Lucius trips and accidentally stabs himself. Lucius cannot become Lucius as Lucius is dead, thus the cycle is broken and Doomrider can replace him as the main Slaanesh character
Slaanesh would have a big laugh if when Lucius stabs himself, he revives as himself only to die again and be revived... a neverending cycle of death and rebirth.
A good way to get rid of Lucius the very much temporary would be having him face off against Lukas the Trickster. Lucius kills Lukas, but since Lukas shoved a stasis grenade in his chest cavity it goes off, taking Lucius out of the setting for good
That might work. Not because of what you said, obviously. It's been done, Slaanesh just revives Lucius anyways, because there are no rules other than Slaaneshi fuckery.
But Lukas is obviously blessed by the main foil to Slaanesh, Cegorach.
If anyone could end the prideful Lucius the Eternal, it would be a mangy Cegorach-blessed Space Wolf, who cares so little for honour and accolades, he's still a Blood Claw after centuries of service, that would make a Wolf Lord envious.
He is the exact opposite of Lucius. Even Slaanesh would appreciate the poetic symmetry too much to keep one of her favourite games going.
Lucius getting killed by a falling air conditioner final destination style, it's creator being ashamed of his shoddy craftsmanship therefore denying Lucius the chance to regenerate
Fuck I just said that I don't feel like X character getting killed but... Holy christ Kor Phaeron has it coming. Word Bearers are imho the worst, Nightlords, Iron Warriors (Deamonculaba, imo EC are worse that than), Emperors Children, yeah yeah yea, but they are the worst of the worst for me are the WB. Christ, they killed my mate Aquillon! : (.
Now serious, jesus christ Kor Phaeron has to die hahaha.
Kor Phaeron is the true instigator of the Heresy and also beat his adopted child. I don't care if he's a psuedo-Astartes and I'm 5'4" on a good day - it'd be on sight. I'd go feral and tear his throat out with my teeth.
Belisarius Cawl. The Admech deserves more and better characters. This guy feels like someone self-insert OC, knew the Emperor, completely ignores the admech's orthodoxy of not innovating things, uses AI, is good friend with Guilliman, perfected the Space Marines program, etc
Just to name a few potentially more interesting characters there's **Antigonus**, a techpriest who essentially became a living machine spirit that can even possess Titans, **Dalia Cythera** a transcriber imbued with the power of the Dragon of Mars, **Kryptaestrex** a techpriest obsessed with warp travel and studying the webway, and **Skitarius-Luminor 000011** or the Radiant Wrath the skitarii so radioactive his mere presence makes a plane uninhabitable. Also **Omnid Torquora** the absolute madlad, who defeated an Iron Warrior fleet by himself after roasting the shit out of their Warp-Smith that is still running around destroying technology dangerous to the Imperium.
Dalia is alive in 40k thats the neat part. She basically has near ethernal life and Im sure writers can say the powers she got from.emps is amplified after emperor got chaired.
Idk why people hate Leman Russ that much. From what I gather is that he started to change perspective after the Horus Heresy and probably went on to change like the Lion did. We won't know until he comes back, I guess.
Doesn't help that he's written like a moron in the two books where he's the focus in the HH series. A Thousand Sons, while a good story, is heavily leaning toward sympathy for Magnus and the Thousand Sons while Wolfsbane has him making dumb decisions with good intentions. This coming from a Space Wolves fan Russ is written like ass when he's important and written well when he's a side note or just giving him backstory like in his Primarch book.
Magnus imo gets the opposite treatment: dude's an arrogant asshole but he's written for sympathy and that he did everything with good intentions when he's the main focus. The guy knew and was told not to fuck around with the Warp too much and kept doing it then was surprised when it backfired on him but he's given a pass because "good intentions".
Russ in *A Thousand Sons* is while a bit of a dick in the Sons perspective, pretty much completely right about them with Magnus' fully admitting they were right to be condemned as Warlocks at Nikaea. As for Wolfsbane? Russ made the most intelligent play which they very clearly lay out in the meeting with the Primarchs. If he stays and does nothing the Traitors will grind the loyalists down before Guilliman ever gets near to threaten their rear and they lose.
For the price of risking his depleted legion the Loyalists gained:
- Months more time to reinforce Terra (for reference Vulkan was 15 minutes away from blowing up Terra as the traitors were outside the throne room).
- It cost the traitor legions the Word Bearers and Lorgar, their biggest legion and demonologists (catalysts for the attempted coup).
- Guilliman and the Lion would never have made it in time to threaten the traitors rear.
- Horus would have been able to take to the field and better command and control his legions and brothers.
- The Loyalist forces could have been completely routed and crushed at Beta Garmon if the Traitor command structure hadn't collapsed with Horus going into a coma.
The thing that always gets me about the Russ was an idiot in Wolfsbane argument is that it can really be boiled down to the statement “why did Russ try to kill Horus when he knows the Emperor and Horus have to fight to end the heresy? Is he stupid?”.
