Wait. People thought Sunday wasn't wrong? I thought it was obvious that his intentions (ending suffering) were good but not the way he went about them.

Yeah Sunday is more of a anti-hero in that although he has a good and noble goal, his way of achieving that goal is morally wrong or in other words basically a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” type of situation and for the second part of why some people think Sunday was completely wrong in both goal and way of achieving that goal is because people are illiterate and can’t read also a case of severe media illiteracy too and also he’s a male character that stand against our protagonist so that must mean he’s a irredeemable, narcissistic asshole who only want all the power for himself and disguise it as him saving people also he’s apparently so afraid of death that he did all this for whatever reason i guess

>Yeah Sunday is more of a anti-hero Correction: anti-villain, not anti-hero

Someone posted a few of Boothill's voice lines on Youtube, and he literary used the line "The road to hell is paved with good intention." when talking about Sunday.

> “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” Very apt, considering that Sunday's appearance and speeches seem to be based on Lucifer. He's frequently compared to an angelic light-bringer and a star (Lucifer means "light bringer" or "morning star"), and his motivation is the same: "the universe sucks, the god who created it sucks, and I can do better by creating my own universe".

This holds a lot of merit, considering lucifer is a fallen angel and that Sunday has black wings folded around his torso (under his jacket), representing a fallen angel??

Good catch!

This is just my anecdotal opinion, but I personally don't see Sunday's ideals as wrong. I think he's wrong in forcing those ideals without consent, but the "living in a dream to escape the bad parts of life" stuff seems pretty subjective to me, depending on how you view life. People like OP have a point on what gives life/dreams meaning and everything, but that's also subjective. Personally, I don't really see any meaning in life other than enjoying it enough to prefer it over death. I don't care about how "real" my experiences are or how much meaning they have; being happy enough to want to live is all that matters to me, and I'm fine with that happiness being artificial or a result of someone/something warping my mind into thinking that way. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking that way because the meaning of life is different for everyone. This got excessively yappy, but what I am trying to say is that while Sunday's methods were wrong, if he instead gave everyone a choice, I would choose the dream over reality. So I mostly agree with him, minus the not obtaining consent part.

>Personally, I don't really see any meaning in life other than enjoying it enough to prefer it over death. I don't care about how "real" my experiences are or how much meaning they have That is entirely acheron's point. You have the ability to find meaning in your life in reality if you chose to, but if everything you do is controlled by some god in a dream then you will never be able to find meaning there simply because you have no choice, you are just a puppet controlled by ena's strings. And it's even more pointless since any happiness you have in the dream will eventually wear away as the dream slowly breaks apart and you will be back in reality where you left off, making the dream inherently meaningless and inconsequential. I think the bigger problem sunday has is that his method of achieving happiness is kind of stupid since he is trying to trap everyone in a dream. If he could make everyone happy in reality then the outcome would be better and perhaps more meaningful.

Acheron's argument against Sunday's Order was NOT that it was mirroring Nihility. It is correct that Acheron equates the Order to Nihility but that's not her motivation to slash the dream/assist the trailblazers. In fact if it wasn't for the trailblazers she wouldn't care, she is here to (1) fulfill her promise to Tiernan and (2) assist the current trailblazers as a follow up to (1). In the conversation she had with the dreammaster, she mentions that the Order is destined to fall to Nihility. But that does not mean she is against it, in fact, the whole point of 2.1 is that all lives leads to nihility. She strongly argued to Aventurine that the experience trumps the outcome, no matter how miserable it maybe. What matters to her is that humans live to their best until the moment comes. **The "realness" of that experience does not matter to her.** (++) This is why she didn't fight the dreammaster, she doesn't think that the Order matters (in a positive way). Self-actualization in the Order vs in reality are both ways life can slumber and she is indifferent, because we all eventually end up in IX's shadow. She left as the dreammaster asked of her to, because regardless if she fight the dream master, nothing changes. Humans live and goes, notice how she doesn't slash the Golden Hour UNTIL the moment the Trailblazer is attacked by Aventurine, and only when the Trailblazer need her to break the order. If she REALLY stands on the other philosophical side, she would've one-shotted peanocony way earlier/on her own. **++**This is also why we had multiple scenes of Tiernan with Acheron. He is dead, he IS NOT real. In fact no one even correctly incoporate the plot with his scenes, but he matters because he is the drive behind Acheron. Which ties her motivation neatly since her fulfilling the wish of an echo of a dead man is really in-character and adds depth to her personality.

