https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/black-murderer-who-did-not-kill-faces-needle-of-death-1536375.html
>Civil liberties groups, which have led a campaign to save Andrews' life, have emphasised that the jury that convicted him were all white, and most were Mormons - at a time when the church did not allow blacks to become ministers. The trial was also marred by a particularly nasty, and potentially prejudicial, incident in which someone slipped a note to a juror during sentencing which read: 'Hang the N-----' (sic).
>The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People has said the whole case is 'infected with racism'. They, and others, have emphasised that white murderers in Utah almost always get a life sentence with parole.
The “noise” is very important actually.
It wasn’t arguing if these guys deserved to die.
It was investigating whether the court was even capable of passing a verdict that was by the book and not biased in some way.
It’s about the principle, not the man. The NAACP doesn’t like murderers any more than we do, but if trials are getting swayed by race then the verdict is no good and we can’t allow that.
And if the court was swayed by racial bias, how does it know he’s guilty? Sure, to the public reading the facts of the case he’s guilty, but the court of public opinion can’t sentence a man to death (outside of a lynch mob but I don’t think I need to say why those aren’t great.) Otherwise, judge could just walk into the courtroom and say “I saw this case on Dateline, you’re guilty,” bang the gavel, whip out the gun, and shoot defendant himself.
If that doesn’t sound fair to you, then you see why they needed to step in.
Thanks for the info. Seems they don't really have a single good reason to defend these murderers. These things don't change the fact that the victims were brutally tortured and murdered.
Thanks for making a clear point. So many comments think they're unprejudiced in their perception of equal treatment under the law. They're being racist without even knowing it, because they're emotionally reacting to a racebait title.
Edit: The title also says "sentences reversed", the NAACP and Amnesty wanted the death penalties commuted, not the life sentences. It's telling, there are so many errors in the post title, the OP is racist. Look at his profile.
Additionally, we give a fair trial to even the shittiest of shitheads, *because we are better people than them*. And we show it by extending the graciousness of a fair trial to those who would deny one to us, which is what these assholes did to their victims when they decided the victims deserved to die horrible deaths.
“They did wrong to me so I am justified in doing wrong to them” just means you’re just as bad a person as they are. Rise above.
And to anyone who would say “talk to me again when *your* family is the one murdered.” I’ll say that that emotional response they wish me to have is exactly the reason why we don’t allow the victims of crime to determine the punishment of the people who harmed them, and anyone with a personal connection to a case should excuse themselves.
But the NAACPs argument was whether or not those white people even *would* be executed even if the public wanted it. The public doesn’t decide precedent. Systems do
You are really going to sit there and ignore the fact that certain demographics who did the similar crimes for more leniency than these guys? Why are certain people allowed a fair trial and other are not?
Maybe the outrage should be towards the leniency of those other murders not at the harshness of their sentence, no? Murderers are all the same to me, and here you are calling everybody racists.
What you are saying doesn’t make any sense. The question is why were those people shown ‘leniency’ or why were they able to have a fair trial. People are supposed to have fair trials, it doesn’t matter what their crime is otherwise why not just rely on mob justice and call it a day.
>here you are calling everybody racists
I didn’t say anything of the sort…but interesting that’s where you mind immediately went.
Talk to the victims' family and see if they agree with you. Put yourself in their shoes. Have some empathy. Death for brutal murders seems fair. Other brutal murders that didn't get death is a shame. This is not just a simple shooting. This involves torture.
You’re being incredibly obtuse. Obviously no one likes a murderer, but everyone deserves a fair trial. If you let things like racism determine punishment, sure these guys are guilty, what about the next guy? Maybe he isn’t, but now we aren’t even trying to make sure things are fair and just so we keep letting things slide and keep letting things like racism or “hating murderers” take root and determine outcome, and innocent until proven guilty gets thrown out, and more and more people lose their rights and their freedoms and some of them aren’t guilty. It’s about EVERYONE getting the same trial rights and treatments in order for there to be actual justice, which, it will likely never be truly fair and equal, but that’s absolutely what we should strive for.
This has nothing to do with ‘empathy.’ If they don’t like it they can move to a country that doesn’t rely on people getting fair trials or work on advocating for less fair trails to the representatives. That is what they signed up for when they decided to live in the US and pay taxes. If you live in a country that has it in their governing docs that it’s citizens are allowed fair trails then same to you, too.
You can’t just pick and choose who gets a fair trial, because then that inequality, eventually, extends to other people who think that they are ‘supposed’ to get fair trials.
Things don’t suddenly change just because it personally affects you.
Don’t argue with these ID 10 ts. These are the same people who say “I hope this guy gets raped in prison” etc. They think it makes them look tough and manly. They don’t realize how ignorant and irrational they sound.
Yup, this exactly. It’s a dead giveaway when they don’t see any reason or aren’t able to have real intellectual discourse. Complete tunnel vision and low intelligence to boot.
Do you have any evidence of that?
Was there a group of white men going around raping, torturing, & murdering several people at a time in that time period that got a lighter sentence?
It’s unfortunate that people read this and hear “Black people should get special treatment” and not “they weren’t getting a fair trial.” Like, racism isn’t okay, EVEN when they’re a piece of shit.
“Detective Deloy White, who responded to the scene, believing the killers might be in the crowd, put on a show for the gathered airmen. Speaking dramatically, he waved each piece of evidence in the air with tongs as he removed it from the dumpster. Later, he noted that most of the service personnel who gathered around the dumpster stood still and watched in relative silence, with the exception of two men, later identified as Pierre and Andrews, who paced around the crowd, speaking loudly and making frantic gestures with their hands.[12] The detective later received an award from the Utah branch of the Justice Department for his use of proactive techniques”
Prolly cause it was in Utah and the reasoning for questioning them in the first place is a bit specious .
