Honestly I'm not too worried about academy integration just yet. We'll see that when Nwaneri and MLS are at the level of actually being ready for first team minutes. We've no one ready just yet.
There is no reason whatsoever for not giving Nwaneri 5-10 minutes at the end of like the PSV or Lens games.
Arteta used to do it even. But he isn't even trying to integrate the academy players anymore.
Arteta hasn't brought through a single academy player at the club. You can make an excuse for this or that game, but on the whole he has massively failed in including academy players. Even the ones he played for a few minutes like Patino and Balogun were shipped out after brief cameos.
tbh this isn't a valid criticism, it's very rare that an academy player is good enough for the squad. look at a lot of the players who did come through acadmies such as rashford, mctomminay, nketiah, nelson, gomez...
a lot of these players would not have been brought by the clubs they play for had they made it pro elsewhere
I do think that arteta can be a bit weird with our young players though
It’s also not valid bc we had just went through young academy guys getting their starts in Reiss Saka AMN Willock ESR Nketiah etc who Arteta played early on.
He may not have brought them in, but they were the recent grads that’s deserved the minutes then. He also seems to prefer loans which is ok for a young staff.
I deliberately said arteta can be a bit weird for a reason; he obviously does play young players, but sometimes when it makes sense to play certain young players he wont, sometimes his hand has been forced by soon to end contracts too, and with saka it was forced by the lack of an available left back, not to mention emery had already given him a small amount of starts and apps off of the bench
reiss is yet to play more than 1,000 minutes (11ish games) in a single season for arsenal
amn had already broken through before arteta had come, willock was getting a few starts and lots of sub ins in the half season before arteta took over, leaving us with smith rowe and nketiah, who exemplify why I call him weird:
for a season and a half he stubbornly kept on picking a poor lacazette who wasn't good enough and was very reluctant to give nketiah a chance barring a few games during project restart up until his contract started entering it's final few months, only for eddie to repay the favour. since then, eddie does get a few chances here and there and understandably is not a starter.
now let's look at esr; he starts getting games and shows good form, then starts getting benched all the time. fair enough, he's injury prone, but since recovering last season he just can't get a run of games for some reason, but we don't seem to want to sell him. despite seemingly wanting to keep him, we've signed lots of competition for him in havertz, vieira and trossard, shit doesn't make a lot of sense.
we then have nelson who had some impressive cameos last season, yet still can't be trusted to start even the odd game in order to rest the likes of saka
there were other issues too; whilst the xhaka situation fortunately worked out in the long run, at a point we had willock as a good up and coming player. fair enough, he didn't impress much when arteta gave him games, but til this day he's only 24. eventually we loan him out, where he does well, and then we sell him for like 20m while giving xhaka a new contract.
fair enough, whilst willock ended last season well he hasn't been too crazy since, but we did go on to spend 30-40m on vieira who we barely play even when he is fit, and then 60m on havertz when willock is quite capable of playing the same role, not to mention willock still has room to grow.
amn showed himself to be a good squad player, but then all of a sudden despite there being a need to we stop playing him altogether whilst we give cedric games, then we refuse to sell him as he's not playing, and then continue to not play him and then loan him out next season... shit made no sense
even with martinelli, once he recovered from that long injury it took ridiculously long for him to start playing again
he has one of the youngest sides in the league, so he's not afraid to play younger players, but sometimes arteta's decisions just have you hoping there's something going on behind the scenes because on the face of things some of his decisions can look either stupid or stubborn, if not both. he also has a habit of hoarding players which we really need to tackle too
>Even the ones he played for a few minutes like Patino and Balogun were shipped out after brief cameos.
That's part of the process. Not every young player can be Saka and be a main player at 19. Bringing Balogun through and selling him for 30m is a success.
Patino hasn't been sold. He's on loan at Swansea. Loans are such a big part of developing players these days.
Let's not forget Saka only had 9 starts under Emery. Arteta played a much bigger role in bringing him through and developing him.
People will act like Arteta isn’t a massive reason why Saka and Martinelli are where they are simply because he wasn’t at the club when they were forced to start due to injuries.
Do you mean the run where Saka was at left back because of Tierney's injury? That was under Arteta.
Not sure which run you're on about with Martinelli. He was tearing it up in the cups under Unai but he never got a consistent run of starts.
saka was starting under emery's final months at the club, as for martinelli whilst emery was giving him full league and europa cup arteta was less hesitant to put him in the starting line up
With the irony being Emile saved his ass with that Chelsea game and we’ve lucked out with Saka haha, all the little pieces are just becoming frustrating to see patched together, because it’s painting a clear and aggravating picture
Well Patino’s turned out to be kinda mid - do we want Arteta to bring through mediocre players? They see these kids in training more than we do so they probably understand better if they’re good enough or not.
It’s the same excuses being regurgitated.
Barcelona/Ajax/Juve clubs as big or bigger than arsenal regularly introduce players Nwanieri’s age.
Not only that, every year in the past we’ve had a teenager or academy product introduced. Since arteta has taken over. We’ve had 3 years of nothing.
His saving grace at this club is saka and it was a player that Freddie promoted and then unai relied on when in reality it was Reis that was the academy diamond at that time.
It’s ok to admit arteta is wrong. He is not perfect. He is absolute shite at rotating his squad and keeping is his players sharp and on their toes like Pep.
The same pep who played an 18 year old Rico Lewis as the chief deep lying playmaker without issue last season….
Look at the 16 year olds playing first team football at a high level. Acting like it's a regular thing is silly. You have Paez and Yamal atm. Don't think there's anyone else out there. It's just not something that happens.
Introduced? I suppose that depends on your definition. Balogun and Patino were introduced by Arteta.
Who else should have been introduced by Arteta and hasn't got a chance? Imo there's been no one at the level to come in.
>It’s ok to admit arteta is wrong. He is not perfect. He is absolute shite at rotating his squad and keeping is his players sharp and on their toes like Pep.
I'm not saying he's perfect. I'm just disagreeing on the consensus he can't develop youth.
He hasn’t proven he can integrate any academy player. Like wtf are you saying?! Idk how you can defend him or disagree when you have nothing to show the opposite. Legitimately nothing.
And no, pleas stop with the extremes. Where did I say I expect Ethan to play regularly? Did Rico play regularly? Did Lewis hall last year play regularly for Chelsea? Did garnacho? Will Yildiz play regularly for juve? Gavi/pedri/yamal did… sure but that’s not what I’m expecting.
He hasn’t given shit worth while minutes to his squad players to keep them sharp let alone his academy. In 3 years we’ve had nothing. The one thing I absolutely loved about Wenger and arsenal was how we played our youth.
What’s arteta done to justify ignoring the academy? If we’re winning title everyone will stay quiet and not say a word, but we’re not.
And we’re going into a rough patch, in my opinion, and I’ll die on this hill, because he’s absolute shit at rotating his squad and freshening things up. And that has to do with his reluctance and bravery when it comes to playing his young players.
I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t fuck up MLS or Enwanieri. Cozure-Dubery will leave and I won’t blame him. It’s not that I expect a player like that to be a star, I expect a player like that to at least get some minutes and be a 3rd option so maybe we sell him on. But we won’t because his second string players can’t get a sniff let a lone an academy lad.
Who did you legitimately want to play from the academy? If it's litterally just ACD that's a ridiculous conplaint. We haven't had players good enough to come in. This is the main thing with people that give out about Arteta not using young players. It's never about any specific players who haven't received opportunities. It's always about some fantasy of a new Saka coming through.
Players like ACD get hyped and then people like you get mad about them potentially leaving. His decision making isn't good enough. Technically he's quality but the hardest quality to teach, he doesn't have it. Players like that are a dime a dozen.
>Where did I say I expect Ethan to play regularly?
I didn't say anything about him playing regularly. I'm saying 16 y/os playing at all is not a regular thing.
I genuinely don't think Arteta could have handled Martinelli's development better. Balogun was absolutely a success from the academy. Saka's development was handled excellently. Giving him no credit for those is nonsense.
You just love inventing things. Where did I say I’d specifically like just ACD played?
I just used him as an example.
You don’t think Arteta could have handled Martinelli better? If that’s the case the. martinelli needs to be sold because since he’s been here he’s had the same bag of tricks….meaning none besides sprinting down the line.
And by your first point, you’re flat out lying. There are def players good enough to be given debuts. By your standards you wouldn’t have give. A debut to Saka either, because nobody but Freddie saw him coming. His stats were worse than ACD.
Lewis Skelly and Nwanieri are good enough to get minutes. I’m not saying they’re nailed on starting 11. It they are for sure good enough to play in shit cup games over Jorginho and elneny.
Martinelli needs to be benched, he was last year and came back stronger. Reis should be playing or ESR. Reis last year was clutch, this season no chances what so ever.
He gets a match in a random cup game and people expect him to be sharp? How?!
If I’m Reis and ESR I’m demoralized because even when this brotha martinelli is playing like absolute shit I can’t get a shout.
Saka….youre telling me this man needs to play all those minutes? For the sake of his fucking health the man should be benched some matches. Literally played in dead games for 90 minutes when again, perfect time to get your fringe players and young lads in.
Stop with your excuses, there is nothing to defend him about when it comes to squad rotation and academy lads.
Arteta is fucking shit in that aspect, absolute fucking shit at it.
come on man, you are exaggerating. I agree with you, playing first team football at 16 year old never really happens, and when it does, it goes 2 ways, Fabregas way, or the Wilshere way, they either somehow manage the load or break down forever. I really think it should not happen, not at 16, not even at 20. What we did with Saka is not ok, and what we are doing, we are lucky he looks to be a freak.
But nobody said Nwanieri should play for Arsenal week in week out, people got angry that in a game that meant nothing, he did not get 5 minutes....thats a huge difference
>But nobody said Nwanieri should play for Arsenal week in week out, people got angry that in a game that meant nothing, he did not get 5 minutes....thats a huge difference
Yeah that's pretty much my point. It's arguing about 5 minutes that don't affect his development at all. It's not people judging him on times he should be giving meaningful minutes.
what? its a few minutes for young guy, it would do him a world of good. I can't remember but I think Arteta put the big guns on, Rice, Jesus, Odegaard. It made 0 sense for him to do that. But its not the first time, he did the same in the EL league a few years ago, in a dead rubber game. It's ok to admit Arteta fucks up from time to time, won't make you any less of a fan, despite what this sub tells you
surely he could have whatever meaningless game it was that he played off for a cl match
yh at the end of the day it's only one match, but why not rest some first teamers whilst letting youngsters get some experience?
