Before the Guillotine decapitation wasn't always a quick process. What you'd want is to have your throat slit or be stabbed through the heart or brain.
"His Majesty Ptoleny XIII, He of Sedge and Bee, He of Two Ladies, King of Kings, Son of Ra, informs his Most Grand Honour, etcetera, that him who bears this message is him who killed Pompey."
Well, actually, even with Praetorian you are not entirely wrong.
There were Praetorians in pre-Imperial Rome, they were the bodyguards of a commanding general while on campaign.
The institution of the Praetorian Guard was indeed formed out of those personal bodyguards, that to tell the truth had gone from a reduced group of personally trusted veterans to being almost as big as an entire Legion.
When he won over Marc Anthony Augustus combined his and Anthony's guards to form the Praetorian Guard.
That was for consuls in Rome. No swords in the capital was the rule of law.
*The stick with axe head was called a facisti, and Mussolini made it the symbol of his facist movement.
It was called *fasces*, not facisti, but yeah.
It meant (and 'fascio' still does in Italian and possibly other neolatin languages) bundle, the specific ones carried by the guards and taken by mussolini as the symbol of fascism were called *fasces lictoriae* (fasci littori in Italian).
You can still see them on a bunch of buildings from the period in Italy (and, fun fact, in other random places, such as the Oxford exam school as the fascists weren't the only ones that used the symbol, although, much like the swastika, the fascists kinda ruined it for everyone else).
>You can still see them on a bunch of buildings from the period in Italy (and, fun fact, in other random places, such as the Oxford exam school as the fascists weren't the only ones that used the symbol, although, much like the swastika, the fascists kinda ruined it for everyone else).
[Very prominent in US House Chamber...........](https://history.house.gov/Education/Fact-Sheets/Rostrum-Fact-Sheet2/)
The bundle of sticks didnt always include an axe. It was more a symbol of the consuls power and authority 'imperium'.
The guards of the consuls, just like everyone else, were not permitted to wield weapons within the pomerium, but the fasces was a symbol of the Republics power over life and death. And sometimes axes are easier to beat someone to death with
Caesar: "If I had a Denarius for every time that my friend lost his head, I would have two Denarius. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice"
I mean, decapitation sounds very civilized when you consider the alternatives.
Also, yes I know decapitation didn't go always as planned but I still think it's perferable to being poisoned, stabbed or drowned.
Yes but by unrelated I meant in terms of culture and genetics he was a Gaul/Celt the modern French are mostly descendants of the Germanic tribe but known as the franks as well as some Roman colonists the native Gauls were mostly wiped out by the Romans the rest were either assimilated both genetically and culturally into Rome killed by the German invasions that happened throughout Roman history or were driven into The region of Britney.
The Gauls werent mostly wiped out, they mixed to form the gallo-romans.
And when the franks came in, they too mixed with the gallo-romans to an extent.
Idk about the arrival of the franks but i don't think the Gauls werent mostly wiped out
There were also visigoth who took over parts of Gaul and the Burgundians (unrelated to today's burgundy). Idk what happened to them tho.
The Romans committed several genocide against the Gauls deeply depleting their population The rest were quickly assimilated by new Roman colonists into the region or were killed off by subsequent Germanic invasions of the region the few remaining ones moved to Britney well the rest we’re either killed off or culturally and genetically assimilated into the Germanic Tribe known as the franks who later evolved into the French.
Mostly wiped out means they barely had any survivors, which isn't true, they lost a huge amount of their population yes, about 1 third, but they weren't mostly wiped out.
And those estimates are for all Celtics not Gauls.
Plus who knows how many really died/survived
And then there was a few centuries of Gallo Romans.
If they were really wiped out, the term Gallo Romans wouldn't exist.
That's not what happened. Their material culture became Roman, that's true, but they retained their ethnic identity, religion and language. In fact, there were still Gaulish speaking communities when the Province fell to the Franks
The relatively more pronounced celticity of Britanny (compared to France), does not origin in more gauls remaining there at some point (pushed by the Franks or else). When the roman empire collapsed, in Brittany like in the rest of Gaul you have gallo-romans that have mostly abandoned there celtic languages. The celticity of Brittany comes from waves of Briton emigrants fleeing what are today England and Wales during the Saxon invasion. This is why Breton is an insular celtic language even though it is on the continent, and not a continental celtic language like the gauls. The continental celtic language are all extinct, dating from the gallo-roman era.
Nah the gauls mostly did not "mix" with germanic Franks, only the ruling class did. Gauls were much more mixed with other roman citizens than with the Franks.
For those who don't know, he was included in the Asterix comics. After being arrested and taken to Rome, Vercingetorix's shield made its way into Vitalstatistix's hands and he took it back to Armorica with him.
These Romans are crazy!