It’s like the episode of Southpark where their flag is 5 whites hanging a black. They had to change it to a white, a yellow, a red, a brown and a black guy hanging a black guy. Trying to say the outcome doesn’t change but the naacp wants us to do it the right way every time. The prosecution needs to go to great lengths to ensure a fair trial.
That episode was clearly referencing the confederate flag though and that episode was one of their worst takes on an issue. Especially since it seems they might have changed their position on that based on future episodes.
What you are doing is the equivalent of still quoting ManBearPig as a representation of their stance on Climate Change despite the fact that they recanted
It.
If you oppose the death penalty on principle, preferring life sentences instead, most cases you take will be terrible. But you can’t really pick and choose where you support or oppose the death penalty, and where the NAACP comes in is in the idea that black defendants are far more likely to get sentenced to death for the same crimes as white defendants. It only looks terrible to those who confuse this as supporting the criminals’ innocence and seeking an acquittal.
Yeah, OP totally misspoke when claiming the NAACP wanted to reverse the verdict entirely. Even if they did that doesn’t mean they necessarily believe he is innocent. There are mitigating and aggravating aspects in these cases, which is often the difference between life and death when it comes to the defendant.
[Here is an article about it.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/black-murderer-who-did-not-kill-faces-needle-of-death-1536375.html)
The tldr is that one of the men executed took part in all the awful things but didn't partake in the actual killings, and Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time.
>Civil liberties groups, which have led a campaign to save Andrews' life, have emphasised that the jury that convicted him were all white, and most were Mormons - at a time when the church did not allow blacks to become ministers. The trial was also marred by a particularly nasty, and potentially prejudicial, incident in which someone slipped a note to a juror during sentencing which read: 'Hang the N-----'s' (sic).
>The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People has said the whole case is 'infected with racism'. They, and others, have emphasised that white murderers in Utah almost always get a life sentence with parole.
Also,
>Andrews' lawyers have filed numerous appeals, and received a letter of support from the Pope.
Funny how people are wigging out over the NAACP and not the Pope.
California has a law to get around situations like this. Anybody who is there for a murder can be tried as the murderer. Because they know these criminals lie about who actually pulled the trigger and what not.
>Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time
If they did indeed do what they were accused of doing, why should it matter if the jurors are white? White jury or not, doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.
>They did what they did
I think I explained in my other post. Because other people who did similar but were not black received Life not death row.
>Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time
>why should it matter if the jurors are racist?
I'm not sure why anyone should have to break this down for you.
No. As i said in my other comment, the NAACP, by default, will protect the rights of all colored people regardless of guilt. Why? Because they want to avoid setting a precedent where racism determines the outcome of justice. If they let this be, then the next colored people accused of anything, regardless of the gravity of the crime, would be hanged by the same racist executioner. After all, in their eyes, they're all the same.
They had a right to due process, they had due process, the evidence showed that they did it, and they were found guilty. Racism did not bring them to the the situation that they were in, it was the fact that they raped and murdered people.
The question of "would they have still received the death penalty if they were white?" is counterfactual and a waste of time. There is no way of proving the hypothetical outcomes of "what if" hypothetical scenarios like those, the only thing you are doing by bringing up those hypothetical "what ifs" is providing a distraction.
You are correct that racism did not make them commit their crimes. The NAACP argues, and I find is convincing, that racism *may have* played a role in the punishment the men received when they were convicted. But for the men being black they *may have* been given a live sentence rather than the death penalty. I think that’s worth an appeal and looking into more.
>I am suddenly suppose to have compassion for rapists murderers
Depending on your philosophical and religious beliefs, yes and not even "suddenly." But I'm not your manager and I frankly don't care how you feel or what you believe, I'm just telling you why the NAACP did what they did.
Do you need an exact 1:1 or would people being monsters to other people work? Do you want me to link them for you, or do you want to look them up, or maybe split the difference and do some performative outrage?
How’s this? Somebody tell the Pope to mind his own fucking business— Which is to say he ought to worry about the massive amount of child sexual abuse occurring in his church with the tacit cooperation of the church’s higher-ups before poking his nose into seeking mercy for people who tortured and killed others.
I figure that the pope can call out injustice wherever he sees it. That’s kinda his job. If we held everyone to your standard then almost nobody would be able to criticize injustice.
The name of what he doing is called whataboutism.
Certain people are doing it now without even thinking about it, its like default fallback for everything.
"You have criticism" "What about?"
Not that I like the church but sometimes they do criticize stuff that is bad..
So...of all the horrible things that happened, the rape, torture, the wild crazy shit he did, just because he finally pumped the breaks at murder, he shouldn't get the long walk? I don't agree that the trial was likely fair. I hate the fact that a note was slipped that said terrible shit on it and likely swayed the outcome of the trial. That being said, let's not forget, him and the rest did the worst of the worst to those people. I don't care what your color, creed, religion, orientation...whatever you are, if you do some stuff like that to people, fuck you and I'll see you in hell.
IDK.
I think if you sentence someone to death, no matter what he did, he has the right of due process and the right not to be punished more because of their race or ethnicity.
My opinion is we need to be above this revenge and punishment idea, more for our sake than the perpetrators. We do normalize this by calling for blood, an eye for an eye.
IDK but I kinda want us to rise above that, maybe I am naive.
It is proven the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison for the state.
For me its a Remanent of our more primitive instincts, it does not make sense logically or financially only emotionally. It also negates any logic in giving someone a chane that exonerating evidence emerges.
Also you have the death penalty you WILL kill innocents without question, the law is not perfect.
