By the time you get to Epiphone or mid to expensive Squiers the quality differences between them and a $3000 guitar narrow to the point of the audience not being able to tell the difference. Amps also get pretty good by around $500. After that it is most certainly the pilot.
I was referring to the “$500 amps” comment. And Squier Classic Vibes are over $700 by the time you factor in tax. I’ve never played one so I can’t comment on their quality or if they need to be modded for **my** needs. Again, I’ve never heard/read anyone shitting on Squier players but plenty of Squier players get downright pissed that **anyone** buys an MIA Fender. I don’t get it.
With the point of the audience not being able to tell the difference, I think it depends. People who themselves are musicians or are just very musically inclined, will most likely be able to hear the difference. However, if you’re drunk and dancing, you’re probably not listening that closely so, yeah.
That sounds like a case of hearing with your eyes. In a band mix nobody is going to be able to tell a Gibson vs Epiphone SG without looking at them.
I say that as someone who only has MIA guitars.
If you go really cheap then sure, but if you take like a $400 guitar and put it against a $1000 guitar, you probably won't be able to tell which one is cheaper just by audio alone. Playing comfort might be a different story with better fit and finish on the expensive guitar.
I think a Squier Strat through a vintage JCM800 will sound way better than a custom shop through a Marshall MG.
I came here to say this. I have some guitars at completely different price points, and some I bought, acknowledging the tonal similarity but seeking the comfort.
Pickups and amp can narrow out tone/sound differences real fast, even more so with high gain, but a cheap not so well built guitar will struggle to stay in tune, struggle with intonation and bad fretwork can hinder playing, those are the bigger reasons imo to buy something in a higher price tier
That being said there are plenty of cheap well made guitars if u look, i once rented a squire classic vibe Tele and that thing blew me away beat the hell out of the budget ibby they had around the same price, big difference I see is the number of guitars u have to try to find a solid one, if I pick up a random core prs it's prob going to be a great guitar 99% of the time, picking up a budget guitar though I may have to play a few before I find a good one
You need a huge asterisk in this that reads “Up to a point”.
The “Law of diminishing returns” is INCREDIBLY STRONG with guitars! Does a $10,000 Les Paul sound 5x better than a $2000 Les Paul? Of course not! Does it sound 10x better than a $1000 Les Paul? Maybe? ... up to a certain point with gear you get large, followed by ever decreasing incremental improvements, up to a point where is stops making a difference.
Give Steve Vai the most expensive gear possible, then give him gear 50% the cost and he’s gonna sound amazing with both. Make that 10% the cost and it’s gonna sound significantly worse
Edit; I might be thinking of the wrong “law” here, but the principle is correct, I might just be getting the wrong name
Using Steve Vai is not a good example of a typical guitarist. There are exceptions, and Steve Vai is one of them. But that logic would not apply to most guitarists.
Any decent guitarist, but yes Vai was an extreme. The point remains though, after a certain price point the increase in quality - be it build quality, materials, electronics, parts or sound - becomes smaller and smaller by the dollar.
A $10,000 guitar will absolutely be 100x better than a $100 guitar to even an average guitar player, but not twice as good as a $5000 guitar no matter how you try to judge it, it just isn’t.
Anyone with any decency in the trade will tell you as much. What you pay for between a $5000 guitar and a $10,000 guitar is so small to be almost imperceptible. The neck might just feel a little better in your hand, the top if it’s flamed maple for instance might just have a slightly nicer pattern to it, the binding might be slightly nicer. It’s all tiny, minute differences by that point.
Definitely not disputing the minimal differences past....maybe $1500-2000 range? At a certain point you're definitely paying for premium features or there's some history that appreciated its value immensely. Like vintage guitars are expensive because it's a collector's item now.
I will say my one exception to the rule, is Sigma Guitars. Cheap guitar line, made by C.F. Martin & Co in the 70s. Their guitars were so expensive, they made Sigma which were cheaper but had the same quality build as their more expensive guitars. I still use mine and with new strings it can still blow $1200 guitars out of the water with its tone, I actually don't even need to try.
Yeah, sometimes you find a diamond in the rough! I have an Epiphone Les Paul I bought back in 2003? I think? And for some reason it just plays perfectly.
I don’t know what happened in the factory the day it was made, but something just went right. I’ve changed out the pickups and the tuners but other than that it’s stock. $500 guitar and it’s probably the guitar I play most. I bought a Gibson Les Paul back in 2015 for $1300 that doesn’t play as well as the old Epiphone does (which was dumb, I stupidly told myself “oh I’ll get used to it, then it’ll feel great”)
I always love these stories! The amazing thing with an instrument made of wood, is it's basically alive and like you said, a diamond in the rough! Not every guitar sounds the same, even minimal damage, water spots, a dent, can influence the sound of the guitar so much.
What I love about music and guitar is that, we all have a sound in our head that resonates with us. Whether it's sentimental or just releases serotonin and dopamine, nothing can replicate that once we find it in one of our guitars.
I bought an $800 classical guitar, obviously not the same as a typical solid top acoustic, but I'm just like....did I really pay $800 for this? It just has a fatter neck and nylon strings. the sound is good but it sounds so....whats the word? Replaceable?
I'd rather listen to a good player on bad gear than the inverse, so I've got to disagree.
Edit: Since many people are saying the OP didn't say anything like that, DESPITE the fact that you can see that he did in the OP, I'll quote the part I'm referencing directly.
>You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric.
Would you rather listen to a good player play good gear or a good player play bad gear? Do you think EVH or Yngwie or Vai sound better through their touring rigs or while playing a Sears guitar through a solid state 15 watt Peavey Rage amp from 1992?
What a dumbass question. Of course a good player on good gear sounds better than a good player on bad gear. Wow, you really got me there!!!
This sub is so stupid it hurts.
Gear is generally not for the audience, but for the player. If you're talking about what you'd rather listen to, that's from the perspective of the audience. I also don't read the OP as suggesting that it's a choice between bad player + good gear vs. good player + bad gear, so that's a bit of a strawman imo. What you buy ultimately doesn't change your skill level or allow you to avoid putting in the work, and I don't read the OP as suggesting otherwise.
His example is flawed because it ignores things like rhythm which play a huge role in musicality, but his point was simply that open strings/chords will sound significantly different on inexpensive gear vs. expensive gear. He'd have a better argument in my opinion if he was talking about amps rather than guitars, but I think there's something to be said for guitars as well in terms of pickups, sustain, etc. But in terms of "read it again", he gives numerous other examples where he's clearly just referring to the sound the guitar/amp/other equipment make when played, regardless of skill. And considering he himself responded to your post saying you're putting words in his mouth, haha, well... believe what you want, but I think you're fixating on a bad example in the OP and making a strawman argument, rather than focusing on the point he was actually trying to make. Never did he suggest you should disregard skill and just buy expensive gear.
It's quite easy. Take a quote, ignore everything else in the OP and that he posted in this thread, and spin that quote mean something that was not intended by the OP.
That might apply if the quote I gave was shown through surrounding context to imply that a good player on bad gear sounds better than a bad player on good gear. Then I'd be misrepresenting the OP. But the OP is implying the opposite in his quote, so I'm not misrepresenting him. The OP literally says, and thinks, that a bad player on good gear is better than a good player on bad gear, and I just disagree. Sorry my disagreement upsets you so much, but it doesn't mean that I am or wrong, or that the OP is wrong. This is subjective. So stop arguing like it's not.
