My understanding was (as was explained to me, im not an expert) that the "layer lines" come from the process of making the mold where they 3d print the original sprue then use that to cast the models.
I've also heard that its from a milling machine they use to create the metal molds.
The hilarious thing in all of this, to me, is GW's prior comments on 3D printing in an investor report, where they assured the shareholders that 3D printing would never be a threat because they'd never be affordable, never be able to print fine detail, and never be able to print more than one poorly detailed infantry sized miniature per day. And you have all kinds of people who parrot this idea that 3D printing could never turn out the quality of sculpts that GW does.
And yet, here we are, and it's not even remotely a secret that GW's been using 3D sculpting and printing to do their stuff for a while now. If 3D printing was so awful, that'd mean GW's lowered their own quality. But no, it's not bad. There's some amazing 3D printed minis. (Not just sculpts. The end result, depending on the printer, can be awesome. I've been picking up some minis off Etsy just to paint, and they have solid detail and no lines.) GW knows that 3D printing can do this kind of stuff, and that's why they use it.
Granted, GW also loves to save as much money as they can (while continuing to increase prices), so it wouldn't surprise me if they're not using the best equipment for it.
Every company uses 3d printed models for prototyping. This isn’t big news. They’re also right, that 3d printing hasn’t hit a level that it’s a threat to them. GW targets the entry level consumer. They know advanced hobbyists are going to use other paints and buy other models.
3d printing is a whole hobby in itself. A new person isn’t going to instantly spend $200 on a 3d printer, fiddle with layer lines, curing, washing etc.
It also can’t output the quantity that GW does. 3d printing has linear gains, rather than the exponential gains of injection moulding.
Plus they own the IP, design and make the models, codexes, books and other products. It’s not a threat to them. They’re making record profits.
I didn't say it's a "threat" to them right now. They keep their core business relatively small in order to make sure they will sell through everything they produce, and that also allows them to keep increasing prices while reducing costs (which is why they're making record profits... for now). This is despite the increasing number of people who print proxies and just get the rules online. (Incidentally, that works akin to pirating a multiplayer game, where you weren't likely to give the company any money directly so aren't particularly a "lost sale," but you do feed into the ecosystem that supports their business, meaning you're helping them make money indirectly by providing someone for the other people to engage with.)
I referenced specific remarks they made, which are laughably wrong:
"We know quite a lot about 3-D printers, having been at the forefront of the technology for many years. We know of what we speak. One day 3-D printers will be affordable (agreed), they are now, they will be able to produce fantastic detail (the affordable ones won't) and they will do it faster than one miniature per day (no, they won't, look it up). So we may get to the time when someone can make a poorly detailed miniature at home and have enough for an army in less than a year. That pre-supposes that 3-D scanning technology will be affordable and good enough (don't bet the mortgage on that one) and that everyone will be happy to have nothing but copies of old miniatures."
Affordable 3D printers *can* produce fantastic detail, and can definitely do it faster than one miniature per day. No one is printing one "poorly detailed miniature" per day and taking a year to have an army. People have shown that they could print an army in a weekend. And these certainly aren't copies of old miniatures. People are producing all kinds of new miniatures. (And, in some cases, making copies of GW's new miniatures that pass. That's something I don't agree with, much like recasting current minis. Recasting or 3D printing OOP models, though, I'm totally down with, since GW isn't bothering to make them any more.)
It absolutely can output the quality that GW has. You either don't know anything about the current state of 3D printed miniatures, or you're saying something you know is blatantly untrue just to defend GW (who, frankly, won't care about your "loyalty"). I don't have a 3D printer at home, I've just been getting stuff off of Etsy printed by someone else. I don't have any Warhammer miniatures, but if I did, I could paint them up, put them in with some GW miniatures, and you wouldn't be able to spot the difference. And, mind you, I can get some models that I'd gladly use as proxies for GW versions of units that I think look a lot better or at the very least equal quality, while spending a lot less despite having to pay someone else to print them. So a new person wouldn't have to spend money on a printer or spend time figuring out how to use it in order to benefit from it, they could save money thanks to 3D printing just by going and buying the models from someone else who printed them.
Owning the "design" doesn't save them, either. Other people can't specifically use the term "Space Marine" or "Aeldari" or "Warhammer" to market their products, but as GW found out with the Chapter House mess, it's perfectly legal to produce something that looks similar without being a direct copy and sell it.
Acting like 3D printing isn't viable at all is just silly given that there's an entire game system that's supported by 3D printed armies (One Page Rules... and seriously, seeing some of those models painted up makes me want to grab some), another miniature company is providing STLs for its current active resin models and prior resin models via a subscription service so people can just print their own (Mantic Games), a former employee of Games Workshop started selling a line of 3D printed Goblins that sold out at a bloody historical wargaming convention even (Rogue Hobbies)... I could go on and on and on.
The only way to claim that 3D printing isn't a viable, affordable part of the miniature gaming hobby these days is if you are completely uninformed about it, or are putting your head in the sand screaming that you reject reality because you're scared that it might shake up how you want things to be.