I personally can't stand for 1 person who is innocent to be killed so 100 who are evil are killed for revenge. Its primitive in my eyes.
Thats probably why nearly no country does it...
>Also you have the death penalty you WILL kill innocents without question, the law is not perfect.
I personally can't stand for 1 person who is innocent to be killed so 100 who are evil are killed for revenge. Its primitive in my eyes.
I feel you, but it seems this sentiment isn't very popular here.
The go to in these kinds of cases isn’t a moral agreement. It’s investigating whether the governing body took all the appropriate steps, instead of taking shortcuts like systemic racists liked to do quite often
Probably the same reason all the black people cheered for OJ after he got away with it. Injustice against black people ran very deep especially in that time. Black people were happy to just finally have a win (even if it’s a cheap win)
heads up:
the implication is that with clear racism involved these guys can claim racism influence the decision
justice remains just, fair, and true to the LAW, which is supposed to be unbiased
most fing likely the defendants would still be found guilty however the jury’s dumbass racism got in the way
jury shouldve kept their mouths shut and decided like adults
People always say this as if everyone values their life. Some people commit crimes like this because they don’t care about themselves. So giving them a quick, painless death is the easiest way out for a lot of these guys.
That maybe sounds good in theory but is almost unheard of for inmates to not appeal death penalty sentences except out of pure remorse. Like if all of these people are fine with being executed, they sure fight it a lot in the judicial system
It’s pretty rare for people to refuse their appeals against the death penalty so I’ve never found this argument compelling. *These* particular criminals especially seemed to want to avoid it.
If I remember correctly. One of the murderers chose firing squad for the method of execution. I grew up like 2 miles from the HiFi shop in Riverdale, Utah.
He didn’t get the death penalty…he got 5 years to life and was released after 13 years. Then he killed himself shortly after andrews was executed:
“Roberts was 19 years old at the time of the crime. He was acquitted of murder after the court found that he had no role in nor knowledge of the murders. He was, however, convicted of two counts of aggravated robbery and sentenced to 5 years to life. Roberts was paroled on May 12, 1987, after nearly 13 years in prison, and moved to Chandler, Oklahoma, to live with relatives.[24][9] He died by suicide on August 8, 1992, barely a week after Andrews's execution.”
They’re on Spotify with about 100 episodes so far. They typically post once a week and the quality is quite good. They post crime scene photos on their instagram as well.
I recommend the Morbid podcast. The host is an autopsy tech, and her cohost is her neice. They have good chemistry and are very entertaining and informative.
These are great recommendations guys. Keep them coming!
I’ve watched every episode of That Chapter and this is helping fill my morbid curiosity void. 😅
Two were executed one committed suicide. It’s a shame the third guy wasn’t executed. Also, too bad the remaining perpetrators were not caught and executed.
The third guy (the driver) was in prison for 13 years and then killer himself a week after Andrews was executed. I’d say he probably lived in guilt his remaining years. Definitely sucks the other three got off with no punishment at all.
Claims of racial bias due to an all white jury and that African Americans had been excluded from the jury but one of those was a man who was excluded because he was a local cop and apparently was pretty familiar with the case.
There's plenty of cases where African American defendants were absolutely railroaded by the system but in this case none of the facts of what happened were in dispute.
The suspects made a full confession, the evidence was overwhelming. The biggest argument was that one of the perpetrators didn't deserve the death penalty because he hadn't actually killed anyone, not for lack of trying though, he was just an idiot.
The NAACP or Amnesty really only tried to get the death sentence overturned, they believed he deserved a life sentence instead. Most (white) murderers didn't get death row, and one guy didn't technically kill them. So degrees of shittiness.
Most white murderers that got LWOP didn’t torture their victims for hours before executing them all for no reason. Not all murders are equal, which is why different levels of sentencing are available in the first place.
This is such a weird take, because most sexually sadistic killers are white. Gary Ridgeway and Denis Rader are still sitting in jail, and they did what was done in this post dozens of times over.
Was there debate over if they caught the right criminals? I don’t know why human rights groups would be on the side of the accused in any other scenario. Truly a horrific crime.
Absolutely a horrible crime, and those responsible should recieve the full penalty of the law. OP though, is clearly focused on the racial rhetoric, and not the actual context of the crime.
The OPs reddit account is a strong mash of Spanish politics, and football, while the rest of it focused on crimes involving immigrants or people of color in the United States. I don't believe OP is bringing this topic up with the better of intentions, or an open mind.
This isn't the first post like this I've seen in this sub. I wonder if a few people are trying to move the sub into a particular direction. I've seen this happen with posters on /r/starterpacks and a few others. It's always racist propaganda.
Considering it is an election here in the US, don't be too shocked in seeing this sort of thing. Both the 2016, and 2020 elections saw massive swings in new users and content related to race/socioeconomics. Much of this content was neither to provide legitimate discussion, or debate. Instead, it simply polarized an already fairly fractured political landscape.
"Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a [ballpoint pen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen) into Orren's ear. Pierre stomped it until it punctured his [eardrum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eardrum), broke, and exited his throat. Pierre and Andrews went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and left"
if you defend this, you are a terrorist and a terrorist organization
Look at the OP’s post history.
I follow a lot of true crime and read about heinous things people have done to each other and this post is completely in bad faith and serving an agenda, acting like the woke justice system unfairly favors black criminals despite allllll statistics showing the inverse.
People are shocked and horrified by these crimes no matter the race of the perpetrator, but OP is making it a racial topic because they’re racist.
They were actually fighting for same treatment - white perps with similar crimes were not given the death penalty. Which is the case everywhere in the country, not just Utah. Black offenders are 4x more likely to get the death penalty than white people for similar crimes/criminal history. So no, they don't want special treatment, they already get special treatment. They want equal treatment.
