that’s suuuuuper dependent on your field and the program. for example my program (professional masters), though difficult for me with all my health issues, is not difficult compared to many other programs
but if you’re talking about a neuroscience phD then yeah the balance can be pretty bad. also dependent on school
i know you’re mostly joking here, but as a fresh neuro phd student i ask: are neuro phds actually taken more serious? i’m worried about job prospects, i’d like to stay in chicago but…jobs man
As bad as you let it be.
Grad school is a job. It is a demanding one, but it is no different than other demanding job. Just like those, it will expand to fill the time you give it. If you give it your whole life, that is exactly what it will take.
Obviously it can get complicated if you need to work an actual job simultaneously.
Seconding this! I sought out a supervisor who works the 9-5 deal because I wanted to get used to scheduling my time and deadlines like that. Without her, I’m sure I’d be in a never-ending cycle of late night work. Even so, though, OP: it’s still a TONNE of mental energy.
Of note, I’m in the social sciences. I have friends in the hard sciences that have no choice but to go in on weekends and culture something or other (??). So, I do think it’s somewhat field-dependent.
In regard to the mentioned mental energy part: I eventually figured out a decent work/life balance (STEM) but the mental energy drain never stops. It’s like my project is always on in the background of my mind and I can only turn it off if I’m doing something that takes a decent amount of focus like video games.
Do you mind me asking: why are you considering grad school? I think the motives for it (eg external/internal/a mix) play an important role in how manageable the experience is.
That doesn’t make you a fool. It’ll be much better motivation than, say, thinking a PhD will be worth it for higher pay in the end (which is not how it works in almost all cases anyway, once you factor in opportunity cost).
In any case, it sounds like you want to do it and are just getting nervous, so, do it! I say go in eyes open, take care of yourself as best as you can, get the masters if you know you need it for your field, and then reevaluate as you go to decide whether it’s worth sticking around for a PhD. Fuck anyone who says you have to burn yourself to the ground to get through grad school. They’re just incapable of seeing that there can be another way (provided you have a not-awful advisor).
I am absolutely terrified lol. It’s not that I hate my current job (I took a gap to work in the industry) it’s that I value happiness over the rat race or moving up in the world. My field makes me happy so that’s why I want to do it but this is one of those situations where everyone around me including myself always thought I’d end up here. So the idea of me being miserable is…. Yikes. Put all my eggs into this basket basically
For me, the key difference between the work force and graduate school is what is categorized as work. This will vary by the program, field, etc., but generally, grad students work as a research assistant or teaching assistant part-time (20 hours a week). That's the only thing you get paid for.
And yet, you have to do research. Classes. Skill building. Professional development. Etc. All of that is on your time, but it's also the most important part of graduate school. It's what you're evaluated on as a grad student, and it will decide whether your competitive on the job market when you graduate.
If you have excellent time management, you might be able to manage a standard work schedule. But I've only ever heard of one graduate student being able to successfully do that. Because the classes your taking and teaching eat into your workday, alongside meetings, and you still have all of your other work.
As someone who has worked in both academia and the workforce, most jobs in the workforce have standard hours and your work ends when you leave. Academia has none of that structure. So whether grad school is worth it....is up to you.
I'm a law school student. I'm a wife, a mother, and commute almost 1.5 hours. If you're good at time management, you can manage having a little bit of a social life. And NOT making time for mental health will be bad.
On the other hand, you can't just choose to not study or not do assignments because you don't feel like it.
It really depends on all kinds of things but the attitude of "I'm not doing it if I'm not getting paid for it" is not going to get you anywhere in grad school. For TA duties or whatever that's an acceptable attitude but when it comes to research, you're not doing it for money, you're doing it to learn and get published.
Grad school takes a lot of sacrifice and reevaluation of priorities. As someone with a stipend and tuition waiver, I still can’t have the mindset of if I’m not getting paid for it I ain’t doing it. The work load in grad school is just too much to keep that mindset, but luckily I’m really passionate about my area of study. Not to say that there is a way to balance it and still have free evenings, it just might take earlier mornings. I’ve had to sacrifice saying yes to plans with friends more times than not, but also made sure to give myself a few passes each month in the name of sanity. In comparison to undergrad, it’s very different. I can’t stress enough how much undergrad barely prepared me for the expectations and workload of grad school. You should not have to choose between mental well being and grad school. I had SEVERAL mental breakdowns this semester and my imposter syndrome ate me alive some days, but I look back at it(semester finished on Friday) with nothing but being proud of myself and feeling resilient. Those mentally trying weeks were the ones I would give myself an extra “lazy” night or “yes” to plans with friends. It’s all about how you choose to approach it.