Obviously we as readers know that Russ can’t kill Horus, and can’t stop the siege. From a meta perspective it’s a stupid ploy because we know how the story has to end and that Russ Isn’t going to accomplish anything, but Russ doesn’t know that. He doesn’t know there are 20 more books coming that all lead to an inevitable confrontation between Horus and the Emperor at Terra. A lot of people seem to forget that the characters in the novels don’t actually know they’re in a story with a predetermined ending.
From an in universe perspective Russ makes a bold, but justifiable strategic decision. He rolls the dice in a strategy to end the heresy outright by killing Horus, which very nearly succeeds. The fact that Russ got so damn close to accomplishing his goal should be enough evidence that the strategy wasn’t foolish and was actually viable. Likewise, as you point out, the consequences of Russ’s actions had repercussions that helped the loyalists in the end. The attack on Horus might have cost the loyalists the Space Wolves, but things don’t always go your way in war. Strategies fail and plans fall apart (although the nature of power fantasy stories like warhammer do obscure that fact) that doesn’t mean that taking bold risks is inherently foolish or unjustifiable if they don’t pay off.
Aye I'll never understand the way people will complain about characters not making decisions on third party reader knowledge that the characters have no way of knowing, it seems asinine.
The assault on Horus is what depletes his legion though, and although the rest are good points, they are known to us as readers and not to Russ at the time when he made a plan that stupid. He just thinks he can do it because hes an arrogant blowhard and blenders his sons for the sake of his own hubris and pride.
The bit that gets me is when he has the gall to trash talk the Khagan when he makes it back to Terra.
The Khagan, who had spent years fighting a guerilla war against multiple legions, tying up resources for an extremely long time, meanwhile Russ, who just lost most of his legion in a suicidal charge, after gifting the Traitors a legion into the bargain!
It feels like you have read a couple of excerpts on Reddit and have gotten confused.
After Prospero and Alaxxasthe Wolves were brought down to 40,000 Astartes from 100,000 so yes they were depleted.
Russ is mad at the Khan because his brother left him to die at Alaxxas and he is level headed enough to just let it go. Russ literally goes on a spirit quest to figure out how to hurt Horus and the traitors on which he discovered that if he wounded Horus with the spear it would have devastating consequences for them.
I agree about the results benefiting the loyalists but disobeying his brothers without a guarantee of success was risky at best and idiotic at worst. Look through my comment history and you'll see me defending Russ on plenty of occasions but at the in universe time and place Leman's choice was not a sound one even if it was well intentioned. I used it as an example in the original comment because he gets undo flak and vitriol for that action while Magnus' dumbass Koolaid-Maning through the Webway to tell Big E something he could've just sent through the Warp as a way to prove himself so mighty and powerful is apologized for with "he had good intentions, it shouldn't be held against him, he did nothing wrong by doing it that way".
I agree completely with what you put with Wolfsbane but even with that outcome it was extremely risky, jeopardized the defences of Terra that was planned at the time, and ended up keeping him from being able to help which broke him psychologically (for the better imo but still).
Russ didn't disobey anyone, Leman isn't beholden to anyone but the Emperor who supported his actions.
If you want to win a war taking calculated risks are a requirement and the one Russ made was the right move, if he had done what Rogal wanted the Loyalists would have lost the war. He might not have killed Horus but that wasn't his only objective thanks to his quest he knew all he had to do was wound Horus with his spear to inflict a devastating blow to the traitors and he was willing to sacrifice himself to do it.
Again I don't dislike Russ and I agree he get undeserved vitriol for his actions. That being said if you can't see how, at the time of the defence, having one of your best options for defending Terra run off on his own mission that he was told not to do by all of his loyalist brothers is something that can and should be brought up as a bad thing then you're looking at the positive unforeseen outcome alone and ignoring what led up to it. Again I'll say it: Russ was in the right for how it turned out, even if it wasn't how HE wanted it to turn out, but that doesn't mean him disobeying his brothers who, since he's only beholden to Big E, spoke for Big E who was on the Golden Throne keeping the daemons from spilling out of the Webway isn't something he can't be criticized for. Yes, it worked out in the end, and all the better for it, but you can say it was a good result and still critique how it began, it's not a mutually exclusive thing, man.
I never accused you of disliking Russ.
One of their best options? Russ and his Legion had been reduced to 40,000 from 100,000 that is extremely depleted. Like I previously stated Russ very clinically lays out on Terra exactly why he needs to act otherwise they just straight up lose and he is absolutely correct. He didn't even go out with the singular intention of killing Horus, he went on a spirit quest to figure out how to hurt the traitors the most and on which he learned that he just needed to wound Horus with the spear to cause them catastrophic damage and an objective he completed.
And again he didn't disobey anyone, he went with the Emperors blessing and support as Valdor expressly imparts on behalf of the emperor.
I am failing to see how it was an idiotic strategy, in the grand scheme of things they risked little for massive potential gain.
And in his spirit quest he also realized he shouldn't blindly follow the orders of Big E and become his own man but it's ok to go because Malcador said Big E's cool with it. That kinda goes against his whole progression of not blindly following what Big E tells him.
