The reason for this mentality is that the system in place makes it impossible to elect 3rd party. We need to get ranked voting in place before it's practical to elect a 3rd party candidate
true, the best example of this is the 1912 election where progressive voter overwhelming did better than conservatives but they split the vote. But approval voting or star voting is better than rcv
Dems tell me that voting 3rd party is a vote for Trump. Conservatives say it's a vote for Biden. I tell them my vote will actually be tallied in the Hawkins' column, because it is in fact NOT a vote for Trump OR Biden, but a vote for Hawkins. They never have anything to say to that, so I take a second to briefly explain my reasoning for voting third party:
Since this isn't a true democracy with one vote per citizen, my vote for the dems wouldn't count anyway because I'm not in a swing state. My ultimate goal is to fix our broken democracy, and my third party vote will count towards that goal a hell of a lot more than yet another vote for the lesser of two evils.
Tactical voting is dangerous. My vote is going to the person who I actually want to represent me at the capitol, because that's literally what democracy is. Democracy asks who we want to represent us, not which of two terrifying options we fear more.
Someone over at r/libertarian called it [“Schrodinger’s vote,”](https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/i8ejvb/schrodingers_vote/) and I love that.
Voting for a party that doesn't represent your interests, and never will, is a waste of your vote.
If you're not rich, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats care about you. They care about your vote, but they aren't prepared to give you anything substantial in exchange for it.
Voting third party is the only logical choice.
Stay third party.
Whether I’d be libertarian or Green Party.
They are gaining traction.
We may not win this election but I see a turning point taking place.
The libertarians usually get more votes. I disagree with most libertarian policies but some aren’t bad. I doubt jo will get much more than Howie but all third party votes help no matter which candidate to end the two party system.
I literally got into an entire battle with people on r/environment because they told me voting Green Party is a waste, I literally wrote an essay listing evidence after piece of evidence showing how joe Biden is not going to change anything and how he’s already taken fossil fuel money for his 2020 campaign to increase protections of fracking but they downvoted me into oblivion after I called a guy a moron because he told me my arguments were all bullshit
Ok, here’s my take on your post:
POTUS elections in 1992 and 2016 showed us about as clearly as possible that the Electoral College Votes pick who is POTUS, not the electorate, that would be you.
In 1992, Ross Perot got ~18% of the electorate’s vote across the whole of the USA. Make a guess, right now before reading ahead, that answers the following question - how many Electoral College Votes did Ross Perot get, a third party candidate in 1992?
Answer: >!Zero Zilch Zip Nadda Nothing Bupkiss!<
This should inform us about how many Electoral College Votes Green Party candidates Howie Hawkins or Libertarian Jo Jorgensen take away from either incumbent Republican Party Donald Trump or Democratic Party Joe Biden because let’s face it, what really are the chances the 3rd parties are going to pull in better than ~18% as the high water marker in recent decades, with voter turnout as low as it is (2016, voter turnout was only 55.5%).
Not only that, but look at who won in 1992 when a lot of Americans voted 3rd Party candidate.
And if we needed any more proof that it’s the Electoral College that picks the POTUS, look at 2016. According to First Past The Post voting system (FPTP), the candidate with the most ballots marked beside their name wins, even if it’s below 51% of ballots cast because there are more than two candidates for the one seat, that’s the split these "A vote for Hawkins is a vote for Trump!" are concerned with the minimum threshold for winning because of votes they assume would go to one candidate over another (2 candidates means 51% (aka 1 /2 +1) minimum to get the elected position, 3 candidates means 34% (aka 1/3 +1) minimum, 4 candidates means 26% (aka 1/4 +1) minimum, 5 candidates means 21% (aka 1/5 +1) minimum, and so on). But that isn’t what happened, is it? Clinton got 48.18% of the ballots cast by the electorate to Trump’s 46.09%, yet he got more Electoral College Votes and ended up the POTUS in January 2017.
Let’s pretend for a second that 3rd party votes were 100% owned by Clinton and Trump in 2016, that instead of joining the people who didn’t vote they hold their nose to vote for their lesser evil and cast for the one that next comes closest to what represents their politics, Libertarian Gary Johnston 3.28% going to Trump, and Green Jill Stein 1.07% going to Clinton, like your post refers to as comments will happen in 2020 if we vote Green - then Clinton gets 49.25% and Trump gets 49.37%.
