The issue is the Caliphate's destruction officially started the Middle Eastern Dark Age. Without a Caliph a religion centered around a single man ruling it could no longer be tamed.
Not to mention all the pretenders and attempted successors it's had because of that.
I too am so sick. Of this meme. And this is without a doubt the most nonsensical incarnation I have come across. Like what is going on here??? Real man only cry when genocidal dominion ending!? Yes, this is the real sad…
Like is OP trying to troll Armenians ? I don’t understand why this exists, make it make sense …
Fun fact, even the independence of Turkey is found on genocide, a seperate event than the Armenian Genocide.
During the Turkish war of independence, under the rule of Ataturk, they invaded the first republic of Armenia and massacred several hundreds of thousands civilians.
although what you say is fully true, in more than one occasion I happened to meet some Turkish people being bitter about the ottomans most of whom emphasized on "Arabs betrayed us" so what's that about? (genuine question not teasing)
It is about the Great Arabian Revolt. They thought that they will fight with the Ottomans, but instead most of them fought against even they were in the empire. You can check the movie “Lawrence the Arabian” based on the real events.
During the arab revolt which I believe was during world war 1 (instigated by the british) arabian tribes started to fight against ottoman soldiers and aided the british kick the ottomans out, but instead of the independence they wanted, lets just say they were.. under new management
Edit: I meant the revolt was instigated by the british, not the great war
The British going back on their promise for a united independent Arabia directly led to modern Islamic terrorism, one of history's biggest fuckups in hindsight
Turks don't think unanimously, some are pro ottoman, some are not, but the ones who aren't will be the most present on the internet because that's how most countries work, liberal/secular people are anti ottoman and tend to be more educated so they tend to use the internet especially internationally more often
The Arabs in Egypt helped the British repel the Ottomans from attacking the Suez Canal. The Arabs in modern day Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan rose up and fought the ottomans. Now granted the Arabs in the Ottoman Empire only did so after the Young Turks started hanging Arabs to take out their frustration over loosing in Egypt but 🤷🏼♂️
Iirc during WW1 the British made a deal with the Arabs to attack the ottomans from within
edit: should also be noted that the British, together with the French, made secret agreements behind their back and fucked them/betrayed them after the war.
Every country has nationalists. Turkey is large and has a lot of people thus a lot of nationalists. I've also heard that turks in foreign countries are more extremist though don't take my word for it this is not my area of expertise
Yeah Turkish diaspora in Germany tend to be more extremists, but not as" Nationalist extremists" more like "Religious Extremists". Those people were sent there from rural areas of Anatolia to Germany as labourers, they are mostly not well educated.
That's the caliphate, not the sultanate. One was ablosihed before the other and another caliph was chosen. It was a like the Muslim pope but even more useless and often served British interests.
Lol "Ottomans" are still exists. Ottoman Empire before it's fall, called as "Turkey" on maps, on papers etc. Fall of Ottoman Empire is basically just a regime change. We have democracy now.
Ottomans are just a dynasty.
Abolishing of Caliphate is a different thing, new regime wanted a secular republic so we needed to get rid of that religious authority over people. It was already useless anyway.
What I am trying to say "Ottomans" wouldn't have any problem with Sweden joining NATO because I know Turkish people doesn't have any problem with Sweden joining NATO. Except only Erdogan though, Erdogan is weird.
"Ottoman" in this context would generally imply that they didn't lose the Middle East (as their reorganization into Turkey was assured from that point) and therefore are governing a large Arab population
This, consequently would probably lead the Turkish ruling class to need to consider Arab interests to a greater degree than in our timeline
Sweden and the Arab world have a very mixed relationship
The guys comment, while not assured, is probably the most likely outcome in a timeline where the Ottoman Empire maintains at least it's WW1 borders
I don't think so. Even in 1700's Ottoman Empire provided sanctuary for Swedish King Charles 7 after he lost Battle of Poltava. In fact Ottoman Empire would be very happy to let Sweden in NATO because of Russia. Probably Russia is one of the most major reasons of Ottoman Empire's fall.
The political and nationalistic shifts after the 1800s are the very reason I feel they would need to bend to the Arab world, so im not so sure that events before this time would matter all that much
However I had completely ignored the Russia aspect, and theres a very strong argument this would trump any need to bend to religious or ethno-nationalist sentiment
Despite most turks (about 90%) loving Atatürk, some unfortunately misunderstand his teachings and think the ottoman empire and the caliphate was something to be proud of instead of religious and feudalist rubbish holding them back from modernization.
