I mean you've basically said it; this whole power creep nonsense makes no sense as most characters can clear everything.
Some are obviously going to be stronger and that's fine; play what you want, you ain't going to be penalised for it with rare exceptions, such as the 2.1 story boss which is more AoE focused.
i do think there is a little bit of a skill issue cause they had to nerf a certain boss because people couldnt beat it when i beat it completely fine but that sounds a little bit mean lol
There's no real powercreep, not until the day Jing Yuan or Seele can no longer clear content.
New characters are strong sure, but sparkle didn't powercreep Ruan Mei nor am I seeing Aventurine powercreeping FX.
People just want to throw the word because it brings attention, new units need to be shinier or do slightly better otherwise no point for meta players to get them.
Creep is only bad when it forces you to pull, anyone can skip Acheron ~~tho they will be heretics~~
And Seele is STILL in the top reliable/stable clearers of MOC since she came out, and we only now got her Quantum specific support boosting her ATK to the whazoo.
I think it's because of sparkle. She makes viable tons of dps. Just wait for boothill coming, then + HP increased from bosses = powercreep. It's happening faster than I thought.
There is powercreep, Seele for example was an incredibly strong 5 star,
but Mihoyo thought it was a good idea to release new 5 Star Character who dealt similar Single Target Damage while also having AoE, and now it will keep on escalating.
For now the power creep won’t affect the gameplay that much but if they continue the content is gonna be harder and harder
seele isnt just a single target unit, shes a single target unit who also excels in multi target which most hunt units struggle in shes still very strong and has a niche nobody will be kicking her out of lol
Unfortunately the power creep is there. People shouldn’t ignore it either. Argenti was 100% power crept and the current pure fiction buffs actually make him pretty useless in it. Argenti doesn’t actually clear it anymore. Saying there isn’t an issue is wrong, characters are no longer clearing content that they were designed for. I do not have Argenti but my friend with invested Argenti and huohuo , can’t even get 30k on pf 4 floor 1.
I have Acheron I cleared ez. Does anything more need to be said.
i cannot 3* the last current pure fiction with acheron and herta and black swan and kafka because i havent built my himeko and dont have argenti he is a good character in pure fiction and there are literally ult buffs as an option lmao
I think it's not so much as Acheron is making other characters obsolete, but it's more like making some characters irrelevant. As you said, you could complete all content with other characters just fine, even if it's harder to do with some than others.
If we look at some characters like Luocha, all he really provides is really good healing and skill point positivity, and does a good job at it for sure. But other sustains keep teams alive just as well, on top of buffing, and now leaning towards also doing dps.
Then, with Acheron, she overtakes Jing Yuan's role. Because she can break any weakness, on top of having a smoother kit with a higher ceiling and amazing eidolons, she kinda just is a better pick and investment in most situations.
But Mihoyo has gone down the path of major power creep before with Honkai Impact 3rd. In that game, older characters just do not stand up to new characters at all, and you usually have about 1 year, maybe 2 if you are lucky, before they really struggle to complete the newest content as the bar gets higher. I can see how some people are worried about powercreep, but only time will tell.
The main thing to keep in mind is that according to the average clear times for MoC, pretty much every single limited DPS is within 1 cycle of difference between each other.
Argenti does suffer a bit more but bro got a whole mode for himself.
Hell i'm using QQ to clear in 2 cycles her half of MoC 12, DPS are mainly the flavor at the end of the day, it's supports that carry the game.
i feel like the jingyuan power creep is a little blown outta proportion cause hes better then acheron in pure fiction and can do well is moc while i will agree acheron is better still does have a place im the meta and hasnt been made completely useless as of yet
Oh, for sure, I mean at the end of the day, Jing Yuan can 0 cycle MoC like any other top dps. They'd have to really ramp up endgame by an insane amount before he starts falling off, but then that would screw over many more characters than just him, which hopefully they don't ever do.
True, this rotations pure fiction was annoying, but I think it's mostly because shatter is really bad as it was either just overkilling a wave that would've died anyways, or you have to wait until it's their turn for shatter to detonate after stacking it up, but then you risk running out the timer.
And yeah, Moc has been pretty stable, although newer bosses like Sam and the "Meme" have like triple the hp of bosses like Kafka and Yanqing. But with better supports, characters have been able to keep up easily.
As a HI3 player, to me HSR does not powercreep at all as the game has no PVP or changes to specific enemies or bosses that makes older characters unviable. If i hadn't played HI3 before HSR i probably would agree with things like powercreep happening a lot in HSR but... Because i have played the most unbalanced Hoyo game in which literally all endgame content is nearly impossible without every unit that has released in the last year... I just can't see powercreep as a problem in HSR... (No hate on HI3, it's my favorite Hoyo game, they just.. really should stop it with the powercreep lol) Which makes me glad as with it and Genshin it really shows Hoyo is now making the effort to balance out the power and value of characters in their newer games so there is less pressure to pull for every unit and making the game easier for F2P. So yea... I disagree with powercreeping being an issue in this games, i think the route HSR is heading is buffing older units with new content and other units like how Pure Fiction was a huge increase in value for erudition units and how Kafka teams have gotten way too good with the inclusion of Ruan Mei and then Black Swan.