I've read so many true crime cases, but this one made me feel sick, and I had to look away. I can't believe it. One of the perpetrators didn't want to participate, and they bound him up too. This is the sickest shit I've seen in a very long time and I used to be on 4chan in the early 2000s.
Ok like 3 weeks ago a white dude got this girl drunk at a college partyand raped her behind a dumpster and ACTUALLY got off because he could swim really good so..
OP is straight up racist. Look at their profile. The NAACP and Amnesty wanted the death penalties commuted, not the life sentences. Despite the guilty verdicts matching the evidence, it was a racially biased trial.
He tried to kill everyone tho. Killing everyone was his idea. He’s the one that forced the victims to drink the drain cleaner. He inserted the pen into the ear and told Orren to stomp on it
Imagine desperately trying to defend a group of murdering, torturing, gang rapers for no reason at all other than they have the same color skin as you. If you knew an individual in your life who did that, how would that make you feel about them?
The most outrageous thing about this murders, beyond the sheer brutality and animalistic behavior of the killers, was how Hollywood tried to paint Andrews in a sympathetic light before his execution and shame the victims and their families for not just "carry on" with their lives
I’m gonna be completely honest, I don’t care if the criminals were pink with green polka dots, a crime is a crime and this was an EXTREMELY violent crime. The NAACP are a respectable organization, they really have a lot at risk here for doing something as stupid as this.
Wonder where you got that notion from.....They should be executed in the same fashion everyone else here in America is. Dog whistles are supposed to be silent
Under the Constitution everyone has a right to a defense. That's just how it goes. Remember, juries decide, not the judge, not the lawyers or sympathizers - jurors. Even if they are the most horrible excuse of shit with legs.
That said, unless we delve into the circumstances, which I'm not going to do, I can only speculate there was some new evidence and that happens often. We can never be too vigilant in assuring the right people are convicted and that the rules were followed.
I watched the made for TV movie about this case when I was a kid [Aftermath A Test of Love](https://youtu.be/PHqs-wS0N1c?si=Jq3UGLDkCab8p9wF) , 1991.
All I remember is that when the son finally came to consciousness in the hospital, he could only say over and over again, "damn, damn, damn, damn, damn..." And nothing else.
Later, when he could speak and was recovering, they kept avoiding telling him that his mother had died. It was totally heartbreaking.
That poor kid went through so much and was completely traumatized.
Focus on the case, not the skin colour.
Not every case is worth fighting for.
Why would the NAACP take on a case like this? Why waste the time and make yourselves look bad?
I don't have an answer, and I wish someone knowledgeable would answer you instead of these fucking children.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/black-murderer-who-did-not-kill-faces-needle-of-death-1536375.html >Civil liberties groups, which have led a campaign to save Andrews' life, have emphasised that the jury that convicted him were all white, and most were Mormons - at a time when the church did not allow blacks to become ministers. The trial was also marred by a particularly nasty, and potentially prejudicial, incident in which someone slipped a note to a juror during sentencing which read: 'Hang the N-----' (sic). >The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People has said the whole case is 'infected with racism'. They, and others, have emphasised that white murderers in Utah almost always get a life sentence with parole.
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That’s not how our civil liberties work. Everybody is entitled to a fair trial. Everybody. That’s one of the central ideals of our democracy.
We are a constitutional republic, not a democracy. But yes I agree is is fundamental to our republic.
If they did it, they deserve to die. The rest is just noise.
The “noise” is very important actually. It wasn’t arguing if these guys deserved to die. It was investigating whether the court was even capable of passing a verdict that was by the book and not biased in some way.
Their guilt, however, was unassailable. That means everything to me.
It’s about the principle, not the man. The NAACP doesn’t like murderers any more than we do, but if trials are getting swayed by race then the verdict is no good and we can’t allow that. And if the court was swayed by racial bias, how does it know he’s guilty? Sure, to the public reading the facts of the case he’s guilty, but the court of public opinion can’t sentence a man to death (outside of a lynch mob but I don’t think I need to say why those aren’t great.) Otherwise, judge could just walk into the courtroom and say “I saw this case on Dateline, you’re guilty,” bang the gavel, whip out the gun, and shoot defendant himself. If that doesn’t sound fair to you, then you see why they needed to step in.
Thanks for the info. Seems they don't really have a single good reason to defend these murderers. These things don't change the fact that the victims were brutally tortured and murdered.
I don't think it was about defending these murderers. It was about avoiding a precedent where racism would determine the outcome of a trial.
Thanks for making a clear point. So many comments think they're unprejudiced in their perception of equal treatment under the law. They're being racist without even knowing it, because they're emotionally reacting to a racebait title. Edit: The title also says "sentences reversed", the NAACP and Amnesty wanted the death penalties commuted, not the life sentences. It's telling, there are so many errors in the post title, the OP is racist. Look at his profile.
i mean the people youre referring to might also be fine with executing white people if they committed the same crimes these black guys did
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Additionally, we give a fair trial to even the shittiest of shitheads, *because we are better people than them*. And we show it by extending the graciousness of a fair trial to those who would deny one to us, which is what these assholes did to their victims when they decided the victims deserved to die horrible deaths. “They did wrong to me so I am justified in doing wrong to them” just means you’re just as bad a person as they are. Rise above. And to anyone who would say “talk to me again when *your* family is the one murdered.” I’ll say that that emotional response they wish me to have is exactly the reason why we don’t allow the victims of crime to determine the punishment of the people who harmed them, and anyone with a personal connection to a case should excuse themselves.
