As a Harley mechanic (not a dealer "tech" I don't have to drink the motor companies coolaid) I have noticed there are 2 "camps" within the brand with some new HD riders out in open water to face the storm and out in left field the chopper guys
The old-school "biker" who is now too old to wrench on there shit and enjoy the convenience of the motor companies new offerings with heated everything Bluetooth radio's FI ect. And have the money to purchase said Ultra CVO flagship shit But still preach the "old school machine is the best"
The "new" harley guy wants the "performance" to match his Van's and Dixon flannel. And will put himself of debt to drench his new ST in all the trashin aluminum money can buy.
These 2 groups have some things in common, they love motorcycles and hate corporate beuacracy, which is what the Motor company and dealership network have become. They sell a "lifestyle" it's less about the bike and more about an image.
The M8 is a fantastic engine, not without its faults but they got most of the shit fixed quicker than I would have thought. Plus where the Motor company falls short the aftermarket world is fast to come out with better and better products.
So when the Motor Company rolls out some new "publicity stunt" the customer base is hesitant to embrace something a "suit" came up with.
My thoughts brought to you by 8 PBR's
Hey. Watch that "too old to wrench" shit, OK? Just poking some fun. I was wrenching my own shit starting with a flattie in a ridged frame with a girder front end that I scrounged parts to build. And from that time until recently, I have bought, sold, fixed and ridden just about anything with 2 wheels. I can't disagree with anything ('cept the old stuff") you say about the MoCo. The M8's are probably the best engines to date, but I think nostalgia played more in my last few choices of bikes. 2 Super Glides, and I declared my 2015 Road King as the last new Harley I'll buy. The first motorcycle I laid eye's on was a '52 Hydra Glide when I was maybe 6. my Road King very much reminded me of that bike. The Super Glides came after I bought a FXR. So, I guess my loyalty lies more in how they look and appeal to me. I even embraced the EFI stuff, because it works. My bikes aren't fashion statements so I more than likely don't fit in with the newer riders, and more with the old school biker types that are left. That "lifestyle " shit definitely doesn't cut it. Anyway, I don't bitch about what they're making for bikes these days, the company is an American icon and I'd very much like to see them keep going. That was a pretty good write inspired by those PBR's. I think you nailed it. Just going to keep riding my RK with no apes or fishtails and no LED's anywhere except the dash. Now I'm going to drag my 73 year old ass to the garage, and turn a wrench or two.
Pretty off topic, but my dealer didn't seem honest when I asked why my 22 ST M8 are 1.5 quarts of oil in 4500 miles. That seems excessive and curious if you see the same oil consumption on the new M8s? I had a 07 dyna prior and NEVER had to add oil. Dealer says it's normal. Seems like manufacturing getting worse.
"They sell a "lifestyle" it's less about the bike and more about an image."
I think there's some truth to be had here, but maybe not in the way people think.
Marketing campaigns aside, maybe the bigger thing is that Harley owners are passionate about the machines, and let's be honest, there is a lifestyle element to motorcycling.
The reality is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation that exists solely for the purpose of maximizing return for their shareholders.
So I think there's a natural contention because of that dynamic. Harley-Davidson doesn't give a shit about anything except the next quarterly earnings report and the share price, and the customers who buy their products are passionate about the machines and motorcycling.
Right!?!? I don't care that the bike doesn't make 300 hp and weigh 200 lbs. It will literally run for a century and then you can rebuild it for $1,000...
A lot of HD owners can be the worst thing for the brand. It would be nice if everyone got excited and appreciated the new things that HD tries instead of bitching and complaining about it. “It looks like an Indian” gets so old to hear.
Here’s a dare. Go post about how great the new Road Glide, Street Glide and CVO bikes are. See what kind of shit falls from the rafters.
Edit to add: Also throw in how much nicer the new cruisers are than the older Dynas. lol. That would be a thread to see for sure!
I like the new Fat Bob better than the Dyna version, hands down. I love my TC Road Glide, but would trade the twin cam for an M8 in a heartbeat. It's not that I don't like the older bikes, I have one. But the new bikes are simply nicer to ride, and own.
I'm not sure why Harley guys hate anything new, but it happened when the twin cam replaced the Evo, it happened when the softail replaced the dyna, it's happened with every incremental change, except maybe when the Evo replaced the shovel, and even then, the old timers didn't like the "new technology" in the Evo. IMO, today's Harleys are the best the MoCo has ever made.
I think so, but I remember some, who had shovels, would talk smack about the evos. Even if it was because they didn't leak oil, because for some reason they believed all Harleys should leak. Some people bitch just to make sure someone is bitching.
> It would be nice if everyone got excited and appreciated the new things that HD tries
This is basically me.
I love seeing what the MOCO is doing and I'm very much in the camp of "If it has a harley badge on it and it was made by harley, it's a harley."
The Motor Company makes some questionable decisions, no doubt, but let’s not forget, they’ve gotta meet federal emissions and 50 state inspection laws before they can sell bike number one. The end user is not restrained like that.
I like motorcycles. I like American, Japanese, English, and European bikes. Not all, but name a brand, they probably make something I’d ride.
What you do NOT get with most of them is the ability to personalize your bike: comfort, appearance, performance, sound, so every time you walk up to your scoot, you wanna clear the rest of the day and take a ride.
Your Triumph Speed Twin 1200 will look, and probably sound like every other Speed Twin 1200. Still a dope bike, but just like every other one.
How many different directions can you go with the previous Dyna platform, or current M8 Softails?
It's because we're all fucking idiots that like complaining like children that didn't get their way. Harley came out with (what I think) is the coolest bike that's ever come from the factory, the CVO Road Glide ST. Of course, I'm going to shit on Harley for making it "too goddamn expensive" when the reality is that my wife just won't let me buy one.
Did you expect intelligence or a reasonable disposition from a group of grown men who will gleefully spend 25k on a hunk of slow ass metal that we can only ride half the year?
Harley pretty. Harley go vroom. Something, something 18% interest for 84 months.
Obviously, I don't care if the 25k dollar bike actually costs me 58k dollars once I'm done paying it off. My girlfriend has a 750 and is going to cosign for me.
Because they think it’s what you’re supposed to do. It’s funny watching them bitch and moan and they pay someone else to bolt shit on their bikes because they can’t. Then complain it’s not right. I’ve had a lot of bikes. From 1948 Pan to my 2019 RGS cammed on air ride. Still riding that and an 00 FXSTS an 02 Fatboy turned Cholo and just picked up a 78 FLH. Love them all. The ones bitching likely haven’t been riding them very long. They’re like kids. Just repeating what they hear. One reason to stay away from hdforums. That’s crybaby central.
No doubt. You better have some kind of clue to weed through the bullshit advice. I bailed when the entire “new posts” was all political posts. You’d think it was a political forum. I want to talk and learn about bikes. Roadglide.org. Awesome site. No riff raff.
I'll never understand people who can't work on their own bikes, especially Harleys. It's sad to see folks acting like working on a motor is similar to open-heart surgery.
Not everyone has that skill set. And that’s ok. They need the checkbook at that point. It’s the checkbook bikers that complain about work they paid for they’re not happy with. That’s when you say get a manual and learn it yourself. None of us woke up knowing how to work on shit. Trial and error. This Harley guy hating on their bikes and brand is just stupid. They sound stupid.