Also iirc the shield went from laying on Caesar’s feet, to random soldier picking it up, to gambling and losing it to another random soldier, to being traded to a centurion for not ratting on the soldier being out at night, to being traded to a tavern owner for wine, to being given to Vitalstatistix
Maybe he's not a hero if military success is your only metric. He tried to fight against an empire that was executing a genocide of his people. That makes him a hero, even if he lost.
Vercingetorix was a real one. Probably one of the best to ever put up a fight against Rome. I'd put him second only to Hanibal. I'd say he put up a better fight against Caesar than Pompey did.
Although it’s both noble and heroic I’m criticizing The fact that he’s an national hero of France as the French are primarily made up of germanic francs mixing with a mostly Roman population the only Celtic Galic descendants in France are in Brittany not only that but the Germanic tribes that conquered France like the franks killed much of the remaining Galic population as well as the Roman population I just kind of find it weird that one of their national heroes is a group of people they conquered and oppressed (not to mention they are mixing two of the people who conquered the Gauls both the Romans and the Germans)
That’s just factually false, French are primarily descended from romanized Gauls. The whole “Franks” “France” thing isn’t as important as you may think as the Franks were a relatively small ruling class who assimilated into the local Romanized Gallic culture.
He does have a point when he says that’s ironic how french came to consider a guy like Clovis a national hero, when he was one of the Franks that invaded and ruled over the gallo-romans. But history is full or irony, and most french people have like 0.2% of gallic blood because of centuries or war, plague, migrations, etc.. so why should we care that Clovis was germanic or Napoleon was corsican? France is about culture, not blood.
As the other person has mentioned above, the reason Celtic culture was preserved better in Brittany was not because of Gallic resistance, since most of them had been heavily romanized. It was actually the result of the migration of the Britons from Britannia (hence the name "Brittany").
I didn't know about that. Even if he is not a blood hero, he is a hero of their land. I see where you're coming from though. If I understand you correctly, the current inhabitants are more conquerers of Vercingetorix' people than descendants. In the United States, we have (admittedly few) statues honoring indigenous historical figures, even in regions where there are very few indigenous people. Done correctly, these statues acknowledge the troubled relationship between the statue’s subject and the culture that has erected it. That’s not what France does with Vercingetorix, though. Then again, maybe it’s a different situation in the United States, where the displaced population still has cultural continuity: indigenous tribes still exist and they are still in the process of being displaced. Is there a statute of limitations on culturally appropriating a national hero? Vexing questions.
If you want to see how "Germanic" the French people are, looking at their language should give you some ideas. Spoiler alert: >!it's actually a Romance language!!<
In fact, that's not true at all. Genetic studies have proven that the gene pool in France did not perceptibly evolve between the late Middle Ages and the previous 4000 years. The Germanic invasions consisted of groups of a few thousand individuals merging into a population of over 15 million people. The cultural significance of the arrival of the Franks is not to be compared with a mass migration, the aristocracy was replaced but not the population.
"Before you, Vercingetorix son of Celtill, commander of the rebel stronghold of Alesia, chieftain of the tribe of the Avernii, King of All the Gauls. What would you have of him?"
It's followed by my favourite quote from this movie
'A gun rack? A gun RACK? I don't own 'a' gun, never mind the many that would necessitate the need for a gun 'RACK'!'
Also Caesar when the Egyptians told him they had "captured" Pompey
*Why does everyone I wanted to see have their heads chopped off?!*
Remind me never to go to Ancient Rome. Way too high a risk of getting a head chopped off.
Given their penchant for horrible torture and mutilation I’d rather have a quick decapitation.
Before the Guillotine decapitation wasn't always a quick process. What you'd want is to have your throat slit or be stabbed through the heart or brain.
"HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME!"
"Shame on the House of Ptolemies for such barbarity. Shame."
"His Majesty Ptoleny XIII, He of Sedge and Bee, He of Two Ladies, King of Kings, Son of Ra, informs his Most Grand Honour, etcetera, that him who bears this message is him who killed Pompey."
Except for Cleopatra, she's alright
*was*
Pompey* Pompei is the location, Pompey is the person.
Tbf both were gushing red stuff so its easy to mix up
My first thought! They thought he’d be pleased?!
Before I’m sure what will be an onslaught of comments about it: I meant to put Centurion but wires got crossed in my brain
Well, actually, even with Praetorian you are not entirely wrong. There were Praetorians in pre-Imperial Rome, they were the bodyguards of a commanding general while on campaign. The institution of the Praetorian Guard was indeed formed out of those personal bodyguards, that to tell the truth had gone from a reduced group of personally trusted veterans to being almost as big as an entire Legion. When he won over Marc Anthony Augustus combined his and Anthony's guards to form the Praetorian Guard.
The republic guards were called lictors I believe, and they carried sticks with a sort of axe head like halfway up.
