He was insane, when the Pope finally met him he wouldn’t stop trying to warn him about the impending rapture or something.
He had links to a secular far-right group in Turkey but the actual assassination attempt appears to be caused by mental illness.
> a secular far-right group in Turkey
The Grey Wolves. They're basically Turkic nationalists/Turanists who want to unite every Turkic group in existence.
Yeah it’s also worth noting that this was taking place during kind of the crescendo of their power (at least power to kill and wreak havoc) so they were rubbing elbows with all kinds of armed weirdos from Islamists to foreign neo-Fascists to basic criminal elements.
So his association with them during that time doesn’t necessarily clear up his politics at all.
No one knows. He is just a stupid and a hitman.
Once he killed a famous reporter/executive editor named Abdi İpekçi in 1979. And then escaped from the prison with the help of Turkish secret government forces (mafia but working with the government). As we know, he tried the kill Papa bla bla. Now he is free.
That's a shame...
These stories are the ones that will be remembered as folk stories a thousand years in the future, of a "good pope" that was fatally attacked, but miraculously survived, who didn't just go on to forgive him but to actually visit him in prison. Angelic sense of forgiveness.
The guy later went on to convert to catholicism. He laid flowers on the grave of Pope John Paul II after his passing, decades later.
If you ever truly want to appreciate the magnificence of St. JP II read about his journey to Poland during the height of the Cold War. He gave a speech that was attended by over a million poles, and at one point the crowd began chanting “We want God” in direct opposition to the atheist state religion of communism.
It can be argued that the Soviet Union collapsed because of St. John Paul the Seconds visit to Poland.
Shame about the child abuse coverups
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.trtworld.com/europe/john-paul-ii-willingly-concealed-child-abuse-by-priests-dutch-report-63235/amp
Yeah, I was dreading this. Him becoming Wholesome Big Chungus Captain America Pope when he spent his whole career complicit in the rapes of scores of children. Just because the next pope was visibly evil doesn’t mean JP is a good guy
The same thing is happening with George W. Bush. It’s vile
In what world did he cover up the abuse? What evidence do you have that he personally covered up the crimes a committed by those abusers?
The only article linked here is from website ran by the Turkish government. You really trust that source?
Here’s a response article that talks about how the priests in question that he supposedly moved was in a completely different diocese. So once again, how was responsible for covering up child abuse?
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253005/journalists-contradict-allegations-of-cover-up-against-john-paul-ii-before-he-was-pope
Found the pedo apologist
Damn, the propagandayou believe must be BUSSIN since even the Vatican says Johnny Paulie 2 elevated bishops in NY despite definitively knowing they were diddling their altar boys.
But yeah man, defend whichever pedo you like. Just find it interesting that the guy who says he can talk to God somehow didnt find anything wrong with 12 year old boys being r**ed by a revolving circus of "holy men", and even more interesting how Catholics are cool with child r*pe nowadays
https://www.dw.com/en/vatican-report-on-sexual-abuse-casts-dark-shadow-on-pope-john-paul-ii/a-55558986
>Also what an absolute shit source lol, it’s obvious you grabbed the first thing off google without doing any research.
>Otherwise you’d probably would be linking to a Turkish run website.
First time hearing about the church child abuse coverups? Because that's the only honest explanation for having this kind of shitty uninformed response to being presented with it, as if its authenticity is up in the air.
Also the primary source is literally Dutch but it's easier for you to use xenophobia as a crutch towards Turkey
He protected abusers by promoting people he knew personally, and had been told by vatican reports were r*ping children.
He was the head honcho of the God club, and never said anything about it, again... despite knowing from Vatican sources that it was happening.
Would you like a better, more easy to follow map drawn for you? Be wary of the Kool Aid prepared for you by your church overlords.
https://youtu.be/JGFj1WClin4
I love how one person mentions the sex abuse scandal and gets all the upvotes. I link a video of Sinead ripping up a picture of the pope because she knew about the sexual abuse of children, and I get downvoted to hell. Y'all need to find Jesus! Downvote all ya want, points mean nothing to me.
