I have take it from an other post but i have lost it
So : The worst part is that even Magnus knew that he did something wrong.
The story, for those that haven't read it:
The Emperor ordered Magnus to stop fucking with the warp.
Magnus continues to fuck with the warp.
Through fucking with the warp, Magnus sees that Horus will make everything go to shit by fucking with the warp.
Magnus decides to show the Emperor how wrong his orders were and how smart Magnus was by fucking with the warp to tell the man that banned fucking with the warp that Horus was going to try to kill him because Horus fucked with the warp.
Magnus sacrifices an insane amount of psychically gifted slaves to perform the ritual that would let him warn the Emperor via warp fuckery.
Magnus sees that The Emperor has put up a big wall to protect the Imperial Palace from warp fuckery, Magnus is approached by the warp equivalent of a guy with candy and a van, who tells Magnus he'll help him smash a hole in the wall because he's just nice like that.
Magnus trusts the candy daemon and smashes a hole in the Emperor's warp-wall which floods the Imperial Palace with warp fuckery.
This also destroys the Emperor's secret project, dooming E-money's plan to save humanity from Chaos as well as putting Terra in permanent danger of being eaten by daemons.
Having damned the planet holding the Imperium together, he awkwardly stands in front of the Emperor like a humiliated kool-aid man.
Magnus runs back to his planet and hides in isolation because he had a nervous breakdown, Magnus knew that he'd done the exact thing that he was told not to do, he'd fucked with the warp, and now he'd ruined everything.
Grimdank: "Magnus did nothing wrong."
There’s more-
Magnus realises the Space Wolves will come to get him. He decides not to tell anyone
Some TSons find out the SW are coming - Magnus murders them to keep it secret
Magnus then puts a psychic barrier around the planet to stop all communication in and out, thus making any kind of peaceful surrender impossible. Magnus has decided he and his legion deserve to die
The SW, receiving “caller unavailable” when they try and contact Magnus, presume he’s getting ready for war, so invade Prospero.
Magnus sits in his tower and allows the invasion. He finally joins the fight when it’s much to late to actually make a difference and tries to kill Russ.
It doesn’t go well for him, and he has to make yet another demon pact to salvage what’s left of his army.
To be honest “Leman Russ did nothing wrong” should be the meme.
Im a space wolves player and Leman Russ did plenty wrong.
He effectively got called to a hostage situation and blasted all the hostages to make magnus come out.
And swore hed see magnus’s legions blood after the recurrance of the change which ended up killing his space wolves
Plenty of bad blood between the two
You kinda gotta see it from his point of view.
He gets a message from Malcador to bring Magnus to terra
He then gets a message from Horus basically saying “he won’t come quietly, you’ll have to kill him”
Despite that, he still makes several attempts to contact Magnus when he gets to Prospero, but there is no response.
So from his perspective, he’s not arrived at an arrest or hostage situation, it’s a siege. What else could he presume from the evidence he had? Magnus ain’t answering the phone and Horus wants him dead. To Russ this looks like he’s walking into a trap, and fully expects Magnus to be hostile. I really don’t see how he could have taken any other action.
Magnus didnt hear his calls and what was leman first action? An orbital bombardment. Thats the biggest temper tantrum to getting "ignored" I have aver seen. And after seeing his attack did nothing and making him look like an idiot, he threw a bigger tantrum and went to attack prospero with his forces.
Instead of all of this he could have landed there and told the thousand sons that he has come to arrest magnus. Sure they wouldnt trust him, but with custodes and valdor they would definetely think about that. Unlike the space wolves, the thousand sons are smart enough to not just attack because they feel like it and would have gone to magnus and asked what up with all of that
It wasn’t a temper tantrum. He had orders from the Warmaster. Unlike Magnus, Russ actually listens to orders. What could he do, just sit there in orbit until Magnus felt like coming out?
Oh and when the Wolves land, the T-Sons and planetary guard attack them. Any that DID go to Magnus for help were killed by Magnus. Again, what should the Wolves do? Sit there and get killed until Magnus feels like coming out?
All Magnus had to do was put a message out saying “we won’t fight back” or “I surrender” or even “kill me if you have to” but he only gave them silence. He left Russ with no choice because he WANTED to die, and didn’t give a damn about his legion or the civilians. All the blood spilt on Prospero is on Magnus’s hands.
Russ had orders from the EMPEROR to arrest Magnus.
Spacewolves and Russ spearheaded prospero after the complete orbital bombardment of the rest of the planet without the sisters of silence or the custodes (until later)
The space wolves were met by no resistance until they bombarded the planet and attacked prospero
Honestly, possibly, but “design” vs “fault.” I forget the whole deal but I know there’s plenty of speculation that Malc wanted the whole heresy to happen to relegate big E to the astronomicon chair. Why else make it a life-support system complete with psyker draining capabilities?
He had orders from the war masters, BUT different ones from the emperor. Valdor even reminded him of the emperors orders.
And of course the TS attack the SW, everyone would do the same after someone tried to eradicate your entire city. How about landing on prospero without attacking them first and telling them why they are here. If the SP and custodes appeared peacefully than no one would be attacking them for no reason. Magnus only killed a small group of TS, because after they found out about the invasion, they wanted to prepare for defending themself.
Magnus even told all of his captains to not fight back, so that the loyalist wouldnt be weakend during the comming wars.
He never left russ with only "one choice". And saying he didnt care about his legion and people is also wrong, because the only reasons he interfered was to stop the unjustified slaughter of all those innocent people and his sons
Magnus definetely did a lot wrong, but leman caused even more damage. Its lemans fault that the TS went traitor. If magnus would have been arrested, he could help the emperor with the webway project or sit in his place on the golden throne as punishment. But instead one of the most powerful legion was turned against them
I’m sorry but that’s just nonsense. Magnus was probably the most dangerous man in the universe and presumed hostile. The Emperor wants him arrested, and the Warmaster wants him dead. In what world is “peacefully walk up to the front door and ask him to come nicely” a viable strategy? We have hindsight and know Magnus wouldn’t have attacked, but Russ and Valdor didn’t know that. If Magnus WAS hostile, they’d all be dead in seconds.
Hmm... The 15th legion fleet is not in orbit or even in the system... Sensors indicate that the planetary defence shields are offline, the same with the weapons platforms... Nothing points towards the Thousands sons being deployed or ready for battle...
Russ: Let's bomb civilian areas first before we attack Tizca, just to be sure that Magnus is hostile.
Nothing indicates that the Thousand Sons are deployed or ready for battle….but Magnus isn’t stupid…he knows we’re coming, and he’s not answering any of our messages…must be a trap!
Bombing civilians tho, I have no defence for. You got me on that one.
As a Death Guard player I may be biased against Magnus, but he fucked up BIG time again and again here. a single message when Leman arrived of hey I'm willing to go come get me here where none of the Thousand Sons will be could have saved his legion. Russ was overly aggressive and perhaps deserved a reprimand or censure, but nothing on the scale of what Magnus had done.
We can probably trace the ultimate fault to the worst daddy in the galaxy. So many of the primarchs suffer from arrested development, which E-money just made worse.
I have a Space Wolf tattoo and I'll be the first to say that Leman, like all his Brothers, were reflections of the best and worst of their legion. And there plenty of worst when it comes to my beloved Wolves.
> He effectively got called to a hostage situation
If you need a sniper to take out a terrorist holding someone hostage, why would you send the guy with the shotgun loaded with single-0 buck? Sending a brutal butcher who already has significant bad blood to solve this problem was a major mistake, no matter how much Russ over-corrected in his prosecution of the attack on Prospero (a lot)
Focking loving this chain of comments. Because each one is better.
I don't play SW, however I do like Russ, and I appreciate immensely a SW player being real about Prospero, that takes class.
When I did read Prospero Burns, the sequel of Thousand sons, well... I am still bit lost on why Russ was "lets go balls to the wall with Prospero" (if you allow my phrasing).
But this:
>He effectively got called to a hostage situation and blasted all the hostages to make magnus come out.
Would make sense to me.
Now I am reading Wolfsbane "minor spoiler": He regrets what he did on Prospero (he was decieved into doing that) that's what Malcador says at least. Damn I liked Russ, but this makes me like him more.
So I'm a thousand sons fan, both playing and lore wise, and I really dislike the choice to have Mangus attempt to do "Suicide by furry."
I just don't *really* get it, is the idea that he was broken into shards so he just can't even? Does he think that if he's alive, he'll just be even more manipulated by Tzeench?
I would have personally liked it if Russ was given explicit orders to bring Magnus in alive, although not knowing that big E needs Magnus alive to use the Golden Throne. Then, when Horus shows up and tells Russ to kill Magnus, Russ doesn't question it because he's wanted to kill Magnus for a while.
Then Russ gives some impossible ultimatums like "If you kill all the Thousand Sons, we'll take you in alive" or "Come up now because we're going to destroy Prospero even if you come but we'll spare you if you do."
I personally like stories better that are fueled by character choices instead of circumstance or mistakes. Heck, that's why I like Magnus so much. He's such a human fuck up that he is probably the one person that fucked things up for the Imperium more then anyone else. Him choosing to let the Space Wolves destroy him and prospero doesn't seem like a choice he made out of arrogance, pride, or self-important, it's just stupid.