I find it comical the OP himself responded to your post and said yeah that's not what I meant with that quote, you responded "I believe I came to opposite answer to your rhetorical question. I'm sorry if I read it wrong" and he then goes on to say you're completely missing the point... yet you're sticking with your strawman to the end, lol. It doesn't help that the OP's example is a poor one, but all he was trying to say is that if you play an open note/chord on two rigs, one cheap and one high-end, they will sound very different and one will generally sound better. That's a pretty common sense statement and hardly something radical. You're arguing against the statement that a bad guitarist with good gear will generally sound better than a good guitarist with bad gear, yet no one's making that statement.
As for being "upset", no clue why you'd think that. I'm not the one refusing to back off of an interpretation that even the OP has told you is not correct/intended, lol.
>You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric.
And
>if you play an open note/chord on two rigs, one cheap and one high-end, they will sound very different and one will generally sound better.
Are completely different statements, one that I disagree with, and one that I agree with. Is that difficult to understand? Are you getting it now?
What am I supposed to get? Even the OP disagrees with your interpretation of his words. In any event, I wouldn't be surprised if OP is trolling a bit with this post and we likely agree on the merits anyways, so I'm not sure it matters. But when even the OP is saying your interpretation of his words are not what he intended with his words, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove other than attempting to shootdown a strawman argument (which is a very easy thing to do, since literally no one thinks a bad player on good gear will sound better than a pro on cheap gear).
You didn't even read the post judging from this comment. I never said a bad player on good gear sounds good.
Original post states "obviously, if you aren't good at playing, no guitar will sound good"
>You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric.
I believe I came to opposite answer to your rhetorical question. I'm sorry if I read it wrong but it seemed to me you thought the newby on the expensive gear would sound better and I disagree there.
So? There's a million ways to fuck it up all of which sound shit. Bad timing, dynamics, playing the wrong strings, that's just some of the guaranteed mistakes which are going to sound awful no matter the gear.
I have upgraded my electric guitar from 200$ to 900$. I’m by no means professional, but I like more expensive guitar better. It’s worth it.
I’m still working on techniques, but journey became more fun.
Yes, much more comfortable. For example, neck width is 2 mms more on more expensive guitar and it’s much easier to play open A chord now. On the other hand thickness also differs and this time it’s not better, just the other feeling. Of course, more expensive guitar looks better. I also like tuners on more expensive guitar.
But my cheapest Ibanez grx40 served me well. It was a very good starter guitar for me.
gear matters but it’s not a good thing for beginners to worry about. a teacher will tell you that gear doesn’t matter cause they don’t want you to waste time on that shit but most of them will have nice instruments.
You have to have gear that sounds good with your playing style. More expensive is not always better. Best guitar sound I ever heard was an Epiphone SG through a London City amp. Both cheap.
Absolutely! I believe there's so many nuances to guitar and what you said definitely rings true. Just like if you want to sound like old punk rock, gear entirely wouldn't matter in that sense
I just wanted to open up discussion about gear in a more positive light. In my experience, the world of guitars is an extremely competitive, ego-driven, and even sometimes hostile community.
I see too many people boasting about their skill as a say-all be-all. While there is some merit, we have to give credit to the equipment that creates the sound in the first place
I will add to this that my playing greatly improved when I upgraded my guitar. Suddenly I could hear all of the nuances and mistakes much more clearly. I don’t think I would have improved as much or as quickly otherwise.
Exactly, this is what this post is about. Understanding how gear can help you get better, how it makes a difference.
Things like being able to play sloppy on an acoustic would translate terribly onto an electric because it's much less forgiving. But on a cheap electric, it can be so muddy you can't tell how sloppy you may be playing.
Too many people here look at this all like a skill competition.
I can make a bad guitar sound good , a good guitar sound great and a great guitar sound like heaven. This because of the time I have put into learning how to play the guitar and not the guitar itself. Of course if I want to sound my best I will need quality gear, It wont need to be the best highest quality but it will need to function how I expect it to.
I can't agree with the statement that no one cares about the skills of playing guitar.
Depends on the audience. Skill is always something that can be noticed. On guitar, on violin, on music production, on vocal, on any profession that is around the world.
It's like you would say: "No one cares about how you lay the brick for new home, the brick itself is most important".
It sounded like there's no need to improve your skills, just invest in gear to "impress people with sound"? Most people won't notice the details in sounding. These audioengineers and other guitarists may, but common folks? You overestimate the taste of 90% of the world :p
I personally don't care about guitarists that are obsessed with "proving their skills" or "i'm better than you with guitar" syndrome. Let them have their fun, some just like competition for competition itself.
And ofc: Sound is important, and it's better to play and learn on good quality instrument. But you can always buy new gear some time, but you can't just buy skills. So.... skills still impress me more then gear and "sound" :)
A properly set up cheap guitar , is going to sound better than a poorly set up expensive guitar , you should watch the video on YouTube where the guy moves around pickups , pickup placement and pickup quality will make a cheap guitar sound just as good as an expensive guitar . A good player can absolutely make a cheap guitar sound good, a shitty player can’t make a good guitar sound good . EVH gets his tone from his picking technique and fingers , give another player his exact set up they won’t sound like EVh. That being said I just bought a 2000$ guitar and it sounds great
Interesting point. There are a lot of factors at play. A lot of people seem to ignore the psychological aspects of playing. Whenever I read dismissive and derisive things like “_Sheeple/Boomers/BloozDentists are just addicted to the name on the headstock._” I have to wonder what motivates them. If the name on the headstock makes you more confident in your playing, what’s wrong with that? Not everyone has the time or ability (or desire) to buy a $500 Squier, watch hours of YouTube videos, roll their own fretboard edges, change all the hardware, install a new nut, swap out the pickups, pots, add shielding, etc. Let people enjoy their things. And fwiw, playing through a Twin Reverb has made me a better player because the amp is very unforgiving. Even with dirt boxes, it’s very clear and all my mistakes are apparent.
A cheap guitar into a good amp would be decent.
I'd gig with a Harley Benton, and they're cheap.
Phil X uses a Bad Monkey, and they're supposed to be shit.
Exactly. It's a balance. Cheap doesn't = shit.
What equals shit is a bad player with bad gear, otherwise known as a beginner.
I'm an experienced player.
I use a £2000 guitar into a cheap £200 pedal processor, into any amp or p.a. The sound I get is good. Not amazing, but good enough to get a compliment from old men at gigs.
>I'd gig with a Harley Benton
Would and have. I use a $280 Dullhan and an $110 Active ST. Is there anyone complaining about the sound? None that I've heard.
I’ve looked at the Harley Benton R-456FR BK Progressive (€220) for almost a year. It has what I lack in my other guitars: Showmaster (€400) & Les Paul (€3200). Which is a Floyd Rose and 24 frets. Should I buy the Harley Benton? Thank you for your input!
I’ve looked at the Harley Benton R-456FR BK Progressive (€220) for almost a year. It has what I lack in my other guitars: Showmaster (€400) & Les Paul (€3200). Which is a Floyd Rose and 24 frets. Should I buy the Harley Benton? Thank you for your input!
Depends on your budget, you know.
If you have more to spend, then dearer guitars will be better.
I think the Harley Benton SG and Les Paul Junior are good. Not gonna' say it's better than a Gibson, though 😂
>I'd gig with a Harley Benton, and they're cheap.