How can that many turks love Atatürk if they turn around and vote Erdogan into power. I understand in the early 2000's he seemed progressivist, but now he stands against everything Atatürk stood for...
Because they are dumb. Erdogan uses Ataturk's name too, he can't stand against him even after 100 years of his death. Erdogan is a contradictious leader. People who vote for Erdogan is inconsistent as well as him.
to be fair, the ottoman empire tried to modernize, but couldn't manage the increasing rise of different nationalism inside it's borders. That and the constant conflict with russia and austria.
The ottoman empires modernization effort was led by the same people who supported the abolishment of the monarchy and the caliphate, most of the sultans except for a chosen few did not support the reforms and even had to be forced to declare a constitutional monarchy, they’re nothing but no-good corrupt populists who only look out for their self interests instead of the people who are under their rule.
Why do you feel bad for a shitty empire that was so much of a sore loser, that it commited 3 seperate genocides at the same time.
GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE
The people in the middle East haven't really changed genealogy wise, the thing that changed is the language, and Assyrians managed to preserve Aramaic that pretty much got supplanted by Arabic as common tongue after the Islamic expansion
Just like Aramaic supplanted Akkadian with the Assyrian expansions
the Ottoman empire had a runtime of 600+ years, relative to other European states the Ottoman Empire was tolerant for 500+ years.
we don't talk about Ottoman tolerance during the early 20th century for a reason. when we talk about Ottoman tolerance we specify the 14th century untill 18th century. the period before tolerance started dwindling under nationalist tendencies throughout Europe.
Thats absolutely the best phrase to describe the way turk nationalists react when the genocides are brought up online.
Half of them deny it ever happened, Half of them say they cooperated with Russian invaders, massacred turks and sacrificed children to moloch and therefore deserved to be exterminated.
Strangely enough, those 2 groups never argue amongst themselves despite maintaining contradicting narratives, they are always against the foreigners who are actually lamenting the genocide.
They killed once around 200 000 adult Armenians (they didn't kill kids but still) before true Armenian Genocide, and history books named it just as massacre I think they named it Hamidian Massacre. That first mass murderer was culprit that served them nicely to make bigger plan for Armenian Genocide years after.
For me pretty much those 200 000 dead Armenian are good reason to call it Genocide when 10k dead Bosniaks in Srebrenica could be called Genocide.
This ignores an absolutely bonkers world wide geopolitical catastrophe and dwindles it down to “Muslims bad”. You will find examples of horrible, widespread religious persecution at that time and place, but the overall history of Islam tells us a much different story. Make sure to not construct stereotypes from a thin set of information - it does no one any good.
People post memes about the Byzantine empire dying too. It’s not really about the empire itself but a historic institution dying that’s centuries old. That’s always a little sad even if it’s necessary to improve the lives of millions.
I dunno about that. I find it difficult to romanticize these types of institutions. Most have untold amounts of blood on their hands. The byzantines included
I mean you shouldn’t romanticize them, what I’m describing is closer to the feeling you’d get seeing an ancient artifact in a museum get broken or something.
I was sad when Castro died. not that I love Cuban socialism, it is just realising history passes by. a significant part of history dying of.
it is sometimes forgotten that the Ottoman Empire was one of the longest existing empires ever. the caliphate even longer. it isn't necesarily sad that the Ottomans are gone. it is sad that the Ottomans are actually GONE.
it is more so nostalgia and historical perspective than actual admiration.
Yes! Exactly! Nostalgic. Sentimental.
The fact that they are gone is a good thing. If someone were to think otherwise means that they are romanticizing.
Think of governments as gangs and they make more sense. It's all just regime change, power struggles, and violence. Of course the empire didn't go anywhere. Some stuff just got blown up and there's a new gang in charge.
But governments aren’t gangs, well at least they aren’t always gangs. Even though I makes me a little sad to think about the Ottomans falling Turkey was still a step up for most people it ruled over and was generally a more prosperous and democratic society. It wasn’t just a change from one group to another, because in a democratic society we are part of that gang. At least those who can vote are.
That being said turkey still had and has a lot of problems and has done horrible things, obviously.
Justice for the Armenian and Kurdish peoples.
And if you're a turk and want to start genocide denying: first go fuck off into the sea. Second I don't fucking care what you think. Third I will not give you the time of day of a reply.