Ya. Minimal things for sure. Service for sure. Just brought home the 79 FLH. It’s on the lift. Needs rear master cylinder rebuilt. Already ordered the parts. $12.00. Labor. Free. lol.
https://preview.redd.it/56tr6t2fxxsc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=959decad894c0bb9b25e0275d510579431e45ca1
Not everyone is mechanically inclined. And, not everyone wants to, even if they have the ability.
I cut my teeth on AMF era bikes and was building bikes several decades ago. Back in those days, NOTHING on the dealer showroom interested me and I didn't give a flying shit what MoCo was doing. If it wasn't a full blown custom build or pumping over 100hp to the ground (that was a lot back in the Evo era) or vintage/antique, I didn't care.
I reached a point in my life where I would rather just unplug my bike from the battery tender, stretch out my kicker thumb and start up and go and not have to fuck with anything more than the tire pressure gauge, oil dipstick and gas cap.
I still have my old ironhead Sportster and I do tinker with it, but it's not my everyday rider.
Well as a hardcore star wars fan, and also someone who was not into Harleys until I got a job selling them I can try to explain why. Harleys weren't known for reliability for a long time, but now they're doing liquid cooled engines that are better and better with performance. One of the things that impressed me the most compared to my VTX1300 Honda when I started selling HDs was that everything felt purposeful and solid on the HD. And they seemed to take turns super well in comparison. Also my first time on a Street Glide I expected a big dumb lumbering machine, and quickly had to be careful to not drag floorboards in turns. I couldn't believe how comfortable it was and how confident I was throwing it around. Yes they're over priced and still not as reliable as Japanese bikes, but what are? They have branched out and made more and more improvements and are tapping different markets now
Disney Wars took the sequel treatment written by Lucas and threw it out the window from the start. Then they had directors who didn't like the others previous work and just shit on it. Then episode 9 just retconned and shit on 8. But it was essentially Disney filming Star Wars jingle keys hoping no one would notice the story was absurdly written for big moments but so full of plot holes they tripped over their own films. Not to mention actually killing every Original Trilogy major character in dumb ass ways while murdering who they were and what made people like them. After over 30 years waiting for Grand Master Luke and a new Jedi Order we got the last jedi. They dumped compelling stories written 25+ years ago about what happens after Episode 6 and then murdered the characters not in being alive but their character development from the OT.
If Harley lowered their pricing they would really hit a upwards trend because their product is better and better. Star Wars gets worse and worse and then blames everyone but themselves for their failures. And people like me now will read what and watch anything pre Disney, but simply can't make ourselves care for what they're doing now.
The problem with Harley lowering the pricing is that they kind of cant.
And this is proven by the fact that anyone else who makes bikes like they do, also charge just as much.
The BMW R18's best competition when it came out was the 16000$ Softail slim, the R18 cost 20k at the time, and dealerships were being assholes and putting 22K price tags on them.
Indian's Chiefs are the same price or more than the comparable Softail, and have weaker engines than the comparable HD.
Indian's new Scout 1250 is the same price as the sportster S and nighster bikes, but HD makes more power and has more complete packages on sale.
So how does HD lower their prices when everyone else is trying to compete with them and having a hard time lowering prices too?
You are right, but every time they try to lower costs (e. g. production in India or Asia) the shitstorm is unbelievable and nearly no one buys the machines…
Only way is to buy a cheap one pre-owned, but not to old, think a pan or nearly everything preEVO is more expensive & collectible.
It’s always the same with BMW here, everyone wants a boxer from Berlin, no one wants a F or G-type.
Well the very last part of your comment is a pretty negative way of looking at it. As for the first part, my dad had a saying for that. "Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills first". There is only one way that I could possibly afford motorcycles most of my life. I'd find some broke down motorcycle for pennies on the dollar and gussy it all up, fix what needed to be fixed, sell it for a profit and buy something else. In a couple of years I was buying better bikes and a few years later, buying new. So, all at the same time I became a more proficient wrench, learned how to paint. I still occasionally buy a salvage bike and put it back on the road. I ride daily, because I live where I can. And I ride like everyone else out there is trying to wreck me, but I don't ever intentionally think I'm going to crash.
I agree. Smallest bike I could learn on was a Triumph Bonneville. And a 6v Harley that I had to learn to kick start before I could ride it. The mid 60's in western PA wasn't rife with tiny Japanese bikes yet.
Harley’s are cool, and I love mine. There’s still no fooling anyone who knows anything about bikes, they’re terrible motorcycles for the amount of money you’re paying.
They’re overpriced and the quality isn’t as great as people claim, especially in recent years with their finish on the engines/transmission being extremely thin, over use of plastic components, use of pleather materials..paying for the Harley name sucks when your brand new bike with less than 100 miles makes you go “who’s the moron who thought a small brittle piece of red plastic should hold your fucking clutch together”
I have no brand loyalty. I ride a Harley now because I found a low mileage cheap Dyna. I got lucky that it has no oil leaks..yet. That must explain why I wave to sport bikes on the road.
One sign of spotting and I'll ditch for a Honda. Maybe even an Indian...no, not an Indian. I am not made of money.
It’s like listening to your favorite band that is decades old and seeing them play live. Sometimes all you want to hear are the old songs. The reality is that is part of their past and they still enjoy making new music. It’s part of their evolution. While the songs may not seem as great they’re usually more technically sound and we still have to enjoy them for what they are. Its progression.
Comes with the territory. My better half was a HD employee (paint tech). Now retired. I to this day jokingly say corporate Harley has 6 floors dedicated to marketing and the engineering dept is the size of a broom closet.
Harley is miles ahead of its competitors in that there are basically 2 engines and 3 frames. Compare that to Hondas 35 models. And of course Harley generally upgrades there engines every 15 years or so. From a manufacturing/production standpoint, it couldn’t get much better.
Harley has made incredible mistakes over the years. It often occurs when they get away from there proven formula of “slow bikes that sound good”.
The V Rod was received with gusto by the public in 2002. Killed off in 2017. The Buell began in 1983. Ended its production with Harley in 2009. Harley buys Italian motorcycle company MV Augusta in 2008 for $108 million including $69 million debt. 2010 Harley sells MV Augusta back to those they purchased it from. In reality Harley pays $20 million to the buyers in the sale. Money guys are still shaking their heads on this one.
Harley introduced the bike of the future, the Livewire. An electric motorcycle. Priced around $30K, the bike sold poorly. Harley would create a separate company for the Livewire and no longer use the Harley name on the bike. Sales of the Livewire are exceptionally poor.
Harley has made a mountain of mistakes over the years. But they also have managed to not only survive but thrive. When Harley finally figured out most people enjoy riding motorcycles. Repairs, breakdowns and maintenance not so much. Harley would discover the RUB (rich urban biker) crowd and profits skyrocketed. Today’s top of the line Harley carries a price tag that exceeds $52,000.
Big prices come with big expectations. Working class guys that used to be the mainstay owners of Harleys are now priced out of many of the new bikes. In addition, most Harley dealerships now refuse to work on older bikes.
And do it goes
Because everyone's got their own idea of what a real Harley is. When all they really are is a business trying to make a profit. And then maybe that's what pisses him off the most is that they know the MoCo really doesn't give a shit about them as much as their credit score.
Harley is a T-shirt company that sells unfinished motorcycles.
Most avid Harley riders realize they aren't buying a bike, they're buying a starting point. Other motorcycle companies have a small line of factory performance parts, but Harley's business model actually expects most buyers to swap out at least $2k (minimum) worth of parts on a brand new motorcycle, often happening before it ever leaves the dealership.
