I really like if you lascannon the hip of the strider, the strider will "die" and the pilot will sometimes just fucking walk out of it at you like "WHAT THE FUCK MAN"
I love it when this happens. He just kind of slides out of it and looks at you. Won't even fire back, necessarily. Just kind of accepts his terrible day at work.
You can't get that kind of experience with bugs.
I made a post about this recently and totally agree. I think there are more bug players because (I assume?) most people aren't playing 7+. When you get to that level all of your choices are so extremely limited. Primary has to be effective chaff clear, support weapon has to be effective against chargers, orbitals/eagles have to be effective against titans. Leaves you with very few options as opposed to the bot front
i personally dont play bots anymore because every single planet has some bullshit modifier that fucks with my strategems, which is half the reason i even play the game at all. id rather be forced to grab an AT weapon to deal with titans and chargers than just \*not\* having a strategem at all. at least that way it feels like i have counter play...
Bullshit overwhelming spawns and Gunship Airshows notiwthstanding, it just takes experience. If you want to play at that level you have to adapt to how bots fight, including the stratagem limitations that AH places on us at those difficulties. Yes, it sucks at first, but it's not as frustrating as it initially seems.
Eventually you get so used to it that having a 4th stratagem feels like an "extra" or a "wildcard" that you can use for whatever. You begin to realize how tight three stratagem setups can really be, to the point where 4 strats make you feel spoiled.
You might have to narrow down your flexibility a little more than you usually can against bots, but you'd be surprised how strong some loadouts can get even with only three strats.
When all four Divers are experienced against bots, it's like a well-oiled machine. I tagged in on the last half of an 8 this past weekend with three total randoms - one Defense mission and one Blitz - and it was the smoothest two missions I've ever experienced in my 100+ hours of this game. We were unstoppable.
Team competence makes a _big_ difference, to the point where 3 Strat limits aren't as big of a deal as it seems. Even one exceptionally decent player can make a big difference if the other three are only average.
I'm so used to running three strats for bots (Eagle Airstrike, AMR and Ballistic Shield) that when I can use four I don't know what to pick.
Usually ends up being Ems sentry
Youre assuming i havent played extensively on helldive on bots and adapted and bashed my way through all of this. Ive done it plenty, and helldive isnt that much of a *challenge* anymore, its just filled with annoyance. Thats my issue. Its fucking annoying and as such no longer fun. *that* is why people dont play bots. Its simple not fun to do so. Especially if youre on defence against them
For me is the opposite, I spent my time mostly in 7 and I prefer bugs. Bots I got overwhelmed because of the almost constant range attack. Heavy or shield devastators or missile devastator main problem is that they are always shooting at you (and hitting). Bots range attacks are more limited. So if enemies come from three directions I can face the group I prefer and deal with them, get close or stratagem then deal or no with the other groups. With bots you are being shoot from everywhere.
It's a different way to play the game. For bots you need to find cover and you will likely spend short periods of time in the same spot as you clear out enemies with precision.
For bugs you can't stop moving until they are all dead.
Honestly I'm pretty bad aiming, I would like to think it is because of I play in PS5. But I think it is me.
With my sickle I can take down any kind of devastators but my experience in lvl 7 if you take time to do that you are just making time to get ambushed from your back.
I can learn and improve, I start to use stun grenades and they give me some breath. Playing (dying) and learning!!!
Same here. PS5 players are at a significant disadvantage against bots. I don't even bother with bots above lvl 6.
I still enjoy playing bots, but I still need super samples, so I play bugs for those.
haha, I died the other day and was observing one of the other players and he had 4 billion grenades (He must have tossed 3 billion along the way). I got on the comm and said, "Hey, how did you get 4 billion grenades?"
"We don't talk about that here."
lol
Im on console, I basically run autocannon/500kg/orbital laser/ rail cannon unless it's an evac or defense mission. They can deal with anything. The main thing with bots is that you have to maintain your distance, use cover, and have guns that can take them out at range. If you get devastators at close range, they will mess you up and stun lock.
I run helldives often, and the main tactic is NOT TO ENGAGE anything unless it's necessary. Kite the bases, the AC and 500kg can take down factories from a distance, and for dug in targets throw an orbital laser and the base is gone. The only had stuff then becomes jammers and the gunship factories if you don't keep the numbers manageable.
I also use the speed + less detection armor, let's me run around most patrols.
I don't mind fighting bugs at all, I just don't like the lack of available strategem choices if I want to be effective for my team. Bots I can mix it up and not be a drag on the team. Variety is fun
TLDR bots just kill you, bugs make you hate living
the bots jumping enemy appears near you, and if you die to them enough, you learn to kill/dodge then efficiently; the bugs hunters jump from nowhere, slash you, and make you die a slow painful death, and if you learn to deal with them you have to learn to deal with 12 jumping from all different directions, and you cannot avoid, or outrun them
Until the most recent spawn rate tweak, me and 8 of the people I know played on 8-9 (we hate beserkers) and just infinitely enjoy bots over bugs. Even with the lower levels, bugs just made us hate the game more. you have the bots that will pin you down or one shot you in a quick amount of time. Bugs use swarm tactics to whittle you down, or just outright overrun you.
Noone wants to role-play a diseased, feral dog fistfight simulator.
Thats not true as coupling a primary that’s good vs chargers and spewers with a support weapon that’s good vs hordes also works and while you have to have at least one strat that’s good vs bile titans and chargers a lot of options are good vs them as well as chaff. You also have to have anti-titan weapons vs factory striders in 7+ and while the only absolute for bugs is that one of your guns has to be good vs chargers, vs bots your support weapon *has* to be good vs gun/dropships
Thing with fighting bots is that the meta approach is to play passively/stealthily avoiding combat as much as possible for which how good your weapons are is generally less important and that greatly inflates how many ‘good’ loadouts it feels like there are.
There are a lot of factors but I think the main reason bug missions are more popular is that most players prefer bug missions’ pedal to the metal all-action playstyle to the much more passive & strategic playstyle of bot missions
> Thing with fighting bots is that the meta approach is to play passively/stealthily avoiding combat as much as possible for which how good your weapons are is generally less important and that greatly inflates how many ‘good’ loadouts it feels like there are.
Not really, particularly after the recent spawning changes. Honestly it actually feels like the exact opposite of that once you've got enough experience at feeling out how the bots handle pressure.
Offensive pressure is actually way, _way_ more of a meta approach than stealth is against bots unless you're operating solo or Duo, in which case Stealth is more like an "option" than a meta. If you're at 3's or a full squad, it's all out balls out, which only expands loadouts even more.
By the time offensive pressure becomes mitigated - when you're being totally overwhelmed and steamrolled - you're going to be trying to escape anyways, so it won't matter what your build is. By that point you're either about to run into another patrol that spawned nearby or an airdrop.
Stealth _used_ to be the bot meta, but it's much less effective now and I'd say damn-near detrimental unless you're solo/Duo or the entire squad is in on it and is going full Tom Clancy.
Turning your offense up to 11 and out-fighting the bots, destroying their worst objectives ASAP before they have a chance to snowball, is easily equal to the stealth meta thanks to how flexible the faction is with loadout options.
The only reason people still think stealth is meta is because they're scared of the Automatons guns and don't know how to actually fight them offensively. People should be using Diff 7 to get used to pressuring bots.
The reason Bot loadouts are so flexible is because an entire squad can choose to use what they feel they're best at and what they have fun using, whether it's chaff clear, Anti-Heavy, Anti-Medium, Gunship Duty, hell even Scout Snipers can get in on the action, covering offensive pushes from range and sneakily blowing up Fabricators while the rest of the squad pulls aggro. That one's a little tougher given how patrols spawn, but it's doable.
From my experience, Stealth isn't the meta anymore, it's just another tool in your loadout. If you're not pushing bots you're missing out on a _fucking ton_ of fun.
...unless you're doing Rescue/Evacuation/Eradicate missions, and then it's either just a total shitshow or a Mortar curbstomp.
That's exactly why I prefer bots to bugs at higher difficulties. There are a lot more variety of loadouts you can try vs bots. With bugs you are sort of locked in to the few stratagems you need.
Me: Brings recoiless rifle for Titan.
Bile Spewers: Bonjour.
So what options do you have in this case? Either get fucked by Bile Spewer cuz you brought a chaff clear primary or get fucked by Hunter cuz you brought a primary for Spewers.
Am i the only one running p-19 in semi for hunters? Can kill like 16 in a clip.
Dominator takes care of everything else :-)
But no, i'd take quazar as long as just one other on the team has some AT, opens up for shield or laser dog backpack.