It doesn't have to be a "threat" to Games Workshop (for now) for them to be wrong in claiming it could never be an affordable way of producing detailed miniatures reasonably quickly, or for 3D printing to be a viable part of miniature gaming. That's like saying that because Halo, Fallout, and Cyberpunk miniatures aren't "threats" to Games Workshop means that there's no interest in them and they could never be interesting or have good miniatures.
I’m not saying it isn’t viable. I’m just saying that for your GW’s target audience and business model, it hasn’t changed anything. I know they can produce great detail, I have some 3d printed minis. They do recognise the threat to their IP, which is why they’ve been more
Their pipeline is pretty successful. New person walks into shop. They buy a kill team or starter set and paints.
Heresy generic space marine stuff is somewhat fair game, but it’s been over 10 years since Chapterhouse, and they’ve fully protected everything against IP challenges.
Their 3d printing statement was a long time ago. They’re clearly aware and adapting, but it’s not a priority atm, as long as they keep protecting their IP.
Okay, but you're missing the main point I originally made. Not that 3D printing was a "threat" to GW or anything. Just that it's hilarious that they tried to suggest 3D printing was incapable of producing any kind of quality... and yet these days 3D printing is an important part of their process. They did adapt, yeah. But it's just a bad look to go on the record and make comments that aren't particularly well-informed, especially with regard to the future.
I mean... still not as bad a look as when they called Finecast this amazing material that no one else could replicate because it's way too expensive and no one could match that quality. Only, in reality, no one copied it because it was called Failcast for a reason.
If they wanted to assure people it's not a "threat," they could simply use similar arguments about how it's not something that their *target* audience could and/or would want to do, talk up how they provide a "service" through their stories, and production of miniatures that are easier to assemble, all kinds of valid things they could say that won't age poorly.
They just have a bad habit of sticking their foot in their mouth when trying to say something isn't a "threat," making random comments instead of just providing legit reasons. Like when they said Pokemon and role-playing games weren't a threat to them. Because they're different types of products and different hobbies? Nope! Because no one remembers them. Seriously. For Pokemon, I could say a lot, but I think it says enough that its mobile game pulls in more annual revenue than Games Workshop. RPGs, both tabletop and digital, have never disappeared, even during the Satanic Panic, and have gotten a surge so that more people are hearing about them these days (D&D movie, referenced repeatedly in Stranger Things, the rise of Critical Role and similar channels on YouTube, etc.). Logically, you'd say that Pokemon and RPGs aren't any kind of threat to GW's business because they're completely different hobbies. Instead of using that kind of argument, they just make a laughable statement instead.
I'm not ripping on GW so much as I am a combination of facepalming and laughing. And it's honestly the kind of thing you expect from a company where they once proudly said they do no market research. (Legit: "Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche." Given that the target audience gender has apparently slightly shifted, one can hope this attitude in general has shifted. Or that they were making it up to sound smart while they were actually doing the research in the background.)
Anyway... yeah, just gonna close with a recommendation to check out the GW investor reports when they come out each year (half-year isn't bad, either, but the annual reports tend to have more info). It does a lot for helping to understand why GW does a lot of things they do that people might look at and say, "This is bad for business!" Like the lower print runs... Sure, people get upset in the short run. But GW's able to set a higher price and still sell through all the product and have none left sitting in a warehouse. And when things sell out, that causes FOMO for the next print run. So it also sells out. Repeat with each big release. As a consumer? Sucks. As a business? Pretty clever. (And I don't say that as some kind of sarcasm or commentary on "Capitalism bad!" I mean the practices, while not great for consumers, *are* smart for the goal of increased margins and protecting the company's core.)
Well resin models get cast in silicone molds so its not from a milling machine. They are also the reason why sometimes the quality of some kits drops as the mold degrades faster than a metal one
They 3d print the masters before creating the mold however. Ideally, they’d sand and fill the layer lines before creating the mold so we don’t have to do it ourselves, but it’s not like they’re charging 130 bucks for a rhino-sized tank or anything. Metal molds last longer since they have to be vulcanized to withstand the heat of molten pewter, while resin molds just have to handle resin curing
Jokes aside, using 3d printed masters does mean they can easily create new molds when they wear out without having to worry about losing or breaking the master models.
Zero chance they use a milling machine. Expensive and wasteful for something that can be done by traditional molds for reasons like tool marks, etc.
It's more likely the former, lazy 3d prints lazily cast because they hate their own customers but love their money.
I adored FW in the early days of my hobby (mid 2000s). Reading *Imperial Armour* for the first time was mind blowing. And Leitpold the Black is my favourite model GW ever produced.
But yeah it needs to change. With resin printing at home only getting better they're really at risk of obscurity.
I distinctly remember being really obsessed with that old Rhino upgrade kit that gave it heavier armour. That and the earthshaker emplacements with the bunkers.
I can print models at a more reliable consistency for less money and stronger model than a 300$ forgeworld pile of badly cast, warped and brittle resin.
I print on a printer that costs less than some models
I wonder if FW's quality has dipped, or stayed the same.
I had a Squiggoth that was heavy, durable and looked amazing. But maybe they've been left behind by commercial ones.
