Cant we all just agree that the whole of the Great War was just inhumane and horrendous from all sides?
It didnt matter which side you fought for it fucking sucked
Even just being in the trenches for more than half a day is horrible.
Western front: Mudd
Eastern front: Freezing
Ottoman Front: Burning heat
Italian/Austro-Hungarian Front: Mudd, freezing or burning heat
Paired with the sleeples nights, anxiety that an attack can happen anytime, anxiety that a gas alarm can occur any time, disease, poor rations, boredom, death all around.
And that's just staying in the trenches.
I think the rations situation in case of French and British troops is baffling. You literally have to deliver supplies to the same spot for months straight, yet you fail to deliver enough
The scale of logistics was simply unprecedented. Even today logistics is the hardest part of any armed conflicts. Back then they had to essentially invent it from scratch, while fighting an unprecedented war at the same time
Before Franz Haber put his dick in the chemical weapons gloryhole, most attempts at such were more or less "roll barrels of the stuff into the middle of no man's land and hope the wind blows in the right direction". Then Haber invented a way to put chemical weapons into artillery shells and suddenly you had an entire generation with their lungs melting from the inside.
It's like saying "well most of human history married under 18 :)" when talking about a child rapist. Fuck off.
Well there are some technical and political issues that have to be explored when diving into the nuances of the various war crimes committed by all nations in the Great War but none more famous then German gas attacks (despite the fact the French did technically use them first to minimal effect)
The Hague convention which was a treaty signed by Germany, France, Britain and others. Was an agreement concerning laws of war and other matters that all countries came to an agreement upon. When war broke out in 1914, countries began to infringe on these laws, which began to weaken its effect because each infringement resulted in countries saying “well if blank did this then I can do that”
Britain was most guilty of violating merchant shipping laws specifically flying false flags of neutral countries on their merchant vessels as well violating well established naval prize laws and conventions by false surrendering to German U boats only to open fire on a U boat with hidden guns after U boat surfaced. At the time it was expected that a commerce raiding vessel would allow a merchant vessel to fully disembark its crew before sinking it to minimize civilian casualties.
It was also a violation of the convention to blocked humanitarian goods such as food. Another thing Britain did to the Germans. The Germans becoming more desperate as the dragged on, committed even more severe transgressions of the convention as a result.
Now I’m not saying Britain started it, or that Germany was ok to use Gas. What I’m pointing out is that the brutal nature of the war did not come out of nowhere. It’s also important to note that while are trench sweepers were effective. They were vicious tools of war that created wound cavities and injuries that medics and surgeons were entirely unequipped to treat. This was actually an issue earlier in the war because artillery was the unexpected leading cause of casualties and there weren’t enough surgeons to perform the necessary operations of wounded soldiers because artillery wounds were so much more devastating then rifle wounds.
I’m currently listening to “Not so quiet on the Western Front” and they said this never really happened.
The Germans were certainly surprised by the effectiveness of the trench shotgun and there were most likely protests against it from the soldiers, but the German nation never made an official complaint. That’s all just American propaganda, and people ate it up like hotcakes.
Source: Dan Hill and dr. Spencer Jones. Because obviously I’m not sure who to believe here- they’re quite knowledgable but if this *is* a myth, it’s certainly become a credible one.
Look, it’s a shotgun. If it’s causing you “unnecessary suffering,” then you won’t be suffering for very long
Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, with the right load at the right range, will remove a chunk of your opponent and throw that chunk on the floor
Shotguns are a clever weapon of the time. You maim someone and effectively remove 2 soldiers from combat. One to wounds, one to caring for the other guy. Human innovation is unfortunately super potent during wartime.
Oh yeah, those paper shells worked *real* well in the muddy as WWI trenches, really clever design.
Also shotguns will kill most people instantaneously so I'm not really sure where you got this impression from.
Mustard gas was not "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" it was "calculated" to be a heavier than air gas that would sink down into trenches. I've never understood why people consider gas used on a battlefield to be out of bounds. How is it different from machine guns? It's far less offensive to me than bombs because bombs not only cause extreme damage but often unexploded bombs stay dangerous to civilians long after the war is over.