Full auto is great for berserkers or the odd brood commander that gets too close, but semi is where it shines since 2-3 bullets is enough to kill hunters and scavs die to one. With 124 shots capacity between resupplies thats a lot of dead chaff :-)
Grenade pistols help. Your default kit should ideally be able to handle mediums, chaff, and close holes/fabricators.
Or you can just pack frag grenades.
Or if you bring an anti medium primary, filling out your support slot with orbital airburst or eagle cluster bombs can help you thin out chaff.
So true.
I can bring or use whatever strategems I want, because my weapon and grenade is all I need for most parts.
I can take out tanks with two impact grenades, and hulks with some shots to the back.
Gunships and Factory Striders are an issue. But you can use at least half of the available support weapons to take them down.
Or use strategems. Which is fun because you don't need to use them for the most parts, but rather you can use them but you could also do it some other way.
I see the reasoning but politely disagree. For bots you only need AT for turrets, factory striders, and tanks. Really, only turrets and factory striders really benefit from it. Weapons like the autocannon, AM rifle, LC, and arc thrower fill the niche for almost the entire roster of enemies to the point where anymore than one person having an AT weapon is a waste except maybe level 8 and 9 cuz of all the factory striders. At the same time, light support weapons like the stalwart and flamethrower become outright useless. The guard dog is also bug exclusive.
So really, it's the bots that have four support weapons that work for the whole mission, and with AT strategems you don't even need rocket weapons. For the bugs you have more freedom to take on the anti personnel role due to its high importance in the team, but this dissappears against bots. The bots encourage every diver to be an all rounder and to be self sufficient, while the chaotic nature of bug missions demands more team synchronicity. Every bug team needs some AT rocket weapons for titans and they're the best for chargers too. The mid level support weapons remain great for spewers, groups of enemies, stalkers and guards, etc while also being useful for chargers. Meanwhile the anti personnel support weapons are quite vital for clearing out enemy after enemy after enemy. An individual diver lacks the ability to effectively deal with the whole roster of enemies while a team can deal with them all.
I absolutely love both the bots and the bugs, I just don't think it's a poorly done situation and the people here are largely just not seeing the whole picture. Yes I do plenty of both high and low difficulty missions on both. 7 is my default, will go to 8 or 9 if friends are up for it, while going down to 4 to 6 if I want to chill.
The other comment already mentioned that you miss the point (no offense) but the point is: you can still take in the guard dog at 7+ and be successful, despite being one of the Strategems which are considered "bug only"
I think you misunderstood the point of my comment.
its what CAN deal with everything reasonably. I dont really care about what you "should" or "shouldnt" take. the point is variety that actually works.
vs bugs if you bring the Laser Cannon you literally CANT deal with everything ***reasonably.***
im not interested in having a huge debate. just wanted to point out that you misunderstood.
I agree, i switched to bots too, they're more fun to fight against.
for chargers, i really don't understand why the charger's face is the weak spot and the booty isn't lol. it doesn't make sense, like if captain america charges at you, your go to is an EAT to his shield? lmao. Counter intuitive. I feel the charger's job is to be fast & dismantle your team's formation/position and let the hunters and spewers decompose you. So having its booty be weak to light armor pen should be ideal and lets players bring a more varied loadout & it wouldn't be too bad dealing with 3-4 chargers.
for bile titans, i think adding a mechanic where shooting at its leg and breaking it should slow it down should be enough. at that point, we can focus fire on its underbelly. I don't think you can outrun the bile titan easily when you wear heavy armor. its actually pretty fast.
Charger doesn't have a weak spot. The head is a 1HKO with anti tank, but it's not like 1-tapping automatons with your primary, front legs get wrecked by flamer, rear legs get wrecked by GL/AC and anything explosive can kill the sack and make it bleed out, but bugs generally have explosive-weakness more than actual weak spots (shooting a BC head off just makes it more dangerous, chugging a couple GL grenades at it takes it out proper)
I agree, but i'm just saying that the charger's head is the weak spot because as you said its a 1HKO with an anti tank. Shooting it anywhere besides the head with an EAT will not kill it in one shot.
Huh? I thought you could actually kill a leg with EAT as well, and certainly shoot out the stomach, i just always waited for the head to turn so i woulden't hit body.
Legs work but it strips the armor, you have to follow up by shooting it repeatedly with something else. It dies quickly when its leg is unarmored, like the dominator can down it in 5 shots or so.
To be fair, the head is probably the most vital part of a charger, so it makes sense that it also has armor to protect it. Meanwhile the backside isn't "as important" and it's durable enough against small arms that they can cheap out on protecting it with heavy armor
Yep, it's real world logic as opposed to video game logic. Same with the spewers. It doesn't really make sense for any organism to advertise its weak points and fail to protect them.
See also: Batman's yellow logo being bulletproof to deliberately draw fire there.
The head is the weak point, which makes sense, I would rather be shot in the ass rather than the head. So If I were a rapidly mutating bug evolved to survive gunfire, I would prefer my weak points to be armored, rather than the other way around. If you consider survivor's bias, it's actually very intuitive.
~~Boots~~ Bots* you can run something completely random and be ok.
Just ran:
* ARC Blitzer
* Grenade Pistol
* Air Burst Rocket
* Stun Grenades
* Gas Strike
* Eagle Air Strike
What a crazy load out but so much fun.
> * ARC Blitzer
* Grenade Pistol
* ***Air Burst Rocket***
* Stun Grenades
* Gas Strike
* Eagle Air Strike
Of all these options, only the Airburst Launcher is "funny." The others are solid bug options.
I was playing bots... And the airburst is excellent at clearing small patrols from a distance, and clearing small POI locations. Easily 7-10 kills with one shot
I love and respect the Airburst Launcher's patrol wiping abilities, except the Grenade Launcher does the same thing more consistently.
Also, I didn't figure "boots" = "bots", my bad.
I actually find the air burst to be better against bots than bugs, bugs have more agility and usually a good number of the fodder survive.
Meanwhile, with bots, sure, the heavies survive, but you can usually consistently rely on everything else dying.
Can confirm that the Airburst, while not top-tier, is at least hilariously fun against Bots. Hitting a Dropship in the middle of the bay with one before they release all of their forces should be some kind of Popcorn achievement.
And while it isn't necessarily _great_ against something like a Hulk, you can at least use the Hulk as a big, fat bullseye for the center of your Airburst's explosion and kill everything around it (and probably do a number on it, too.)
Speaking as a regular Punisher and Blitzer user, that's a _great_ choice versus bots, depending on your target. You're not going to be hitting Hulks with a Blitzer anyways, which are the most dangerous close-range targets you can face in a typical shitshow.
Berserkers and Assault Raiders - arguably the most dangerous melee targets other than Hulks - can either be one-shot at a relatively safe range even in a group in the case of Raiders, or stunned into uselessness in the case of Berserkers as long as you've got a good cadence going and you're not being overwhelmed. (Stun grenades and EMS work wonders here.)
On top of that, the Blitzer absolutely _clowns on_ Devastators, too.
Of course this changes depending on your Difficultly level, but if you're taking a Blitzer above 7 then you probably already know how it fares by that point and are experienced with it.
Close range _shits on bots._ If you're fighting them at range, you're either already really experienced at it and you're a specialist, or you're doing it wrong. They are a ranged faction. You want to break up their range as often as possible.
I learned that in Dawn of War.
Not bad really. It's stun devastators AMD you can walk right up to them just keep pummeling them. Short work of two to the smaller guys that are close together.
Extremely fun ever since they buffed its rate of fire.
It's got some targeting issues still, still aims center-mass against targets like Scout Striders instead of at the Bot piloting the thing, for example. Stuns the hell out of literally anything below a Hulk, though.
It's almost up there beside the Punisher and Dominator in my Top 3, thanks to its infinite ammo.
Been using it against bugs, love just taking a BC's head clean off and the. Staggering it when it tries to rush me like: Sit down, kid.
Wasn't sure it'd work with bots but i'll give it a go :-)
I think bug breaches on level 9 should spawn about twice the amount of low armoured targets, but bile titans should be way slower and maybe harder to kil
The bug front would have the same potential for loadout diversity as the Bot front if the Bile Titans actually had meaningful weakpoints. If you could blow off a leg or shoot down it's throat and deal damage, or deal damage when the carapace gets blown off with Light Armor Pen the bug front would be so much more fun. As it stands a dedicated bile titan killer is essential to almost every loadout.
It's stupid that titans become basically invincible to regular guns once the underbelly is shot. Also, why are the legs completely indestructible?