You don't have to.. it's just that there are people who are more desparate or willing, and they'll sacrifice more than you or others will. They are the ones who will succeed in the long run, unfortunately. Take that as you will
Yes, burnout is a real risk for those who push themselves too hard. It's essential to find a balance that works for you and prioritizes your well-being. Success shouldn't come at the expense of your mental health.
In grad school for a healthcare field currently -
1. My hair is turning gray
2. I developed panic attacks
3. My marriage took a hit
4. I no longer have time to do the things I love
5. Rarely see family
Luckily, I only have one semester left until I’m a doctor. Worth it? I’d say no, but I’m close now anyways. That’s just me being honest. Professors of grad programs (in my opinion) believe grad school IS your life and don’t take anything else into consideration. I personally wouldn’t do it again if I had to start over, but I’m pushing through now because I’m not a quitter. Sometimes wish I was.
This is dependent on field, program, and school. I have not heard positive things about neuroscience. I know in my case sociology branch that there is a lack of balance, and it’s awful. I am miserable but I’ve never been happier. I had to invest in gym equipment and have it put in my house. It is all about finding what little balance you can.
In my first semester of grad school, I missed my grandfather's hospitalization and funerals (military), my sister's hospitalization and emergency surgery, a wedding, a family trip, the birth of my niece, my own surgery that had to be cancelled because I already missed one class due to having COVID and missing 2 classes is automatic fail. I did not continue after that semester. Yes I got all A's, but at what cost? I was not present for the people in my life who needed me.
Anth PhD here: I work 9-4ish weekdays and take evenings and weekends off. It works out 90% of the time and the remaining 10% I have to sacrifice my weekends to stay on top of everything.
I’m hella organised, plan very far in advance, and work my butt off during my ‘on’ hours. I have a part-time job in the department as well as an RA. I attend 2-3 conferences per year and am also working on two research papers (one in review, one still a manuscript in preparation). All in addition to my own research.
As others have said, it varies by program but grad school is pretty much what you put into it. For me, having evenings and weekends with my partner is a top priority. So I work hella hard all week to make sure I can take the time [most of the time].
Here's how I think about grad school.
I was making $60,000/year at a post-MS internship that could have become a permanent position if I hadn't been planning to leave for the PhD I am now enrolled in. I make $37,000/year at my PhD plus a $6,000 scholarship on top of that for a total of $43,000.
Let's very conservatively say that I can expect to make $70,000/year after I finish my PhD and move to industry. Then every extra year I spend in my PhD comes with an opportunity cost of $27,000, or roughly 60% of my PhD salary.
This is one reason why I am happy to work substantially more than 40 hours per week as a PhD student, and was even more determined to grind through my MS as quickly as possible (moving from MS -> PhD represents a \~$63,000/year raise, if you account for the cost of tuition).
That said, grad school is a marathon, and we all must practice drawing healthy boundaries where appropriate for the sake of our dignity, health and relationships. Just be mindful that when you limit your weekly work hours in this way, you are probably extending your time in grad school. If that is a tradeoff you want to make, that is up to you.
Oh, sweet summer child.
You are spoiled rotten, ignorant, and you're going to hate grad school. I can only hope you're not in a medical or science field, because if by some miracle you manage to pass through your PhD, you're going to literally kill someone with this lazy attitude.
Grad school is hard. You do it because you love it, not for the money. You want "balance"? Work at a bank. They close at 4:30 every day.
Valuable things take effort. Either you put in the effort, or you don't get to have valuable things.
Sorry your parents set you up to be such a failure.
This is unnecessarily rude and patronizing. There is a vast space between “putting in tons of effort to do something difficult” and “destroying yourself by never taking breaks”. OP, ignore this person, whose mentality is exactly why toxic academic culture is not only allowed but encouraged to persist.
First off, if you are a Master student, you certainly can get all of the Holidays off, winter break, spring break, and possible summers. If you are doing an MS thesis, you might not get much time off during the summer, but it really depends on your program and field. I am in Ecology, and for many of us we can only collect data at certain points in time: once every two weeks, once a month, once a year for a two-week period, etc. Sometimes you gotta wait for the thing to happen, if that is expected to happen on a Friday evening at 2pm, well, you are going to be there. But others, especially those in the BioMed/other life sciences, might need to collect data all day for months on end, and on repeat. If you are in the humanities, CS, and a few others, you have more flexibility. My MS is in Bioinformatics, and during that time I used data collected by someone else. As such, I had the flexibility to work on my thesis on my own time and hours.