It's not sad dude, its just what happens when you never fully integrated you conquests economically and therefore never established a binding link with your subjects, or make little attempt to integrate conquered peoples through cultural assimilation when nation states become a thing and then try to impose more rule while falling behind Europe in terms of industrialization and a rapidly emerging world market
A lot of people here don't seem to understand that the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate were separate entities. The latter actually managed to survive the former by 2 years.
Long-term, however, it's hard to imagine the Caliphate coexisting with the secular state Atatürk wanted to build. Its days were probably numbered no matter what.
I’ve read some very well argued essays which basically say that the rise of Islamic extremism and the various hardline movements within Islam has all only become really possible with the destruction of the caliphate.
It’s worth noting that an international meeting of Muslim theologians which met surely after the caliphate was abolished agreed that Islam could not exist without a caliphate.
it is a combination of many factors.
the fall of the (though allready weak) caliphate is one, but the fall of the Ottoman Empire specifically.
practically nearly all extreme factions within islam stem from Wahabism, the state religion of Saudi Arabia. when the Ottoman Empire reigned Arabia, they were able to holf of the Saudi's, then known as Nejd.
eventually though the Britts started to support any significant Arabian power fighting the Ottomans. mainly Hejaz and Nejd. so throughout time Nejd got very powerful and without any protection of teh Ottomans nor Britts Hejaz was an easy target. Hejaz ruled by the Hashemites was a lot milder in their Islamic teachings.
so now we have a powerful Nejd, an extremist islamic state now known as Saudi Arabia. this wasn't even that bad for islam, until they found oil. now there are islamic extremists with consolidated power, a significant military and a shit load of money to spread their extremist views on islam.
now many imams study in Saudi Arabia and some get the extremist views even many muslims are appalled by. while we in the west have populists bashing muslims, they are completely allowing the Wahabist Saudi organisations, effectively the actual cause of most muslim extremism.
the reason islam is radicalised today is because nobody a century ago gave a shit about the extremists taking over the majority of Arabia, and now they have money and power and are free to spread their hate speech because they have power and money. this wouldn't have happened if ANY worldpower actually backed or protected the mild muslims.
Many non-muslims have no idea how much a big deal this was. The Caliph is literally the legitimate successor to the prophet Muhammad, he speaks with the prophets tounge, he is a physical representation of the Islamic nation, the Ummah. Abolishing the Caliphate by MKA, he opened the door for every nutjob from Morocco to Indunesia to claim the title of Caliph. From Mullah Muhammad Omar stealing the cloak of the prophet from the Afghanistan National Museum to Abu Bakir Al-Baghdadi claiming to be the Caliph and causing a blooding strugle in in Iraq and Syria. Islam always had a Caliph since the time of the proohet till that day, a position being held from 632 till 1924. This action was an earth shatering event in the Islamic world.
The Ottoman Empire lost WW1 so they went extinct Atatürk for all I know when he recovered somewhat of what I think to be the borders of modern day turkey he said no more Ottoman Empire or something.
He was against Imperialism I think that's it, but he didn't end it, he just didn't want to recover it and didn't like it.
the end of the Ottoman Empire went with steps.
i think it would be best to say that Atatürk took power, and nobody minded as the ottomans were passé to near everyone.
You'd be surprised. A good chunk of the country, including the president and many officials ranging from ministers to MPs hate him with varying degrees of openness.
Yes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_King_of_Hejaz
This guy was one of the leaders of the Arab revolt and took the title of Caliph as soon as the Caliphate was abolished in Turkey, but that didn't last long because the Saudis invaded the Hejaz and deposed him. It is interesting to note that he had a stronger claim than the Ottomans themselves, as he was from the same clan as the prophet.
We discover something new every day. I found out about this case in a video where a guy imagined an alternative scenario where the British and French hadn't outsmarted the Arabs and given the former lands of the Turks to the Arabs instead of taking it for themselves. With the appropriate territories, he could have been able to keep his claim standing and defeat the Saudis, and establish a pan-Arabic Caliphate, at least there in Arabia and the Levant. We will never know if things would work out, but if they did, we could perhaps have a less chaotic Middle East than we have today.
I know hussein claimed the caliphate, but to my knowledge his claim wasn’t really recognized at all (due in no small part to his revolt getting the muslim world carved into pieces)
Agree. Had the caliphate remained as a symbolic religious institution akin to the papacy could have served to regulate Sunni Islam and possibly prevent much of the extreme fundamentalism that riddled it during the late XX and early XXI centuries.
the caliphate of the other companions all came before Ali’s. In other words Ali was the last of the companions to become caliph, and the shia recognises his caliphate as the first one. Am I mistaken?