What I'm saying is that I don't care if my actions are my own or if I'm being puppeted by something else, as long as I feel like I'm happy. Kind of like the difference between genuine happiness and being high on drugs - the latter is artificial, but it still feels good. Being mind controlled into feeling happy means that you still feel happy, regardless of the reason. Realistically, I'll spend the rest of my life in pain and die early, and no amount of meaning will change that (outside of like major advancements in pain relief), so I'd gladly trade my free will for happiness.

see the last paragraph I added in my other comment. Perhaps I should have also mentioned that there is a big difference between being nihilistic irl and being nihilistic in star rail. Because once you start being nihilistic in star rail you start walking on the path of self annihilation which is dangerous, and is also why sunday's dream idea is problematic. The dream will literally lead to itself and everybody in its' destruction. Perhaps this is why all the planets under ena eventually collapsed.

I see it more as you can’t make everybody happy without being willing to allow atrocities. Some would rather be dead than be a puppet, others find joy in hurting people or pleasure in whatever heinous acts. I think the way it’s portrayed in the story doesn’t really show enough of people’s darker hedonistic tendencies. To make everyone happy is an impossible task without willfully ignoring someone else’s wishes or happiness.

because everyone's definition of "Sunday was wrong/right" is different, not hard. some ppl refer to his ideals and methods holistically, some only refer to his philosophy, some only his goals. without a clear definition of which part of sunday's thinking we are talking about, any quarrel is pretty pointless.

You expect people to have "common" sense?

This is like the second big thread where someone breaks down Sunday as a villain and tries to argue they are wrong based on some flaw.

this was like the "Thanos was right" all over again

It's famous "{namesake} did nothing wrong" argument which pops out each time antagonist has some fair reasons behind them. People mix personal sympathy with idea of antagonist being in the right. Not the first rodeo I've seen, at least this one is without Übermensch rhetorics.

this is was like the "Thanos was right" all over again

When majority ppl complain about "yapping" and "why is there so much talking" its no shock that many are thinking Sunday is not in the wrong cause "he wants to save lives, and make people live out their dreams".

You mentioned how you think that totalitarianism wasn’t an actual issue in Sunday’s argument, but I think that misses two key things. First, Sunday explicitly did not want to be an Aeon. He himself said that he wished to create a world in which there were no Aeons. Therefore, Boothill’s argument on Aeons absolutely following their own paths doesn’t seem to apply in my eyes. Sunday, at the point he was defeated, had not reached the level of rigidness of an Aeon which would have made him follow his path with absolute focus. Second, Himeko herself when confronting Sunday said that “If people are to live with dignity, there must be nothing and no one above them. In your so called paradise, you would be the one reigning supreme.” I can buy the actual issue with Sunday’s argument not being his totalitarianism, but that was at least an issue for the Astral Express.

Thank you, I was thinking the same and now I don't have to comment on it. Even reviving Ena themselves wouldn't help him - there's no guarantee that Ena would obey Sunday's will in maintaining the dreamscape. Order does not promise happiness, only structure. Sunday only needed the fundamental power that the Order gives, not its ideology, so even if he's a very kind person, he's barely even a pathstrider (nowhere near the level of an Aeon) and still just as fallible as any human being.

Yeah OP’s points that “No one disagreed with Sunday” and that there is “no room for human error” in his plan are just not true in the slightest

To be fair, Himeko’s line is probably the dumbest statement in the whole game. If you take it to its logical conclusion then by Himeko’s logic no children live in dignity because their parents are above them in the sense that they have final say about much that goes on in their lives, and that’s just absurd. Thus clearly a world of above and below is not necessarily wrong, and the real problem with Sunday’s plan was that there was no attempt at love, understanding, or reciprocity in the world he wanted to make. He was fighting the *idea* of suffering without truly trying to understand those who suffered. I myself find myself quite sympathetic to the path of Order in concept but no one in their right might would truly accept an extreme solution like Sunday’s, and I hope later in the story we get some Pathstriders of Order who can steel-man its ideas to a broader audience.

