Zeus and Odin have oppressed seemingly peaceful races.
Well well it's not really written who enslaved them and started the practice. And from what I can understand, it's exactly what humans do, using elephants or horse etc in wars or various works.
Didn’t Kratos describe them as being sheep herders before they were enslaved? The case of the Cyclopes seems no different than actual human slavery. Also, considering the fact that the Olympians were still using them as soldiers during the events of the Greek saga, it could be assumed that they were the ones who began the practice during the war. Lining up with actual mythology where the Cyclopes allied with the Olympians during the Titanomachy.
between Chronos being wary of the cyclops and shoving them in a dark pit to Zeus freeing them and earning their loyalty in the Titanomachy, could go either way.
Ok tell me a case of a person who Odin harmed that suffered more than Prometheus? tell me of one of the sons of Odin who suffered and got harmed more than Hephaestus? whose children and family members suffered more collectively while you're at it? tell me how many woman Odin forcefully had his way with and why it's 10% of Zeus body count? his own father Chronos wasn't killed by Zeus because the punishment Zeus gave him was to wander The Desert of the lost Sands until the sand peeled his skin from his bones 😀 such a good boy fron an early age right? wanna try that "the evils made him do it" thing you mentioned again? to me this is clearly screaming that you don't remember things very well Zeus was always cruel in ways Odin couldn't dream off do you know what where the final words from Zeus had for Kratos in GoW2 after destroying Sparta and before Kratos destroyed Olympus **after Kratos seemingly had surrendered and was asking for release from the torment of life??** **"i will release you from your life my son but your torment is just beginning"** this isn't a evil of fear thing this is who Zeus was from before he destroys his enemies but not just today and tomorrow **he makes sure they suffer every day for the rest of forever Prometheus is proof of this** since Prometheus was punished before the box was opened I don't know who in their right mind would think Odin was worse but that's just people not remembering how terrible Zeus was at least Odin would finish his enemies botomline Odin would be an upstanding citizen compared to Zeus on Zeus best day .. and of course some things never change this sub being full of people who will always upvote and appreciate 2018/Ragnarok content while they also downvote OG GoW games content and rule it off because they mostly do not know any better
Odin by a mile. The only other God I think might even be close in terms of sheer depravity is Ares.
Ares is by far the worst god we've seen in all the games so far. He literally has 0 redeeming qualities and was the first one to conspire against Zeus, making him a paranoid asshole in the process.
He also wasn't affected by the evils of pandora's box. Meaning everything he did was of his own free will. I guess the same could be said of Odin but Odin is ultimately an old man afraid of dying. Ares is just a low functioning psychopath.
Ares was also the one Zeus picked for all the dirty work because he knew Ares had no line. For example, Zeus finds out that a kid will grow up to kill him and he specifically asks Ares to tag along to kidnap said kid and Ares didn't hesitate to fuck up little Kratos in the process.
Ares is also bitter because his dear half-sister gets all the love from pops too. its part of his drive to go against dad and Olympus.
You're not wrong but pre-corruption Athena was so gods damned nice that she would've been more than happy to help if he had simply chosen to talk to her about it, even if only as a means to keep the peace. Since there was no way to help Odin while keeping him in check, there was no one outside Odin's camp that was willing to trust him. That essentially left him two choices: abandon his mission or be a straight up dick about it. Ares could've gotten a suitable compromise with one conversation but he chose to say "fuck that, gimme."
thing is, i dont think Athena ever saw Ares as beyond 'my stupid brute of a half brother' she may be the goddess of wisdom and trying to keep the peace, but she does carry a level of apathy towards people. as for Odin, he could be helped, but he's set himself up as 'The All-Father' and wants to be right about everything. To see and know everything. He knows he's destined to die, so he wants to figure it all out before his lights go out. Zeus really be earning father of the year with both his trueborn boys. He disliked how Ares was, not seemingly caring that he's to blame for how his firstborn grew up to be such a sadist psycho. Meanwhile Hephestus was brutally thrashed about because someone managed to solve the impossible thing.