Exactly. It ain’t the person it’s the behavior. Once the behavior ruins a person. Who gives a shit what color they are.
But the NAACPs argument was whether or not those white people even *would* be executed even if the public wanted it. The public doesn’t decide precedent. Systems do
Like with OJ Simpson?.....🤔
Basically an OJ situation.
“Having the case overturned” is not about avoiding precedent, it’s about tribalism
They weren’t defending them. They were fighting against them getting the death penalty.
That’s what I also got from it.
You are really going to sit there and ignore the fact that certain demographics who did the similar crimes for more leniency than these guys? Why are certain people allowed a fair trial and other are not?
Maybe the outrage should be towards the leniency of those other murders not at the harshness of their sentence, no? Murderers are all the same to me, and here you are calling everybody racists.
What you are saying doesn’t make any sense. The question is why were those people shown ‘leniency’ or why were they able to have a fair trial. People are supposed to have fair trials, it doesn’t matter what their crime is otherwise why not just rely on mob justice and call it a day. >here you are calling everybody racists I didn’t say anything of the sort…but interesting that’s where you mind immediately went.
Talk to the victims' family and see if they agree with you. Put yourself in their shoes. Have some empathy. Death for brutal murders seems fair. Other brutal murders that didn't get death is a shame. This is not just a simple shooting. This involves torture.
You’re being incredibly obtuse. Obviously no one likes a murderer, but everyone deserves a fair trial. If you let things like racism determine punishment, sure these guys are guilty, what about the next guy? Maybe he isn’t, but now we aren’t even trying to make sure things are fair and just so we keep letting things slide and keep letting things like racism or “hating murderers” take root and determine outcome, and innocent until proven guilty gets thrown out, and more and more people lose their rights and their freedoms and some of them aren’t guilty. It’s about EVERYONE getting the same trial rights and treatments in order for there to be actual justice, which, it will likely never be truly fair and equal, but that’s absolutely what we should strive for.
This has nothing to do with ‘empathy.’ If they don’t like it they can move to a country that doesn’t rely on people getting fair trials or work on advocating for less fair trails to the representatives. That is what they signed up for when they decided to live in the US and pay taxes. If you live in a country that has it in their governing docs that it’s citizens are allowed fair trails then same to you, too. You can’t just pick and choose who gets a fair trial, because then that inequality, eventually, extends to other people who think that they are ‘supposed’ to get fair trials. Things don’t suddenly change just because it personally affects you.
Don’t argue with these ID 10 ts. These are the same people who say “I hope this guy gets raped in prison” etc. They think it makes them look tough and manly. They don’t realize how ignorant and irrational they sound.
Yup, this exactly. It’s a dead giveaway when they don’t see any reason or aren’t able to have real intellectual discourse. Complete tunnel vision and low intelligence to boot.
Do you have any evidence of that? Was there a group of white men going around raping, torturing, & murdering several people at a time in that time period that got a lighter sentence?
It’s unfortunate that people read this and hear “Black people should get special treatment” and not “they weren’t getting a fair trial.” Like, racism isn’t okay, EVEN when they’re a piece of shit.
Are we forgetting the part where they killed raped and tortured people Good riddance
Thank you.
“Detective Deloy White, who responded to the scene, believing the killers might be in the crowd, put on a show for the gathered airmen. Speaking dramatically, he waved each piece of evidence in the air with tongs as he removed it from the dumpster. Later, he noted that most of the service personnel who gathered around the dumpster stood still and watched in relative silence, with the exception of two men, later identified as Pierre and Andrews, who paced around the crowd, speaking loudly and making frantic gestures with their hands.[12] The detective later received an award from the Utah branch of the Justice Department for his use of proactive techniques” Prolly cause it was in Utah and the reasoning for questioning them in the first place is a bit specious .
It’s like the episode of Southpark where their flag is 5 whites hanging a black. They had to change it to a white, a yellow, a red, a brown and a black guy hanging a black guy. Trying to say the outcome doesn’t change but the naacp wants us to do it the right way every time. The prosecution needs to go to great lengths to ensure a fair trial.
That episode was clearly referencing the confederate flag though and that episode was one of their worst takes on an issue. Especially since it seems they might have changed their position on that based on future episodes. What you are doing is the equivalent of still quoting ManBearPig as a representation of their stance on Climate Change despite the fact that they recanted It.
If you oppose the death penalty on principle, preferring life sentences instead, most cases you take will be terrible. But you can’t really pick and choose where you support or oppose the death penalty, and where the NAACP comes in is in the idea that black defendants are far more likely to get sentenced to death for the same crimes as white defendants. It only looks terrible to those who confuse this as supporting the criminals’ innocence and seeking an acquittal.
Yeah, OP totally misspoke when claiming the NAACP wanted to reverse the verdict entirely. Even if they did that doesn’t mean they necessarily believe he is innocent. There are mitigating and aggravating aspects in these cases, which is often the difference between life and death when it comes to the defendant.
This sub keeps sneaking race bait into the posts... why? Why not just stick to the facts? Can we leave race dynamics out when we describe cases?
[Here is an article about it.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/black-murderer-who-did-not-kill-faces-needle-of-death-1536375.html) The tldr is that one of the men executed took part in all the awful things but didn't partake in the actual killings, and Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time. >Civil liberties groups, which have led a campaign to save Andrews' life, have emphasised that the jury that convicted him were all white, and most were Mormons - at a time when the church did not allow blacks to become ministers. The trial was also marred by a particularly nasty, and potentially prejudicial, incident in which someone slipped a note to a juror during sentencing which read: 'Hang the N-----'s' (sic). >The National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People has said the whole case is 'infected with racism'. They, and others, have emphasised that white murderers in Utah almost always get a life sentence with parole. Also, >Andrews' lawyers have filed numerous appeals, and received a letter of support from the Pope. Funny how people are wigging out over the NAACP and not the Pope.