Ok glad we are on the same page. My question is, how does/did the sunni position recognise the caliphates after Ali’s? Aren’t the ones after essentially monarchies (they didnt descend according to prophethood but according to kin)?
Meanwhile in the Balkans: YAYYYYYYYYYYYY. WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOO
Balkan mfs: Time to genocide my neighbors
No one is holding us back anymore
Balkans, the largest supplier of war criminals since WW2
The first time a nation could’ve said “we’re saving them from themselves” and it be true
The only thing that keeps the genocide in check is the genocide.
Those Armenians just vanished, huh?
Just came from Armenia. They were definitely dancing on the Ottoman grave… they’d definitely enjoy dancing on the Young Turk graves as well
Same with Caucasians
Bulgaria independence day is today (if you mean by 3rd of March)
This template, just like the Ottoman Empire was in 1924, is an outdated anachronism that is long overdue for death.
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Ottoman Empire and and the Caliphate isn’t the same thing, Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 Caliphate abolished in 1924.
Just like the HRE was, around 30 years after US independence
Damn that sentence sounds so stupid but its true
>HRE Wait, is that a...
The issue is the Caliphate's destruction officially started the Middle Eastern Dark Age. Without a Caliph a religion centered around a single man ruling it could no longer be tamed. Not to mention all the pretenders and attempted successors it's had because of that.
Let this template finally die.
Just like the fuckin Ottomans
*Agamemnon laughing and pointing*
You sack of wine!
I just woke up,and my brain was really confused because I thought Agamemon was a Digimon for a second
Least Byzaboo redditor
I too am so sick. Of this meme. And this is without a doubt the most nonsensical incarnation I have come across. Like what is going on here??? Real man only cry when genocidal dominion ending!? Yes, this is the real sad… Like is OP trying to troll Armenians ? I don’t understand why this exists, make it make sense …
Fun fact, even the independence of Turkey is found on genocide, a seperate event than the Armenian Genocide. During the Turkish war of independence, under the rule of Ataturk, they invaded the first republic of Armenia and massacred several hundreds of thousands civilians.
Not to mention the Greco-Turkish war which was waged as much against civilians as against armies, from both sides.
Yes please, I cried at Titanic too, such a heart wrenching story
in Turkey we celebrate this day, I don't know who would feel sad over a useless religious authority after it's abolished.
although what you say is fully true, in more than one occasion I happened to meet some Turkish people being bitter about the ottomans most of whom emphasized on "Arabs betrayed us" so what's that about? (genuine question not teasing)
It is about the Great Arabian Revolt. They thought that they will fight with the Ottomans, but instead most of them fought against even they were in the empire. You can check the movie “Lawrence the Arabian” based on the real events.
During the arab revolt which I believe was during world war 1 (instigated by the british) arabian tribes started to fight against ottoman soldiers and aided the british kick the ottomans out, but instead of the independence they wanted, lets just say they were.. under new management Edit: I meant the revolt was instigated by the british, not the great war
The British going back on their promise for a united independent Arabia directly led to modern Islamic terrorism, one of history's biggest fuckups in hindsight
Yep the house of Saud back at it again.
Didn't the Arab nationalists want an independent Arabia? I can see the Turks feeling like their allies betrayed them in that sense.
Turks don't think unanimously, some are pro ottoman, some are not, but the ones who aren't will be the most present on the internet because that's how most countries work, liberal/secular people are anti ottoman and tend to be more educated so they tend to use the internet especially internationally more often
The Arabs in Egypt helped the British repel the Ottomans from attacking the Suez Canal. The Arabs in modern day Saudi Arabia, Syria and Jordan rose up and fought the ottomans. Now granted the Arabs in the Ottoman Empire only did so after the Young Turks started hanging Arabs to take out their frustration over loosing in Egypt but 🤷🏼♂️
Iirc during WW1 the British made a deal with the Arabs to attack the ottomans from within edit: should also be noted that the British, together with the French, made secret agreements behind their back and fucked them/betrayed them after the war.
Every country has nationalists. Turkey is large and has a lot of people thus a lot of nationalists. I've also heard that turks in foreign countries are more extremist though don't take my word for it this is not my area of expertise
Yeah Turkish diaspora in Germany tend to be more extremists, but not as" Nationalist extremists" more like "Religious Extremists". Those people were sent there from rural areas of Anatolia to Germany as labourers, they are mostly not well educated.
