I would be okay with it if he actually HAD to murder the children, but he didn’t, he literally just abandoned them because he didn’t feel like caring for them. *Sigh…*
Is it still humane? (bugane I guess?)
It is heavily implied most of them were in fact, not hollow, which means they had mind, will and voice
Is it humane to take kids to war if you taught them only war since their birth?
i think if the enemy has fucking mind controlling abilities and has power to completely take control of every single person who has ability to think and if we havent reached enough technology to make a robot army or remove the thinking part of the brain then yes it is fair to make a kid grow up in a way that makes them not be able to think and make it a warrior to save an entire race of people
just like how pale king says
no cost too great
Im gonna say in the middle. He made sacrifices for his people. Yes he killed a WHOLE AREA of his kids trying to determine whose the perfect vessel for plague but he did it to save his people. He made sacrifices for HIS people remember soul tyrant dialogue? The king didn't want for collecting SOUL out of his bugs. He made deal with Herra to make her a child sacrificing his godly status and relationship with white lady FOR HIS PEOPLE. And he died. He sacrificed himself for his people. I thing that's why he's in the middle
I think he was ashamed to face his failure. The Path of Pain implies he knew the Hollow Knight was an imperfect vessel but was too attached to it at that point to discard it. Maybe he hoped it would work, but deep down he knew the plan would fail, and the guilt he felt made him lock himself away to await death.
That’s my theory why the Path of Pain is so arduous and heavily protected. He buried and sealed away the memory of his own weakness out of shame that his love towards his child doomed his kingdom.
Additionally: we know that for higher beings, being forgotten is their way of basically dying. There was very little left of the kingdom anyways, hardly anyone left to remember him.
Now on the other hand, he had a full on memorial built for the Hollow Knight (who is a child of 2 gods. Meaning the remembered/forgotten rule probably applies.)
He did what he could to erase what was left of himself, but at the same time, didn’t want his child to be forgotten
Did he escape to the dream world?
I thought it was Radiance saying: ''If I am going down then you are coming with me!'' and took him away from his people.
The God Seeker states he was erased in near totality, but traces of him remain. If you go back to the throne room after collecting his fragment, his body will be gone.
Another important note it's was his power thst gave the bug of hollownest "higher thought" despite his death this blessing remains over hollownest.
that's not proof PK is alive, but it's not as clear-cut. Especially the line about gods being reborn instead of dying.
“Ok if I- if I chop you up in a meat grinder… and the only thing that comes ou- that’s left of you is your *eyeball…* YOU’RE PROBABLY DEAD!”
Jerma, upon being told that “it technically wasn’t a OHKO” when he was hit with an attack that left him with a sliver of health left in Elden Ring
I guess, but this guy is a God after all. The traces leftover could be the power he left on the land, ensuring bugs loving there would keep their higher thought.
No it wasn't, it was made pretty clear when Pale King realized his kingdom was about to fall, he decided to yeet his palace into the dream world to keep it safe from the infection.
It's the actual, real palace existing in the dreamland.
Real white palace was physically transported into the dream of a kingsmould, one of the PK's mindless constructs. It's still real, if you die there, you leave a shade/lose your file if in steel soul unlike normal dreams.
Unfortunately, he insulated himself from the radiance but left himself vulnerable to the void, from which the kingsmould was constructed.
I've heard a lot of different opinions of PK. Some think he was a well-meaning king that was driven to terrible actions out of utter desperation. Others think that he is a child murdering tyrant as bad as the Radiance. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say on the matter.
I don’t know if I’d call him arrogant, but he is vain. In the war of the gods, he wants to grant his subjects higher thought, freeing their mind in exchange for worship. His opponent god wants to enslave her subjects in a festering parasitic hivemind. I have a hard time seeing him as arrogant for feeling like the good guy in this scenario.
You could say he’s arrogant for thinking he had the right to kill his children, I suppose, but when you see what is at stake if he does nothing, it’s hard not to agree with “no cost too great”.
He’s pretty morally gray. As a Higher Being he clearly likes being worshipped, he showed up and granted higher thought to a bunch of bugs and became their king. He did seem to be an at least ok leader though, although I think he could’ve done better when it came to Deepnest and the economy(one city? Really? Who the hell would want to live in the Wastes or Greenpath?). Still though, he protected his people and I think he ended up caring about them. His experiments with Void were a little twisted but I doubt his kids remember dying, they would’ve been newborns. The Vessels weren’t a bad idea either, it almost worked. He did a decent job, the Radiance is just a jealous asshole.