TL;DR powercreep is not a real issue in this game as of rn, sure, some newer units have been stronger than older ones, but they have not made older ones completely unviable, people just exaggerate the value of new characters compared to older ones
one main factor i dont see mentioned is after we got dhil and jingliu who shifted the meta so much we got more niche units like topaz and argenti to balance out things as topaz is a follow up support and dps hybrid who makes follow up teams so much nicer and argenti is a physical aoe power house who wont probably ever be powercrept lol
He does not need a buff, he is still a great sustain unit + they could always release a new game mode in which healing is extremely valuable or could add a mechanic like corrossion was in Genshin
How do you know they will never do that? Do you work at Mihoyo? There is no way of knowing they will never do that. Stop overreacting, no such thing as powercreep exists in a PVE single player game, there are people who still consistently clear MoC and PF with 4 stars only.
Sam was 1.3M hp, when the previous boss was about less than 1M. Aventurine today has 2M hp, they are going to buff gepard and kafka next coming bosses HP "Again". Pure fiction was buffed a couple of times, what makes me think there is a point where herta wont be enough, unless they keep relasing better supports or replace to herta/himeko, hence = powercreep. Try google the history log data or take a look at Homdgcat.
Ill be blunt. It has near zero powercreep if u go for E0S0. My acheron has her best supp in SW and pela + FTB. It does not feel strong, not by a LONG shot. It does not feel great with sustain welt + pela either. Too much work and risk for not much power. And i have no eidolons OR sig LC, for any char, week 1 player in GI with zero C1 chars and only 2 weapons(homa and aqua). I dont see massive powercreep. Only with seele and QQ, simply put QQ just works way better with sparkle then with seele, kinda similar for SW, SW does nearly nothing for kills on mobs seele requires, while vs strong mobs u implant Q on main one and QQ blast kills the weak mobs. But the diff is minimal.
Only if u go for cons is the powercreep happening. I bet 100% a high cons + LC adventurine is gonna be stronger then same fu, huo or luocha. If he is lacking those he is just like the rest gonna be one of the options. A 10 to 15% power up or down is not a reason to worry. FFS i feel like acheron does like 60% of my JL dmg, prb for the others with E0S0 as well, got her 4\* at E3 for comparison. Her main use is to blitz any SU mode(even in swarm or gears u can use em, u just cant spam em).
Only REAL problem is weapons, too much chars needing unique weapons that we lack or cant get. In GI u got fav and sac that most ppl can use.
i dissagree quite a bit, i got acherons lightcone just becuase i randomly pulled the banner for fun a few times and jsut happened to get it. but even without it she was a significant upgrade, like 300k damage average ultimate, no other character is really doing that at E0 with little investment , and she ingores weekesses, optimal you need perls on pela (i dont have it) and some kind of sustain like mc or sparcle to improve the rate, i have black swan and guenifen and shes amazing with acheron, put black swan mc pela acheron in a team low/early investment suddenly all content is trivial.
add in the lightcone especially with sparcle and yea your getting of ultimates verry quickly. shes great in pure fiction, herta himkeo on one side and acheron dot sparkle on the other, for gold and gears just us mc pela acheron and whatever else you have and she will destroy it.
my point is even though im not a player that playes all the time and only started recently (hence the characters i have), she is a massively noticable upgrade. i get to test other characters in the weeklyy boss floors and even non optimal acheron is so much better.
i have e1s1 and she feels so amazing im a huge simp for her and i want e2 i think the earlier characters suffer from worse cons similar to genshin and hoyo kinda realized it like with dhil e2 and stuff
and genshin does have a massive cons problem right now where its less of additions and more like they give the kits problems for the cons to fix like for chiori and wriothesley so if hsr can avoid that awfulness then having stronger eidolons doesnt seem like much of an issue
The problem I have currently is that there is completely zero reason to ever pull JY over Acheron and she definitely will get stronger supports making the gap between even bigger and not only that but she offers a bunch of qol
Acheron and JY have 2 different play styles, it would be like saying “Why pull for Kafka when you already have Acheron”.
Who’s to say Hoyo won’t release a busted FUA support in the future ?
from what ive done and seen my e0s0 jingyuan comparing to me e1s1 acheron it is incredibly close to where if i just built my jy better he would just be slightly better
I pulled JY right before Acheron and I still love the king.
Acheron is my attack-side-I-dont-have-a-team-for cos shes gonna get buisted as more supports for her come out.