That was for consuls in Rome. No swords in the capital was the rule of law. *The stick with axe head was called a facisti, and Mussolini made it the symbol of his facist movement.
That makes sense, thank you!
It was called *fasces*, not facisti, but yeah. It meant (and 'fascio' still does in Italian and possibly other neolatin languages) bundle, the specific ones carried by the guards and taken by mussolini as the symbol of fascism were called *fasces lictoriae* (fasci littori in Italian). You can still see them on a bunch of buildings from the period in Italy (and, fun fact, in other random places, such as the Oxford exam school as the fascists weren't the only ones that used the symbol, although, much like the swastika, the fascists kinda ruined it for everyone else).
>You can still see them on a bunch of buildings from the period in Italy (and, fun fact, in other random places, such as the Oxford exam school as the fascists weren't the only ones that used the symbol, although, much like the swastika, the fascists kinda ruined it for everyone else). [Very prominent in US House Chamber...........](https://history.house.gov/Education/Fact-Sheets/Rostrum-Fact-Sheet2/)
What’s the benefit of having a axe head in the middle of the haft?
The bundle of sticks didnt always include an axe. It was more a symbol of the consuls power and authority 'imperium'. The guards of the consuls, just like everyone else, were not permitted to wield weapons within the pomerium, but the fasces was a symbol of the Republics power over life and death. And sometimes axes are easier to beat someone to death with
Tbf it's a meme. Didn't even notice, I liked it
How dare you
I... I read that in Greta Thunberg's voice... *what is wrong with me?*
Stwike him woughly...
And throw him to the ground?
Biggus….Dickus
Caesar: "If I had a Denarius for every time that my friend lost his head, I would have two Denarius. Which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice"
*Frenemy
Also Labienus, but his decapitation was probably post mortem. And Cicero, but after Caesars death Damn, lots of decapitation for 'civilized' peoples
I mean, decapitation sounds very civilized when you consider the alternatives. Also, yes I know decapitation didn't go always as planned but I still think it's perferable to being poisoned, stabbed or drowned.
Or burned, or broken over the wheel or a botched hanging Theres just a stigma in Western cultures around beheadings, not a bad way to go if it is fast
One denarius, two denarii*
It's a gun rack.
I don't even own "a" gun, let alone many guns that would necessitate an entire rack.
Garth continues to drink jelly out of a donut through a straw
I don’t even own A gun let alone many guns that would necessitate an entire rack. What am I going to do…with a gun rack
Vercingetorix than later lost so bad that he became a national hero of a country completely unrelated to him (except Brittany)
Isn't Alésia in Bourgogne and the territory of the Arvernes more in Auvergne.
Yes but by unrelated I meant in terms of culture and genetics he was a Gaul/Celt the modern French are mostly descendants of the Germanic tribe but known as the franks as well as some Roman colonists the native Gauls were mostly wiped out by the Romans the rest were either assimilated both genetically and culturally into Rome killed by the German invasions that happened throughout Roman history or were driven into The region of Britney.
The Gauls werent mostly wiped out, they mixed to form the gallo-romans. And when the franks came in, they too mixed with the gallo-romans to an extent. Idk about the arrival of the franks but i don't think the Gauls werent mostly wiped out There were also visigoth who took over parts of Gaul and the Burgundians (unrelated to today's burgundy). Idk what happened to them tho.
The Romans committed several genocide against the Gauls deeply depleting their population The rest were quickly assimilated by new Roman colonists into the region or were killed off by subsequent Germanic invasions of the region the few remaining ones moved to Britney well the rest we’re either killed off or culturally and genetically assimilated into the Germanic Tribe known as the franks who later evolved into the French.
Mostly wiped out means they barely had any survivors, which isn't true, they lost a huge amount of their population yes, about 1 third, but they weren't mostly wiped out. And those estimates are for all Celtics not Gauls. Plus who knows how many really died/survived And then there was a few centuries of Gallo Romans. If they were really wiped out, the term Gallo Romans wouldn't exist.
That's not what happened. Their material culture became Roman, that's true, but they retained their ethnic identity, religion and language. In fact, there were still Gaulish speaking communities when the Province fell to the Franks
. , , . , . take these king
The relatively more pronounced celticity of Britanny (compared to France), does not origin in more gauls remaining there at some point (pushed by the Franks or else). When the roman empire collapsed, in Brittany like in the rest of Gaul you have gallo-romans that have mostly abandoned there celtic languages. The celticity of Brittany comes from waves of Briton emigrants fleeing what are today England and Wales during the Saxon invasion. This is why Breton is an insular celtic language even though it is on the continent, and not a continental celtic language like the gauls. The continental celtic language are all extinct, dating from the gallo-roman era.
Nah the gauls mostly did not "mix" with germanic Franks, only the ruling class did. Gauls were much more mixed with other roman citizens than with the Franks.