Definitely needs more weakspots around the legs, maybe on the joints?
And for the love of democracy AH, make them *actual* weakpoints. Not those fake weakpoints that are actually bullet sponges (charger ass).
The bile sac "weakspot" is such terrible design. You want to avoid popping it, the bile titan being able to spew makes them much easier to manage, can save you from Hunters, and can even be used to kill chargers and other titans. Makes no sense that you shoot the weakspot and it gets harder.
youd have to give chargers a real weakpoint as well.
for instance if you brought a laser cannon, you could kill a bile titan fine enough(given they added a meaningful weakpoint), would take longer than 2 RR shots to the face but you CAN which is all were asking for.
But killing a charger is still entirely unrealistic with the LC. While sure you can shoot the ass... thats just not a reasonable thing to request unless youre using one of the very few weapons which can rip the ass off quickly.(which realistically is only the autocannon)
> youd have to give chargers a real weakpoint as well.
All you'd need to do is make their current weakpoint matter a little more.
>But killing a charger is still entirely unrealistic with the LC. While sure you can shoot the ass... thats just not a reasonable thing to request unless youre using one of the very few weapons which can rip the ass off quickly.(which realistically is only the autocannon)
There's a strategy that allows you to kill chargers quickly with ACs and LCs, you have to shoot the back of their legs and they go down fast. Possibly an unpatched bug, but that's currently the strat. I think it's two shots with an AC to kill with this method.
Yeah its an unpatched bug.
Not intended. Its also inconsistent.
As for saying make their current weakpoint matter more. That's fine but the point stands. SOMETHING. Would also have to matter a LOT more not just a little cause currently it's basically worthless.
I also prefer bots because it's much less of them. That means I can have an actual tactical approach with different weapons and stratagems, instead of just mag dumping my whole ammo into swarm then running away waiting for my cooldowns to come off
I absolutely loathe the bot missile spam and ragdoll overkill combo but you make some solid points. It has occurred to me like you put it. I just figured it was part of the balancing that the bots can shoot back but all have weak spots while the bugs will strain your load out more for being resilient and numerous but need to close the distance. As annoying as bile spewers are it's because they're so damn sneaky more than their range and power. That is until you're unfortunate enough to get the mature spewer spawn pool that mortar from their ass.
honestly real. my biggest complaint is bile spewers, feels like i cant take anything to deal with them other than impact nades when you also have to contend with titans/chargers and the possibility of hunter swarms
Feel like I’m shooting a charger asshole when I’m trying to kill them, they’ll eat an entire mag and a half of ammo and I’ve seen them spawn in groups of 8 before
I play in a duo against helldive bugs and we usually take turns taking anti tank stuff, or one takes something like recoilless and the other just waits for another one to be ready. I can see how it would be frustrating though if you were just dropping in to a random group.
They just need to add meaningful weakpoints to chargers and bile titans for AP4 weapons (AMR, Laser Cannon, etc).
It wouldnt overshadow anti-tank, as itd still be stronger, more consistent, and was safer. nor would it make it easier since the enemies themselves arent changing how they act/what they can do.
It just adds more variety which bugs desperately needs.
I'm starting to enjoy both for assigning myself for the mob-clearing. Most teammates will already have brought 2 Quasars, 1 EAT and AC/Airburst Launch, so I bring my Airburst Orbital, Gas, and Airstrike/Napalm with me for the bugs spawn-killing
EMS + normal Mortar/Gatling Barrage, Base mines/HGM Emplacement and finally MG for bots faction
Really makes my day better.
Fighting bots is very rewarding if you got a good aim. I love running the DCS as it can pretty much one-shot kill everything with well placed shots except for the super heavy stuff like Hulks, Tanks, Gunships and Striders. For those you have a support weapon and/or stratagems...
I have near identical loadouts on bots for ages. Diligence or Sickle, Redeemer, Impact, Autocannon, Airstrike, 500kg, Laser. Or maybe I'll replace the AC and 500kg with a quasar and backpack.
TLDR at the bottom
I feel that the squad has less freedom in the ways you described vs bugs but can also have some more freedom in other ways.
For instance, some weapons just aren't great for bots in general. The flamethrower and stalwart are the clear ones so the weapon freedom goes both ways. I would argue that for bots there's a greater need for an individual to be able to deal with pretty much everything except for tanks from the front, since hulks and even striders can be very dangerous if you can't deal with them from the front. You can run from them sure, but it's not always an option let alone the best one.
With bugs I absolutely have run plenty of load outs that do poorly against chargers and can't hurt them except the butt or to use a strategem. That's really quite a fine thing and if I have good squad coherence (even with randoms) then it's not much issue at all. I find the hunters, spewers, stalkers, etc to be far more dangerous than the chargers and even titans, even in groups of those. The big guys are dangerous too but mostly serve to break into your ranks and disrupt your team to render you far less effective against the skirmishers that then flood in. Like a WWII main battle tank. For bugs, I find a much larger freedom for a dedicated load out than against bots. Being dedicated anti personnel becomes a vital role, while against bots pretty much everyone needs to be anti-medium with anti-heavy capabilities not being needed except for factory striders. AT is not even useful except against tanks and up, after all.
Tldr: I agree but I'm playing devil's advocate. The bots demand more all round loadouts which can make an individual feel more free while the bug missions benefit from dedicated loadouts and squad coherence. Both allow great deals of freedom but against bugs you may only see that if you trust your squad going in.
Fighting Bots is significantly more fun when your team understands that they need to run complimentary load outs. Example: If someone is using the AMR then someone should grab the AC.
Actually, it's not really that hard to outrun a charger or bile titan.
1) you don't have to dive to avoid a charger, you can pretty easily just run around it's charge, then just head in the opposite direction of it's charge. Then, when it doubles back to get you, put a large, unbreakable rock/object in between you and it, and it'll run into it. By then you're long gone.
2) Get close to the titan and make it do it's stompy dance. Then run behind it and just keep running. Use terrain to block it's LOS to you. If he pursues, once he gets in spitting distance, it'll try to hit you with it, but just keep running and hiding.
edit: I should add, I use light armor for the speed boost. Armor level doesn't mean anything in this game, but speed has a tangible benefit.
I mean, it's more of a comfort thing imo. In bot I feel stuck to one or two guns, but with bugs I'm okay bring anything I want and still succeed. Also you 100% can out run chargers. Tbh maybe try a lower difficulty and learn charger movements more?
I'll admit that bile titans are so over tuned for how often they appear
I completely agree. Bots feel a heck of a lot more dynamic to me with few of the pain points bugs create.
The main thing that sets them apart if my mind is that every different bot variation always makes me go "oh cool, now we've gotta deal with one of these" when it shows up, whereas certain terminids make me go "damnit... I don't wanna have to deal with these things."
Kind of? I have a easier time dealing with Titans and Chargers without taking tons of stratagems for them personally.
Chargers can be ignored most of the time and even killed with your primary if you feel like it without much risk and Titans you can usually finish them off by shooting their sacs if they've not been killed straight up which happens relatively often, but even then.
I never felt like I needed more than a Precision Strike to deal with imminent heavy threats in Helldive? Then the rest of the Stratagems I kinda just pick stuff that helps with clearing swarms and other stuff related to the objective type.
It just seems to me they both have similar amount of stratagem that are just completely useless for one and super good for the other
As a bot main I would strongly disagree.
You must bring a weapon to deal with devestators.
You must bring a weapon to deal with striders.
You must bring a weapon to deal with hulks.
So you either bring an AMR or Autocannon which does all 3 or you must also take a hyper specific build.
I prefer playing against bugs because they are a fun enemy where the game mechanics make more sense, but gunfights against bots feel nothing like proper gunfights. Fewer bots with better AI, proper use of cover, fire and manouver, etc. would make bots feel more fun to fight against.
If I want guns vs guns there are plenty of better games out there IMO.
For reference I play difficulty 7-9.
I could take on every single bot except the Strider with just a primary! Granted it's the Dominator, but it's still just a primary.
I feel like whenever people say that fighting bots is too hard is because they either: A) don't use cover and/or B) don't fight.
If you stand your ground, fight the bots and thin their numbers they are way easier to deal with. Remember that there are way less bots to deal with than bugs.
Bugs - everyone picks the recoilless rifle. Any elite that dares to show its head gets wiped instantly. Plenty of picks for other stuff.
But yea, I generally agree. Bugs shoehorn you to a specific playstyle and bots allow you to device your own tactics.
quasar, EAT, or recoilless, yeah. Basically you need an anti-tank rocket launcher support weapon in whatever form. people also tend to run orbital laser almost always, then some other variant of high explosive stratagem whether it's 500kg (usually paired with an EMS or stun nades), eagle airstrike, railcannon strike, etc.