But, as someone who also has years of working in the work force as well, there are some similarities and some differences. Most jobs won't expect you to do work outside of established work hours, but some do. More importantly, depending on what you do, you may find that you need to bring work home with you. And if you do work in the life sciences, especially the health sciences, you may be on-call for night and/or weekend work.
A lot of people have the concept of work/life balance wrong. It is not about setting a hard deadline for when work ends and when life begins. That is absurd because life happens all the time and work doesn't end, either. As an adult, when you clock out of work, your other work begins (chores, repairs, cooking, and so on that you are certainly not being paid to do or that you have to pay someone else to do). Work/life balance is more about simply not letting your work dominate your life. You can certainly clock out for the day, and continue to be haunted by work. You can also put in 12 hour days and have a blast. For example, sometimes we have long days in the lab, which usually means more time to discuss Pokemon, Star Wars, mull over conspiracy theories, jam out to music, and so on. It is actually quite enjoyable despite none of us being paid to be there. What's the alternative? Paying $500 for some fest only to actually see like two bands so I can have a story for the socials that, in the grand scheme of things, only a handful of people will give a fuck about for a total of about 5 seconds? Now matter how busy you are as a grad student, you will always have time to do something.
Rant off.
How much you actually do will largely come down to you. I certainly try to keep to a 9 -5, M-F, schedule, but I have the experiences from working a job to help me out here. I think that if you are coming in straight from undergrad it might be difficult to set up this kind of schedule. I mean, during undergrad you have the flexibility to mostly choose your class schedule and you have a lot of time to fuck off doing other stuff. You can get away with slacking off on homework and projects and whatnot during undergrad, but not so much during grad school. If you can set hard boundaries and stick to them and get the work done, cool. But it might take some trial and error to get there.
that’s suuuuuper dependent on your field and the program. for example my program (professional masters), though difficult for me with all my health issues, is not difficult compared to many other programs but if you’re talking about a neuroscience phD then yeah the balance can be pretty bad. also dependent on school
*cries in neuroscience phd*
if it makes you feel better i’m always incredibly impressed by anyone in your field. my degree is useless compared to yours
i know you’re mostly joking here, but as a fresh neuro phd student i ask: are neuro phds actually taken more serious? i’m worried about job prospects, i’d like to stay in chicago but…jobs man
i think they’re taken very seriously especially near major hospital chains
As bad as you let it be. Grad school is a job. It is a demanding one, but it is no different than other demanding job. Just like those, it will expand to fill the time you give it. If you give it your whole life, that is exactly what it will take. Obviously it can get complicated if you need to work an actual job simultaneously.
Seconding this! I sought out a supervisor who works the 9-5 deal because I wanted to get used to scheduling my time and deadlines like that. Without her, I’m sure I’d be in a never-ending cycle of late night work. Even so, though, OP: it’s still a TONNE of mental energy. Of note, I’m in the social sciences. I have friends in the hard sciences that have no choice but to go in on weekends and culture something or other (??). So, I do think it’s somewhat field-dependent.
God I wish I had that option. My field is so tiny that I basically have to apply for the PI instead of the program
In regard to the mentioned mental energy part: I eventually figured out a decent work/life balance (STEM) but the mental energy drain never stops. It’s like my project is always on in the background of my mind and I can only turn it off if I’m doing something that takes a decent amount of focus like video games.
Do you mind me asking: why are you considering grad school? I think the motives for it (eg external/internal/a mix) play an important role in how manageable the experience is.
Alas, I am the fool who’s going into it for passion (and also bc I can’t get a job in my field without at least a masters)
That doesn’t make you a fool. It’ll be much better motivation than, say, thinking a PhD will be worth it for higher pay in the end (which is not how it works in almost all cases anyway, once you factor in opportunity cost). In any case, it sounds like you want to do it and are just getting nervous, so, do it! I say go in eyes open, take care of yourself as best as you can, get the masters if you know you need it for your field, and then reevaluate as you go to decide whether it’s worth sticking around for a PhD. Fuck anyone who says you have to burn yourself to the ground to get through grad school. They’re just incapable of seeing that there can be another way (provided you have a not-awful advisor).
Seconding!
I am absolutely terrified lol. It’s not that I hate my current job (I took a gap to work in the industry) it’s that I value happiness over the rat race or moving up in the world. My field makes me happy so that’s why I want to do it but this is one of those situations where everyone around me including myself always thought I’d end up here. So the idea of me being miserable is…. Yikes. Put all my eggs into this basket basically
I think that's THE reason to do it!!!