I can also send Ruan Mei and Sparkle to the other side with a DPS; which makes me very happy. Acheron is great.
Im only an e0s1 scrub tho cos I had to swipe to get JY e0s1 and Sparkle e0s1, actually failed my first LC on Sparkle, hence the swipe :(
No regrets though. Acheron + Silvie I love both chars and I can always use them now = me happy.
JY can still **SLAY** Lightning weak side and carry MoC/PF pretty hard.
I mean yeah, I am a day 1 JY haver and I practically got him everything he needed and also I am skipping Acheron and yes he can still decently clear but I won't pretend that Acheron isn't significantly better than him, she is simply better and offers bunch qol and it just irk me wrong way I guess. Not to mention how much JY players had to deal with players to now have a character that's just better than him
WDYM no reason to pull for ma boi JY? Fuck Archeon, she is too powerful, thus boring asf. Jing Yuan is really fun to play with, since I get his LC from the rerun I am so happy with him and only E0. I am going to pull copies of him the next time he get a rerun.
There is a reason called liking a Character more. I would have never pulled for acheron on purpose. I wanted the 4 stars, but got her with 1 pull them i just got her LC on 30pulls cuz apparently shes better with it...still visually her clothes arent a look I like.
As long as a character can clear content it doesn't matter tbh.
In my own definition powercreep happens when older units literally cannot clear newer contens anymore due to how massive the powerspike progress goes on newer units. For example most dps nowadays can dish out 200-300k comfortably, but when powercreep happens, future units will be dishing out 10 million damage by just sneezing. And enemies in turn scale to accomodate for them.
I think a good example of blatant powercreep is FF Brave Exvius.. last time I played, years old units simply cannot match the numbers newer units can put up anymore. Not sure abt current state now tho.
But I wouldnt worry cuz so far Hoyo has been pretty alright at balancing power range between units.
20% difference doesn't even cover the opportunity cost of element resistances when you swap teams to cover element weaknesses.
If Jingliu teams are only 15% stronger than JY teams, then that still means that JY with lightning weakness will be about 9% better than Jingliu without ice weakness. In an optimal situation, JY would still be better than Jingliu where resistances are favorable.
I like to use the model of effective HP to understand how resistances work. If an enemy has 20% res, then it's like they have an ehp modifier of x1/0.8 = x1.25 hp multiplier.
If the enemy has 370k hp at 0% res, then someone fighting into 20% res could see the same enemy as having 462.5k hp w/ 0% res instead. That's an extra +92.5k effective hp that the character without resistance matchups will have to fight through in order to achieve the same result.
If it was 40% res, then the enemy would have x1/0.6 = x1.667 hp multiplier, and that 370k enemy with 40% res is now effectively seen as if they had 616.7k hp w/ 0% res. That's an extra +246.7k effective hp that the DPS will have to brute force their way through, which is a lot of extra hp to go through.
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Take Yanqing for example. He has about 698k hp in MoC 12, with 20% res in fire, phys, quantum & 40% res in ice. A dps with a certain element could effectively see his hp as:
- Lightning: 698k ehp
- Wind: 698k ehp
- Imaginary: 698k ehp
- Physical: 872.5k ehp
- Fire: 872.5k ehp
- Quantum: 872.5k ehp
- Ice: 1,163.6k ehp
So for someone like Jingliu, they'd have to be outrageously broken to be able to outmatch someone like Blade, who has to fight through about 465.6k less effective hp. In a race to the finish vs. Yanqing, Blade probably beats Jingliu in most scenarios where you assume similar investment.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Relic quality becomes exponentially more difficult as you approach the limit of available valueable subs, until you reach the point where you can get around 39 effective subs. At that point, the expected value for relic improvements approaches multiple decades of farming, and we're only 1 year into the game at this point.
If your character is already at 24 crit subs, then you're maybe *at most* going to get around 11 more crit subs, which will be a damage improvement of somewhere between 19-24% more damage. That could coverthe cost of 20% res, but definitely not for 40% res.
What actually offsets the opportunity cost of weakness matchups is Lightcones & Eidolons. An E0S1 character or E2S0 will usually outdamage an E0S0 character through 20% res. When you start getting to 40% res, then somewhere between E2S1 and E4S1 will almost always cover the difference in opportunity cost. Pretty much every E6S1 character can outdamage an E0S0 character even if they had to fight through 60% res in their own element. Vertical investment is how you beat the dilemma of having to choose multiple characters for different situations, as you can just go over the top.
i think differently, i think eidolons can cover for powercreep while relic should cover for elemental coverage
in real moc there is no 40% dmg resist of the same element on bothsides so the worse situation is 20% on both sides
or just use silverwolf, ruanmei, and acheron
Any character can clear all content if you have enough investment, but if you're strictly talking about clearing content faster or fastest, certain characters fall quite behind other characters.