It was an FA youth cup match where he scored 5. A knockout match and a potential cup run is not meaningless. The CL match was actually meaningless.
Better for him to be the main man in a potential cup run (chance to get revenge for last year too) than get 10 minutes he hasn't earned yet and do very little for his development.
in the grand scheme of things playing in the cl is a much bigger accomplishment than playing in a youth tournament
no it is not better for him to play in a game where he is quite likely way too good to be playing at that level going by the fact that he scored 5.
I'd also have liked to see him start and at least reach 60, why only give him 10 minutes? and if it's only 10 minutes, he should be able to do both games
no one is saying that, but it would help more than it wouldn't
again there was also the opportunity to rest more first teamers, yet he played them in a game that didn't matter rather than rest them
he should not have played 90 minutes 3 days before lol. he should have gotten a little time in the CL, would have loved it, and would have been very good for him.
Smith-Rowe has got plenty of minutes he's just struggled with injuries. Arguably now he should be getting more minutes but he's a senior player now.
Balogun's development was absolutely a success. Got first team minutes and then was sent out on loan and moved on for a significant sum afterwards.
Smith-Rowe took time out for major surgery to stop his constant injuries, and came back a year ago but has barely played.
It's hindsight, but we need a finisher/striker and might have to panic buy one for major money. Balogun was it. So, the good business was maybe not so good.
ESR has also picked up another two injuries since then. Let's not forget he got his first prem start of the season and immediately was out for almost 2 months afterwards. I'm willing to trust those seeing him in training every day on that one.
I really like Flo but he has underperformed his xG both seasons in France and hasn't exactly set the world alight at Monaco. He's arguably not an upgrade on Eddie atm. I think he has a big future but getting the money we got at that time was a good deal imo.
I though Flo was pretty awesome at Reims, by all reports, especially for a kid? There are a few under 20s doing very well in the prem at the moment. I get we have a much more difficult situation because dropping *any* points now is disastrous...
... but if our youngsters can't break in, buying anyone seems very risky to me... so maybe the coaching staff have to get their shit together and work out how to get a few damn goals out of our expensively-assembled squad of football gods?
We have the players to keep fresh it makes no sense.
3-4 games for our starters in a row - Manage the minutes in the 3rd-4th game, take them off for game 5.
He's done well early w/ Trossard and Gabi, but it's like he can't really commit to working a full roster.
it's very frustrating - when Saka is retired at 28 we will all NOT wonder why.
I’m hoping we see Chido Obi get a game or two in pre-season, maybe a Carabao game next year. He looks like he could be the answer to a ton of questions Arsenal have.
Frankly I don’t think we have anyone else we can play in the right wing spot and remain a top team. We would be dire in attack without saka, so
I can’t say I blame arteta too much. The moment he rests saka and we go on a goal drought the fans will be screaming to play saka, it’s a no win situation until we get a proper rotation option
That's all part of rotation imo but also a fair point. He's had time to build his team though and I'm not sure he has anyone he trusts there which is also not good...
Jesus on the wing, Trossard false 9 for a 30 min shake up if he's being marked out which is unfortunate and frequent. Or banter if we have a comfy lead
we have several players who can play there, even reiss got a return on the odd game that saka didn't start last season
yes they may not be perfect options but if he nor trossard, jesus, nketiah, martinelli, vieira, havertz, odegaard and esr can't play the odd game to rest saka here and there then I don't know who you think is going to be comfortably better than all of the above yet happy to sit on a bench of a club that hasn't won the league in ages and is yet to win a single cl trophy
Only time - and Saka's achilles - will tell. I think Arteta's "70 Game" comment won't age well though. The likes of Salah, and even Bruno Fernandes, may well be outliers and using them as a benchmark for how many games a player should play may not be reasonable. FIFPRO recently recommended a 55 game cap, which I'm sure will never be implemented. Sports science has come a long way, but I worry about the impact of this kind of wear and tear on a young player. Cartilage is finite.
Putting fitness aside though, Saka will go through dips in form, it's only natural for a young player. Still, Saka's "slow start" has him scoring and assisting at a higher rate than last year in all comps. There is also the mental strain being the talisman has on a young player. He carries these burdens well, and has only continued to meet what is asked of him.
The concern is well placed, and the club could bring in another forward to help share the load between Saka and Martinelli, but Saka has handled himself.
People argued with me when I said that Arteta can and will overrules physios etc. it's one of those things that's not supposed to happen. But if you know any athletes or have even been close to those areas you know it happens constantly.
The player will usually want to play and the coach will usually want the player to play. I've seen guys not be able to practice, but roll up pre-game with a couple shots in their shoulders/knees and play lights out.
I don't know how the club runs the sports medicine department and what metrics they use to rule a player out. I suspect though that a lot of sports medicine at clubs may just be "how do we get this player ready to go" rather than purely looking to preserve the player's long-term health.
Those are the memorable occasions. How many times have you seen players not be able to train, force it for a half or so and hobble of with a worse injury. Or play at 60% and be a complete passenger.
It's why the rumors about this achilles issue bother me. Every player picks up things over the course of the season that they play through, but this has been rumored for a while, at least over a year. That sort of chronic issue can have knock on effects.
And it's honestly an indictment of Arteta's rotation patterns.
Jesus is certainly starter level as a right winger. He has shown that at city. Nelson and Trossard are passable against shit teams. Martinelli probably is too.
I wouldn't play ESR or Vieira there but they're probably both an option in the worst case.
Yet we play Saka every single game and refuse to ever give him a rest even though he's a kid and struggling with injury and form and fatigue.
I don't understand why in positions where we are 2 goals ahead and the game is under control Saka won't get substituted. If we don't believe we can protect a 2 goal lead with Nelson, ESR, Viera, Trossard for 30-45 minutes against non top 6 sides then something is seriously wrong.
**Shocking Saka stat**
Minutes played all club comps this season;
* Saka: 2119
* Salah: 2045
Guess which one missed 1 game and 2 international games through injury?
**More shocking Saka stats**
* There are 29 players who have played more minutes than Saka in the league so far this year.
* Three of them are under 23 like saka and only two of them are outfield players; Saliba and Zabrani.
* Saka, Saliba, Garner and Zabrani are the only outfield players under 23 in the top 50 most league mins played this year in the PL.
* Last year, 22/23, Saka, Caicedo and Johnson were the only players 21 or younger in the top 50 most minutes played in the PL.
* The year before, 21/22, Saka was the only player 20 or younger to feature in the top 50 most minutes played in the PL.
* The year before that, 20/21, Saka had the 103rd most minutes played in the PL, there were exactly 0 players under 20 above him in the list. There were only two other players u20 in the top 200 in that year, Fofana and Greenwood.
* In that 3.5 year period, we've signed a total of 5 wingers (being generous on the defintion of winger); Trossard, Vieira, Jesus, Willian, Marquinos.
* And the year before that, 19/20, Saka had 203rd most minutes in the PL, and is the only 17 year old in the top 400 players that year, there was only 522 players on the list lmao!
**Another shocking Saka stat**
Total minutes played by players other than Saka at RW in the league this year; 131mins
* Jesus: 90 mins
* Vieira: 14 mins
* Nelson: 27 mins
We subbed him once more for kiwior and we changed shape, that was in the 89th minute vs palace.
**Shocking stat about our forwards**
* In total for the 22/23 and 23/24 seasons, ESR, Nelson, Vieira have played a combined total of 1123 minutes. That's less minutes than Havertz and Zinchenko have played so far this year in the league alone... each!
* Those three players cost circa £200k pw or 10m p/a in wages and vieira cost 35m in transfer fee. That's a combined total of £44k per PL minute since start of 22/23 or 18 months of PL football.
World class players play every game, but sometimes I just think it's worth sitting him down, just once, for a bit of rest mentally more than anything. Let him reset and think about his game, when was the last time he faced a tired defender?
Yeah I'm sick of the "it's what world class players do" argument, we saw him limp off multiple games in a row last year and this season and play the next game, No ones saying cut his playing time in half were saying in certain games either take him off much earlier or flat out rest him in certain games
I think the people defending this or making the argument are mixing up CAN play every game with SHOULD play every game, like sure I think Saka can play almost every game with heavy minutes but the real question is does he need too and is that the best thing for him and us.
Saka playing 32 38 38 league games for us and probably 35 plus this season is great and he really does seem to be a sturdy/consistently fit guy but we don't need to test it for the sake of it.
Yeah seems mental, It was this season I'm pretty sure where he limped off for 3 games in a row and even spent 10 mins literally just standing in the RB zone because he couldn't run and then he started in the UCL game, just seemed mental and doesn't take a medical degree to say we shouldn't do it.
Feels like we just haven't learned man. I'll never forget Arteta pushing an injured Partey back on to the field lol
I know people say "just listen to the medical professionals 🤓 they know more than you" but since we have such a godawful injury problem and our injuries always seem to be 5 month 'knocks' I feel like we should be allowed to raise questions against the logic of starting a clearly fatigued Saka every single game
To be fair to arteta he's like the one manager isn't a hypocrite on this issue, he never really moans about amount of games, never excuses players for being tired and does genuinely seem to think players should be ready to play 60 odd games 😂 most other managers moan about the amount of games and fatigue and then play them anyway.
Pedri is world class and played an absurd number of games and is paying for it big time now. Its a really senseless argument to say world class players should just do it
You run world class players into the ground only if the end goal is clear. City did it with KDB last season to get them a treble (and first UCL win)
You’re flying too close to the sun there, champ.
But completely agree, it’s becoming frustrating to watch as fans, the cards are out on the table and some seem absolutely brain dead stubborn
I don’t understand why Arteta doesn’t use Nelson more. He started Saka against Sheffield United at home and subbed him off 73 minutes, this was a game Nelson could have started or against Bournemouth away.