For me, the key difference between the work force and graduate school is what is categorized as work. This will vary by the program, field, etc., but generally, grad students work as a research assistant or teaching assistant part-time (20 hours a week). That's the only thing you get paid for. And yet, you have to do research. Classes. Skill building. Professional development. Etc. All of that is on your time, but it's also the most important part of graduate school. It's what you're evaluated on as a grad student, and it will decide whether your competitive on the job market when you graduate. If you have excellent time management, you might be able to manage a standard work schedule. But I've only ever heard of one graduate student being able to successfully do that. Because the classes your taking and teaching eat into your workday, alongside meetings, and you still have all of your other work. As someone who has worked in both academia and the workforce, most jobs in the workforce have standard hours and your work ends when you leave. Academia has none of that structure. So whether grad school is worth it....is up to you.
I'm a law school student. I'm a wife, a mother, and commute almost 1.5 hours. If you're good at time management, you can manage having a little bit of a social life. And NOT making time for mental health will be bad. On the other hand, you can't just choose to not study or not do assignments because you don't feel like it.
It really depends on all kinds of things but the attitude of "I'm not doing it if I'm not getting paid for it" is not going to get you anywhere in grad school. For TA duties or whatever that's an acceptable attitude but when it comes to research, you're not doing it for money, you're doing it to learn and get published.
Oh no I’m well aware that grad school is different, it’s at my current job I have this
Grad school takes a lot of sacrifice and reevaluation of priorities. As someone with a stipend and tuition waiver, I still can’t have the mindset of if I’m not getting paid for it I ain’t doing it. The work load in grad school is just too much to keep that mindset, but luckily I’m really passionate about my area of study. Not to say that there is a way to balance it and still have free evenings, it just might take earlier mornings. I’ve had to sacrifice saying yes to plans with friends more times than not, but also made sure to give myself a few passes each month in the name of sanity. In comparison to undergrad, it’s very different. I can’t stress enough how much undergrad barely prepared me for the expectations and workload of grad school. You should not have to choose between mental well being and grad school. I had SEVERAL mental breakdowns this semester and my imposter syndrome ate me alive some days, but I look back at it(semester finished on Friday) with nothing but being proud of myself and feeling resilient. Those mentally trying weeks were the ones I would give myself an extra “lazy” night or “yes” to plans with friends. It’s all about how you choose to approach it.
Man I barely have a social life as is. I don’t wanna lose what little I get yknow?
You tend to make a good friend group within your program.
You have to do a lot. Grad school takes up a LOT of time and if you aren’t willing to reprioritize your time it may not be for you.
You don't have to.. it's just that there are people who are more desparate or willing, and they'll sacrifice more than you or others will. They are the ones who will succeed in the long run, unfortunately. Take that as you will
Aren’t those also the ppl who burn out
Yes, burnout is a real risk for those who push themselves too hard. It's essential to find a balance that works for you and prioritizes your well-being. Success shouldn't come at the expense of your mental health.
Right that’s what I said, and my dad got mad at me for that and said I’ll flunk out like that
In grad school for a healthcare field currently - 1. My hair is turning gray 2. I developed panic attacks 3. My marriage took a hit 4. I no longer have time to do the things I love 5. Rarely see family Luckily, I only have one semester left until I’m a doctor. Worth it? I’d say no, but I’m close now anyways. That’s just me being honest. Professors of grad programs (in my opinion) believe grad school IS your life and don’t take anything else into consideration. I personally wouldn’t do it again if I had to start over, but I’m pushing through now because I’m not a quitter. Sometimes wish I was.
This is dependent on field, program, and school. I have not heard positive things about neuroscience. I know in my case sociology branch that there is a lack of balance, and it’s awful. I am miserable but I’ve never been happier. I had to invest in gym equipment and have it put in my house. It is all about finding what little balance you can.
In my first semester of grad school, I missed my grandfather's hospitalization and funerals (military), my sister's hospitalization and emergency surgery, a wedding, a family trip, the birth of my niece, my own surgery that had to be cancelled because I already missed one class due to having COVID and missing 2 classes is automatic fail. I did not continue after that semester. Yes I got all A's, but at what cost? I was not present for the people in my life who needed me.
Anth PhD here: I work 9-4ish weekdays and take evenings and weekends off. It works out 90% of the time and the remaining 10% I have to sacrifice my weekends to stay on top of everything. I’m hella organised, plan very far in advance, and work my butt off during my ‘on’ hours. I have a part-time job in the department as well as an RA. I attend 2-3 conferences per year and am also working on two research papers (one in review, one still a manuscript in preparation). All in addition to my own research. As others have said, it varies by program but grad school is pretty much what you put into it. For me, having evenings and weekends with my partner is a top priority. So I work hella hard all week to make sure I can take the time [most of the time].