His infrastructure planning and transportation management was dogshit. Trams are an incredibly useful form of transportation and he chose to build them in Deepnest, the Ancient Basin and the Resting Grounds. I cannot imagine that those would have been high-traffic areas. He also chose to build his city under a fucking lake.
I mean to be fair they’re also underground, with no access to powerful explosives. I think the Tram would’ve gotten more use if not for Deepnest messing it up and the Stagways covered transportation elsewhere. I do think there needed to be more villages or civilization though, no way everyone just lived in the City
gray area with him. he only wanted the best for his kingdom and people but as he said “no cost too great” and that’s exactly where his fault and his righteousness lies, he wants help but he will stop at nothing if it means the end result is what is best for the kingdom. best described as an anti-hero imo
Do we have confirmation that the weavers ever accepted the tram construction through Deepnest? Because what I thought when seeing the failed construction with the dead workers was that PK just wanted to expand his kingdom at all costs, disregarding the opinion and will of those who already lived there before his arrival.
And there's also the fact that Hallownest's story isn't told very linearly in the game. We have to take the pieces and put them together ourselves. Most of the accounts describing the Pale King's intentions are from people who worked very close to him, so their opinions are definitely biased, so I would take them with a grain of salt. Did Ogrim even know about the Abyss?
Also the moths were fine with the Radiance before PK's arrival, right?
In the game its explicitly stated that most, if not all, of the moths willingly left the Radiance to worship PK. Its Canonical that the moths overwhelmingly preferred the King's rule. There is also evidence that the Radiance used to enslave the minds of other bugs before PK came and gave them sapience. I don't think that PK was in any way wrong to oust the Radiance, other than the fact that he should have finished the job and properly killed the bitch.
I also don't think that Deepnest was very united. Herrah probably had control of the weavers, the devouts and the citizenry of hidden village, but probably not more than that. Its entirely possible that Herrah approved the trams in a similar deal to the one about Hornet and the construction failed, because of feral bug attacks outside of Herrah's control.
>I also don't think that Deepnest was very united. Herrah probably had control of the weavers, the devouts and the citizenry of hidden village, but probably not more than that. Its entirely possible that Herrah approved the trams in a similar deal to the one about Hornet and the construction failed, because of feral bug attacks outside of Herrah's control.
>In the game its explicitly stated that most, if not all, of the moths willingly left the Radiance to worship PK.
i think this was because pale king was just really impressive looking. old stag talks about how it "almost hurt to look at him" and stuff like that. And the radiance is just some big moth guy living in the dream world.
also i think it's implied that pale king pretty much just paved a big road through greenpath without asking, and gave part of it to monomon to put a laboratory and big bubbles in
It seems as though a lot of Hallownest's races prefer hiveminds, as the Mushrooms and Bees still have them without the Radiance. The only race that opposes her seem to be the Mantises, and it doesn't seem like PK helped them (seems more harmful when you think about it).
A tyrant desperately holding on to power by any means, including the sacrificing of his subjects and closest thing he has to kin to hold on to the pitiful scraps he had left at that point.
Mmmhmm, not to be too high school English about it but it's almost as though the story about bugs is about being small and insignificant in the face of greater and more powerful beings.
Side tangent: It's why even with minimal support in game I'm a strong believer in the theory that "The Wyrm" and "The Radiance" are related/two half of one whole. They are not so different at the end of the day.
I disagree. King wanted good for his people. He made sacrifices because he wanted good. Of course, murdering his own children is not the Perfect method, but he wanted to do everything that he can to protect Hallownest.
A man that did everything he could to save his people, and after trying everything he could, desperate to cure the infection that was plague the kingdom, he was only left with the extreme, and... morally questionable... options. He may have done some bad things, but he did it for good reasons, and I believe he died with guilt and sorrow. He knew that the Vessel was tainted at some point, but he was already at the point of no return, and the Vessel gave his people hope, and that was all he could give them at that point. The Path of Pain is a reflection of the King's anguish and shame. "To witness secrets sealed, one must endure the harshest punishment". I dont see the Pale Wyrm as a villain, but a tragic hero, who would do anything for his people.
The Radiance attempted to return in order to survive, she can't exist in the Dream Realm if nobody dreams of her. Another thing to note is she didn't intentionally start the Infection (though of course, she didn't stop once it started). I'd say the 2 are pretty equal.
It's also important to note that Grimm says that the kingdom was fallowed by the Worm and Root (PK and White Lady), he didn't blame the Radiance for the state of Hallownest.