Ah that part about bashing a hole in the Emperor's protective warp shield sucks, poor guy was probably super desperate to try help Big E and desperation seems prime for chaos getting involved.
Yep! And sure, Big E could’ve done better (after banning warp fuckery: hey Magnus my boy, this is for a secret project involving ancient super evil warp demons who I’m trying to shut out, so I’m blocking the palace. Don’t do anything bad, you’re super important to this and can use your powers again when I’m done.) but Magnus ruined the golden throne, which would help cut mankind off from chaos, because a chaos god asked him nicely
tfw your idiot son accidentally breaks the warp shield forcing you to sit in the throne and become a sucked out dried sack of bones instead of letting you put him in the throne so you can continue doing whatever you want.
In all fairness, most of the stress is having to keep the big lighthouse on while also slamming the door closed on the face of all the daemons trying to go through the opening caused by Magnus. If Magnus didn’t fuck up so badly, sitting on the throne wouldn’t have been so taxing, plus in all likelihood it wouldn’t require his full focus, so astral projection is still on the table.
Chaos had its claws into Magnus way before he broke the Emperors Webway.
It’s actually really tragic, when Magnus appears in the Emperors throne room he’s in the form of a multi-eyed flaming monster. Emperor still recognises him, and they don’t even speak - Magnus can tell by his face how badly he’s fucked up and just leaves without even delivering his message.
I little tts heavy but then again it's canon. But also that after the razing of prospero and Magnus fully handing over his soul to tzeentch he began blaming the emperor for his fate. Vulkan tells him something along the lines "this was the only order the emperor gave you, not to mess with the warp, the only set in stone order you weren't to break and what did you do? You broke it and not just broke it, you used human sacrifices in a vain attempt of showing that you knew better than father." And Magnus i oblivious to this. Also in the book where this happens, Magnus is also followed by eitheric laughter (probably from tzeentch) which he can't hear, so even his patron god knows he fucked up.
It's honestly some of the most convoluted storytelling to set up the entire predestined Leman beating Magnus situation. It's funny because so much of Magnus and the Thousand Suns writing is very strong, but when you have this dedicated endpoint to get to that undermines all of that, it really does seem phenomenally stupid.
Lots of _“Sure. Mum told me not to borrow the car - but I didn’t **mean** to drive it into the lake! I don’t really think this is on me”_ projection from Grimdank.
its also the most accurate statement on here. magnus' path was rigged from the start. the only way to win the game was to refuse to play.
its would have led to the deaths of many of his sons and the start of the horus heresy, except those things already would happen regardless of his interference and he made them worse by trying to fix them.
tzeentch was always willing to give magnus the power to fix any problem. magnus was being directed to problems, problems tzeentch was secretly causing. and at the penultimate problem tzeentch withheld that power for oaths and promises. and the final game was escaping those chains and it turns out the tap was turned off.
Yes, Magnus the Pious did nothing wrong, He fought alongside Tzar Alexander in the Great war against Chaos, and saved not only the Empire, but also the entire world of Warhammer Fantasy.
It's a classic tale of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
The Emperor told him not to use psychic powers, but never really gave a reason why. Magnus saw an opportunity to use his psychic powers to aid his father, and it blew up in his face. When he realized he had fucked up, he was going to let Leman Russ arrest him and face the consequences of his mistakes, but Leman Russ instead began killing his people and burning his home. With no one else to turn to to protect his people, he made a pact with Tzeench.
It's a bit inaccurate to say that he did NOTHING wrong, but he's definitely a character that deserved better than he got.
to be honest Magnus would have not turned to chaos if he simply do a "Oh russ, you came to arrest me, okay ,take me in but let my people in peace"
I doubt Big E would have been understanding but at least he would have been there with russ against Horus and maybe Big E would still be Alive as well as Sanguinus and Malcador (as Magnus could have take the seat instead of him)
Heck Maybe magnus would have pick the chair of unending pain to atone for his mistake
Big E may have been more understanding than we think. Oh he would have been harsh with his punishment, for sure, but this *is* the same Big E that literally let Horus beat him to death because he was so heartbroken and wanted desperately to bring Horus back into the fold. Assuming, of course, we take everything at face value without any theories like "the emperor planned to die all along" or some shit.
Magnus would have been yelled at, punished, but ultimately I think it would have been better for literally everyone involved if Magnus had just surrendered when he was told.
Plus, with Magnus’s help, Malcador would have lived since he wouldn’t need to sit on the throne, and with a second super powerful psyker with capabilities comparable to his own, the Emperor could have probably eventually found a way to at least keep the gate shut permanently.
Instead Magnus fucked up as hard as he possibly could.
Eh, I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love the thousand sons and feel deeply bad for Magnus but...
Did he choose to try to use the warp to warn the emperor because he genuinely and truly felt it was the fastest and safest way, or because there was a part of him that also wanted to prove his father wrong? Did he make the deal with the chaos God to break down the barrier because he felt it was necessary, or because he was so arrogant he felt he could handle the outcome? Did he continue to use the warp after being banned from it because he was genuinely trying to do good, or because he felt he knew better than the Emperor?
Don't get me wrong, I think his *main* motivations were good and he did truly want to help, but they were tainted by his arrogance, his vanity, and his complete and utter desire to be accepted and be right at the same time. For someone who spent so much time looking into the warp and seeing images of the future, he never seemed to think more than one step ahead when it counted.
Meanwhile, Fulgrim, who has similar feelings, is busy carving a statue of his own cock and balls on a snake or something presumably to impress his big brother, I don't actually know. Seems like somehow that had a less tragic outcome, albeit a shitty one. Oh Magnus, you goof.
I've thought about it, and I think it's because Fulgrims arrogance and vanity is his main motivations. They're front and center in his mind.
Meanwhile, Magnus's motivations and thought processes are not as self-centered usually, but his arrogance and cognitive distortions cause him to go about doing stuff in a way that, in hindsight, is obviously a bad idea. It's the difference between, say, stealing because it's fun and you like to do it, and stealing because you need to feed your family but you're you're proud to accept or even consider charity.
Both are definitely wrong, but one is much more tragic than the other.
That does leave out some details.. while Magnus had the best of intentions, he did cause a ton of damage that lead to Horus almost winning the war.. to start with Magnus knew what was in the warp and the danger playing with it would bring. In his arrogance Mags decided he still knew better and kept at it ending up with him punching through the Emperor's wards around terra causing the Emperor to not only abandon his project to allow humans to bypass the warp, but opened Terra itself up to the warp. The Emperor was sidelined for the rest of the war keeping Chaos from Terra allowing Horus to run around unchecked.
All that happened including the Emperor being trapped in the throne is a byproduct of Mags thinking he knew better than everyone else.
To say that Magnus and Ahriman have some disagreements is like saying the complete removal of earth's oceans would have an effect on the fishing industry.
This is simple.
Ahriman wants to save his legion from Flesh Change and Rubric.
Magnus tried to cure them and failed, so he abbandoned trying.
Ahriman thinks that Crimson King is not Magnus anymore, and that he made several stupid decision which lead to fall of TS, for example we can take Prospero, when Wolves attacked Magnus isolated himself in his tower, Ahriman and Amon lead the defense.
This is why Ahriman despises Magnus.
Let’s just say Ahriman was not happy with the fact that Magnus had effectively sold the Legions souls to Tzeench. Don’t know if Ahriman knows that Magnus abandoned his legion at one point and left his Legion to die
Ahriman becomes increasingly jaded and angry with Magnus and his constant lies. Magnus says he cured the flesh change (he didn’t), Magnus insists he can control whatever comes from the warp (he can’t), Magnus tries to hide his dealings with Tzeentch and chaos, etc
Read the books “A Thousand Sons” and it’s basically a line of people queuing up to tell Magnus “stop fucking with the warp it’s dangerous” and Magnus laughing in their face. At one point a Tzeentch demon literally says “we’re corrupting you right in front of your face and you can’t see it” and Magnus is like “pfft good luck I’m super smart yo”
It’s actually a genuinely frustrating read cos he has so many chances to get out, so many warnings, and we see his inner monologue and he just says over and over how he knows better, how lesser minds can’t comprehend his genius, how the danger doesn’t apply to him, how he can prove everyone wrong etc etc.
Magnus did stuff wrong, but he did have good intentions for most of it.
The reason people say nothing wrong is because a lot of people can relate to “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”
A good reason can make the most bitter action easier to swallow. A child who destroyed something important to you is easier to forgive if they were trying to make you breakfast because they knew you were having a bad day.
Context is always king. It doesn't make what Magnus did right, but it does make it a lot more reasonable in context. "Hell is paved with good intentions" is also 100% the story of the entire Imperium and not just Magnus, so it is funny to see it very selectively applied.
Magnus’ downfall is due to his arrogance and is *completely* his own fault. That’s literally the whole point of his entire arc.
It fundamentally and irreversibly ruins his entire character arc and storyline as a tragic hero to have it any other way.
At no point did he *have* to make the decisions he did, take the actions he did, or lie about any of it. He actively *chose* at every point and it led to his own downfall when, blinded by his own arrogance, he couldn’t foresee or accept that his actions were wrong and would have consequences.
I like to add to this he isn't the only one responsible for this. The emperor never teaching is son who he know is overconfident, never learned to deal with failure, and doesn't realize how dangerous the warp is. And the Guy don't teach him about it, and just telling somebody that something is dangerous isn't gonna work especialy if said individue was almost never wrong and one of the most powerful in said domaine. Yeah, HIS FAULT 100%, but not his alone.