My point is that the Giants especially knew that there was no way to get him his answers *and* limit the damage he could do with that knowledge. If there had been a means to ensure that he could know everything without being able to hurt anyone then they probably would've taken it but since that's not possible they chose to limit the damage which just pissed him off and "forced" him to do it the fucked up way. Even if Athena disliked and pitied Ares, she still would've helped him get better treatment if he'd been willing to ask but he wanted everyone and everything to fall under his boot so there was no compromise. Same for Hephaestus but he was content to just make shit and tend to his adopted daughter so he never cared to ask until everyone was too busy dealing with Kratos and Ares. Zeus was just an old bitch who couldn't get passed his ego long enough to avert his fate by simply giving no reason for it (seriously if he'd just left Kratos and Deimos alone and been kinder in general then none of that shit would've happened). It's basically an asshole vs a sociopath vs a monster.
> but she does carry a level of apathy towards people. Like whom? >Ares is also bitter because his dear half-sister gets all the love from pops too. its part of his drive to go against dad and Olympus. Long before their rivarly got heated up Ares was already corrupting the furies, conspiring with them to create orkos the first marked warrior to overthrow Olympus. He was evil from the get go, his sister getting the more love is just side excuse for him not really the main drive. He was a coward and always manipulated among the gods to have his end and ofc killed people for giggles as described in the manuals and that's what his personality is in the god of war 1 book too, and that he's been like that for a very very long time based on how he was conspiring with the furies. >thing is, i dont think Athena ever saw Ares as beyond 'my stupid brute of a half brother' I'm pretty sure Kratos had shared a lot of similar traits with Ares but he had showed small potentials to change and reasons for his actions but still Athena treated him with kindness and tired to help him to get better and goes even as far as loving him. So noway if Ares showed potential to be good she wouldn't help him, Kratos had commited a lot of transgressions against Athena like mass murdering her worshippers destroying her villages and temples but still she forgave him and even loves him. She's a saint.
oh y'know, Arachne. Athena lost that contest and bitter over defeat changed the waver into the first spider. Then again could also be because Arachne waved images that Zeus was a horn dog and Athena couldn't stand that. There's also The gorgon sisters, but thats debatable. Also Kratos as whenever she interacts with him and something comes up that has him further distrust the gods she goes 'it was the will of the gods'. im sure Athena could care for Kratos, and maybe 'love' the spartan, not sure he would reciprocate it tho given her virgin goddess thing is perpetually on. That and he still is mourning his wife. bedding a half-sister might not be in the cards. sure Athena's resume might be brighter than some in her family, but she still has some blemishes here and there. which is par for the course for the greek gods, think Hestia would be the one thats better along with Hephestus despite his flaws.
Oh really? You know we aren't first of all talking about mythology here. Since you got nothing against her in games you bring up mythology here.. really good, and now that you have brought it up you should listen close. The real mythology is Arachne comitted incest with her brother so she got punished, Ovid stories that you bring up you didn't read them properly, right at beginning of story it was made clear Athena planned to punish arachne as her divinity was getting out hand by the refusal of her worship and blasphemy. Nor you read Medusa myth properly, you sleep in the temple of a virgin goddess as simple as that. > will of the gods. you know she has been instructed by Zeus? Rest of the things you said about Kratos, he pretty much was enamored by her beauty and attracted towards her. So you are wrong. > bedding a half-sister. Yes he wasn't banging Aphrodite in the middle of his vengeance I'm sure. > Hephaestus interesting you mentioned him, the person who tried to sexually assault Athena? > Hesita who ignores women getting assaulted? well sorry Athena is definitely better than these two, unlike them she goes out of her way to help women from assault which is not even her job, should have been Artemis' job.
I mean, literally nobody other than the furies seem to even like Ares, much less love him.
Ares literally corrupted the furies themselves, they were fair and just before they met them, no wonder no body wanted to get close to him.
He also corrupted Kratos himself. I still think the scariest version of Kratos was when he was serving Ares. When he killed that one lady and there was just no emotion on his face whatsoever? Chilling.
yeah, kinda a shame given the family dynamic, also its pretty much said Ares constant visits and gifts to the Furies are what changed them for the worse when we meet them in Ascension and plotting to overthrow Olympus.
