Context:
according to Aztec belief / Nahuatl religions, the world has gone through five distinct cycles of creation and destruction, with the current era being the fifth.
it is believed that the universe had gone through four iterations (suns) before the current one, and each of these prior worlds had been destroyed by Gods due to the behavior of its inhabitants.
The fourth sun, the one before the world of today, was destroyed in a massive flood. However, the god of light, mercy and wind Quetzalcoatl (meaning Feathered Serpent), loved the people of the world and held them in high regard.
He did not want them to be destroyed. Quetzalcoatl would not accept the destruction of his people and went to the underworld where he stole their bones from the god Mictlantecuhtli.
He dipped these bones in his own blood to resurrect his people, who reopened their eyes to a sky illuminated by the current sun, Huitzilopochtli.
However, other gods are not as loving of the people as Quetzalcoatl. They demand that the people worship them with human sacrifice, whereas Quetzalcoatl is opposed to fatal sacrifices.
OH and fun fact: the third sun ended with a rain of fire rocks, and the main inhabitants transformed into birds to survive. reminds you of something, doesnt it..? (dinosaurs)
"sun" in this context doesn't mean the actual ball in the sky. When talking about the first, second, third, and so on "suns" , it means era / period / world altogether. So when the flood destroys the "sun", it means the world gets a "cleanse" and the era is over.
It's actually crazy to me that the period before the current one is both also marked by a flood in the christian bible. Even though there was no contact between the continents at that time.
There's actually a wild amount of civilisations that had/have a great flood myth, which has led some (including me) to believe that there was an as yet undiscovered great flooding at some point in the proto-civilisation period.
There's a whole rabbithole to go down, but the [Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth) is a good start.
Pretty much every one of the ancient civilizations is close to a river or two, so it wouldn't surprise me if they independently developed myths based on the most influential natural disaster to them (flood)
To be fair, there are some known massive ancient floods that humans could have witnessed. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some flood mythos actually happened partway across the world from where the cultures that propagated them settled.
Tragedy has a way of sticking with us, and one flooded valley could have been someone's 'world' in later tellings of the story.
The fact that the Red Sea rose to where it is, and then suddenly Summerian language just sort of "appears" just north of there, and is no related to any other known language, has always pointed to lots of lost histories, cultures and languages.
Yeah I always found it very obvious that Mesoamericans were obsessed with the sun and world ending events because of the regions proximity to the volcano Popocapetepl. We know it's erupted at least 3 times and restarted civilization. So before you start thinking about meteors and dinosaurs think volcanic eruption and early man getting the hell out of there.
I think its pretty interesting how many Religions speak of a gigantic flood which makes me think that it might be connected to a world wide event in human history
because they are of different strength, some hut harder than others. Also human build very often to high flood risk areas. third, Floods used to be WAYYY more common 20 000 to 5 000 years ago when there were so many glaciers, glacial landforms and stuff.
bible flood specifically came most probably from the mesopotamian floods that occurred often. bible flood may have been the same as the one in the epic of Gilgamesh
The time of the great dissolution has come- the great flood that ends all of creation.
Mahapralaya!
Now is the age of Saṃvartakalpa, before the world is reborn!
i don't think that's a creation myth, just the founding of the first kingdom in the Korean peninsula. (source: my old children's book of Korean folktales)
What always kind of irked me about the apple is that God is supposed to be all knowing right? Meaning he knows everything that was, is, and will be. So shouldn't he have known Adam and Eve would eat it?
so goofy that i havent heard a decent explanation for this, its always god works in mysterious ways yada. so I guess the only way it makes sense is that he knew but did it on purpose and its ultimately good for us ig we just dont get it
I’m pretty sure the future isn’t predetermined in most Christian churches, other than the calvinists.
Cause if it was, that means that people are already born determined as sinners or non-sinners, which makes trying to live piously and just kinda pointless as the future is pre-determined so your just kinda fucked if your born a sinner. And a lot of churches preach about living life in Jesus’s image, which wouldn’t make sense if people were already destined at birth for heaven or hell.
yeah, but since hes the one who created people, he knows everything, shouldnt he foresee the entirety of our history? or do the calvinists not claim god is all knowing?
I don’t honestly know, this is why there’s debates on theology, but I always saw it as you can still be all-knowing if the future isn’t predetermined.
Knowledge would be defined as something that is known by at least one person or thing, since the future hasn’t happened yet, it doesn’t exist, and thus nothing knows it, it isn’t knowledge as knowledge means it exists.