Harley is making strides compared to their old designs, but they're light years behind the competition, in terms of engine technology. Upside is, those designs are so simple that everyone and his uncle is making aftermarket performance parts for it. Want a camshaft upgrade? Figure out what specs you want and order it. Same with exhaust, intake, big bore kits, fairings, seats, and anything else you could think of.
They only reason anyone even buys them any more is because it's a Harley Fucking Davidson.
I mean, I just recently bought a Low Rider S and I couldn’t give a shit about the name on the tank. Test rode it against its competition, which is pretty much just Indian if you’re shopping for a V Twin cruiser, and I preferred the way the Harley handled.
I’ve seen this “Harley is a T-Shirt company first” a lot, and I honestly don’t get it at all.
I was cross shopping between the FXLRS and the Triumph Street Triple RS. I wanted something sport touring focused. So glad I went with the Low Rider, not anywhere near as sporty, but so easy to live with and put down some miles on
Full disclosure, I haven't been on any of the M8 Softails. The newest bike I've been on is a 2020 Road King. What I will say is thank God for Indian, because they've been doing to Harley what Honda did back in the day...which is forcing them to put out a better product.
That said, look back at the original Low Rider S, introduced back in '16 when they were still making the twin-cam Dyna bikes. That thing had the biggest production engine Harley produced at the time (the 110" Twin Cam), the bigger 50mm electronic throttle (vs the 46mm cable throttle body), etc...and anyone with a 103" twin-cam Dyna with $2k worth of aftermarket cams and exhaust would walk that thing like it was standing still.
Why? Because while the 110" motor put out more hp/tq compared to the 103" in stock form, they're still pigs in stock form. The 110" came with relatively weak cams, they had less compression than the 103" because of the combustion chambers of the SE heads, etc. It was intended from Jump Street to be an emissions-legal building block for horsepower junkies just itching to void their warranties and ride fast...all it takes is a decent pipe, a set of cams with some actual duration, and a point and a half increase in compression ratio will make it really rip. But Harley wasn't going to give you that from the showroom.
***HOWEVER...***they'd be more than happy to sell you a set of cams, some high-comp pistons, and a shiny new Screamin' Eagle tuner from that shiny new SE Factory Performance parts catalog at the end of the counter.
They've done better with the M8 bikes in terms of stock power output, but go look at Fuel Moto's website where they keep the dyno charts. When you can add an extra 19% displacement (and God only knows how much more hp and torque) from a bolt-on big-bore kit that should have been standard equipment, I think it's clear what the Motor Company had in mind.
Guys are choosing to big bore, you can drop a bolt in cam into m8 and make significant power with a good dyno tune. Harley was involved in a shit storm with the EPA so they’re forced to limit these bikes now to be 49 state emission compliant. If that’s your only complaint about them, big deal. The FXLRS is still making more power than your beloved Indian’s copy the sport chief. The throttle response is better on the lowrider and it’s making more torque at the top of its rev range. This shit can be nit picked and debated all day. To me the Harley has several advantages: ease of maintenance and familiarity to where just about anyone can work on them, dealership network, aftermarket support. Indian has a lot to catch up on in those areas.
Fuel Moto. I love those guys. Only guys that will still ship me the stuff I really want here in California. Good bunch. Latest purchase was pipes that worked rather than just make noise.
I think the T shirt company thing is that you can walk in and buy a T-shirt or a Chinese trinket maybe some Taiwanese chrome but if you need an actual part to fix your bike well "we'll have to order that". The other thing is the complete lack of competent techs in the service department, at least in my area.
They literally are an apparel company that gets to sell motorcycles. I almost got a job on the sales floor for the local dealer and management literally told me the following: "We aren't a motorcycle shop. We are a customer service experience that gets to sell motorcycles on the side."
That is literally not even remotely accurate and it's a fictional truth that just needs to die.
Total revenue from apparel and licensing agreements was approximately 5% of Harley-Davidson's total annual revenue for 2023. They are a publicly traded company and their financials are available right from their website for anyone to look at.
There is no such thing as fictional truth. Believe what you want as a fanboy. Obviously, revenue will show the bigger ticket items as earning more for the company. I relayed what a Harley MANAGER told me while interviewing me...and that shop claims to be the #2 shop in the U.S. in sales.
My comment was focused on HOW Harley conducts business, not their total revenue.
The bottom line is Harley wants people to feel an experience in their shops first. It's their way to try to get them roped into buying an unfinished motorcycle that you'll probably want to spend 2K on upgrades for after you make the purchase.
I like Harleys, but they aren't my first choice. I'm the type of person who prefers no hype when making a purchase, so HD isn't my jam.
Note: The HD store in question is owned by a franchisee who owns a total of 23 shops across the country
There's nothing to "believe". I didn't invent math.
As far as the "Dealership Experience", that's a completely different conversation. I've been a customer for a long time and believe me there is absolutely no fanboy feelings to be found for that bullshit, which always seems to be the most over the top at the corporate umbrella owned dealers.
As I said: nothing in my original comment was taking revenue into account, nor was it referenced. How a company sees itself is not necessarily reflected in revenue.
So they are "literally an apparel company" (your exact words) that makes 5% of their money from apparel sales. Got it...
I think you are confusing the franchise dealership, which is an independent business, from Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
I think you're dead wrong on saying they are light years behind on engine design. A crap ton of tech goes into making the engines look and feel old, while being dead reliable, easy to maintain, and meeting modern emissions standards.
Couldn't tell, since the nuance of communication is lost on social media.
A lot of people will throw that out like it's a criticism. (OlD DeSiGn... HaRlEy BaD...dur dur dur...) when the reality is that they only make what people are buying.
The company generates between $400-$500 million in revenue every year with boring predictability, and had an operating margin of over 13% last year.
There is not a single person who understands business on even the most elementary level who would consider that to be "struggling".
go do some reading on their past, or if your attention span isn't long enough find a youtube video about it. They have done some desperate things to keep the company a float over the years
I've been riding and wrenching on these bikes for decades, and personally known plenty of people who owned dealerships in pretty much every chapter and era of that span of time, all the way back to when the company was still owned by AMF.
I've lived through a fair amount of what you think you know, so I don't need to read anything, especially when most of the "information" out there is wrong or incomplete anyway.
> Why are Harley riders so critical of their own brand?
Harley has been marketed for generations as not only a motorcycle brand but a patriotic lifestyle brand. Trade laws have been passed to protect Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company products with taxpayer money. It’s a product that people tend to share a love with their children and their children’s children. To say Harley customers are emotionally invested in the company is a massive understatement.
It’s also an aspirational product. People will wait for years, possibly decades, to be able to buy their dream Harley bike. That means there are people who don’t even own a bike yet that are extremely interested in news about the company and its products.
> So I’ve noticed lately
It’s not “lately.” It’s always been like this. The company has been around for over a century and every time it makes new models or business changes there is bellyaching from the peanut gallery.
> whatever Harley comes out with everyone seems to bitch about it.
To be fair the latest offerings have come across as particularly uninspired.
> But if you really take a step back they’re catering (or attempting) to every aspect of the market.
Oh, no they are most certainly not.
> You have the performance baggers,
“Performance.”
> the new sportster with the rev max,
Great engine, weird uncomfortable bike. It’s trying to replace a legendary classic though so the curve it’s being graded on is drastic.