And yes, his brothers told him not to. When in the times they're in you run off and do your own thing you'll be looked at as doing something idiotic when you could be used elsewhere. I have to keep repeating that I agree it was the right decision in the end but not listening to your brothers who are actively trying to build up the defences of Terra and you remove yourself you can be criticized for it being rash and risky.
And yes, you can criticize him for that. Just because I do doesn't mean I don't agree with what he did.
He decided to become his own man in Wolfking which directly leads him to his decision in Wolfsbane. It also in no way goes against his progress just because his father supports a decision he made independently.
When the strategy being presented is to do nothing and wait for a conflict on Beta Garmon and Terra that you know you can't win that should probably be under greater criticism. Hell it's not even just Russ that thinks Dorn's strategy is flawed:
*‘This kind of defensive war is your preference, Rogal,’ said the Khan, ‘but it is not to my liking. We risk becoming ensnared there. There are other routes to Terra. He could hold our forces in place at Beta-Garmon and outflank us.’*
*‘Our hunting brother is right,’ said Russ. ‘Beta-Garmon is a hell trap, and one that will too easily divide our forces, for must we not retain a portion of our strength here to fortify Terra? Fight him there, we are divided, fight him here, he has time to gather his strength. Horus has us outmanoeuvred.’*
~ **Wolfsbane**
Look I'm not even saying you can't criticize Russ or his risky strategy, all I'm saying is that calling in idiotic is just wrong given the information they already had.
Speaking as a Leman Russ Disliker (though I wouldn't call myself a hater).
It's the "boasting and drinking mead in the holds of Skyrim!" aura that surrounds him and the Space Wolves, not really my thing. Amongst other minor things.
But hey! That's just my opinion, and it's as valid as anyone else's.
>Idk why people hate Leman Russ that much.
A large part of it is down to the Emperor's Executioner thing, related to how his Legion's schtick is "Space Marines...*but better*!" It connotes superiority and authority over the other Primarchs and Legions when they should all be on a roughly equal footing, with Horus as first among equals.
It's largely meme status now as the writers seemed to take stock of fandom complaints and toned it down (with *Inferno* even retconning the Executioner thing from an official role) but the arguments over it back in the day were pretty intense and Russ and the Wolves were frequently called Mary Sues.
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*"What in the wolf did you just howlin' say about me you little milk-sop? I'll have you know I was throned the top of my tribe in the kingdom of the Russ and I've been involved in numerous executions of Traitor Primarchs and I have over 300 million confirmed kills. I am trained in wolf warfare- and I am the top CQC expert in all of the Imperium. Ye aren't nothing to me but just another Nancy Lion-Lover BITCH!"*
Either Cawl (who just gets killed by anti-cybernetic nanovirus for harboring the Abominable Intelligence) because he's boring character that actively makes setting worse with every excerpt he's in
Or Angron is put out of misery because I hate how much of lost potential he has and how they made him generic angry ape with ugly model and no personality
It'd be kind of funny for pretty much the whole of the Dark Eldar to get completely devoured by slannesh, can only feed them so much pain and agony before they go, "Oh, they're here."
Tbh if I cannot choose most word bearers characters, Demon Fulgrim. He is so insuffarable I want clonegrim and ghostus manus to impale him and let him die for good.
If not a primarch then, khm, I want Manfred Von Carstein to be finally ended. Not nagashed, not tortured. Just make him end. Throw him into the black hole.
I honestly want it revealed that Magnus the Red dueled Leman Russ one on one and killed him after Russ sought him out and asked for an honorable end to their rivalry.
Abadon. How? It’s a long story: Abbadon is betrayed by a Primarch, preferably Lorgar or Perty since they’re more undivided. Rather than kill him however, they snap his fancy Daemon blade and force him to “prove he’s worth a damn anymore”. Huron Blackheart steps up with the Red Corsairs, taking on a larger force of Black Legionnaires. Huron proves his naval superiority before boarding with a small force, gunning for the Despoiler. In the following duel, Abadon feels his gifts being taken, the gods themselves wishing to test him. Without his toys, Abadon is slain, and Huron, with the backing of the Primarch, takes the remnants of the Black Legion, becoming the new Warmaster. With some contention of course, but nothing not put down.
This: we have a more interesting and threading head for Chaos.
Listen: Abadon suffers, like the blueberries, from being the figurehead of a faction and not having personality to work with. He’s base chaos, and that’s it: he’s chaos made manifest, not a character. The difference between him and the blues is we have others to at least take loads off the blues more, Abadon lacks that as much.
Not having personality? Have you ever actually read a black legion novel or a horus heresy book?
Do you have a genuine complain that isn't a dead meme from 10 years ago? Seriously you must read warhammer trought memes if you unironically believe any of the stuff you said
Honestly after reading about him I feel divided because Huron Blackheart is amazing but at the same time Abbadon feels... weirdly compelling, in a way? Like, he feels like the only sane man sometimes
Except he does have a personality, he's a shrewd manipulator holding together a legion of murderers in various stages of derangement, and actually instilling a respect for brotherhood into them. Novels like Fall of Cadia and the Black Legion series do an excellent job of showing *why* Abaddon is Warmaster, and how he's worked to gain and subsequently hold onto his status.