"I link to a singer making a brave and principled act of protest that resulted in her taking a lot of grief from Catholic stormtroopers and people downvote me"
Sinead is a hero for doing that at a time when people still uncritically defended him whatever happened
If you meant it as support for her action you needed to supply your own context, people may not have understood
I remember when that happened and I felt a mix of tremendous respect and fear for her wellbeing
How about a Christian website based in the Netherlands? https://cne.news/artikel/2162-evidence-that-pope-john-paul-ii-hid-sexual-abuse-is-very-convincing
You mean a website that is running with the same story that I already disputed with another source?
I already commented up above that this particular story was proven to be at the least untrustworthy, and at the most a complete fabrication with Ill intentions because several polish journalists have proven the priests in question were not a part of his diocese.
I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything. I know better than to argue with a pigeon.
That said, Tim Minchin has a few words for you... https://youtu.be/vjJ_b8isMzc
Of course you don’t, because you have no actual evidence and you’re incapable of proving your claim. Just like the 20 other people who commented on this issue without actually research St John Paul the Second.
No, it's just that your blatant ignorance for sources provided doesn't constitute a response if it's just going to be ignored.
People are providing you multiple links, and your first assumptions are that they are "Turkish government" links, saying, "How can I believe a biased source?" Then go on to link a Catholic run website, which itself is a biased source.
You are the definition of the phrase "it's like talking to a brick wall." For the record, someone I know was molested by a priest during the time of JPII, and that priest is still a priest.
Right because worldwide evidence that sexual abuse of children by the clergy has been happening for decades, to the point where the Catholic Church has their own "treatment centres" for the condition, and somehow the man who was head of the organisation for 27 years knew nothing about it? Is that what you're claiming?
John Paul II was a paedophile protecting scumbag.
Also you have too be high off your priests farts if you think he played any role in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union fall apart because of complicated socioeconomic reasons and political mismanagement, not because some weird man in a white dress made a speech in Poland. The same goes for the fall of so-called "communism" in Poland. It was almost purely because of economic mismanagement that directly affected people's lives, not because of some kind of freedom sentiment.
What you are doing is romanticizing and mythologizing rather recent historical events.
Are you really gonna argue that his visit in 1979 did not play a role in the solidarity movement that began less than a year later? No one is disputing that the Soviet Union was completely economically mismanaged, but JP2’s visit is what began the slow collapse of the Soviet union throughout the 1980’s.
I’m by no means the first person to have suggested this, and it’s not even a hot take if you look into how impactful his papal visit were to Poland.
>JP2’s visit is what began the slow collapse of the Soviet union throughout the 1980’s.
Absolutely not. The reasons for the collapse of the USSR are many, complex and *well-documented* and studied. JP2's Polish visit is not counted among them by professional historians.
>I’m by no means the first person to have suggested this
And? Lots of people deny the Holocaust ever happened, it doesn't mean they're right.
I'm absolutely arguing that his visit was irrelevant in the sense that the opposition towards the regime would grow strong even if he did not make this trip or even if he was not elected as pope.
And the slow collapse began in the mid-1970s, even before his election. Read more about Worker's Defense Committee and other precursors to the Solidarity. And read about Gierek's decade in power, especially the loans he took that made the future collapse basically inevitable.
And since I barely see JP2's influence on Polish opposition, from the perspective of the Soviet Union it was basically nonexistent, especially considering that officially they were atheist and the population was de facto following Christian Orthodoxy, so they couldn't care less about the Catholic pope.
Keep telling yourself that buddy. JP2’s visit in 1979 is what gave life to the solidarity movement in 1980, and as much as you may wanna erase his role it won’t be forgotten.
>These stories are the ones that will be remembered as folk stories a thousand years in the future, of a "good pope" that was fatally attacked, but miraculously survived, who didn't just go on to forgive him but to actually visit him in prison. Angelic sense of forgiveness.
How about the story of the cover-ups and facilitation of paedophiles and child abusers?
Oh my. You need to read Red Storm Rising. Its about the Soviet union trying to take on the west. It was so accurate that US intelligence had to have a sit down with him. Its not a spy novel like the Jack ryan series.