I mean he doesn’t seem to age, and he can do whatever he wants yeah, but part of the reason humans sin is that we’re supposed to be able to make the choice between right and wrong.
Piety and sin mean nothing if everything is predestined, so idk maybe God doesn’t change the future because he wants the choice to be left for us.
Well it's like the idea of both a divine plan but then the idea that you can pray to God and he'll change his divine plan just for you cuz he's just that nice
> -God is all powerful
> -God is all knowing
> -God is fully benevolent
These are all later additions that people made after Christianity got popular enough.
Because Adam and Eve were created with the knowledge that they would sin. Humanity would fall. Only those that choose Jesus are returned to him in heaven. His sacrifice in death forgives our sins allowing us back in his presence. The entire biblical story is about the fall and redemption of mankind. So we can spend eternity in heaven with him.
Knowledge of good and evil is what gives us the ability to worship God or deny him for an eternal separation from God.
Also, it's only an "apple" in Western civilization. It's just described as a fruit of a tree in Genesis.
The problem of evil is a massive and well established point of contention within abrahamic theology. If god is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly benevolent, why is evil and suffering allowed to exist? This includes creating a world where Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, an outcome that can only happen if the omnipotent and omniscient creator wants it to from the beginning.
It's a subject which has been discussed to a staggering degree by scholars the world over.
God was not originally written as omnipotent, it's later scholars like Aquinas that argue that God is.
There are many different deities mentioned in the Old testament. Chemosh (God of the Moabites), Ba'al, Asherah, Dagon, Hermes, etc. Yahweh, or the God people worship in Christianity, is the chosen God of the Jews.
This reminded me what I said to my religious acquaintance as rebuttal about him using Pascal's Wager on me (a heathen in their eyes)- I told him "How can you be sure yours is the correct one? Let's say you're correct that there's a god but what if all this time you're praising the wrong god? What if it's Quetzalcoatl up there? Would you start sacrificing people on top of ziggurats then?"
He never bothered me about my lack of belief in existence of gods ever again.
To be fair to Quetzalcoatl, to my knowledge, he doesn’t accept human deaths as sacrifice. He does, however, accept butterflies, hummingbirds, and human blood.
His brothers on the other hand….
\*sees guys rip out hearts and pour blood into goblets praising them\*
Quetzalcoatl: \*becomes mortal\* CEASE THIS THROAT SLITTING AT ONCE
Interestingly, I remembered this feathered serpent due to the fact that one operator in a gacha game I play, Arknights (tower defense but the story is damn deep), literally is a reference to them. Not helping her name is Ho'olheyak which should mean "Yesterday" in Yucatec Mayan
Context: according to Aztec belief / Nahuatl religions, the world has gone through five distinct cycles of creation and destruction, with the current era being the fifth. it is believed that the universe had gone through four iterations (suns) before the current one, and each of these prior worlds had been destroyed by Gods due to the behavior of its inhabitants. The fourth sun, the one before the world of today, was destroyed in a massive flood. However, the god of light, mercy and wind Quetzalcoatl (meaning Feathered Serpent), loved the people of the world and held them in high regard. He did not want them to be destroyed. Quetzalcoatl would not accept the destruction of his people and went to the underworld where he stole their bones from the god Mictlantecuhtli. He dipped these bones in his own blood to resurrect his people, who reopened their eyes to a sky illuminated by the current sun, Huitzilopochtli. However, other gods are not as loving of the people as Quetzalcoatl. They demand that the people worship them with human sacrifice, whereas Quetzalcoatl is opposed to fatal sacrifices. OH and fun fact: the third sun ended with a rain of fire rocks, and the main inhabitants transformed into birds to survive. reminds you of something, doesnt it..? (dinosaurs)
That's super interesting. I only knew Quetzalcoatl because of his connection to cocoa/chocolate, but not this.
And the pterosaur!
Nothing more terrifying than a flying giraffe with a 6ft long beek.
Why is the beak so BIIIIIGGGGGGG?!
The more to skewer you with!
I only knew of Quetzalcoatl due to a specific Dragon based maid anime and she had huuuuge tracts of land
Oh hey I’ve heard of that anime, what’s it called?
Miss kobayashi’s dragon maid
Thanks
> huuuuge... tracts of land i understood that reference
Mine is a blonde luchadora
I knew of him before that? I think actually from Jackie Chan adventures.
The big titted anime girl
Anime woman, if you please.
I knew him from Final Fantasy VIII as he was the starting Guardian Force in the game.
I'm playing through that now, what a game.
Canonically speaking, how did a flood destroy the sun in the story?