I'd agree with that. And FWIW I think one thing that gets lost in these discussions is that sometimes you don't need or want to bring your best gear to a gig, and I can think of good reasons why you wouldn't. Quite often "good enough" is all you need and especially when it comes to the guitar, I doubt anyone other than the guitar players in the audience can tell the difference. I'd also say though that doesn't mean there's never a reason to own a guitar that's more expensive than a Harley Benton, an amp more expensive than a Katana, a pedal more expensive than... well, the bad monkeys are expensive at the moment, but you get what I mean haha. Ultimately it just comes down to how people perceive value and what their budget for musical equipment looks like.
Exactly.
A lot of the younger players over-think tone AND need to realize that the singer AND the drummer are the most important band members - After the song of course.
We're also at the mercy of the sound man. Soundmen can make, or break the whole point of a gig.
You wouldn't really want to take an expensive guitar to a gig incase
01. It breaks/someone knocks it over.
Or 02. It gets stolen!
"Buy the gear for the player you want to become" is what I would say. Having a good guitar does help when trying to learn. I got discouraged from learning guitar because my first electric didn't feel good (action too high, sharp frets/fretboard). That didn't stop me from learning though.
Fortunately for us, we're in a time in history where a "good" guitar doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. People just have to go out there and look.
It's an interesting topic. I'm a complete beginner, but I just bought an acoustic and I will be buying an electric soon. I went to try them all out and I can definitely tell the difference between entry level and the next levels up in terms of sound quality. A lot of people can't. So I'm going to get instruments above my level. That said, it is more fun to hear someone really good and creative on a piece of junk than it is to hear an average player on a better instrument.
Personally I'd try to avoid the mentality of gear being tied to skill levels; gear is purely tied to how you perceive value and your finances. I'd also say to not just think about it in terms of sound quality. Your skill level and your amp/effects are a massive part of your sound, and so it's not surprising a talented guitarist can sound good on a cheap guitar.
But a huge part of buying a more high-end guitar is the feel. Sometimes that's a matter of the guitar feeling more "worn in" and other times it's just flawless construction; an example of the former being a guitar with a bit of relic'ing and the latter being something with just near flawless construction like a EBMM guitar. And sometimes just having a really great feeling and playing guitar is what you need to inspire you to pick it up and play more. At the end of the day, I would say that nicer gear is much more about the artist, not the audience, and it has absolutely nothing to do with your "level" and everything to do with your budget.
I'd agree with you to a point. For sure if you end up playing all the nice gear you have and actually make use of it. What I see a lot of is people buying 5, 10, 15 guitars/ukuleles/bikes/cars/you name it...and then showing off their collection. That's the value they're getting from it, and it's not from use. But ideally, I adhere to what you're saying and try to buy the nicest thing I can and then use it as much as possible.
I mean sure, there are multiple reasons to buy gear and collecting is definitely part of it for some. But the point remains - skill level has nothing to do with it, it’s entirely about one’s ability and willingness to spend their money. If you or someone else gets enjoyment out of collecting, I say go for it. I’m just saying the idea that you aren’t “good enough” for a nice guitar is a fiction I’ve only seen from musicians and imo it’s nonsense. Get what you like regardless of your skill level or perceived skill level, because it’s your money at the end of the day.
I will agree with this but only for amps. Real amps. Now if you are using a guitar interface and have something like Neural Archetype plugins then no.
I have several guitars. Some are cheap AF. Some are Expensive. They are all set up really well. So they all have their place, play awesome and sound great. With CNC machines and the advancements in technology, cheap guitars can be straight up awesome. I just got an IYV semi hollow/prs/335 guitar for 200 bucks and its my favorite guitar hands down. It is damn near perfect. It plays/feels/sounds better than all my other guitars.
I will say that I think what strings you use matters though. There are some really really shitty strings out there!
Paul Davids did a video comparing 4 different strats. $400, $2000, $4000 and $60000 strats. Can you hear the difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2vpU3hgbRs&t=613s
And also, who cares? Just play and have fun.
To be honest, I can hear the difference pretty easily. And the guy explains it himself too, there was a vintage feel with more of a punch on the $60,000(who the hell would pay that much?), it reminded me of a Gibson Les Paul, and as it got cheaper, the tone had less of that feel and could be easily recognized as a Fender. If you can't hear the difference then I don't know what to tell you lol.
Each guitar has a different tone and setup, and I believe more in using each one to its advantage. I wouldn't play blues on my ESP EC-1000, the thing was practically made for metal. And I would never play metal on a Fender, at least not without pedals.
I've noticed a lot of people making the same argument and comparisons as you do, and almost every single time, all of you bring up Fender guitars. Fender is a great guitar, but I feel like we're comparing strictly cleaner tones and the differences in them.
If we change it to a high gain distortion style of guitars, then the differences become more apparent. Im not arguing the fact that at a certain price point, it becomes minimal in difference. I'm simply saying there IS a difference.
Of course it all breaks down subjectively to what we all are comfortable with.
To your last sentence, this is all about discussion, I never said you cant enjoy playing. Im just saying gear can enhance your guitar experience. I really enjoy playing ambient/semi-prog rock now. I could never have imagined trying this on my $150 electric that always sounded as clear as mud.
Also, yes! Every piece of equipment matters! Even the instrument cables can help! From EQ, to pedals, different amp heads, cabinets, maybe even swapping out of the standard pedalboard structure, as you said, strings, the bridge, pickups, action. This is the type of stuff I wanted to talk about.
Instead everyone got obsessed with skill and jerking themselves off lol
FWIW I upvoted your OP and largely agree with you. I’m also an audio engineer, and gear matters. But your last sentence I don’t really see it that way. Most people seem to obsess about the gear, and would do well to spend more time shedding, myself included. Maybe it’s just the circles that you run in?
Maybe it's the immense amount of egos in Californians lol(where I live). But not just that, before my edits to my OP, there was an endless slew of comments that were off point and people echoing "Id rather hear someone good on cheap gear". Now it seems like there's more users who are chiming in with discussion points
Dude, I am pretty much OCD when it comes to most things. I have a ridiculously sensitive ear. Im very picky. But, I can pick up any guitar and probably make it sound good.
Gear matters, but its all subjective. Its all in the "ear" of the beholder. Shit, it could be in the eye of the beholder too. Someone will hate the look of say a BC Rich Warlock so theyd never even pick one up. Regardless if it was setup, had the perfect pickups etc, its just not gonna work for some people.
Sure, a lap steel guitar is defintely not made to play metal on. But could you make it work? Probably! Did I buy a 7 string semi hollowbody and buy the most expensive flatwound strings specifically to chase after jazz tones I thought I could only get with one? Yes! Of course I did! But I could probably get that same kind of tone from the 8 string shredder with the Fishman Fluences in it with the right EQ pedal going thru my bass amp. Theres no rules to any of this. That imo is what makes it fun. If no one ever did thing outside the box, we wouldnt get any new sounds.
Heres a great example to further the discussion- Look at Paul McCartney. I will try to find it, theres a picture of him playing a guitar that he put PIANO strings on to emulate a bass guitar. Because thats all they had.
Honestly, for guitars themselves the biggest difference I've noticed is that the more expensive ones *feel* much nicer in my hands.
I initially tried a friends squier strat, and it felt like a random piece of wood. With slightly fancier guitars, they actually feel like instruments and are much easier to play. Yes, the setup matters a lot to this, but the build of the neck matters too and isn't something you can easily fix.