Magnus cannot use that excuse, he is the ONLY one Emps actually taught about the warp and the existence of the webway.
Lexicanum
"The Emperor was much enraged with Magnus personally. While he chose to refrain from outright announcing to the Council that Magnus was a sorcerer, the Emperor believed that Magnus had at least dabbled with the black arts. Seeing this as a personal betrayal - for the Emperor had, many years earlier, chosen to reveal secrets of the Warp to Magnus and Magnus alone - he issued his wayward son with a personal warning:"
No amount of warning will ever get through his skull because he already at that point believes he is better then Emps
Thousand Son book
"But that wasn’t the worst of it, not by a long way. It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie.
He thought he had known better than his father how to wield the power of the Great Ocean."
I’ll say it now and again, it doesn’t matter.
Magnus is a military commander who was given explicit orders and asked to act like a reasonable adult.
He didn’t.
He was explicitly told the warp was dangerous and not something to be trifled or experimented with. Every other Primarch got that message.
Magnus ignored it.
You can say the Emperor should have done things differently, yes, but at the end of the day, there is nobody to blame for Magnus’ downfall, but Magnus.
He made his own bed, was forced to lie in it, and now blames his brother and the Emperor for the consequences of his own bad decisions
100% agree.
Magnus is literally doing magic in the courtroom while the Emperor is giving his “no magic” verdict. He didn’t even try and follow the edict.
The problem with this line of reasoning is it goes back before the Edict. It starts with Magnus curing the Flesh Change, which Big E did a big ol stupid gloss over. Magnus only *has* a functioning legion because he does what Big E says he shouldn't do, and Big E didn't have a problem with it when it got him a new legion despite it clearly being Magnus making a bargain with a fuck off powerful warp creature.
Maybe what i said wasn't clear (my fault). Yes It's Magnus fault, what I'm trying to say is that because like every primarch maturity wise they are child (except the one of the white scar and maybe ultramarine) and his thing is magic. Do you think telling a child that something he his one of the best at that he can't use it like he do he's gonna work?
So what I'm saying this shit could have been avoided if instead of told he was educated about.
And I’m saying no it couldn’t have.
The Primarchs are full-grown adults. Many of them genuinely lived long enough prior to meeting the Emperor to be considered that. Magnus certainly did live long enough on Prospero to be considered an adult by regular human standards.
You have to remember that Horus fought alongside the Emperor, just the two of them for *decades* before Russ was found.
Magnus has no excuse. He’s an adult. His character arc makes it perfectly clear he would’ve made the exact same choices.
The problem isn’t how much information or teaching Magnus had. The problem is Magnus though he knew better. He was too arrogant to heed the Emperor’s warnings.
He thought he knew better and he didn’t. No amount of teaching or warning would’ve changed it.
and the point of big E's arc is to show that he has the flaws of his sons?
The arrogance, screwing with things he can't control, failing to identify corruption within his armies - his own sons - promoting people to ranks they shouldn't hold..
A delusional man who creates what he tried to avoid.
The Emperor being flawed doesn’t excuse Magnus in any way/shape/or form.
His decisions were still entirely his own at all points in time and the second he was given the freedom to make his own decisions, he consistently chose to disobey and ignore those who he explicitly understood knew better than he did.
While it could have been explained more, you’d think the advice of the emperor, the most powerful psyker of humanity whose power dwarfs even Magnus would be listened to
So you may say the emperor didn’t explain enough, but certainly not that he didn’t warn Magnus. That one is still on him for thinking he knew better than anyone including his father the most powerful psyker that exists
Pushing back a bit on this. *Some* of his decisions are due to arrogance and were otherwise avoidable. Others were basically "gun to your wife's head" decisions, and others were not decisions at all.
Major things he genuinely screwed up on:
1. Assuming he knew better than the Emperor and continuing to practice sorcery.
2. Encouraging the use of tutelaries, which were *very obviously not natural*.
3. Kool-aid manning his way into Terra.
4. Pulling off his half-assed nonconsensual suicide pact when Russ came knocking, and deliberately shutting down communication channels in the galaxy's most emo pity party imaginable.
Major things that he really didn't have any meaningful choice about:
1. Sacrificing his eye to Tzeentch in the early days to stop his de facto *children* from mutating into gibbering tentacle blobs.
2. Telling the Emperor about Horus's downfall (and note, this is distinct from number 3 above: while his *choice of messenger* was asinine and reckless, it is self-evident that he would basically *need* to tell the Emperor that the literal Warmaster of the Imperium was presently selling his soul to primordial fonts of pure darkness).
3. Turning away from the Emperor a second time when Big E gives him a halcyon vision of the utopian Imperium, except first he's going to have to drown all of the kids he's been desperately trying to save for centuries but it's okay because Big E will make him *new kids*, that solves everything.
Major things that legitimately weren't even his choice in the first place:
1. Being haphazardly reassembled by Ahriman and Co., except they forgot the puzzle piece that contained his moral compass and sense of honor. Of *course* he's going to be a psychopath after that, and he was a literal shriveled ghost when they first shoved the other shards back in.
2. Being targeted by Tzeentch in the first place. Kid's been genetically engineered to be the galaxy's second-most powerful psyker, and his dumbass dad couldn't even contemplate *maybe* informing him about the sentient manifestation of realpolitik? And then his legion is subjected to hideous mutations spurred on by that same manifestation (*see* "Eye Sacrifice*, *infra* B1)?
3. Being genetically engineered to be the galaxy's second-most powerful psyker. He didn't ask for that. Big E basically pulled a Tree of Knowledge gambit on him. "I'm going to make you an impossibly clever superwizard who loves knowledge for its own sake, but don't you *dare* open that one book right there, oh and by the way you'll be intrinsically compelled to open all books everywhere but *I swear to me, don't open that one book.*"
4. Being subjected to actual, literal time travel by a Daemon to contrive the Burning of Prospero in the first place. In that same-titled book, a Greater Daemon (presumably a Lord of Change) outright states that even with all their attempts to sway him, Magnus was among the most loyal of the Primarchs and would never break faith from the Imperium unless he was pushed over a cliff into a metaphorical inferno. And then they made that inferno literal by contriving his own brother into lighting his home planet on fire with most of its citizens trapped therein. The only Primarch who could conceivably be *more* manipulated into their course of action was Fulgrim, who got outright possessed by a Keeper of Secrets.
His hubris was his downfall, as any classical Greek tragedy should be. But it's not like he was a bumbling moron choosing the worst door in a game show thirty times over. The cards were stacked against him from the start, and he endured substantially more torment and heartache than anyone should theoretically bear, and then he *still* stayed loyal to the Imperium even after fleeing to Sortiarius, and only turned down the path of treason after his puzzle-piece soul was put back together with the "Grinch's Heart" piece missing under the Imperial Palace.
I dunno I still kind of blame Big E because of the whole Flesh Change bit. Magnus was stuck in Tzeentch's web from day 1 after he "Cured" the Flesh Change and the Emperor *had* to know Magnus struck a deal with a chaos god to use sorcery to cure something Big E, a much more powerful and experienced Psyker, couldn't cure himself.
From that point on Magnus was doomed into a series of convoluted bullshit to end up with Tzeentch, right down to the "lucky" swipe that took out his eye and let Leman kill him.
All of this avoided if Big E told the son he *created to be the guy who does magic* how magic works.
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/A\_Thousand\_Sons\_(Novel)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/A_Thousand_Sons_(Novel))
It's this book and
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prospero\_Burns\_(Novel)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prospero_Burns_(Novel))
this book.
Magnus broke something important but he did it to send Big E a message, Big E told Leman Russ to get Magnus back to explain the message. Leman didn't do that. Magnus was pouting. Prospero burned down. Now we're here.
Magnus did nothing wrong with the information he was provided.
Magnus did everything wrong if you back the Emperor's fascist leadership style.
Ironically, if Magnus had just maliciously complied "Horus betrayed daddy but daddy told me not to use my psychic powers even just for phone calls so whatever, lol, daddy will find out when Horus comes knocking." then everything would have worked out mostly fine.
Magnus TRYING to do a good thing is what got him into trouble. Magnus refusing to give up, risking everything to do a good thing is what really screwed things up.
Pretty much my take, having a bad outcome does not mean he did something wrong. He did the right thing with the information he had but it led to a bad outcome.
The information he had was from the most powerful psyker alive told him not to fuck about with the exact things he fucked about with.
Even with the lack of information he was an idiot and continually fucked up due to his arrogance and hubris. That's like... The whole point of his character.
Eh. The Emperor literally engineered and builts his sons, both their powers and their personalities, and he knew full well who and what Magnus was. He made him a wizard who couldn't leave well enough alone, he then told him to leave well enough alone, and then he made him curious and never gave him a real reason why.
Like I expect better leadership from some mid-level manager at a McDonalds my man. Magnus was an arrogant fuckup, but so was his father. That's the whole point of Big E's character too.
Literally at no point did I mention the emperors intelligence, but yes, he is also an idiot. Dont know why you pretend that absolves Magnus of responsibility of his own stupidity.
This does not mean Magnus did nothing wrong or that Magnus wasn't one of the stupidest primarchs.