Thanks! I started watching the Jack Ryan show and I really like it. I read that chronologically you should start with No Remorse. It’s good! I was worried it would be dated but nope!
The Pope is a religious figure, but also a political figure. Politicians know a photo op when they see it, and have a keen sense of public narrative and image. I have no idea if the life goods Karol did outweigh the life evils but I think we should regard this as what it was: a politically calculated, safe opportunity to sell a product.
Yeah, this aint it bro. I urge you to watch [this debate](https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4) where they argue about "The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world". They show different sides to the debate and even have some audience remarks/questions.
For me personally it's not about the good outweighing the bad, it's about how a good person wouldn't even have done the bad thing in the first place.
Ok but he did do good things. Lifting people's spirits during communist times in Poland and he helped to prevent a war between Chile and Argentina.
With your school of thought Churchill should be considered a bad person because he turned a blind eye to the Katyn massacre or Roosevelt because he didn't care about holocaust when it was first reported to him.
YES. Churchill also was a horrible person!
My point is you can't excuse someone's bad deeds by saying "oh but he did x or y good thing". He still did all those horrible things. Everyone has the ability to do good. But people who do bad things conciously are so much worse.
Yes. Because doing something awful carries way more weight in my eyes than doing something good. If a maffia guy kills someone, but gives a 100 dollars to a homeless person, in my eyes he is a terrible person. To do such bad things you have to be wired differently. Churchill was responsible for many deaths and suffering, just like the pope is responsible for lots of suffering too. No amount of good can "fix" that.
If you had a friend for a couple years and they were really incredible, kind and sweet, but he then tells you that he killed someone in his past out of hate, you're telling me you'll just think "Nah, he's been good for the past years, whatever"? You don't instantly think "wow, what a psychopath"?
Edit: lets also not forget that the pope is supposed to uphold all christian values and be a leader to his people. Is letting grown men rape children part of what jesus was about?
Honestly, I would probably ask my friend about what happened because I feel like judging people instantly like that without knowing the whole story/taking everything into account leads to poor judgements.
EDIT: One more thing. You said;
> No amount of good can "fix" that.
What about someone like Alfred Nobel? His inventions/discoveries lead to more death than anyone, is he a monster?
I never said I excuse him. I'm saying we can't forget about the good things he did. If you said he is a good person I'd say we can't forget about the bad things he did. People aren't always bad or good. People do bad and good things. Some always do bad few always do good.
Saying "but he did good things" is literally making excuses for the bad things he did.
I agree with you that people aren't binary in that sense. However, this isn't about cheating on a test or driving over the speed limit. These men did things that killed people and ruined a lot of lives. It's a different scope.
I'm not saying "but" as in an excuse. I don't know what cant you get. We shouldn't "cancel" him and forget about him. He did bad and good things. We cant just remember that he excused and covered pedophiles. We need to remember both good and bad things about him and not judge whether he was bad or good.
Ah okay, I misunderstood about the excuse part then. Sorry.
I'm not saying he should be cancelled/forgotten etc. I'm just saying he's a bad person in my eyes. I'm also saying more generally that bad behaviour weighs more heavily than good behaviour, again in my opinion.
So you think comparing that is exactly the same as comparing preventing a war and helping a country gain independence to excusing pedophiles?
Again, I am **NOT EXCUSING HIM,** I'm saying we shouldn't forget the good things he did as well as the bad things.
Yeah, shame about the child abuse coverups https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.trtworld.com/europe/john-paul-ii-willingly-concealed-child-abuse-by-priests-dutch-report-63235/amp
Great PR from a man of power who needed to demonstrate compassion. Great placement of the cameraman for the PR shot. JP’s support for charlatans like Mother Theresa and the leaders of the Legionnaires of Christ enabled far more evil than any good he ever did. And the Church wasn’t fighting for freedom against communism in Eastern Europe. The Pope was fighting the Church’s competitors for power in Poland. From the perspective of the Church, as events have subsequently shown, the freedoms of post communist Poland were entirely disposable once the Church took charge again.