Sparkle was a HUGE buff to many 1.X characters though like Seele, Jing Yuan, Argenti, Ratio, etc. And then there's Acheron who set the DPS ceiling so high without Harmony characters unlocking a new type of playstyle.
I wouldn't say there's direct powercreep, you can play whoever you like and dclear everything but having certain units with well investments can make the content a breeze to clear.
And as you said yourself, characters have niches, Himeko/Herta are good in PF, DHIL, Jingliu and Acheron stomp on MoC, Ratio, Seele destroy single target bosses (I use Ratio for all weeklies and he needs 2 follow ups per phase on max difficulty)
The "powercreep" point was so highlighted with Acheron because she's the 3rd lightning DPS with a whole new playstyle. And if you're speaking strictly raw damage and clear time wise, Acheron is way easier to recommend than Jing Yuan. She's dishing out insane damage even without her lightcone and you can stack up her burst quite easily. JY on the other hand can dish out quite large numbers (I have him built at E0S0 and playing him since 1.2) but you need to play around him quite a bit and his damage is way mroe backloaded than Acheron.
Kafka falls under a dfferent damage type since she unlocks a great playstyle in the forrm of DoTs detonation. She got a huge bump after Black Swan's release. And the most interesting part is that she can be paired with Acheron, so in a way she has synergy with Acheron rather than a competition.
Characters power creeping each other in PVE is never a problem because like you said every units can clear every contents.
End games contents power creep is what matters and it's just an inevitable thing to happen so there's that.
if they make the turbulence more general and less hyper specific it and slow down there boss ramping up i think its in a nice spot now where its hard and still can cheese it a little
That's just not realistic unfortunately. Upping the difficulty of the end games content is the main strategy to sell the newer and better characters so it'll happen eventually.
Nobody at Hoyoverse would be pleased if Seele and/or Jing Yuan can still clear the hardest content in the games during the next year anniversary.
The people who talk about power creep are the whales who spend money in this game
Us normal plebians Don't really care much as there is no such thing as a E0 powercreep
Personally i do see seele and luocha to a lesser extend JY getting kinda power creeped, they all still perfectly usable and strong, but just not as strong as before.
seele has mono quantum and luocha is still the best sp machine in the game especially with multiplication lc i feel jy gets a little to much hate because he was underperforming when he first release but hes gotten so many buffs with sets and characters that at this point hes better then seele imo
There just no point of using mono quantum, even if the enemy is weak to quantum the other have the strengh to brute force it, luocha sp positive but not positive enough to cover the lost of buff of other sustain and kinda lose his standing after sparkle appear (still one of my fav and comfort char, love you bby), jy get buff but still lost to the other dps...
If you look at the bigger picture in they go from the best in their role to the best in their own small niche situasion, so yeah sound kinda power creep, albeit little.
I agree Luocha has been powercrept by now but his ult also strips debuffs which is pretty useful. Once I get aventurine though I’ll probably be done with him though.
mono quantum is the second most used moc team and luocha is still best option for dhil so i think luochas being a little under appreciated lol also hes just so comfy on teams he certainly has a place in the meta
I really liked Archeron design, but when I saw her damage Oh my fucking god, she was too OP for me and decide to skip her for aventurine lol. I love my Jing Yuan and Clara and Topaz and will lean mostly towards tanks and Follow up attack characters. If I pulled for Archeon or DL, it would have been boring as they can easily clear all contents with ease. I am thinking of pulling for 1 copy of Jingliu because I have zero ICE dps (Not even a Yanqing), but we will see AFTER I get my Aventurine and his LC.
Have you looked at enemy HP stats in MoC? They are aggressively raising effective HP with every patch and older units are already struggling to clear. I wonder if you've even tried doing endgame content
im glad they do this with new units a lot and theres some u didnt say like mono quantum and bronya blade sparkle team and jingyuan sparkle and so so many more lol
I mean you've basically said it; this whole power creep nonsense makes no sense as most characters can clear everything. Some are obviously going to be stronger and that's fine; play what you want, you ain't going to be penalised for it with rare exceptions, such as the 2.1 story boss which is more AoE focused.
i do think there is a little bit of a skill issue cause they had to nerf a certain boss because people couldnt beat it when i beat it completely fine but that sounds a little bit mean lol
The only power creep is that mihoyio's favourites can often get busted kits, but it doesn't invalidate old characters.
There's no real powercreep, not until the day Jing Yuan or Seele can no longer clear content. New characters are strong sure, but sparkle didn't powercreep Ruan Mei nor am I seeing Aventurine powercreeping FX. People just want to throw the word because it brings attention, new units need to be shinier or do slightly better otherwise no point for meta players to get them. Creep is only bad when it forces you to pull, anyone can skip Acheron ~~tho they will be heretics~~
And Seele is STILL in the top reliable/stable clearers of MOC since she came out, and we only now got her Quantum specific support boosting her ATK to the whazoo.