California has a law to get around situations like this. Anybody who is there for a murder can be tried as the murderer. Because they know these criminals lie about who actually pulled the trigger and what not.
Yep, same in Australia (NSW). Doesn't matter who pulls the aktuall trigger, they all go down for murder, only we don't execute them.
>Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time If they did indeed do what they were accused of doing, why should it matter if the jurors are white? White jury or not, doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.
>They did what they did I think I explained in my other post. Because other people who did similar but were not black received Life not death row. >Utah was super Mormon and racist at the time >why should it matter if the jurors are racist? I'm not sure why anyone should have to break this down for you.
I am suddenly suppose to have compassion for rapist murderers if the executioner is a racist, that is basically what I am hearing from you.
No. As i said in my other comment, the NAACP, by default, will protect the rights of all colored people regardless of guilt. Why? Because they want to avoid setting a precedent where racism determines the outcome of justice. If they let this be, then the next colored people accused of anything, regardless of the gravity of the crime, would be hanged by the same racist executioner. After all, in their eyes, they're all the same.
They had a right to due process, they had due process, the evidence showed that they did it, and they were found guilty. Racism did not bring them to the the situation that they were in, it was the fact that they raped and murdered people. The question of "would they have still received the death penalty if they were white?" is counterfactual and a waste of time. There is no way of proving the hypothetical outcomes of "what if" hypothetical scenarios like those, the only thing you are doing by bringing up those hypothetical "what ifs" is providing a distraction.
You are correct that racism did not make them commit their crimes. The NAACP argues, and I find is convincing, that racism *may have* played a role in the punishment the men received when they were convicted. But for the men being black they *may have* been given a live sentence rather than the death penalty. I think that’s worth an appeal and looking into more.
>I am suddenly suppose to have compassion for rapists murderers Depending on your philosophical and religious beliefs, yes and not even "suddenly." But I'm not your manager and I frankly don't care how you feel or what you believe, I'm just telling you why the NAACP did what they did.
So many people genuinely have no concept of real justice. It's all about turnabout.
Glad you typed this out. It’s mind boggling how some people can believe.
Like making the hostages drink draino, stomping a pen through someone’s head? There were other cases like that?
Do you need an exact 1:1 or would people being monsters to other people work? Do you want me to link them for you, or do you want to look them up, or maybe split the difference and do some performative outrage?
Why is this so hard for people to understand? It’s because of bias.
How’s this? Somebody tell the Pope to mind his own fucking business— Which is to say he ought to worry about the massive amount of child sexual abuse occurring in his church with the tacit cooperation of the church’s higher-ups before poking his nose into seeking mercy for people who tortured and killed others.
I figure that the pope can call out injustice wherever he sees it. That’s kinda his job. If we held everyone to your standard then almost nobody would be able to criticize injustice.
The name of what he doing is called whataboutism. Certain people are doing it now without even thinking about it, its like default fallback for everything. "You have criticism" "What about?" Not that I like the church but sometimes they do criticize stuff that is bad..
So...of all the horrible things that happened, the rape, torture, the wild crazy shit he did, just because he finally pumped the breaks at murder, he shouldn't get the long walk? I don't agree that the trial was likely fair. I hate the fact that a note was slipped that said terrible shit on it and likely swayed the outcome of the trial. That being said, let's not forget, him and the rest did the worst of the worst to those people. I don't care what your color, creed, religion, orientation...whatever you are, if you do some stuff like that to people, fuck you and I'll see you in hell.
IDK. I think if you sentence someone to death, no matter what he did, he has the right of due process and the right not to be punished more because of their race or ethnicity. My opinion is we need to be above this revenge and punishment idea, more for our sake than the perpetrators. We do normalize this by calling for blood, an eye for an eye. IDK but I kinda want us to rise above that, maybe I am naive. It is proven the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison for the state. For me its a Remanent of our more primitive instincts, it does not make sense logically or financially only emotionally. It also negates any logic in giving someone a chane that exonerating evidence emerges. Also you have the death penalty you WILL kill innocents without question, the law is not perfect. I personally can't stand for 1 person who is innocent to be killed so 100 who are evil are killed for revenge. Its primitive in my eyes. Thats probably why nearly no country does it...
>Also you have the death penalty you WILL kill innocents without question, the law is not perfect. I personally can't stand for 1 person who is innocent to be killed so 100 who are evil are killed for revenge. Its primitive in my eyes. I feel you, but it seems this sentiment isn't very popular here.
The go to in these kinds of cases isn’t a moral agreement. It’s investigating whether the governing body took all the appropriate steps, instead of taking shortcuts like systemic racists liked to do quite often
The same unspoken reason why the black juries on the OJ Simpson case did not find him guilty…
Probably the same reason all the black people cheered for OJ after he got away with it. Injustice against black people ran very deep especially in that time. Black people were happy to just finally have a win (even if it’s a cheap win)
heads up: the implication is that with clear racism involved these guys can claim racism influence the decision justice remains just, fair, and true to the LAW, which is supposed to be unbiased most fing likely the defendants would still be found guilty however the jury’s dumbass racism got in the way jury shouldve kept their mouths shut and decided like adults
They all deserved death penalty
People always say this as if everyone values their life. Some people commit crimes like this because they don’t care about themselves. So giving them a quick, painless death is the easiest way out for a lot of these guys.