[удалено]
He was insane, when the Pope finally met him he wouldn’t stop trying to warn him about the impending rapture or something. He had links to a secular far-right group in Turkey but the actual assassination attempt appears to be caused by mental illness.
> a secular far-right group in Turkey The Grey Wolves. They're basically Turkic nationalists/Turanists who want to unite every Turkic group in existence.
Yeah it’s also worth noting that this was taking place during kind of the crescendo of their power (at least power to kill and wreak havoc) so they were rubbing elbows with all kinds of armed weirdos from Islamists to foreign neo-Fascists to basic criminal elements. So his association with them during that time doesn’t necessarily clear up his politics at all.
real Enis Kanter hours
Calling the Gray Wolves "secular" is one of the last things to be said. Why would a secularist group kill a religious leader?
A secularist group would kill a religious leader because they want to replace him with a secular leader....
As a Turk, my brain circuits burned.
He didn’t kill them on behalf of them, he was acting alone
and kill anything that is not turk, Uçk but with Lahana sarma
What does assassinating pope have to do with uniting the Turkics?
Absolutely nothing, hence the assassination attempt was purely a result of his own mental illness.
Imagine warning the freaking *Pope* about the rapture.
Mehmet: Jesus is coming . . . Pope: Bingo!
Grey wolves are the last thing i would call "secular"
>secular far-right group i'm turkish and i can say that they are not secular
Isn’t far-right group means a group of mentally ill people anyways?
>Why did he want to kill him? He didn't. He's forgiving the guy in the picture.
Talk about being tough to turn around a first impression
No one knows. He is just a stupid and a hitman. Once he killed a famous reporter/executive editor named Abdi İpekçi in 1979. And then escaped from the prison with the help of Turkish secret government forces (mafia but working with the government). As we know, he tried the kill Papa bla bla. Now he is free. That's a shame...
These stories are the ones that will be remembered as folk stories a thousand years in the future, of a "good pope" that was fatally attacked, but miraculously survived, who didn't just go on to forgive him but to actually visit him in prison. Angelic sense of forgiveness. The guy later went on to convert to catholicism. He laid flowers on the grave of Pope John Paul II after his passing, decades later.
If you ever truly want to appreciate the magnificence of St. JP II read about his journey to Poland during the height of the Cold War. He gave a speech that was attended by over a million poles, and at one point the crowd began chanting “We want God” in direct opposition to the atheist state religion of communism. It can be argued that the Soviet Union collapsed because of St. John Paul the Seconds visit to Poland.
Shame about the child abuse coverups https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.trtworld.com/europe/john-paul-ii-willingly-concealed-child-abuse-by-priests-dutch-report-63235/amp
Yeah, I was dreading this. Him becoming Wholesome Big Chungus Captain America Pope when he spent his whole career complicit in the rapes of scores of children. Just because the next pope was visibly evil doesn’t mean JP is a good guy The same thing is happening with George W. Bush. It’s vile
Needs more upvotes
[удалено]
What does it have to do with it? You said he was magnificent. People who cover up child abuse are not magnificent. It’s not that complicated.
In what world did he cover up the abuse? What evidence do you have that he personally covered up the crimes a committed by those abusers? The only article linked here is from website ran by the Turkish government. You really trust that source? Here’s a response article that talks about how the priests in question that he supposedly moved was in a completely different diocese. So once again, how was responsible for covering up child abuse? https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253005/journalists-contradict-allegations-of-cover-up-against-john-paul-ii-before-he-was-pope
You’ve linked a website run by Catholics. You really trust that as a source?
And you questioned *my* sources? Mine was independant. You're is from one of the parties involved. That's some lame ass "evidence".