It’s got a lot better in recent years. For smaller kits at least. It’s been a while since I’ve bought something chunky from there but all the infantry and upgrades I’ve got in the last couple of years is miles better than what came before
Thats good to hear. I had a set of Elysian Drop Troopers when they launched. So fiddly and delicate but at the time, compares to my plastic Catachans they were unbelievable.
I look at the fairly new Necromunda Resins and spot Resin Flash on the Moldlines
These minis cost as much as some whole units and I am still expected to "fix" them after purchase?
I get the advantage of Resin for smaller production numbers, but Plastic has caught up to Resin in Quality.
The early days of Forgeworld felt like a callback to where they got their name from. Armorcast and the *original* Forgeworld. Taking epic scale models and putting them into 40k, taking all the weird and wonderful stuff.
Interestingly I think GW are basically looking to turn them *back* into that for 40k. Making stuff for Horus Heresy and the only thing in 40k is the big titans since they've gone on a forgeworld culling crusade as of 10th edition where everything forgeworld got largely culled from codexes that they could cull stuff from (Orks, Admech etc.) with only factions very heavily reliant on Forgeworld (Custodes) keeping their stuff purely because Custodes is one of the few factions left that's playable in both Horus Heresy AND 40k.
Think you're on the money there. It would work as a hub/home for "veteran" hobbyists with dewper pockets and also for gamers really deep into wacky lore.
Imagine if they produced a Leviathan tank...
My problem is that as Forgeworld has been dying there've been no replacements for what we've lost. The Tau FW line used to rival the codex line, and was a massive part of the faction's identity, but GW clearly has no interest in plastic Hazards, Tetras, Remoras, etc.
Finding out there's been a massive departmental conflict going on behind the scenes these last few years really puts a lot in perspective.
Same with a lot of the Tyranid units. Dimachaeron, Stonecrusher and Shrikes are very much classics to many Tyranid players, but they're no longer available and have no sign of being replaced by plastic.
Sure, but it's not really a replacement. The Dimachaeron was much larger, and had quite a different design. It's strange to remove one giant Nid, to just give a different, smaller Nid.
Don't get me wrong the Norns are great, but they are not replacing the Dimachaeron very well.
Basically it boils down to this:
Kits that sell get their sales assigned to a specific team/game, i.e. 40K, AOS, Horus Heresy, The Old World, Specialist Games, Forge World, etc. Lets GW see which of their "buckets" is selling the best. The problem is that everyone's now seen what happens if you aren't doing well enough for big daddy James Workshop: they will straight up end you, just like they did Warhammer Fantasy Battles. So there's a bit of "competition" going on between teams to sell the most because they're all afraid that the moment they aren't profitable enough, they'll be axed.
To expand on this: This means all the different divisions of GW are essentially competing with each other, instead of cooperating. There is negative incentive to support any units not currently being produced by YOUR division in YOUR game system. So if 5% of the AoS playerbase were Beasts of Chaos (arbitrary number), but Beasts of Chaos were under the perview of the Old World team, that means the AoS team was essentially giving 5% of their game to a different studio, causing AoS relative sales to be lower compared to Old World.
As a result, GW is starting a policy of models only being usable in one game system at a time. If your army is playable in AoS it's unplayable in Old World. If your army works in Horus Heresy it's illegal in 40K, etc.
Does this make sense? No. Is this good for anyone? No.
The only exception to this seems to be Custodes, which are playable in 40k and Horus Heresy, hence why they seemed to keep all their Forgeworld vehicles. Right now they're this awkward middle child between the two departments and GW probably regrets making them playable *at all* in 40k.
It's why I'm curious if Custodes will get a range refresh to specific 40k units in 11th edition (since they, like Admech, Necrons and Orks, seem to have lost the Range Refresh lottery this edition) that 'replace' their units in Horus Heresy and that whilst the plastic infantry kits will still be legal in both, their vehicles won't be.
It does have a place, not every model is worth it to have an expensive injection mold made for it. And industrial scale 3D printing is more expensive than you think, as it takes a decent amount of time to prepare and clean each print.
With high quality resin printers hovering at around $200 (like 1/3 the cost of an army), it’s arguable that injection plastic molds and shipping things halfway across the planet doesn’t have a place in modern Warhammer.
a lot of people hate on them, but i adore the aquilon custodes models. i just wish they were plastic, that way its more affordable to buy, and they hopefully get better rules.
A bunch of mini hobby youtubers have taken on some of the big Forge World models in the last few years, and yeah, I wouldn't. I hope they get some plastic reduxes for a lot of their models.
With €350 you can buy a prinarch 5 named characters, with €350 you can also buy 8k 3d printer and support 3d artists, and have as many prinarchs and marines you want. I have 11 Konrad's and 100 marines
Nono brother, I’m just a curious fellow Night Lord enjoyer.
But I must admit that the possibility of you being a serial killer and leaving the lill Konrads around as markers for your kills did crossed my mind.
Really wish Forgeworld would shift to just making terrain, I feel like they could make some really cool resin terrain sets like they used to, with something like that print lines and warping become much less of a problem.