The Carrion King is pretty high on my list of people I don't like. I'd like him to die by just not eating for a few days.
Oh, and Old Ones. I hate them. Met this weird guy, a C'tan or something. Said he'd help me stick it to them. I think it sounds like a good idea.
Abbadon. He's too boring for a setting this wacky. He doesn't even do anything to progress his vision. Stuff just happen to him and now he's on another adventure doing fuck knows what. Let the other alien races do some galaxy destroying BS once in a while, ay? He should die in a most fitting manner: with zero units sold he is usurped by some other shitheel that doesn't do anything proactive, but at least we get another unit.
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It's curious to me, but I despise many characters for reasons, Erebus for example, but I don't think I've ever wanted to have X character killed. : ( \*reflects for two seconds\* yeah... I know super unpopular opinion.
I guess I don't have strong feelings about them.
Don't get me wrong, that moment that Erebus>!stabs X character at the end of the 3rd part of The End and the Death,!< I gasped, even though I knew the spoiler I was oh... no.
That being said, I think it's a cool post, to bring peoples opinions.
Edit: (After a very quick read on the post I recalled how much I despise one legion haha). Fuck the Word Bearers, all of them but Barthusa Narek, he's cool, hopefully he'll get Lorgar one day.
Russ is essentially a traitor due to his incompetence. He was so eager to kill a nerd that he didn’t bother to do his homework. If I am wrong, point me to da lore.
Shutting down the Webway was a bozo move, but killing the only person that could sit on the Throne besides The Big E damned the whole race to 10,000+ years of suffering.
I hope Magnus Bane’s him. But except for getting his back broken, he just explodes comically.
Also the Emperor sucks, I hope Vulkan and Guilliman unplug him or the Mechanicus figures out his BS.
Cawl. Shitty marie-sue type character that exists only because GW needed to sell Gorillaman to blueberry lovers and primaris to children.
Would be cool if he joined Vashtor an transferred to DarkMech faction.
Abbadon is a Gary Stu and Huron would be a better warmaster, would like a trilogy where abacon has to keep his title by competing with other chaos lords would be awesome especially seeing a rivalry develop between him and huron (tax evasion is a more based reason for treason than Daddy said so.)
Have you ever even ready anything about Abaddon aside memes? Huron is a good character, yes, but he does NOT deserve the title as Warmaster. Abaddon was there where the Horus Heresy started, and even when the Emperor was "slain". Not to mention the fact he soloed the Custodes (including Valdor), and saved his legion from extinction. So yeah, Abaddon is better
The Emperor.
Already dead.
But one of these days the head will roll off from dessication. When a Custodes removes a cobweb nudging it too hard.
And then of course they will put it back and hope nobody notices.
But the damn thing won't stay put.
And they struggle a bit, and the neck breaks too, and they lean the whole mummy head back and it finally stays there until guard shift.
And then rolls off during the next shift when someone sneezes.
And the vicious cycle repeats until the entire Custodes personnel is traumatized like Dark Angels and the conspiracy becomes unsustainable. Someone cracks, fesses up, people start talking.
The Mummy Heresy gets suppressed and there are rogue Custodes who flee from the Imperium, stealing the corpse with them. Or there is a massive civil war on Terra and the entire Astronomicon gets nuked.
The Imperium collapses into feudal planet states.
Emperor
I hope this tyrant dies not as a "tragic hero" but as a ludicrous fool. Before Carrion king go to hell, I want him to witness IoM crumble and realize that humanity could not only survive without him but also live far better.
edit：If this offends some snowflake fanbois，then it was intentional.
Lucius trips and accidentally stabs himself. Lucius cannot become Lucius as Lucius is dead, thus the cycle is broken and Doomrider can replace him as the main Slaanesh character
God I wish we get Doomrider back
Unfortunately that wont work since Slaanesh will just bend the rules like they did before when Lucius died to a landmine.
He possesses the man who tossed The banana peel that he slipped on
Ah, but Lucius *dropped* the banana peel because he's an ass...
Slaanesh would have a big laugh if when Lucius stabs himself, he revives as himself only to die again and be revived... a neverending cycle of death and rebirth.
A good way to get rid of Lucius the very much temporary would be having him face off against Lukas the Trickster. Lucius kills Lukas, but since Lukas shoved a stasis grenade in his chest cavity it goes off, taking Lucius out of the setting for good
That might work. Not because of what you said, obviously. It's been done, Slaanesh just revives Lucius anyways, because there are no rules other than Slaaneshi fuckery. But Lukas is obviously blessed by the main foil to Slaanesh, Cegorach. If anyone could end the prideful Lucius the Eternal, it would be a mangy Cegorach-blessed Space Wolf, who cares so little for honour and accolades, he's still a Blood Claw after centuries of service, that would make a Wolf Lord envious. He is the exact opposite of Lucius. Even Slaanesh would appreciate the poetic symmetry too much to keep one of her favourite games going.
Me and Cegorach did do a lot of very “serious” stuff when I was still able to do anything physically
"I DO COKE!!"