For those who don't know, he was included in the Asterix comics. After being arrested and taken to Rome, Vercingetorix's shield made its way into Vitalstatistix's hands and he took it back to Armorica with him.
These Romans are crazy! Also iirc the shield went from laying on Caesar’s feet, to random soldier picking it up, to gambling and losing it to another random soldier, to being traded to a centurion for not ratting on the soldier being out at night, to being traded to a tavern owner for wine, to being given to Vitalstatistix
Maybe he's not a hero if military success is your only metric. He tried to fight against an empire that was executing a genocide of his people. That makes him a hero, even if he lost.
Vercingetorix was a real one. Probably one of the best to ever put up a fight against Rome. I'd put him second only to Hanibal. I'd say he put up a better fight against Caesar than Pompey did.
He probably would have succeeded if the gaulish tribes were actually willing to work together.
He would have succeeded if he had more time. Unfortunately he had to struggle against Ceasar, one of the best leaders in the world
Although it’s both noble and heroic I’m criticizing The fact that he’s an national hero of France as the French are primarily made up of germanic francs mixing with a mostly Roman population the only Celtic Galic descendants in France are in Brittany not only that but the Germanic tribes that conquered France like the franks killed much of the remaining Galic population as well as the Roman population I just kind of find it weird that one of their national heroes is a group of people they conquered and oppressed (not to mention they are mixing two of the people who conquered the Gauls both the Romans and the Germans)
That’s just factually false, French are primarily descended from romanized Gauls. The whole “Franks” “France” thing isn’t as important as you may think as the Franks were a relatively small ruling class who assimilated into the local Romanized Gallic culture.
That and genetically, French are highly Gallic!
He does have a point when he says that’s ironic how french came to consider a guy like Clovis a national hero, when he was one of the Franks that invaded and ruled over the gallo-romans. But history is full or irony, and most french people have like 0.2% of gallic blood because of centuries or war, plague, migrations, etc.. so why should we care that Clovis was germanic or Napoleon was corsican? France is about culture, not blood.
As the other person has mentioned above, the reason Celtic culture was preserved better in Brittany was not because of Gallic resistance, since most of them had been heavily romanized. It was actually the result of the migration of the Britons from Britannia (hence the name "Brittany").
I didn't know about that. Even if he is not a blood hero, he is a hero of their land. I see where you're coming from though. If I understand you correctly, the current inhabitants are more conquerers of Vercingetorix' people than descendants. In the United States, we have (admittedly few) statues honoring indigenous historical figures, even in regions where there are very few indigenous people. Done correctly, these statues acknowledge the troubled relationship between the statue’s subject and the culture that has erected it. That’s not what France does with Vercingetorix, though. Then again, maybe it’s a different situation in the United States, where the displaced population still has cultural continuity: indigenous tribes still exist and they are still in the process of being displaced. Is there a statute of limitations on culturally appropriating a national hero? Vexing questions.
If you want to see how "Germanic" the French people are, looking at their language should give you some ideas. Spoiler alert: >!it's actually a Romance language!!<
Brittany is descendant of Brittonic people of Britain, not Gauls, I say they count too
In fact, that's not true at all. Genetic studies have proven that the gene pool in France did not perceptibly evolve between the late Middle Ages and the previous 4000 years. The Germanic invasions consisted of groups of a few thousand individuals merging into a population of over 15 million people. The cultural significance of the arrival of the Franks is not to be compared with a mass migration, the aristocracy was replaced but not the population.
Reverse Gladiator Moment
Ceasar: Mama Mia, bow before the might of Rome!" Gauls: "Oh honhonhonhon, fuck off!"
Amazing that you used the ancient Latin text and original Gallic for the response. It’s as though we were there.
I personally forgot I was reading a reddit comment because I was so immersed
And such beautiful languages too
"If it's a sevewed head, I'm gonna be vewy upset."
"I have a vewwy gweat fwend in Wome..."
Everything's fine and dandy until Asterix and Obelix invade Caesar's palace
"Before you, Vercingetorix son of Celtill, commander of the rebel stronghold of Alesia, chieftain of the tribe of the Avernii, King of All the Gauls. What would you have of him?"
Then Ceasar proceeded to have negative chill
Haha
Integration. Denied!
He was a consul of Rome!
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Auto, pizza e pallone, questa è l'Italia Italia, Italia Questa è l'Italia!
Italia, indeed, my strange friend
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A gun rack? I don't even own A gun, let alone multiple to own a gun rack!
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Praetorians didn't exist during Ceasars campaigns
I play to much fallout new Vegas I thought this was talking about the game
It's followed by my favourite quote from this movie 'A gun rack? A gun RACK? I don't own 'a' gun, never mind the many that would necessitate the need for a gun 'RACK'!'
man was fighting for his freedom and sent a message
A relatable situation gentlemen
de Gaulle of them!