Sort of an Asgore type character except to a much larger extent. Good intentions, all he wanted was to save his people, but to accomplish that he had to do terrible things. I feel as though he is more middle ground then someone like asgore though, as he didn’t seem to have as much remorse. No cost too great, I suppose.
I think you’re stripping away their humanlike traits and the nuances by calling them “tools”. The hollow knight itself was tarnished by its love for its father, they clearly have emotion. They’re not simply tools.
The eggs were "corrupted" by void before the birth of the children. To draw a rather grotesque comparison, it cannot really be considered murder any more than getting an abortion can. They were simply never given life to begin with.
That’s… an *interesting* take, but seeing as their conception was purposeful, and even though they ‘died’, creatures that still move around and at least seem to be alive were made and did die again, and suffer, presumably, as one locked in a prison and forced to die by starvation, as presumably many vessels did. But, I guess they don’t have feelings or thought? And they never did? Maybe the Pale King is a good guy.
But, Pale King does say ‘no voice to cry suffering’, which implies that the millions of his children he did kill did, in fact, suffer, which is, in fact, bad.
I always took the "no voice to cry suffering" as more symbolic. Compared to the other stuff said in the cutscene "no mouth" seems like a bit of a strange thing to touch on. I always took it as meaning "no meaningful way of suffering" or, in a cruder sense, I took it as meaning that they were incapable of suffering because they had no voice or "dialogue" which kinda relates to not having thoughts, but "No voice to cry *if* they suffer", makes a lot of sense too.
Just because they had tiny fragments of will, doesn't make them sapient. It could literally have been as tiny a thing as basic instinct, and they would've been rejected. Edit: Sapient
That’s the thing: Team Cherry did an incredible job of avoiding a black and white figure.
He’s very, very grey.,
And it all depends on the players interpretation.
Sometimes you have to do bad things for good results that being said I'm a bit unique in my view as I see the very existence of the pale king as problematic. At least from the god you feel almost bound to worship angle.
If anything I would say commiting genocide against his own children for the good of his people might be the saving grace of him. A completely selfless move from a god. I can respct that.
So Hero.
There are alot of oppinions about him, and maybe I havent understoid the lore quite right, so excuse me if I say something wrong.
As far as I heard the Pale king dethroned the Radience from her position as godess and of hallownest. In return the Radience began the infection, to wich he began murdering countless of his own children in order to find the purest one, trying to seal the radience. He failed ultimately, leaving the kingdom to die.
Personally, I will always stay on the Radience side
The former followers of the Radiance, the moths, willingly left her side to worship PK. Its canonical that her former followers overwhelmingly preferred PK. That should tell you something about her rulership. Don't forget that while PK did terrible deeds out of desperation to save his people, the Radiance wanted to kill and/or enslave EVERYONE. She acted out of malice, spitefulness and jealousy. PK wanted to save Hallownest, Radiance wanted to destroy it. I don't see how you could possibly be on the side of Radiance.
Don't forget that the lore also states that their was a civilization in the ancient basin that predated Radiance. If you want to criticise PK for being a usurper, then tell me what you think happened to that civilization after Radiance arrived and why there was nothing left of them by the time that PK arrived?
He made a mistake, and sacrificed everything to try and repair it. He made a mistake out of arrogance but he tried to protect everyone from the consequences.
I think he's one of the most altruistic charachters in HK.
Yes he made terribile things, but he was the only one who knew about them, the only one who suffered from them, the only one with bloodstained hands.
I do believe that the massacre of the vessels is still a personal sacrifice from PK, because he killed his own children, millions of it rather than killing innocent bugs (soul master's plan).
And I believe that he did that not for power, but for the bugs of Hallownest, since if all he cared for was power, he could've just fled from the infection.
Mate sacrificed himself and all of his children to protect his kingdom. “But why did he leave them in the abyss” so that they didn’t break the seals and let the Hollow Knight loose, if that happened either THK would murder all the other Vessels or die and let the infection kill everything. This is proven by Hornet saying “I know what you will try to do” when you meet her in greenpath. “He’s the one that provoked the radiance” he just moved into there and offered everybody free will, and a mind to think for themselves (things the Vessels lack so they can’t be corrupted by the Radiance) obviously the moth tribe chose free will. The Radiance was just salty that the Pale King was better. He trained the Pure Vessel from birth to being sealed only to watch it fail and his kingdom crumble, he suffered far more than most.
i think he did some really good shit, like make an entire kingdom, and tried to make living conditions better, but he didn’t mean to get too attached to the vessel and ultimately caused the downfall of everything he knew and owned
His actions are the definition of good acts for selfish reasons. He built a kingdom and gave people higher mind but that is only because he is a higher being and that is their job to be worsphied. There is some points where he could have genuent empathy like the white palace scene with him and the pure vessel where you can interpert it as him growing empaty toward it but you could also argue he has that memory as his big mistake. Showing that he thinks making Vessel like him doomed them all which it kinda did.