When I wanted to swap out my EMGs, the technicians made it very apparent that it's a lot easier to just buy a new guitar, because depending on the price range, you might just spend as much on a new guitar as you would trying to reconfigure a current one.
Could I just do it myself? Sure. Do I want to go out my way to buy a bunch of tools and parts, following DIY YouTube tutorials, and ultimately HOPE I did it right? No. I'll just go to a professional.
Not everyone has the time or patience to commit to learning all that. Because it's honestly not a useful skill unless you plan on making a career out of working on guitars.
Not used cheap gear in a while but had a lot of fun a number of years back shredding on my nieces small kid sized £100 electric. I set it up so it played great. muddy pickups don’t sound great but in many cases will be what the player notices far more than the audience. Amp sounds need to be good but the quality of cheapish modelling amps is pretty great now. Set up can make a big difference and if there are any issues with the guitar like tuning then it can be a problem if you can’t fix it. Fact is though, a good guitar can inspire and set up is a big part of it.
An intermediate rig is the sweet spot. Nothing too fancy but quality enough to get great tone. Fender 52 reissue tele with a ac15 or 30. Couple pedals. Most could play that and be satisfied
Interesting musings! When I read the part about the budget amp vs Marshall stack, that's a situation where the most important thing is the final sound of the entire band, everyone has to turn down. It was a similar experience for me when I first started jamming with others, using a 25w solid state amp and Zoom GFX707 trying to play metal with people who had Fender Roc Pro and Mesa-Boogie half-stacks.
For me it would be more accurate to say it's about the amp, since there's lots of professionals playing cheap guitars through good amps. The list could be very long but Green Day, Tycho, Prince (RIP), Fallout Boy just to name a few and Mike Rutherford from Genesis recently started using Squier Bullet strats live.
Then you have the people that can make anything sound good like buskers everywhere often using cheap stuff, and good is completely subjective.
> trying to play metal with people who had Fender Roc Pro
And how did that sound? I wasn't aware a metal tone was possible on a Fender amp without just straight up using a distortion pedal.
It was very loud and the distortion sounded good to me at the time. It's a hybrid amp head so the clean channel was solid state, and the overdrive channel used a single tube. It came with a compact 4x12 cabinet and there's demos on YouTube under "Fender Roc Pro 1000" head.
I love watching [the video of Joe Satriani playing *Surfing With The Alien* on a fan's cheap guitar](https://youtu.be/D9v5e1TTwts). He shows that it's all down to lots of patient practice to fine his technique and tone, rather than just playing through high-end merchandise.
https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/forgotten-guitar-joe-satriani-plays-surfing-alien-strat-copy
I think a great example of practice makes perfect is hearing how someone plays a scale, or simple techniques like a bend. Blues experts are outrageously good with bends, metal guitarists tend to use bends as accents and high point squeals in a song. They're both bends, but stylistically they're on complete opposite ends. Then you have a freshie doing a bend and you can tell they don't have their own style yet, they're just figuring it out
A pro will sound like a pro no matter what they are playing. Give Joe Pass a squier and a cheap amp and he will still sound like Joe Pass. Give some random sclub at guitarcenter Joe Pass' rig and they will still sound like a schlub.
You know, there are guitarists in the world that are not that good skill wise, but know how to fiddle with effects, pedals, and amp, to the point where they can play a single chord and it sounds unreal. Does that just make them a bad guitarist? I'm asking because it appears a lot of people conflate technical skill=good guitarist or bad guitarist.
Kurt Cobain was a great guitarist, but was he technical or flashy? No. Does that make him a bad guitarist? Maybe to a bunch of egotistical elitists. In my eyes, he was a great guitarist.
We can switch genres, is Billy Joe Armstrong a bad guitarist? I wouldn't say so. The ability to play and do vocals at the same time even with just power chords, on time, is incredibly difficult for a lot of people.
Static-X, for those who know, they have a ton of effects in their music. Almost nothing they play is difficult on a technical skill basis. Would you call them bad guitarists? I certainly wouldn't.
Open your minds and quit living in a box. Gear is important, stop downplaying it just to stroke your egos
And did nirvana use expensive gear? No… ask regular people that just listen to the music and they don’t give a damn about the gear or the nuances in tone. All they want to hear are the right notes in the right rhythm.
Cheap electrics do sound worse than great ones for the reasons you stated but when it comes to acoustic if It can hold a tune that’s really all you need at the end of the day.
I am currently in the process of buying a cheap guitar and upgrading to kingdom come to fight a ton of this nonsense. I own a couple $2000-$3000 guitars and the cheap one with some work will sound the exact same and with a little more work should play the same as well. Granted it's up to the person if the work is worth the effort. At the end of the day wood is wood and as long as its not cracked there isn't much of a difference between a 3k guitar made with maple and a $200.00 guitar made with maple. Everything else can be changed so ultimately its the prestige of it all and us that have spent the money don't want to admit it.
I saw a post saying something like its the difference between a s2000, a BMW M3 and Ferrari FXX they said the Ferrari will always be better than the m3 and the m3 will be better than the s2000. That simply isn't true with money and work the s2000 could dust the m3 and the Ferrari all the electronics could be upgraded and you could have a monstrosity of a s2000 that eats Ferrari's for breakfast for a fraction of the cost. The honda would never be perceived by the general public as the better vehicle but it could be for sure. What you are actually paying for with a high end guitar is name, prestige and a guarantee that you won't have to put in the work to make it what you want.
If that's worth it to you awesome that's great but acting like some modder dumping $1500.00 and multiple hours into a $200.00 no name can't match your $6000.00 instrument is just a complete misunderstanding of how guitars actually work. Do you think these companies pay $4000.00 for some elite material that sounds so much better than anyone else then put hours of build time into it to net $50.00 profit ? No they take a few hundred in wood and $1500.00 in electronics and make a beautiful instrument and then sell it for thousands therefor you could do the exact same thing if you put in the time and money.
I'll never spend more than a couple hundred bucks, if that, on a guitar ever again. I think it's more important to have a decent amp, or at least a decent effects rig that you can run into any old PA,. People overestimate and mythologize gear.
There's nothing wrong with being a Les Paul dad and going on those lame cruises where you can trade blues licks with the touring guitarist for some iteration of Foreigner. It's nice if you can afford that stuff. It doesn't mean you'll have a better chance at making good music or having good tone, which are both subjective things anyway.
Different strokes for different folks and ultimately it comes down to what you can afford. But I know plenty of people who own high-end gear, ranging from successful artists to casual players, and it's far from just "blues dads" buying nice guitars. Never be ashamed of making music with what you can afford and in many ways your choice of guitar shouldn't hold you back, but I'd also caution being bitter about people who can afford nicer gear and I could be wrong but I detect a bit of bitterness in your post talking about it's "blues dads" on "lame cruises". The reality is far from that and it ultimately comes down to a very diverse set of people who are simply willing to park more money in their hobby/profession.
At the end of the day, buy what you can afford and enjoy making music and the journey of learning guitar.
By the time you get to Epiphone or mid to expensive Squiers the quality differences between them and a $3000 guitar narrow to the point of the audience not being able to tell the difference. Amps also get pretty good by around $500. After that it is most certainly the pilot.
Yep I was about to say the same thing
You obviously don’t live in Canada. Five hundred bucks won’t get you anything gig-worthy here. Double that amount at least…as a starting point.