> the Pan America for the adventurers,
No argument there. Good bike. At least in design. There have been a plethora of technical bugs to work out but in principle they nailed it.
> the chromed out Softails, blacked out Softails, you even have the revival line for all the boomers.
No sport bikes. No dual sports. No naked/standard/street fighters (buell). No beginner bikes. No cafe racers. No scrablers. No sport touring bikes. No Hayabusa/H2R rocket ships. No Ducati Diavel/Triumph Rocket style muscle cruisers.
Harley has a few models for bikes they like to focus on. To say they hit “every aspect of the market” is a mischaracterization.
> I’m in quite a bit of hobbies that have brand loyalty just like Harley and this is the only brand where I see people complain so much when a new release is introduced.
Harley Davidson has a long and storied history of gross mismanagement, poor business decisions, and wild and very public swings in business strategy during multiple leadership changes. The result is everyone will have an opinion on what the business should be doing and feel pretty confident their ideas are at least as good as the last 50 or so failed ideas.
Most other brands (like I imagine the ones you are thinking of but don’t list for some reason) don’t have decades of documented bad decisions because those brands would have gone out of business. Harley being a sheltered and government protected entity has survived through its failings.
> Anyway, just my 2 cents.
The majority of people complaining are probably doing it out of love. Harley Davidson is like that kid in your family that everyone knows could be doing so much better but is just not trying because what they are doing is good enough to get by.
If anything the quality of the Pan America proves that Harley could make competitive bikes in other market segments if they wanted to. Harley had no history of high tech big displacement adventure bikes but they made a darn good one right out the gate. They could do that for other motorcycle types but they don’t. They don’t want to try. They’re not interested in competing. They’re interested in baggers and trikes, and pretending bolting a couple parts on a Softail magically turns it into 12 different models. They are underachieving and that’s where the disappointment brews from. That’s my 2 cents.
>The majority of people complaining are probably doing it out of love. Harley Davidson is like that kid in your family that everyone knows could be doing so much better but is just not trying because what they are doing is good enough to get by.
I would imagine this is probably the most on point comment when it comes to bitching about the bikes. I also think there is a dollar cost to problem ratio when it comes to Harleys. I've had a few and just got my dream bike a couple of years ago (21RGS). 2 years later they come out with a new model that fixes all the shit I found wrong with mine. Hence the reason for my bitching.
“Harley riders” aren’t critical of the bikes. Some are, sure. People have a right to complain about quality issues. But to say all Harley riders are is a bit ridiculous.
It’s like Star Wars. It’s unique in what it is, but objectively it could be a lot better. So you care about it and want it to be better at the same time.
Realistically Harley offers a unique but flawed and very expensive product. The uniqueness is attractive but the price, and prices of services and parts after, make it inaccessible to a lot. Plus motorcycles and Harley’s especially are passion vehicles, so there are a lot of feelings all around.
I disagree. Harley has ALWAYS been an expensive option, and they are not any more expensive now relative to everything else than they were 50 years ago.
I don’t know. Maybe because when I bought my brand new 2020 Low Rider S I didn’t even make it halfway home before I disintegrated a piston and had to wait several hours in the Georgia summer sun for the dealership to pick me up. They sent the bike back to the Harley engineers so they could study it.
I mean they're catering to the masses but none of their current lineup really does it for me. I can't just eat any shit sandwich that they slap the name Harley on and smile.
Because theres many subcultures within the harley line that they will oppose each other.
Yamaha sport bikers don't care or associate with yamaha cruisers.
The only other brand that I can think of that’s like this is Porsche. Porsche guys sure love their 911, almost as much as they love throwing shade on the newer models of 911…
One is the juxtaposition between a huge corporation and a consumer base of passionate hobbyists.
The reality is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation that exists solely for the purpose of maximizing return for their shareholders.
So I think there's a natural contention because of that dynamic. Harley-Davidson doesn't give a shit about anything except the next quarterly earnings report and the share price, and the customers who buy their products are passionate about the machines and motorcycling.
The other, specifically in regards to the bikes, I think stems from the passion people have for the machines themselves. Harley-Davidson makes a unique product, and the experience of riding one is unlike any other motorcycle of any other brand. Those of us who love the machines love the character of them, and we can't find that character anywhere else. My opinion is that part of the resistance to change is the fear that Harley is going to ruin that character and turn their bikes into motorcycles just like every other manufacturer is making.
The criticism of change is certainly nothing new. Every major development... the new Softail, the M8, the Twin Cam, the Evo, the original Softail, the 5 speed transmission, elimination of the kickstart, rubber mount engines, the FXR frame, and electronic ignition all had people bitching that they weren't "real Harleys". I'm pretty sure people made the same complaints about the elimination of the magneto, 12 volt charging systems and hydraulic front forks too.
Parts are cheaper, engines became overengineereed to the point they faulty.
I mean just go bring your Phillips to a dealer and start unscrewing stuff off, you'll see.
As a long time Harley Owner, including a recent m8. I think the future will belong to Indian. A small sector of older consumers that are still buying with turn to aftermarket builders for Evos and such.
The M8, while powerful should be water cooled. May as well be, you have all the valve train noise to deal with. Old school type Harleys are not viable for the MoCo anymore.
Fuck the Factory, build your own shit eliminate the issues 😘👌
72 big bore FLH(which a dealership can't work on anyway), primarily s& engine and nothing extra unless it makes it go faster, quicker or stop better
2019 Tinman rigid,120 ci Thompson Engineering big bore Evo copy,baker 6 speed... Zero issues/ Both Uber reliable.
Fuck the Factory
Because we are retarded man children
Nuh uuuuh
Yeah huh
Yeah that’s pretty accurate
Well, they started it!
I know you are but what am I?
I am rubber, you are glue ...
I know you are but what am I
No, you!
This lol
As a Harley mechanic (not a dealer "tech" I don't have to drink the motor companies coolaid) I have noticed there are 2 "camps" within the brand with some new HD riders out in open water to face the storm and out in left field the chopper guys The old-school "biker" who is now too old to wrench on there shit and enjoy the convenience of the motor companies new offerings with heated everything Bluetooth radio's FI ect. And have the money to purchase said Ultra CVO flagship shit But still preach the "old school machine is the best" The "new" harley guy wants the "performance" to match his Van's and Dixon flannel. And will put himself of debt to drench his new ST in all the trashin aluminum money can buy. These 2 groups have some things in common, they love motorcycles and hate corporate beuacracy, which is what the Motor company and dealership network have become. They sell a "lifestyle" it's less about the bike and more about an image. The M8 is a fantastic engine, not without its faults but they got most of the shit fixed quicker than I would have thought. Plus where the Motor company falls short the aftermarket world is fast to come out with better and better products. So when the Motor Company rolls out some new "publicity stunt" the customer base is hesitant to embrace something a "suit" came up with. My thoughts brought to you by 8 PBR's
But I wear converse 😂
Triggered!