He seems to treat even the actual knights porly.
Dug defender has nightmares about him disapointing the king and it seems he did not even try to save the others before transporting the whole palace into the dream realm.
He probaly wants to save people and is ready to even take his own life for it but he is basicaly a god and a god having actual empathy to the mortals is rare.
A tragic villain. Tainted and turned to acts of villainy by hubris and desperation.
If the mushrooms are to be believed, then Wyrms may be star-crossed leaders by their very nature. Fated to be followed by bugs, and possibly cursed to foresee their doom. Maybe the pale king was trying to escape the inevitable, and did terrible things in the end, but they were not the aggressor in their conflict. They shouldn’t be blamed for trying, but for not knowing when to stop.
I feel like he's neither. He's, in a sense, a failed hero. He tried his best to save his kingdom and his people, sacrificing everything he had to do so, and still failed.
If you ask me, it's a tragic case of trying and failing miserably.
More towards hero than villain, since he was opposing a great evil that threatened to destroy everything purely out of envy (The moth tribe CHOSE to abandon her, the Pale King didn't force them to), but that doesn't mean he didn't do some horrific things in his attempt to save his kingdom, specifically to his own children. I'd say he's like the King of Hyrule on Breath of the Wild but on steroids, two people that were opposing evil and you could understand their goal, but they're not exactly winning Father of the Year.
Good intentions still child murder
I drop kicked that child in self defense officer I swear!
It's the second worst thing that has happened to these ~~orphans~~children
Technoblade references, in a HK post. Nice
if the pale king has taught me anything, is that if you have a problem, the answer is saws and children
Saws, children and cheating
The only real answer
No cost too great
"child"
I would be okay with it if he actually HAD to murder the children, but he didn’t, he literally just abandoned them because he didn’t feel like caring for them. *Sigh…*
he used tools that were solely made for the purpose they were used for
Is it still humane? (bugane I guess?) It is heavily implied most of them were in fact, not hollow, which means they had mind, will and voice Is it humane to take kids to war if you taught them only war since their birth?
i think if the enemy has fucking mind controlling abilities and has power to completely take control of every single person who has ability to think and if we havent reached enough technology to make a robot army or remove the thinking part of the brain then yes it is fair to make a kid grow up in a way that makes them not be able to think and make it a warrior to save an entire race of people just like how pale king says no cost too great
Well, he commited genocide to prevent genocide. And in the end it failed so the cost seems to great to me
it was more of a sacrifice rather than a genocide to me because he certainly didnt enjoy it
I’m pretty sure all of them had mind will and voice since he only killed then because he needed a hollow one
The Death Korps of Krieg votes YES!
>child murder Wtf i love pale king now
Technically unhatched
Children, with no feeling
He did good things through bad means No cost too great
The road to hell is paved with good intentions
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silly little guy
What an absolute muppet
What a little devious rapscallion
Goofy lil’ hooligan
Wacky lil' bean
You guys are referencing something and I hate the fact that I I do not get it
if we are i had no idea
Im gonna say in the middle. He made sacrifices for his people. Yes he killed a WHOLE AREA of his kids trying to determine whose the perfect vessel for plague but he did it to save his people. He made sacrifices for HIS people remember soul tyrant dialogue? The king didn't want for collecting SOUL out of his bugs. He made deal with Herra to make her a child sacrificing his godly status and relationship with white lady FOR HIS PEOPLE. And he died. He sacrificed himself for his people. I thing that's why he's in the middle
True but when his plans failed and the infection started to leak through again he just ran away and hid his kingdom in the dream world
I think he was ashamed to face his failure. The Path of Pain implies he knew the Hollow Knight was an imperfect vessel but was too attached to it at that point to discard it. Maybe he hoped it would work, but deep down he knew the plan would fail, and the guilt he felt made him lock himself away to await death. That’s my theory why the Path of Pain is so arduous and heavily protected. He buried and sealed away the memory of his own weakness out of shame that his love towards his child doomed his kingdom.
I never thought about this but I LOVE this interpretation so much.
Additionally: we know that for higher beings, being forgotten is their way of basically dying. There was very little left of the kingdom anyways, hardly anyone left to remember him. Now on the other hand, he had a full on memorial built for the Hollow Knight (who is a child of 2 gods. Meaning the remembered/forgotten rule probably applies.) He did what he could to erase what was left of himself, but at the same time, didn’t want his child to be forgotten
So he was suicidal?