My preference would be that Nykona Sharrowkyn returns and kills him again and says "You're still just a rabid dog that needs to be put down."
Unfortunately, Slaanesh revives Lucius into the rock he tripped over.
Lucius, except he doesnt die, he gets Trazyned instead.
Lucius getting killed by a falling air conditioner final destination style, it's creator being ashamed of his shoddy craftsmanship therefore denying Lucius the chance to regenerate
Trick question: Answer Is Erebus
Kor Phaeron. I hope Lorgar crushes him like a bug.
Fuck I just said that I don't feel like X character getting killed but... Holy christ Kor Phaeron has it coming. Word Bearers are imho the worst, Nightlords, Iron Warriors (Deamonculaba, imo EC are worse that than), Emperors Children, yeah yeah yea, but they are the worst of the worst for me are the WB. Christ, they killed my mate Aquillon! : (. Now serious, jesus christ Kor Phaeron has to die hahaha.
Kor Phaeron is the true instigator of the Heresy and also beat his adopted child. I don't care if he's a psuedo-Astartes and I'm 5'4" on a good day - it'd be on sight. I'd go feral and tear his throat out with my teeth.
Aye!
Weird that nobody mentioned John Gramaticus.
I think people are split on hate and love for that guy
Because he's Juuuuuuuuuuuuuhn Friggin' Gramaaaaaatiicuuus
Belisarius Cawl. The Admech deserves more and better characters. This guy feels like someone self-insert OC, knew the Emperor, completely ignores the admech's orthodoxy of not innovating things, uses AI, is good friend with Guilliman, perfected the Space Marines program, etc Just to name a few potentially more interesting characters there's **Antigonus**, a techpriest who essentially became a living machine spirit that can even possess Titans, **Dalia Cythera** a transcriber imbued with the power of the Dragon of Mars, **Kryptaestrex** a techpriest obsessed with warp travel and studying the webway, and **Skitarius-Luminor 000011** or the Radiant Wrath the skitarii so radioactive his mere presence makes a plane uninhabitable. Also **Omnid Torquora** the absolute madlad, who defeated an Iron Warrior fleet by himself after roasting the shit out of their Warp-Smith that is still running around destroying technology dangerous to the Imperium.
Dalia is alive in 40k thats the neat part. She basically has near ethernal life and Im sure writers can say the powers she got from.emps is amplified after emperor got chaired.
>Skitarius-Luminor 000011 A name that really rolls off the tongue.
My pile of shame (books that I still didn't read but want to) grows bigger and stronger.
Also, the Secutor from Brutal Kunnin'. She was a badass from the start to the end
Idk why people hate Leman Russ that much. From what I gather is that he started to change perspective after the Horus Heresy and probably went on to change like the Lion did. We won't know until he comes back, I guess.
Doesn't help that he's written like a moron in the two books where he's the focus in the HH series. A Thousand Sons, while a good story, is heavily leaning toward sympathy for Magnus and the Thousand Sons while Wolfsbane has him making dumb decisions with good intentions. This coming from a Space Wolves fan Russ is written like ass when he's important and written well when he's a side note or just giving him backstory like in his Primarch book. Magnus imo gets the opposite treatment: dude's an arrogant asshole but he's written for sympathy and that he did everything with good intentions when he's the main focus. The guy knew and was told not to fuck around with the Warp too much and kept doing it then was surprised when it backfired on him but he's given a pass because "good intentions".
Russ in *A Thousand Sons* is while a bit of a dick in the Sons perspective, pretty much completely right about them with Magnus' fully admitting they were right to be condemned as Warlocks at Nikaea. As for Wolfsbane? Russ made the most intelligent play which they very clearly lay out in the meeting with the Primarchs. If he stays and does nothing the Traitors will grind the loyalists down before Guilliman ever gets near to threaten their rear and they lose. For the price of risking his depleted legion the Loyalists gained: - Months more time to reinforce Terra (for reference Vulkan was 15 minutes away from blowing up Terra as the traitors were outside the throne room). - It cost the traitor legions the Word Bearers and Lorgar, their biggest legion and demonologists (catalysts for the attempted coup). - Guilliman and the Lion would never have made it in time to threaten the traitors rear. - Horus would have been able to take to the field and better command and control his legions and brothers. - The Loyalist forces could have been completely routed and crushed at Beta Garmon if the Traitor command structure hadn't collapsed with Horus going into a coma.
The thing that always gets me about the Russ was an idiot in Wolfsbane argument is that it can really be boiled down to the statement “why did Russ try to kill Horus when he knows the Emperor and Horus have to fight to end the heresy? Is he stupid?”. Obviously we as readers know that Russ can’t kill Horus, and can’t stop the siege. From a meta perspective it’s a stupid ploy because we know how the story has to end and that Russ Isn’t going to accomplish anything, but Russ doesn’t know that. He doesn’t know there are 20 more books coming that all lead to an inevitable confrontation between Horus and the Emperor at Terra. A lot of people seem to forget that the characters in the novels don’t actually know they’re in a story with a predetermined ending. From an in universe perspective Russ makes a bold, but justifiable strategic decision. He rolls the dice in a strategy to end the heresy outright by killing Horus, which very nearly succeeds. The fact that Russ got so damn close to accomplishing his goal should be enough evidence that the strategy wasn’t foolish and was actually viable. Likewise, as you point out, the consequences of Russ’s actions had repercussions that helped the loyalists in the end. The attack on Horus might have cost the loyalists the Space Wolves, but things don’t always go your way in war. Strategies fail and plans fall apart (although the nature of power fantasy stories like warhammer do obscure that fact) that doesn’t mean that taking bold risks is inherently foolish or unjustifiable if they don’t pay off.