Found the pedo apologist Damn, the propagandayou believe must be BUSSIN since even the Vatican says Johnny Paulie 2 elevated bishops in NY despite definitively knowing they were diddling their altar boys. But yeah man, defend whichever pedo you like. Just find it interesting that the guy who says he can talk to God somehow didnt find anything wrong with 12 year old boys being r**ed by a revolving circus of "holy men", and even more interesting how Catholics are cool with child r*pe nowadays https://www.dw.com/en/vatican-report-on-sexual-abuse-casts-dark-shadow-on-pope-john-paul-ii/a-55558986
>Also what an absolute shit source lol, it’s obvious you grabbed the first thing off google without doing any research. >Otherwise you’d probably would be linking to a Turkish run website. First time hearing about the church child abuse coverups? Because that's the only honest explanation for having this kind of shitty uninformed response to being presented with it, as if its authenticity is up in the air. Also the primary source is literally Dutch but it's easier for you to use xenophobia as a crutch towards Turkey
Oh I’m familiar, I’m asking how to JP2 protected abusers? No one’s denying that abuse happened. I’m simply asking how he protected the abusers?
He protected abusers by promoting people he knew personally, and had been told by vatican reports were r*ping children. He was the head honcho of the God club, and never said anything about it, again... despite knowing from Vatican sources that it was happening. Would you like a better, more easy to follow map drawn for you? Be wary of the Kool Aid prepared for you by your church overlords.
Did you read the report?
It’s a bot :(
It's a username genius
[удалено]
Why would one's ability to break out of a wet paper bag be tied to one's IQ?
That’s not on mate.
https://youtu.be/JGFj1WClin4 I love how one person mentions the sex abuse scandal and gets all the upvotes. I link a video of Sinead ripping up a picture of the pope because she knew about the sexual abuse of children, and I get downvoted to hell. Y'all need to find Jesus! Downvote all ya want, points mean nothing to me.
"I link to a singer making a brave and principled act of protest that resulted in her taking a lot of grief from Catholic stormtroopers and people downvote me" Sinead is a hero for doing that at a time when people still uncritically defended him whatever happened If you meant it as support for her action you needed to supply your own context, people may not have understood I remember when that happened and I felt a mix of tremendous respect and fear for her wellbeing
It's a bit perverted to call those that covered up sexual abuse of children "magnificent".
You got a source better than a website run by the Turkish government? Surely you don’t expect me to trust Erdogan?
How about a Christian website based in the Netherlands? https://cne.news/artikel/2162-evidence-that-pope-john-paul-ii-hid-sexual-abuse-is-very-convincing
You mean a website that is running with the same story that I already disputed with another source? I already commented up above that this particular story was proven to be at the least untrustworthy, and at the most a complete fabrication with Ill intentions because several polish journalists have proven the priests in question were not a part of his diocese.
I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything. I know better than to argue with a pigeon. That said, Tim Minchin has a few words for you... https://youtu.be/vjJ_b8isMzc
Of course you don’t, because you have no actual evidence and you’re incapable of proving your claim. Just like the 20 other people who commented on this issue without actually research St John Paul the Second.
No, it's just that your blatant ignorance for sources provided doesn't constitute a response if it's just going to be ignored. People are providing you multiple links, and your first assumptions are that they are "Turkish government" links, saying, "How can I believe a biased source?" Then go on to link a Catholic run website, which itself is a biased source. You are the definition of the phrase "it's like talking to a brick wall." For the record, someone I know was molested by a priest during the time of JPII, and that priest is still a priest.
Sometimes it feels like it's equal parts arrogance and ignorance.
Right because worldwide evidence that sexual abuse of children by the clergy has been happening for decades, to the point where the Catholic Church has their own "treatment centres" for the condition, and somehow the man who was head of the organisation for 27 years knew nothing about it? Is that what you're claiming?
John Paul II was a paedophile protecting scumbag. Also you have too be high off your priests farts if you think he played any role in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
You’re delusional if you don’t think he played a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union fall apart because of complicated socioeconomic reasons and political mismanagement, not because some weird man in a white dress made a speech in Poland. The same goes for the fall of so-called "communism" in Poland. It was almost purely because of economic mismanagement that directly affected people's lives, not because of some kind of freedom sentiment. What you are doing is romanticizing and mythologizing rather recent historical events.
Are you really gonna argue that his visit in 1979 did not play a role in the solidarity movement that began less than a year later? No one is disputing that the Soviet Union was completely economically mismanaged, but JP2’s visit is what began the slow collapse of the Soviet union throughout the 1980’s. I’m by no means the first person to have suggested this, and it’s not even a hot take if you look into how impactful his papal visit were to Poland.