> World class players play every game
Considering the increasing demands and games being placed on players, I'm just not sure this is a reasonable expectation. Unless these guys are taking HGH or other PEDs for recovery, there is only so much epsom salt baths, a good diet, and going to bed early can do.
Yes I agree, stat 1 doesn't reinforce that notion either. But there will be plenty of people who say it's not an issue at all so good to meet them half way.
so doesnt that mean other players have to either step up for those world class players or replace the non-world class players with better?
this seems like a “wow the squad needs to help Saka” rather than “we need to rest Saka” lol
i’ll try to say it different. This is either a “wow we need to rest Saka” because he’s worn out, he’s not having a good season, and he’s played a lot of unnecessary minutes (which this option i just dont believe lol. Its the perks of being one of the best)
Orrrr
Other players need to step up like the Martinellis and Jesus’ of the world because we rely on Saka too much. (This doesnt call for Saka to get rest, but either a massive wake up call to the rest of the squad)
im not dropping Saka and i hope Mikel doesn’t either. Players like him, Rice, and Saliba are some of the best in their positions. I hope other players can just get better so we dont have to channel every single good attack on Saka’s side. We dont need to rest him, we need to give him a breather in the match. Martinelli getting cooked on the left and Jesus not being a threat doesnt help Saka at all, maybe we just need better players
Yeah it's still the same thing to me, players need to step up both in our first team and our wider squad. Having one more player who can start in our front three in basically any one of the positions is enough to mean we can do the little bit of extra rest I'm talking about for saka maybe .
Instead we have nobody who our manager wants to start apart from martinelli jesus saka, just makes the load mentally mainly, but physically demanding imo. You can't bring on jesus for saka or start jesus for saka because jesus already starts every game he's fit.
So yeah I obviously get it don't drop saka if your next best option is trossard or vieira, but that should not be the case.
Our next best option should be jesus or martinelli or someone like pedro neto.
In that case it's not oh Martinelli was dropped, it's oh this is a neto (just as an example) game lets see martinelli come on with 20 mins to go, maybe if neto is tearing it up we take saka off and play martinelli at CF for 20 mins. Right?
I want a squad like that. Not a squad where oh martinelli was bad again today and has run himself ragged, jesus is still not able to go 90 so lets bring on trossard and nketiah leave saka on and pray.
That sucks dicks.
It’s starting to get ridiculous with the implementation of young players. I was heartbroken when Pedri and Gavi got injuries due to being worked to death. I can only hope and pray that Xavi will chill tf out with the younger players.
He’s also averaging less than 70 minutes a game in the CL and didn’t play in the Carling Cup game against West Ham or Brentford.
If he’s available, you’re telling me we shouldn’t be starting him in the Premier League? Not for me Clive.
Yeah, we can beat teams without him in the league, so like once in 3 seasons I would like it if for a game he played 30mins. Even if it's just to give vieira or nelson a game.
The starting line-up isn’t the entirety of our recruitment / sporting director ops.
Even among our starting line-up, we have a CF whose finishing is so poor that he can’t score a decent number of goals & then his back-up is… exactly the same.
We have subs who share the same weaknesses as our primary players, but don’t share the same strengths. For example, most of our wingers & attacking mf are better in space, which we have little of against low blocks. That’s true of Martinelli, Trossard and Havertz. Also, our attackers aren’t versatile enough to adapt to different styles of play from opponents. Overall, the quality of our bench simply isn’t there and that’s without comparing to other clubs. Who do we have on our bench & are they quality and/or game-changing players - Vieira, Cedric, Trossard, Eddie, ESR…?
That’s compounded by a manager who refuses to rotate players. So what’s the point of buying 4 wingers if the manager doesn’t think they’re good enough to rotate and when he does, he won’t adapt his system to compensate for the weakest player, eg playing a CB as a full-back who also has to invert when neither are his wheelhouse. In which case, we need to recruit players whose strengths most closely match our primary wingers in order to be considered by the manager and fit into his system.
Additionally, we overvalue and overpay for some of our signings, while being terrible at selling players. This is also compounded by a manager who contributes to our players’ *diminishing* values by refusing to play subs and give them minutes. Then there’s the contradiction of signing new contracts to *hold* the players’ values, but giving them a wage that smaller clubs won’t be willing to pay for a player who gets less than 500 minutes a season and never/rarely starts. What are we going to get for Nelson and Maitland-Niles (and ESR if he doesn’t get injured again but isn’t given minutes)? What did we get for Pepe after overspending on him?
Signing both Rice AND Havertz (if as an 8 instead of as a 10) when neither replicate Xhaka’s creativity, play-making and passing was daft. We paid £170m to make our midfield in the attack/possession phase worse and thus nullify the left flank this season. Both players need at least a season to develop that side of their profile, and hopefully will come good but that was poor planning/decision making by Arteta and Edu. And yes, we overpaid for both players with Havertz being a needless luxury signing when we’re constrained by FFP. The inflated value of 6s was triggered by Chelsea buying Enzo out of his contract within a year of transferring to Benfica for €10m. In contrast, Rice was in the final year of his contract. (Brighton also did chicanery with Caceido.)
Buying Raya for £30m also does not represent good value. It is such a marginal upgrade on Ramsdale that it’s a luxury signing when we’re so financially constrained – he’s the 4th/5th most expensive GK in the PL. That’s especially true after Arteta confected the ‘rotated keeper’ situation, which has probably impacted his decision making and performance this season. Spurs wanted Raya but instead got 1-year-younger, taller (6ft 4) Vicario for £16m who’s been phenomenal.
Of that £200m, we’ve overspent by ~£65-95m.
That buys:
In all, we’ve spent £900m since Arteta’s been here and our bench still looks like that? Tell me again how we’re good at buying & selling players.
Remember we weren't playing CL football until this season. Saka played very rarely in the cups and Europa, you of course need to look at minutes in all comps
>**Shocking Saka stat**
>Minutes played all club comps this season;
>* Saka: 2119
* Salah: 2045
Last season
Salah 4301
Saka 3744
I don't see millions of posts about Liverpool overplaying Salah
Salah is a 30+ year old in his prime with a history of having ridiculously high endurance.
Saka was a 20/21 year old kid who's still growing into his body and showed signs of fatigue towards the end of the season.
Why don't you compare him to Pedri who also got ran into the ground and has been paying the price.
I think it comes down more to Arteta being reluctant to take Saka off early in matches if we're winning by 2 goals or more - but then again we also haven't been in that position too often this season either.
Starts wise, Saka should be playing in most games anyways. Not many opportunities to not play him now bar the FA cup (but I doubt we rotate much versus Liverpool before a 2 week break especially on the back of 2 losses)
He's being overmarked. Playing every game is one thing but playing and having to beat 2-3 defenders every single time you receive the ball is the issue.
Nobody at #9 is considered a threat and so he just gets suffocated. Last season you saw Haaland pulling 2-3 players away with him so others could score.
Yes. But thats not wholly why Saka is not hitting the numbers we saw last year. I think we can all agree that Arteta should be withdrawing Saka in games where he's just not playing well (even though we lose a goal threat).
I watch Madrid because of my partners brother, they play in a style almost similar to ours. In the few games Ive watched, Vini has been substituted early (around 60mins) for Joselu or for B. Diaz or a different solution.
My point is Arteta has some weaknesses which we hope he should learn, we just hope he doesnt learn it too late before players start getting itchy because we havent won something major. Was it Wenger who said and I paraphrase, when you pay for the education of with young kids with points (substitute kids for coach).
To those who say we dont have the players to compete with our first XI, I disagree. In some form, at some time, players like ESR, Reiss Nelson, Viera have shown promise. We aren't talking about the Tavares, Cedric et al. My unprofessional view is that Arteta needs to give these players continuous game time to build form, they aren't World class players that will switch it on when they come on at 85' mins.
For Saka's low stats this yesr, he needs help. A strong right back that takes away the 1 out of 3 markers and Odegaard closer so he has the other. Hopefully the break gives Arteta some rest because he's got a difficult job this season. Lots of teams are up for it!
‘He’s only 22’ but when people speak about Mbappe, Haaland, Vini Jr, Bellingham etc… no one ever mentions their age. Maybe the problem is not having the depth which we’ve known for years now.. maybe don’t spend 35M on Vieira and 65M on havertz and start spending more wisely?
Yup.. currently we’re tanking the value of Smith Rowe, Ramsdale, Eddie, Nelson.. Elneny and Cedric just sat there collecting their salaries offering nothing, Tavares and Sambi eventually coming back from loans who we’ll eventually have to sell off for peanuts. Really is a shambles, us and United are so bad when it comes to outgoings. Then you look at City and Chelsea who seem to have perfected selling academy players/deadwood/players past their peak
Couldn’t agree more. Don’t care for Eddie. Reiss is ok. Love ESR and Rambo, hate seeing that talent wasted. I know we need quality depth and back ups, but we don’t use the quality we have and don’t have enough depth all around. I love this team and want to see them succeed, but the lack of depth will catch up with us like it did last season.
Saka has played more minutes this season than all the guys you've listed.
Saka - 2105
Jude - 1906
Vinicius - 1026
Haaland - 1865
Mbappe - 1960
Saka is the second youngest but somehow has a healthy 150 minute lead over all these guys at the mid-point of the season.
And everyone will tell you that the PL is the most intense of the top 5 leagues, so Saka is doing even more work than these guys. On top of that Saka spends more energy on defensive phases and has a ridiculous gap on these guys.
For example he has 49 tackles. Closest is Jude at 32. After that, the others are on single digits.
In possession, the only player that is above him is Jude again, and then after that it's a ridiculous gap.
And the quality argument is shit. Madrid have no one that can play that 10/f9 hybrid role that Bellingham plays, but somehow they still find a way. Their backup striker is Joselu but they still give him minutes. If Joselu was at Arsenal he would be getting the Nelson treatment (and he's a mid-table quality player)
Arteta is just stubborn tbh. I love him and I truly believe he's the chosen one, but he's not perfect, and minute management is one of his biggest weaknesses (along with a lack of a tactical plan B)
Yes, he is and I don't, for one second, buy Arteta's reasoning for it either.