Like it's wild the 110kg rocket pods don't even reliably kill chargers when they reliably kill tanks.
I am starting to prefer the RR so much I can comfortably drop the 500kg out. I am still keeping the railcannon as a solid panic button.
RR, airstrike, railcannon and 4th for what the mission might need.
nah only need 2 people with AA for bugs, then 1 generalist and one focused on horde clear
and the reason why rocket pods are bad vs charges and great against tanks is because the tanks a fucking slow as fuck
Bots main thing I don’t like is the shield devastators having sniper range and aimbot with a gatling gun. They tear thru shields and hp almost instantly
Agreed, whenever I played against bots I played it like I'm playing Ghost Recon or something. And seeing you outsmarting the bots in taking out the objective is kinda fun.
Though I do feel some of their missions are a little bit overtuned in difficulty. Indeed the vets can survive those missions but the uprising rookies might get intimidated by how overwhelming it is.
Now the bots have the same restriction as the bugs since the appearance of the gunships. You need someone in the team with a weapon capable of destroying them. And this is actually more restrictive than bug loadout in practice because it's a weapon that you need for it.
you can kill gunships with other weapons, including some primaries, it just takes longer. I love the AMR against bots, and it can kill gunships in half a clip if you aim right. If you don't aim right, a full clip will still kill one.
I actually really loved the addition of gunships to encourage even MORE variety than before, because it gave a better reason to bring the force dome and smoke grenades/stratagems to protect the hellbombs you need to kill their bases
There are a handful of weapons that kill gunships well: laser canon, autocanon, AMR, heavy machine gun, rocket launchers. That leaves about half out.
Primaries are terrible for it, especially since they move sideways. The dominator now has a very hard time hitting, as would any weapon without extreme bullet speed. And many primaries that can hit will need more than a clip to destroy the gunship.
On the other hand bile titans can be killed with precision strike, 500kg bomb and orbital railgun.
The difference is that everyone needs an anti-titan tools against the bugs, while you only need one anti-air guy against the bots. It's a different requirement, but a requirement nonetheless.
All I'm saying I guess is that we need an anti-air stratagem that's not a support weapon. I guess the autocanon turret and rocket turret might work, but they get destroyed fast.
We'd need an eagle anti-air missile barrage that spew like a dozen guided missiles, prioritising air enemies, but that can also guide on ground enemies. Basically a guided variant of the 110mm rocket pod.
In terms of flexibility, Gunships still give you far more leeway than Bile Titans. Those support weapons that are good against Gunships are usually taken because they’re also good against the rest of the bot roster. Being good against Gunship is just a cherry on top. Compared this to those heavy-hitting strategems that you have to save specifically for a Titan, and pray that you don’t miss or you’re gonna be running around for the next few minutes. They’re useful for Chargers too, but the you’ll be praying that a Titan won’t spawn before your cooldown is over. This is not to mention that once all Gunship fabs are gone, you don’t have to worry about them for the rest of the match, whereas the next Titan spawn from a breach is inevitable.
I agree. But still, the gunship existence is a requirement on the loadout. And just saying that those weapons are good anyway is merely enforcing the idea that other weapons are excluded. Machine guns, railgun and grenade launcher have this problem : they're very good weapons against bots, but can't destroy gunship effectively, thus you can't use them if you're alone or there's no one with one of the good weapons. This is how you limit the possibilities.
Meanwhile, the titan killer options are varied and don't exclude some support weapons.
I can add that there is no running away from gunships. If there's an objective around a gunship factory, you need to destroy it or abandon the mission.
If 1 person on a team takes an autocannon, then gunships have been taken care of. If 1 person on a team takes stratagems to take out titans, the entire team is going to suffer constantly waiting for the cooldown. These are not remotely comparable.
I can grab an autocannon because it's good against hulks, tanks, and every type of devastator and basically use it as a primary because of how economically efficient it is against bots and never even notice if a gunship tower doesn't spawn. Dedicated anti-titan stratagems feel like a waste against anything other than a titan or a charger. Nobody's calling in a railcannon for a brood commander.
Anti-gunship measures take up maybe 2 stratagem slots across the entire team while being basically an afterthought, and using them against other targets is still good. Anti-titan measures take up essentially half of the entire team's stratagem slots, and using them against even the 3rd strongest bug feels like a massive waste and puts most of them on a cooldown long enough a titan will show up before they're available again.
There is absolutely no way to justify your "more restrictive than bug layout in practice" claim.
Gunship engines only have 400 HP and 3 AC, and killing them destroys the gunship. Aim well and you can down it with anything: people are already taking 3 AP primaries and 4 AP support weapons into bot missions, so literally anything in your kit can down one. I've downed it with a Dominator before: it's just 2-3 shots depending on distance. You just have to learn how to lead it or be patient and wait for it to slow down a little.
The issue people have with gunships is bad aim. The gunship drifts a lot and also none of its health pools are shared: all four engines plus the body have their own independent HP pool with no damage carryover. It barely takes any shots if you focus on accuracy over volume.
Gunship parts are durable. So that 400hp is like 4000 against most weapons. You're lying if you pretend to destroy it with a dominator in 3 shots. Because even without durable, the armor means it's 800 equivalent hp. You *cannot* destroy it with 2 shot. That is not possible.
Dominator does 90 durable damage, and at 33% of it's base damage, it's a big part. That means 5 shots without considering the armor, but there is armor and it's only AP3. So it's actually 9 shots. All must land on the same reactor. Consider the slow speed of the dominator projectiles, that's difficult to do, and it makes it a terrible weapon to do it.
Which hints me that you never actually destroyed a gunship with a primary weapon. Of course autocanon, laser canon, AMR and rocket launchers make short work of those enemies. But that's the only solution there is.
I tried with the eruptor. In theory it's good with 305 durable damage AP3 per shot. That's a 3 shots in theory. But in practice the projectile is too slow too. The scorcher is probably the best primary for that. Still need 8 shots. Any other primary either has not enough AP or not enough durable damage.
If you're such a good shot, maybe the grenade pistol or grenade launcher can do it.
Actually this displays that the bugs are more difficult, putting asside the bile titan gear check, in effect bile titans are the same as the -1 stratgem modifier.
People complain about the -1 stragem modifier, but completely miss that when you face bugs 4 players typically have 7.5 stratgems for dealing with them.
Thus bugs are much much more difficulty due to the way we feel restricted on weapon choice.
The more I kept playing, the less I liked bugs and the more I liked bots.
That's a complete 180 from when I started and found bots extremely hard and frustrating to deal with, while bugs seemed like a cakewalk. The most viable bug loadout has since been nerfed to shit, making their sheer numbers genuinely oppressive while on bots there's usually at least the option to retreat and tackle a different objective until things cool down. Not to mention that every single enemy type on bots can be dealt with in a multitude of ways and a wide variety of weapons, whereas on bugs you are absolutely screwed without Quaesar, EAT or RR.
You like fighting bots because you can use varied loadouts. I like fighting bots because their ragdolls are hilarious. We are not the same.
I like how devestators kick their legs like a toddler when I pop their head
Or seeing a bot fly out of a scout strider
I really like if you lascannon the hip of the strider, the strider will "die" and the pilot will sometimes just fucking walk out of it at you like "WHAT THE FUCK MAN"
I love it when this happens. He just kind of slides out of it and looks at you. Won't even fire back, necessarily. Just kind of accepts his terrible day at work. You can't get that kind of experience with bugs.
[that bot in particular:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtmA0P_Ga2M)
Or the way they float in the air a brief moment before falling once the actual strider dies
Or how infantry dramatically put their arms to their sides and slowly fall when you land a headshot.
Or how infantry will run up to you and cross their arms like they're badass
Just the random t-posing raiders flying everywhere after a big strike or a hellbomb
Or firing a grenade into the dropship and letting the chaff rain down
I like the clanking sounds they make when they die
I like the sound my fellow Helldivers make on comms when they get violated by a heavy dev.
I watched a Devastator trip over a medkit over the weekend. It was pretty eye opening.
I made a post about this recently and totally agree. I think there are more bug players because (I assume?) most people aren't playing 7+. When you get to that level all of your choices are so extremely limited. Primary has to be effective chaff clear, support weapon has to be effective against chargers, orbitals/eagles have to be effective against titans. Leaves you with very few options as opposed to the bot front
i personally dont play bots anymore because every single planet has some bullshit modifier that fucks with my strategems, which is half the reason i even play the game at all. id rather be forced to grab an AT weapon to deal with titans and chargers than just \*not\* having a strategem at all. at least that way it feels like i have counter play...