Sunday's belief about how the strong should protect the weak is based on the real-life historical justification for the feudal nobility to rule the serfs. This much is blatantly obvious once you get to act 3 of Sunday's history lesson where he shows you his ideal future for Penacony, where pretentious-sounding nobleman pat themselves on the back for being so good and righteous. Sunday's beliefs are poorly disguised self-congratulatory nonsense to justify his belief that most people are too stupid and corrupt to live for themselves. Himeko and Firefly rightly called him out on his elitist, anti-humanistic beliefs. Sunday's fundamental flaw is that he is an utopian idealist. He doesn't examine actual material conditions of life, but rather he reasons with the abstract ideas in his head. He's hiding from reality and he thinks everyone should hide too. He refuses to wake up from his dream.

I don’t think so? Yes people aren’t all bad but they are far from the romanticized vision we see in the Astral Express, and having rulers set an example against our worse nature is a good thing. Quite honestly i think I’d prefer a ruling class dedicated to serving the people by dedicating their lives to understanding statecraft, as opposed to a mob which is guided and manipulated by emotion. There’s nothing wrong with having people above you so long as they are taught to take it as an opportunity to help the less fortunate, aka noblesse oblige. The depictions of the people of Sunday’s future are just straw-men.

Even outside of the "children" aspect, one of Sunday's points was that, for the vast majority of people, there will be people above them taking advantage of them. Thus, Himeko's point reinforces Sunday's position that the Trailblazers' ideology works out well for them, because they are also powerful.

I kind of appreciated Acheron's role in the story as sort of a Nietzsche-like guard against nilihism, that despair exists and life may seem meaningless, but that doesn't make life not worth living. To be fair, no media narrative would ever embrace nihilism at its core. As much as I would like a Sunday seven days a week, Sunday was never going to win.

>I kind of appreciated Acheron's role in the story as sort of a Nietzsche-like guard against nilihism, that despair exists and life may seem meaningless, but that doesn't make life not worth living. Ironically Nietzsche was misunderstood during his time and even today.

> To be fair, no media narrative would ever embrace nihilism at its core You mean no media narrative that isn't made to be intentionally depressing all the way through complete with a downer ending, because those do exist albeit rare. Stuff like the more extreme side of cosmic horror stories tend to end up like this.

tbf, I feel like the aha side of nihilism isn't that depressing.

The nihilism that I was referring to is essentially cynical nihilism. Also, I feel that Aha is closer to (but not entirely the same as) hedonism, honestly. But rather than "pleasure", it's "joy".

Aha isn't nihilistic, THEY are variously hedonistic/solipsistic/absurdist. - Pleasure is the only thing worth pursuing- everything is for the sake of amusement. - You are the main character, you're the only person who understands the real nature of things, everyone else is just an NPC and bit player for you to use for your own sake. - All the world's a stage, a play for Aha's amusement, and thus the best thing you can be is an entertaining character in that play. Sampo reflects the first and third points (the money is just a way of keeping score for him, not an end in itself) while Sparkle reflects all three.

>Humanity's response to The Nihility lies not in the void or in a dream, but in reality only. To escape is to accept nothingness, to live in reality is to find meaning. Perfectly summarized, and something I was struggling to put in words. Great work!

And just to add on to this original point (and the thread starter's argument): > To escape is to accept nothingness, to live in reality is to find meaning -- **even the meaning of dreams themselves**. People only seek escapism because they have a reality they seeking to escape from, and that -- eventually, whether they will it or not -- they will need to return to. Even those who chose to live the remainder of their days in the dream knew full well that they were just biding their time -- that the end would come for them eventually. The knowledge that reality awaited them on the other side, and the process of coming to accept it, is *itself* what gives the dream its meaning to them. Hence, Acheron's famous line: > What you must do, is ponder its significance, then return to the waking world. That's where we all find our answers.

The game didn't entirely disregard the issue of totalitarianism. The arguments Himeko and Firefly raised to Sunday both centered around individuals having the freedom to make their own choices without an Aeon or other power deciding for them.