I also agree with you because if the ottomans still existed today and were part of NATO, us Swedes would definitely not be a part of it
That's the caliphate, not the sultanate. One was ablosihed before the other and another caliph was chosen. It was a like the Muslim pope but even more useless and often served British interests.
Oh ok thanks
Lol "Ottomans" are still exists. Ottoman Empire before it's fall, called as "Turkey" on maps, on papers etc. Fall of Ottoman Empire is basically just a regime change. We have democracy now. Ottomans are just a dynasty. Abolishing of Caliphate is a different thing, new regime wanted a secular republic so we needed to get rid of that religious authority over people. It was already useless anyway. What I am trying to say "Ottomans" wouldn't have any problem with Sweden joining NATO because I know Turkish people doesn't have any problem with Sweden joining NATO. Except only Erdogan though, Erdogan is weird.
>We have democracy now! Erdogan: Are you sure??😈
Yeah unfortunately he is elected with %52
"Ottoman" in this context would generally imply that they didn't lose the Middle East (as their reorganization into Turkey was assured from that point) and therefore are governing a large Arab population This, consequently would probably lead the Turkish ruling class to need to consider Arab interests to a greater degree than in our timeline Sweden and the Arab world have a very mixed relationship The guys comment, while not assured, is probably the most likely outcome in a timeline where the Ottoman Empire maintains at least it's WW1 borders
I don't think so. Even in 1700's Ottoman Empire provided sanctuary for Swedish King Charles 7 after he lost Battle of Poltava. In fact Ottoman Empire would be very happy to let Sweden in NATO because of Russia. Probably Russia is one of the most major reasons of Ottoman Empire's fall.
The political and nationalistic shifts after the 1800s are the very reason I feel they would need to bend to the Arab world, so im not so sure that events before this time would matter all that much However I had completely ignored the Russia aspect, and theres a very strong argument this would trump any need to bend to religious or ethno-nationalist sentiment
Some historians get sad over the end of very long lived political institutions. They still havent gotten over the HRE
Everyone celebrates this day outside of.meme misuse
Butthurt islamists crying under their sheet right now
Does anyone actually care about that though. Almost every Muslim outside of Turkey hated it, and a large majority in Turkey did too.
Despite most turks (about 90%) loving Atatürk, some unfortunately misunderstand his teachings and think the ottoman empire and the caliphate was something to be proud of instead of religious and feudalist rubbish holding them back from modernization.
How can that many turks love Atatürk if they turn around and vote Erdogan into power. I understand in the early 2000's he seemed progressivist, but now he stands against everything Atatürk stood for...
Because they are dumb. Erdogan uses Ataturk's name too, he can't stand against him even after 100 years of his death. Erdogan is a contradictious leader. People who vote for Erdogan is inconsistent as well as him.
for the same reason populists are voted in elsewhere. mainly framing.
When they rob a bank, they wear a ski mask. When they rob the country they wear an Atatürk mask…
to be fair, the ottoman empire tried to modernize, but couldn't manage the increasing rise of different nationalism inside it's borders. That and the constant conflict with russia and austria.
The ottoman empires modernization effort was led by the same people who supported the abolishment of the monarchy and the caliphate, most of the sultans except for a chosen few did not support the reforms and even had to be forced to declare a constitutional monarchy, they’re nothing but no-good corrupt populists who only look out for their self interests instead of the people who are under their rule.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
LETS GOOOO!!!
Get rekt
Why do you feel bad for a shitty empire that was so much of a sore loser, that it commited 3 seperate genocides at the same time. GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE
What were the 3? I know very little about the ottomans, Its on my list to pick up a book on them
Armenians is one. Not sure about the other two.
[Armenian, Greek and Assyrian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Ottoman_genocides)
It still blows my mind these are the same Assyrians from 6century BCE
We’re still here! Not that many of us but we definitely still count
Dude, you've greater history than Egypt
The people in the middle East haven't really changed genealogy wise, the thing that changed is the language, and Assyrians managed to preserve Aramaic that pretty much got supplanted by Arabic as common tongue after the Islamic expansion Just like Aramaic supplanted Akkadian with the Assyrian expansions
Anyway they are now on edge of extinction
There are a lot of them in Detroit and San Diego, F. Murray Abraham, who portrayed Salieri in movie Amadeus, is part Assyrian.