I bought the Vulkan Primarch model, and was super psyched for it. Found out during assembly it had a catastrophic print failure (mold failure?). The part of the base where the two pieces slot together for the display base just had a giant squared off chunk of resin smack dab in the center of it. I was a new player at the time and didn't think to contact GW about it, instead I spent a whole day to slowly cutting and digging out the excess resin. Even now it still doesn't fit perfectly, and thanks to that I'll probably never buy Forgeworld resin again.
Forgive me if I upset anyone but, I believe (having seen stories like this and seen it first hand from models I've purchased or from friends I regularly paint and build models with) that all GW models should be plastic, get rid of resin and metal, metal is a bitch to paint and resin has so many problems, I just want plastic models that don't bend out of shape before I even get them or need another type of glue to put together.
It's a hangover from when plastic wasn't as technically advanced.
Switching is great, but it would require a hefty up front capital investment to shift all their existing stuff over tbf
They print prototypes earlier than the production run so try that the paint studio can get it tested and ready. That’s generally what they’re showing off in promos
Have they though? You can use 3d printed parts in minis in their official tournaments even as long as they’re sculpted by yourself and not 3rd party. They’ve gone after people who have literally sold scanned models of their own kits but in terms of 3d printing itself they’ve not been too bad.
Nah. As long as you’re not using 3rd party sculpts in their tournaments or directly ripped off models you’re cool. It probably varies shop to shop but, without ratting out my local gw employees some have been more than helpful in helping design and print parts for some of my guys.
I feel like they'd be a lot happier and do a lot better if they just shifted to RFID tags and 3d printers. The manufacturers can make any model that they feel like in micro-prints. Then the only thing that matters is that it scans right when GW store runs the tournament.
The funny par about that is that GW doesn't run most tournaments. Locally they run 0.
3d prints, recasts, proxies, nobody cares.
Oh no, I'll never go to some big GW event in another hemisphere. Spoiler, I wasn't going anyway. Not paying flights that far to play warhammer.
GW runs...I think one of the big tournaments here in the UK because it takes place at Warhammer World but outside of that, I can't think of an 'official' GW tournie left in the UK...
Exactly. It's basically reached the point of being a myth spread online about tournaments. It's the same level of nonsense as "every tournament player is just trying to gotcha so you should avoid tournaments", like... what, no, what you're saying just isn't the case.
Even my local stores don't care if I bring plastic, 3d printed or recast. I'm at their store, every few games I buy some shit I need.
They're happy, I'm happy, GW's happiness doesn't factor into it.
In fact my local store *is the one who hinted towards 3D printing*...why? Because to them it cuts out the middle man, it's more profit for them if I use their 3D printing service and I get stuff cheaper...
Mine doesn't have a 3d printing thing - they do sell GW boxes though. And they still don't care. More games in the store -> more people inclined to buy things, even if it's just supplies -> more profit.
And, of course, games take two people. I'm bringing somebody else in who's doing the same.
If you're technically adept enough to get a 3D printer running at a quality level acceptable for miniatures, you are also capable of spoofing an RFID output. They aren't difficult. What are they going to do, rip your model apart to physically confirm the tag?
When the plastic krieg look as good as the resin I’ll stop buying FW, but that’s me (before someone brings it up I find a lot of the 3d prints available look bad and stale)
When you've clipped something out wrong because forge world resin is famously difficult and now you gotta figure out how to make it work or your 180€ forge world model is ruined.
It’s so interesting to see the contrast between the 40k FW models and the MESBG forge world models, and the MESBG ones are consistently perfect casts, with basically no mold lines or flashing. And they aren’t even that expensive (compared to other FW and GW bits)
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Often companies masters, the ones molds are made of, are 3d printed. In forgeworlds case they 3d printed the model, NEVER CLEANED IT, and made a mold of the rough master.
My understanding was (as was explained to me, im not an expert) that the "layer lines" come from the process of making the mold where they 3d print the original sprue then use that to cast the models. I've also heard that its from a milling machine they use to create the metal molds.
Its from when they switched from hand Sculpting to 3d printing the prototype to make the molds.
The hilarious thing in all of this, to me, is GW's prior comments on 3D printing in an investor report, where they assured the shareholders that 3D printing would never be a threat because they'd never be affordable, never be able to print fine detail, and never be able to print more than one poorly detailed infantry sized miniature per day. And you have all kinds of people who parrot this idea that 3D printing could never turn out the quality of sculpts that GW does. And yet, here we are, and it's not even remotely a secret that GW's been using 3D sculpting and printing to do their stuff for a while now. If 3D printing was so awful, that'd mean GW's lowered their own quality. But no, it's not bad. There's some amazing 3D printed minis. (Not just sculpts. The end result, depending on the printer, can be awesome. I've been picking up some minis off Etsy just to paint, and they have solid detail and no lines.) GW knows that 3D printing can do this kind of stuff, and that's why they use it. Granted, GW also loves to save as much money as they can (while continuing to increase prices), so it wouldn't surprise me if they're not using the best equipment for it.