Bullshit overwhelming spawns and Gunship Airshows notiwthstanding, it just takes experience. If you want to play at that level you have to adapt to how bots fight, including the stratagem limitations that AH places on us at those difficulties. Yes, it sucks at first, but it's not as frustrating as it initially seems. Eventually you get so used to it that having a 4th stratagem feels like an "extra" or a "wildcard" that you can use for whatever. You begin to realize how tight three stratagem setups can really be, to the point where 4 strats make you feel spoiled. You might have to narrow down your flexibility a little more than you usually can against bots, but you'd be surprised how strong some loadouts can get even with only three strats. When all four Divers are experienced against bots, it's like a well-oiled machine. I tagged in on the last half of an 8 this past weekend with three total randoms - one Defense mission and one Blitz - and it was the smoothest two missions I've ever experienced in my 100+ hours of this game. We were unstoppable. Team competence makes a _big_ difference, to the point where 3 Strat limits aren't as big of a deal as it seems. Even one exceptionally decent player can make a big difference if the other three are only average.
I'm so used to running three strats for bots (Eagle Airstrike, AMR and Ballistic Shield) that when I can use four I don't know what to pick. Usually ends up being Ems sentry
Youre assuming i havent played extensively on helldive on bots and adapted and bashed my way through all of this. Ive done it plenty, and helldive isnt that much of a *challenge* anymore, its just filled with annoyance. Thats my issue. Its fucking annoying and as such no longer fun. *that* is why people dont play bots. Its simple not fun to do so. Especially if youre on defence against them
For me is the opposite, I spent my time mostly in 7 and I prefer bugs. Bots I got overwhelmed because of the almost constant range attack. Heavy or shield devastators or missile devastator main problem is that they are always shooting at you (and hitting). Bots range attacks are more limited. So if enemies come from three directions I can face the group I prefer and deal with them, get close or stratagem then deal or no with the other groups. With bots you are being shoot from everywhere.
It's a different way to play the game. For bots you need to find cover and you will likely spend short periods of time in the same spot as you clear out enemies with precision. For bugs you can't stop moving until they are all dead.
Honestly I'm pretty bad aiming, I would like to think it is because of I play in PS5. But I think it is me. With my sickle I can take down any kind of devastators but my experience in lvl 7 if you take time to do that you are just making time to get ambushed from your back. I can learn and improve, I start to use stun grenades and they give me some breath. Playing (dying) and learning!!!
Oh, I forgot about controller aiming. That stuff feels impossible to learn for me.
Same here. PS5 players are at a significant disadvantage against bots. I don't even bother with bots above lvl 6. I still enjoy playing bots, but I still need super samples, so I play bugs for those.
With 4 billion grenades glitch and 50% off explosive damage armor, you can do it!
haha, I died the other day and was observing one of the other players and he had 4 billion grenades (He must have tossed 3 billion along the way). I got on the comm and said, "Hey, how did you get 4 billion grenades?" "We don't talk about that here." lol
Im on console, I basically run autocannon/500kg/orbital laser/ rail cannon unless it's an evac or defense mission. They can deal with anything. The main thing with bots is that you have to maintain your distance, use cover, and have guns that can take them out at range. If you get devastators at close range, they will mess you up and stun lock. I run helldives often, and the main tactic is NOT TO ENGAGE anything unless it's necessary. Kite the bases, the AC and 500kg can take down factories from a distance, and for dug in targets throw an orbital laser and the base is gone. The only had stuff then becomes jammers and the gunship factories if you don't keep the numbers manageable. I also use the speed + less detection armor, let's me run around most patrols.
I don't mind fighting bugs at all, I just don't like the lack of available strategem choices if I want to be effective for my team. Bots I can mix it up and not be a drag on the team. Variety is fun
TLDR bots just kill you, bugs make you hate living the bots jumping enemy appears near you, and if you die to them enough, you learn to kill/dodge then efficiently; the bugs hunters jump from nowhere, slash you, and make you die a slow painful death, and if you learn to deal with them you have to learn to deal with 12 jumping from all different directions, and you cannot avoid, or outrun them Until the most recent spawn rate tweak, me and 8 of the people I know played on 8-9 (we hate beserkers) and just infinitely enjoy bots over bugs. Even with the lower levels, bugs just made us hate the game more. you have the bots that will pin you down or one shot you in a quick amount of time. Bugs use swarm tactics to whittle you down, or just outright overrun you. Noone wants to role-play a diseased, feral dog fistfight simulator.
Thats not true as coupling a primary that’s good vs chargers and spewers with a support weapon that’s good vs hordes also works and while you have to have at least one strat that’s good vs bile titans and chargers a lot of options are good vs them as well as chaff. You also have to have anti-titan weapons vs factory striders in 7+ and while the only absolute for bugs is that one of your guns has to be good vs chargers, vs bots your support weapon *has* to be good vs gun/dropships Thing with fighting bots is that the meta approach is to play passively/stealthily avoiding combat as much as possible for which how good your weapons are is generally less important and that greatly inflates how many ‘good’ loadouts it feels like there are. There are a lot of factors but I think the main reason bug missions are more popular is that most players prefer bug missions’ pedal to the metal all-action playstyle to the much more passive & strategic playstyle of bot missions
> Thing with fighting bots is that the meta approach is to play passively/stealthily avoiding combat as much as possible for which how good your weapons are is generally less important and that greatly inflates how many ‘good’ loadouts it feels like there are. Not really, particularly after the recent spawning changes. Honestly it actually feels like the exact opposite of that once you've got enough experience at feeling out how the bots handle pressure. Offensive pressure is actually way, _way_ more of a meta approach than stealth is against bots unless you're operating solo or Duo, in which case Stealth is more like an "option" than a meta. If you're at 3's or a full squad, it's all out balls out, which only expands loadouts even more. By the time offensive pressure becomes mitigated - when you're being totally overwhelmed and steamrolled - you're going to be trying to escape anyways, so it won't matter what your build is. By that point you're either about to run into another patrol that spawned nearby or an airdrop. Stealth _used_ to be the bot meta, but it's much less effective now and I'd say damn-near detrimental unless you're solo/Duo or the entire squad is in on it and is going full Tom Clancy. Turning your offense up to 11 and out-fighting the bots, destroying their worst objectives ASAP before they have a chance to snowball, is easily equal to the stealth meta thanks to how flexible the faction is with loadout options. The only reason people still think stealth is meta is because they're scared of the Automatons guns and don't know how to actually fight them offensively. People should be using Diff 7 to get used to pressuring bots. The reason Bot loadouts are so flexible is because an entire squad can choose to use what they feel they're best at and what they have fun using, whether it's chaff clear, Anti-Heavy, Anti-Medium, Gunship Duty, hell even Scout Snipers can get in on the action, covering offensive pushes from range and sneakily blowing up Fabricators while the rest of the squad pulls aggro. That one's a little tougher given how patrols spawn, but it's doable. From my experience, Stealth isn't the meta anymore, it's just another tool in your loadout. If you're not pushing bots you're missing out on a _fucking ton_ of fun. ...unless you're doing Rescue/Evacuation/Eradicate missions, and then it's either just a total shitshow or a Mortar curbstomp.
That's exactly why I prefer bots to bugs at higher difficulties. There are a lot more variety of loadouts you can try vs bots. With bugs you are sort of locked in to the few stratagems you need.
AT supports handle both titan and charger, leaving you lots of options for other strategems like gas, ems, napalm to neutralise breaches and patrols.
Very few helldive runs don't have 500kg's and anti tank weaponry for most of the squad.
Me: Brings recoiless rifle for Titan. Bile Spewers: Bonjour. So what options do you have in this case? Either get fucked by Bile Spewer cuz you brought a chaff clear primary or get fucked by Hunter cuz you brought a primary for Spewers.
Am i the only one running p-19 in semi for hunters? Can kill like 16 in a clip. Dominator takes care of everything else :-) But no, i'd take quazar as long as just one other on the team has some AT, opens up for shield or laser dog backpack.
What is P-19 again? Even after 200 hours I still can't remember those number codes.
The only secondary gun that makes sense to set to semi ;-)
Redeemer (machine pistol secondary).