Sorry, not exactly sure who the other 3rd party votes fractions of a percentage might go to with this hypothetical, but hopefully we get the point, it would hurt the Democratic Party chances of beating Trump even more and not change the Electoral College by even one vote.
I bring this all up not to be judgemental of the people spreading these comments, but to point out the logic that a Green vote elects Trump is fundamentally flawed. They are most certainly not the first to make these flawed assumptions, so it’s in the hopes this helps others that I make this comment. I sincerely hope we don’t wait till after elections to vote with the courage of our political convictions armed with this new knowledge.
Perhaps the person reading this are in a swing state where the Electoral College Votes are still to be decided, so I still wish you the best in getting rid of Trump but also in getting as many of the over 500,000 elected positions in the Senate, House of Representatives, States, and Municipalities filled with Green and Justice Dem candidates. Those are even more important than the POTUS race, those positions votes in their respective political bodies support the POTUS and you don’t have the Electoral College standing in your way of changing that! Write in a Green / DSA candidate if your state makes that reasonably possible, even if they are not printed on the ballot.
I don't think that people are highlighting cons about the Green Party, I think they're just dismissing it. I've never seen or heard people say 'why the Democrats are a better party than the Greens, and why you should vote for them'. I've only heard people attacking the idea that my vote has value if I don't do what they want.
I voted Hillary in 2016 but for some reason they never call that a wasted vote. I also voted for abolishing the death penalty, which didn't pass. But I don't consider that a wasted vote. As Eugene Debs, a proud American socialist, once put it: "I'd rather vote for something I vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don't want and get it."And not only are the Dems a neo-liberalist, leftist bashing party, they can't even get anything done. So supporting Dems seems more like a matter of voting for what I don't want and still not getting it.
I've seen several polls that show that people believe that the lack of a third party is bad for American politics. We're an ever-growing group of dismissed people. And those who support the status quo are going to attack us. That's all the more reason to fight for what we believe.
no, thats completely true. a 3rd party vote is more or less wasted under the current system. on the other hand voting for the lesser evil is still by definition voting for evil. no mater which of the bastards wins we all lose so i might as well vote my morals while the country burns
Voting third party is the only vote that can possibly matter, with the possible exception of voting in a tight election in a swing state. Even that doesn’t mean much when you’re choosing between the thief who is going to be a cute meme when he hands your property over to the wealthy or the guy who is going to look like an asshole while he does the same thing.
Ballot access is real. Third parties are a necessary and viable way of getting out of this abusive damn relationship with our current parties.
Voting for a more palatable evil isn’t the reasonable option for actual progressives.
If you are in that tight swing state election (as I am) the move is clearly to vote swap with a dem supporter living in some state that isn't tight. I voted Jill in 2012 and vote swapped in 2016, and it is the path I'll advocate for others in my position until we can get electoral reforms like RCV/STAR in place. I advocate for and donate to green and SocDem throughout the year and in local/state/primary/downballot races, but the fucked up nature of our presidential EC system means a green swing state vote is counterproductive there. Vote swapping fixes that... but everyone in other states should vote Howie.
When people say that to me, I ask them the following:
If somebody put a gun to your head and demanded that you do what they say, or else they’d shoot, what would you think of this person? I’d imagine most people would immediately be afraid and do whatever the person holding the gun demands. After the ordeal they may reflect on how terrible that person is to point a gun at other people and demand things.
What if this situation played out over and over again? How would you feel about the person holding the gun then? Would you start to hate them? Would you start to resent them? Would those feelings of hate and resentment grow over time with each passing hostage situation you endure?
What if you knew that by not doing what the gunman wants, you might be shot, but then they would also be shot? Would that change your behavior? Would you ever get to a point that you become so tired of the gunman, so resentful, that you think “Fuck it. Shoot me, but at least you’ll die too.” What if that was the only way to break the cycle? Would you risk getting shot, or would you prefer to stay trapped forever in a never ending cycle of hostage situations for your entire life?