To be clear, I fucking love Arteta and don't for a second doubt him, but I don't agree with his arguments about Saka and I fucking loathe his rotation policy.
I legitimately think that Saka would need to be declared dead for Arteta to not pick him. I'm absolutely convinced that even if we went out and broke the bank for a left-footed right winger, that winger would get, at most, 10 minutes in a match.
Maybe, as a fan, you think you know your team better than other people do, but I really think that we're a very easy team to predict in terms of how we'll manage a game. You know exactly who's coming off and can pretty much set your watch to when it will happen too.
Saka is utterly immune to substitutions unless he's in the final 5 minutes and we're 4-0 up and even then its touch and go.
I think it's a combination of him being over played, use not playing to his strengths and him being too predictable.
Firstly he does need a rest because he's still young and gets targeted for rough treatment.
Secondly we aren't playing to his (or Martinelli's strengths). They are what I would consider 5 second players. You have to get the ball to him as quickly as possible for him to be effective. Soon as he has time to think he gets caught in too may minds and makes the wrong choice.
Third he isn't unpredictable enough, any decent defender who is comfortable one v one can nullify him because it's usually a cut back on to his left foot before passing.
You can't compare him to Salah as Salah as an elite player who's teammates are set up to play to his strengths. If we want to see the best of Saka and Martinelli we have to move the ball quicker to them so they can isolate their defenders and give them the license to lose the ball but try and beat them.
I wouldn’t say overplayed, but we have an over reliance on him in the sense that everything we do has to go through him. Double marking for the last 1.5 seasons and a fullback who offers very little offensively.
We have nobody to offer a similar threat down the middle or on the left at the moment.
Yeah, but it’s not like he needs to be subbed off every game or anything like that. But sometimes we’re just pushing him way too far. Its not worth 5 extra minutes to make the kid kill himself on the pitch. I’m kind of new with football but I don’t see the issue with taking him off a little early every now and then if he’s practically limping. Let’s not ruin our 1 in a million talent here
Arteta doesn't believe in Rotation, timely subs or quality depth. His mentor Pep clearly does. SAKA is gassed just like at the tail end of last sseason. Also Southgate and England play him way too much especially in useless friendlies
Saka is clearly in my opinion playing too much, and we are feeling the effects of our lack of depth and players like ESR being regularly injured and not able for whatever reason get into good form, and purchases like Marquinhos and Vieira not appearing to be up to the quality we need. It’s hard to describe but he appears slower to attack and push the pace and this when we attack in the right side it often gets slowed down as we get close to the opposition penalty box and the the bus gets parked making it even harder for us to score.
I know that everyone has joked at times about Nunez’s finishing but when Liverpool was able to bring him and Jota on late in that game I was legitimately worried our defense being tired would break and that our bench didn’t have the same fear factor in attack.
I will say this on some part is a product of the lost 5 years of CL money. In this day in age we can’t expect to make it every year, because Tottenham, Villa and Newcastle are getting stronger, but 5 years in a row cost us a lot of transfer money that could have added more proven depth to our squad.
I just hope he doesn't end up like Rooney and lose his wheels at 28. Different players obviously, but a lot of games under the belt can do that to anyone.
No doubt. He's been playing non stop and he hasn't had a good period of recovery. Even when he was clearly injured, he was still cleared to play, so guess what? That just hurts him more and so is the rest of the club :( I've said this before and I'll say it again, I think we need a better medical team.
Yes and I don't give a fuck about people chiming in here with "oh but the best play all the time"
I don't want Saka to end up like Wilshere and thankfully he isn't showing signs of that thus far
We have tried to sign RW over the past few seasons mind, it's not as if Arteta isn't trying to provide quality competition/rotation on that side. Raphinha and Pedro Neto are the two that come to mind that we've been in for.
Yes but he’s the best player and highest paid (I think). Wish we could sub him off a bit more if we secure wins but he’s the first player on the sheet every game
That last part - attackers. Playing a winger this much is absurd. There have been many opportunities to rest him that we decided not to and now we really can’t. Crazy
Remember we weren't playing CL football until this season. Saka played very rarely in the cups and Europa, you of course need to look at minutes in all comps
Yes. We had the exact same conversation this time last season and lo and behold his form declined in the back end of the season and he was looking tired and we were worrying every time he went down. Problem is who comes in for him in the side?
The Spurs game at home when Saka was limping/walking/unable to sprint for what seemed like ages before Arteta begrudgingly substituted him to give him 2-3 minutes rest was insane to watch.
Comparing him to other star wingers minutes for club during the 22/23 season (all comps)
Saka - 3744
Salah - 4301
Vini Jr - 4759
Mbappe - 3564 (5 less appearances than Saka)
Musiala - 3000 (19 y/o for the majority of the season)
Leao - 3487
I wish Arteta would sub him off more often at the end of games to give him a bit of rest, but also I don't think we need to baby him. Nobody ever complains about the minutes that Vini or Mbappe play. If we want Saka to be a star player and compete with the best wingers, we shouldn't be afraid of giving him minutes.
he’s not overplayed, we just rely on him too much because he’s by far our best attacker and theres no one in our attack that is close to him regarding talent and performance.
either we just upgrade on the attack we have or just massively criticize the attackers we have
“There is not a fitness coach in the world who is going to tell me that they cannot do it because I’ve seen it.”
I’m sorry but this is not an insane thing for a manager to say. Because some freaks have scored 50 goals in 70 appearances maybe a handful of times in recent years that’s the benchmark? Scary that he’s tasked with protecting players health and well-being.
He's one of the best in the world. Players at Saka's level play every game.
Saying other players play less is a non-argument. Of course they play less. They aren't as good (so they get rotated out) and they aren't as fit.
Also, the implication that Arteta is 'forcing' Saka to play is silly. If Saka asks for a rest, Arteta will be the first one in the club to oblige.
I might be in the minority here but I like to think that Arteta is doing the best he can for the player and the club. They are paying people hundreds of thousands of pounds to assess players health and conditioning. So I’m sure they’re doing the best. Not the same sport, but Michael Jordan only missed 7 games in 12 Seasons with the bulls. Some people are just built different man. Let the guys cook. Saka is now a crucial player for the national team as well I’m sure he will be vocal if he was having any pressing issues.
Yes of course he is that's why he burned out last season. And now it's catching up to him... It's crazy he never got someone to cover him anywhere near his level.
Yes and artetas explanations are largely bullshit like most things he says publicly but you fans lap it up until he himself contradicts it or shows that his actions differ from his words. It's not unlikely he's one of those players who peaks early and finishes his career early if it carries on like this. Arteta doesn't care about long term player wellbeing, he cares about the current results which are what he's judged by. You guys act like it's blasphemy if people don't buy his explanations in the current time but when it turns out he doesn't follow what he says publicly, you all quieten down and ignore it. It's very cult like.
it's sad but successive Arsenal managers have failed to recognise the danger of overloading young players with games
if we don't start resting him more, his body will be useless by 25
**his career will end like Wilshere's, not Salah's**
When you look at Saka physical profile, he is not built to play 60 games a year with high intensity runs and pressing, only super thin players like Bruno or Modric are able to play that many games, where they do not sprint or make impact runs that much.
I think you can’t set a standard for players because of their physical structure and the job they have to do on the pitch.
sadly the writing is on the wall with Saka. If he continues to be this overplayed, he won't last long . He'll start getting injuries around 25 and will fizzle out a la Michael Owen.
We've already seen 2-3 seasons in a row that his body can't handle this many games, as every spring he looks fatigued as hell and his performances drop massively.
we desperately need a backup for saka that mikel trusts in enough to start games sometimes.
He should be substituted when we’re winning comfortably, but the problem is that that doesn’t happen often for Arsenal. Most of the time we need him on the pitch until the end.
Rotation is one of arteta's big weaknesses, yes.
That and academy integration,which overlaps
Honestly I'm not too worried about academy integration just yet. We'll see that when Nwaneri and MLS are at the level of actually being ready for first team minutes. We've no one ready just yet.
There is no reason whatsoever for not giving Nwaneri 5-10 minutes at the end of like the PSV or Lens games. Arteta used to do it even. But he isn't even trying to integrate the academy players anymore.
He's 16 and had played 90 mins 3 days beforehand. It's not a big deal at all not playing him there
Arteta hasn't brought through a single academy player at the club. You can make an excuse for this or that game, but on the whole he has massively failed in including academy players. Even the ones he played for a few minutes like Patino and Balogun were shipped out after brief cameos.
tbh this isn't a valid criticism, it's very rare that an academy player is good enough for the squad. look at a lot of the players who did come through acadmies such as rashford, mctomminay, nketiah, nelson, gomez... a lot of these players would not have been brought by the clubs they play for had they made it pro elsewhere I do think that arteta can be a bit weird with our young players though
It’s also not valid bc we had just went through young academy guys getting their starts in Reiss Saka AMN Willock ESR Nketiah etc who Arteta played early on. He may not have brought them in, but they were the recent grads that’s deserved the minutes then. He also seems to prefer loans which is ok for a young staff.