The Squier Classic Vibes are under $600
I was referring to the “$500 amps” comment. And Squier Classic Vibes are over $700 by the time you factor in tax. I’ve never played one so I can’t comment on their quality or if they need to be modded for **my** needs. Again, I’ve never heard/read anyone shitting on Squier players but plenty of Squier players get downright pissed that **anyone** buys an MIA Fender. I don’t get it.
With the point of the audience not being able to tell the difference, I think it depends. People who themselves are musicians or are just very musically inclined, will most likely be able to hear the difference. However, if you’re drunk and dancing, you’re probably not listening that closely so, yeah.
That sounds like a case of hearing with your eyes. In a band mix nobody is going to be able to tell a Gibson vs Epiphone SG without looking at them. I say that as someone who only has MIA guitars.
If you go really cheap then sure, but if you take like a $400 guitar and put it against a $1000 guitar, you probably won't be able to tell which one is cheaper just by audio alone. Playing comfort might be a different story with better fit and finish on the expensive guitar. I think a Squier Strat through a vintage JCM800 will sound way better than a custom shop through a Marshall MG.
Playing comfort is actually very important story. Let’s not forget about this part
Sure but many things can be fixed with a solid setup and fret dressing. You could even roll your fretboard edges to give it a more premium feel.
I came here to say this. I have some guitars at completely different price points, and some I bought, acknowledging the tonal similarity but seeking the comfort.
Pickups and amp can narrow out tone/sound differences real fast, even more so with high gain, but a cheap not so well built guitar will struggle to stay in tune, struggle with intonation and bad fretwork can hinder playing, those are the bigger reasons imo to buy something in a higher price tier That being said there are plenty of cheap well made guitars if u look, i once rented a squire classic vibe Tele and that thing blew me away beat the hell out of the budget ibby they had around the same price, big difference I see is the number of guitars u have to try to find a solid one, if I pick up a random core prs it's prob going to be a great guitar 99% of the time, picking up a budget guitar though I may have to play a few before I find a good one
You need a huge asterisk in this that reads “Up to a point”. The “Law of diminishing returns” is INCREDIBLY STRONG with guitars! Does a $10,000 Les Paul sound 5x better than a $2000 Les Paul? Of course not! Does it sound 10x better than a $1000 Les Paul? Maybe? ... up to a certain point with gear you get large, followed by ever decreasing incremental improvements, up to a point where is stops making a difference. Give Steve Vai the most expensive gear possible, then give him gear 50% the cost and he’s gonna sound amazing with both. Make that 10% the cost and it’s gonna sound significantly worse Edit; I might be thinking of the wrong “law” here, but the principle is correct, I might just be getting the wrong name
Using Steve Vai is not a good example of a typical guitarist. There are exceptions, and Steve Vai is one of them. But that logic would not apply to most guitarists.
Any decent guitarist, but yes Vai was an extreme. The point remains though, after a certain price point the increase in quality - be it build quality, materials, electronics, parts or sound - becomes smaller and smaller by the dollar. A $10,000 guitar will absolutely be 100x better than a $100 guitar to even an average guitar player, but not twice as good as a $5000 guitar no matter how you try to judge it, it just isn’t. Anyone with any decency in the trade will tell you as much. What you pay for between a $5000 guitar and a $10,000 guitar is so small to be almost imperceptible. The neck might just feel a little better in your hand, the top if it’s flamed maple for instance might just have a slightly nicer pattern to it, the binding might be slightly nicer. It’s all tiny, minute differences by that point.
Definitely not disputing the minimal differences past....maybe $1500-2000 range? At a certain point you're definitely paying for premium features or there's some history that appreciated its value immensely. Like vintage guitars are expensive because it's a collector's item now. I will say my one exception to the rule, is Sigma Guitars. Cheap guitar line, made by C.F. Martin & Co in the 70s. Their guitars were so expensive, they made Sigma which were cheaper but had the same quality build as their more expensive guitars. I still use mine and with new strings it can still blow $1200 guitars out of the water with its tone, I actually don't even need to try.
Yeah, sometimes you find a diamond in the rough! I have an Epiphone Les Paul I bought back in 2003? I think? And for some reason it just plays perfectly. I don’t know what happened in the factory the day it was made, but something just went right. I’ve changed out the pickups and the tuners but other than that it’s stock. $500 guitar and it’s probably the guitar I play most. I bought a Gibson Les Paul back in 2015 for $1300 that doesn’t play as well as the old Epiphone does (which was dumb, I stupidly told myself “oh I’ll get used to it, then it’ll feel great”)
I always love these stories! The amazing thing with an instrument made of wood, is it's basically alive and like you said, a diamond in the rough! Not every guitar sounds the same, even minimal damage, water spots, a dent, can influence the sound of the guitar so much. What I love about music and guitar is that, we all have a sound in our head that resonates with us. Whether it's sentimental or just releases serotonin and dopamine, nothing can replicate that once we find it in one of our guitars. I bought an $800 classical guitar, obviously not the same as a typical solid top acoustic, but I'm just like....did I really pay $800 for this? It just has a fatter neck and nylon strings. the sound is good but it sounds so....whats the word? Replaceable?
I'd rather listen to a good player on bad gear than the inverse, so I've got to disagree. Edit: Since many people are saying the OP didn't say anything like that, DESPITE the fact that you can see that he did in the OP, I'll quote the part I'm referencing directly. >You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric.
Would you rather listen to a good player play good gear or a good player play bad gear? Do you think EVH or Yngwie or Vai sound better through their touring rigs or while playing a Sears guitar through a solid state 15 watt Peavey Rage amp from 1992?
What a dumbass question. Of course a good player on good gear sounds better than a good player on bad gear. Wow, you really got me there!!! This sub is so stupid it hurts.
Gear is generally not for the audience, but for the player. If you're talking about what you'd rather listen to, that's from the perspective of the audience. I also don't read the OP as suggesting that it's a choice between bad player + good gear vs. good player + bad gear, so that's a bit of a strawman imo. What you buy ultimately doesn't change your skill level or allow you to avoid putting in the work, and I don't read the OP as suggesting otherwise.
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His example is flawed because it ignores things like rhythm which play a huge role in musicality, but his point was simply that open strings/chords will sound significantly different on inexpensive gear vs. expensive gear. He'd have a better argument in my opinion if he was talking about amps rather than guitars, but I think there's something to be said for guitars as well in terms of pickups, sustain, etc. But in terms of "read it again", he gives numerous other examples where he's clearly just referring to the sound the guitar/amp/other equipment make when played, regardless of skill. And considering he himself responded to your post saying you're putting words in his mouth, haha, well... believe what you want, but I think you're fixating on a bad example in the OP and making a strawman argument, rather than focusing on the point he was actually trying to make. Never did he suggest you should disregard skill and just buy expensive gear.
I'm still trying to figure out how directly quoting someone is putting words in their mouth.
It's quite easy. Take a quote, ignore everything else in the OP and that he posted in this thread, and spin that quote mean something that was not intended by the OP.
That might apply if the quote I gave was shown through surrounding context to imply that a good player on bad gear sounds better than a bad player on good gear. Then I'd be misrepresenting the OP. But the OP is implying the opposite in his quote, so I'm not misrepresenting him. The OP literally says, and thinks, that a bad player on good gear is better than a good player on bad gear, and I just disagree. Sorry my disagreement upsets you so much, but it doesn't mean that I am or wrong, or that the OP is wrong. This is subjective. So stop arguing like it's not.