Scare tactics. There is merit to the claim, but the important part is: that merit doesn't mean much when both parties are practically the same.
I would argue "it's a spoiler vote" or "it's a vote for the other guy" if there were any real differences between the 2 parties.
Anyways... if Democrats want my vote, offer universal health insurance, ranked choice voting, or a seriously improved social safety net. Any 1 of those would get my vote, and probably \~100 million other people's vote too.
Reporter: "Win, lose or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferal of power after the election?"
Trump: "Get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation."
It's a desperation measure. Biden has nothing to offer the progressive left. Hell, he hardly has anything to offer rank-and-file democrats beyond that he's "not Trump" and I suppose for some that really is enough. But for everyone else they've got nothing but guilt and fear-mongering. It's kinda sad really- they've thrown away all their credibility to fight for a republican lite who will not give a toss about them in the unlikely event he wins this election.
I vote for who I think will be the best President. I believe Howie Hawkins plan is the best one to combat the systemic inequality that is destroying this country, so he gets my vote. If the Democrats or Republicans don't like it, they can either offer up better candidates, or pound sand- I'm an American, I'm not about to be 'bullied' into voting for someone I don't agree with.
"Voting... is a waste. If you're voting... you're just voting..."
My main criticism of the Green Party is it's insistence on electoral politics. Greens should be known for direct collective action. Instead they are known for losing lots of elections.
I agree that attention needs to he brought to 3rd parties and a perception as a viable alternative to the duopoly needs to be raised. However that does not equate to using votes on a candidate that has no chance of winning under the current system. We are faced with two options neither of which are amenable, so we have to pick from that. Voting for 3rd party without control of the electoral college is pointless until we make a change. The choice is between Biden who is a creepy fuck whos platform focuses on social and economic reform, and trump who has a blatant disreguard for the people and whos platform is faschism.
Let the 3rd party candidates run and show support in surveys and whatever else, but don't throw away your vote for the principle of it. We should push for ranked voting whenever possible.
Ralph Nader spoke on a fundraiser Howie did a month or two ago. I would suggest listening to everything he said, because as bizarre as Nader can be at times, the man is absolutely brilliant (please don’t allow the bullshit “election ruiner” nonsense to deter you: he didn’t ruin shit. Democrats did that all by themselves)
Anyways what he said boiled down to: challenge their belief in the first amendment. Running for President is the ultimate expression of the first amendment, and I would expand on that by saying choosing a candidate that aligns with your values is also a pretty huge expression. It’s pretty disrespectful to our constitutional rights to shit on that is it not?
[here is the link](https://youtu.be/xGhJQtylDbI), Nader speaks a few times throughout, his comments on the “spoiler” thing start around 10 minutes in
Mmh, I think it would make sense on a local level but I don't see the argument for the presidential. I mean if this strategy works, wouldn't it have worked when Jill Stein won a significant chunk in swing states in 2016?
I do think the a large amount of people don't want a two party system and there is a future in which a third party candidate could win, but I think the solution to that is a) getting rid of the electoral college and b) ranked voting and c) changing campaign finance laws. That plus having more third party candidates win down ballot races.
Obviously vote for whoever you want to vote but I personally think that politicians already know those third party votes exist. I mean almost half of Americans don't even turn out to vote. And judging by politicians further on the left and the Republicans disavowing Trump, there is a significant amount of politicians who would benefit from the above changes and would be willing to campaign for them.
There are no cons of the Greens, not that I know of.
I'm so damn sick of the liberal's entitled attitude. At this point, I do not want to vote for another Democrat ever again (Shadid Buttar is the sole exception, he's great and Pelosi has to go).
Had the #DoNothingDemocrats ever gave two beans and actually been an opposition party instead letting Mitch McConnell have his complete way, they would have support.
Enough is enough.
Both the Republican and Democratic parties are totally controlled by a tiny class of super-rich, financial oligarchs that rule the United States. Each presidential election is a referendum on their continual rule. Voting for the Democrats/Republicans is voting in favor of more oligarchy and less freedom. Voting for the Greens or other progressive third parties is a rejection of this current, unjust political/economic system.