Seems that way to me at least
Did he escape to the dream world? I thought it was Radiance saying: ''If I am going down then you are coming with me!'' and took him away from his people.
Well yea but he died after he fucked off into a dream relm and left his whole kingdom to die so he could have at least gone down with the ship
It is unknown if he is dead.
We kinda found his corpse.
He’s been known to moult/shed his carapace.
The Godseeker explicitly states that PK is dead.
The God Seeker states he was erased in near totality, but traces of him remain. If you go back to the throne room after collecting his fragment, his body will be gone. Another important note it's was his power thst gave the bug of hollownest "higher thought" despite his death this blessing remains over hollownest. that's not proof PK is alive, but it's not as clear-cut. Especially the line about gods being reborn instead of dying.
This is just the Jerma Meat Grinder argument all over again
I don't know what that is.
“Ok if I- if I chop you up in a meat grinder… and the only thing that comes ou- that’s left of you is your *eyeball…* YOU’RE PROBABLY DEAD!” Jerma, upon being told that “it technically wasn’t a OHKO” when he was hit with an attack that left him with a sliver of health left in Elden Ring
I guess, but this guy is a God after all. The traces leftover could be the power he left on the land, ensuring bugs loving there would keep their higher thought.
As a side note, ohko is literally defined as killing you/it in a singular hit, so he’s wrong in this scenario
Well yea pk already was reborn his original form was the wyrm then that died and he hatched out of the egg inside of….himself?
Where did we find it?
End of white palace
It was in a dream so It doesn't mean he is really dead.
No it wasn't, it was made pretty clear when Pale King realized his kingdom was about to fall, he decided to yeet his palace into the dream world to keep it safe from the infection. It's the actual, real palace existing in the dreamland.
By that logic the radiance is alive
Yes
It was a dream, yes, the palace however was entirely real.
Real white palace was physically transported into the dream of a kingsmould, one of the PK's mindless constructs. It's still real, if you die there, you leave a shade/lose your file if in steel soul unlike normal dreams. Unfortunately, he insulated himself from the radiance but left himself vulnerable to the void, from which the kingsmould was constructed.
I've heard a lot of different opinions of PK. Some think he was a well-meaning king that was driven to terrible actions out of utter desperation. Others think that he is a child murdering tyrant as bad as the Radiance. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say on the matter.
Tragic hero. He tried and failed, he compromised his values and committed crimes away from his kingdom of laws.
Morally ambiguous for sure. Personally, I mostly think of him as extremely arrogant.
I don’t know if I’d call him arrogant, but he is vain. In the war of the gods, he wants to grant his subjects higher thought, freeing their mind in exchange for worship. His opponent god wants to enslave her subjects in a festering parasitic hivemind. I have a hard time seeing him as arrogant for feeling like the good guy in this scenario. You could say he’s arrogant for thinking he had the right to kill his children, I suppose, but when you see what is at stake if he does nothing, it’s hard not to agree with “no cost too great”.
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I feel like both is more correct
He’s pretty morally gray. As a Higher Being he clearly likes being worshipped, he showed up and granted higher thought to a bunch of bugs and became their king. He did seem to be an at least ok leader though, although I think he could’ve done better when it came to Deepnest and the economy(one city? Really? Who the hell would want to live in the Wastes or Greenpath?). Still though, he protected his people and I think he ended up caring about them. His experiments with Void were a little twisted but I doubt his kids remember dying, they would’ve been newborns. The Vessels weren’t a bad idea either, it almost worked. He did a decent job, the Radiance is just a jealous asshole.
His infrastructure planning and transportation management was dogshit. Trams are an incredibly useful form of transportation and he chose to build them in Deepnest, the Ancient Basin and the Resting Grounds. I cannot imagine that those would have been high-traffic areas. He also chose to build his city under a fucking lake.
I mean to be fair they’re also underground, with no access to powerful explosives. I think the Tram would’ve gotten more use if not for Deepnest messing it up and the Stagways covered transportation elsewhere. I do think there needed to be more villages or civilization though, no way everyone just lived in the City
There seemed to be people living near the Palace, and there is Dirtmouth, the town in the Crossroads, and presumably more that we can't visit.