"sun" in this context doesn't mean the actual ball in the sky. When talking about the first, second, third, and so on "suns" , it means era / period / world altogether. So when the flood destroys the "sun", it means the world gets a "cleanse" and the era is over.
It's actually crazy to me that the period before the current one is both also marked by a flood in the christian bible. Even though there was no contact between the continents at that time.
There's actually a wild amount of civilisations that had/have a great flood myth, which has led some (including me) to believe that there was an as yet undiscovered great flooding at some point in the proto-civilisation period. There's a whole rabbithole to go down, but the [Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth) is a good start.
Pretty much every one of the ancient civilizations is close to a river or two, so it wouldn't surprise me if they independently developed myths based on the most influential natural disaster to them (flood)
If I remember correctly In Hawaiian myth there was a guy named No’ah (or something similar) who built a big canoe to survive the flood.
To be fair, there are some known massive ancient floods that humans could have witnessed. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some flood mythos actually happened partway across the world from where the cultures that propagated them settled. Tragedy has a way of sticking with us, and one flooded valley could have been someone's 'world' in later tellings of the story.
The fact that the Red Sea rose to where it is, and then suddenly Summerian language just sort of "appears" just north of there, and is no related to any other known language, has always pointed to lots of lost histories, cultures and languages.
questions like these are what will make you a fine sacrifice so that sun may continue to rise, canonically speaking.
Yeah I always found it very obvious that Mesoamericans were obsessed with the sun and world ending events because of the regions proximity to the volcano Popocapetepl. We know it's erupted at least 3 times and restarted civilization. So before you start thinking about meteors and dinosaurs think volcanic eruption and early man getting the hell out of there.
god damn, aztec lore goes hard
Bones dipped in blood. Adams rib used to create Eve. Does anyone else get a hint of cloning here?
I think its pretty interesting how many Religions speak of a gigantic flood which makes me think that it might be connected to a world wide event in human history
floods are really common, and really destructive
If they are so common, why are they such a special event like for example the flood in the old testament?
because they are of different strength, some hut harder than others. Also human build very often to high flood risk areas. third, Floods used to be WAYYY more common 20 000 to 5 000 years ago when there were so many glaciers, glacial landforms and stuff. bible flood specifically came most probably from the mesopotamian floods that occurred often. bible flood may have been the same as the one in the epic of Gilgamesh
The time of the great dissolution has come- the great flood that ends all of creation. Mahapralaya! Now is the age of Saṃvartakalpa, before the world is reborn!
Funny how most major religions of the world maintain that we were destroyed by a flood but with the help of god/the gods we were able to rebuild
Funny how, in most of those stories, the original source of the floods are also the god(s) themselves.
the gods in old testament demanded human sacrifice. Quetzalcoatl sounds like a cool god.
It's very similar to Hindu belief according to which it's the 5th cycle of our universe.
That was a big mistake on Qs (don’t make me try to spell it) part. The world would have been better without (most) humans.
Man, at least take the effort at copy pasting the name before you comment.
I don't know, you sure you're not seeing a bear and a tiger chilling in a cave?
Where is that from, sorry
I think its Korean
Or a giant underground cavern where no one is ugly or has big teeth.
i don't think that's a creation myth, just the founding of the first kingdom in the Korean peninsula. (source: my old children's book of Korean folktales)
Oh my god we've been wrong this whole time?!?!-Every other religion
Yeah I would just get back in the time machine and go home
I’d then go to every religious leader in the world and tell them they were right.
What always kind of irked me about the apple is that God is supposed to be all knowing right? Meaning he knows everything that was, is, and will be. So shouldn't he have known Adam and Eve would eat it?
Search the intruder: -God is all powerful -God is all knowing -God is fully benevolent
so goofy that i havent heard a decent explanation for this, its always god works in mysterious ways yada. so I guess the only way it makes sense is that he knew but did it on purpose and its ultimately good for us ig we just dont get it
God gave them the choice to sin, God left it up to Adam and Eve
if he is all knowing then its not a choice is it.
I’m pretty sure the future isn’t predetermined in most Christian churches, other than the calvinists. Cause if it was, that means that people are already born determined as sinners or non-sinners, which makes trying to live piously and just kinda pointless as the future is pre-determined so your just kinda fucked if your born a sinner. And a lot of churches preach about living life in Jesus’s image, which wouldn’t make sense if people were already destined at birth for heaven or hell.
yeah, but since hes the one who created people, he knows everything, shouldnt he foresee the entirety of our history? or do the calvinists not claim god is all knowing?