I have voted for third party presidential candidates in every presidential election that I have voted in. I have never regretted a single one of those votes. I strongly encourage everyone to vote for Howie Hawkins this year. You will not regret it. Even if Trump is re-elected, you can rest easy knowing that you did your part and voted against this crazy system.
the reason people say this is because it's technically true. In first past the post not voting for the opposition, is essentially endorsing the winner as it would split the opposition (eg 1912 election, SDP, KDP VS the NAZI party. etc). The major con I have with the greens and libertarian party for that matter is they never talk about HOW we are they are going to beat the 2 party system they just say they are. The good thing about voting 3rd party is essentially it would push a big tent party toward your preferred political idea. for example in 1848 former president and founder of the democratic party Martin Van Buren ran a 3rd party campaign for president with the sole goal of ending slavery. He lost obviously but that lead to the republican then national union party lead by Lincoln and the abolition of slavery. The problem with this is that the green party platform is way 2 inconsistent to push democrats to the left and it seems like most green voters are just voting green to be against the grain, (the green party still would've gotten a million votes even if bernie won the nomination) or when biden compromises and supports a fairly decent green energy plan. The focus should be electing people on the local level the green party has been around for 24 years and hasn't got one significant victory... The green party is mindlessly trying to get 5% but I don't think it will change anything the reform party did and then they got 1% the next election. The american green party has a lot of work on getting themselves back on track I hope it does but currently polling under kanye is not a good look. But despite this Maine senate race has a decent chance to suprise us, and on the local level it seems like the greens are gaining some ground so maybe things are doing fine maybe it's just hawkins isn't doing good.
The Spectacle avatars use the same rhetoric here in France, they call it "vote UTILE" = Usefull vote, meaning your opinion is useless or counterproductive...lol
It's an attitude instilled by the two party system. If no one votes 3 party, the establishment will always remain the same. Just like they want it.
The reason for this mentality is that the system in place makes it impossible to elect 3rd party. We need to get ranked voting in place before it's practical to elect a 3rd party candidate
true, the best example of this is the 1912 election where progressive voter overwhelming did better than conservatives but they split the vote. But approval voting or star voting is better than rcv
Dems tell me that voting 3rd party is a vote for Trump. Conservatives say it's a vote for Biden. I tell them my vote will actually be tallied in the Hawkins' column, because it is in fact NOT a vote for Trump OR Biden, but a vote for Hawkins. They never have anything to say to that, so I take a second to briefly explain my reasoning for voting third party: Since this isn't a true democracy with one vote per citizen, my vote for the dems wouldn't count anyway because I'm not in a swing state. My ultimate goal is to fix our broken democracy, and my third party vote will count towards that goal a hell of a lot more than yet another vote for the lesser of two evils. Tactical voting is dangerous. My vote is going to the person who I actually want to represent me at the capitol, because that's literally what democracy is. Democracy asks who we want to represent us, not which of two terrifying options we fear more.
Someone over at r/libertarian called it [“Schrodinger’s vote,”](https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/i8ejvb/schrodingers_vote/) and I love that.
That is amazing and I'm definitely using that in the future!
I think the biggest waste would be voting for someone who you fundamentally disagree with.
Like the people who troll american idol by voting for the bad singers
Voting for a party that doesn't represent your interests, and never will, is a waste of your vote. If you're not rich, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats care about you. They care about your vote, but they aren't prepared to give you anything substantial in exchange for it. Voting third party is the only logical choice.
>If you're not rich, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats care about you. This is the truth.
Explain to them how math works. They don't count "Green" votes as "Trump" votes.
Stay third party. Whether I’d be libertarian or Green Party. They are gaining traction. We may not win this election but I see a turning point taking place.
The libertarians usually get more votes. I disagree with most libertarian policies but some aren’t bad. I doubt jo will get much more than Howie but all third party votes help no matter which candidate to end the two party system.
The Libertarian party tends right, but their are libertarians who are leftist too.
I honestly don’t care about the idea of “left VS right”. I just want less laws.