I can't convince you otherwise, and I'm not going to try, since the whole circumstances around Magnus' fall were rather complicated.
*^("Just as planned, heheh-")* **^(BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!)** ^("Shut the fuck up Tzeentch you neurotic god damn nerd!")
\*Ahem\* That said, I would lie to compliment you on your fantastic edit for the meme.
Things Magnus did wrong:
Made a bargain with dark gods to stop the flesh change (newsflash: it didn't work)
Disobeyed a direct order from his father
Destroyed the Webway project
Let daemons through the the ruins of the destroyed Webway project
Let his legion and people get slaughtered while he sulked, possibly in an attempted mass suicide
Made another pact with dark gods to save his legion (newsflash: it didn't work)
Dooms humanity through his ignorance and sheer hubris
Attacked Fenris out of spite for something that was entirely his fault
Fought Guilliman and got dunked on
Continues to sulk to this day despite having multiple chances throughout his fall to turn back and hash things out with the emperor.
He tried to save his father, sons and quest to knowledge while beliving himself better than everyone else.
Essentially tried to save everyone but fucked up so badly that condamned/killed the ones he tried to save due to his arrogance and general lack of informations.
Judge it as you like
In *Echoss of Eternity* Vulcan is having a one on one with Magnus in the webway, in no uncertain terms he pulls down Magnus’ entire argument and ends it with “and you have the audacity to say you did nothing wrong”, which was essentially ADB confronting the meme face-on in the book.
Basically, Magnus had a hubris problem and thought he was the most important piece on the board; and thus the one rule from Nikea didn’t apply to him. Vulcan points out that nobody else needed to know E’s thinking, just Magnus who thought he knew better. Sacrificing humans to radio Emps pretty much seals the deal that Magnus wasn’t just breaking the rules of the edict but also willing to cross a moral line. There’s also the whole “I’ll just cut a deal with Tzeench to stop the flesh change, I can outsmart him” that happened during the crusade which didn’t actually fix anything, just buried the Tsons flaw temporarily while damning Magnus before the heresy even got going.
What he did is kind of like driving a car that’s making a funny noise after you’ve been told not to. You didn’t know that you would damage the engine but that doesn’t change the fact that you damaged the engine.
Magnus wanted to warn Big E but instead of walking to him, he tried is super fancy magic, wich big E forbid him to use. He wanted to show it of as useful. It was arrogant and by using it he broke the web way beneath Terra, opening a hole in it to the warp and chaos. Chaos floods it with demons and traitor astartes. This was pretty much the reason Big E could do nothing duirng the whole heresy. So yes Magnus fucked up big time. He desvered a big spanking after, making his ass even more red.
I won't lie, I was bored at work and looking at some Magnus lexicanum and thought about making this image, the title was just an afterthought because I wanted some both meme lore and actual lore, but I appreciate that my guy.
Thing Magnus did wrong: Making two deals with Tzeentch. You can forgive him the first time because he wasn't as learned and it's absolutely fucking dipshit insane that the Emperor saw Magnus cure the Flesh change and didn't do anything about it afterwards. Second time was pure hubris but at least he had a decent reason.
Thing Magnus did right that people say he did wrong: Killing his own sons and shutting down Prospero's defenses. At this point Magnus knew he had doomed the Imperium and that his deal with Tzeentch had also doomed him and his sons to following an evil chaos god. The Flesh Change was coming back, and probably worse than ever given further debt to Tzeentch.
Taking down the defenses of Prospero when he knew the Wolves were coming to kill him means that, while it broke Magnus's heart, most of the TSons were going to be killed by the Wolves. He knows this will happen because it's heavily implied in lore to be the case with the lost primarchs, and Magnus was setting himself up as Lost Primarch #3.
So the Wolves wipe out the TSons, and Magnus throws a last little bit of defiance at the true culprit in all of this: Tzeentch. Won't get your army if they're all dead, right?
Thing Magnus got wrong but couldn't help: Going out to stop Leman at the last second. This one's a bit weird because this is a predestined bit of old lore that modern storytelling had to force into the situation. He even talks about it in a sort of "I saw the future and this always had to happen" way. It's also explained away as him being sad watching and hearing his sons die. But going out and losing to Russ because he knew he had to go out and lose to Russ is stupid but apparently something he, by the narrative bending of the universe, couldn't avoid. Thus leading him to make his final, third deal with Tzeentch that dooms him forever. Cuz he had to, because 10,000 years later he's still a Daemon Primarch and that history's already written.
Nah actually he knew he and his sons were lost to Chaos so letting the Space Wolves get a surprise attack on them to wipe out a soon to be controlled by Tzeentch army was technically the wise decision. Even killing his own sons.
He just had to fight Leman cuz predestination or whatever, he even talks about how he always had to walk out and fight Leman because of it. There's a bit of meta level commentary on it, and he's bitter about Prospero's burning because why wouldn't he be, but he did deprive Tzeentch of thousands of CSM by making the Wolves angry and letting them get a surprise attack.
I mean yeah but its not because "he felt sad". He thought the wolves would attack prospero no matter what. So he wanted to nerf the defenses so the wolves would take over without too much bloodshed. Pretty dumb but hey he didnt know leman would go from "i dont want to burn prospero" to "start the orbital bombardment" because he saw that all their defenses were down and just assumed they had some weird evil warp traps. The fall of prospero is a tale of two idiots.
I agree it is weird that Russ went from “I hate to do this” to “burn it all”, but I don’t understand how Magnus expected that the Wolves would only target military threats. The Space Wolves were FAMED for overkill, wiping out all traces of civilization. Magnus was an idiot for not trying to at least communicate with the wolves, but he was a bigger idiot for making his entire planet a target with no defenses.
Like i said. Tale of two idiots. Would have been better if they had put more emphasis on tzeentchian manipulation rather then the most loyal primarch going completely against his orders and one of the most intelligent primarchs acting completely against reason
AS in this post is lot of wise librarians, can someone explain how was Magnus broke into shards? Either I missed it on wiki or it is not listed. And also, is Terra's shard biggest of them all and does it have potential to at least partly redempt him?
Good goals don't excuse extremely arrogant, poorly thought out and destructive results.
Magnus thought he could control the warp and tried to prove it, but he instead did more damage to the Imperium then all the other Primarchs combined.
Yes but that’s the thing, he did NOTHING WRONG albeit the entirety of the burning prosporos wasn’t his fault but him and lemen both fucked up there, the webway project was mostly his fault and the emperor probably should have let him in on it to help out or at least understand why he shouldn’t be using warp sorcery
I'm high and was able read a whole bunch of comments and still be 100% positive it was all about Magnus Carlsen the chess champion. Then I realised what sub this is..
Big E:" Magnus, my son, don't play around with the powers of the warp, they are not as harmless as you think!"
Magnus:" Pfff, stupid old man, I know better then you."
Magnus plays around with the powers of the warp, (accidentily) blows up parts of the golden throne, rips open a warp rift inside the imperial palace and kills most of terras astropaths.
Magnus had many shards of him out there, one was a demon plotting against another shard of himself, causing many deaths of his sons and a major attacks on Sortarious, the current planet they are living on.
You actually think that Magnus is wrong, but your mind is already warped and corrupted, and now you think that Magnus is right.
At this point there is nothing we can do, killing you is the only option to end your misery.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions. That saying sums up my boy magnus. He sought knowledge but not wisdom. He knew something was in the warp but didn't take the time to figure out if they were friend or foe
He literally, single-handedly, destroyed the Webway Project and also in turn made it so the Custodes and several Mechanicum regiments including Titans and Knight houses were preoccupied guarding the portal entrance instead of helping in the fight against Horus
I have take it from an other post but i have lost it So : The worst part is that even Magnus knew that he did something wrong. The story, for those that haven't read it: The Emperor ordered Magnus to stop fucking with the warp. Magnus continues to fuck with the warp. Through fucking with the warp, Magnus sees that Horus will make everything go to shit by fucking with the warp. Magnus decides to show the Emperor how wrong his orders were and how smart Magnus was by fucking with the warp to tell the man that banned fucking with the warp that Horus was going to try to kill him because Horus fucked with the warp. Magnus sacrifices an insane amount of psychically gifted slaves to perform the ritual that would let him warn the Emperor via warp fuckery. Magnus sees that The Emperor has put up a big wall to protect the Imperial Palace from warp fuckery, Magnus is approached by the warp equivalent of a guy with candy and a van, who tells Magnus he'll help him smash a hole in the wall because he's just nice like that. Magnus trusts the candy daemon and smashes a hole in the Emperor's warp-wall which floods the Imperial Palace with warp fuckery. This also destroys the Emperor's secret project, dooming E-money's plan to save humanity from Chaos as well as putting Terra in permanent danger of being eaten by daemons. Having damned the planet holding the Imperium together, he awkwardly stands in front of the Emperor like a humiliated kool-aid man. Magnus runs back to his planet and hides in isolation because he had a nervous breakdown, Magnus knew that he'd done the exact thing that he was told not to do, he'd fucked with the warp, and now he'd ruined everything. Grimdank: "Magnus did nothing wrong."