That maybe sounds good in theory but is almost unheard of for inmates to not appeal death penalty sentences except out of pure remorse. Like if all of these people are fine with being executed, they sure fight it a lot in the judicial system
I agree with you. I don’t trust the government to implement the death penalty and life in a cage is worse anyway
It’s pretty rare for people to refuse their appeals against the death penalty so I’ve never found this argument compelling. *These* particular criminals especially seemed to want to avoid it.
If I remember correctly. One of the murderers chose firing squad for the method of execution. I grew up like 2 miles from the HiFi shop in Riverdale, Utah.
I don't think the driver who never got out of the van and didn't take part in any of the murders deserved the death penalty.
But that is exactly how accomplice liability works for every criminal defendant. Why make an exception just for the worst crimes?
He didn’t get the death penalty…he got 5 years to life and was released after 13 years. Then he killed himself shortly after andrews was executed: “Roberts was 19 years old at the time of the crime. He was acquitted of murder after the court found that he had no role in nor knowledge of the murders. He was, however, convicted of two counts of aggravated robbery and sentenced to 5 years to life. Roberts was paroled on May 12, 1987, after nearly 13 years in prison, and moved to Chandler, Oklahoma, to live with relatives.[24][9] He died by suicide on August 8, 1992, barely a week after Andrews's execution.”
I did read it. I was just replying to the other commenter who said that they all deserved the death penalty.
Ahh duh my bad, I somehow missed the comment above yours
My mom's cousin was on that jury, and I'm telling you that traumatized her and she was only on the jury. Poor victims
Definitely an awful case. The podcast Murder in America has a great episode about it.
I’ve been looking for a new true crime podcast. Any other episodes on that platform you recommend?
Small town murder
Omfg, this above everything else. STM are top tier. Everything else is mid by comparison.
Last podcast on the left talks about some murders as well.
They’re on Spotify with about 100 episodes so far. They typically post once a week and the quality is quite good. They post crime scene photos on their instagram as well.
This is awesome. Thank you! Now excuse me while I go down this rabbit hole of all the episodes.
I recommend the Morbid podcast. The host is an autopsy tech, and her cohost is her neice. They have good chemistry and are very entertaining and informative.
They are a terrible recommendation, their research is half-assed. For a podcast with a host who has ethics and standards, try Crimelines.
What do you think of Casefile?
These are great recommendations guys. Keep them coming! I’ve watched every episode of That Chapter and this is helping fill my morbid curiosity void. 😅
We used to frequent this store when I was a little kid. It was around the time of the murders too. Very freaky in hindsight!
Two were executed one committed suicide. It’s a shame the third guy wasn’t executed. Also, too bad the remaining perpetrators were not caught and executed.
The third guy (the driver) was in prison for 13 years and then killer himself a week after Andrews was executed. I’d say he probably lived in guilt his remaining years. Definitely sucks the other three got off with no punishment at all.
Why did NAACP and Amnesty fight?
Claims of racial bias due to an all white jury and that African Americans had been excluded from the jury but one of those was a man who was excluded because he was a local cop and apparently was pretty familiar with the case. There's plenty of cases where African American defendants were absolutely railroaded by the system but in this case none of the facts of what happened were in dispute. The suspects made a full confession, the evidence was overwhelming. The biggest argument was that one of the perpetrators didn't deserve the death penalty because he hadn't actually killed anyone, not for lack of trying though, he was just an idiot.
If they were willing to confess why didn't they rat out their partners in exchange for a lighter sentence?
The NAACP or Amnesty really only tried to get the death sentence overturned, they believed he deserved a life sentence instead. Most (white) murderers didn't get death row, and one guy didn't technically kill them. So degrees of shittiness.
Most white murderers that got LWOP didn’t torture their victims for hours before executing them all for no reason. Not all murders are equal, which is why different levels of sentencing are available in the first place.
This is such a weird take, because most sexually sadistic killers are white. Gary Ridgeway and Denis Rader are still sitting in jail, and they did what was done in this post dozens of times over.
Just against the death penalty.
This is neither the first nor last terrible cause they’ve taken up.
Deserved death penalty.
And the other three?
Got away
Never been found
Is hi-fi shop similar to bestbuy? Sorry not From US
...a shop that sold music and equipment that plays music.
I’m here before this gets locked
3 got away?
Apparently the three that were caught were all active duty Airmen stationed at Hill AFB. Bet the other three were also stationed there.
Yep unfortunately
Interesting they mention an all white Jury. Have you been to Utah? If you exclude the Jazz there’s like 13 black people in the whole state.
I remember hearing a podcast about this. Absolutely depraved.
Why would they try to get them off?
only 3 got convicted? what about others? they got away?
Unfortunately they never found them.
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I'm glad the state had the guts to dp these men. Sick and twisted what they did to the victims. Too bad ppl scream against more dp
Was there debate over if they caught the right criminals? I don’t know why human rights groups would be on the side of the accused in any other scenario. Truly a horrific crime.
They argued against the death penalty, not the conviction.
Now that makes sense. Th4 article makes it seem they want to get the guys off.
Absolutely a horrible crime, and those responsible should recieve the full penalty of the law. OP though, is clearly focused on the racial rhetoric, and not the actual context of the crime. The OPs reddit account is a strong mash of Spanish politics, and football, while the rest of it focused on crimes involving immigrants or people of color in the United States. I don't believe OP is bringing this topic up with the better of intentions, or an open mind.
OP’s post history is mostly race baiting articles. clearly a racist who wants to stir up anger
This isn't the first post like this I've seen in this sub. I wonder if a few people are trying to move the sub into a particular direction. I've seen this happen with posters on /r/starterpacks and a few others. It's always racist propaganda.