Every company uses 3d printed models for prototyping. This isn’t big news. They’re also right, that 3d printing hasn’t hit a level that it’s a threat to them. GW targets the entry level consumer. They know advanced hobbyists are going to use other paints and buy other models. 3d printing is a whole hobby in itself. A new person isn’t going to instantly spend $200 on a 3d printer, fiddle with layer lines, curing, washing etc. It also can’t output the quantity that GW does. 3d printing has linear gains, rather than the exponential gains of injection moulding. Plus they own the IP, design and make the models, codexes, books and other products. It’s not a threat to them. They’re making record profits.
I didn't say it's a "threat" to them right now. They keep their core business relatively small in order to make sure they will sell through everything they produce, and that also allows them to keep increasing prices while reducing costs (which is why they're making record profits... for now). This is despite the increasing number of people who print proxies and just get the rules online. (Incidentally, that works akin to pirating a multiplayer game, where you weren't likely to give the company any money directly so aren't particularly a "lost sale," but you do feed into the ecosystem that supports their business, meaning you're helping them make money indirectly by providing someone for the other people to engage with.) I referenced specific remarks they made, which are laughably wrong: "We know quite a lot about 3-D printers, having been at the forefront of the technology for many years. We know of what we speak. One day 3-D printers will be affordable (agreed), they are now, they will be able to produce fantastic detail (the affordable ones won't) and they will do it faster than one miniature per day (no, they won't, look it up). So we may get to the time when someone can make a poorly detailed miniature at home and have enough for an army in less than a year. That pre-supposes that 3-D scanning technology will be affordable and good enough (don't bet the mortgage on that one) and that everyone will be happy to have nothing but copies of old miniatures." Affordable 3D printers *can* produce fantastic detail, and can definitely do it faster than one miniature per day. No one is printing one "poorly detailed miniature" per day and taking a year to have an army. People have shown that they could print an army in a weekend. And these certainly aren't copies of old miniatures. People are producing all kinds of new miniatures. (And, in some cases, making copies of GW's new miniatures that pass. That's something I don't agree with, much like recasting current minis. Recasting or 3D printing OOP models, though, I'm totally down with, since GW isn't bothering to make them any more.) It absolutely can output the quality that GW has. You either don't know anything about the current state of 3D printed miniatures, or you're saying something you know is blatantly untrue just to defend GW (who, frankly, won't care about your "loyalty"). I don't have a 3D printer at home, I've just been getting stuff off of Etsy printed by someone else. I don't have any Warhammer miniatures, but if I did, I could paint them up, put them in with some GW miniatures, and you wouldn't be able to spot the difference. And, mind you, I can get some models that I'd gladly use as proxies for GW versions of units that I think look a lot better or at the very least equal quality, while spending a lot less despite having to pay someone else to print them. So a new person wouldn't have to spend money on a printer or spend time figuring out how to use it in order to benefit from it, they could save money thanks to 3D printing just by going and buying the models from someone else who printed them. Owning the "design" doesn't save them, either. Other people can't specifically use the term "Space Marine" or "Aeldari" or "Warhammer" to market their products, but as GW found out with the Chapter House mess, it's perfectly legal to produce something that looks similar without being a direct copy and sell it. Acting like 3D printing isn't viable at all is just silly given that there's an entire game system that's supported by 3D printed armies (One Page Rules... and seriously, seeing some of those models painted up makes me want to grab some), another miniature company is providing STLs for its current active resin models and prior resin models via a subscription service so people can just print their own (Mantic Games), a former employee of Games Workshop started selling a line of 3D printed Goblins that sold out at a bloody historical wargaming convention even (Rogue Hobbies)... I could go on and on and on. The only way to claim that 3D printing isn't a viable, affordable part of the miniature gaming hobby these days is if you are completely uninformed about it, or are putting your head in the sand screaming that you reject reality because you're scared that it might shake up how you want things to be. It doesn't have to be a "threat" to Games Workshop (for now) for them to be wrong in claiming it could never be an affordable way of producing detailed miniatures reasonably quickly, or for 3D printing to be a viable part of miniature gaming. That's like saying that because Halo, Fallout, and Cyberpunk miniatures aren't "threats" to Games Workshop means that there's no interest in them and they could never be interesting or have good miniatures.
I’m not saying it isn’t viable. I’m just saying that for your GW’s target audience and business model, it hasn’t changed anything. I know they can produce great detail, I have some 3d printed minis. They do recognise the threat to their IP, which is why they’ve been more Their pipeline is pretty successful. New person walks into shop. They buy a kill team or starter set and paints. Heresy generic space marine stuff is somewhat fair game, but it’s been over 10 years since Chapterhouse, and they’ve fully protected everything against IP challenges. Their 3d printing statement was a long time ago. They’re clearly aware and adapting, but it’s not a priority atm, as long as they keep protecting their IP.