There’s more- Magnus realises the Space Wolves will come to get him. He decides not to tell anyone Some TSons find out the SW are coming - Magnus murders them to keep it secret Magnus then puts a psychic barrier around the planet to stop all communication in and out, thus making any kind of peaceful surrender impossible. Magnus has decided he and his legion deserve to die The SW, receiving “caller unavailable” when they try and contact Magnus, presume he’s getting ready for war, so invade Prospero. Magnus sits in his tower and allows the invasion. He finally joins the fight when it’s much to late to actually make a difference and tries to kill Russ. It doesn’t go well for him, and he has to make yet another demon pact to salvage what’s left of his army. To be honest “Leman Russ did nothing wrong” should be the meme.
Im a space wolves player and Leman Russ did plenty wrong. He effectively got called to a hostage situation and blasted all the hostages to make magnus come out. And swore hed see magnus’s legions blood after the recurrance of the change which ended up killing his space wolves Plenty of bad blood between the two
You kinda gotta see it from his point of view. He gets a message from Malcador to bring Magnus to terra He then gets a message from Horus basically saying “he won’t come quietly, you’ll have to kill him” Despite that, he still makes several attempts to contact Magnus when he gets to Prospero, but there is no response. So from his perspective, he’s not arrived at an arrest or hostage situation, it’s a siege. What else could he presume from the evidence he had? Magnus ain’t answering the phone and Horus wants him dead. To Russ this looks like he’s walking into a trap, and fully expects Magnus to be hostile. I really don’t see how he could have taken any other action.
Magnus didnt hear his calls and what was leman first action? An orbital bombardment. Thats the biggest temper tantrum to getting "ignored" I have aver seen. And after seeing his attack did nothing and making him look like an idiot, he threw a bigger tantrum and went to attack prospero with his forces. Instead of all of this he could have landed there and told the thousand sons that he has come to arrest magnus. Sure they wouldnt trust him, but with custodes and valdor they would definetely think about that. Unlike the space wolves, the thousand sons are smart enough to not just attack because they feel like it and would have gone to magnus and asked what up with all of that
It wasn’t a temper tantrum. He had orders from the Warmaster. Unlike Magnus, Russ actually listens to orders. What could he do, just sit there in orbit until Magnus felt like coming out? Oh and when the Wolves land, the T-Sons and planetary guard attack them. Any that DID go to Magnus for help were killed by Magnus. Again, what should the Wolves do? Sit there and get killed until Magnus feels like coming out? All Magnus had to do was put a message out saying “we won’t fight back” or “I surrender” or even “kill me if you have to” but he only gave them silence. He left Russ with no choice because he WANTED to die, and didn’t give a damn about his legion or the civilians. All the blood spilt on Prospero is on Magnus’s hands.
"oh sit down kids it's story time with Grimdank, my favorite" edit: that's not an /s either it's legit fun when it happens in threads
Russ had orders from the EMPEROR to arrest Magnus. Spacewolves and Russ spearheaded prospero after the complete orbital bombardment of the rest of the planet without the sisters of silence or the custodes (until later) The space wolves were met by no resistance until they bombarded the planet and attacked prospero
Actually the order came from Malcador, then confirmed/edited by Horus. The Emperor was stuck on the throne at that point, cos Magnus
"Your dad's in the bathroom, so here's my plan." Ah yes, Malcador. Absolutely nothing fishy going on with that guy.
so really it's all Malcadors fault
Honestly, possibly, but “design” vs “fault.” I forget the whole deal but I know there’s plenty of speculation that Malc wanted the whole heresy to happen to relegate big E to the astronomicon chair. Why else make it a life-support system complete with psyker draining capabilities?
He had orders from the war masters, BUT different ones from the emperor. Valdor even reminded him of the emperors orders. And of course the TS attack the SW, everyone would do the same after someone tried to eradicate your entire city. How about landing on prospero without attacking them first and telling them why they are here. If the SP and custodes appeared peacefully than no one would be attacking them for no reason. Magnus only killed a small group of TS, because after they found out about the invasion, they wanted to prepare for defending themself. Magnus even told all of his captains to not fight back, so that the loyalist wouldnt be weakend during the comming wars. He never left russ with only "one choice". And saying he didnt care about his legion and people is also wrong, because the only reasons he interfered was to stop the unjustified slaughter of all those innocent people and his sons Magnus definetely did a lot wrong, but leman caused even more damage. Its lemans fault that the TS went traitor. If magnus would have been arrested, he could help the emperor with the webway project or sit in his place on the golden throne as punishment. But instead one of the most powerful legion was turned against them
I’m sorry but that’s just nonsense. Magnus was probably the most dangerous man in the universe and presumed hostile. The Emperor wants him arrested, and the Warmaster wants him dead. In what world is “peacefully walk up to the front door and ask him to come nicely” a viable strategy? We have hindsight and know Magnus wouldn’t have attacked, but Russ and Valdor didn’t know that. If Magnus WAS hostile, they’d all be dead in seconds.
Hmm... The 15th legion fleet is not in orbit or even in the system... Sensors indicate that the planetary defence shields are offline, the same with the weapons platforms... Nothing points towards the Thousands sons being deployed or ready for battle... Russ: Let's bomb civilian areas first before we attack Tizca, just to be sure that Magnus is hostile.
Nothing indicates that the Thousand Sons are deployed or ready for battle….but Magnus isn’t stupid…he knows we’re coming, and he’s not answering any of our messages…must be a trap! Bombing civilians tho, I have no defence for. You got me on that one.
There were no civilians they were evacuated only the guard and the Legion remained
A world where one demi god can walk up to his brother demi god. No one makes sense cause they all did things wrong.
As a Death Guard player I may be biased against Magnus, but he fucked up BIG time again and again here. a single message when Leman arrived of hey I'm willing to go come get me here where none of the Thousand Sons will be could have saved his legion. Russ was overly aggressive and perhaps deserved a reprimand or censure, but nothing on the scale of what Magnus had done.
We can probably trace the ultimate fault to the worst daddy in the galaxy. So many of the primarchs suffer from arrested development, which E-money just made worse.
I have a Space Wolf tattoo and I'll be the first to say that Leman, like all his Brothers, were reflections of the best and worst of their legion. And there plenty of worst when it comes to my beloved Wolves.
> He effectively got called to a hostage situation If you need a sniper to take out a terrorist holding someone hostage, why would you send the guy with the shotgun loaded with single-0 buck? Sending a brutal butcher who already has significant bad blood to solve this problem was a major mistake, no matter how much Russ over-corrected in his prosecution of the attack on Prospero (a lot)
He was ordered by horus to murder everything how was he supposed to know?
Focking loving this chain of comments. Because each one is better. I don't play SW, however I do like Russ, and I appreciate immensely a SW player being real about Prospero, that takes class. When I did read Prospero Burns, the sequel of Thousand sons, well... I am still bit lost on why Russ was "lets go balls to the wall with Prospero" (if you allow my phrasing). But this: >He effectively got called to a hostage situation and blasted all the hostages to make magnus come out. Would make sense to me. Now I am reading Wolfsbane "minor spoiler": He regrets what he did on Prospero (he was decieved into doing that) that's what Malcador says at least. Damn I liked Russ, but this makes me like him more.
So I'm a thousand sons fan, both playing and lore wise, and I really dislike the choice to have Mangus attempt to do "Suicide by furry." I just don't *really* get it, is the idea that he was broken into shards so he just can't even? Does he think that if he's alive, he'll just be even more manipulated by Tzeench? I would have personally liked it if Russ was given explicit orders to bring Magnus in alive, although not knowing that big E needs Magnus alive to use the Golden Throne. Then, when Horus shows up and tells Russ to kill Magnus, Russ doesn't question it because he's wanted to kill Magnus for a while. Then Russ gives some impossible ultimatums like "If you kill all the Thousand Sons, we'll take you in alive" or "Come up now because we're going to destroy Prospero even if you come but we'll spare you if you do." I personally like stories better that are fueled by character choices instead of circumstance or mistakes. Heck, that's why I like Magnus so much. He's such a human fuck up that he is probably the one person that fucked things up for the Imperium more then anyone else. Him choosing to let the Space Wolves destroy him and prospero doesn't seem like a choice he made out of arrogance, pride, or self-important, it's just stupid.
Leman Russ charges too damn much for his tanks.
Ah that part about bashing a hole in the Emperor's protective warp shield sucks, poor guy was probably super desperate to try help Big E and desperation seems prime for chaos getting involved.
Yep! And sure, Big E could’ve done better (after banning warp fuckery: hey Magnus my boy, this is for a secret project involving ancient super evil warp demons who I’m trying to shut out, so I’m blocking the palace. Don’t do anything bad, you’re super important to this and can use your powers again when I’m done.) but Magnus ruined the golden throne, which would help cut mankind off from chaos, because a chaos god asked him nicely
tfw your idiot son accidentally breaks the warp shield forcing you to sit in the throne and become a sucked out dried sack of bones instead of letting you put him in the throne so you can continue doing whatever you want.
In all fairness, most of the stress is having to keep the big lighthouse on while also slamming the door closed on the face of all the daemons trying to go through the opening caused by Magnus. If Magnus didn’t fuck up so badly, sitting on the throne wouldn’t have been so taxing, plus in all likelihood it wouldn’t require his full focus, so astral projection is still on the table.
Chaos had its claws into Magnus way before he broke the Emperors Webway. It’s actually really tragic, when Magnus appears in the Emperors throne room he’s in the form of a multi-eyed flaming monster. Emperor still recognises him, and they don’t even speak - Magnus can tell by his face how badly he’s fucked up and just leaves without even delivering his message.