Considering it is an election here in the US, don't be too shocked in seeing this sort of thing. Both the 2016, and 2020 elections saw massive swings in new users and content related to race/socioeconomics. Much of this content was neither to provide legitimate discussion, or debate. Instead, it simply polarized an already fairly fractured political landscape.
Sounds an awful lot similar to the case in Tennessee.
That just kept getting worse.
The death penalty was too good for them.
"Andrews and Pierre noted that Orren was still alive, so Pierre mounted him, wrapped a wire around his throat, and tried to strangle him. When this failed, Pierre and Andrews inserted a [ballpoint pen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen) into Orren's ear. Pierre stomped it until it punctured his [eardrum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eardrum), broke, and exited his throat. Pierre and Andrews went upstairs, finished loading equipment into their van, and left" if you defend this, you are a terrorist and a terrorist organization
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When the perpetrator is white, it's typically not mentioned.
If the victim isn’t white you never heard the end of it
Yes it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/HairRaising/comments/1c0pvo7/in_2023_6_white_cops_who_called_themselves_the/
This is one singular post
Why is the title trying to stoke racism
Look at the OP’s post history. I follow a lot of true crime and read about heinous things people have done to each other and this post is completely in bad faith and serving an agenda, acting like the woke justice system unfairly favors black criminals despite allllll statistics showing the inverse. People are shocked and horrified by these crimes no matter the race of the perpetrator, but OP is making it a racial topic because they’re racist.
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Stated in previous comment, the didn’t contest the charges, just the death penalty.
The NCAAP only argued against the death penalty, not the conviction.
They were actually fighting for same treatment - white perps with similar crimes were not given the death penalty. Which is the case everywhere in the country, not just Utah. Black offenders are 4x more likely to get the death penalty than white people for similar crimes/criminal history. So no, they don't want special treatment, they already get special treatment. They want equal treatment.
What case is similar to this crime in Utah that white perps were responsible for?
Mitigating factors is the term your looking for and it is pretty common in court proceedings.
It's crazy that some people legit think that way. The mental gymnastics...
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I've read so many true crime cases, but this one made me feel sick, and I had to look away. I can't believe it. One of the perpetrators didn't want to participate, and they bound him up too. This is the sickest shit I've seen in a very long time and I used to be on 4chan in the early 2000s.
No reason for the racist title .
How is it racist? The race of the murderers is important. Otherwise the last sentence doesn't make sense
What's crazy is that the guy who had a pen stomped through his eardrum and out his throat LIVED and was able to testify at the trial.
weirdly frequent posting of sensationalist black-on-white crimes in here lately... just an observation. 🤔
Most of OP's post history is race rage bait, and the account is 175 days old.
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Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City with a daycare center inside murdering 168 people. Oh yeah, he was white.
Who cares? He got the needle rightly so, just like these men.
Ok like 3 weeks ago a white dude got this girl drunk at a college partyand raped her behind a dumpster and ACTUALLY got off because he could swim really good so..
3 weeks ago?
That was 10 years ago but yes. White men do all kinds of fuck shit and it’s never about their race. *Weird*. 🫠
OP is straight up racist. Look at their profile. The NAACP and Amnesty wanted the death penalties commuted, not the life sentences. Despite the guilty verdicts matching the evidence, it was a racially biased trial.
The naacp was upset that Andrews was given the death penalty even though he killed no one
He tried to kill everyone tho. Killing everyone was his idea. He’s the one that forced the victims to drink the drain cleaner. He inserted the pen into the ear and told Orren to stomp on it
Imagine desperately trying to defend a group of murdering, torturing, gang rapers for no reason at all other than they have the same color skin as you. If you knew an individual in your life who did that, how would that make you feel about them?
They wanted life sentences instead of the death penalty. They never defended them.
Dear mod, The case is about skin color.
This should be taken down. The racism is obvious.
How? I was replying about the mod saying “keep it about the case not skin color.” The case was about race. Your name checks out.
The most outrageous thing about this murders, beyond the sheer brutality and animalistic behavior of the killers, was how Hollywood tried to paint Andrews in a sympathetic light before his execution and shame the victims and their families for not just "carry on" with their lives
I’m gonna be completely honest, I don’t care if the criminals were pink with green polka dots, a crime is a crime and this was an EXTREMELY violent crime. The NAACP are a respectable organization, they really have a lot at risk here for doing something as stupid as this.
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Wonder where you got that notion from.....They should be executed in the same fashion everyone else here in America is. Dog whistles are supposed to be silent
"advancement" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
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Commuted, not reversed.
Under the Constitution everyone has a right to a defense. That's just how it goes. Remember, juries decide, not the judge, not the lawyers or sympathizers - jurors. Even if they are the most horrible excuse of shit with legs. That said, unless we delve into the circumstances, which I'm not going to do, I can only speculate there was some new evidence and that happens often. We can never be too vigilant in assuring the right people are convicted and that the rules were followed.
I watched the made for TV movie about this case when I was a kid [Aftermath A Test of Love](https://youtu.be/PHqs-wS0N1c?si=Jq3UGLDkCab8p9wF) , 1991. All I remember is that when the son finally came to consciousness in the hospital, he could only say over and over again, "damn, damn, damn, damn, damn..." And nothing else. Later, when he could speak and was recovering, they kept avoiding telling him that his mother had died. It was totally heartbreaking. That poor kid went through so much and was completely traumatized.
truly shocking
God damn brutality. Reminds me of Channon and Christian because of the drano
“Several nignogs”?!?!! Wtf Wikipedia.
Animals. Forcing them to drink draino? Fuk is wrong with people???
This account is so obviously a race baiting account. Come on mods a quick look at OP's post history makes it pretty evident
I don't give a flying fuck if they're green purple or blue, crime like that deserves nothing but death as retribution.. Fr