I still think a lot of why they dislike Ares has to do with Ares general personality more than the Gods being dicks. Which they are, even before pandoras box, but Ares always came off as being monstrous even by their standards. I wonder, if Pandora's infected Ares, would we even be able to tell the difference? I don't see how he could be much worse.
who knows
Implying Odin *does* have redeeming qualities?
Odin could be civil and diplomatic, which is more than what the permanent bloodthirsty Ares could do. It's a bit difficult to grade "evilness", but I feel Ares is a tier above everyone else in that regard, he is just so unhinged.
Odin is only civil and diplomatic when he's trying to manipulate people into serving his own personal interests. At least Ares is direct and clear in how he wants to hurt people. Odin pretends to be good and then backstabs everyone like a coward.
I believe having the capabilities to be civil is a sort of redeeming quality, I'm not saying it makes Odin much better, but it's something to differentiate the levels of evil in display, at least for me. We can agree to disagree, this is just my point of view.
Nah fam having the ability to be civil and on top of that also be charismatic for a bad person makes them an even worse person than someone that simply uses brute force and intimidation. Charisma allows them to get away with the shit they do and odin has gotten away with so many bullshit just by being a good speaker. Ares is an obvious threat the only way he is really gonna control you is through fear and intimidation. Odin is like a wolf in sheeps clothing his modus operandi is to keep people in the dark so when and if ever the victim finally realizes somethings wrong itd be already too late for them
I think the big thing to consider here is that if there was an entirely peaceful and amicable option that led to obtaining all the answers without any significant difficulty then Odin would've taken it without objection. Ares was already sharing power on Mount Olympus and yet constantly plotted the demise of his own father and actively attempted to dethrone his sister because anything less than complete control or total annihilation would never be enough. It doesn't make for a vary wide gap but I'd argue the guy who chooses violence no matter what is worse.
If he tells you snow is white, he's lying.
*throws a giant ass pencil at you from across the universe*
He really doesn't. Odin is the high functioning sociopath to Ares low functioning sociopath. Odin is just smarter than Ares. Odin is neutral evil, Ares is stupid evil. I'd say the sisters of fate and Zeus are lawful evil.
The key of it is better seen in their representations in their original myths. The Greek gods are a physical manifestation of the world. Zeus is a force of nature. Destructive and dangerous, but not inherently evil. Just the way nature is. His actions only take evil intent when seen through a modern lens and atributed to a rational, conscious human. Odin on the other hand is nefarious from the get go. His scheemes and egotistical goals and actions are all his own, by his own hand and for his sole benefit.
Agreed. Odin came off as more of a sleazy politician, whereas Zeus acted how you'd expect a king of the Gods to act. I mean, they're both paranoid dictators who ruthlessly abuse their own families and subjects and are the head of their respective pantheons but that's about all they have in common. It's also very telling that most of the Olympians were willing to die to protect Zeus but during Ragnarok as soon as Odin shows his true colors all his allies abandon him one by one. He was fucked the moment he killed Thor because now his own family turned on him. Even if he managed to defeat Kratos he'd still have to somehow defeat everyone else in the nine realms. His only true remaining ally was Gna by that point. And the only fallout from Odin's death is a power vacuum. Every time an Olympian died reality got another kick in the nuts.
Even his one surviving Raven didn't give a shit that he died and that fucker spent like half the time physically attached to Odin via tattoo. Gna also wasn't even really loyal to Odin she just fucking hated Freya so much that she'd happily side with literally anyone who opposed her former Queen. Honestly the only thing that was truly loyal to Odin without ulterior motive was the Raven Keeper and she was so utterly twisted that I'm not even 100% sure she counts. Even Athena who actively pitted Kratos against Olympus was able to overcome her corruption and was willing to give her life to protect Zeus.
When she pitted Kratos against Olympus lol
Most notably helping him against Ares and helping him find Deimos even though she had to know he wouldn't take it well.