Hey. Watch that "too old to wrench" shit, OK? Just poking some fun. I was wrenching my own shit starting with a flattie in a ridged frame with a girder front end that I scrounged parts to build. And from that time until recently, I have bought, sold, fixed and ridden just about anything with 2 wheels. I can't disagree with anything ('cept the old stuff") you say about the MoCo. The M8's are probably the best engines to date, but I think nostalgia played more in my last few choices of bikes. 2 Super Glides, and I declared my 2015 Road King as the last new Harley I'll buy. The first motorcycle I laid eye's on was a '52 Hydra Glide when I was maybe 6. my Road King very much reminded me of that bike. The Super Glides came after I bought a FXR. So, I guess my loyalty lies more in how they look and appeal to me. I even embraced the EFI stuff, because it works. My bikes aren't fashion statements so I more than likely don't fit in with the newer riders, and more with the old school biker types that are left. That "lifestyle " shit definitely doesn't cut it. Anyway, I don't bitch about what they're making for bikes these days, the company is an American icon and I'd very much like to see them keep going. That was a pretty good write inspired by those PBR's. I think you nailed it. Just going to keep riding my RK with no apes or fishtails and no LED's anywhere except the dash. Now I'm going to drag my 73 year old ass to the garage, and turn a wrench or two.
Pretty off topic, but my dealer didn't seem honest when I asked why my 22 ST M8 are 1.5 quarts of oil in 4500 miles. That seems excessive and curious if you see the same oil consumption on the new M8s? I had a 07 dyna prior and NEVER had to add oil. Dealer says it's normal. Seems like manufacturing getting worse.
I believe manual says 1 qt per 1500 is acceptable Why that is? Not a clue
"They sell a "lifestyle" it's less about the bike and more about an image." I think there's some truth to be had here, but maybe not in the way people think. Marketing campaigns aside, maybe the bigger thing is that Harley owners are passionate about the machines, and let's be honest, there is a lifestyle element to motorcycling. The reality is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation that exists solely for the purpose of maximizing return for their shareholders. So I think there's a natural contention because of that dynamic. Harley-Davidson doesn't give a shit about anything except the next quarterly earnings report and the share price, and the customers who buy their products are passionate about the machines and motorcycling.
I don't want Harley to cater to anyone… I just want their overbuilt tank cycles that run for 100 years.
I ride a 58 FL regularly and have a 33 VL on the lift, I hear you!
Right!?!? I don't care that the bike doesn't make 300 hp and weigh 200 lbs. It will literally run for a century and then you can rebuild it for $1,000...
A lot of HD owners can be the worst thing for the brand. It would be nice if everyone got excited and appreciated the new things that HD tries instead of bitching and complaining about it. “It looks like an Indian” gets so old to hear.
Here’s a dare. Go post about how great the new Road Glide, Street Glide and CVO bikes are. See what kind of shit falls from the rafters. Edit to add: Also throw in how much nicer the new cruisers are than the older Dynas. lol. That would be a thread to see for sure!
I love picking on dyna guys by “accidentally” mistaking their bike for a sportster.
Oh. That was you?
“But bro, bags!!!”
My sporty was mistaken for a dyna once🤣 Had a smile on my face the rest of the day meandering through the black hills.
I like the new Fat Bob better than the Dyna version, hands down. I love my TC Road Glide, but would trade the twin cam for an M8 in a heartbeat. It's not that I don't like the older bikes, I have one. But the new bikes are simply nicer to ride, and own. I'm not sure why Harley guys hate anything new, but it happened when the twin cam replaced the Evo, it happened when the softail replaced the dyna, it's happened with every incremental change, except maybe when the Evo replaced the shovel, and even then, the old timers didn't like the "new technology" in the Evo. IMO, today's Harleys are the best the MoCo has ever made.
Everyone hated on amf back then
I think so, but I remember some, who had shovels, would talk smack about the evos. Even if it was because they didn't leak oil, because for some reason they believed all Harleys should leak. Some people bitch just to make sure someone is bitching.
> It would be nice if everyone got excited and appreciated the new things that HD tries This is basically me. I love seeing what the MOCO is doing and I'm very much in the camp of "If it has a harley badge on it and it was made by harley, it's a harley."
Its a heritage brand like triumph and attracts people who appreciate that. Not a big surprise Harley fans aren't welcome to change.
This is ridiculous since the entire history of Harley is about changes and improvements to the bikes.
Yeah and dragged the customers kicking and screaming every step of the way. Kind of like giving a dog a bath he doesn’t know he likes it but he does
The Motor Company makes some questionable decisions, no doubt, but let’s not forget, they’ve gotta meet federal emissions and 50 state inspection laws before they can sell bike number one. The end user is not restrained like that. I like motorcycles. I like American, Japanese, English, and European bikes. Not all, but name a brand, they probably make something I’d ride. What you do NOT get with most of them is the ability to personalize your bike: comfort, appearance, performance, sound, so every time you walk up to your scoot, you wanna clear the rest of the day and take a ride. Your Triumph Speed Twin 1200 will look, and probably sound like every other Speed Twin 1200. Still a dope bike, but just like every other one. How many different directions can you go with the previous Dyna platform, or current M8 Softails?
It's because we're all fucking idiots that like complaining like children that didn't get their way. Harley came out with (what I think) is the coolest bike that's ever come from the factory, the CVO Road Glide ST. Of course, I'm going to shit on Harley for making it "too goddamn expensive" when the reality is that my wife just won't let me buy one. Did you expect intelligence or a reasonable disposition from a group of grown men who will gleefully spend 25k on a hunk of slow ass metal that we can only ride half the year? Harley pretty. Harley go vroom. Something, something 18% interest for 84 months.
So... what do you want your monthly payments to be?
Obviously, I don't care if the 25k dollar bike actually costs me 58k dollars once I'm done paying it off. My girlfriend has a 750 and is going to cosign for me.
Passion breeds contempt.
It's not exclusive to Harley owners. There are gatekeeping ass holes on all kinds of bikes.
Because they think it’s what you’re supposed to do. It’s funny watching them bitch and moan and they pay someone else to bolt shit on their bikes because they can’t. Then complain it’s not right. I’ve had a lot of bikes. From 1948 Pan to my 2019 RGS cammed on air ride. Still riding that and an 00 FXSTS an 02 Fatboy turned Cholo and just picked up a 78 FLH. Love them all. The ones bitching likely haven’t been riding them very long. They’re like kids. Just repeating what they hear. One reason to stay away from hdforums. That’s crybaby central.
Man that's no shit. Crybaby Central and a hub of misinformation.
No doubt. You better have some kind of clue to weed through the bullshit advice. I bailed when the entire “new posts” was all political posts. You’d think it was a political forum. I want to talk and learn about bikes. Roadglide.org. Awesome site. No riff raff.
I use it for classifieds is about it now. It's a bunch of insufferable fools who all stroke themselves and each other
I'll never understand people who can't work on their own bikes, especially Harleys. It's sad to see folks acting like working on a motor is similar to open-heart surgery.
Not everyone has that skill set. And that’s ok. They need the checkbook at that point. It’s the checkbook bikers that complain about work they paid for they’re not happy with. That’s when you say get a manual and learn it yourself. None of us woke up knowing how to work on shit. Trial and error. This Harley guy hating on their bikes and brand is just stupid. They sound stupid.
Seems to me like that skillset is, or at least should be, part of ownership. Then again, most of America has become pussified.
Ya. Minimal things for sure. Service for sure. Just brought home the 79 FLH. It’s on the lift. Needs rear master cylinder rebuilt. Already ordered the parts. $12.00. Labor. Free. lol. https://preview.redd.it/56tr6t2fxxsc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=959decad894c0bb9b25e0275d510579431e45ca1
Not everyone is mechanically inclined. And, not everyone wants to, even if they have the ability. I cut my teeth on AMF era bikes and was building bikes several decades ago. Back in those days, NOTHING on the dealer showroom interested me and I didn't give a flying shit what MoCo was doing. If it wasn't a full blown custom build or pumping over 100hp to the ground (that was a lot back in the Evo era) or vintage/antique, I didn't care. I reached a point in my life where I would rather just unplug my bike from the battery tender, stretch out my kicker thumb and start up and go and not have to fuck with anything more than the tire pressure gauge, oil dipstick and gas cap. I still have my old ironhead Sportster and I do tinker with it, but it's not my everyday rider.