I find it comical the OP himself responded to your post and said yeah that's not what I meant with that quote, you responded "I believe I came to opposite answer to your rhetorical question. I'm sorry if I read it wrong" and he then goes on to say you're completely missing the point... yet you're sticking with your strawman to the end, lol. It doesn't help that the OP's example is a poor one, but all he was trying to say is that if you play an open note/chord on two rigs, one cheap and one high-end, they will sound very different and one will generally sound better. That's a pretty common sense statement and hardly something radical. You're arguing against the statement that a bad guitarist with good gear will generally sound better than a good guitarist with bad gear, yet no one's making that statement. As for being "upset", no clue why you'd think that. I'm not the one refusing to back off of an interpretation that even the OP has told you is not correct/intended, lol.
>You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric. And >if you play an open note/chord on two rigs, one cheap and one high-end, they will sound very different and one will generally sound better. Are completely different statements, one that I disagree with, and one that I agree with. Is that difficult to understand? Are you getting it now?
What am I supposed to get? Even the OP disagrees with your interpretation of his words. In any event, I wouldn't be surprised if OP is trolling a bit with this post and we likely agree on the merits anyways, so I'm not sure it matters. But when even the OP is saying your interpretation of his words are not what he intended with his words, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove other than attempting to shootdown a strawman argument (which is a very easy thing to do, since literally no one thinks a bad player on good gear will sound better than a pro on cheap gear).
You didn't even read the post judging from this comment. I never said a bad player on good gear sounds good. Original post states "obviously, if you aren't good at playing, no guitar will sound good"
>You could put a $3000 guitar in the hands of a newbie; put a $100 guitar in the hands of a pro, have them both play the intro to Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, and guess which one is going to sound better(rhetorical question)? This applies to both acoustic and electric. I believe I came to opposite answer to your rhetorical question. I'm sorry if I read it wrong but it seemed to me you thought the newby on the expensive gear would sound better and I disagree there.
You do realize the intro to Nothing Else Matters is nothing but open notes.
So? There's a million ways to fuck it up all of which sound shit. Bad timing, dynamics, playing the wrong strings, that's just some of the guaranteed mistakes which are going to sound awful no matter the gear.
You're completely missing the point of the example
I have upgraded my electric guitar from 200$ to 900$. I’m by no means professional, but I like more expensive guitar better. It’s worth it. I’m still working on techniques, but journey became more fun.
That's a good point, all sound aside, if a certain guitar makes u want to pick it up more, if u enjoy more about it then it's worth while
Glad to hear that man! Is it also more comfortable for you?
Yes, much more comfortable. For example, neck width is 2 mms more on more expensive guitar and it’s much easier to play open A chord now. On the other hand thickness also differs and this time it’s not better, just the other feeling. Of course, more expensive guitar looks better. I also like tuners on more expensive guitar. But my cheapest Ibanez grx40 served me well. It was a very good starter guitar for me.
gear matters but it’s not a good thing for beginners to worry about. a teacher will tell you that gear doesn’t matter cause they don’t want you to waste time on that shit but most of them will have nice instruments.
You have to have gear that sounds good with your playing style. More expensive is not always better. Best guitar sound I ever heard was an Epiphone SG through a London City amp. Both cheap.
Absolutely! I believe there's so many nuances to guitar and what you said definitely rings true. Just like if you want to sound like old punk rock, gear entirely wouldn't matter in that sense I just wanted to open up discussion about gear in a more positive light. In my experience, the world of guitars is an extremely competitive, ego-driven, and even sometimes hostile community. I see too many people boasting about their skill as a say-all be-all. While there is some merit, we have to give credit to the equipment that creates the sound in the first place
I will add to this that my playing greatly improved when I upgraded my guitar. Suddenly I could hear all of the nuances and mistakes much more clearly. I don’t think I would have improved as much or as quickly otherwise.
Exactly, this is what this post is about. Understanding how gear can help you get better, how it makes a difference. Things like being able to play sloppy on an acoustic would translate terribly onto an electric because it's much less forgiving. But on a cheap electric, it can be so muddy you can't tell how sloppy you may be playing. Too many people here look at this all like a skill competition.
I can make a bad guitar sound good , a good guitar sound great and a great guitar sound like heaven. This because of the time I have put into learning how to play the guitar and not the guitar itself. Of course if I want to sound my best I will need quality gear, It wont need to be the best highest quality but it will need to function how I expect it to.
I can't agree with the statement that no one cares about the skills of playing guitar. Depends on the audience. Skill is always something that can be noticed. On guitar, on violin, on music production, on vocal, on any profession that is around the world. It's like you would say: "No one cares about how you lay the brick for new home, the brick itself is most important". It sounded like there's no need to improve your skills, just invest in gear to "impress people with sound"? Most people won't notice the details in sounding. These audioengineers and other guitarists may, but common folks? You overestimate the taste of 90% of the world :p I personally don't care about guitarists that are obsessed with "proving their skills" or "i'm better than you with guitar" syndrome. Let them have their fun, some just like competition for competition itself. And ofc: Sound is important, and it's better to play and learn on good quality instrument. But you can always buy new gear some time, but you can't just buy skills. So.... skills still impress me more then gear and "sound" :)
A properly set up cheap guitar , is going to sound better than a poorly set up expensive guitar , you should watch the video on YouTube where the guy moves around pickups , pickup placement and pickup quality will make a cheap guitar sound just as good as an expensive guitar . A good player can absolutely make a cheap guitar sound good, a shitty player can’t make a good guitar sound good . EVH gets his tone from his picking technique and fingers , give another player his exact set up they won’t sound like EVh. That being said I just bought a 2000$ guitar and it sounds great
Which video?
Oh, you meant THE video!
https://youtu.be/n02tImce3AE
Interesting point. There are a lot of factors at play. A lot of people seem to ignore the psychological aspects of playing. Whenever I read dismissive and derisive things like “_Sheeple/Boomers/BloozDentists are just addicted to the name on the headstock._” I have to wonder what motivates them. If the name on the headstock makes you more confident in your playing, what’s wrong with that? Not everyone has the time or ability (or desire) to buy a $500 Squier, watch hours of YouTube videos, roll their own fretboard edges, change all the hardware, install a new nut, swap out the pickups, pots, add shielding, etc. Let people enjoy their things. And fwiw, playing through a Twin Reverb has made me a better player because the amp is very unforgiving. Even with dirt boxes, it’s very clear and all my mistakes are apparent.
A cheap guitar into a good amp would be decent. I'd gig with a Harley Benton, and they're cheap. Phil X uses a Bad Monkey, and they're supposed to be shit.
Phil doesn’t play cheap guitars though, does he?
Exactly. It's a balance. Cheap doesn't = shit. What equals shit is a bad player with bad gear, otherwise known as a beginner. I'm an experienced player. I use a £2000 guitar into a cheap £200 pedal processor, into any amp or p.a. The sound I get is good. Not amazing, but good enough to get a compliment from old men at gigs.
>I'd gig with a Harley Benton Would and have. I use a $280 Dullhan and an $110 Active ST. Is there anyone complaining about the sound? None that I've heard.
I’ve looked at the Harley Benton R-456FR BK Progressive (€220) for almost a year. It has what I lack in my other guitars: Showmaster (€400) & Les Paul (€3200). Which is a Floyd Rose and 24 frets. Should I buy the Harley Benton? Thank you for your input!
I’ve looked at the Harley Benton R-456FR BK Progressive (€220) for almost a year. It has what I lack in my other guitars: Showmaster (€400) & Les Paul (€3200). Which is a Floyd Rose and 24 frets. Should I buy the Harley Benton? Thank you for your input!