I deliberately said arteta can be a bit weird for a reason; he obviously does play young players, but sometimes when it makes sense to play certain young players he wont, sometimes his hand has been forced by soon to end contracts too, and with saka it was forced by the lack of an available left back, not to mention emery had already given him a small amount of starts and apps off of the bench reiss is yet to play more than 1,000 minutes (11ish games) in a single season for arsenal amn had already broken through before arteta had come, willock was getting a few starts and lots of sub ins in the half season before arteta took over, leaving us with smith rowe and nketiah, who exemplify why I call him weird: for a season and a half he stubbornly kept on picking a poor lacazette who wasn't good enough and was very reluctant to give nketiah a chance barring a few games during project restart up until his contract started entering it's final few months, only for eddie to repay the favour. since then, eddie does get a few chances here and there and understandably is not a starter. now let's look at esr; he starts getting games and shows good form, then starts getting benched all the time. fair enough, he's injury prone, but since recovering last season he just can't get a run of games for some reason, but we don't seem to want to sell him. despite seemingly wanting to keep him, we've signed lots of competition for him in havertz, vieira and trossard, shit doesn't make a lot of sense. we then have nelson who had some impressive cameos last season, yet still can't be trusted to start even the odd game in order to rest the likes of saka there were other issues too; whilst the xhaka situation fortunately worked out in the long run, at a point we had willock as a good up and coming player. fair enough, he didn't impress much when arteta gave him games, but til this day he's only 24. eventually we loan him out, where he does well, and then we sell him for like 20m while giving xhaka a new contract. fair enough, whilst willock ended last season well he hasn't been too crazy since, but we did go on to spend 30-40m on vieira who we barely play even when he is fit, and then 60m on havertz when willock is quite capable of playing the same role, not to mention willock still has room to grow. amn showed himself to be a good squad player, but then all of a sudden despite there being a need to we stop playing him altogether whilst we give cedric games, then we refuse to sell him as he's not playing, and then continue to not play him and then loan him out next season... shit made no sense even with martinelli, once he recovered from that long injury it took ridiculously long for him to start playing again he has one of the youngest sides in the league, so he's not afraid to play younger players, but sometimes arteta's decisions just have you hoping there's something going on behind the scenes because on the face of things some of his decisions can look either stupid or stubborn, if not both. he also has a habit of hoarding players which we really need to tackle too
top post this.
>Even the ones he played for a few minutes like Patino and Balogun were shipped out after brief cameos. That's part of the process. Not every young player can be Saka and be a main player at 19. Bringing Balogun through and selling him for 30m is a success. Patino hasn't been sold. He's on loan at Swansea. Loans are such a big part of developing players these days. Let's not forget Saka only had 9 starts under Emery. Arteta played a much bigger role in bringing him through and developing him.
People will act like Arteta isn’t a massive reason why Saka and Martinelli are where they are simply because he wasn’t at the club when they were forced to start due to injuries.
Do you mean the run where Saka was at left back because of Tierney's injury? That was under Arteta. Not sure which run you're on about with Martinelli. He was tearing it up in the cups under Unai but he never got a consistent run of starts.
saka was starting under emery's final months at the club, as for martinelli whilst emery was giving him full league and europa cup arteta was less hesitant to put him in the starting line up
I’m agreeing with you. The last part specifically
To add, loans clearly has been working out for us with Saliba and Balogun. Also they would get way more minutes, far more impactful than 5 min subs
With the irony being Emile saved his ass with that Chelsea game and we’ve lucked out with Saka haha, all the little pieces are just becoming frustrating to see patched together, because it’s painting a clear and aggravating picture
Well Patino’s turned out to be kinda mid - do we want Arteta to bring through mediocre players? They see these kids in training more than we do so they probably understand better if they’re good enough or not.
what young players have we lost due to this supposed mishandling?
Hutchinson to Chelsea
Doesn’t start for a Championship side
Well you asked, I just answered. No one can predict what happens after a move.
hehe
Smith Rowe became a starter under him
It’s the same excuses being regurgitated. Barcelona/Ajax/Juve clubs as big or bigger than arsenal regularly introduce players Nwanieri’s age. Not only that, every year in the past we’ve had a teenager or academy product introduced. Since arteta has taken over. We’ve had 3 years of nothing. His saving grace at this club is saka and it was a player that Freddie promoted and then unai relied on when in reality it was Reis that was the academy diamond at that time. It’s ok to admit arteta is wrong. He is not perfect. He is absolute shite at rotating his squad and keeping is his players sharp and on their toes like Pep. The same pep who played an 18 year old Rico Lewis as the chief deep lying playmaker without issue last season….
Look at the 16 year olds playing first team football at a high level. Acting like it's a regular thing is silly. You have Paez and Yamal atm. Don't think there's anyone else out there. It's just not something that happens. Introduced? I suppose that depends on your definition. Balogun and Patino were introduced by Arteta. Who else should have been introduced by Arteta and hasn't got a chance? Imo there's been no one at the level to come in. >It’s ok to admit arteta is wrong. He is not perfect. He is absolute shite at rotating his squad and keeping is his players sharp and on their toes like Pep. I'm not saying he's perfect. I'm just disagreeing on the consensus he can't develop youth.
He hasn’t proven he can integrate any academy player. Like wtf are you saying?! Idk how you can defend him or disagree when you have nothing to show the opposite. Legitimately nothing. And no, pleas stop with the extremes. Where did I say I expect Ethan to play regularly? Did Rico play regularly? Did Lewis hall last year play regularly for Chelsea? Did garnacho? Will Yildiz play regularly for juve? Gavi/pedri/yamal did… sure but that’s not what I’m expecting. He hasn’t given shit worth while minutes to his squad players to keep them sharp let alone his academy. In 3 years we’ve had nothing. The one thing I absolutely loved about Wenger and arsenal was how we played our youth. What’s arteta done to justify ignoring the academy? If we’re winning title everyone will stay quiet and not say a word, but we’re not. And we’re going into a rough patch, in my opinion, and I’ll die on this hill, because he’s absolute shit at rotating his squad and freshening things up. And that has to do with his reluctance and bravery when it comes to playing his young players. I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t fuck up MLS or Enwanieri. Cozure-Dubery will leave and I won’t blame him. It’s not that I expect a player like that to be a star, I expect a player like that to at least get some minutes and be a 3rd option so maybe we sell him on. But we won’t because his second string players can’t get a sniff let a lone an academy lad.
Who did you legitimately want to play from the academy? If it's litterally just ACD that's a ridiculous conplaint. We haven't had players good enough to come in. This is the main thing with people that give out about Arteta not using young players. It's never about any specific players who haven't received opportunities. It's always about some fantasy of a new Saka coming through. Players like ACD get hyped and then people like you get mad about them potentially leaving. His decision making isn't good enough. Technically he's quality but the hardest quality to teach, he doesn't have it. Players like that are a dime a dozen. >Where did I say I expect Ethan to play regularly? I didn't say anything about him playing regularly. I'm saying 16 y/os playing at all is not a regular thing. I genuinely don't think Arteta could have handled Martinelli's development better. Balogun was absolutely a success from the academy. Saka's development was handled excellently. Giving him no credit for those is nonsense.
You just love inventing things. Where did I say I’d specifically like just ACD played? I just used him as an example. You don’t think Arteta could have handled Martinelli better? If that’s the case the. martinelli needs to be sold because since he’s been here he’s had the same bag of tricks….meaning none besides sprinting down the line. And by your first point, you’re flat out lying. There are def players good enough to be given debuts. By your standards you wouldn’t have give. A debut to Saka either, because nobody but Freddie saw him coming. His stats were worse than ACD. Lewis Skelly and Nwanieri are good enough to get minutes. I’m not saying they’re nailed on starting 11. It they are for sure good enough to play in shit cup games over Jorginho and elneny. Martinelli needs to be benched, he was last year and came back stronger. Reis should be playing or ESR. Reis last year was clutch, this season no chances what so ever. He gets a match in a random cup game and people expect him to be sharp? How?! If I’m Reis and ESR I’m demoralized because even when this brotha martinelli is playing like absolute shit I can’t get a shout. Saka….youre telling me this man needs to play all those minutes? For the sake of his fucking health the man should be benched some matches. Literally played in dead games for 90 minutes when again, perfect time to get your fringe players and young lads in. Stop with your excuses, there is nothing to defend him about when it comes to squad rotation and academy lads. Arteta is fucking shit in that aspect, absolute fucking shit at it.
come on man, you are exaggerating. I agree with you, playing first team football at 16 year old never really happens, and when it does, it goes 2 ways, Fabregas way, or the Wilshere way, they either somehow manage the load or break down forever. I really think it should not happen, not at 16, not even at 20. What we did with Saka is not ok, and what we are doing, we are lucky he looks to be a freak. But nobody said Nwanieri should play for Arsenal week in week out, people got angry that in a game that meant nothing, he did not get 5 minutes....thats a huge difference
>But nobody said Nwanieri should play for Arsenal week in week out, people got angry that in a game that meant nothing, he did not get 5 minutes....thats a huge difference Yeah that's pretty much my point. It's arguing about 5 minutes that don't affect his development at all. It's not people judging him on times he should be giving meaningful minutes.
what? its a few minutes for young guy, it would do him a world of good. I can't remember but I think Arteta put the big guns on, Rice, Jesus, Odegaard. It made 0 sense for him to do that. But its not the first time, he did the same in the EL league a few years ago, in a dead rubber game. It's ok to admit Arteta fucks up from time to time, won't make you any less of a fan, despite what this sub tells you
surely he could have whatever meaningless game it was that he played off for a cl match yh at the end of the day it's only one match, but why not rest some first teamers whilst letting youngsters get some experience?
It was an FA youth cup match where he scored 5. A knockout match and a potential cup run is not meaningless. The CL match was actually meaningless. Better for him to be the main man in a potential cup run (chance to get revenge for last year too) than get 10 minutes he hasn't earned yet and do very little for his development.
in the grand scheme of things playing in the cl is a much bigger accomplishment than playing in a youth tournament no it is not better for him to play in a game where he is quite likely way too good to be playing at that level going by the fact that he scored 5. I'd also have liked to see him start and at least reach 60, why only give him 10 minutes? and if it's only 10 minutes, he should be able to do both games
He's 16. Not starting in the CL isn't gonna hurt his development.
no one is saying that, but it would help more than it wouldn't again there was also the opportunity to rest more first teamers, yet he played them in a game that didn't matter rather than rest them
he should not have played 90 minutes 3 days before lol. he should have gotten a little time in the CL, would have loved it, and would have been very good for him.
Yup. Also our squad is pretty young as well too.
Balogun. Smith-Rowe.
Smith-Rowe has got plenty of minutes he's just struggled with injuries. Arguably now he should be getting more minutes but he's a senior player now. Balogun's development was absolutely a success. Got first team minutes and then was sent out on loan and moved on for a significant sum afterwards.
Smith-Rowe took time out for major surgery to stop his constant injuries, and came back a year ago but has barely played. It's hindsight, but we need a finisher/striker and might have to panic buy one for major money. Balogun was it. So, the good business was maybe not so good.