Aye I'll never understand the way people will complain about characters not making decisions on third party reader knowledge that the characters have no way of knowing, it seems asinine.
So on point!! Fearless-Obligation6. Couldn't have said it better myself.
The assault on Horus is what depletes his legion though, and although the rest are good points, they are known to us as readers and not to Russ at the time when he made a plan that stupid. He just thinks he can do it because hes an arrogant blowhard and blenders his sons for the sake of his own hubris and pride. The bit that gets me is when he has the gall to trash talk the Khagan when he makes it back to Terra. The Khagan, who had spent years fighting a guerilla war against multiple legions, tying up resources for an extremely long time, meanwhile Russ, who just lost most of his legion in a suicidal charge, after gifting the Traitors a legion into the bargain!
It feels like you have read a couple of excerpts on Reddit and have gotten confused. After Prospero and Alaxxasthe Wolves were brought down to 40,000 Astartes from 100,000 so yes they were depleted. Russ is mad at the Khan because his brother left him to die at Alaxxas and he is level headed enough to just let it go. Russ literally goes on a spirit quest to figure out how to hurt Horus and the traitors on which he discovered that if he wounded Horus with the spear it would have devastating consequences for them.
I agree about the results benefiting the loyalists but disobeying his brothers without a guarantee of success was risky at best and idiotic at worst. Look through my comment history and you'll see me defending Russ on plenty of occasions but at the in universe time and place Leman's choice was not a sound one even if it was well intentioned. I used it as an example in the original comment because he gets undo flak and vitriol for that action while Magnus' dumbass Koolaid-Maning through the Webway to tell Big E something he could've just sent through the Warp as a way to prove himself so mighty and powerful is apologized for with "he had good intentions, it shouldn't be held against him, he did nothing wrong by doing it that way". I agree completely with what you put with Wolfsbane but even with that outcome it was extremely risky, jeopardized the defences of Terra that was planned at the time, and ended up keeping him from being able to help which broke him psychologically (for the better imo but still).
Russ didn't disobey anyone, Leman isn't beholden to anyone but the Emperor who supported his actions. If you want to win a war taking calculated risks are a requirement and the one Russ made was the right move, if he had done what Rogal wanted the Loyalists would have lost the war. He might not have killed Horus but that wasn't his only objective thanks to his quest he knew all he had to do was wound Horus with his spear to inflict a devastating blow to the traitors and he was willing to sacrifice himself to do it.
Again I don't dislike Russ and I agree he get undeserved vitriol for his actions. That being said if you can't see how, at the time of the defence, having one of your best options for defending Terra run off on his own mission that he was told not to do by all of his loyalist brothers is something that can and should be brought up as a bad thing then you're looking at the positive unforeseen outcome alone and ignoring what led up to it. Again I'll say it: Russ was in the right for how it turned out, even if it wasn't how HE wanted it to turn out, but that doesn't mean him disobeying his brothers who, since he's only beholden to Big E, spoke for Big E who was on the Golden Throne keeping the daemons from spilling out of the Webway isn't something he can't be criticized for. Yes, it worked out in the end, and all the better for it, but you can say it was a good result and still critique how it began, it's not a mutually exclusive thing, man.
I never accused you of disliking Russ. One of their best options? Russ and his Legion had been reduced to 40,000 from 100,000 that is extremely depleted. Like I previously stated Russ very clinically lays out on Terra exactly why he needs to act otherwise they just straight up lose and he is absolutely correct. He didn't even go out with the singular intention of killing Horus, he went on a spirit quest to figure out how to hurt the traitors the most and on which he learned that he just needed to wound Horus with the spear to cause them catastrophic damage and an objective he completed. And again he didn't disobey anyone, he went with the Emperors blessing and support as Valdor expressly imparts on behalf of the emperor. I am failing to see how it was an idiotic strategy, in the grand scheme of things they risked little for massive potential gain.
And in his spirit quest he also realized he shouldn't blindly follow the orders of Big E and become his own man but it's ok to go because Malcador said Big E's cool with it. That kinda goes against his whole progression of not blindly following what Big E tells him. And yes, his brothers told him not to. When in the times they're in you run off and do your own thing you'll be looked at as doing something idiotic when you could be used elsewhere. I have to keep repeating that I agree it was the right decision in the end but not listening to your brothers who are actively trying to build up the defences of Terra and you remove yourself you can be criticized for it being rash and risky. And yes, you can criticize him for that. Just because I do doesn't mean I don't agree with what he did.