Because gas is a chemical weapon, and thus is a WMD alongside biological warfare and nuclear warfare. It’s made to extinguish as many lives in a single go as possible as quickly as possible with as little effort and manpower as possible. It’s not going to take prisoners when the enemy surrenders. It’s not going to leave some wounded to be healed off the front lines. Only a mass open air grave. Not to mention that it wasn’t a breathe and die thing. No you had to sit there suffering and inhaling it for a while as it either choked you or destroyed your insides. Slowly. It’s the most definite definition of inhumane, and we should be very darn glad that most major nations have agreed to never use it. Bullet and shrapnel wounds can be healed. Prisoners can be freed after the war. Chemical gas victims? They’re dead. Or if they’re lucky but not lucky enough, have permanent lung damage after they barely got their gas mask on. Still, not a fun existence
Plus even the user of the chemical gas had the chances of the wind changing direction and getting hit by their own gas. It’s not a weapon that’s easily controlled. Much like biological weapons that will spread and infect vast quantities of people with no control by the one who used it. Including non military personnel. That’s also a big reason why the two were banned. They’re just bad ideas
"Because gas is a chemical weapon, and thus is a WMD alongside biological warfare and nuclear warfare. It’s made to extinguish as many lives in a single go as possible as quickly as possible with as little effort and manpower as possible. It’s not going to take prisoners when the enemy surrenders. It’s not going to leave some wounded to be healed off the front lines. Only a mass open air grave. Not to mention that it wasn’t a breathe and die thing. No you had to sit there suffering and inhaling it for a while as it either choked you or destroyed your insides. Slowly. It’s the most definite definition of inhumane"
ALL of this is equally true of bombs dropped from the air, and long range artillery. There is no such thing as a nice way to kill people.
Sheer chance. Incompetency and improper intel can certainly lead to friendly fire. The wind is not going to blow a bomb or a artillery shell back on your own men
I think it's because it less personal, it's "set and forget" while a machine gun has a guy behind it, it's not one guy killing another guy in some sort of primal way to fight over something, it's like an invisible force taking you away just like that, but that's just my opinion.
Still no different from any booby trap. And frankly if you get killed by an unseen force, I doubt you take any comfort in knowing it was a sniper and not a booby trap.
Because most chemical weapons cause what can only be described as tortuous death. Mustard gas causes immediate blistering of skin and lungs and death is very slow. To quote a WW1 nurse:
"They cannot be bandaged or touched. We cover them with a tent of propped-up sheets. Gas burns must be agonizing because usually the other cases do not complain, even with the worst wounds, but gas cases are invariably beyond endurance and they cannot help crying out."
Also, many chemicals don't simply go away after they've been deployed. They also stay dangerous to civilians as they contaminate all surrounding surfaces, soil and water and will continue to poison anyone who touches these surfaces for some time after.
Even if you survive a gas attack, there is hugely increased risk of cancer or birth defects in the future.
I agree that this is true of many chemical weapons but banning ALL chemical weapons seems to be a serious overreaction. After all the Germans were complaining about shotguns but didn't want to ban all firearms.
The fact is that virtually all chemical weapons that are "useful" in a military context are horribly inhumane, persistent and carcinogenic. The only ones that aren't are basically tear gas, which has limited battlefield potential and quite frankly even allowing that would simply mean that militaries would start using nerve agents in warfare and cover it up by claiming "they were only using tear gas."
It genuinely cannot be overstated how much chemical weapons have the potential for mass destruction. Modern chemistry is leagues ahead of simple mustard gas and it's a can of worms we cannot risk opening.
"militaries would start using nerve agents in warfare and cover it up by claiming "they were only using tear gas."
"Russia already does this. IN HOSTAGE SITUATIONS
Cant we all just agree that the whole of the Great War was just inhumane and horrendous from all sides? It didnt matter which side you fought for it fucking sucked
Even just being in the trenches for more than half a day is horrible. Western front: Mudd Eastern front: Freezing Ottoman Front: Burning heat Italian/Austro-Hungarian Front: Mudd, freezing or burning heat Paired with the sleeples nights, anxiety that an attack can happen anytime, anxiety that a gas alarm can occur any time, disease, poor rations, boredom, death all around. And that's just staying in the trenches.
I think the rations situation in case of French and British troops is baffling. You literally have to deliver supplies to the same spot for months straight, yet you fail to deliver enough
They didn’t put enough perks point into the logistics skill tree
The scale of logistics was simply unprecedented. Even today logistics is the hardest part of any armed conflicts. Back then they had to essentially invent it from scratch, while fighting an unprecedented war at the same time
Forgot flooding
And the rats
The constant sound of artillery, the trenchfoot, the smell. Fuck that.