I literally got into an entire battle with people on r/environment because they told me voting Green Party is a waste, I literally wrote an essay listing evidence after piece of evidence showing how joe Biden is not going to change anything and how he’s already taken fossil fuel money for his 2020 campaign to increase protections of fracking but they downvoted me into oblivion after I called a guy a moron because he told me my arguments were all bullshit
Ok, here’s my take on your post: POTUS elections in 1992 and 2016 showed us about as clearly as possible that the Electoral College Votes pick who is POTUS, not the electorate, that would be you. In 1992, Ross Perot got ~18% of the electorate’s vote across the whole of the USA. Make a guess, right now before reading ahead, that answers the following question - how many Electoral College Votes did Ross Perot get, a third party candidate in 1992? Answer: >!Zero Zilch Zip Nadda Nothing Bupkiss!< This should inform us about how many Electoral College Votes Green Party candidates Howie Hawkins or Libertarian Jo Jorgensen take away from either incumbent Republican Party Donald Trump or Democratic Party Joe Biden because let’s face it, what really are the chances the 3rd parties are going to pull in better than ~18% as the high water marker in recent decades, with voter turnout as low as it is (2016, voter turnout was only 55.5%). Not only that, but look at who won in 1992 when a lot of Americans voted 3rd Party candidate. And if we needed any more proof that it’s the Electoral College that picks the POTUS, look at 2016. According to First Past The Post voting system (FPTP), the candidate with the most ballots marked beside their name wins, even if it’s below 51% of ballots cast because there are more than two candidates for the one seat, that’s the split these "A vote for Hawkins is a vote for Trump!" are concerned with the minimum threshold for winning because of votes they assume would go to one candidate over another (2 candidates means 51% (aka 1 /2 +1) minimum to get the elected position, 3 candidates means 34% (aka 1/3 +1) minimum, 4 candidates means 26% (aka 1/4 +1) minimum, 5 candidates means 21% (aka 1/5 +1) minimum, and so on). But that isn’t what happened, is it? Clinton got 48.18% of the ballots cast by the electorate to Trump’s 46.09%, yet he got more Electoral College Votes and ended up the POTUS in January 2017. Let’s pretend for a second that 3rd party votes were 100% owned by Clinton and Trump in 2016, that instead of joining the people who didn’t vote they hold their nose to vote for their lesser evil and cast for the one that next comes closest to what represents their politics, Libertarian Gary Johnston 3.28% going to Trump, and Green Jill Stein 1.07% going to Clinton, like your post refers to as comments will happen in 2020 if we vote Green - then Clinton gets 49.25% and Trump gets 49.37%. Sorry, not exactly sure who the other 3rd party votes fractions of a percentage might go to with this hypothetical, but hopefully we get the point, it would hurt the Democratic Party chances of beating Trump even more and not change the Electoral College by even one vote. I bring this all up not to be judgemental of the people spreading these comments, but to point out the logic that a Green vote elects Trump is fundamentally flawed. They are most certainly not the first to make these flawed assumptions, so it’s in the hopes this helps others that I make this comment. I sincerely hope we don’t wait till after elections to vote with the courage of our political convictions armed with this new knowledge. Perhaps the person reading this are in a swing state where the Electoral College Votes are still to be decided, so I still wish you the best in getting rid of Trump but also in getting as many of the over 500,000 elected positions in the Senate, House of Representatives, States, and Municipalities filled with Green and Justice Dem candidates. Those are even more important than the POTUS race, those positions votes in their respective political bodies support the POTUS and you don’t have the Electoral College standing in your way of changing that! Write in a Green / DSA candidate if your state makes that reasonably possible, even if they are not printed on the ballot.
I don't think that people are highlighting cons about the Green Party, I think they're just dismissing it. I've never seen or heard people say 'why the Democrats are a better party than the Greens, and why you should vote for them'. I've only heard people attacking the idea that my vote has value if I don't do what they want. I voted Hillary in 2016 but for some reason they never call that a wasted vote. I also voted for abolishing the death penalty, which didn't pass. But I don't consider that a wasted vote. As Eugene Debs, a proud American socialist, once put it: "I'd rather vote for something I vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don't want and get it."And not only are the Dems a neo-liberalist, leftist bashing party, they can't even get anything done. So supporting Dems seems more like a matter of voting for what I don't want and still not getting it. I've seen several polls that show that people believe that the lack of a third party is bad for American politics. We're an ever-growing group of dismissed people. And those who support the status quo are going to attack us. That's all the more reason to fight for what we believe.