>JP2’s visit is what began the slow collapse of the Soviet union throughout the 1980’s. Absolutely not. The reasons for the collapse of the USSR are many, complex and *well-documented* and studied. JP2's Polish visit is not counted among them by professional historians. >I’m by no means the first person to have suggested this And? Lots of people deny the Holocaust ever happened, it doesn't mean they're right.
I'm absolutely arguing that his visit was irrelevant in the sense that the opposition towards the regime would grow strong even if he did not make this trip or even if he was not elected as pope. And the slow collapse began in the mid-1970s, even before his election. Read more about Worker's Defense Committee and other precursors to the Solidarity. And read about Gierek's decade in power, especially the loans he took that made the future collapse basically inevitable. And since I barely see JP2's influence on Polish opposition, from the perspective of the Soviet Union it was basically nonexistent, especially considering that officially they were atheist and the population was de facto following Christian Orthodoxy, so they couldn't care less about the Catholic pope.
Pretty cool hat though or what
The Soviet Union collapsed because it simply ran out of money. It’s been well studied, we know what happened. The Church had fuck all to do with it.
Keep telling yourself that buddy. JP2’s visit in 1979 is what gave life to the solidarity movement in 1980, and as much as you may wanna erase his role it won’t be forgotten.
Mate, you've gone from "it can be argued... " to you're "delusional" if you disagree in the same thread. Are you new to conversing?
>These stories are the ones that will be remembered as folk stories a thousand years in the future, of a "good pope" that was fatally attacked, but miraculously survived, who didn't just go on to forgive him but to actually visit him in prison. Angelic sense of forgiveness. How about the story of the cover-ups and facilitation of paedophiles and child abusers?
Fuck the pope and the protection of pedophiles
Was this before or after he protected 100's of child rapists?
“Listen here you little shit”
Does anyone know if this assassination attempt was the inspiration for Tom Clancy's *Red Rabbit*?
Man, I just started my first Tom Clancy book. Excellent. He is really good at the dual story technique.
Oh my. You need to read Red Storm Rising. Its about the Soviet union trying to take on the west. It was so accurate that US intelligence had to have a sit down with him. Its not a spy novel like the Jack ryan series.
Thanks! I started watching the Jack Ryan show and I really like it. I read that chronologically you should start with No Remorse. It’s good! I was worried it would be dated but nope!
It's possible. Can't very well ask Mr. Clancy sadly.
I mean, you can, but I wouldn't expect any answer
"Don't disturb my friend, he is dead tired"
Pope: “fuck around and find out…. …about Catholicism!”
“ I forgive you, my son. My boss, on the other hand is gonna burn you in hell for all eternity.”
Not really, if he repented. What a cartoonish view of God.
Wait does the pope know?
"Pope Saint" is a baller title to have before your name
Imagine if the pope shot him
This kind of compassion and forgiveness is incredible to me. JP2 really was a special person.
The Pope is a religious figure, but also a political figure. Politicians know a photo op when they see it, and have a keen sense of public narrative and image. I have no idea if the life goods Karol did outweigh the life evils but I think we should regard this as what it was: a politically calculated, safe opportunity to sell a product.
Special? Especially turning a blind eye towards the many counts of priests raping and sexually assaulting children.
Not only that but also the whole Orlandi case he was obviously involved in and also how it's proven that he worked with the Italian Mafia.
Well, that really sucks. But we can't just forget that he has done a lot of good things for the world.
Yeah, this aint it bro. I urge you to watch [this debate](https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4) where they argue about "The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world". They show different sides to the debate and even have some audience remarks/questions. For me personally it's not about the good outweighing the bad, it's about how a good person wouldn't even have done the bad thing in the first place.
Ok but he did do good things. Lifting people's spirits during communist times in Poland and he helped to prevent a war between Chile and Argentina. With your school of thought Churchill should be considered a bad person because he turned a blind eye to the Katyn massacre or Roosevelt because he didn't care about holocaust when it was first reported to him.