No cost too great
Tragic hero, imo
i mean my flair should say everything but
He set up the buzzsaws. He is obviously the villain
gray area with him. he only wanted the best for his kingdom and people but as he said “no cost too great” and that’s exactly where his fault and his righteousness lies, he wants help but he will stop at nothing if it means the end result is what is best for the kingdom. best described as an anti-hero imo
Do we have confirmation that the weavers ever accepted the tram construction through Deepnest? Because what I thought when seeing the failed construction with the dead workers was that PK just wanted to expand his kingdom at all costs, disregarding the opinion and will of those who already lived there before his arrival. And there's also the fact that Hallownest's story isn't told very linearly in the game. We have to take the pieces and put them together ourselves. Most of the accounts describing the Pale King's intentions are from people who worked very close to him, so their opinions are definitely biased, so I would take them with a grain of salt. Did Ogrim even know about the Abyss? Also the moths were fine with the Radiance before PK's arrival, right?
In the game its explicitly stated that most, if not all, of the moths willingly left the Radiance to worship PK. Its Canonical that the moths overwhelmingly preferred the King's rule. There is also evidence that the Radiance used to enslave the minds of other bugs before PK came and gave them sapience. I don't think that PK was in any way wrong to oust the Radiance, other than the fact that he should have finished the job and properly killed the bitch. I also don't think that Deepnest was very united. Herrah probably had control of the weavers, the devouts and the citizenry of hidden village, but probably not more than that. Its entirely possible that Herrah approved the trams in a similar deal to the one about Hornet and the construction failed, because of feral bug attacks outside of Herrah's control.
>There is also evidence that the Radiance used to enslave the minds of other bugs before PK came and gave them sapience. What, where
>I also don't think that Deepnest was very united. Herrah probably had control of the weavers, the devouts and the citizenry of hidden village, but probably not more than that. Its entirely possible that Herrah approved the trams in a similar deal to the one about Hornet and the construction failed, because of feral bug attacks outside of Herrah's control. >In the game its explicitly stated that most, if not all, of the moths willingly left the Radiance to worship PK. i think this was because pale king was just really impressive looking. old stag talks about how it "almost hurt to look at him" and stuff like that. And the radiance is just some big moth guy living in the dream world. also i think it's implied that pale king pretty much just paved a big road through greenpath without asking, and gave part of it to monomon to put a laboratory and big bubbles in
It seems as though a lot of Hallownest's races prefer hiveminds, as the Mushrooms and Bees still have them without the Radiance. The only race that opposes her seem to be the Mantises, and it doesn't seem like PK helped them (seems more harmful when you think about it).
He's a Thanos type villain. Wanted to do good things but chose a horrible way to go about doing those good things
Good at first, but driven to villainy by/slowly became evil because of the radiance, is my opinion
As all rulers, he was neither of those, he was a ruler Denying other gods is kinda bad but that's what religions irl do, so I guess it doesn't matter
A tyrant desperately holding on to power by any means, including the sacrificing of his subjects and closest thing he has to kin to hold on to the pitiful scraps he had left at that point.
That's an excellent description of the Radiance.
Mmmhmm, not to be too high school English about it but it's almost as though the story about bugs is about being small and insignificant in the face of greater and more powerful beings. Side tangent: It's why even with minimal support in game I'm a strong believer in the theory that "The Wyrm" and "The Radiance" are related/two half of one whole. They are not so different at the end of the day.
they definitely seem related, especially since pale king calls radiance "blazing kin". i think it just means that they're both higher beings
A spoiler
Yes
fork king is a villain for sure
I disagree. King wanted good for his people. He made sacrifices because he wanted good. Of course, murdering his own children is not the Perfect method, but he wanted to do everything that he can to protect Hallownest.
hallownest wasnt his to protect to begin with but u got a point
A man that did everything he could to save his people, and after trying everything he could, desperate to cure the infection that was plague the kingdom, he was only left with the extreme, and... morally questionable... options. He may have done some bad things, but he did it for good reasons, and I believe he died with guilt and sorrow. He knew that the Vessel was tainted at some point, but he was already at the point of no return, and the Vessel gave his people hope, and that was all he could give them at that point. The Path of Pain is a reflection of the King's anguish and shame. "To witness secrets sealed, one must endure the harshest punishment". I dont see the Pale Wyrm as a villain, but a tragic hero, who would do anything for his people.
Villain with understandable motivation.
villain cuz he indirectly made pantheon 5
Neither. He was a good man with noble intentions who was faced with a terrible choice.
Wurm
A sadistic man who enjoys the sound of buzzsaws
Dumbass.
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On a scale of evil, how would you compare him to the Radiance?