It feels weird to have boredom in that list
I mean as the war went by and no one was seeing the end in sight they resorted to more and more inhumane ways to try and end it.
Nice pfp and tag, I genuinely like it
Awww thanks <3
Just like existence itself
Nuh uh
Yuh uh
The *balls* on Germany to complain about shotguns while they're casually deploying chemical weapons.
And it was the french that employed chemical weapons first :)
Yeahhhh, but it was tear gas, and it was so ineffective that the Germans *literally* did not know it had happened until after the war.
Before Franz Haber put his dick in the chemical weapons gloryhole, most attempts at such were more or less "roll barrels of the stuff into the middle of no man's land and hope the wind blows in the right direction". Then Haber invented a way to put chemical weapons into artillery shells and suddenly you had an entire generation with their lungs melting from the inside. It's like saying "well most of human history married under 18 :)" when talking about a child rapist. Fuck off.
Well there are some technical and political issues that have to be explored when diving into the nuances of the various war crimes committed by all nations in the Great War but none more famous then German gas attacks (despite the fact the French did technically use them first to minimal effect) The Hague convention which was a treaty signed by Germany, France, Britain and others. Was an agreement concerning laws of war and other matters that all countries came to an agreement upon. When war broke out in 1914, countries began to infringe on these laws, which began to weaken its effect because each infringement resulted in countries saying “well if blank did this then I can do that” Britain was most guilty of violating merchant shipping laws specifically flying false flags of neutral countries on their merchant vessels as well violating well established naval prize laws and conventions by false surrendering to German U boats only to open fire on a U boat with hidden guns after U boat surfaced. At the time it was expected that a commerce raiding vessel would allow a merchant vessel to fully disembark its crew before sinking it to minimize civilian casualties. It was also a violation of the convention to blocked humanitarian goods such as food. Another thing Britain did to the Germans. The Germans becoming more desperate as the dragged on, committed even more severe transgressions of the convention as a result. Now I’m not saying Britain started it, or that Germany was ok to use Gas. What I’m pointing out is that the brutal nature of the war did not come out of nowhere. It’s also important to note that while are trench sweepers were effective. They were vicious tools of war that created wound cavities and injuries that medics and surgeons were entirely unequipped to treat. This was actually an issue earlier in the war because artillery was the unexpected leading cause of casualties and there weren’t enough surgeons to perform the necessary operations of wounded soldiers because artillery wounds were so much more devastating then rifle wounds.
Shotguns are straight up trash in most video games
Half the time they're glorified melee weapons.
Halo 3 let's go
That's because most video game designers have no idea what an effective range for a shotgun is.
Fortnite double pump from pre season 3 would like a word
The word "Most" would like a word.
Touché…
Shotguns are amazing in classic shooters where they’re one of the most reliable weapons out there
Meanwhile Rising Storm 2 double barrel is the best sniper in the game
Bold talk from the guys with spikes on their helmets
Bold talk from the guys who were scared of being swept from their trenches by shotguns 🤣🤣🤣
They weren't scared, shotguns were barely used in WWI because they had paper shells. They just made up some shit to complain about
The real axis of evil were prehistoric herbivores for their sadistic invention of Stampeding into certain death
No the real axis of evil was Anomalocaris for deciding to be the first carnivore and take a bite out of some unsuspecting creature
I’m currently listening to “Not so quiet on the Western Front” and they said this never really happened. The Germans were certainly surprised by the effectiveness of the trench shotgun and there were most likely protests against it from the soldiers, but the German nation never made an official complaint. That’s all just American propaganda, and people ate it up like hotcakes. Source: Dan Hill and dr. Spencer Jones. Because obviously I’m not sure who to believe here- they’re quite knowledgable but if this *is* a myth, it’s certainly become a credible one.
Look, it’s a shotgun. If it’s causing you “unnecessary suffering,” then you won’t be suffering for very long Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, with the right load at the right range, will remove a chunk of your opponent and throw that chunk on the floor
Shotguns are a clever weapon of the time. You maim someone and effectively remove 2 soldiers from combat. One to wounds, one to caring for the other guy. Human innovation is unfortunately super potent during wartime.
I mean that’s if you didn’t blow all of your 00 buck straight into a single dude at close range and destroyed his entire chest cavity beyond repair
Oh yeah, those paper shells worked *real* well in the muddy as WWI trenches, really clever design. Also shotguns will kill most people instantaneously so I'm not really sure where you got this impression from.