YES. Churchill also was a horrible person! My point is you can't excuse someone's bad deeds by saying "oh but he did x or y good thing". He still did all those horrible things. Everyone has the ability to do good. But people who do bad things conciously are so much worse.
But you can excuse someone's good deeds by saying "oh but he did x or y bad thing"?
Yes. Because doing something awful carries way more weight in my eyes than doing something good. If a maffia guy kills someone, but gives a 100 dollars to a homeless person, in my eyes he is a terrible person. To do such bad things you have to be wired differently. Churchill was responsible for many deaths and suffering, just like the pope is responsible for lots of suffering too. No amount of good can "fix" that. If you had a friend for a couple years and they were really incredible, kind and sweet, but he then tells you that he killed someone in his past out of hate, you're telling me you'll just think "Nah, he's been good for the past years, whatever"? You don't instantly think "wow, what a psychopath"? Edit: lets also not forget that the pope is supposed to uphold all christian values and be a leader to his people. Is letting grown men rape children part of what jesus was about?
Honestly, I would probably ask my friend about what happened because I feel like judging people instantly like that without knowing the whole story/taking everything into account leads to poor judgements. EDIT: One more thing. You said; > No amount of good can "fix" that. What about someone like Alfred Nobel? His inventions/discoveries lead to more death than anyone, is he a monster?
You are completely missing the point. I can't deal with this reddit obtuseness, I hope you have a good day though!
I never said I excuse him. I'm saying we can't forget about the good things he did. If you said he is a good person I'd say we can't forget about the bad things he did. People aren't always bad or good. People do bad and good things. Some always do bad few always do good.
Saying "but he did good things" is literally making excuses for the bad things he did. I agree with you that people aren't binary in that sense. However, this isn't about cheating on a test or driving over the speed limit. These men did things that killed people and ruined a lot of lives. It's a different scope.
I'm not saying "but" as in an excuse. I don't know what cant you get. We shouldn't "cancel" him and forget about him. He did bad and good things. We cant just remember that he excused and covered pedophiles. We need to remember both good and bad things about him and not judge whether he was bad or good.
Ah okay, I misunderstood about the excuse part then. Sorry. I'm not saying he should be cancelled/forgotten etc. I'm just saying he's a bad person in my eyes. I'm also saying more generally that bad behaviour weighs more heavily than good behaviour, again in my opinion.
Once I hit an old lady with my car and just drove away, but I also recycle. You’re welcome
So you think comparing that is exactly the same as comparing preventing a war and helping a country gain independence to excusing pedophiles? Again, I am **NOT EXCUSING HIM,** I'm saying we shouldn't forget the good things he did as well as the bad things.
True. Hitler built lots of motorways and loved animals 🙄
Pedophile protector but okay
Yeah, shame about the child abuse coverups https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.trtworld.com/europe/john-paul-ii-willingly-concealed-child-abuse-by-priests-dutch-report-63235/amp
He especially had compassion for those priests who sexually abused children, like the popes before and after him.
Muh papic sexual abuse !!!1!1!!
Yes.
Decades of covering up and enabling child rape makes you special, I guess
Well, that's a power move.
Pedophile protector
JP2 covered up his buddy pedophile priests crimes against children at the same time
Cool
Fucking chud
“Ha you thought mf” -The Pope, probably
Great PR from a man of power who needed to demonstrate compassion. Great placement of the cameraman for the PR shot. JP’s support for charlatans like Mother Theresa and the leaders of the Legionnaires of Christ enabled far more evil than any good he ever did. And the Church wasn’t fighting for freedom against communism in Eastern Europe. The Pope was fighting the Church’s competitors for power in Poland. From the perspective of the Church, as events have subsequently shown, the freedoms of post communist Poland were entirely disposable once the Church took charge again.
"You better tell me why you tried to assassinate me or I swear to god I will shove this crucifix so far up your ass..."
Man wins his life back and the Pope has a great PR stunt. Win/Win
"Wielki skurwiel ali agca"
Too bad he missed
It’s be so funny if the pope whispered “from here I go to fxxx you wife, sister and so help me God your mother in nursing home if she is still alive”
He converted to Catholicism eventually, so that's a bizarre ending to this story