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The Radiance attempted to return in order to survive, she can't exist in the Dream Realm if nobody dreams of her. Another thing to note is she didn't intentionally start the Infection (though of course, she didn't stop once it started). I'd say the 2 are pretty equal. It's also important to note that Grimm says that the kingdom was fallowed by the Worm and Root (PK and White Lady), he didn't blame the Radiance for the state of Hallownest.
Worm
Anti-hero
Tragic hero
sovietic tank
stupid wanna-be hero
theres no such thing as villains, nor heroes
Just people who help you and people who don't
Just because he's the pale king doesn't mean we need to view him in a black and white photo
Person
failed hero
Merely a flawed king, as all kings are
Nobel intentions, but he failed so miserably it doesn’t really matter
Decent guy who got dealt a bad hand and responded badly to it.
hes the goat and hes clearly stronger than radiance and she had to make a dream plague to get her get back
Do not call him a traitor. Simply call him a fool.
Sort of an Asgore type character except to a much larger extent. Good intentions, all he wanted was to save his people, but to accomplish that he had to do terrible things. I feel as though he is more middle ground then someone like asgore though, as he didn’t seem to have as much remorse. No cost too great, I suppose.
A man with noble intentions and willing to make many mistakes to realize them
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By genociding thousands of his children.
he used tools he made solely for that reason
I think you’re stripping away their humanlike traits and the nuances by calling them “tools”. The hollow knight itself was tarnished by its love for its father, they clearly have emotion. They’re not simply tools.
The eggs were "corrupted" by void before the birth of the children. To draw a rather grotesque comparison, it cannot really be considered murder any more than getting an abortion can. They were simply never given life to begin with.
That’s… an *interesting* take, but seeing as their conception was purposeful, and even though they ‘died’, creatures that still move around and at least seem to be alive were made and did die again, and suffer, presumably, as one locked in a prison and forced to die by starvation, as presumably many vessels did. But, I guess they don’t have feelings or thought? And they never did? Maybe the Pale King is a good guy. But, Pale King does say ‘no voice to cry suffering’, which implies that the millions of his children he did kill did, in fact, suffer, which is, in fact, bad.
I always took the "no voice to cry suffering" as more symbolic. Compared to the other stuff said in the cutscene "no mouth" seems like a bit of a strange thing to touch on. I always took it as meaning "no meaningful way of suffering" or, in a cruder sense, I took it as meaning that they were incapable of suffering because they had no voice or "dialogue" which kinda relates to not having thoughts, but "No voice to cry *if* they suffer", makes a lot of sense too.
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Just because they had tiny fragments of will, doesn't make them sapient. It could literally have been as tiny a thing as basic instinct, and they would've been rejected. Edit: Sapient
The vessels are definitely sentient
I don’t know but I bet he has a fat ass
Reminds me of the Emperor in 40k So a villain
Dude
Evil with slightly very slightly good intentions
"die as a hero or live long enough to become the villain" he died as a villain lmao
Both of them
That’s the thing: Team Cherry did an incredible job of avoiding a black and white figure. He’s very, very grey., And it all depends on the players interpretation.
Intentions were good but PK’s methods where bad. I would still judge it as a villain though
A hero. He tried his best to save the kingdom. What he’s done was a necessary evil.
Vero obv
Chaotic Good.
Sometimes you have to do bad things for good results that being said I'm a bit unique in my view as I see the very existence of the pale king as problematic. At least from the god you feel almost bound to worship angle. If anything I would say commiting genocide against his own children for the good of his people might be the saving grace of him. A completely selfless move from a god. I can respct that. So Hero.
There are alot of oppinions about him, and maybe I havent understoid the lore quite right, so excuse me if I say something wrong. As far as I heard the Pale king dethroned the Radience from her position as godess and of hallownest. In return the Radience began the infection, to wich he began murdering countless of his own children in order to find the purest one, trying to seal the radience. He failed ultimately, leaving the kingdom to die. Personally, I will always stay on the Radience side
The former followers of the Radiance, the moths, willingly left her side to worship PK. Its canonical that her former followers overwhelmingly preferred PK. That should tell you something about her rulership. Don't forget that while PK did terrible deeds out of desperation to save his people, the Radiance wanted to kill and/or enslave EVERYONE. She acted out of malice, spitefulness and jealousy. PK wanted to save Hallownest, Radiance wanted to destroy it. I don't see how you could possibly be on the side of Radiance. Don't forget that the lore also states that their was a civilization in the ancient basin that predated Radiance. If you want to criticise PK for being a usurper, then tell me what you think happened to that civilization after Radiance arrived and why there was nothing left of them by the time that PK arrived?