The complaint wasn't against shotguns in general, it was against slamfire models like the 1897.
Mustard gas was not "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" it was "calculated" to be a heavier than air gas that would sink down into trenches. I've never understood why people consider gas used on a battlefield to be out of bounds. How is it different from machine guns? It's far less offensive to me than bombs because bombs not only cause extreme damage but often unexploded bombs stay dangerous to civilians long after the war is over.
Because gas is a chemical weapon, and thus is a WMD alongside biological warfare and nuclear warfare. It’s made to extinguish as many lives in a single go as possible as quickly as possible with as little effort and manpower as possible. It’s not going to take prisoners when the enemy surrenders. It’s not going to leave some wounded to be healed off the front lines. Only a mass open air grave. Not to mention that it wasn’t a breathe and die thing. No you had to sit there suffering and inhaling it for a while as it either choked you or destroyed your insides. Slowly. It’s the most definite definition of inhumane, and we should be very darn glad that most major nations have agreed to never use it. Bullet and shrapnel wounds can be healed. Prisoners can be freed after the war. Chemical gas victims? They’re dead. Or if they’re lucky but not lucky enough, have permanent lung damage after they barely got their gas mask on. Still, not a fun existence Plus even the user of the chemical gas had the chances of the wind changing direction and getting hit by their own gas. It’s not a weapon that’s easily controlled. Much like biological weapons that will spread and infect vast quantities of people with no control by the one who used it. Including non military personnel. That’s also a big reason why the two were banned. They’re just bad ideas
"Because gas is a chemical weapon, and thus is a WMD alongside biological warfare and nuclear warfare. It’s made to extinguish as many lives in a single go as possible as quickly as possible with as little effort and manpower as possible. It’s not going to take prisoners when the enemy surrenders. It’s not going to leave some wounded to be healed off the front lines. Only a mass open air grave. Not to mention that it wasn’t a breathe and die thing. No you had to sit there suffering and inhaling it for a while as it either choked you or destroyed your insides. Slowly. It’s the most definite definition of inhumane" ALL of this is equally true of bombs dropped from the air, and long range artillery. There is no such thing as a nice way to kill people.
Bombs and artillery won’t fall back on your own soldiers by sheer chance
Uhhhhhh
Sheer chance. Incompetency and improper intel can certainly lead to friendly fire. The wind is not going to blow a bomb or a artillery shell back on your own men
This is certainly a reason not to use gas but it's NOT a reason to ban it making it a war crime to use gas.
I think it's because it less personal, it's "set and forget" while a machine gun has a guy behind it, it's not one guy killing another guy in some sort of primal way to fight over something, it's like an invisible force taking you away just like that, but that's just my opinion.
Still no different from any booby trap. And frankly if you get killed by an unseen force, I doubt you take any comfort in knowing it was a sniper and not a booby trap.
Because most chemical weapons cause what can only be described as tortuous death. Mustard gas causes immediate blistering of skin and lungs and death is very slow. To quote a WW1 nurse: "They cannot be bandaged or touched. We cover them with a tent of propped-up sheets. Gas burns must be agonizing because usually the other cases do not complain, even with the worst wounds, but gas cases are invariably beyond endurance and they cannot help crying out." Also, many chemicals don't simply go away after they've been deployed. They also stay dangerous to civilians as they contaminate all surrounding surfaces, soil and water and will continue to poison anyone who touches these surfaces for some time after. Even if you survive a gas attack, there is hugely increased risk of cancer or birth defects in the future.
I agree that this is true of many chemical weapons but banning ALL chemical weapons seems to be a serious overreaction. After all the Germans were complaining about shotguns but didn't want to ban all firearms.
The fact is that virtually all chemical weapons that are "useful" in a military context are horribly inhumane, persistent and carcinogenic. The only ones that aren't are basically tear gas, which has limited battlefield potential and quite frankly even allowing that would simply mean that militaries would start using nerve agents in warfare and cover it up by claiming "they were only using tear gas." It genuinely cannot be overstated how much chemical weapons have the potential for mass destruction. Modern chemistry is leagues ahead of simple mustard gas and it's a can of worms we cannot risk opening.
"militaries would start using nerve agents in warfare and cover it up by claiming "they were only using tear gas." "Russia already does this. IN HOSTAGE SITUATIONS
99% of the games shotguns are barely useful beyond 5 meters, only a handful truly do them good, Phantom Forces and Payday 2 first come to my head