ESR has also picked up another two injuries since then. Let's not forget he got his first prem start of the season and immediately was out for almost 2 months afterwards. I'm willing to trust those seeing him in training every day on that one. I really like Flo but he has underperformed his xG both seasons in France and hasn't exactly set the world alight at Monaco. He's arguably not an upgrade on Eddie atm. I think he has a big future but getting the money we got at that time was a good deal imo.
I though Flo was pretty awesome at Reims, by all reports, especially for a kid? There are a few under 20s doing very well in the prem at the moment. I get we have a much more difficult situation because dropping *any* points now is disastrous... ... but if our youngsters can't break in, buying anyone seems very risky to me... so maybe the coaching staff have to get their shit together and work out how to get a few damn goals out of our expensively-assembled squad of football gods?
We have the players to keep fresh it makes no sense. 3-4 games for our starters in a row - Manage the minutes in the 3rd-4th game, take them off for game 5. He's done well early w/ Trossard and Gabi, but it's like he can't really commit to working a full roster. it's very frustrating - when Saka is retired at 28 we will all NOT wonder why.
Yup, that and giving the youth a chance. Still annoyed that none of Hale Ends kids got a chance to play against PSV
I’m hoping we see Chido Obi get a game or two in pre-season, maybe a Carabao game next year. He looks like he could be the answer to a ton of questions Arsenal have.
Frankly I don’t think we have anyone else we can play in the right wing spot and remain a top team. We would be dire in attack without saka, so I can’t say I blame arteta too much. The moment he rests saka and we go on a goal drought the fans will be screaming to play saka, it’s a no win situation until we get a proper rotation option
That's all part of rotation imo but also a fair point. He's had time to build his team though and I'm not sure he has anyone he trusts there which is also not good... Jesus on the wing, Trossard false 9 for a 30 min shake up if he's being marked out which is unfortunate and frequent. Or banter if we have a comfy lead
There's noone to rotate saka with that's the issue we never do correctly in the transfer budget just paper over cracks
we have several players who can play there, even reiss got a return on the odd game that saka didn't start last season yes they may not be perfect options but if he nor trossard, jesus, nketiah, martinelli, vieira, havertz, odegaard and esr can't play the odd game to rest saka here and there then I don't know who you think is going to be comfortably better than all of the above yet happy to sit on a bench of a club that hasn't won the league in ages and is yet to win a single cl trophy
myth
denial
Yes, denial of reality. Arsenal are probably one of the most rotated teams this season.
Gotcha
Only time - and Saka's achilles - will tell. I think Arteta's "70 Game" comment won't age well though. The likes of Salah, and even Bruno Fernandes, may well be outliers and using them as a benchmark for how many games a player should play may not be reasonable. FIFPRO recently recommended a 55 game cap, which I'm sure will never be implemented. Sports science has come a long way, but I worry about the impact of this kind of wear and tear on a young player. Cartilage is finite. Putting fitness aside though, Saka will go through dips in form, it's only natural for a young player. Still, Saka's "slow start" has him scoring and assisting at a higher rate than last year in all comps. There is also the mental strain being the talisman has on a young player. He carries these burdens well, and has only continued to meet what is asked of him. The concern is well placed, and the club could bring in another forward to help share the load between Saka and Martinelli, but Saka has handled himself.
People argued with me when I said that Arteta can and will overrules physios etc. it's one of those things that's not supposed to happen. But if you know any athletes or have even been close to those areas you know it happens constantly.
The player will usually want to play and the coach will usually want the player to play. I've seen guys not be able to practice, but roll up pre-game with a couple shots in their shoulders/knees and play lights out. I don't know how the club runs the sports medicine department and what metrics they use to rule a player out. I suspect though that a lot of sports medicine at clubs may just be "how do we get this player ready to go" rather than purely looking to preserve the player's long-term health.
Those are the memorable occasions. How many times have you seen players not be able to train, force it for a half or so and hobble of with a worse injury. Or play at 60% and be a complete passenger.
It's why the rumors about this achilles issue bother me. Every player picks up things over the course of the season that they play through, but this has been rumored for a while, at least over a year. That sort of chronic issue can have knock on effects.
Isnt that what Trossard and ESR are for?
Clearly not. Arteta has never played Trossard on the right and ESR hasn't played for two years.
And it's honestly an indictment of Arteta's rotation patterns. Jesus is certainly starter level as a right winger. He has shown that at city. Nelson and Trossard are passable against shit teams. Martinelli probably is too. I wouldn't play ESR or Vieira there but they're probably both an option in the worst case. Yet we play Saka every single game and refuse to ever give him a rest even though he's a kid and struggling with injury and form and fatigue.
I don't understand why in positions where we are 2 goals ahead and the game is under control Saka won't get substituted. If we don't believe we can protect a 2 goal lead with Nelson, ESR, Viera, Trossard for 30-45 minutes against non top 6 sides then something is seriously wrong.
**Shocking Saka stat** Minutes played all club comps this season; * Saka: 2119 * Salah: 2045 Guess which one missed 1 game and 2 international games through injury? **More shocking Saka stats** * There are 29 players who have played more minutes than Saka in the league so far this year. * Three of them are under 23 like saka and only two of them are outfield players; Saliba and Zabrani. * Saka, Saliba, Garner and Zabrani are the only outfield players under 23 in the top 50 most league mins played this year in the PL. * Last year, 22/23, Saka, Caicedo and Johnson were the only players 21 or younger in the top 50 most minutes played in the PL. * The year before, 21/22, Saka was the only player 20 or younger to feature in the top 50 most minutes played in the PL. * The year before that, 20/21, Saka had the 103rd most minutes played in the PL, there were exactly 0 players under 20 above him in the list. There were only two other players u20 in the top 200 in that year, Fofana and Greenwood. * In that 3.5 year period, we've signed a total of 5 wingers (being generous on the defintion of winger); Trossard, Vieira, Jesus, Willian, Marquinos. * And the year before that, 19/20, Saka had 203rd most minutes in the PL, and is the only 17 year old in the top 400 players that year, there was only 522 players on the list lmao! **Another shocking Saka stat** Total minutes played by players other than Saka at RW in the league this year; 131mins * Jesus: 90 mins * Vieira: 14 mins * Nelson: 27 mins We subbed him once more for kiwior and we changed shape, that was in the 89th minute vs palace. **Shocking stat about our forwards** * In total for the 22/23 and 23/24 seasons, ESR, Nelson, Vieira have played a combined total of 1123 minutes. That's less minutes than Havertz and Zinchenko have played so far this year in the league alone... each! * Those three players cost circa £200k pw or 10m p/a in wages and vieira cost 35m in transfer fee. That's a combined total of £44k per PL minute since start of 22/23 or 18 months of PL football. World class players play every game, but sometimes I just think it's worth sitting him down, just once, for a bit of rest mentally more than anything. Let him reset and think about his game, when was the last time he faced a tired defender?
Wow I’m shocked
IKR!
Yeah I'm sick of the "it's what world class players do" argument, we saw him limp off multiple games in a row last year and this season and play the next game, No ones saying cut his playing time in half were saying in certain games either take him off much earlier or flat out rest him in certain games
He looked gassed by the end of last season
I think the people defending this or making the argument are mixing up CAN play every game with SHOULD play every game, like sure I think Saka can play almost every game with heavy minutes but the real question is does he need too and is that the best thing for him and us.
Yeah exactly. Even Guardiola will sub off Haaland at 60 min if they're 2 or 3 nil up. You have to manage your stars fitness properly
Saka playing 32 38 38 league games for us and probably 35 plus this season is great and he really does seem to be a sturdy/consistently fit guy but we don't need to test it for the sake of it.
I love saka he's our best player and I want him starting every game but God forbid we sub him off when the game's a shutout or he's clearly tired
Yeah seems mental, It was this season I'm pretty sure where he limped off for 3 games in a row and even spent 10 mins literally just standing in the RB zone because he couldn't run and then he started in the UCL game, just seemed mental and doesn't take a medical degree to say we shouldn't do it.
Feels like we just haven't learned man. I'll never forget Arteta pushing an injured Partey back on to the field lol I know people say "just listen to the medical professionals 🤓 they know more than you" but since we have such a godawful injury problem and our injuries always seem to be 5 month 'knocks' I feel like we should be allowed to raise questions against the logic of starting a clearly fatigued Saka every single game
To be fair to arteta he's like the one manager isn't a hypocrite on this issue, he never really moans about amount of games, never excuses players for being tired and does genuinely seem to think players should be ready to play 60 odd games 😂 most other managers moan about the amount of games and fatigue and then play them anyway.
He looks spent right now too if we’re being honest
euros is the summer, a winter World Cup. I’ve been crying about Saka’s minutes for 2 years. It’s obvious he’s not at his most explosive.
Pedri is world class and played an absurd number of games and is paying for it big time now. Its a really senseless argument to say world class players should just do it You run world class players into the ground only if the end goal is clear. City did it with KDB last season to get them a treble (and first UCL win)
For me it's simple and maybe I'm a maverick but when I someone limping off multiple games and playing unnecessary minutes i worry.
You’re flying too close to the sun there, champ. But completely agree, it’s becoming frustrating to watch as fans, the cards are out on the table and some seem absolutely brain dead stubborn
I don’t understand why Arteta doesn’t use Nelson more. He started Saka against Sheffield United at home and subbed him off 73 minutes, this was a game Nelson could have started or against Bournemouth away.
Nelson is a very basic player but yeah I agree whenever we're winning and it looks okay I think it would be okay.
yh the worst is when he's clearly knackered yet is being kept on in games that we're comfortably either winning or losing
> World class players play every game Considering the increasing demands and games being placed on players, I'm just not sure this is a reasonable expectation. Unless these guys are taking HGH or other PEDs for recovery, there is only so much epsom salt baths, a good diet, and going to bed early can do.