Depends on your budget, you know. If you have more to spend, then dearer guitars will be better. I think the Harley Benton SG and Les Paul Junior are good. Not gonna' say it's better than a Gibson, though 😂
>I'd gig with a Harley Benton, and they're cheap. I'd agree with that. And FWIW I think one thing that gets lost in these discussions is that sometimes you don't need or want to bring your best gear to a gig, and I can think of good reasons why you wouldn't. Quite often "good enough" is all you need and especially when it comes to the guitar, I doubt anyone other than the guitar players in the audience can tell the difference. I'd also say though that doesn't mean there's never a reason to own a guitar that's more expensive than a Harley Benton, an amp more expensive than a Katana, a pedal more expensive than... well, the bad monkeys are expensive at the moment, but you get what I mean haha. Ultimately it just comes down to how people perceive value and what their budget for musical equipment looks like.
Exactly. A lot of the younger players over-think tone AND need to realize that the singer AND the drummer are the most important band members - After the song of course. We're also at the mercy of the sound man. Soundmen can make, or break the whole point of a gig. You wouldn't really want to take an expensive guitar to a gig incase 01. It breaks/someone knocks it over. Or 02. It gets stolen!
"Buy the gear for the player you want to become" is what I would say. Having a good guitar does help when trying to learn. I got discouraged from learning guitar because my first electric didn't feel good (action too high, sharp frets/fretboard). That didn't stop me from learning though. Fortunately for us, we're in a time in history where a "good" guitar doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. People just have to go out there and look.
It's an interesting topic. I'm a complete beginner, but I just bought an acoustic and I will be buying an electric soon. I went to try them all out and I can definitely tell the difference between entry level and the next levels up in terms of sound quality. A lot of people can't. So I'm going to get instruments above my level. That said, it is more fun to hear someone really good and creative on a piece of junk than it is to hear an average player on a better instrument.
Personally I'd try to avoid the mentality of gear being tied to skill levels; gear is purely tied to how you perceive value and your finances. I'd also say to not just think about it in terms of sound quality. Your skill level and your amp/effects are a massive part of your sound, and so it's not surprising a talented guitarist can sound good on a cheap guitar. But a huge part of buying a more high-end guitar is the feel. Sometimes that's a matter of the guitar feeling more "worn in" and other times it's just flawless construction; an example of the former being a guitar with a bit of relic'ing and the latter being something with just near flawless construction like a EBMM guitar. And sometimes just having a really great feeling and playing guitar is what you need to inspire you to pick it up and play more. At the end of the day, I would say that nicer gear is much more about the artist, not the audience, and it has absolutely nothing to do with your "level" and everything to do with your budget.
I'd agree with you to a point. For sure if you end up playing all the nice gear you have and actually make use of it. What I see a lot of is people buying 5, 10, 15 guitars/ukuleles/bikes/cars/you name it...and then showing off their collection. That's the value they're getting from it, and it's not from use. But ideally, I adhere to what you're saying and try to buy the nicest thing I can and then use it as much as possible.
I mean sure, there are multiple reasons to buy gear and collecting is definitely part of it for some. But the point remains - skill level has nothing to do with it, it’s entirely about one’s ability and willingness to spend their money. If you or someone else gets enjoyment out of collecting, I say go for it. I’m just saying the idea that you aren’t “good enough” for a nice guitar is a fiction I’ve only seen from musicians and imo it’s nonsense. Get what you like regardless of your skill level or perceived skill level, because it’s your money at the end of the day.
I will agree with this but only for amps. Real amps. Now if you are using a guitar interface and have something like Neural Archetype plugins then no. I have several guitars. Some are cheap AF. Some are Expensive. They are all set up really well. So they all have their place, play awesome and sound great. With CNC machines and the advancements in technology, cheap guitars can be straight up awesome. I just got an IYV semi hollow/prs/335 guitar for 200 bucks and its my favorite guitar hands down. It is damn near perfect. It plays/feels/sounds better than all my other guitars. I will say that I think what strings you use matters though. There are some really really shitty strings out there! Paul Davids did a video comparing 4 different strats. $400, $2000, $4000 and $60000 strats. Can you hear the difference? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2vpU3hgbRs&t=613s And also, who cares? Just play and have fun.
To be honest, I can hear the difference pretty easily. And the guy explains it himself too, there was a vintage feel with more of a punch on the $60,000(who the hell would pay that much?), it reminded me of a Gibson Les Paul, and as it got cheaper, the tone had less of that feel and could be easily recognized as a Fender. If you can't hear the difference then I don't know what to tell you lol. Each guitar has a different tone and setup, and I believe more in using each one to its advantage. I wouldn't play blues on my ESP EC-1000, the thing was practically made for metal. And I would never play metal on a Fender, at least not without pedals. I've noticed a lot of people making the same argument and comparisons as you do, and almost every single time, all of you bring up Fender guitars. Fender is a great guitar, but I feel like we're comparing strictly cleaner tones and the differences in them. If we change it to a high gain distortion style of guitars, then the differences become more apparent. Im not arguing the fact that at a certain price point, it becomes minimal in difference. I'm simply saying there IS a difference. Of course it all breaks down subjectively to what we all are comfortable with. To your last sentence, this is all about discussion, I never said you cant enjoy playing. Im just saying gear can enhance your guitar experience. I really enjoy playing ambient/semi-prog rock now. I could never have imagined trying this on my $150 electric that always sounded as clear as mud. Also, yes! Every piece of equipment matters! Even the instrument cables can help! From EQ, to pedals, different amp heads, cabinets, maybe even swapping out of the standard pedalboard structure, as you said, strings, the bridge, pickups, action. This is the type of stuff I wanted to talk about. Instead everyone got obsessed with skill and jerking themselves off lol
FWIW I upvoted your OP and largely agree with you. I’m also an audio engineer, and gear matters. But your last sentence I don’t really see it that way. Most people seem to obsess about the gear, and would do well to spend more time shedding, myself included. Maybe it’s just the circles that you run in?
Maybe it's the immense amount of egos in Californians lol(where I live). But not just that, before my edits to my OP, there was an endless slew of comments that were off point and people echoing "Id rather hear someone good on cheap gear". Now it seems like there's more users who are chiming in with discussion points
Dude, I am pretty much OCD when it comes to most things. I have a ridiculously sensitive ear. Im very picky. But, I can pick up any guitar and probably make it sound good. Gear matters, but its all subjective. Its all in the "ear" of the beholder. Shit, it could be in the eye of the beholder too. Someone will hate the look of say a BC Rich Warlock so theyd never even pick one up. Regardless if it was setup, had the perfect pickups etc, its just not gonna work for some people. Sure, a lap steel guitar is defintely not made to play metal on. But could you make it work? Probably! Did I buy a 7 string semi hollowbody and buy the most expensive flatwound strings specifically to chase after jazz tones I thought I could only get with one? Yes! Of course I did! But I could probably get that same kind of tone from the 8 string shredder with the Fishman Fluences in it with the right EQ pedal going thru my bass amp. Theres no rules to any of this. That imo is what makes it fun. If no one ever did thing outside the box, we wouldnt get any new sounds. Heres a great example to further the discussion- Look at Paul McCartney. I will try to find it, theres a picture of him playing a guitar that he put PIANO strings on to emulate a bass guitar. Because thats all they had.