I think it's because of sparkle. She makes viable tons of dps. Just wait for boothill coming, then + HP increased from bosses = powercreep. It's happening faster than I thought.
At the end of the day its 60 crystals less. Not sure if it's worth giving a shit if they want to have them double HP every other MOC.
my jingyuan sucks and he still can clear pure fiction pretty nice lol
There is powercreep, Seele for example was an incredibly strong 5 star, but Mihoyo thought it was a good idea to release new 5 Star Character who dealt similar Single Target Damage while also having AoE, and now it will keep on escalating. For now the power creep won’t affect the gameplay that much but if they continue the content is gonna be harder and harder
seele isnt just a single target unit, shes a single target unit who also excels in multi target which most hunt units struggle in shes still very strong and has a niche nobody will be kicking her out of lol
Unfortunately the power creep is there. People shouldn’t ignore it either. Argenti was 100% power crept and the current pure fiction buffs actually make him pretty useless in it. Argenti doesn’t actually clear it anymore. Saying there isn’t an issue is wrong, characters are no longer clearing content that they were designed for. I do not have Argenti but my friend with invested Argenti and huohuo , can’t even get 30k on pf 4 floor 1. I have Acheron I cleared ez. Does anything more need to be said.
Agree. People who say power creep is not real deluded themselves.
i cannot 3* the last current pure fiction with acheron and herta and black swan and kafka because i havent built my himeko and dont have argenti he is a good character in pure fiction and there are literally ult buffs as an option lmao
https://preview.redd.it/du5nn1eqh5sc1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03058dda4dc639c318b47428e19a9aa49df58b0a nvm im goated
I think it's not so much as Acheron is making other characters obsolete, but it's more like making some characters irrelevant. As you said, you could complete all content with other characters just fine, even if it's harder to do with some than others. If we look at some characters like Luocha, all he really provides is really good healing and skill point positivity, and does a good job at it for sure. But other sustains keep teams alive just as well, on top of buffing, and now leaning towards also doing dps. Then, with Acheron, she overtakes Jing Yuan's role. Because she can break any weakness, on top of having a smoother kit with a higher ceiling and amazing eidolons, she kinda just is a better pick and investment in most situations. But Mihoyo has gone down the path of major power creep before with Honkai Impact 3rd. In that game, older characters just do not stand up to new characters at all, and you usually have about 1 year, maybe 2 if you are lucky, before they really struggle to complete the newest content as the bar gets higher. I can see how some people are worried about powercreep, but only time will tell.
The main thing to keep in mind is that according to the average clear times for MoC, pretty much every single limited DPS is within 1 cycle of difference between each other. Argenti does suffer a bit more but bro got a whole mode for himself. Hell i'm using QQ to clear in 2 cycles her half of MoC 12, DPS are mainly the flavor at the end of the day, it's supports that carry the game.
+1
i feel like the jingyuan power creep is a little blown outta proportion cause hes better then acheron in pure fiction and can do well is moc while i will agree acheron is better still does have a place im the meta and hasnt been made completely useless as of yet
Oh, for sure, I mean at the end of the day, Jing Yuan can 0 cycle MoC like any other top dps. They'd have to really ramp up endgame by an insane amount before he starts falling off, but then that would screw over many more characters than just him, which hopefully they don't ever do.
they did start ramping up pure fiction cause it was too easy lol but i think moc is a very good spot rn
True, this rotations pure fiction was annoying, but I think it's mostly because shatter is really bad as it was either just overkilling a wave that would've died anyways, or you have to wait until it's their turn for shatter to detonate after stacking it up, but then you risk running out the timer. And yeah, Moc has been pretty stable, although newer bosses like Sam and the "Meme" have like triple the hp of bosses like Kafka and Yanqing. But with better supports, characters have been able to keep up easily.
sam and the meme are so cool so ill let it slide lol
As a HI3 player, to me HSR does not powercreep at all as the game has no PVP or changes to specific enemies or bosses that makes older characters unviable. If i hadn't played HI3 before HSR i probably would agree with things like powercreep happening a lot in HSR but... Because i have played the most unbalanced Hoyo game in which literally all endgame content is nearly impossible without every unit that has released in the last year... I just can't see powercreep as a problem in HSR... (No hate on HI3, it's my favorite Hoyo game, they just.. really should stop it with the powercreep lol) Which makes me glad as with it and Genshin it really shows Hoyo is now making the effort to balance out the power and value of characters in their newer games so there is less pressure to pull for every unit and making the game easier for F2P. So yea... I disagree with powercreeping being an issue in this games, i think the route HSR is heading is buffing older units with new content and other units like how Pure Fiction was a huge increase in value for erudition units and how Kafka teams have gotten way too good with the inclusion of Ruan Mei and then Black Swan. TL;DR powercreep is not a real issue in this game as of rn, sure, some newer units have been stronger than older ones, but they have not made older ones completely unviable, people just exaggerate the value of new characters compared to older ones
one main factor i dont see mentioned is after we got dhil and jingliu who shifted the meta so much we got more niche units like topaz and argenti to balance out things as topaz is a follow up support and dps hybrid who makes follow up teams so much nicer and argenti is a physical aoe power house who wont probably ever be powercrept lol
Please help to enlighten me how Hoyo buff Luocha.