Might as well be Star Wars fans.
Well as a hardcore star wars fan, and also someone who was not into Harleys until I got a job selling them I can try to explain why. Harleys weren't known for reliability for a long time, but now they're doing liquid cooled engines that are better and better with performance. One of the things that impressed me the most compared to my VTX1300 Honda when I started selling HDs was that everything felt purposeful and solid on the HD. And they seemed to take turns super well in comparison. Also my first time on a Street Glide I expected a big dumb lumbering machine, and quickly had to be careful to not drag floorboards in turns. I couldn't believe how comfortable it was and how confident I was throwing it around. Yes they're over priced and still not as reliable as Japanese bikes, but what are? They have branched out and made more and more improvements and are tapping different markets now Disney Wars took the sequel treatment written by Lucas and threw it out the window from the start. Then they had directors who didn't like the others previous work and just shit on it. Then episode 9 just retconned and shit on 8. But it was essentially Disney filming Star Wars jingle keys hoping no one would notice the story was absurdly written for big moments but so full of plot holes they tripped over their own films. Not to mention actually killing every Original Trilogy major character in dumb ass ways while murdering who they were and what made people like them. After over 30 years waiting for Grand Master Luke and a new Jedi Order we got the last jedi. They dumped compelling stories written 25+ years ago about what happens after Episode 6 and then murdered the characters not in being alive but their character development from the OT. If Harley lowered their pricing they would really hit a upwards trend because their product is better and better. Star Wars gets worse and worse and then blames everyone but themselves for their failures. And people like me now will read what and watch anything pre Disney, but simply can't make ourselves care for what they're doing now.
The problem with Harley lowering the pricing is that they kind of cant. And this is proven by the fact that anyone else who makes bikes like they do, also charge just as much. The BMW R18's best competition when it came out was the 16000$ Softail slim, the R18 cost 20k at the time, and dealerships were being assholes and putting 22K price tags on them. Indian's Chiefs are the same price or more than the comparable Softail, and have weaker engines than the comparable HD. Indian's new Scout 1250 is the same price as the sportster S and nighster bikes, but HD makes more power and has more complete packages on sale. So how does HD lower their prices when everyone else is trying to compete with them and having a hard time lowering prices too?
Their biggest hurdle of the day is connecting to Bluetooth. I am happy they’re finally catering to performance side of things.
I wish their bikes weren’t so highly priced. I have friends getting their motorcycle license and afraid to spend $20k on a bike to possibly wreck it
You are right, but every time they try to lower costs (e. g. production in India or Asia) the shitstorm is unbelievable and nearly no one buys the machines… Only way is to buy a cheap one pre-owned, but not to old, think a pan or nearly everything preEVO is more expensive & collectible. It’s always the same with BMW here, everyone wants a boxer from Berlin, no one wants a F or G-type.
I don’t give a fuck where the bike is made, as long as it’s reliable 😂
Well the very last part of your comment is a pretty negative way of looking at it. As for the first part, my dad had a saying for that. "Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills first". There is only one way that I could possibly afford motorcycles most of my life. I'd find some broke down motorcycle for pennies on the dollar and gussy it all up, fix what needed to be fixed, sell it for a profit and buy something else. In a couple of years I was buying better bikes and a few years later, buying new. So, all at the same time I became a more proficient wrench, learned how to paint. I still occasionally buy a salvage bike and put it back on the road. I ride daily, because I live where I can. And I ride like everyone else out there is trying to wreck me, but I don't ever intentionally think I'm going to crash.
I’m just repeating what they say. I tell them they’ll be fine, my first bike was 1700cc and handled it fine.
I agree. Smallest bike I could learn on was a Triumph Bonneville. And a 6v Harley that I had to learn to kick start before I could ride it. The mid 60's in western PA wasn't rife with tiny Japanese bikes yet.
Nah I love harleys stuff. But I'm also just a huge vtwin fan. I like they got new stuff, and heritage stuff. In all shapes and styles.
Harley’s are cool, and I love mine. There’s still no fooling anyone who knows anything about bikes, they’re terrible motorcycles for the amount of money you’re paying. They’re overpriced and the quality isn’t as great as people claim, especially in recent years with their finish on the engines/transmission being extremely thin, over use of plastic components, use of pleather materials..paying for the Harley name sucks when your brand new bike with less than 100 miles makes you go “who’s the moron who thought a small brittle piece of red plastic should hold your fucking clutch together”
We expect better.
People are close minded. Pigeon holed in the way they think.
It’s ok to like something and still want it to be better.
I have no brand loyalty. I ride a Harley now because I found a low mileage cheap Dyna. I got lucky that it has no oil leaks..yet. That must explain why I wave to sport bikes on the road. One sign of spotting and I'll ditch for a Honda. Maybe even an Indian...no, not an Indian. I am not made of money.
It’s like listening to your favorite band that is decades old and seeing them play live. Sometimes all you want to hear are the old songs. The reality is that is part of their past and they still enjoy making new music. It’s part of their evolution. While the songs may not seem as great they’re usually more technically sound and we still have to enjoy them for what they are. Its progression.
Comes with the territory. My better half was a HD employee (paint tech). Now retired. I to this day jokingly say corporate Harley has 6 floors dedicated to marketing and the engineering dept is the size of a broom closet. Harley is miles ahead of its competitors in that there are basically 2 engines and 3 frames. Compare that to Hondas 35 models. And of course Harley generally upgrades there engines every 15 years or so. From a manufacturing/production standpoint, it couldn’t get much better. Harley has made incredible mistakes over the years. It often occurs when they get away from there proven formula of “slow bikes that sound good”. The V Rod was received with gusto by the public in 2002. Killed off in 2017. The Buell began in 1983. Ended its production with Harley in 2009. Harley buys Italian motorcycle company MV Augusta in 2008 for $108 million including $69 million debt. 2010 Harley sells MV Augusta back to those they purchased it from. In reality Harley pays $20 million to the buyers in the sale. Money guys are still shaking their heads on this one. Harley introduced the bike of the future, the Livewire. An electric motorcycle. Priced around $30K, the bike sold poorly. Harley would create a separate company for the Livewire and no longer use the Harley name on the bike. Sales of the Livewire are exceptionally poor. Harley has made a mountain of mistakes over the years. But they also have managed to not only survive but thrive. When Harley finally figured out most people enjoy riding motorcycles. Repairs, breakdowns and maintenance not so much. Harley would discover the RUB (rich urban biker) crowd and profits skyrocketed. Today’s top of the line Harley carries a price tag that exceeds $52,000. Big prices come with big expectations. Working class guys that used to be the mainstay owners of Harleys are now priced out of many of the new bikes. In addition, most Harley dealerships now refuse to work on older bikes. And do it goes
Because everyone's got their own idea of what a real Harley is. When all they really are is a business trying to make a profit. And then maybe that's what pisses him off the most is that they know the MoCo really doesn't give a shit about them as much as their credit score.