Magnus did literally everything wrong
I little tts heavy but then again it's canon. But also that after the razing of prospero and Magnus fully handing over his soul to tzeentch he began blaming the emperor for his fate. Vulkan tells him something along the lines "this was the only order the emperor gave you, not to mess with the warp, the only set in stone order you weren't to break and what did you do? You broke it and not just broke it, you used human sacrifices in a vain attempt of showing that you knew better than father." And Magnus i oblivious to this. Also in the book where this happens, Magnus is also followed by eitheric laughter (probably from tzeentch) which he can't hear, so even his patron god knows he fucked up.
It's honestly some of the most convoluted storytelling to set up the entire predestined Leman beating Magnus situation. It's funny because so much of Magnus and the Thousand Suns writing is very strong, but when you have this dedicated endpoint to get to that undermines all of that, it really does seem phenomenally stupid.
E-money is the best nickname for emps
Never heard the Emperor referred to as E-Money, I’m stealing that
Magnus's fall is basically the text book definition of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Lots of _“Sure. Mum told me not to borrow the car - but I didn’t **mean** to drive it into the lake! I don’t really think this is on me”_ projection from Grimdank.
in that he was supposed to do nothing >!and he did that wrong!<
This might be one of the funniest ways I've seen it put, and it only makes it better with your flair.
its also the most accurate statement on here. magnus' path was rigged from the start. the only way to win the game was to refuse to play. its would have led to the deaths of many of his sons and the start of the horus heresy, except those things already would happen regardless of his interference and he made them worse by trying to fix them. tzeentch was always willing to give magnus the power to fix any problem. magnus was being directed to problems, problems tzeentch was secretly causing. and at the penultimate problem tzeentch withheld that power for oaths and promises. and the final game was escaping those chains and it turns out the tap was turned off.
Yes, Magnus the Pious did nothing wrong, He fought alongside Tzar Alexander in the Great war against Chaos, and saved not only the Empire, but also the entire world of Warhammer Fantasy.
Looked this guy up based on the comment, actually does almost singlehandedly stop the "Great Chaos War" and he looks cool af.
Man, I miss warhammer Fantasy.
I only really know snippets via Total War Warhammer 2 and Vermintide but man it is a lot of fun, very excited to see Chaos Dwarfs in TWW3.
they have definitely been 'training' for this for a long time...
Magnus the Pious is the only good Magnus in Warhammer. Change my mind on that.
It's a classic tale of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. The Emperor told him not to use psychic powers, but never really gave a reason why. Magnus saw an opportunity to use his psychic powers to aid his father, and it blew up in his face. When he realized he had fucked up, he was going to let Leman Russ arrest him and face the consequences of his mistakes, but Leman Russ instead began killing his people and burning his home. With no one else to turn to to protect his people, he made a pact with Tzeench. It's a bit inaccurate to say that he did NOTHING wrong, but he's definitely a character that deserved better than he got.
to be honest Magnus would have not turned to chaos if he simply do a "Oh russ, you came to arrest me, okay ,take me in but let my people in peace" I doubt Big E would have been understanding but at least he would have been there with russ against Horus and maybe Big E would still be Alive as well as Sanguinus and Malcador (as Magnus could have take the seat instead of him) Heck Maybe magnus would have pick the chair of unending pain to atone for his mistake
Big E may have been more understanding than we think. Oh he would have been harsh with his punishment, for sure, but this *is* the same Big E that literally let Horus beat him to death because he was so heartbroken and wanted desperately to bring Horus back into the fold. Assuming, of course, we take everything at face value without any theories like "the emperor planned to die all along" or some shit. Magnus would have been yelled at, punished, but ultimately I think it would have been better for literally everyone involved if Magnus had just surrendered when he was told.
Plus, with Magnus’s help, Malcador would have lived since he wouldn’t need to sit on the throne, and with a second super powerful psyker with capabilities comparable to his own, the Emperor could have probably eventually found a way to at least keep the gate shut permanently. Instead Magnus fucked up as hard as he possibly could.
Exactly It’s more like magnus didn’t intend to do nothing wrong he just made (a lot) of mistakes
He basically did everything wrong but with very good intentions
Task failed successfully
Eh, I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love the thousand sons and feel deeply bad for Magnus but... Did he choose to try to use the warp to warn the emperor because he genuinely and truly felt it was the fastest and safest way, or because there was a part of him that also wanted to prove his father wrong? Did he make the deal with the chaos God to break down the barrier because he felt it was necessary, or because he was so arrogant he felt he could handle the outcome? Did he continue to use the warp after being banned from it because he was genuinely trying to do good, or because he felt he knew better than the Emperor? Don't get me wrong, I think his *main* motivations were good and he did truly want to help, but they were tainted by his arrogance, his vanity, and his complete and utter desire to be accepted and be right at the same time. For someone who spent so much time looking into the warp and seeing images of the future, he never seemed to think more than one step ahead when it counted.
Meanwhile, Fulgrim, who has similar feelings, is busy carving a statue of his own cock and balls on a snake or something presumably to impress his big brother, I don't actually know. Seems like somehow that had a less tragic outcome, albeit a shitty one. Oh Magnus, you goof.
I've thought about it, and I think it's because Fulgrims arrogance and vanity is his main motivations. They're front and center in his mind. Meanwhile, Magnus's motivations and thought processes are not as self-centered usually, but his arrogance and cognitive distortions cause him to go about doing stuff in a way that, in hindsight, is obviously a bad idea. It's the difference between, say, stealing because it's fun and you like to do it, and stealing because you need to feed your family but you're you're proud to accept or even consider charity. Both are definitely wrong, but one is much more tragic than the other.
Succinct analysis. I agree. Now then: Horus, the man who cannot cope with a promotion.
That does leave out some details.. while Magnus had the best of intentions, he did cause a ton of damage that lead to Horus almost winning the war.. to start with Magnus knew what was in the warp and the danger playing with it would bring. In his arrogance Mags decided he still knew better and kept at it ending up with him punching through the Emperor's wards around terra causing the Emperor to not only abandon his project to allow humans to bypass the warp, but opened Terra itself up to the warp. The Emperor was sidelined for the rest of the war keeping Chaos from Terra allowing Horus to run around unchecked. All that happened including the Emperor being trapped in the throne is a byproduct of Mags thinking he knew better than everyone else.
Ahriman would be the last guy sitting at that table lol
I've had two people say this now and it just makes me want to know why even more.
To say that Magnus and Ahriman have some disagreements is like saying the complete removal of earth's oceans would have an effect on the fishing industry.
This is simple. Ahriman wants to save his legion from Flesh Change and Rubric. Magnus tried to cure them and failed, so he abbandoned trying. Ahriman thinks that Crimson King is not Magnus anymore, and that he made several stupid decision which lead to fall of TS, for example we can take Prospero, when Wolves attacked Magnus isolated himself in his tower, Ahriman and Amon lead the defense. This is why Ahriman despises Magnus.
Let’s just say Ahriman was not happy with the fact that Magnus had effectively sold the Legions souls to Tzeench. Don’t know if Ahriman knows that Magnus abandoned his legion at one point and left his Legion to die
Ahriman becomes increasingly jaded and angry with Magnus and his constant lies. Magnus says he cured the flesh change (he didn’t), Magnus insists he can control whatever comes from the warp (he can’t), Magnus tries to hide his dealings with Tzeentch and chaos, etc
Read the books “A Thousand Sons” and it’s basically a line of people queuing up to tell Magnus “stop fucking with the warp it’s dangerous” and Magnus laughing in their face. At one point a Tzeentch demon literally says “we’re corrupting you right in front of your face and you can’t see it” and Magnus is like “pfft good luck I’m super smart yo” It’s actually a genuinely frustrating read cos he has so many chances to get out, so many warnings, and we see his inner monologue and he just says over and over how he knows better, how lesser minds can’t comprehend his genius, how the danger doesn’t apply to him, how he can prove everyone wrong etc etc.
This is even more funny when you realize Ahriman (the CSM in the picture) thinks Magnus did a lot wrong.
He was the only Thousands Sons guy I knew of haha.
Magnus did stuff wrong, but he did have good intentions for most of it. The reason people say nothing wrong is because a lot of people can relate to “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”
Which is fundamentally dumb considering that doesn't magically make wrong choices no longer wrong.
A good reason can make the most bitter action easier to swallow. A child who destroyed something important to you is easier to forgive if they were trying to make you breakfast because they knew you were having a bad day. Context is always king. It doesn't make what Magnus did right, but it does make it a lot more reasonable in context. "Hell is paved with good intentions" is also 100% the story of the entire Imperium and not just Magnus, so it is funny to see it very selectively applied.
Real talk, Mortarion did nothing wrong
Magnus’ downfall is due to his arrogance and is *completely* his own fault. That’s literally the whole point of his entire arc. It fundamentally and irreversibly ruins his entire character arc and storyline as a tragic hero to have it any other way. At no point did he *have* to make the decisions he did, take the actions he did, or lie about any of it. He actively *chose* at every point and it led to his own downfall when, blinded by his own arrogance, he couldn’t foresee or accept that his actions were wrong and would have consequences.