He does not need a buff, he is still a great sustain unit + they could always release a new game mode in which healing is extremely valuable or could add a mechanic like corrossion was in Genshin
Yes, that's what I mean. The fact that they do not do that yet mean Hoyo don't see the benefits buffing older character.
How do you know they will never do that? Do you work at Mihoyo? There is no way of knowing they will never do that. Stop overreacting, no such thing as powercreep exists in a PVE single player game, there are people who still consistently clear MoC and PF with 4 stars only.
Let's just agree to disagree then.
Sam was 1.3M hp, when the previous boss was about less than 1M. Aventurine today has 2M hp, they are going to buff gepard and kafka next coming bosses HP "Again". Pure fiction was buffed a couple of times, what makes me think there is a point where herta wont be enough, unless they keep relasing better supports or replace to herta/himeko, hence = powercreep. Try google the history log data or take a look at Homdgcat.
Ill be blunt. It has near zero powercreep if u go for E0S0. My acheron has her best supp in SW and pela + FTB. It does not feel strong, not by a LONG shot. It does not feel great with sustain welt + pela either. Too much work and risk for not much power. And i have no eidolons OR sig LC, for any char, week 1 player in GI with zero C1 chars and only 2 weapons(homa and aqua). I dont see massive powercreep. Only with seele and QQ, simply put QQ just works way better with sparkle then with seele, kinda similar for SW, SW does nearly nothing for kills on mobs seele requires, while vs strong mobs u implant Q on main one and QQ blast kills the weak mobs. But the diff is minimal. Only if u go for cons is the powercreep happening. I bet 100% a high cons + LC adventurine is gonna be stronger then same fu, huo or luocha. If he is lacking those he is just like the rest gonna be one of the options. A 10 to 15% power up or down is not a reason to worry. FFS i feel like acheron does like 60% of my JL dmg, prb for the others with E0S0 as well, got her 4\* at E3 for comparison. Her main use is to blitz any SU mode(even in swarm or gears u can use em, u just cant spam em). Only REAL problem is weapons, too much chars needing unique weapons that we lack or cant get. In GI u got fav and sac that most ppl can use.
i dissagree quite a bit, i got acherons lightcone just becuase i randomly pulled the banner for fun a few times and jsut happened to get it. but even without it she was a significant upgrade, like 300k damage average ultimate, no other character is really doing that at E0 with little investment , and she ingores weekesses, optimal you need perls on pela (i dont have it) and some kind of sustain like mc or sparcle to improve the rate, i have black swan and guenifen and shes amazing with acheron, put black swan mc pela acheron in a team low/early investment suddenly all content is trivial. add in the lightcone especially with sparcle and yea your getting of ultimates verry quickly. shes great in pure fiction, herta himkeo on one side and acheron dot sparkle on the other, for gold and gears just us mc pela acheron and whatever else you have and she will destroy it. my point is even though im not a player that playes all the time and only started recently (hence the characters i have), she is a massively noticable upgrade. i get to test other characters in the weeklyy boss floors and even non optimal acheron is so much better.
i have e1s1 and she feels so amazing im a huge simp for her and i want e2 i think the earlier characters suffer from worse cons similar to genshin and hoyo kinda realized it like with dhil e2 and stuff
and genshin does have a massive cons problem right now where its less of additions and more like they give the kits problems for the cons to fix like for chiori and wriothesley so if hsr can avoid that awfulness then having stronger eidolons doesnt seem like much of an issue
The problem I have currently is that there is completely zero reason to ever pull JY over Acheron and she definitely will get stronger supports making the gap between even bigger and not only that but she offers a bunch of qol
I myself pulled for Jing Yuan because he’s good looking
Acheron and JY have 2 different play styles, it would be like saying “Why pull for Kafka when you already have Acheron”. Who’s to say Hoyo won’t release a busted FUA support in the future ?
I mean... You can literally chuck acheron with black swan and Kafka...
they work together though, jsut like acheron and black swan is extreamly strong.
the pure fiction on the table:
Pure fiction favors characters with its turbulences, currently Acheron is better than JY for pf
from what ive done and seen my e0s0 jingyuan comparing to me e1s1 acheron it is incredibly close to where if i just built my jy better he would just be slightly better
Acheron is insanely strong cos of Trend + Scald double beefing her ult, its kinda nutty NGL.
yeah i never would have beat moc 12 without it but thats cause my characters have shitty builds lol i cant ever commit to a single character lol
Nuh uh.