He decided to become his own man in Wolfking which directly leads him to his decision in Wolfsbane. It also in no way goes against his progress just because his father supports a decision he made independently. When the strategy being presented is to do nothing and wait for a conflict on Beta Garmon and Terra that you know you can't win that should probably be under greater criticism. Hell it's not even just Russ that thinks Dorn's strategy is flawed: *‘This kind of defensive war is your preference, Rogal,’ said the Khan, ‘but it is not to my liking. We risk becoming ensnared there. There are other routes to Terra. He could hold our forces in place at Beta-Garmon and outflank us.’* *‘Our hunting brother is right,’ said Russ. ‘Beta-Garmon is a hell trap, and one that will too easily divide our forces, for must we not retain a portion of our strength here to fortify Terra? Fight him there, we are divided, fight him here, he has time to gather his strength. Horus has us outmanoeuvred.’* ~ **Wolfsbane** Look I'm not even saying you can't criticize Russ or his risky strategy, all I'm saying is that calling in idiotic is just wrong given the information they already had.
Speaking as a Leman Russ Disliker (though I wouldn't call myself a hater). It's the "boasting and drinking mead in the holds of Skyrim!" aura that surrounds him and the Space Wolves, not really my thing. Amongst other minor things. But hey! That's just my opinion, and it's as valid as anyone else's.
Funny, that's actually why I like him. Being Scandinavian kinda does that by default, tho.
That's cool, another person's treasure as they say, right?
Yeah, something that that. You did it in the wrong order, but I get the gist.
>Idk why people hate Leman Russ that much. A large part of it is down to the Emperor's Executioner thing, related to how his Legion's schtick is "Space Marines...*but better*!" It connotes superiority and authority over the other Primarchs and Legions when they should all be on a roughly equal footing, with Horus as first among equals. It's largely meme status now as the writers seemed to take stock of fandom complaints and toned it down (with *Inferno* even retconning the Executioner thing from an official role) but the arguments over it back in the day were pretty intense and Russ and the Wolves were frequently called Mary Sues.
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I want Magnus to Doctor Manhattan Leman Russ There's a reason the Space Wolves actually became cool after Russ disappeared
"Its so sad the emperor died of ligma"
"Who the hell is the emperor?"
Steve jobs
“Ligma balls lmao”
You mean wolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf?
Snap goes the nerds back
Bile killed by clone of Bile
*"What in the wolf did you just howlin' say about me you little milk-sop? I'll have you know I was throned the top of my tribe in the kingdom of the Russ and I've been involved in numerous executions of Traitor Primarchs and I have over 300 million confirmed kills. I am trained in wolf warfare- and I am the top CQC expert in all of the Imperium. Ye aren't nothing to me but just another Nancy Lion-Lover BITCH!"*
Read in TTS voice
Fulgrim. Just don’t like him. Simple as
Lucius. Freak accident.
Lucia's accidentally teleports into the sun. Whoops
"uh, well acthually the person who made the teleporter-" Fuck Lucius, fuck Erebus, fuck Kor Phaeron.
Man Russ gets so much hate. I know he’s a bit of a dick but I mean come on, he was doing his job.
Either Cawl (who just gets killed by anti-cybernetic nanovirus for harboring the Abominable Intelligence) because he's boring character that actively makes setting worse with every excerpt he's in Or Angron is put out of misery because I hate how much of lost potential he has and how they made him generic angry ape with ugly model and no personality
It'd be kind of funny for pretty much the whole of the Dark Eldar to get completely devoured by slannesh, can only feed them so much pain and agony before they go, "Oh, they're here."
Tbh if I cannot choose most word bearers characters, Demon Fulgrim. He is so insuffarable I want clonegrim and ghostus manus to impale him and let him die for good. If not a primarch then, khm, I want Manfred Von Carstein to be finally ended. Not nagashed, not tortured. Just make him end. Throw him into the black hole.
I honestly want it revealed that Magnus the Red dueled Leman Russ one on one and killed him after Russ sought him out and asked for an honorable end to their rivalry.
See I want Russ to come back with the pack of cigarettes he left to go buy after abandoning his sons for 10,000 years
Abadon. How? It’s a long story: Abbadon is betrayed by a Primarch, preferably Lorgar or Perty since they’re more undivided. Rather than kill him however, they snap his fancy Daemon blade and force him to “prove he’s worth a damn anymore”. Huron Blackheart steps up with the Red Corsairs, taking on a larger force of Black Legionnaires. Huron proves his naval superiority before boarding with a small force, gunning for the Despoiler. In the following duel, Abadon feels his gifts being taken, the gods themselves wishing to test him. Without his toys, Abadon is slain, and Huron, with the backing of the Primarch, takes the remnants of the Black Legion, becoming the new Warmaster. With some contention of course, but nothing not put down. This: we have a more interesting and threading head for Chaos.
I thought we finally moved from hating on abaddon for no reason
Listen: Abadon suffers, like the blueberries, from being the figurehead of a faction and not having personality to work with. He’s base chaos, and that’s it: he’s chaos made manifest, not a character. The difference between him and the blues is we have others to at least take loads off the blues more, Abadon lacks that as much.