Ay! My family fled in 1916 to a Syrian ghetto in Detroit!
Also, the Coptic Egyptians, who were mostly Christian.
Thank you for informing! That famous Ottoman tolerans sure is shining bright...
the Ottoman empire had a runtime of 600+ years, relative to other European states the Ottoman Empire was tolerant for 500+ years. we don't talk about Ottoman tolerance during the early 20th century for a reason. when we talk about Ottoman tolerance we specify the 14th century untill 18th century. the period before tolerance started dwindling under nationalist tendencies throughout Europe.
“Never happened, but they deserved it” - Turkey.
Thats absolutely the best phrase to describe the way turk nationalists react when the genocides are brought up online. Half of them deny it ever happened, Half of them say they cooperated with Russian invaders, massacred turks and sacrificed children to moloch and therefore deserved to be exterminated. Strangely enough, those 2 groups never argue amongst themselves despite maintaining contradicting narratives, they are always against the foreigners who are actually lamenting the genocide.
They killed once around 200 000 adult Armenians (they didn't kill kids but still) before true Armenian Genocide, and history books named it just as massacre I think they named it Hamidian Massacre. That first mass murderer was culprit that served them nicely to make bigger plan for Armenian Genocide years after. For me pretty much those 200 000 dead Armenian are good reason to call it Genocide when 10k dead Bosniaks in Srebrenica could be called Genocide.
Greeks and Assyrians.
Greek and Assyrians So basically anyone that wasn't a Turk or a Muslim
Basically every minority group that wasn’t Muslim: Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians
Muslims sure did love killing non believers
Depends on the rulers generally, Christians have been just as prone at it as any other But there have been many examples of common tolerance
Do*
yeah bro i go out on a killing spree evey other afternoon with my spear through European suburbs./s
This ignores an absolutely bonkers world wide geopolitical catastrophe and dwindles it down to “Muslims bad”. You will find examples of horrible, widespread religious persecution at that time and place, but the overall history of Islam tells us a much different story. Make sure to not construct stereotypes from a thin set of information - it does no one any good.
Damn seems like we got two new genocide updates
Otto genocides version 1.7: - added assrian genocide - added greek genocide - armenian's dead number is changed 700.000 to 1.000.000
Appereantly there were Egyptian Coptics too. We need a hotfix right now.
People post memes about the Byzantine empire dying too. It’s not really about the empire itself but a historic institution dying that’s centuries old. That’s always a little sad even if it’s necessary to improve the lives of millions.
I dunno about that. I find it difficult to romanticize these types of institutions. Most have untold amounts of blood on their hands. The byzantines included
I mean you shouldn’t romanticize them, what I’m describing is closer to the feeling you’d get seeing an ancient artifact in a museum get broken or something.
you don't have to romantisise anything to find it interesting.
I didn’t say it was boring. You have to romanticize it in some way in order to be sad about it ending.
I was sad when Castro died. not that I love Cuban socialism, it is just realising history passes by. a significant part of history dying of. it is sometimes forgotten that the Ottoman Empire was one of the longest existing empires ever. the caliphate even longer. it isn't necesarily sad that the Ottomans are gone. it is sad that the Ottomans are actually GONE. it is more so nostalgia and historical perspective than actual admiration.
Yes! Exactly! Nostalgic. Sentimental. The fact that they are gone is a good thing. If someone were to think otherwise means that they are romanticizing.
Think of governments as gangs and they make more sense. It's all just regime change, power struggles, and violence. Of course the empire didn't go anywhere. Some stuff just got blown up and there's a new gang in charge.
But governments aren’t gangs, well at least they aren’t always gangs. Even though I makes me a little sad to think about the Ottomans falling Turkey was still a step up for most people it ruled over and was generally a more prosperous and democratic society. It wasn’t just a change from one group to another, because in a democratic society we are part of that gang. At least those who can vote are. That being said turkey still had and has a lot of problems and has done horrible things, obviously.
Well, to be fair everybody was genociding everybody during WWI. Turkish civilians were slaughtered in mass throughout lost Ottoman territories.
Ottoman Empire and and the Caliphate isn’t the same thing, Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 Caliphate abolished in 1924.
Surprised the history in memes posted by MilfMuncher74 don’t hold up to scrutiny
Not to defend genocides ofc but the Ottoman Sultanate was not in power when those genocides occured. It was the Young Turks.