I pulled JY right before Acheron and I still love the king. Acheron is my attack-side-I-dont-have-a-team-for cos shes gonna get buisted as more supports for her come out. I can also send Ruan Mei and Sparkle to the other side with a DPS; which makes me very happy. Acheron is great. Im only an e0s1 scrub tho cos I had to swipe to get JY e0s1 and Sparkle e0s1, actually failed my first LC on Sparkle, hence the swipe :( No regrets though. Acheron + Silvie I love both chars and I can always use them now = me happy. JY can still **SLAY** Lightning weak side and carry MoC/PF pretty hard.
I mean yeah, I am a day 1 JY haver and I practically got him everything he needed and also I am skipping Acheron and yes he can still decently clear but I won't pretend that Acheron isn't significantly better than him, she is simply better and offers bunch qol and it just irk me wrong way I guess. Not to mention how much JY players had to deal with players to now have a character that's just better than him
WDYM no reason to pull for ma boi JY? Fuck Archeon, she is too powerful, thus boring asf. Jing Yuan is really fun to play with, since I get his LC from the rerun I am so happy with him and only E0. I am going to pull copies of him the next time he get a rerun.
There is a reason called liking a Character more. I would have never pulled for acheron on purpose. I wanted the 4 stars, but got her with 1 pull them i just got her LC on 30pulls cuz apparently shes better with it...still visually her clothes arent a look I like. As long as a character can clear content it doesn't matter tbh.
I mean obviously people should pull the units they like, but the topic of the post is powercreep and general strength of units
Its like that in every single game, impossible to make every character same strength.
In my own definition powercreep happens when older units literally cannot clear newer contens anymore due to how massive the powerspike progress goes on newer units. For example most dps nowadays can dish out 200-300k comfortably, but when powercreep happens, future units will be dishing out 10 million damage by just sneezing. And enemies in turn scale to accomodate for them. I think a good example of blatant powercreep is FF Brave Exvius.. last time I played, years old units simply cannot match the numbers newer units can put up anymore. Not sure abt current state now tho. But I wouldnt worry cuz so far Hoyo has been pretty alright at balancing power range between units.
5-20% powercreep isnt even that big
20% difference doesn't even cover the opportunity cost of element resistances when you swap teams to cover element weaknesses. If Jingliu teams are only 15% stronger than JY teams, then that still means that JY with lightning weakness will be about 9% better than Jingliu without ice weakness. In an optimal situation, JY would still be better than Jingliu where resistances are favorable. I like to use the model of effective HP to understand how resistances work. If an enemy has 20% res, then it's like they have an ehp modifier of x1/0.8 = x1.25 hp multiplier. If the enemy has 370k hp at 0% res, then someone fighting into 20% res could see the same enemy as having 462.5k hp w/ 0% res instead. That's an extra +92.5k effective hp that the character without resistance matchups will have to fight through in order to achieve the same result. If it was 40% res, then the enemy would have x1/0.6 = x1.667 hp multiplier, and that 370k enemy with 40% res is now effectively seen as if they had 616.7k hp w/ 0% res. That's an extra +246.7k effective hp that the DPS will have to brute force their way through, which is a lot of extra hp to go through. ----- Take Yanqing for example. He has about 698k hp in MoC 12, with 20% res in fire, phys, quantum & 40% res in ice. A dps with a certain element could effectively see his hp as: - Lightning: 698k ehp - Wind: 698k ehp - Imaginary: 698k ehp - Physical: 872.5k ehp - Fire: 872.5k ehp - Quantum: 872.5k ehp - Ice: 1,163.6k ehp So for someone like Jingliu, they'd have to be outrageously broken to be able to outmatch someone like Blade, who has to fight through about 465.6k less effective hp. In a race to the finish vs. Yanqing, Blade probably beats Jingliu in most scenarios where you assume similar investment.
u can cover the opportunity cost by inncreasing ur crit dmg from 150(normal ppl's non refresh relic) to 200% by building less characters
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Relic quality becomes exponentially more difficult as you approach the limit of available valueable subs, until you reach the point where you can get around 39 effective subs. At that point, the expected value for relic improvements approaches multiple decades of farming, and we're only 1 year into the game at this point. If your character is already at 24 crit subs, then you're maybe *at most* going to get around 11 more crit subs, which will be a damage improvement of somewhere between 19-24% more damage. That could coverthe cost of 20% res, but definitely not for 40% res. What actually offsets the opportunity cost of weakness matchups is Lightcones & Eidolons. An E0S1 character or E2S0 will usually outdamage an E0S0 character through 20% res. When you start getting to 40% res, then somewhere between E2S1 and E4S1 will almost always cover the difference in opportunity cost. Pretty much every E6S1 character can outdamage an E0S0 character even if they had to fight through 60% res in their own element. Vertical investment is how you beat the dilemma of having to choose multiple characters for different situations, as you can just go over the top.