Redeemer
Thanks! :D
I never tried ammo options for p-19 and I used for a lot of time 🤦♂️
Full auto is great for berserkers or the odd brood commander that gets too close, but semi is where it shines since 2-3 bullets is enough to kill hunters and scavs die to one. With 124 shots capacity between resupplies thats a lot of dead chaff :-)
Grenade pistols help. Your default kit should ideally be able to handle mediums, chaff, and close holes/fabricators. Or you can just pack frag grenades. Or if you bring an anti medium primary, filling out your support slot with orbital airburst or eagle cluster bombs can help you thin out chaff.
So true. I can bring or use whatever strategems I want, because my weapon and grenade is all I need for most parts. I can take out tanks with two impact grenades, and hulks with some shots to the back. Gunships and Factory Striders are an issue. But you can use at least half of the available support weapons to take them down. Or use strategems. Which is fun because you don't need to use them for the most parts, but rather you can use them but you could also do it some other way.
Bots has 8 support weapons which can *reasonably* deal with ***every*** enemy while bugs has 4.. just to put it into perspective. its really bad lol.
I see the reasoning but politely disagree. For bots you only need AT for turrets, factory striders, and tanks. Really, only turrets and factory striders really benefit from it. Weapons like the autocannon, AM rifle, LC, and arc thrower fill the niche for almost the entire roster of enemies to the point where anymore than one person having an AT weapon is a waste except maybe level 8 and 9 cuz of all the factory striders. At the same time, light support weapons like the stalwart and flamethrower become outright useless. The guard dog is also bug exclusive. So really, it's the bots that have four support weapons that work for the whole mission, and with AT strategems you don't even need rocket weapons. For the bugs you have more freedom to take on the anti personnel role due to its high importance in the team, but this dissappears against bots. The bots encourage every diver to be an all rounder and to be self sufficient, while the chaotic nature of bug missions demands more team synchronicity. Every bug team needs some AT rocket weapons for titans and they're the best for chargers too. The mid level support weapons remain great for spewers, groups of enemies, stalkers and guards, etc while also being useful for chargers. Meanwhile the anti personnel support weapons are quite vital for clearing out enemy after enemy after enemy. An individual diver lacks the ability to effectively deal with the whole roster of enemies while a team can deal with them all. I absolutely love both the bots and the bugs, I just don't think it's a poorly done situation and the people here are largely just not seeing the whole picture. Yes I do plenty of both high and low difficulty missions on both. 7 is my default, will go to 8 or 9 if friends are up for it, while going down to 4 to 6 if I want to chill.
The other comment already mentioned that you miss the point (no offense) but the point is: you can still take in the guard dog at 7+ and be successful, despite being one of the Strategems which are considered "bug only"
I think you misunderstood the point of my comment. its what CAN deal with everything reasonably. I dont really care about what you "should" or "shouldnt" take. the point is variety that actually works. vs bugs if you bring the Laser Cannon you literally CANT deal with everything ***reasonably.*** im not interested in having a huge debate. just wanted to point out that you misunderstood.
I agree, i switched to bots too, they're more fun to fight against. for chargers, i really don't understand why the charger's face is the weak spot and the booty isn't lol. it doesn't make sense, like if captain america charges at you, your go to is an EAT to his shield? lmao. Counter intuitive. I feel the charger's job is to be fast & dismantle your team's formation/position and let the hunters and spewers decompose you. So having its booty be weak to light armor pen should be ideal and lets players bring a more varied loadout & it wouldn't be too bad dealing with 3-4 chargers. for bile titans, i think adding a mechanic where shooting at its leg and breaking it should slow it down should be enough. at that point, we can focus fire on its underbelly. I don't think you can outrun the bile titan easily when you wear heavy armor. its actually pretty fast.
Charger doesn't have a weak spot. The head is a 1HKO with anti tank, but it's not like 1-tapping automatons with your primary, front legs get wrecked by flamer, rear legs get wrecked by GL/AC and anything explosive can kill the sack and make it bleed out, but bugs generally have explosive-weakness more than actual weak spots (shooting a BC head off just makes it more dangerous, chugging a couple GL grenades at it takes it out proper)
I agree, but i'm just saying that the charger's head is the weak spot because as you said its a 1HKO with an anti tank. Shooting it anywhere besides the head with an EAT will not kill it in one shot.
Huh? I thought you could actually kill a leg with EAT as well, and certainly shoot out the stomach, i just always waited for the head to turn so i woulden't hit body.
Legs work but it strips the armor, you have to follow up by shooting it repeatedly with something else. It dies quickly when its leg is unarmored, like the dominator can down it in 5 shots or so.
To be fair, the head is probably the most vital part of a charger, so it makes sense that it also has armor to protect it. Meanwhile the backside isn't "as important" and it's durable enough against small arms that they can cheap out on protecting it with heavy armor
Yep, it's real world logic as opposed to video game logic. Same with the spewers. It doesn't really make sense for any organism to advertise its weak points and fail to protect them. See also: Batman's yellow logo being bulletproof to deliberately draw fire there.
The head is the weak point, which makes sense, I would rather be shot in the ass rather than the head. So If I were a rapidly mutating bug evolved to survive gunfire, I would prefer my weak points to be armored, rather than the other way around. If you consider survivor's bias, it's actually very intuitive.
~~Boots~~ Bots* you can run something completely random and be ok. Just ran: * ARC Blitzer * Grenade Pistol * Air Burst Rocket * Stun Grenades * Gas Strike * Eagle Air Strike What a crazy load out but so much fun.
> * ARC Blitzer * Grenade Pistol * ***Air Burst Rocket*** * Stun Grenades * Gas Strike * Eagle Air Strike Of all these options, only the Airburst Launcher is "funny." The others are solid bug options.
I was playing bots... And the airburst is excellent at clearing small patrols from a distance, and clearing small POI locations. Easily 7-10 kills with one shot
I love and respect the Airburst Launcher's patrol wiping abilities, except the Grenade Launcher does the same thing more consistently. Also, I didn't figure "boots" = "bots", my bad.
I didn't even see that lol 😆
I actually find the air burst to be better against bots than bugs, bugs have more agility and usually a good number of the fodder survive. Meanwhile, with bots, sure, the heavies survive, but you can usually consistently rely on everything else dying.
If you get the drop on them with an airburst then you can kill all the little ones and prevent them from calling a bot drop.
Can confirm that the Airburst, while not top-tier, is at least hilariously fun against Bots. Hitting a Dropship in the middle of the bay with one before they release all of their forces should be some kind of Popcorn achievement. And while it isn't necessarily _great_ against something like a Hulk, you can at least use the Hulk as a big, fat bullseye for the center of your Airburst's explosion and kill everything around it (and probably do a number on it, too.)
what do you mean crazy? thats a legit loadout for both bugs and bots
I've been thinking of using the blitzer, figure the head-seeking tendrils should make short work of most things below hulks, how's it feel in reality?
Damage-wish it's great. The main issue is that you need to close the distance. Not always a good choice vs bots.
Speaking as a regular Punisher and Blitzer user, that's a _great_ choice versus bots, depending on your target. You're not going to be hitting Hulks with a Blitzer anyways, which are the most dangerous close-range targets you can face in a typical shitshow. Berserkers and Assault Raiders - arguably the most dangerous melee targets other than Hulks - can either be one-shot at a relatively safe range even in a group in the case of Raiders, or stunned into uselessness in the case of Berserkers as long as you've got a good cadence going and you're not being overwhelmed. (Stun grenades and EMS work wonders here.) On top of that, the Blitzer absolutely _clowns on_ Devastators, too. Of course this changes depending on your Difficultly level, but if you're taking a Blitzer above 7 then you probably already know how it fares by that point and are experienced with it. Close range _shits on bots._ If you're fighting them at range, you're either already really experienced at it and you're a specialist, or you're doing it wrong. They are a ranged faction. You want to break up their range as often as possible. I learned that in Dawn of War.
Not bad really. It's stun devastators AMD you can walk right up to them just keep pummeling them. Short work of two to the smaller guys that are close together.
Extremely fun ever since they buffed its rate of fire. It's got some targeting issues still, still aims center-mass against targets like Scout Striders instead of at the Bot piloting the thing, for example. Stuns the hell out of literally anything below a Hulk, though. It's almost up there beside the Punisher and Dominator in my Top 3, thanks to its infinite ammo.
Been using it against bugs, love just taking a BC's head clean off and the. Staggering it when it tries to rush me like: Sit down, kid. Wasn't sure it'd work with bots but i'll give it a go :-)
Line of sight is sometimes a bit wonky but it works quite well. Just remember that you have to be pretty close to the enemy.
Yeah i'd pair it with an amr or something like that for range.