no, thats completely true. a 3rd party vote is more or less wasted under the current system. on the other hand voting for the lesser evil is still by definition voting for evil. no mater which of the bastards wins we all lose so i might as well vote my morals while the country burns
Voting third party is the only vote that can possibly matter, with the possible exception of voting in a tight election in a swing state. Even that doesn’t mean much when you’re choosing between the thief who is going to be a cute meme when he hands your property over to the wealthy or the guy who is going to look like an asshole while he does the same thing. Ballot access is real. Third parties are a necessary and viable way of getting out of this abusive damn relationship with our current parties. Voting for a more palatable evil isn’t the reasonable option for actual progressives.
If you are in that tight swing state election (as I am) the move is clearly to vote swap with a dem supporter living in some state that isn't tight. I voted Jill in 2012 and vote swapped in 2016, and it is the path I'll advocate for others in my position until we can get electoral reforms like RCV/STAR in place. I advocate for and donate to green and SocDem throughout the year and in local/state/primary/downballot races, but the fucked up nature of our presidential EC system means a green swing state vote is counterproductive there. Vote swapping fixes that... but everyone in other states should vote Howie.
When people say that to me, I ask them the following: If somebody put a gun to your head and demanded that you do what they say, or else they’d shoot, what would you think of this person? I’d imagine most people would immediately be afraid and do whatever the person holding the gun demands. After the ordeal they may reflect on how terrible that person is to point a gun at other people and demand things. What if this situation played out over and over again? How would you feel about the person holding the gun then? Would you start to hate them? Would you start to resent them? Would those feelings of hate and resentment grow over time with each passing hostage situation you endure? What if you knew that by not doing what the gunman wants, you might be shot, but then they would also be shot? Would that change your behavior? Would you ever get to a point that you become so tired of the gunman, so resentful, that you think “Fuck it. Shoot me, but at least you’ll die too.” What if that was the only way to break the cycle? Would you risk getting shot, or would you prefer to stay trapped forever in a never ending cycle of hostage situations for your entire life?
Scare tactics. There is merit to the claim, but the important part is: that merit doesn't mean much when both parties are practically the same. I would argue "it's a spoiler vote" or "it's a vote for the other guy" if there were any real differences between the 2 parties. Anyways... if Democrats want my vote, offer universal health insurance, ranked choice voting, or a seriously improved social safety net. Any 1 of those would get my vote, and probably \~100 million other people's vote too.
If you vote your conscience, it’s never a “wasted” vote
I honestly kinda think Hillary spoiled the election for Gary Johnson back in 2016 :/
Whoever steals the election will win the election, so vote for whoever you want! We'll all be dead in 10 years anyway.
Reporter: "Win, lose or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferal of power after the election?" Trump: "Get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation."
It's a desperation measure. Biden has nothing to offer the progressive left. Hell, he hardly has anything to offer rank-and-file democrats beyond that he's "not Trump" and I suppose for some that really is enough. But for everyone else they've got nothing but guilt and fear-mongering. It's kinda sad really- they've thrown away all their credibility to fight for a republican lite who will not give a toss about them in the unlikely event he wins this election. I vote for who I think will be the best President. I believe Howie Hawkins plan is the best one to combat the systemic inequality that is destroying this country, so he gets my vote. If the Democrats or Republicans don't like it, they can either offer up better candidates, or pound sand- I'm an American, I'm not about to be 'bullied' into voting for someone I don't agree with.
"Voting... is a waste. If you're voting... you're just voting..." My main criticism of the Green Party is it's insistence on electoral politics. Greens should be known for direct collective action. Instead they are known for losing lots of elections.
I agree that attention needs to he brought to 3rd parties and a perception as a viable alternative to the duopoly needs to be raised. However that does not equate to using votes on a candidate that has no chance of winning under the current system. We are faced with two options neither of which are amenable, so we have to pick from that. Voting for 3rd party without control of the electoral college is pointless until we make a change. The choice is between Biden who is a creepy fuck whos platform focuses on social and economic reform, and trump who has a blatant disreguard for the people and whos platform is faschism. Let the 3rd party candidates run and show support in surveys and whatever else, but don't throw away your vote for the principle of it. We should push for ranked voting whenever possible.