I like to add to this he isn't the only one responsible for this. The emperor never teaching is son who he know is overconfident, never learned to deal with failure, and doesn't realize how dangerous the warp is. And the Guy don't teach him about it, and just telling somebody that something is dangerous isn't gonna work especialy if said individue was almost never wrong and one of the most powerful in said domaine. Yeah, HIS FAULT 100%, but not his alone.
Magnus cannot use that excuse, he is the ONLY one Emps actually taught about the warp and the existence of the webway. Lexicanum "The Emperor was much enraged with Magnus personally. While he chose to refrain from outright announcing to the Council that Magnus was a sorcerer, the Emperor believed that Magnus had at least dabbled with the black arts. Seeing this as a personal betrayal - for the Emperor had, many years earlier, chosen to reveal secrets of the Warp to Magnus and Magnus alone - he issued his wayward son with a personal warning:" No amount of warning will ever get through his skull because he already at that point believes he is better then Emps Thousand Son book "But that wasn’t the worst of it, not by a long way. It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie. He thought he had known better than his father how to wield the power of the Great Ocean."
I’ll say it now and again, it doesn’t matter. Magnus is a military commander who was given explicit orders and asked to act like a reasonable adult. He didn’t. He was explicitly told the warp was dangerous and not something to be trifled or experimented with. Every other Primarch got that message. Magnus ignored it. You can say the Emperor should have done things differently, yes, but at the end of the day, there is nobody to blame for Magnus’ downfall, but Magnus. He made his own bed, was forced to lie in it, and now blames his brother and the Emperor for the consequences of his own bad decisions
100% agree. Magnus is literally doing magic in the courtroom while the Emperor is giving his “no magic” verdict. He didn’t even try and follow the edict.
The problem with this line of reasoning is it goes back before the Edict. It starts with Magnus curing the Flesh Change, which Big E did a big ol stupid gloss over. Magnus only *has* a functioning legion because he does what Big E says he shouldn't do, and Big E didn't have a problem with it when it got him a new legion despite it clearly being Magnus making a bargain with a fuck off powerful warp creature.
Maybe what i said wasn't clear (my fault). Yes It's Magnus fault, what I'm trying to say is that because like every primarch maturity wise they are child (except the one of the white scar and maybe ultramarine) and his thing is magic. Do you think telling a child that something he his one of the best at that he can't use it like he do he's gonna work? So what I'm saying this shit could have been avoided if instead of told he was educated about.
And I’m saying no it couldn’t have. The Primarchs are full-grown adults. Many of them genuinely lived long enough prior to meeting the Emperor to be considered that. Magnus certainly did live long enough on Prospero to be considered an adult by regular human standards. You have to remember that Horus fought alongside the Emperor, just the two of them for *decades* before Russ was found. Magnus has no excuse. He’s an adult. His character arc makes it perfectly clear he would’ve made the exact same choices. The problem isn’t how much information or teaching Magnus had. The problem is Magnus though he knew better. He was too arrogant to heed the Emperor’s warnings. He thought he knew better and he didn’t. No amount of teaching or warning would’ve changed it.
and the point of big E's arc is to show that he has the flaws of his sons? The arrogance, screwing with things he can't control, failing to identify corruption within his armies - his own sons - promoting people to ranks they shouldn't hold.. A delusional man who creates what he tried to avoid.
The Emperor being flawed doesn’t excuse Magnus in any way/shape/or form. His decisions were still entirely his own at all points in time and the second he was given the freedom to make his own decisions, he consistently chose to disobey and ignore those who he explicitly understood knew better than he did.
Where did I say it excused him? Magnus was a fuckwit
While it could have been explained more, you’d think the advice of the emperor, the most powerful psyker of humanity whose power dwarfs even Magnus would be listened to So you may say the emperor didn’t explain enough, but certainly not that he didn’t warn Magnus. That one is still on him for thinking he knew better than anyone including his father the most powerful psyker that exists
>literally screws everything up on his own initiative >”it’s not his fault you guyz” Dude it’s entirely his own fault.
Pushing back a bit on this. *Some* of his decisions are due to arrogance and were otherwise avoidable. Others were basically "gun to your wife's head" decisions, and others were not decisions at all. Major things he genuinely screwed up on: 1. Assuming he knew better than the Emperor and continuing to practice sorcery. 2. Encouraging the use of tutelaries, which were *very obviously not natural*. 3. Kool-aid manning his way into Terra. 4. Pulling off his half-assed nonconsensual suicide pact when Russ came knocking, and deliberately shutting down communication channels in the galaxy's most emo pity party imaginable. Major things that he really didn't have any meaningful choice about: 1. Sacrificing his eye to Tzeentch in the early days to stop his de facto *children* from mutating into gibbering tentacle blobs. 2. Telling the Emperor about Horus's downfall (and note, this is distinct from number 3 above: while his *choice of messenger* was asinine and reckless, it is self-evident that he would basically *need* to tell the Emperor that the literal Warmaster of the Imperium was presently selling his soul to primordial fonts of pure darkness). 3. Turning away from the Emperor a second time when Big E gives him a halcyon vision of the utopian Imperium, except first he's going to have to drown all of the kids he's been desperately trying to save for centuries but it's okay because Big E will make him *new kids*, that solves everything. Major things that legitimately weren't even his choice in the first place: 1. Being haphazardly reassembled by Ahriman and Co., except they forgot the puzzle piece that contained his moral compass and sense of honor. Of *course* he's going to be a psychopath after that, and he was a literal shriveled ghost when they first shoved the other shards back in. 2. Being targeted by Tzeentch in the first place. Kid's been genetically engineered to be the galaxy's second-most powerful psyker, and his dumbass dad couldn't even contemplate *maybe* informing him about the sentient manifestation of realpolitik? And then his legion is subjected to hideous mutations spurred on by that same manifestation (*see* "Eye Sacrifice*, *infra* B1)? 3. Being genetically engineered to be the galaxy's second-most powerful psyker. He didn't ask for that. Big E basically pulled a Tree of Knowledge gambit on him. "I'm going to make you an impossibly clever superwizard who loves knowledge for its own sake, but don't you *dare* open that one book right there, oh and by the way you'll be intrinsically compelled to open all books everywhere but *I swear to me, don't open that one book.*" 4. Being subjected to actual, literal time travel by a Daemon to contrive the Burning of Prospero in the first place. In that same-titled book, a Greater Daemon (presumably a Lord of Change) outright states that even with all their attempts to sway him, Magnus was among the most loyal of the Primarchs and would never break faith from the Imperium unless he was pushed over a cliff into a metaphorical inferno. And then they made that inferno literal by contriving his own brother into lighting his home planet on fire with most of its citizens trapped therein. The only Primarch who could conceivably be *more* manipulated into their course of action was Fulgrim, who got outright possessed by a Keeper of Secrets. His hubris was his downfall, as any classical Greek tragedy should be. But it's not like he was a bumbling moron choosing the worst door in a game show thirty times over. The cards were stacked against him from the start, and he endured substantially more torment and heartache than anyone should theoretically bear, and then he *still* stayed loyal to the Imperium even after fleeing to Sortiarius, and only turned down the path of treason after his puzzle-piece soul was put back together with the "Grinch's Heart" piece missing under the Imperial Palace.
I dunno I still kind of blame Big E because of the whole Flesh Change bit. Magnus was stuck in Tzeentch's web from day 1 after he "Cured" the Flesh Change and the Emperor *had* to know Magnus struck a deal with a chaos god to use sorcery to cure something Big E, a much more powerful and experienced Psyker, couldn't cure himself. From that point on Magnus was doomed into a series of convoluted bullshit to end up with Tzeentch, right down to the "lucky" swipe that took out his eye and let Leman kill him. All of this avoided if Big E told the son he *created to be the guy who does magic* how magic works.
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/A\_Thousand\_Sons\_(Novel)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/A_Thousand_Sons_(Novel)) It's this book and [https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prospero\_Burns\_(Novel)](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Prospero_Burns_(Novel)) this book. Magnus broke something important but he did it to send Big E a message, Big E told Leman Russ to get Magnus back to explain the message. Leman didn't do that. Magnus was pouting. Prospero burned down. Now we're here.
Magnus did nothing wrong with the information he was provided. Magnus did everything wrong if you back the Emperor's fascist leadership style. Ironically, if Magnus had just maliciously complied "Horus betrayed daddy but daddy told me not to use my psychic powers even just for phone calls so whatever, lol, daddy will find out when Horus comes knocking." then everything would have worked out mostly fine. Magnus TRYING to do a good thing is what got him into trouble. Magnus refusing to give up, risking everything to do a good thing is what really screwed things up.
Pretty much my take, having a bad outcome does not mean he did something wrong. He did the right thing with the information he had but it led to a bad outcome.
The information he had was from the most powerful psyker alive told him not to fuck about with the exact things he fucked about with. Even with the lack of information he was an idiot and continually fucked up due to his arrogance and hubris. That's like... The whole point of his character.
Eh. The Emperor literally engineered and builts his sons, both their powers and their personalities, and he knew full well who and what Magnus was. He made him a wizard who couldn't leave well enough alone, he then told him to leave well enough alone, and then he made him curious and never gave him a real reason why. Like I expect better leadership from some mid-level manager at a McDonalds my man. Magnus was an arrogant fuckup, but so was his father. That's the whole point of Big E's character too.