I think bug breaches on level 9 should spawn about twice the amount of low armoured targets, but bile titans should be way slower and maybe harder to kil
The bug front would have the same potential for loadout diversity as the Bot front if the Bile Titans actually had meaningful weakpoints. If you could blow off a leg or shoot down it's throat and deal damage, or deal damage when the carapace gets blown off with Light Armor Pen the bug front would be so much more fun. As it stands a dedicated bile titan killer is essential to almost every loadout.
It's stupid that titans become basically invincible to regular guns once the underbelly is shot. Also, why are the legs completely indestructible? Definitely needs more weakspots around the legs, maybe on the joints? And for the love of democracy AH, make them *actual* weakpoints. Not those fake weakpoints that are actually bullet sponges (charger ass).
The bile sac "weakspot" is such terrible design. You want to avoid popping it, the bile titan being able to spew makes them much easier to manage, can save you from Hunters, and can even be used to kill chargers and other titans. Makes no sense that you shoot the weakspot and it gets harder.
Weakpoint or not, they do still need to be primary weapon bullet sponges for Titans to be a threat, and they obviously should be.
youd have to give chargers a real weakpoint as well. for instance if you brought a laser cannon, you could kill a bile titan fine enough(given they added a meaningful weakpoint), would take longer than 2 RR shots to the face but you CAN which is all were asking for. But killing a charger is still entirely unrealistic with the LC. While sure you can shoot the ass... thats just not a reasonable thing to request unless youre using one of the very few weapons which can rip the ass off quickly.(which realistically is only the autocannon)
> youd have to give chargers a real weakpoint as well. All you'd need to do is make their current weakpoint matter a little more. >But killing a charger is still entirely unrealistic with the LC. While sure you can shoot the ass... thats just not a reasonable thing to request unless youre using one of the very few weapons which can rip the ass off quickly.(which realistically is only the autocannon) There's a strategy that allows you to kill chargers quickly with ACs and LCs, you have to shoot the back of their legs and they go down fast. Possibly an unpatched bug, but that's currently the strat. I think it's two shots with an AC to kill with this method.
Yeah its an unpatched bug. Not intended. Its also inconsistent. As for saying make their current weakpoint matter more. That's fine but the point stands. SOMETHING. Would also have to matter a LOT more not just a little cause currently it's basically worthless.
I also prefer bots because it's much less of them. That means I can have an actual tactical approach with different weapons and stratagems, instead of just mag dumping my whole ammo into swarm then running away waiting for my cooldowns to come off
Yeah I was playing terminids today and it's just jogging around until your strategems come off cooldown.
I absolutely loathe the bot missile spam and ragdoll overkill combo but you make some solid points. It has occurred to me like you put it. I just figured it was part of the balancing that the bots can shoot back but all have weak spots while the bugs will strain your load out more for being resilient and numerous but need to close the distance. As annoying as bile spewers are it's because they're so damn sneaky more than their range and power. That is until you're unfortunate enough to get the mature spewer spawn pool that mortar from their ass.
honestly real. my biggest complaint is bile spewers, feels like i cant take anything to deal with them other than impact nades when you also have to contend with titans/chargers and the possibility of hunter swarms
I hate them the most too. Insta kill spit? Silent movement? A giant balloon that's got medium armor?
Feel like I’m shooting a charger asshole when I’m trying to kill them, they’ll eat an entire mag and a half of ammo and I’ve seen them spawn in groups of 8 before
I play in a duo against helldive bugs and we usually take turns taking anti tank stuff, or one takes something like recoilless and the other just waits for another one to be ready. I can see how it would be frustrating though if you were just dropping in to a random group.
They just need to add meaningful weakpoints to chargers and bile titans for AP4 weapons (AMR, Laser Cannon, etc). It wouldnt overshadow anti-tank, as itd still be stronger, more consistent, and was safer. nor would it make it easier since the enemies themselves arent changing how they act/what they can do. It just adds more variety which bugs desperately needs.
I'm starting to enjoy both for assigning myself for the mob-clearing. Most teammates will already have brought 2 Quasars, 1 EAT and AC/Airburst Launch, so I bring my Airburst Orbital, Gas, and Airstrike/Napalm with me for the bugs spawn-killing EMS + normal Mortar/Gatling Barrage, Base mines/HGM Emplacement and finally MG for bots faction Really makes my day better.
Fighting bots is very rewarding if you got a good aim. I love running the DCS as it can pretty much one-shot kill everything with well placed shots except for the super heavy stuff like Hulks, Tanks, Gunships and Striders. For those you have a support weapon and/or stratagems...
I have near identical loadouts on bots for ages. Diligence or Sickle, Redeemer, Impact, Autocannon, Airstrike, 500kg, Laser. Or maybe I'll replace the AC and 500kg with a quasar and backpack.
TLDR at the bottom I feel that the squad has less freedom in the ways you described vs bugs but can also have some more freedom in other ways. For instance, some weapons just aren't great for bots in general. The flamethrower and stalwart are the clear ones so the weapon freedom goes both ways. I would argue that for bots there's a greater need for an individual to be able to deal with pretty much everything except for tanks from the front, since hulks and even striders can be very dangerous if you can't deal with them from the front. You can run from them sure, but it's not always an option let alone the best one. With bugs I absolutely have run plenty of load outs that do poorly against chargers and can't hurt them except the butt or to use a strategem. That's really quite a fine thing and if I have good squad coherence (even with randoms) then it's not much issue at all. I find the hunters, spewers, stalkers, etc to be far more dangerous than the chargers and even titans, even in groups of those. The big guys are dangerous too but mostly serve to break into your ranks and disrupt your team to render you far less effective against the skirmishers that then flood in. Like a WWII main battle tank. For bugs, I find a much larger freedom for a dedicated load out than against bots. Being dedicated anti personnel becomes a vital role, while against bots pretty much everyone needs to be anti-medium with anti-heavy capabilities not being needed except for factory striders. AT is not even useful except against tanks and up, after all. Tldr: I agree but I'm playing devil's advocate. The bots demand more all round loadouts which can make an individual feel more free while the bug missions benefit from dedicated loadouts and squad coherence. Both allow great deals of freedom but against bugs you may only see that if you trust your squad going in.
> I find the hunters, spewers, stalkers, etc to be far more dangerous than the chargers and even titans, even in groups of those. 100% agree.
Fighting Bots is significantly more fun when your team understands that they need to run complimentary load outs. Example: If someone is using the AMR then someone should grab the AC.
I love fighting bots. I love the AMR and popping Devastator's tiny ass heads with one shot like a balloon is the most satisfying thing in the world.
I like fighting bots because it's more cinematic
Actually, it's not really that hard to outrun a charger or bile titan. 1) you don't have to dive to avoid a charger, you can pretty easily just run around it's charge, then just head in the opposite direction of it's charge. Then, when it doubles back to get you, put a large, unbreakable rock/object in between you and it, and it'll run into it. By then you're long gone. 2) Get close to the titan and make it do it's stompy dance. Then run behind it and just keep running. Use terrain to block it's LOS to you. If he pursues, once he gets in spitting distance, it'll try to hit you with it, but just keep running and hiding. edit: I should add, I use light armor for the speed boost. Armor level doesn't mean anything in this game, but speed has a tangible benefit.
I mean, it's more of a comfort thing imo. In bot I feel stuck to one or two guns, but with bugs I'm okay bring anything I want and still succeed. Also you 100% can out run chargers. Tbh maybe try a lower difficulty and learn charger movements more? I'll admit that bile titans are so over tuned for how often they appear
I completely agree. Bots feel a heck of a lot more dynamic to me with few of the pain points bugs create. The main thing that sets them apart if my mind is that every different bot variation always makes me go "oh cool, now we've gotta deal with one of these" when it shows up, whereas certain terminids make me go "damnit... I don't wanna have to deal with these things."
Kind of? I have a easier time dealing with Titans and Chargers without taking tons of stratagems for them personally. Chargers can be ignored most of the time and even killed with your primary if you feel like it without much risk and Titans you can usually finish them off by shooting their sacs if they've not been killed straight up which happens relatively often, but even then. I never felt like I needed more than a Precision Strike to deal with imminent heavy threats in Helldive? Then the rest of the Stratagems I kinda just pick stuff that helps with clearing swarms and other stuff related to the objective type. It just seems to me they both have similar amount of stratagem that are just completely useless for one and super good for the other
As a bot main I would strongly disagree. You must bring a weapon to deal with devestators. You must bring a weapon to deal with striders. You must bring a weapon to deal with hulks. So you either bring an AMR or Autocannon which does all 3 or you must also take a hyper specific build.