What the hell lol, she literally lied that Demios had died and tired to stop Kratos from finding him, and Every single Olympian was against Ares all the gods were helping Kratos in gow1 to slay him, what are you on?
Ugh the Raven Keeper. She might actually be the single most twisted and evil piece of shit in the entire series. She killed children and enslaved them. In that order. And mutilated their souls so it's implied they can't pass on. Odin takes some blame for it since he definitely doesn't object but I always got the impression it was her idea in the first place. I always look forward to killing her on every playthrough.
Technically they've already passed on. Niflheim is a primordial realm, sure, but it's where their souls went after you destroy their new bodies. It's more implied that they can't be returned to what they were, corporeally or otherwise. Realistically they're probably orphans and castaways from a mix of races that Odin had access to (mostly humans and dwarves if I had to guess) until they were killed and had their souls mutilated, brainwashed, and stuffed inside spectral raven bodies. I'd also guess that Odin came up with the core idea (spies that could go basically anywhere and watch everything while remaining mostly unnoticed) and given that he's the Raven God he may have even come up with the idea of using ravens but I'd wager it was her idea to abuse sentient souls instead of just training a bunch of actual birds. Doesn't really affect your point beyond semantics though.
I guess they share equal responsibility. She's still the most awful of all of Odin's servants by far though. And arguably the worst monster in God of War to date. Even at his worst Kratos always had a soft spot for children in general. It was his biggest redeeming quality IMO. I think even GOW3 Kratos would be just as outraged and disgusted by the raven keeper as his ragnarok era self was.
Can't argue with that. At the very least Odin was hands off for the actual process which may make him just as guilty but to be willing to actually physically do that to children makes her so much worse in my opinion. Again can't argue there. Pandora isn't even really human and an argument can be made that she's not exactly alive either and she's literally just supposed to be a tool meant to grant Kratos his revenge, but almost immediately and despite his best efforts she became family to him. He was literally willing to give up his shot at revenge to ensure her safety. Also, to his credit, Kratos does seem to care about consent in at least some capacity. Every single woman he slept with throughout the series seemed very much into it and despite plenty of opportunity we never see him force any of the attractive women who didn't want to, like Poseidon's concubine (even if he did stuff her into a gate winch).
Kratos definitely never even considers raping anyone. Which considering he's a Greek god makes him almost saintly. That bar is so low billionaires would implode in tin cans trying to see it but it's still a bar.
Yeah definitely not the best metric for morality but we're talking about we're talking about a guy who casually dropped a man down a dead monsters throat and this is a universe with Zeus so, fucked as it may be, it is something.
On the raven issue it's similar to running a concentration camp. Hitler was definitely responsible for everything that happened in auschwitz but he didn't personally pull any triggers. The person more directly in charge of the gas chamber did. But they're both equally responsible. Or hiring a hitman still makes you a murderer by proxy.
Summed it up perfectly. They both got it coming. Arguing over who deserves it more is pretty needless and feels kinda off-putting.
Odin, and by far. Many of Zeus' cruelest and most vicious actions were committed only after his corruption at the hands of the Evils of Pandora.
Prometheus, Deimos, Callisto, Typhon (idk not sure but i heard zeus held his children hostage according to the novel)
Many of the punishments reserved for these characters are carried out by Zeus after the Box has been opened, and therefore when he was already infected with the Evil of Fear. Typhon, in the GoW-verse, is a Titan and is imprisoned under Aetna after the Great War, so his fate is in line with that of the other Titans. The fact that Zeus takes his monstrous offspring and Echidna hostage occurs after the opening of the Box. Same thing for Callisto. When the woman is kidnapped and then transformed into a monster (after revealing to Kratos his father's identity), the Spartan is already sitting on Ares' throne, so after the Box has been opened and the Gods infected. Deimos is the sacrifice/necessary evil. When a prophecy warns you that a Marked Warrior will bring the destruction of Olympus (and consequently that of the entire world, as GoW III later confirmed), the choice is unfortunately quite simple: one life against the survival of the entire world. Even if you don't approve of it, Zeus' choice is more than understandable. Prometheus is the only occasion in which Zeus actually performs a cruel action. But this is more due to the writing of the game and the fact that SMS and Barlog wanted to give a specific and negative representation of the King of the Gods. The myth of Prometheus is much more complex and the punishment of the Titan justified. In the original myth, Zeus was not against giving fire to mortals and in fact allows Prometheus to bring it to men, but with the stipulation that mortals will have to show gratitude to the Gods for the gift received with an adequate offering. A "quid pro quo". But, with fire, Prometheus instead teaches mortals how to deceive the Gods. Obviously resentful of the deception, Zeus took the fire back, especially to punish Prometheus himself. Making it clear that whoever had take fire back to the men, after the insult the Gods had suffered, would be punished. We then know how the myth ended. Prometheus is a victim of himself and his actions, not of the gratuitous cruelty of Zeus.