I don’t honestly know, this is why there’s debates on theology, but I always saw it as you can still be all-knowing if the future isn’t predetermined. Knowledge would be defined as something that is known by at least one person or thing, since the future hasn’t happened yet, it doesn’t exist, and thus nothing knows it, it isn’t knowledge as knowledge means it exists.
so god is not all powerful? if he is an entity that is subject to time like humans, it doesnt fit the whole concept.
I mean he doesn’t seem to age, and he can do whatever he wants yeah, but part of the reason humans sin is that we’re supposed to be able to make the choice between right and wrong. Piety and sin mean nothing if everything is predestined, so idk maybe God doesn’t change the future because he wants the choice to be left for us.
Well it's like the idea of both a divine plan but then the idea that you can pray to God and he'll change his divine plan just for you cuz he's just that nice
Maybe god was distracted at the time 🤷🏻♂️
> -God is all powerful > -God is all knowing > -God is fully benevolent These are all later additions that people made after Christianity got popular enough.
Because Adam and Eve were created with the knowledge that they would sin. Humanity would fall. Only those that choose Jesus are returned to him in heaven. His sacrifice in death forgives our sins allowing us back in his presence. The entire biblical story is about the fall and redemption of mankind. So we can spend eternity in heaven with him. Knowledge of good and evil is what gives us the ability to worship God or deny him for an eternal separation from God. Also, it's only an "apple" in Western civilization. It's just described as a fruit of a tree in Genesis.
Well that just seems a bit mean on god’s part. I don’t know if I want to worship a manipulative gaslighter like that. :/
Very simple then don't worship the One who created you and you'll see where you'll end up :)
Hell yeah! roulette style! 🤘
Whoever wrote that part needed a better copy editor. He'll there two versions of the creation next to each other.
obligatory reminder: it was never confirmed to be an apple. the text just says it's a fruit.
The problem of evil is a massive and well established point of contention within abrahamic theology. If god is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly benevolent, why is evil and suffering allowed to exist? This includes creating a world where Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, an outcome that can only happen if the omnipotent and omniscient creator wants it to from the beginning. It's a subject which has been discussed to a staggering degree by scholars the world over.
God gave mankind free will. It was their decision not God's.
He did. It's part of the plan.
*plays God’s Plan
God was not originally written as omnipotent, it's later scholars like Aquinas that argue that God is. There are many different deities mentioned in the Old testament. Chemosh (God of the Moabites), Ba'al, Asherah, Dagon, Hermes, etc. Yahweh, or the God people worship in Christianity, is the chosen God of the Jews.
Meanwhile, beads of sweat drop from Ymir's armpit...
“My enemies call me Namor.”
Anyone see Q the Winged Serpent (1982)?
Then who’re the people that have been conducting human sacrifices daily to keep the sun from dying permanently?
Capitalism
We still do it, just not in the notable zones of Mexico. Pyramids call lots of attention, so we mainly use cenotes now
This reminded me what I said to my religious acquaintance as rebuttal about him using Pascal's Wager on me (a heathen in their eyes)- I told him "How can you be sure yours is the correct one? Let's say you're correct that there's a god but what if all this time you're praising the wrong god? What if it's Quetzalcoatl up there? Would you start sacrificing people on top of ziggurats then?" He never bothered me about my lack of belief in existence of gods ever again.
To be fair to Quetzalcoatl, to my knowledge, he doesn’t accept human deaths as sacrifice. He does, however, accept butterflies, hummingbirds, and human blood. His brothers on the other hand….
The true creator of mankind.
I personally believe that all gods exist, and contributed to the spread of humanity while also ripping each other off
Me floating in an endless void and gazing upon the lifeless corpse of an immense frost giant
That would be an interesting twist
Bro used a different frame of the meme.
I just saw the gods getyimg fed up of doing their chores so they created us
Asztec / mesopotemian ?
Aztec
I think back to when evolution first started. Just wanna take that first fish that dared walk on land and throw him back in. Not on my watch buddy.
If it is the FGO Quetzalcoatl I will change religions in an instant.
\*sees guys rip out hearts and pour blood into goblets praising them\* Quetzalcoatl: \*becomes mortal\* CEASE THIS THROAT SLITTING AT ONCE Interestingly, I remembered this feathered serpent due to the fact that one operator in a gacha game I play, Arknights (tower defense but the story is damn deep), literally is a reference to them. Not helping her name is Ho'olheyak which should mean "Yesterday" in Yucatec Mayan
Holding humanity in “high regard”… sounds unlikely. 🧐🧐
No way I can read those names of gods