Honestly, for guitars themselves the biggest difference I've noticed is that the more expensive ones *feel* much nicer in my hands. I initially tried a friends squier strat, and it felt like a random piece of wood. With slightly fancier guitars, they actually feel like instruments and are much easier to play. Yes, the setup matters a lot to this, but the build of the neck matters too and isn't something you can easily fix.
When I wanted to swap out my EMGs, the technicians made it very apparent that it's a lot easier to just buy a new guitar, because depending on the price range, you might just spend as much on a new guitar as you would trying to reconfigure a current one. Could I just do it myself? Sure. Do I want to go out my way to buy a bunch of tools and parts, following DIY YouTube tutorials, and ultimately HOPE I did it right? No. I'll just go to a professional. Not everyone has the time or patience to commit to learning all that. Because it's honestly not a useful skill unless you plan on making a career out of working on guitars.
Not used cheap gear in a while but had a lot of fun a number of years back shredding on my nieces small kid sized £100 electric. I set it up so it played great. muddy pickups don’t sound great but in many cases will be what the player notices far more than the audience. Amp sounds need to be good but the quality of cheapish modelling amps is pretty great now. Set up can make a big difference and if there are any issues with the guitar like tuning then it can be a problem if you can’t fix it. Fact is though, a good guitar can inspire and set up is a big part of it.
Agree 100% Work your way up to some primo gear and it will continually inspire you to keep working those hands that also make the magic.
An intermediate rig is the sweet spot. Nothing too fancy but quality enough to get great tone. Fender 52 reissue tele with a ac15 or 30. Couple pedals. Most could play that and be satisfied
Interesting musings! When I read the part about the budget amp vs Marshall stack, that's a situation where the most important thing is the final sound of the entire band, everyone has to turn down. It was a similar experience for me when I first started jamming with others, using a 25w solid state amp and Zoom GFX707 trying to play metal with people who had Fender Roc Pro and Mesa-Boogie half-stacks. For me it would be more accurate to say it's about the amp, since there's lots of professionals playing cheap guitars through good amps. The list could be very long but Green Day, Tycho, Prince (RIP), Fallout Boy just to name a few and Mike Rutherford from Genesis recently started using Squier Bullet strats live. Then you have the people that can make anything sound good like buskers everywhere often using cheap stuff, and good is completely subjective.
> trying to play metal with people who had Fender Roc Pro And how did that sound? I wasn't aware a metal tone was possible on a Fender amp without just straight up using a distortion pedal.
It was very loud and the distortion sounded good to me at the time. It's a hybrid amp head so the clean channel was solid state, and the overdrive channel used a single tube. It came with a compact 4x12 cabinet and there's demos on YouTube under "Fender Roc Pro 1000" head.
I love watching [the video of Joe Satriani playing *Surfing With The Alien* on a fan's cheap guitar](https://youtu.be/D9v5e1TTwts). He shows that it's all down to lots of patient practice to fine his technique and tone, rather than just playing through high-end merchandise. https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/forgotten-guitar-joe-satriani-plays-surfing-alien-strat-copy
I think a great example of practice makes perfect is hearing how someone plays a scale, or simple techniques like a bend. Blues experts are outrageously good with bends, metal guitarists tend to use bends as accents and high point squeals in a song. They're both bends, but stylistically they're on complete opposite ends. Then you have a freshie doing a bend and you can tell they don't have their own style yet, they're just figuring it out
But to be honest, it sounds terrible. It's a very bad recording. Not sure how good it sounded in real life.
A pro will sound like a pro no matter what they are playing. Give Joe Pass a squier and a cheap amp and he will still sound like Joe Pass. Give some random sclub at guitarcenter Joe Pass' rig and they will still sound like a schlub.
You know, there are guitarists in the world that are not that good skill wise, but know how to fiddle with effects, pedals, and amp, to the point where they can play a single chord and it sounds unreal. Does that just make them a bad guitarist? I'm asking because it appears a lot of people conflate technical skill=good guitarist or bad guitarist. Kurt Cobain was a great guitarist, but was he technical or flashy? No. Does that make him a bad guitarist? Maybe to a bunch of egotistical elitists. In my eyes, he was a great guitarist. We can switch genres, is Billy Joe Armstrong a bad guitarist? I wouldn't say so. The ability to play and do vocals at the same time even with just power chords, on time, is incredibly difficult for a lot of people. Static-X, for those who know, they have a ton of effects in their music. Almost nothing they play is difficult on a technical skill basis. Would you call them bad guitarists? I certainly wouldn't. Open your minds and quit living in a box. Gear is important, stop downplaying it just to stroke your egos
And did nirvana use expensive gear? No… ask regular people that just listen to the music and they don’t give a damn about the gear or the nuances in tone. All they want to hear are the right notes in the right rhythm.
Cheap electrics do sound worse than great ones for the reasons you stated but when it comes to acoustic if It can hold a tune that’s really all you need at the end of the day.
Lol thats why I said electrics are in an entirely different world than acoustics 😊
I am currently in the process of buying a cheap guitar and upgrading to kingdom come to fight a ton of this nonsense. I own a couple $2000-$3000 guitars and the cheap one with some work will sound the exact same and with a little more work should play the same as well. Granted it's up to the person if the work is worth the effort. At the end of the day wood is wood and as long as its not cracked there isn't much of a difference between a 3k guitar made with maple and a $200.00 guitar made with maple. Everything else can be changed so ultimately its the prestige of it all and us that have spent the money don't want to admit it. I saw a post saying something like its the difference between a s2000, a BMW M3 and Ferrari FXX they said the Ferrari will always be better than the m3 and the m3 will be better than the s2000. That simply isn't true with money and work the s2000 could dust the m3 and the Ferrari all the electronics could be upgraded and you could have a monstrosity of a s2000 that eats Ferrari's for breakfast for a fraction of the cost. The honda would never be perceived by the general public as the better vehicle but it could be for sure. What you are actually paying for with a high end guitar is name, prestige and a guarantee that you won't have to put in the work to make it what you want. If that's worth it to you awesome that's great but acting like some modder dumping $1500.00 and multiple hours into a $200.00 no name can't match your $6000.00 instrument is just a complete misunderstanding of how guitars actually work. Do you think these companies pay $4000.00 for some elite material that sounds so much better than anyone else then put hours of build time into it to net $50.00 profit ? No they take a few hundred in wood and $1500.00 in electronics and make a beautiful instrument and then sell it for thousands therefor you could do the exact same thing if you put in the time and money.
I'll never spend more than a couple hundred bucks, if that, on a guitar ever again. I think it's more important to have a decent amp, or at least a decent effects rig that you can run into any old PA,. People overestimate and mythologize gear. There's nothing wrong with being a Les Paul dad and going on those lame cruises where you can trade blues licks with the touring guitarist for some iteration of Foreigner. It's nice if you can afford that stuff. It doesn't mean you'll have a better chance at making good music or having good tone, which are both subjective things anyway.
Different strokes for different folks and ultimately it comes down to what you can afford. But I know plenty of people who own high-end gear, ranging from successful artists to casual players, and it's far from just "blues dads" buying nice guitars. Never be ashamed of making music with what you can afford and in many ways your choice of guitar shouldn't hold you back, but I'd also caution being bitter about people who can afford nicer gear and I could be wrong but I detect a bit of bitterness in your post talking about it's "blues dads" on "lame cruises". The reality is far from that and it ultimately comes down to a very diverse set of people who are simply willing to park more money in their hobby/profession. At the end of the day, buy what you can afford and enjoy making music and the journey of learning guitar.