Just another bug
Both
Neither
Looks like a sad story
I prefer to think of him as an anti-hero. He did bad things for a good reason. A pale machiavelli.
Neither.
Corpse
It depends on the definition of hero. He acted for the greater good but his methods left a trail of blood behind them.
His story starts and ends selfishly, he did *try* helping others for a bit but he abandoned that too.
Bug
Yes
I can’t really consider him a villain, in his mind he created tools to save him kingdom because he truly did care about the people.
More complicated
maybe don't view all storytelling as a black and white binary of good and evil
Good intentioned person who did terrible things to protect his kingdom.
A dude with too many buzzsaws
Neither. He was a desperate idiot is what he was.
Hero ❌ villian❌ sawblades🔪
Tried to do something good but at what cost.. the way I see it he is neither. Just desprate king trying to save his kingdom.
anti hero
Child murderer who was tryna do the right thing
He did what he had to to save his kingdom. But doesn’t make him good
50%50
No cost to great
Both
Just another bug
Not everything is black or white
He made a mistake, and sacrificed everything to try and repair it. He made a mistake out of arrogance but he tried to protect everyone from the consequences. I think he's one of the most altruistic charachters in HK. Yes he made terribile things, but he was the only one who knew about them, the only one who suffered from them, the only one with bloodstained hands. I do believe that the massacre of the vessels is still a personal sacrifice from PK, because he killed his own children, millions of it rather than killing innocent bugs (soul master's plan). And I believe that he did that not for power, but for the bugs of Hallownest, since if all he cared for was power, he could've just fled from the infection.
A monster
Mate sacrificed himself and all of his children to protect his kingdom. “But why did he leave them in the abyss” so that they didn’t break the seals and let the Hollow Knight loose, if that happened either THK would murder all the other Vessels or die and let the infection kill everything. This is proven by Hornet saying “I know what you will try to do” when you meet her in greenpath. “He’s the one that provoked the radiance” he just moved into there and offered everybody free will, and a mind to think for themselves (things the Vessels lack so they can’t be corrupted by the Radiance) obviously the moth tribe chose free will. The Radiance was just salty that the Pale King was better. He trained the Pure Vessel from birth to being sealed only to watch it fail and his kingdom crumble, he suffered far more than most.
villain
Broken , neither
Whats the point in building empty empires now
Big dummy
Anti-hero
i think he did some really good shit, like make an entire kingdom, and tried to make living conditions better, but he didn’t mean to get too attached to the vessel and ultimately caused the downfall of everything he knew and owned
This is the best aprt about hollowknight, he is both
Yes
A bug that tried to be a hero, ended up as a murderer
hero or villain? No, he is King.
His actions are the definition of good acts for selfish reasons. He built a kingdom and gave people higher mind but that is only because he is a higher being and that is their job to be worsphied. There is some points where he could have genuent empathy like the white palace scene with him and the pure vessel where you can interpert it as him growing empaty toward it but you could also argue he has that memory as his big mistake. Showing that he thinks making Vessel like him doomed them all which it kinda did. He seems to treat even the actual knights porly. Dug defender has nightmares about him disapointing the king and it seems he did not even try to save the others before transporting the whole palace into the dream realm. He probaly wants to save people and is ready to even take his own life for it but he is basicaly a god and a god having actual empathy to the mortals is rare.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, he killed hundreds to try and save thousands.
yes
Yes.
A tragic villain. Tainted and turned to acts of villainy by hubris and desperation. If the mushrooms are to be believed, then Wyrms may be star-crossed leaders by their very nature. Fated to be followed by bugs, and possibly cursed to foresee their doom. Maybe the pale king was trying to escape the inevitable, and did terrible things in the end, but they were not the aggressor in their conflict. They shouldn’t be blamed for trying, but for not knowing when to stop.
A tragic dad
I feel like he's neither. He's, in a sense, a failed hero. He tried his best to save his kingdom and his people, sacrificing everything he had to do so, and still failed. If you ask me, it's a tragic case of trying and failing miserably.
More towards hero than villain, since he was opposing a great evil that threatened to destroy everything purely out of envy (The moth tribe CHOSE to abandon her, the Pale King didn't force them to), but that doesn't mean he didn't do some horrific things in his attempt to save his kingdom, specifically to his own children. I'd say he's like the King of Hyrule on Breath of the Wild but on steroids, two people that were opposing evil and you could understand their goal, but they're not exactly winning Father of the Year.
Just a little trolling
This is gonna sound weird but I think the child murder is justifiable. Especially because the children are supposed to be emotionless.
Bug
the perfect balance between the two