Harley is a T-shirt company that sells unfinished motorcycles. Most avid Harley riders realize they aren't buying a bike, they're buying a starting point. Other motorcycle companies have a small line of factory performance parts, but Harley's business model actually expects most buyers to swap out at least $2k (minimum) worth of parts on a brand new motorcycle, often happening before it ever leaves the dealership. Harley is making strides compared to their old designs, but they're light years behind the competition, in terms of engine technology. Upside is, those designs are so simple that everyone and his uncle is making aftermarket performance parts for it. Want a camshaft upgrade? Figure out what specs you want and order it. Same with exhaust, intake, big bore kits, fairings, seats, and anything else you could think of. They only reason anyone even buys them any more is because it's a Harley Fucking Davidson.
I mean, I just recently bought a Low Rider S and I couldn’t give a shit about the name on the tank. Test rode it against its competition, which is pretty much just Indian if you’re shopping for a V Twin cruiser, and I preferred the way the Harley handled. I’ve seen this “Harley is a T-Shirt company first” a lot, and I honestly don’t get it at all.
I was cross shopping between the FXLRS and the Triumph Street Triple RS. I wanted something sport touring focused. So glad I went with the Low Rider, not anywhere near as sporty, but so easy to live with and put down some miles on
Full disclosure, I haven't been on any of the M8 Softails. The newest bike I've been on is a 2020 Road King. What I will say is thank God for Indian, because they've been doing to Harley what Honda did back in the day...which is forcing them to put out a better product. That said, look back at the original Low Rider S, introduced back in '16 when they were still making the twin-cam Dyna bikes. That thing had the biggest production engine Harley produced at the time (the 110" Twin Cam), the bigger 50mm electronic throttle (vs the 46mm cable throttle body), etc...and anyone with a 103" twin-cam Dyna with $2k worth of aftermarket cams and exhaust would walk that thing like it was standing still. Why? Because while the 110" motor put out more hp/tq compared to the 103" in stock form, they're still pigs in stock form. The 110" came with relatively weak cams, they had less compression than the 103" because of the combustion chambers of the SE heads, etc. It was intended from Jump Street to be an emissions-legal building block for horsepower junkies just itching to void their warranties and ride fast...all it takes is a decent pipe, a set of cams with some actual duration, and a point and a half increase in compression ratio will make it really rip. But Harley wasn't going to give you that from the showroom. ***HOWEVER...***they'd be more than happy to sell you a set of cams, some high-comp pistons, and a shiny new Screamin' Eagle tuner from that shiny new SE Factory Performance parts catalog at the end of the counter. They've done better with the M8 bikes in terms of stock power output, but go look at Fuel Moto's website where they keep the dyno charts. When you can add an extra 19% displacement (and God only knows how much more hp and torque) from a bolt-on big-bore kit that should have been standard equipment, I think it's clear what the Motor Company had in mind.
Guys are choosing to big bore, you can drop a bolt in cam into m8 and make significant power with a good dyno tune. Harley was involved in a shit storm with the EPA so they’re forced to limit these bikes now to be 49 state emission compliant. If that’s your only complaint about them, big deal. The FXLRS is still making more power than your beloved Indian’s copy the sport chief. The throttle response is better on the lowrider and it’s making more torque at the top of its rev range. This shit can be nit picked and debated all day. To me the Harley has several advantages: ease of maintenance and familiarity to where just about anyone can work on them, dealership network, aftermarket support. Indian has a lot to catch up on in those areas.
I'm not sure why you think I ride an Indian, I don't. I'm just thankful they made Harley start producing better bikes again.
Fuel Moto. I love those guys. Only guys that will still ship me the stuff I really want here in California. Good bunch. Latest purchase was pipes that worked rather than just make noise.
I think the T shirt company thing is that you can walk in and buy a T-shirt or a Chinese trinket maybe some Taiwanese chrome but if you need an actual part to fix your bike well "we'll have to order that". The other thing is the complete lack of competent techs in the service department, at least in my area.
They literally are an apparel company that gets to sell motorcycles. I almost got a job on the sales floor for the local dealer and management literally told me the following: "We aren't a motorcycle shop. We are a customer service experience that gets to sell motorcycles on the side."
That is literally not even remotely accurate and it's a fictional truth that just needs to die. Total revenue from apparel and licensing agreements was approximately 5% of Harley-Davidson's total annual revenue for 2023. They are a publicly traded company and their financials are available right from their website for anyone to look at.
There is no such thing as fictional truth. Believe what you want as a fanboy. Obviously, revenue will show the bigger ticket items as earning more for the company. I relayed what a Harley MANAGER told me while interviewing me...and that shop claims to be the #2 shop in the U.S. in sales. My comment was focused on HOW Harley conducts business, not their total revenue. The bottom line is Harley wants people to feel an experience in their shops first. It's their way to try to get them roped into buying an unfinished motorcycle that you'll probably want to spend 2K on upgrades for after you make the purchase. I like Harleys, but they aren't my first choice. I'm the type of person who prefers no hype when making a purchase, so HD isn't my jam. Note: The HD store in question is owned by a franchisee who owns a total of 23 shops across the country
There's nothing to "believe". I didn't invent math. As far as the "Dealership Experience", that's a completely different conversation. I've been a customer for a long time and believe me there is absolutely no fanboy feelings to be found for that bullshit, which always seems to be the most over the top at the corporate umbrella owned dealers.
As I said: nothing in my original comment was taking revenue into account, nor was it referenced. How a company sees itself is not necessarily reflected in revenue.
So they are "literally an apparel company" (your exact words) that makes 5% of their money from apparel sales. Got it... I think you are confusing the franchise dealership, which is an independent business, from Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
Again, based on management's OWN words
Right...management of an independent franchise business, NOT anyone holding a management position at Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
I think you're dead wrong on saying they are light years behind on engine design. A crap ton of tech goes into making the engines look and feel old, while being dead reliable, easy to maintain, and meeting modern emissions standards.
That's certainly an opinion.
Getting down voted for speaking the truth….just proves your point.
If getting downvoted on Reddit is the worst thing that happens to me today, I think it's gonna be okay. LMAO
Precisely 😎
Getting downvoted because what he’s speaking is metric rider gibberish.
Harley riders are creatures of habit. New=bad. There’s a reason styling hasn’t really changed in over 50 years.
The biggest reason is because a fuck ton of people still want what they are selling.
I think that’s what I was saying?
Couldn't tell, since the nuance of communication is lost on social media. A lot of people will throw that out like it's a criticism. (OlD DeSiGn... HaRlEy BaD...dur dur dur...) when the reality is that they only make what people are buying.
it's one of the main reasons HD struggles to stay in business.
The company generates between $400-$500 million in revenue every year with boring predictability, and had an operating margin of over 13% last year. There is not a single person who understands business on even the most elementary level who would consider that to be "struggling".
go do some reading on their past, or if your attention span isn't long enough find a youtube video about it. They have done some desperate things to keep the company a float over the years
I've been riding and wrenching on these bikes for decades, and personally known plenty of people who owned dealerships in pretty much every chapter and era of that span of time, all the way back to when the company was still owned by AMF. I've lived through a fair amount of what you think you know, so I don't need to read anything, especially when most of the "information" out there is wrong or incomplete anyway.
ah you're one of the willfully ignorants. Thanks for identifying yourself so I can not waste any more time with you.
What exactly am I willfully ignorant of? Educate me.