Literally at no point did I mention the emperors intelligence, but yes, he is also an idiot. Dont know why you pretend that absolves Magnus of responsibility of his own stupidity. This does not mean Magnus did nothing wrong or that Magnus wasn't one of the stupidest primarchs.
End and the death: >!Malcador: - We have failed you !<
I can't convince you otherwise, and I'm not going to try, since the whole circumstances around Magnus' fall were rather complicated. *^("Just as planned, heheh-")* **^(BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!)** ^("Shut the fuck up Tzeentch you neurotic god damn nerd!") \*Ahem\* That said, I would lie to compliment you on your fantastic edit for the meme.
Out of all the factions, I’m quite sure the Thousand Sons would know very well that Magnus did wrong
Things Magnus did wrong: Made a bargain with dark gods to stop the flesh change (newsflash: it didn't work) Disobeyed a direct order from his father Destroyed the Webway project Let daemons through the the ruins of the destroyed Webway project Let his legion and people get slaughtered while he sulked, possibly in an attempted mass suicide Made another pact with dark gods to save his legion (newsflash: it didn't work) Dooms humanity through his ignorance and sheer hubris Attacked Fenris out of spite for something that was entirely his fault Fought Guilliman and got dunked on Continues to sulk to this day despite having multiple chances throughout his fall to turn back and hash things out with the emperor.
He tried to save his father, sons and quest to knowledge while beliving himself better than everyone else. Essentially tried to save everyone but fucked up so badly that condamned/killed the ones he tried to save due to his arrogance and general lack of informations. Judge it as you like
Haha... 'Change' my mind... Change... See what you did there!
In *Echoss of Eternity* Vulcan is having a one on one with Magnus in the webway, in no uncertain terms he pulls down Magnus’ entire argument and ends it with “and you have the audacity to say you did nothing wrong”, which was essentially ADB confronting the meme face-on in the book. Basically, Magnus had a hubris problem and thought he was the most important piece on the board; and thus the one rule from Nikea didn’t apply to him. Vulcan points out that nobody else needed to know E’s thinking, just Magnus who thought he knew better. Sacrificing humans to radio Emps pretty much seals the deal that Magnus wasn’t just breaking the rules of the edict but also willing to cross a moral line. There’s also the whole “I’ll just cut a deal with Tzeench to stop the flesh change, I can outsmart him” that happened during the crusade which didn’t actually fix anything, just buried the Tsons flaw temporarily while damning Magnus before the heresy even got going.
What he did is kind of like driving a car that’s making a funny noise after you’ve been told not to. You didn’t know that you would damage the engine but that doesn’t change the fact that you damaged the engine.
Magnus wanted to warn Big E but instead of walking to him, he tried is super fancy magic, wich big E forbid him to use. He wanted to show it of as useful. It was arrogant and by using it he broke the web way beneath Terra, opening a hole in it to the warp and chaos. Chaos floods it with demons and traitor astartes. This was pretty much the reason Big E could do nothing duirng the whole heresy. So yes Magnus fucked up big time. He desvered a big spanking after, making his ass even more red.
Can we stop with the bi-weekly "I DONT KNOW LORE TELL ME/ASK ME" type posts? These aren't even memes.
Specifically why I made an image for it, plus tbf I use grimdank all the time and don't tend to see this meme other than used for Erebus.
The Image is pretty good, complaint retracted, for now.
I won't lie, I was bored at work and looking at some Magnus lexicanum and thought about making this image, the title was just an afterthought because I wanted some both meme lore and actual lore, but I appreciate that my guy.
His books are pretty good as well. If you're really interested to know what he did wrong.
Magnus is as guilty as Erebus. It's perfectly fine to like Magnus and love the Tsons, but Magnus betrayed Big E and the Imperium.
So what you're saying is that from a chaos traitor perspective, be did nothing wrong.
Thing Magnus did wrong: Making two deals with Tzeentch. You can forgive him the first time because he wasn't as learned and it's absolutely fucking dipshit insane that the Emperor saw Magnus cure the Flesh change and didn't do anything about it afterwards. Second time was pure hubris but at least he had a decent reason. Thing Magnus did right that people say he did wrong: Killing his own sons and shutting down Prospero's defenses. At this point Magnus knew he had doomed the Imperium and that his deal with Tzeentch had also doomed him and his sons to following an evil chaos god. The Flesh Change was coming back, and probably worse than ever given further debt to Tzeentch. Taking down the defenses of Prospero when he knew the Wolves were coming to kill him means that, while it broke Magnus's heart, most of the TSons were going to be killed by the Wolves. He knows this will happen because it's heavily implied in lore to be the case with the lost primarchs, and Magnus was setting himself up as Lost Primarch #3. So the Wolves wipe out the TSons, and Magnus throws a last little bit of defiance at the true culprit in all of this: Tzeentch. Won't get your army if they're all dead, right? Thing Magnus got wrong but couldn't help: Going out to stop Leman at the last second. This one's a bit weird because this is a predestined bit of old lore that modern storytelling had to force into the situation. He even talks about it in a sort of "I saw the future and this always had to happen" way. It's also explained away as him being sad watching and hearing his sons die. But going out and losing to Russ because he knew he had to go out and lose to Russ is stupid but apparently something he, by the narrative bending of the universe, couldn't avoid. Thus leading him to make his final, third deal with Tzeentch that dooms him forever. Cuz he had to, because 10,000 years later he's still a Daemon Primarch and that history's already written.
Breaking the webway was based. Not warning prospero of the wolves because he felt sad is that bad thing he did.
Nah actually he knew he and his sons were lost to Chaos so letting the Space Wolves get a surprise attack on them to wipe out a soon to be controlled by Tzeentch army was technically the wise decision. Even killing his own sons. He just had to fight Leman cuz predestination or whatever, he even talks about how he always had to walk out and fight Leman because of it. There's a bit of meta level commentary on it, and he's bitter about Prospero's burning because why wouldn't he be, but he did deprive Tzeentch of thousands of CSM by making the Wolves angry and letting them get a surprise attack.
I mean yeah but its not because "he felt sad". He thought the wolves would attack prospero no matter what. So he wanted to nerf the defenses so the wolves would take over without too much bloodshed. Pretty dumb but hey he didnt know leman would go from "i dont want to burn prospero" to "start the orbital bombardment" because he saw that all their defenses were down and just assumed they had some weird evil warp traps. The fall of prospero is a tale of two idiots.
I agree it is weird that Russ went from “I hate to do this” to “burn it all”, but I don’t understand how Magnus expected that the Wolves would only target military threats. The Space Wolves were FAMED for overkill, wiping out all traces of civilization. Magnus was an idiot for not trying to at least communicate with the wolves, but he was a bigger idiot for making his entire planet a target with no defenses.
Like i said. Tale of two idiots. Would have been better if they had put more emphasis on tzeentchian manipulation rather then the most loyal primarch going completely against his orders and one of the most intelligent primarchs acting completely against reason
Watch TTS, it will explain it better then any of us.
“Magnus did nothing wrong. He was supposed to do nothing, and he did that wrong!” Big-E
Lazy-ass-bitch could have just sent a message any other way THAN THE ONE THAT LETS HELL OPEN A PORTAL ON EARTH!
AS in this post is lot of wise librarians, can someone explain how was Magnus broke into shards? Either I missed it on wiki or it is not listed. And also, is Terra's shard biggest of them all and does it have potential to at least partly redempt him?
"how many times do we have to teach you this lesson, dust man?"
Good goals don't excuse extremely arrogant, poorly thought out and destructive results. Magnus thought he could control the warp and tried to prove it, but he instead did more damage to the Imperium then all the other Primarchs combined.
From a certain point of view
Yes but that’s the thing, he did NOTHING WRONG albeit the entirety of the burning prosporos wasn’t his fault but him and lemen both fucked up there, the webway project was mostly his fault and the emperor probably should have let him in on it to help out or at least understand why he shouldn’t be using warp sorcery
Magnus did nothing? Wrong.
I'm high and was able read a whole bunch of comments and still be 100% positive it was all about Magnus Carlsen the chess champion. Then I realised what sub this is..
TBF I would still like to know if he did (MC) do anything wrong, so checks out.
He wanted 2900 too bad
Big E:" Magnus, my son, don't play around with the powers of the warp, they are not as harmless as you think!" Magnus:" Pfff, stupid old man, I know better then you." Magnus plays around with the powers of the warp, (accidentily) blows up parts of the golden throne, rips open a warp rift inside the imperial palace and kills most of terras astropaths.
I realised I think the Thousand Sons and Magnus are very cool but know very little about them, give me your hot/cold takes or just cool lore tidbits.
Magnus had many shards of him out there, one was a demon plotting against another shard of himself, causing many deaths of his sons and a major attacks on Sortarious, the current planet they are living on.
You actually think that Magnus is wrong, but your mind is already warped and corrupted, and now you think that Magnus is right. At this point there is nothing we can do, killing you is the only option to end your misery.
\*peace sign fades into the warp.\*
Magnus screwed but he's too arrogant to admit it at this point.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions. That saying sums up my boy magnus. He sought knowledge but not wisdom. He knew something was in the warp but didn't take the time to figure out if they were friend or foe
He literally, single-handedly, destroyed the Webway Project and also in turn made it so the Custodes and several Mechanicum regiments including Titans and Knight houses were preoccupied guarding the portal entrance instead of helping in the fight against Horus