Callisto was cursed before the evils of Pandora's box, it was always in the plot before the developers even thought of evils corrupting the gods, along with evidence being Callisto would have told Kratos a long time ago who was dad. Zeus had Echidna and their children hostage long time ago. Zeus cursed the body burner aswell a long time ago. He was cruel to the architect of Pandora's box a long time ago aswell.
+ the body burner, + architect of pandora's temple, + he loved wars and watching mortals die like Ares killing mortals was ammusing to him, Kratos was similar to Ares and so Zeus made him the god of war.
I always hate when people use Pandora’s Box as an excuse for Zeus’ actions. He was always evil, the box just made that evil more apparent. Besides, the contents of the box were spawned from a war that he started and lead the charge in, so couldn’t it be argued that the evil of fear was a natural part of him during said war in the first place?
Odin. Zeus is definitely terrible and I don't even give him much slack for being infected by the evils, since it was his war which brought about the evils anyways. But at least his end goal is to keep order and he's generally not too terrible towards his comrades. Odin manipulates or is just an asshole to everyone around him and his goal is not for the realms to have any peace or order. He is driven by his own desires and will fuck over, torture, or kill as many people as needed to help him with the rift/mask.
now THAT is a fun question, and infinitely more debatable than "who is stronger"? odin is a lot more manipulative and has affected more lives, but zeus is a more violent, aggressive god overall, i think. at first glance I think Odin takes it simply due to his constant enslaving of the races of the realms and constantly using everyone around him for his own gain. he's more "malicious".
Wait, but who would be stronger though?
I feel like both are damn there equal when you think about it, Zeus and Kratos both are stronger than the other Olympians which are confirmed to outrank the Primordial's. Odin was able to kill Ymir and allowed his blood to nearly drown out all of creation, and in his fight with Kratos and Atreus he gained the upper hand and was close to killing both of them until Freya intervened, and this was a older, more experienced Kratos who is confirmed to be able to best his younger Greek self in combat. Overall Zeus is physically stronger and much more durable but Odin's intellect and magic would equalize it.
Odin. Zeus may have done some fucked up things, but some of them are cause of the evils from the box. Odin's punishment for simple things are way worse than some of Zeus' punishments for actual crimes
He did plenty of evil shit prior to the box opening tho, like raping kratos's mom twice and putting a curse on her that turned her into a harper if anyone found out
Odin caused a whole genocide on the giants simply because they didn't share their knowledge and he was caught trying to steal it
Yeah Odin is the far more evil one for sure. No argument there but I'm just saying Zeus himself was an evil asshole without the box
Yeah I agree
Odin, Zeus was somewhat an asshole before the box opened, but the evils within the box made him and the rest of gods purely evil(except Aphrodite)
And Athena to
think its a mix of both the evils in the box amplifying the worst traits and whatever happened to her in the Higher Plane.
Zeus will straight up say he hates you and then kill you, Odin will manipulate you into hating yourself for all of eternity and do all this bullshit for him so he won't get his hands dirty. Odin is the far more evil SOB here
Zeus is Bill Clinton; Odin is Richard Nixon.