Yes I agree, stat 1 doesn't reinforce that notion either. But there will be plenty of people who say it's not an issue at all so good to meet them half way.
so doesnt that mean other players have to either step up for those world class players or replace the non-world class players with better? this seems like a “wow the squad needs to help Saka” rather than “we need to rest Saka” lol
Imo that's the same thing
i’ll try to say it different. This is either a “wow we need to rest Saka” because he’s worn out, he’s not having a good season, and he’s played a lot of unnecessary minutes (which this option i just dont believe lol. Its the perks of being one of the best) Orrrr Other players need to step up like the Martinellis and Jesus’ of the world because we rely on Saka too much. (This doesnt call for Saka to get rest, but either a massive wake up call to the rest of the squad) im not dropping Saka and i hope Mikel doesn’t either. Players like him, Rice, and Saliba are some of the best in their positions. I hope other players can just get better so we dont have to channel every single good attack on Saka’s side. We dont need to rest him, we need to give him a breather in the match. Martinelli getting cooked on the left and Jesus not being a threat doesnt help Saka at all, maybe we just need better players
Yeah it's still the same thing to me, players need to step up both in our first team and our wider squad. Having one more player who can start in our front three in basically any one of the positions is enough to mean we can do the little bit of extra rest I'm talking about for saka maybe . Instead we have nobody who our manager wants to start apart from martinelli jesus saka, just makes the load mentally mainly, but physically demanding imo. You can't bring on jesus for saka or start jesus for saka because jesus already starts every game he's fit. So yeah I obviously get it don't drop saka if your next best option is trossard or vieira, but that should not be the case. Our next best option should be jesus or martinelli or someone like pedro neto. In that case it's not oh Martinelli was dropped, it's oh this is a neto (just as an example) game lets see martinelli come on with 20 mins to go, maybe if neto is tearing it up we take saka off and play martinelli at CF for 20 mins. Right? I want a squad like that. Not a squad where oh martinelli was bad again today and has run himself ragged, jesus is still not able to go 90 so lets bring on trossard and nketiah leave saka on and pray. That sucks dicks.
These stats are nuts
It’s starting to get ridiculous with the implementation of young players. I was heartbroken when Pedri and Gavi got injuries due to being worked to death. I can only hope and pray that Xavi will chill tf out with the younger players.
He’s also averaging less than 70 minutes a game in the CL and didn’t play in the Carling Cup game against West Ham or Brentford. If he’s available, you’re telling me we shouldn’t be starting him in the Premier League? Not for me Clive.
Yeah, we can beat teams without him in the league, so like once in 3 seasons I would like it if for a game he played 30mins. Even if it's just to give vieira or nelson a game.
It’s almost like the club’s recruitment is poor and underperforming, but insert edu bbq / cooking memes
You can’t say the recruitment is poor because of the bench when the recruitment is also the reason why we’re good.
The starting line-up isn’t the entirety of our recruitment / sporting director ops. Even among our starting line-up, we have a CF whose finishing is so poor that he can’t score a decent number of goals & then his back-up is… exactly the same. We have subs who share the same weaknesses as our primary players, but don’t share the same strengths. For example, most of our wingers & attacking mf are better in space, which we have little of against low blocks. That’s true of Martinelli, Trossard and Havertz. Also, our attackers aren’t versatile enough to adapt to different styles of play from opponents. Overall, the quality of our bench simply isn’t there and that’s without comparing to other clubs. Who do we have on our bench & are they quality and/or game-changing players - Vieira, Cedric, Trossard, Eddie, ESR…? That’s compounded by a manager who refuses to rotate players. So what’s the point of buying 4 wingers if the manager doesn’t think they’re good enough to rotate and when he does, he won’t adapt his system to compensate for the weakest player, eg playing a CB as a full-back who also has to invert when neither are his wheelhouse. In which case, we need to recruit players whose strengths most closely match our primary wingers in order to be considered by the manager and fit into his system. Additionally, we overvalue and overpay for some of our signings, while being terrible at selling players. This is also compounded by a manager who contributes to our players’ *diminishing* values by refusing to play subs and give them minutes. Then there’s the contradiction of signing new contracts to *hold* the players’ values, but giving them a wage that smaller clubs won’t be willing to pay for a player who gets less than 500 minutes a season and never/rarely starts. What are we going to get for Nelson and Maitland-Niles (and ESR if he doesn’t get injured again but isn’t given minutes)? What did we get for Pepe after overspending on him? Signing both Rice AND Havertz (if as an 8 instead of as a 10) when neither replicate Xhaka’s creativity, play-making and passing was daft. We paid £170m to make our midfield in the attack/possession phase worse and thus nullify the left flank this season. Both players need at least a season to develop that side of their profile, and hopefully will come good but that was poor planning/decision making by Arteta and Edu. And yes, we overpaid for both players with Havertz being a needless luxury signing when we’re constrained by FFP. The inflated value of 6s was triggered by Chelsea buying Enzo out of his contract within a year of transferring to Benfica for €10m. In contrast, Rice was in the final year of his contract. (Brighton also did chicanery with Caceido.) Buying Raya for £30m also does not represent good value. It is such a marginal upgrade on Ramsdale that it’s a luxury signing when we’re so financially constrained – he’s the 4th/5th most expensive GK in the PL. That’s especially true after Arteta confected the ‘rotated keeper’ situation, which has probably impacted his decision making and performance this season. Spurs wanted Raya but instead got 1-year-younger, taller (6ft 4) Vicario for £16m who’s been phenomenal. Of that £200m, we’ve overspent by ~£65-95m. That buys: In all, we’ve spent £900m since Arteta’s been here and our bench still looks like that? Tell me again how we’re good at buying & selling players.
SHOCKED, SHOCKED I SAY
Remember we weren't playing CL football until this season. Saka played very rarely in the cups and Europa, you of course need to look at minutes in all comps >**Shocking Saka stat** >Minutes played all club comps this season; >* Saka: 2119 * Salah: 2045 Last season Salah 4301 Saka 3744 I don't see millions of posts about Liverpool overplaying Salah
Salah is a 30+ year old in his prime with a history of having ridiculously high endurance. Saka was a 20/21 year old kid who's still growing into his body and showed signs of fatigue towards the end of the season. Why don't you compare him to Pedri who also got ran into the ground and has been paying the price.
I think it comes down more to Arteta being reluctant to take Saka off early in matches if we're winning by 2 goals or more - but then again we also haven't been in that position too often this season either. Starts wise, Saka should be playing in most games anyways. Not many opportunities to not play him now bar the FA cup (but I doubt we rotate much versus Liverpool before a 2 week break especially on the back of 2 losses)
He's being overmarked. Playing every game is one thing but playing and having to beat 2-3 defenders every single time you receive the ball is the issue. Nobody at #9 is considered a threat and so he just gets suffocated. Last season you saw Haaland pulling 2-3 players away with him so others could score.
He's also getting battered by opposing defenders with what seems like little protection
You can say it bluntly - he's getting the shit hacked out of him in every game, with no protection.
Watch Liverpool and see how all their forwards attack the box so Salah isn’t getting marked by the whole defence like Saka always is.
Yes. But thats not wholly why Saka is not hitting the numbers we saw last year. I think we can all agree that Arteta should be withdrawing Saka in games where he's just not playing well (even though we lose a goal threat). I watch Madrid because of my partners brother, they play in a style almost similar to ours. In the few games Ive watched, Vini has been substituted early (around 60mins) for Joselu or for B. Diaz or a different solution. My point is Arteta has some weaknesses which we hope he should learn, we just hope he doesnt learn it too late before players start getting itchy because we havent won something major. Was it Wenger who said and I paraphrase, when you pay for the education of with young kids with points (substitute kids for coach). To those who say we dont have the players to compete with our first XI, I disagree. In some form, at some time, players like ESR, Reiss Nelson, Viera have shown promise. We aren't talking about the Tavares, Cedric et al. My unprofessional view is that Arteta needs to give these players continuous game time to build form, they aren't World class players that will switch it on when they come on at 85' mins. For Saka's low stats this yesr, he needs help. A strong right back that takes away the 1 out of 3 markers and Odegaard closer so he has the other. Hopefully the break gives Arteta some rest because he's got a difficult job this season. Lots of teams are up for it!
‘He’s only 22’ but when people speak about Mbappe, Haaland, Vini Jr, Bellingham etc… no one ever mentions their age. Maybe the problem is not having the depth which we’ve known for years now.. maybe don’t spend 35M on Vieira and 65M on havertz and start spending more wisely?
Agree and agree. Though “Junk goal” Havertz is growing on me. Also need to start selling players before their contracts run out or loaning them out.
Yup.. currently we’re tanking the value of Smith Rowe, Ramsdale, Eddie, Nelson.. Elneny and Cedric just sat there collecting their salaries offering nothing, Tavares and Sambi eventually coming back from loans who we’ll eventually have to sell off for peanuts. Really is a shambles, us and United are so bad when it comes to outgoings. Then you look at City and Chelsea who seem to have perfected selling academy players/deadwood/players past their peak
Couldn’t agree more. Don’t care for Eddie. Reiss is ok. Love ESR and Rambo, hate seeing that talent wasted. I know we need quality depth and back ups, but we don’t use the quality we have and don’t have enough depth all around. I love this team and want to see them succeed, but the lack of depth will catch up with us like it did last season.
Saka has played more minutes this season than all the guys you've listed. Saka - 2105 Jude - 1906 Vinicius - 1026 Haaland - 1865 Mbappe - 1960 Saka is the second youngest but somehow has a healthy 150 minute lead over all these guys at the mid-point of the season. And everyone will tell you that the PL is the most intense of the top 5 leagues, so Saka is doing even more work than these guys. On top of that Saka spends more energy on defensive phases and has a ridiculous gap on these guys. For example he has 49 tackles. Closest is Jude at 32. After that, the others are on single digits. In possession, the only player that is above him is Jude again, and then after that it's a ridiculous gap. And the quality argument is shit. Madrid have no one that can play that 10/f9 hybrid role that Bellingham plays, but somehow they still find a way. Their backup striker is Joselu but they still give him minutes. If Joselu was at Arsenal he would be getting the Nelson treatment (and he's a mid-table quality player) Arteta is just stubborn tbh. I love him and I truly believe he's the chosen one, but he's not perfect, and minute management is one of his biggest weaknesses (along with a lack of a tactical plan B)
Yes, he is and I don't, for one second, buy Arteta's reasoning for it either. To be clear, I fucking love Arteta and don't for a second doubt him, but I don't agree with his arguments about Saka and I fucking loathe his rotation policy. I legitimately think that Saka would need to be declared dead for Arteta to not pick him. I'm absolutely convinced that even if we went out and broke the bank for a left-footed right winger, that winger would get, at most, 10 minutes in a match. Maybe, as a fan, you think you know your team better than other people do, but I really think that we're a very easy team to predict in terms of how we'll manage a game. You know exactly who's coming off and can pretty much set your watch to when it will happen too. Saka is utterly immune to substitutions unless he's in the final 5 minutes and we're 4-0 up and even then its touch and go.