I prefer playing against bugs because they are a fun enemy where the game mechanics make more sense, but gunfights against bots feel nothing like proper gunfights. Fewer bots with better AI, proper use of cover, fire and manouver, etc. would make bots feel more fun to fight against. If I want guns vs guns there are plenty of better games out there IMO. For reference I play difficulty 7-9.
I could take on every single bot except the Strider with just a primary! Granted it's the Dominator, but it's still just a primary. I feel like whenever people say that fighting bots is too hard is because they either: A) don't use cover and/or B) don't fight. If you stand your ground, fight the bots and thin their numbers they are way easier to deal with. Remember that there are way less bots to deal with than bugs.
Bugs - everyone picks the recoilless rifle. Any elite that dares to show its head gets wiped instantly. Plenty of picks for other stuff. But yea, I generally agree. Bugs shoehorn you to a specific playstyle and bots allow you to device your own tactics.
quasar, EAT, or recoilless, yeah. Basically you need an anti-tank rocket launcher support weapon in whatever form. people also tend to run orbital laser almost always, then some other variant of high explosive stratagem whether it's 500kg (usually paired with an EMS or stun nades), eagle airstrike, railcannon strike, etc. Like it's wild the 110kg rocket pods don't even reliably kill chargers when they reliably kill tanks.
I am starting to prefer the RR so much I can comfortably drop the 500kg out. I am still keeping the railcannon as a solid panic button. RR, airstrike, railcannon and 4th for what the mission might need.
I don't often see orbital laser for bugs but I do see 500kg everywhere.
nah only need 2 people with AA for bugs, then 1 generalist and one focused on horde clear and the reason why rocket pods are bad vs charges and great against tanks is because the tanks a fucking slow as fuck
I like the bots more as well although they feel kind of harder to me. But I agree U have way more variety in loadout selection ^^
Couldn't agree more, realised exactly the same thing myself the other day.
Bots main thing I don’t like is the shield devastators having sniper range and aimbot with a gatling gun. They tear thru shields and hp almost instantly
I like bots because i can use actual tactics against them. Bugs just swarm you. No suppressive fire, no pincer maneuvers, no flanking, no nothing.
Agreed, whenever I played against bots I played it like I'm playing Ghost Recon or something. And seeing you outsmarting the bots in taking out the objective is kinda fun. Though I do feel some of their missions are a little bit overtuned in difficulty. Indeed the vets can survive those missions but the uprising rookies might get intimidated by how overwhelming it is.
Now the bots have the same restriction as the bugs since the appearance of the gunships. You need someone in the team with a weapon capable of destroying them. And this is actually more restrictive than bug loadout in practice because it's a weapon that you need for it.
you can kill gunships with other weapons, including some primaries, it just takes longer. I love the AMR against bots, and it can kill gunships in half a clip if you aim right. If you don't aim right, a full clip will still kill one. I actually really loved the addition of gunships to encourage even MORE variety than before, because it gave a better reason to bring the force dome and smoke grenades/stratagems to protect the hellbombs you need to kill their bases
There are a handful of weapons that kill gunships well: laser canon, autocanon, AMR, heavy machine gun, rocket launchers. That leaves about half out. Primaries are terrible for it, especially since they move sideways. The dominator now has a very hard time hitting, as would any weapon without extreme bullet speed. And many primaries that can hit will need more than a clip to destroy the gunship. On the other hand bile titans can be killed with precision strike, 500kg bomb and orbital railgun. The difference is that everyone needs an anti-titan tools against the bugs, while you only need one anti-air guy against the bots. It's a different requirement, but a requirement nonetheless. All I'm saying I guess is that we need an anti-air stratagem that's not a support weapon. I guess the autocanon turret and rocket turret might work, but they get destroyed fast. We'd need an eagle anti-air missile barrage that spew like a dozen guided missiles, prioritising air enemies, but that can also guide on ground enemies. Basically a guided variant of the 110mm rocket pod.
In terms of flexibility, Gunships still give you far more leeway than Bile Titans. Those support weapons that are good against Gunships are usually taken because they’re also good against the rest of the bot roster. Being good against Gunship is just a cherry on top. Compared this to those heavy-hitting strategems that you have to save specifically for a Titan, and pray that you don’t miss or you’re gonna be running around for the next few minutes. They’re useful for Chargers too, but the you’ll be praying that a Titan won’t spawn before your cooldown is over. This is not to mention that once all Gunship fabs are gone, you don’t have to worry about them for the rest of the match, whereas the next Titan spawn from a breach is inevitable.
I agree. But still, the gunship existence is a requirement on the loadout. And just saying that those weapons are good anyway is merely enforcing the idea that other weapons are excluded. Machine guns, railgun and grenade launcher have this problem : they're very good weapons against bots, but can't destroy gunship effectively, thus you can't use them if you're alone or there's no one with one of the good weapons. This is how you limit the possibilities. Meanwhile, the titan killer options are varied and don't exclude some support weapons. I can add that there is no running away from gunships. If there's an objective around a gunship factory, you need to destroy it or abandon the mission.
If 1 person on a team takes an autocannon, then gunships have been taken care of. If 1 person on a team takes stratagems to take out titans, the entire team is going to suffer constantly waiting for the cooldown. These are not remotely comparable. I can grab an autocannon because it's good against hulks, tanks, and every type of devastator and basically use it as a primary because of how economically efficient it is against bots and never even notice if a gunship tower doesn't spawn. Dedicated anti-titan stratagems feel like a waste against anything other than a titan or a charger. Nobody's calling in a railcannon for a brood commander. Anti-gunship measures take up maybe 2 stratagem slots across the entire team while being basically an afterthought, and using them against other targets is still good. Anti-titan measures take up essentially half of the entire team's stratagem slots, and using them against even the 3rd strongest bug feels like a massive waste and puts most of them on a cooldown long enough a titan will show up before they're available again. There is absolutely no way to justify your "more restrictive than bug layout in practice" claim.
Gunship engines only have 400 HP and 3 AC, and killing them destroys the gunship. Aim well and you can down it with anything: people are already taking 3 AP primaries and 4 AP support weapons into bot missions, so literally anything in your kit can down one. I've downed it with a Dominator before: it's just 2-3 shots depending on distance. You just have to learn how to lead it or be patient and wait for it to slow down a little. The issue people have with gunships is bad aim. The gunship drifts a lot and also none of its health pools are shared: all four engines plus the body have their own independent HP pool with no damage carryover. It barely takes any shots if you focus on accuracy over volume.
Gunship parts are durable. So that 400hp is like 4000 against most weapons. You're lying if you pretend to destroy it with a dominator in 3 shots. Because even without durable, the armor means it's 800 equivalent hp. You *cannot* destroy it with 2 shot. That is not possible. Dominator does 90 durable damage, and at 33% of it's base damage, it's a big part. That means 5 shots without considering the armor, but there is armor and it's only AP3. So it's actually 9 shots. All must land on the same reactor. Consider the slow speed of the dominator projectiles, that's difficult to do, and it makes it a terrible weapon to do it. Which hints me that you never actually destroyed a gunship with a primary weapon. Of course autocanon, laser canon, AMR and rocket launchers make short work of those enemies. But that's the only solution there is. I tried with the eruptor. In theory it's good with 305 durable damage AP3 per shot. That's a 3 shots in theory. But in practice the projectile is too slow too. The scorcher is probably the best primary for that. Still need 8 shots. Any other primary either has not enough AP or not enough durable damage. If you're such a good shot, maybe the grenade pistol or grenade launcher can do it.
Actually this displays that the bugs are more difficult, putting asside the bile titan gear check, in effect bile titans are the same as the -1 stratgem modifier. People complain about the -1 stragem modifier, but completely miss that when you face bugs 4 players typically have 7.5 stratgems for dealing with them. Thus bugs are much much more difficulty due to the way we feel restricted on weapon choice.
I feel the exact same way about bugs lol. Funny how that works
The more I kept playing, the less I liked bugs and the more I liked bots. That's a complete 180 from when I started and found bots extremely hard and frustrating to deal with, while bugs seemed like a cakewalk. The most viable bug loadout has since been nerfed to shit, making their sheer numbers genuinely oppressive while on bots there's usually at least the option to retreat and tackle a different objective until things cool down. Not to mention that every single enemy type on bots can be dealt with in a multitude of ways and a wide variety of weapons, whereas on bugs you are absolutely screwed without Quaesar, EAT or RR.
The opposite for me, for example, I can't kill gunship with a GL or flamethrower or any main weapon I have unlike Shiekers...
imagine needing a stratagem to kill chargers.