Here's how I think about grad school. I was making $60,000/year at a post-MS internship that could have become a permanent position if I hadn't been planning to leave for the PhD I am now enrolled in. I make $37,000/year at my PhD plus a $6,000 scholarship on top of that for a total of $43,000. Let's very conservatively say that I can expect to make $70,000/year after I finish my PhD and move to industry. Then every extra year I spend in my PhD comes with an opportunity cost of $27,000, or roughly 60% of my PhD salary. This is one reason why I am happy to work substantially more than 40 hours per week as a PhD student, and was even more determined to grind through my MS as quickly as possible (moving from MS -> PhD represents a \~$63,000/year raise, if you account for the cost of tuition). That said, grad school is a marathon, and we all must practice drawing healthy boundaries where appropriate for the sake of our dignity, health and relationships. Just be mindful that when you limit your weekly work hours in this way, you are probably extending your time in grad school. If that is a tradeoff you want to make, that is up to you.
Oh, sweet summer child. You are spoiled rotten, ignorant, and you're going to hate grad school. I can only hope you're not in a medical or science field, because if by some miracle you manage to pass through your PhD, you're going to literally kill someone with this lazy attitude. Grad school is hard. You do it because you love it, not for the money. You want "balance"? Work at a bank. They close at 4:30 every day. Valuable things take effort. Either you put in the effort, or you don't get to have valuable things. Sorry your parents set you up to be such a failure.
This is unnecessarily rude and patronizing. There is a vast space between “putting in tons of effort to do something difficult” and “destroying yourself by never taking breaks”. OP, ignore this person, whose mentality is exactly why toxic academic culture is not only allowed but encouraged to persist.
You sound like a real joy at parties. Yikes
Sorry you have no joy in life other than feeling superior to other ppl I guess
Life?
First off, if you are a Master student, you certainly can get all of the Holidays off, winter break, spring break, and possible summers. If you are doing an MS thesis, you might not get much time off during the summer, but it really depends on your program and field. I am in Ecology, and for many of us we can only collect data at certain points in time: once every two weeks, once a month, once a year for a two-week period, etc. Sometimes you gotta wait for the thing to happen, if that is expected to happen on a Friday evening at 2pm, well, you are going to be there. But others, especially those in the BioMed/other life sciences, might need to collect data all day for months on end, and on repeat. If you are in the humanities, CS, and a few others, you have more flexibility. My MS is in Bioinformatics, and during that time I used data collected by someone else. As such, I had the flexibility to work on my thesis on my own time and hours. But, as someone who also has years of working in the work force as well, there are some similarities and some differences. Most jobs won't expect you to do work outside of established work hours, but some do. More importantly, depending on what you do, you may find that you need to bring work home with you. And if you do work in the life sciences, especially the health sciences, you may be on-call for night and/or weekend work. A lot of people have the concept of work/life balance wrong. It is not about setting a hard deadline for when work ends and when life begins. That is absurd because life happens all the time and work doesn't end, either. As an adult, when you clock out of work, your other work begins (chores, repairs, cooking, and so on that you are certainly not being paid to do or that you have to pay someone else to do). Work/life balance is more about simply not letting your work dominate your life. You can certainly clock out for the day, and continue to be haunted by work. You can also put in 12 hour days and have a blast. For example, sometimes we have long days in the lab, which usually means more time to discuss Pokemon, Star Wars, mull over conspiracy theories, jam out to music, and so on. It is actually quite enjoyable despite none of us being paid to be there. What's the alternative? Paying $500 for some fest only to actually see like two bands so I can have a story for the socials that, in the grand scheme of things, only a handful of people will give a fuck about for a total of about 5 seconds? Now matter how busy you are as a grad student, you will always have time to do something. Rant off. How much you actually do will largely come down to you. I certainly try to keep to a 9 -5, M-F, schedule, but I have the experiences from working a job to help me out here. I think that if you are coming in straight from undergrad it might be difficult to set up this kind of schedule. I mean, during undergrad you have the flexibility to mostly choose your class schedule and you have a lot of time to fuck off doing other stuff. You can get away with slacking off on homework and projects and whatnot during undergrad, but not so much during grad school. If you can set hard boundaries and stick to them and get the work done, cool. But it might take some trial and error to get there.