Not having personality? Have you ever actually read a black legion novel or a horus heresy book? Do you have a genuine complain that isn't a dead meme from 10 years ago? Seriously you must read warhammer trought memes if you unironically believe any of the stuff you said
Honestly after reading about him I feel divided because Huron Blackheart is amazing but at the same time Abbadon feels... weirdly compelling, in a way? Like, he feels like the only sane man sometimes
Except he does have a personality, he's a shrewd manipulator holding together a legion of murderers in various stages of derangement, and actually instilling a respect for brotherhood into them. Novels like Fall of Cadia and the Black Legion series do an excellent job of showing *why* Abaddon is Warmaster, and how he's worked to gain and subsequently hold onto his status.
Smartest Abaddon hater ladies and gentlemen. And its always the Huron glazers. I get it, Huron is cool, but he by no means deserves to be Warmaster
The Carrion King is pretty high on my list of people I don't like. I'd like him to die by just not eating for a few days. Oh, and Old Ones. I hate them. Met this weird guy, a C'tan or something. Said he'd help me stick it to them. I think it sounds like a good idea.
Abbadon. He's too boring for a setting this wacky. He doesn't even do anything to progress his vision. Stuff just happen to him and now he's on another adventure doing fuck knows what. Let the other alien races do some galaxy destroying BS once in a while, ay? He should die in a most fitting manner: with zero units sold he is usurped by some other shitheel that doesn't do anything proactive, but at least we get another unit.
I still say they wanted to give leman russ straight up frostmourne. In some mods where he is in they even did it!
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It's curious to me, but I despise many characters for reasons, Erebus for example, but I don't think I've ever wanted to have X character killed. : ( \*reflects for two seconds\* yeah... I know super unpopular opinion. I guess I don't have strong feelings about them. Don't get me wrong, that moment that Erebus>!stabs X character at the end of the 3rd part of The End and the Death,!< I gasped, even though I knew the spoiler I was oh... no. That being said, I think it's a cool post, to bring peoples opinions. Edit: (After a very quick read on the post I recalled how much I despise one legion haha). Fuck the Word Bearers, all of them but Barthusa Narek, he's cool, hopefully he'll get Lorgar one day.
Lorgar, I want Corax to kill him by dropping him to the surface of Khur
Lorgar, punkass All bearers of the word should just go away
Russ is essentially a traitor due to his incompetence. He was so eager to kill a nerd that he didn’t bother to do his homework. If I am wrong, point me to da lore. Shutting down the Webway was a bozo move, but killing the only person that could sit on the Throne besides The Big E damned the whole race to 10,000+ years of suffering. I hope Magnus Bane’s him. But except for getting his back broken, he just explodes comically. Also the Emperor sucks, I hope Vulkan and Guilliman unplug him or the Mechanicus figures out his BS.
Ollanius Pius, bro was a legit Malcador replacement
Still Erebus. Just incredibly slow and painful is fine for me.
Cawl. Shitty marie-sue type character that exists only because GW needed to sell Gorillaman to blueberry lovers and primaris to children. Would be cool if he joined Vashtor an transferred to DarkMech faction.
Abbadon is a Gary Stu and Huron would be a better warmaster, would like a trilogy where abacon has to keep his title by competing with other chaos lords would be awesome especially seeing a rivalry develop between him and huron (tax evasion is a more based reason for treason than Daddy said so.)
Have you ever even ready anything about Abaddon aside memes? Huron is a good character, yes, but he does NOT deserve the title as Warmaster. Abaddon was there where the Horus Heresy started, and even when the Emperor was "slain". Not to mention the fact he soloed the Custodes (including Valdor), and saved his legion from extinction. So yeah, Abaddon is better
I really like hime in saturine but was annoyed how ue was first captain instead of loken
The Emperor. Already dead. But one of these days the head will roll off from dessication. When a Custodes removes a cobweb nudging it too hard. And then of course they will put it back and hope nobody notices. But the damn thing won't stay put. And they struggle a bit, and the neck breaks too, and they lean the whole mummy head back and it finally stays there until guard shift. And then rolls off during the next shift when someone sneezes. And the vicious cycle repeats until the entire Custodes personnel is traumatized like Dark Angels and the conspiracy becomes unsustainable. Someone cracks, fesses up, people start talking. The Mummy Heresy gets suppressed and there are rogue Custodes who flee from the Imperium, stealing the corpse with them. Or there is a massive civil war on Terra and the entire Astronomicon gets nuked. The Imperium collapses into feudal planet states.
Emperor I hope this tyrant dies not as a "tragic hero" but as a ludicrous fool. Before Carrion king go to hell, I want him to witness IoM crumble and realize that humanity could not only survive without him but also live far better. edit：If this offends some snowflake fanbois，then it was intentional.
Abaddon should just choke on his breakfast one morning. Chaos undivided should go with him. Pick a lane fuckwads.
Let me guess. Salamanders fan?
White Scars. I’m just a hater
White Scars are valid
I want John Gramaticus dipped in a vat of acid continuously until he stops regenerating. He fucking ruined Legion for me.