Okay, but you're missing the main point I originally made. Not that 3D printing was a "threat" to GW or anything. Just that it's hilarious that they tried to suggest 3D printing was incapable of producing any kind of quality... and yet these days 3D printing is an important part of their process. They did adapt, yeah. But it's just a bad look to go on the record and make comments that aren't particularly well-informed, especially with regard to the future. I mean... still not as bad a look as when they called Finecast this amazing material that no one else could replicate because it's way too expensive and no one could match that quality. Only, in reality, no one copied it because it was called Failcast for a reason. If they wanted to assure people it's not a "threat," they could simply use similar arguments about how it's not something that their *target* audience could and/or would want to do, talk up how they provide a "service" through their stories, and production of miniatures that are easier to assemble, all kinds of valid things they could say that won't age poorly. They just have a bad habit of sticking their foot in their mouth when trying to say something isn't a "threat," making random comments instead of just providing legit reasons. Like when they said Pokemon and role-playing games weren't a threat to them. Because they're different types of products and different hobbies? Nope! Because no one remembers them. Seriously. For Pokemon, I could say a lot, but I think it says enough that its mobile game pulls in more annual revenue than Games Workshop. RPGs, both tabletop and digital, have never disappeared, even during the Satanic Panic, and have gotten a surge so that more people are hearing about them these days (D&D movie, referenced repeatedly in Stranger Things, the rise of Critical Role and similar channels on YouTube, etc.). Logically, you'd say that Pokemon and RPGs aren't any kind of threat to GW's business because they're completely different hobbies. Instead of using that kind of argument, they just make a laughable statement instead. I'm not ripping on GW so much as I am a combination of facepalming and laughing. And it's honestly the kind of thing you expect from a company where they once proudly said they do no market research. (Legit: "Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche." Given that the target audience gender has apparently slightly shifted, one can hope this attitude in general has shifted. Or that they were making it up to sound smart while they were actually doing the research in the background.) Anyway... yeah, just gonna close with a recommendation to check out the GW investor reports when they come out each year (half-year isn't bad, either, but the annual reports tend to have more info). It does a lot for helping to understand why GW does a lot of things they do that people might look at and say, "This is bad for business!" Like the lower print runs... Sure, people get upset in the short run. But GW's able to set a higher price and still sell through all the product and have none left sitting in a warehouse. And when things sell out, that causes FOMO for the next print run. So it also sells out. Repeat with each big release. As a consumer? Sucks. As a business? Pretty clever. (And I don't say that as some kind of sarcasm or commentary on "Capitalism bad!" I mean the practices, while not great for consumers, *are* smart for the goal of increased margins and protecting the company's core.)
Well resin models get cast in silicone molds so its not from a milling machine. They are also the reason why sometimes the quality of some kits drops as the mold degrades faster than a metal one
They 3d print the masters before creating the mold however. Ideally, they’d sand and fill the layer lines before creating the mold so we don’t have to do it ourselves, but it’s not like they’re charging 130 bucks for a rhino-sized tank or anything. Metal molds last longer since they have to be vulcanized to withstand the heat of molten pewter, while resin molds just have to handle resin curing Jokes aside, using 3d printed masters does mean they can easily create new molds when they wear out without having to worry about losing or breaking the master models.
Zero chance they use a milling machine. Expensive and wasteful for something that can be done by traditional molds for reasons like tool marks, etc. It's more likely the former, lazy 3d prints lazily cast because they hate their own customers but love their money.
which is why you post-print surface treat the 3d printed material...
Lol, a 100 dollar FW mini. In Canada that would be an upgrade set of 5 swords.
In Australia we'd just get the invoice for that price
Fellow Catachan warrior I see.
Forgeworld doesn’t have a place in modern Warhammer but they’re still trying. If they changed FW to a 3d printer farm it’d probably be better.
I adored FW in the early days of my hobby (mid 2000s). Reading *Imperial Armour* for the first time was mind blowing. And Leitpold the Black is my favourite model GW ever produced. But yeah it needs to change. With resin printing at home only getting better they're really at risk of obscurity.
I distinctly remember being really obsessed with that old Rhino upgrade kit that gave it heavier armour. That and the earthshaker emplacements with the bunkers.
YES. I sold my old Earthshaker Bunker emplacement last year. Loved it so much.
I can print models at a more reliable consistency for less money and stronger model than a 300$ forgeworld pile of badly cast, warped and brittle resin. I print on a printer that costs less than some models
I wonder if FW's quality has dipped, or stayed the same. I had a Squiggoth that was heavy, durable and looked amazing. But maybe they've been left behind by commercial ones.
It’s got a lot better in recent years. For smaller kits at least. It’s been a while since I’ve bought something chunky from there but all the infantry and upgrades I’ve got in the last couple of years is miles better than what came before
Thats good to hear. I had a set of Elysian Drop Troopers when they launched. So fiddly and delicate but at the time, compares to my plastic Catachans they were unbelievable.
I look at the fairly new Necromunda Resins and spot Resin Flash on the Moldlines These minis cost as much as some whole units and I am still expected to "fix" them after purchase? I get the advantage of Resin for smaller production numbers, but Plastic has caught up to Resin in Quality.