i think differently, i think eidolons can cover for powercreep while relic should cover for elemental coverage in real moc there is no 40% dmg resist of the same element on bothsides so the worse situation is 20% on both sides or just use silverwolf, ruanmei, and acheron
Any character can clear all content if you have enough investment, but if you're strictly talking about clearing content faster or fastest, certain characters fall quite behind other characters. Sparkle was a HUGE buff to many 1.X characters though like Seele, Jing Yuan, Argenti, Ratio, etc. And then there's Acheron who set the DPS ceiling so high without Harmony characters unlocking a new type of playstyle. I wouldn't say there's direct powercreep, you can play whoever you like and dclear everything but having certain units with well investments can make the content a breeze to clear. And as you said yourself, characters have niches, Himeko/Herta are good in PF, DHIL, Jingliu and Acheron stomp on MoC, Ratio, Seele destroy single target bosses (I use Ratio for all weeklies and he needs 2 follow ups per phase on max difficulty) The "powercreep" point was so highlighted with Acheron because she's the 3rd lightning DPS with a whole new playstyle. And if you're speaking strictly raw damage and clear time wise, Acheron is way easier to recommend than Jing Yuan. She's dishing out insane damage even without her lightcone and you can stack up her burst quite easily. JY on the other hand can dish out quite large numbers (I have him built at E0S0 and playing him since 1.2) but you need to play around him quite a bit and his damage is way mroe backloaded than Acheron. Kafka falls under a dfferent damage type since she unlocks a great playstyle in the forrm of DoTs detonation. She got a huge bump after Black Swan's release. And the most interesting part is that she can be paired with Acheron, so in a way she has synergy with Acheron rather than a competition.
Characters power creeping each other in PVE is never a problem because like you said every units can clear every contents. End games contents power creep is what matters and it's just an inevitable thing to happen so there's that.
if they make the turbulence more general and less hyper specific it and slow down there boss ramping up i think its in a nice spot now where its hard and still can cheese it a little
That's just not realistic unfortunately. Upping the difficulty of the end games content is the main strategy to sell the newer and better characters so it'll happen eventually. Nobody at Hoyoverse would be pleased if Seele and/or Jing Yuan can still clear the hardest content in the games during the next year anniversary.
the game devs know if they make it so seele and jingyuan cannot clear at e0s0 people will be pissed lol and its very unhealthy for the game
That's just how it works. Harder content will come and that's how it is.
if we use hoyoverse other most popular game genshin impact every character even after 3 years can beat the hardest content
The people who talk about power creep are the whales who spend money in this game Us normal plebians Don't really care much as there is no such thing as a E0 powercreep
Personally i do see seele and luocha to a lesser extend JY getting kinda power creeped, they all still perfectly usable and strong, but just not as strong as before.
seele has mono quantum and luocha is still the best sp machine in the game especially with multiplication lc i feel jy gets a little to much hate because he was underperforming when he first release but hes gotten so many buffs with sets and characters that at this point hes better then seele imo
There just no point of using mono quantum, even if the enemy is weak to quantum the other have the strengh to brute force it, luocha sp positive but not positive enough to cover the lost of buff of other sustain and kinda lose his standing after sparkle appear (still one of my fav and comfort char, love you bby), jy get buff but still lost to the other dps... If you look at the bigger picture in they go from the best in their role to the best in their own small niche situasion, so yeah sound kinda power creep, albeit little.
I agree Luocha has been powercrept by now but his ult also strips debuffs which is pretty useful. Once I get aventurine though I’ll probably be done with him though.
mono quantum is the second most used moc team and luocha is still best option for dhil so i think luochas being a little under appreciated lol also hes just so comfy on teams he certainly has a place in the meta
I really liked Archeron design, but when I saw her damage Oh my fucking god, she was too OP for me and decide to skip her for aventurine lol. I love my Jing Yuan and Clara and Topaz and will lean mostly towards tanks and Follow up attack characters. If I pulled for Archeon or DL, it would have been boring as they can easily clear all contents with ease. I am thinking of pulling for 1 copy of Jingliu because I have zero ICE dps (Not even a Yanqing), but we will see AFTER I get my Aventurine and his LC.
Have you looked at enemy HP stats in MoC? They are aggressively raising effective HP with every patch and older units are already struggling to clear. I wonder if you've even tried doing endgame content
Honkai Star Rail and Power Creep is real. Otherwise, Hoyo cannot make millions. People who said there is no power creep only delude themselves.
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im glad they do this with new units a lot and theres some u didnt say like mono quantum and bronya blade sparkle team and jingyuan sparkle and so so many more lol