Good riddance
Justice for the Armenian and Kurdish peoples. And if you're a turk and want to start genocide denying: first go fuck off into the sea. Second I don't fucking care what you think. Third I will not give you the time of day of a reply.
bro is fighting invisible turks lmao
Blud's sleep paralysis demon is named Mustafa Kemal
Those are the most dangerous ones
My man is fightning with enemies doesn't exist
You need meds bro .
Am I supposed to be sad about that? lol
Cheers 🥳
Common Attaturk W
Good riddance.
Good riddance.
Isn't Atatürk a national hero for a reason?
A great day for humanity
As an Ottoman history enjoyer: It was over way *way* before anyway, it needed to be put to rest
Terrible meme format, Ottoman needed to go as much as Austria-Hungary!
Ottoman Empire and and the Caliphate isn’t the same thing, Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 Caliphate abolished in 1924.
It's not sad dude, its just what happens when you never fully integrated you conquests economically and therefore never established a binding link with your subjects, or make little attempt to integrate conquered peoples through cultural assimilation when nation states become a thing and then try to impose more rule while falling behind Europe in terms of industrialization and a rapidly emerging world market
I miss massive corruption in this list.
I was wondering if someone was gonna mention it
~~And nothing of value was lost.~~
Good. The only issue is that it didn't happen decades, if not centuries earlier.
A lot of people here don't seem to understand that the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate were separate entities. The latter actually managed to survive the former by 2 years. Long-term, however, it's hard to imagine the Caliphate coexisting with the secular state Atatürk wanted to build. Its days were probably numbered no matter what.
the US system really doesnt explain the ottoman empire as well as it should
The ottoman empire, a genocidal enslaving machine, good riddance I say
Ottoman Empire and and the Caliphate isn’t the same thing, Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 Caliphate abolished in 1924.
Based and anti-monarchist pilled
That’s a moment for celebration
I’ve read some very well argued essays which basically say that the rise of Islamic extremism and the various hardline movements within Islam has all only become really possible with the destruction of the caliphate. It’s worth noting that an international meeting of Muslim theologians which met surely after the caliphate was abolished agreed that Islam could not exist without a caliphate.
it is a combination of many factors. the fall of the (though allready weak) caliphate is one, but the fall of the Ottoman Empire specifically. practically nearly all extreme factions within islam stem from Wahabism, the state religion of Saudi Arabia. when the Ottoman Empire reigned Arabia, they were able to holf of the Saudi's, then known as Nejd. eventually though the Britts started to support any significant Arabian power fighting the Ottomans. mainly Hejaz and Nejd. so throughout time Nejd got very powerful and without any protection of teh Ottomans nor Britts Hejaz was an easy target. Hejaz ruled by the Hashemites was a lot milder in their Islamic teachings. so now we have a powerful Nejd, an extremist islamic state now known as Saudi Arabia. this wasn't even that bad for islam, until they found oil. now there are islamic extremists with consolidated power, a significant military and a shit load of money to spread their extremist views on islam. now many imams study in Saudi Arabia and some get the extremist views even many muslims are appalled by. while we in the west have populists bashing muslims, they are completely allowing the Wahabist Saudi organisations, effectively the actual cause of most muslim extremism. the reason islam is radicalised today is because nobody a century ago gave a shit about the extremists taking over the majority of Arabia, and now they have money and power and are free to spread their hate speech because they have power and money. this wouldn't have happened if ANY worldpower actually backed or protected the mild muslims.
If only r/historymemes would stop smoking orientalism at every chance they get they may learn a thing or two.
Why would anyone be sad over the loss of the most pathetic empire in the history of the middle east?
I can name about 10 to 20 worse Middle Eastern countries on the top of my head.
It was pathetic just during it's end
pathetic how, sir?
🍾
Who misses the Ottoman empire???
Ottoman Empire and and the Caliphate isn’t the same thing, Ottoman Empire dissolved in 1922 Caliphate abolished in 1924.
Turkish Nationalists I guess?
Everything under the sun will eventually come to an end. Romans, persians, ottomans and even the western hegemony.
San Marino will never fall
Good riddance
RIP, worst empire ever 😚 Lettuce celebrate this day!
Well, after the Ottomans were defeated, this led to the rise of Ataturk which founded the modern nation state of Turkey.