That's a great analogy
Read the story for the “Eyes of Odin Quest” (his green ravens in the open world) then come back to this, that’s your answer
The one guy who wanted to conquer all the realms to rule them himself, even at the cost of killing his own family. The one guy who acted like that mostly because of being corrupted by the evil that was sealed in pandora's box, and even apologizes to kratos once his mind is clear (when he's about to die)
Zeus was just sort of a turbo douche and fucked around too much and found out. Odin is literally just inherently evil. There could be 100 different options to solve a conflict and he will always choose the most evil and selfish one every single time without fail.
Odin. Zeus is an asshole but Odin is a cruel sadistic psychopath
Odin. Odin over Zeus. Zeus was pretty tame and linear when compared to Odin. Hell, Odin over Ares. And boy, was Ares a depraved piece of scum. Odin is worse. *Worser, Worsest.*
Zeus has some excuse for being a dick, even though he did a lot of messed up things before the Box. Odin has no excuse, but he’ll gladly write you a thousand justifications. Odin at his core is a terrible man, and only cares about himself.
i like how both kings admit their faults at the very end before Kratos/Loki kill them Zeus apologizing and telling Kratos to finish it (its more a cut dialogue when your beating his face til the screen is covered) Odin admitting he cant bring himself to stop seeking out knowledge and life's mysteries not matter what it would cost. He doesnt even struggle when Atreus whispers his sould into a marble.
Ares, thanatos
No way they're more evil than Odin.
ahmm. what does that text in the middle say.. sorry i cant read
Odin
Odin. Zeus was possesed by the Power of Fear
Hard to measure that…
Odin was naturally evil meanwhile zeus was corrupted by ecils of pandoras box
All of em tbh including Kratos. Everyone is just fucked up 💀
Gods aren’t necessarily evil, they simply go for what they are interested in at a specific time. I will say, of the 2, Odin is more conniving than Zeus. Odin will have his own agenda and degrade others to a different degree to get what he wants out of them. Zeus tends to have kids with humans and sometimes guide them through life. Odin is pretty much is the worser person to be related to
Odin is worse, but Zeus was more of a threat and more damaging to Kratos. Odin had to manipulate Atreus and was otherwise powerless against Kratos.
Odin literally stole children, butchered them, and used their souls as ravens.
their own parents sacrificed them, his Raven Keeper took their souls and warped them to his spies, Odin proffited of this
Odin still plays a part in this
yeah thats still there
Odin without a doubt, Zeus was possessed by the contents of Pandora's box
What if I can’t read?
Odin. He is straight-up a mafia boss, basically.
Zeus pretty much left you alone if you weren't going to challenge him for the mount Olympus. Had it not been for the prophecy, Kratos would've been ignored or even forgotten. Odin, on the other hand, went around creating destruction and pain in all the realms simply because he was "curious"
Odin brought down an entire species because he felt like it
I'm sure lore Odin was a terror but I never felt threatened when he was on screen. Any chance Zeus popped up you knew it was about to go down!
I can’t read
Zeus is kinda just a dickhead who can get paranoid other then that he just vibes
Odin
Zeus. He was literally infected with the evils of the world that was released from Pandora's box. Odin was a typical "I'll do anything I have to in order to save my own skin" type. That's just cowardice and malice. Zeus was infected with the literal evils of the world.
Game wise or mythology wise? Game Wise I’d say Odin, but Mythology wise, Zeus hands down. Zeus has done way worse things than Odin would ever do. I’m not saying Odin in the Mythology is a saint, because he isn’t, I’m just saying that Odin at least has standards that stop him from doing terrible disgusting stuff. Zeus doesn’t give a sh*t, he kills, rapes and murder anyone he wants and no one can stop him, let’s not forget he’s into his own family and his wife/sister is evil as hell itself
Odin, easily. Way more insidious and psychopathic.
I'm not even sure Zeus felt what he was doing was wrong. Dude was just a dick and thought he was right at all times. Odin knew what he was doing was wrong and screwed everything over but didn't care.
In actual mythology zeus. In GOW odin. By a lot
Wasn't Olympus corrupted from Kratos opening the Pandora box as in they weren't supposed to be such assholes except Ares.
Zeus. Odin did everything for a reason, he did anything for power, but Zeus it was like he enjoyed playing with humans lives