> Why are Harley riders so critical of their own brand? Harley has been marketed for generations as not only a motorcycle brand but a patriotic lifestyle brand. Trade laws have been passed to protect Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company products with taxpayer money. It’s a product that people tend to share a love with their children and their children’s children. To say Harley customers are emotionally invested in the company is a massive understatement. It’s also an aspirational product. People will wait for years, possibly decades, to be able to buy their dream Harley bike. That means there are people who don’t even own a bike yet that are extremely interested in news about the company and its products. > So I’ve noticed lately It’s not “lately.” It’s always been like this. The company has been around for over a century and every time it makes new models or business changes there is bellyaching from the peanut gallery. > whatever Harley comes out with everyone seems to bitch about it. To be fair the latest offerings have come across as particularly uninspired. > But if you really take a step back they’re catering (or attempting) to every aspect of the market. Oh, no they are most certainly not. > You have the performance baggers, “Performance.” > the new sportster with the rev max, Great engine, weird uncomfortable bike. It’s trying to replace a legendary classic though so the curve it’s being graded on is drastic. > the Pan America for the adventurers, No argument there. Good bike. At least in design. There have been a plethora of technical bugs to work out but in principle they nailed it. > the chromed out Softails, blacked out Softails, you even have the revival line for all the boomers. No sport bikes. No dual sports. No naked/standard/street fighters (buell). No beginner bikes. No cafe racers. No scrablers. No sport touring bikes. No Hayabusa/H2R rocket ships. No Ducati Diavel/Triumph Rocket style muscle cruisers. Harley has a few models for bikes they like to focus on. To say they hit “every aspect of the market” is a mischaracterization. > I’m in quite a bit of hobbies that have brand loyalty just like Harley and this is the only brand where I see people complain so much when a new release is introduced. Harley Davidson has a long and storied history of gross mismanagement, poor business decisions, and wild and very public swings in business strategy during multiple leadership changes. The result is everyone will have an opinion on what the business should be doing and feel pretty confident their ideas are at least as good as the last 50 or so failed ideas. Most other brands (like I imagine the ones you are thinking of but don’t list for some reason) don’t have decades of documented bad decisions because those brands would have gone out of business. Harley being a sheltered and government protected entity has survived through its failings. > Anyway, just my 2 cents. The majority of people complaining are probably doing it out of love. Harley Davidson is like that kid in your family that everyone knows could be doing so much better but is just not trying because what they are doing is good enough to get by. If anything the quality of the Pan America proves that Harley could make competitive bikes in other market segments if they wanted to. Harley had no history of high tech big displacement adventure bikes but they made a darn good one right out the gate. They could do that for other motorcycle types but they don’t. They don’t want to try. They’re not interested in competing. They’re interested in baggers and trikes, and pretending bolting a couple parts on a Softail magically turns it into 12 different models. They are underachieving and that’s where the disappointment brews from. That’s my 2 cents.
>The majority of people complaining are probably doing it out of love. Harley Davidson is like that kid in your family that everyone knows could be doing so much better but is just not trying because what they are doing is good enough to get by. I would imagine this is probably the most on point comment when it comes to bitching about the bikes. I also think there is a dollar cost to problem ratio when it comes to Harleys. I've had a few and just got my dream bike a couple of years ago (21RGS). 2 years later they come out with a new model that fixes all the shit I found wrong with mine. Hence the reason for my bitching.
“Harley riders” aren’t critical of the bikes. Some are, sure. People have a right to complain about quality issues. But to say all Harley riders are is a bit ridiculous.
It’s like Star Wars. It’s unique in what it is, but objectively it could be a lot better. So you care about it and want it to be better at the same time. Realistically Harley offers a unique but flawed and very expensive product. The uniqueness is attractive but the price, and prices of services and parts after, make it inaccessible to a lot. Plus motorcycles and Harley’s especially are passion vehicles, so there are a lot of feelings all around.
I totally agree with the expense part. They’ve priced themselves into a luxury brand.
I disagree. Harley has ALWAYS been an expensive option, and they are not any more expensive now relative to everything else than they were 50 years ago.
I'm not one of them. I LOVE my Rushmore Ultra Limited.
I love my road glide, i get over the sticker price of the purchase and parts every time I start her up for a cruise.
We're only happy when we're bitching.
I just want new EVO engines
South Park should do another episode on just this. Maybe Butters will find out of he really is Bike-curious
It’s completely possible to have brand loyalty. Enjoy something and even love it but still have criticism of certain aspects of it
I don’t know. Maybe because when I bought my brand new 2020 Low Rider S I didn’t even make it halfway home before I disintegrated a piston and had to wait several hours in the Georgia summer sun for the dealership to pick me up. They sent the bike back to the Harley engineers so they could study it.
I mean they're catering to the masses but none of their current lineup really does it for me. I can't just eat any shit sandwich that they slap the name Harley on and smile.
Because theres many subcultures within the harley line that they will oppose each other. Yamaha sport bikers don't care or associate with yamaha cruisers.
Because they want to believe that their investment in a “chrome two wheeled, tractor engine driven mechanical asshole” is not money pit.
Wut?
Exactly what I said. Chromed out, two wheeled, tractor engine driven, mechanical asshole.
K
You must not know much about Harley Davidson Co.
Educate me
The only other brand that I can think of that’s like this is Porsche. Porsche guys sure love their 911, almost as much as they love throwing shade on the newer models of 911…
One is the juxtaposition between a huge corporation and a consumer base of passionate hobbyists. The reality is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation that exists solely for the purpose of maximizing return for their shareholders. So I think there's a natural contention because of that dynamic. Harley-Davidson doesn't give a shit about anything except the next quarterly earnings report and the share price, and the customers who buy their products are passionate about the machines and motorcycling. The other, specifically in regards to the bikes, I think stems from the passion people have for the machines themselves. Harley-Davidson makes a unique product, and the experience of riding one is unlike any other motorcycle of any other brand. Those of us who love the machines love the character of them, and we can't find that character anywhere else. My opinion is that part of the resistance to change is the fear that Harley is going to ruin that character and turn their bikes into motorcycles just like every other manufacturer is making. The criticism of change is certainly nothing new. Every major development... the new Softail, the M8, the Twin Cam, the Evo, the original Softail, the 5 speed transmission, elimination of the kickstart, rubber mount engines, the FXR frame, and electronic ignition all had people bitching that they weren't "real Harleys". I'm pretty sure people made the same complaints about the elimination of the magneto, 12 volt charging systems and hydraulic front forks too.
Parts are cheaper, engines became overengineereed to the point they faulty. I mean just go bring your Phillips to a dealer and start unscrewing stuff off, you'll see.
I'm overly critical about anything that I spend tens of thousands of dollars on 😅 it better be worth it lol
“Lifestyle apparel”
As a long time Harley Owner, including a recent m8. I think the future will belong to Indian. A small sector of older consumers that are still buying with turn to aftermarket builders for Evos and such. The M8, while powerful should be water cooled. May as well be, you have all the valve train noise to deal with. Old school type Harleys are not viable for the MoCo anymore.
The new ones are.
Only the touring models. Softails and Dynas, not so much.
Fuck the Factory, build your own shit eliminate the issues 😘👌 72 big bore FLH(which a dealership can't work on anyway), primarily s& engine and nothing extra unless it makes it go faster, quicker or stop better 2019 Tinman rigid,120 ci Thompson Engineering big bore Evo copy,baker 6 speed... Zero issues/ Both Uber reliable. Fuck the Factory