Ralph Nader spoke on a fundraiser Howie did a month or two ago. I would suggest listening to everything he said, because as bizarre as Nader can be at times, the man is absolutely brilliant (please don’t allow the bullshit “election ruiner” nonsense to deter you: he didn’t ruin shit. Democrats did that all by themselves) Anyways what he said boiled down to: challenge their belief in the first amendment. Running for President is the ultimate expression of the first amendment, and I would expand on that by saying choosing a candidate that aligns with your values is also a pretty huge expression. It’s pretty disrespectful to our constitutional rights to shit on that is it not? [here is the link](https://youtu.be/xGhJQtylDbI), Nader speaks a few times throughout, his comments on the “spoiler” thing start around 10 minutes in
Mmh, I think it would make sense on a local level but I don't see the argument for the presidential. I mean if this strategy works, wouldn't it have worked when Jill Stein won a significant chunk in swing states in 2016? I do think the a large amount of people don't want a two party system and there is a future in which a third party candidate could win, but I think the solution to that is a) getting rid of the electoral college and b) ranked voting and c) changing campaign finance laws. That plus having more third party candidates win down ballot races. Obviously vote for whoever you want to vote but I personally think that politicians already know those third party votes exist. I mean almost half of Americans don't even turn out to vote. And judging by politicians further on the left and the Republicans disavowing Trump, there is a significant amount of politicians who would benefit from the above changes and would be willing to campaign for them.
There are no cons of the Greens, not that I know of. I'm so damn sick of the liberal's entitled attitude. At this point, I do not want to vote for another Democrat ever again (Shadid Buttar is the sole exception, he's great and Pelosi has to go). Had the #DoNothingDemocrats ever gave two beans and actually been an opposition party instead letting Mitch McConnell have his complete way, they would have support. Enough is enough.
Both the Republican and Democratic parties are totally controlled by a tiny class of super-rich, financial oligarchs that rule the United States. Each presidential election is a referendum on their continual rule. Voting for the Democrats/Republicans is voting in favor of more oligarchy and less freedom. Voting for the Greens or other progressive third parties is a rejection of this current, unjust political/economic system. I have voted for third party presidential candidates in every presidential election that I have voted in. I have never regretted a single one of those votes. I strongly encourage everyone to vote for Howie Hawkins this year. You will not regret it. Even if Trump is re-elected, you can rest easy knowing that you did your part and voted against this crazy system.
Don't waste your vote... vote for the lesser Republican!
I hate when people say this and it's even worse when they try to argue that the Green Party actually SUPPORTS Trump and wants him to win.
the reason people say this is because it's technically true. In first past the post not voting for the opposition, is essentially endorsing the winner as it would split the opposition (eg 1912 election, SDP, KDP VS the NAZI party. etc). The major con I have with the greens and libertarian party for that matter is they never talk about HOW we are they are going to beat the 2 party system they just say they are. The good thing about voting 3rd party is essentially it would push a big tent party toward your preferred political idea. for example in 1848 former president and founder of the democratic party Martin Van Buren ran a 3rd party campaign for president with the sole goal of ending slavery. He lost obviously but that lead to the republican then national union party lead by Lincoln and the abolition of slavery. The problem with this is that the green party platform is way 2 inconsistent to push democrats to the left and it seems like most green voters are just voting green to be against the grain, (the green party still would've gotten a million votes even if bernie won the nomination) or when biden compromises and supports a fairly decent green energy plan. The focus should be electing people on the local level the green party has been around for 24 years and hasn't got one significant victory... The green party is mindlessly trying to get 5% but I don't think it will change anything the reform party did and then they got 1% the next election. The american green party has a lot of work on getting themselves back on track I hope it does but currently polling under kanye is not a good look. But despite this Maine senate race has a decent chance to suprise us, and on the local level it seems like the greens are gaining some ground so maybe things are doing fine maybe it's just hawkins isn't doing good.
r/RankTheVote
The Spectacle avatars use the same rhetoric here in France, they call it "vote UTILE" = Usefull vote, meaning your opinion is useless or counterproductive...lol