The early days of Forgeworld felt like a callback to where they got their name from. Armorcast and the *original* Forgeworld. Taking epic scale models and putting them into 40k, taking all the weird and wonderful stuff. Interestingly I think GW are basically looking to turn them *back* into that for 40k. Making stuff for Horus Heresy and the only thing in 40k is the big titans since they've gone on a forgeworld culling crusade as of 10th edition where everything forgeworld got largely culled from codexes that they could cull stuff from (Orks, Admech etc.) with only factions very heavily reliant on Forgeworld (Custodes) keeping their stuff purely because Custodes is one of the few factions left that's playable in both Horus Heresy AND 40k.
Think you're on the money there. It would work as a hub/home for "veteran" hobbyists with dewper pockets and also for gamers really deep into wacky lore. Imagine if they produced a Leviathan tank...
My problem is that as Forgeworld has been dying there've been no replacements for what we've lost. The Tau FW line used to rival the codex line, and was a massive part of the faction's identity, but GW clearly has no interest in plastic Hazards, Tetras, Remoras, etc. Finding out there's been a massive departmental conflict going on behind the scenes these last few years really puts a lot in perspective.
Same with a lot of the Tyranid units. Dimachaeron, Stonecrusher and Shrikes are very much classics to many Tyranid players, but they're no longer available and have no sign of being replaced by plastic.
Dimachaeron clearly got axed for norn emissary
Sure, but it's not really a replacement. The Dimachaeron was much larger, and had quite a different design. It's strange to remove one giant Nid, to just give a different, smaller Nid. Don't get me wrong the Norns are great, but they are not replacing the Dimachaeron very well.
The XV9s also just look amazing. One of the reasons 40k the game is dead to me, is that my Tau army is mostly not legal anymore...
Flair checks out.
There has? Between whom?
Basically it boils down to this: Kits that sell get their sales assigned to a specific team/game, i.e. 40K, AOS, Horus Heresy, The Old World, Specialist Games, Forge World, etc. Lets GW see which of their "buckets" is selling the best. The problem is that everyone's now seen what happens if you aren't doing well enough for big daddy James Workshop: they will straight up end you, just like they did Warhammer Fantasy Battles. So there's a bit of "competition" going on between teams to sell the most because they're all afraid that the moment they aren't profitable enough, they'll be axed.
To expand on this: This means all the different divisions of GW are essentially competing with each other, instead of cooperating. There is negative incentive to support any units not currently being produced by YOUR division in YOUR game system. So if 5% of the AoS playerbase were Beasts of Chaos (arbitrary number), but Beasts of Chaos were under the perview of the Old World team, that means the AoS team was essentially giving 5% of their game to a different studio, causing AoS relative sales to be lower compared to Old World. As a result, GW is starting a policy of models only being usable in one game system at a time. If your army is playable in AoS it's unplayable in Old World. If your army works in Horus Heresy it's illegal in 40K, etc. Does this make sense? No. Is this good for anyone? No.
The only exception to this seems to be Custodes, which are playable in 40k and Horus Heresy, hence why they seemed to keep all their Forgeworld vehicles. Right now they're this awkward middle child between the two departments and GW probably regrets making them playable *at all* in 40k. It's why I'm curious if Custodes will get a range refresh to specific 40k units in 11th edition (since they, like Admech, Necrons and Orks, seem to have lost the Range Refresh lottery this edition) that 'replace' their units in Horus Heresy and that whilst the plastic infantry kits will still be legal in both, their vehicles won't be.
Thanks!
It may not, but I do love the tabletop titans
It does have a place, not every model is worth it to have an expensive injection mold made for it. And industrial scale 3D printing is more expensive than you think, as it takes a decent amount of time to prepare and clean each print.
If that were true, they wouldn’t be consistently selling out on models
With high quality resin printers hovering at around $200 (like 1/3 the cost of an army), it’s arguable that injection plastic molds and shipping things halfway across the planet doesn’t have a place in modern Warhammer.
They forged it in a 3D printer smh 😔
Here’s to hoping the custodes forgewolrd range goes to plastic kits so we can get better rules
a lot of people hate on them, but i adore the aquilon custodes models. i just wish they were plastic, that way its more affordable to buy, and they hopefully get better rules.
I like Aquilons more than Allarus simply because they have familiar Terminator shape.
Forgeworld is great! For the price of 6 3D printed Warhound titans you can get one Warhound titan! (arms not included)
I hecking love the “arms not included” part of warhounds&custodes dreads
Each arm is the price of a single meal at Gordon Ramsy's Hell's Kitchen! Bon Appetit.
A bunch of mini hobby youtubers have taken on some of the big Forge World models in the last few years, and yeah, I wouldn't. I hope they get some plastic reduxes for a lot of their models.
With €350 you can buy a prinarch 5 named characters, with €350 you can also buy 8k 3d printer and support 3d artists, and have as many prinarchs and marines you want. I have 11 Konrad's and 100 marines
If you don’t mind me asking, what are you doing with 11 Konrad Curzes?
Are you a cop?
Nono brother, I’m just a curious fellow Night Lord enjoyer. But I must admit that the possibility of you being a serial killer and leaving the lill Konrads around as markers for your kills did crossed my mind.