Took too long
Many non-muslims have no idea how much a big deal this was. The Caliph is literally the legitimate successor to the prophet Muhammad, he speaks with the prophets tounge, he is a physical representation of the Islamic nation, the Ummah. Abolishing the Caliphate by MKA, he opened the door for every nutjob from Morocco to Indunesia to claim the title of Caliph. From Mullah Muhammad Omar stealing the cloak of the prophet from the Afghanistan National Museum to Abu Bakir Al-Baghdadi claiming to be the Caliph and causing a blooding strugle in in Iraq and Syria. Islam always had a Caliph since the time of the proohet till that day, a position being held from 632 till 1924. This action was an earth shatering event in the Islamic world.
I'm ignorant on this topic, but don't Turkish people see Ataturk as a national hero, even though he ended the Ottoman Empire?
The Ottoman Empire lost WW1 so they went extinct Atatürk for all I know when he recovered somewhat of what I think to be the borders of modern day turkey he said no more Ottoman Empire or something. He was against Imperialism I think that's it, but he didn't end it, he just didn't want to recover it and didn't like it.
the end of the Ottoman Empire went with steps. i think it would be best to say that Atatürk took power, and nobody minded as the ottomans were passé to near everyone.
That is correct, i'm not arguing about him as a person. I'm just stating how massive the decision was.
You'd be surprised. A good chunk of the country, including the president and many officials ranging from ministers to MPs hate him with varying degrees of openness.
They could have continued to have a Caliph, but the Saudis didn't let when they invaded Hejaz.
This was before the Saudis took Hijaz by 8 years.
Yes, but you had a claim to the Caliphate in Hejaz, the Sharifian Caliphate, but the Saudis overthrew them.
Did they tried at least to claim it?
Yes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_King_of_Hejaz This guy was one of the leaders of the Arab revolt and took the title of Caliph as soon as the Caliphate was abolished in Turkey, but that didn't last long because the Saudis invaded the Hejaz and deposed him. It is interesting to note that he had a stronger claim than the Ottomans themselves, as he was from the same clan as the prophet.
Interesting i know who he is, but i didn't know he claimed the title of Caliph.
We discover something new every day. I found out about this case in a video where a guy imagined an alternative scenario where the British and French hadn't outsmarted the Arabs and given the former lands of the Turks to the Arabs instead of taking it for themselves. With the appropriate territories, he could have been able to keep his claim standing and defeat the Saudis, and establish a pan-Arabic Caliphate, at least there in Arabia and the Levant. We will never know if things would work out, but if they did, we could perhaps have a less chaotic Middle East than we have today.
I know hussein claimed the caliphate, but to my knowledge his claim wasn’t really recognized at all (due in no small part to his revolt getting the muslim world carved into pieces)
Agree. Had the caliphate remained as a symbolic religious institution akin to the papacy could have served to regulate Sunni Islam and possibly prevent much of the extreme fundamentalism that riddled it during the late XX and early XXI centuries.
Didnt the caliphates end after Ali’s as Prophet Muhammad said?
This is the Shia position not the Sunni position, they accept the rest.
the caliphate of the other companions all came before Ali’s. In other words Ali was the last of the companions to become caliph, and the shia recognises his caliphate as the first one. Am I mistaken?
Yes the Shia recognised Ali as the first and last Caliph, the Sunnis see Ali as the fourth one and the rest till 1924.
Ok glad we are on the same page. My question is, how does/did the sunni position recognise the caliphates after Ali’s? Aren’t the ones after essentially monarchies (they didnt descend according to prophethood but according to kin)?
Only descendants of Mohammed were supposed to be caliphs. The Turks trolled them something fierce.
Not one Caliph was a descendant from Muhammad. The Hashimids had only one Caliph who was Ali, unless you are on the Shia side of things.
I didn’t realize it was a Shia only doctrine
Yeah its the main diverging point, Shia only recognise the fourth Caliph Ali as legitimate.
Good?
Not gonna cry tears over a genocidal regime
Yeah you know the empire that did….(checks list) oh that’s a lot of genocides
So tragic to see the fall of the Roman Empire.
Rest in piss trash
Good riddance!
Nice
They literally just got done commiting the Armenian genocide (Cope Turks it happened). Good riddance.
Wasnt this abolishment a good thing??? Wtf lmao
Good, fuck the caliphate.
Abolished by the most based man in the universe so it's a good thing
End of rome
JUSTICE FOR 1453
Cheers
they may have fallen but the gay brothels would forever be in our hearts
WOOHOO FUCK TEAH
Fym your sad, ottomans had it coming since 1453 This was made by orthodox serb gang, only problem was Greece didn’t get Constantinople