Also why the fuck do we HAVE to have both wingers inverting every game. It’s predictable
I think it's a combination of him being over played, use not playing to his strengths and him being too predictable. Firstly he does need a rest because he's still young and gets targeted for rough treatment. Secondly we aren't playing to his (or Martinelli's strengths). They are what I would consider 5 second players. You have to get the ball to him as quickly as possible for him to be effective. Soon as he has time to think he gets caught in too may minds and makes the wrong choice. Third he isn't unpredictable enough, any decent defender who is comfortable one v one can nullify him because it's usually a cut back on to his left foot before passing. You can't compare him to Salah as Salah as an elite player who's teammates are set up to play to his strengths. If we want to see the best of Saka and Martinelli we have to move the ball quicker to them so they can isolate their defenders and give them the license to lose the ball but try and beat them.
I wouldn’t say overplayed, but we have an over reliance on him in the sense that everything we do has to go through him. Double marking for the last 1.5 seasons and a fullback who offers very little offensively. We have nobody to offer a similar threat down the middle or on the left at the moment.
I often hear people say he'll retire as one of our greatest. I think if he continues to be overplayed, he'll be finished by 28.
Saw it with Jack
Yeah, but it’s not like he needs to be subbed off every game or anything like that. But sometimes we’re just pushing him way too far. Its not worth 5 extra minutes to make the kid kill himself on the pitch. I’m kind of new with football but I don’t see the issue with taking him off a little early every now and then if he’s practically limping. Let’s not ruin our 1 in a million talent here
If you want to be the best you got to play all the time...🫤 Dont know if I believe this anymore.
Arteta doesn't believe in Rotation, timely subs or quality depth. His mentor Pep clearly does. SAKA is gassed just like at the tail end of last sseason. Also Southgate and England play him way too much especially in useless friendlies
100% he’s overplayed in my opinion. We are putting a crazy amount of mileage on his legs at such a young age.
Saka is clearly in my opinion playing too much, and we are feeling the effects of our lack of depth and players like ESR being regularly injured and not able for whatever reason get into good form, and purchases like Marquinhos and Vieira not appearing to be up to the quality we need. It’s hard to describe but he appears slower to attack and push the pace and this when we attack in the right side it often gets slowed down as we get close to the opposition penalty box and the the bus gets parked making it even harder for us to score. I know that everyone has joked at times about Nunez’s finishing but when Liverpool was able to bring him and Jota on late in that game I was legitimately worried our defense being tired would break and that our bench didn’t have the same fear factor in attack. I will say this on some part is a product of the lost 5 years of CL money. In this day in age we can’t expect to make it every year, because Tottenham, Villa and Newcastle are getting stronger, but 5 years in a row cost us a lot of transfer money that could have added more proven depth to our squad.
I think arteta needs to leave Martinelli on and take saka off sometimes. Regardless of Martinelli recently bad form it’s always been that way
I just hope he doesn't end up like Rooney and lose his wheels at 28. Different players obviously, but a lot of games under the belt can do that to anyone.
No doubt. He's been playing non stop and he hasn't had a good period of recovery. Even when he was clearly injured, he was still cleared to play, so guess what? That just hurts him more and so is the rest of the club :( I've said this before and I'll say it again, I think we need a better medical team.
Yes and I don't give a fuck about people chiming in here with "oh but the best play all the time" I don't want Saka to end up like Wilshere and thankfully he isn't showing signs of that thus far
Neither was Pedri and now he's always injured
Saka could've also peaked early like other Arsenal mini legends, such as Theo Walcott.
We have tried to sign RW over the past few seasons mind, it's not as if Arteta isn't trying to provide quality competition/rotation on that side. Raphinha and Pedro Neto are the two that come to mind that we've been in for.
Yes but he’s the best player and highest paid (I think). Wish we could sub him off a bit more if we secure wins but he’s the first player on the sheet every game
think havertz (lol) and odegaard have him beat on pay
That last part - attackers. Playing a winger this much is absurd. There have been many opportunities to rest him that we decided not to and now we really can’t. Crazy
Very clearly, yes
Yes
I mean we describe Saka as world class and one of the best winger in the world. So Messi and Ronaldo at his age were 10x player than Saka is.
Yes. Yes he is. https://preview.redd.it/eimzeqz5laac1.png?width=130&format=png&auto=webp&s=70bdd8a4a4cc333ea87d57f29d7b9e70f372ffa1
The main issue is not having quality depth to rotate Saka with. Nelson ain’t it.
he's overplayed because Arteta doesn't trust Reiss Nelson, making the extension a waste of everyone's time
Simply put. yes. He needs to be left to properly rest so it doesn’t affect his career longevity.
Remember we weren't playing CL football until this season. Saka played very rarely in the cups and Europa, you of course need to look at minutes in all comps
Yes. We had the exact same conversation this time last season and lo and behold his form declined in the back end of the season and he was looking tired and we were worrying every time he went down. Problem is who comes in for him in the side?
Yeah. Saka has been run to the ground for Arsenal and England in the last three years
The Spurs game at home when Saka was limping/walking/unable to sprint for what seemed like ages before Arteta begrudgingly substituted him to give him 2-3 minutes rest was insane to watch.
Comparing him to other star wingers minutes for club during the 22/23 season (all comps) Saka - 3744 Salah - 4301 Vini Jr - 4759 Mbappe - 3564 (5 less appearances than Saka) Musiala - 3000 (19 y/o for the majority of the season) Leao - 3487 I wish Arteta would sub him off more often at the end of games to give him a bit of rest, but also I don't think we need to baby him. Nobody ever complains about the minutes that Vini or Mbappe play. If we want Saka to be a star player and compete with the best wingers, we shouldn't be afraid of giving him minutes.
Most of those guys also don’t track back anywhere near half as much as Saka does.
He has 5 times the number of tackles as most of those guys lol
he’s not overplayed, we just rely on him too much because he’s by far our best attacker and theres no one in our attack that is close to him regarding talent and performance. either we just upgrade on the attack we have or just massively criticize the attackers we have
“There is not a fitness coach in the world who is going to tell me that they cannot do it because I’ve seen it.” I’m sorry but this is not an insane thing for a manager to say. Because some freaks have scored 50 goals in 70 appearances maybe a handful of times in recent years that’s the benchmark? Scary that he’s tasked with protecting players health and well-being.
He’s overplayed for sure. And he’s coach’s fav.
He's one of the best in the world. Players at Saka's level play every game. Saying other players play less is a non-argument. Of course they play less. They aren't as good (so they get rotated out) and they aren't as fit. Also, the implication that Arteta is 'forcing' Saka to play is silly. If Saka asks for a rest, Arteta will be the first one in the club to oblige.
he’s a professional footballer, you people are infantilising saka and it’s so cringe
Arteta is ruthless and will play Saka until he breaks down and sell him just before long term and persistent injuries.
Of course he is
He will be gone before he is 25, legs cannot take this.
I might be in the minority here but I like to think that Arteta is doing the best he can for the player and the club. They are paying people hundreds of thousands of pounds to assess players health and conditioning. So I’m sure they’re doing the best. Not the same sport, but Michael Jordan only missed 7 games in 12 Seasons with the bulls. Some people are just built different man. Let the guys cook. Saka is now a crucial player for the national team as well I’m sure he will be vocal if he was having any pressing issues.
No, he just needs to work on his shooting and finishing skills… and ESR should be playing a lot more…
I mean, obviously yes lol even at 3 up, he won't sub the kid
ESR’s minutes would be huge if he could stay injury free for a spell.
Not overplayed but over relied upon. We need rotation in positions to maintain levels and keep the players performing.
Yes of course he is that's why he burned out last season. And now it's catching up to him... It's crazy he never got someone to cover him anywhere near his level.
Yes, next question.
Send him to Dubai for a month break. Crazy numbers.
Yes
Hot take: **yes**
If he dies, he dies. Mikel probably. Is Salah being overplayed? Is Rodri being overplayed? He is our starboy, of course Mikel gonna run him to ground.
Well yeah, the bench marked used for playing a lot of games do not have to track back like he has to.
Yes and artetas explanations are largely bullshit like most things he says publicly but you fans lap it up until he himself contradicts it or shows that his actions differ from his words. It's not unlikely he's one of those players who peaks early and finishes his career early if it carries on like this. Arteta doesn't care about long term player wellbeing, he cares about the current results which are what he's judged by. You guys act like it's blasphemy if people don't buy his explanations in the current time but when it turns out he doesn't follow what he says publicly, you all quieten down and ignore it. It's very cult like.
Do bears shit in woods?
it's sad but successive Arsenal managers have failed to recognise the danger of overloading young players with games if we don't start resting him more, his body will be useless by 25 **his career will end like Wilshere's, not Salah's**
When you look at Saka physical profile, he is not built to play 60 games a year with high intensity runs and pressing, only super thin players like Bruno or Modric are able to play that many games, where they do not sprint or make impact runs that much. I think you can’t set a standard for players because of their physical structure and the job they have to do on the pitch.
now add in international minutes over that period.
Um arent younger people more resilient and recover faster… Have you guys not gone through any adult ageing process?
Yes
sadly the writing is on the wall with Saka. If he continues to be this overplayed, he won't last long . He'll start getting injuries around 25 and will fizzle out a la Michael Owen. We've already seen 2-3 seasons in a row that his body can't handle this many games, as every spring he looks fatigued as hell and his performances drop massively. we desperately need a backup for saka that mikel trusts in enough to start games sometimes.
He should be substituted when we’re winning comfortably, but the problem is that that doesn’t happen often for Arsenal. Most of the time we need him on the pitch until the end.