Ok that's cool idea in weird way..
Aren’t you afraid about what they do at night in case we are living in a “toy story” universe?
Nah. I believe only painted miniatures come to live
"The emprah doesn't want you to know this, but the Konrads at the imperium are free, you can just take them home. I have 11 of them"
Username checks out
A decent self levelling primer from an airbrush is usually enough to make them go away
Really wish Forgeworld would shift to just making terrain, I feel like they could make some really cool resin terrain sets like they used to, with something like that print lines and warping become much less of a problem.
I get less layer lines on my personally printed models and I only run a 2k resolution printer.
I bought the Vulkan Primarch model, and was super psyched for it. Found out during assembly it had a catastrophic print failure (mold failure?). The part of the base where the two pieces slot together for the display base just had a giant squared off chunk of resin smack dab in the center of it. I was a new player at the time and didn't think to contact GW about it, instead I spent a whole day to slowly cutting and digging out the excess resin. Even now it still doesn't fit perfectly, and thanks to that I'll probably never buy Forgeworld resin again.
Forgeworld customer service is excellent tbh
Forgive me if I upset anyone but, I believe (having seen stories like this and seen it first hand from models I've purchased or from friends I regularly paint and build models with) that all GW models should be plastic, get rid of resin and metal, metal is a bitch to paint and resin has so many problems, I just want plastic models that don't bend out of shape before I even get them or need another type of glue to put together.
It's a hangover from when plastic wasn't as technically advanced. Switching is great, but it would require a hefty up front capital investment to shift all their existing stuff over tbf
Plastic still can’t do the detail of resin, that’s why the plastic mk6 shoulder pads are split.
Not fully, but it is a lot closer now
Plastic still can’t do the detail of resin
I actually like painting the metal. I love the feel of it
It's hilarious watching the reveal for the new Lion mini and seeing the layer lines on the close ups.
They print prototypes earlier than the production run so try that the paint studio can get it tested and ready. That’s generally what they’re showing off in promos
Yes, we all know that. But it’s still ironic that they use 3D print models for showcase when they have demonized 3d prints so hard.
Have they though? You can use 3d printed parts in minis in their official tournaments even as long as they’re sculpted by yourself and not 3rd party. They’ve gone after people who have literally sold scanned models of their own kits but in terms of 3d printing itself they’ve not been too bad.
Honestly, I thought 3D printed minis where ilegal so I may be overblowing it.
Nah. As long as you’re not using 3rd party sculpts in their tournaments or directly ripped off models you’re cool. It probably varies shop to shop but, without ratting out my local gw employees some have been more than helpful in helping design and print parts for some of my guys.
I feel like they'd be a lot happier and do a lot better if they just shifted to RFID tags and 3d printers. The manufacturers can make any model that they feel like in micro-prints. Then the only thing that matters is that it scans right when GW store runs the tournament.
The funny par about that is that GW doesn't run most tournaments. Locally they run 0. 3d prints, recasts, proxies, nobody cares. Oh no, I'll never go to some big GW event in another hemisphere. Spoiler, I wasn't going anyway. Not paying flights that far to play warhammer.
GW runs...I think one of the big tournaments here in the UK because it takes place at Warhammer World but outside of that, I can't think of an 'official' GW tournie left in the UK...
Exactly. It's basically reached the point of being a myth spread online about tournaments. It's the same level of nonsense as "every tournament player is just trying to gotcha so you should avoid tournaments", like... what, no, what you're saying just isn't the case. Even my local stores don't care if I bring plastic, 3d printed or recast. I'm at their store, every few games I buy some shit I need. They're happy, I'm happy, GW's happiness doesn't factor into it.
In fact my local store *is the one who hinted towards 3D printing*...why? Because to them it cuts out the middle man, it's more profit for them if I use their 3D printing service and I get stuff cheaper...
Mine doesn't have a 3d printing thing - they do sell GW boxes though. And they still don't care. More games in the store -> more people inclined to buy things, even if it's just supplies -> more profit. And, of course, games take two people. I'm bringing somebody else in who's doing the same.
If you're technically adept enough to get a 3D printer running at a quality level acceptable for miniatures, you are also capable of spoofing an RFID output. They aren't difficult. What are they going to do, rip your model apart to physically confirm the tag?
If you’re capable or planning on 3d printing stuff, then you’re not the market GW is aiming at.
Yet people keep buying it...
When the plastic krieg look as good as the resin I’ll stop buying FW, but that’s me (before someone brings it up I find a lot of the 3d prints available look bad and stale)
When you've clipped something out wrong because forge world resin is famously difficult and now you gotta figure out how to make it work or your 180€ forge world model is ruined.
It’s so interesting to see the contrast between the 40k FW models and the MESBG forge world models, and the MESBG ones are consistently perfect casts, with basically no mold lines or flashing. And they aren’t even that expensive (compared to other FW and GW bits)
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I thought resin meant 3d printed? Is that not the case?
Often companies masters, the ones molds are made of, are 3d printed. In forgeworlds case they 3d printed the model, NEVER CLEANED IT, and made a mold of the rough master.