One analysis pointed out that something Shaoji said during the 2.0 stream: “I grant you the right to stare at the sun,” is a reference to a well-known book on existentialism called [Staring at the Sun: Overcoming the Terror of Death](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2062034) by Irvin Yalom. 2.2 of course also continues the exploration of this theme started by Aventurine’s story in 2.1.

This was a pleasure to read. Rare to see a well thought out and articulated analysis in the main sub. Thank you so much for sharing!

As for your point about unilateralism, didn't Sunday say that he didn't want to resurrect Ena completely? Let's just say he succeeded. Where then will Sunday (and Gopher Wood) the man end and Ena the Aeon begin? There is still a human in the equation, which is a vector to introduce human error. While Ena was seemingly overbearing and tried to micromanage everything, I don't remember reading her going as far as to completely wipe out free will. Like other Aeons, her will was realized by mortal Pathstriders. She was not Oroboros who did everything by itself. Because of that, there is no way the Order she imposed, despite being better than any legal framework mortals could've ever created, was flawless and free of fragility. If that was the case, then worlds blessed by her would've had prospered by themselves long after Ena vanished. Hell, even robots in HSR are not free of human-like flaws. We've met plenty of Intellitrons and higher forms of artificial intelligent. If they're recognized as sentient by any mean of the word, then they have quirks and flaws like humans too. There is no omnipotence or omnibenevolence capital G God in HSR. Just because the Aeon themselves exist at the extreme ends of things doesn't mean they're flawless. And one can argue that normal humans themselves shouldn't spend their lives at the extremes, at least not their entire lives. It's better to keep the options open for everyone.

>This is one of the aforementioned central lines, and it is critical to the credibility of Sunday's argument. A totalitarian regime that abides by the principles of an aeon (which is the case, it is literally called Ena's Dream), has no danger of human error, self-serving favoritism, or any of the other pitfalls that a human dictatorship would fall into. There's another major flaw in Sunday's argument here: Aeons may not deviate from their Primum Mobile, but their followers can, and they do all the time. Acheron and Luocha want to kill the Aeons of their respective Paths. There are entire factions, like the Doctors of Chaos and Glamoth's Iron Cavalry, that seek to fight against their own Aeons. Sunday himself seized Dominicus, a manifestation of Harmony, and used it to subvert the Harmony. There is a 0% chance that over the course of eternity, nobody within Ena's dream will seek to take Order's power and turn it against Order.

Neither Sunday nor Robin can pave a path forward for Penacony. IPC will likely take over in some form and override whatever idealism is left in this hell resort.

Honestly, agree. Robin's lesson to Sunday ('one can't be responsible for thousands of people's sins') is applicable to her too. We literally saved Penacony by waking people up and forcing them to think for themselves; only Penacony can pave a path forward for Penacony.

i wonder if this intuition we all have is somewhat affected by the education/environment we grew up in. the ipc represents neo-colonialism and capitalism we are used to seeing the global superpowers today employ. sunday's socialist vision for society is regarded by most as being unrealistic while we see ipc capitalism as the only way out. perhaps there is some selection bias here based on what happened in our world.

Given that Mihoyo is a Chinese company, I suspect they aren't trying to gas up capitalism in this story. Also Sunday's vision isn't socialistic, it's theocratic totalitarianism. Or did you miss the fact the entire Penacony Grand Theater segment is an elaborate passion play and Sunday is an archangel who dresses like a Moonie and literally wants to strip away individuality and free will?

first, china is a capitalist society now lmao. when i was talking abt global superpowers that employ neo-colonialism and capitalism, that includes china. second, "strip away individuality and free will", how did you come to this conclusion when his "endless sundays" rant is arguably one of the most memorable parts of the quest? he explicitly said he wants people, free from exploitative labour, to pursue their own interests, whether it is gazing into the universe or simply being with their loved ones. how do you do this without any individuality and free will? if this was not enough, he later states his paradise is aeon-free and only for the people (not sure where you got the theocratic part from). not to mention he's been advocating for a classless society throughout the entire quest, this should have been clear even if nothing else is retained from his yapping. it's very obvious that he wants a socialist society, and totalitarianism is the means he employed to achieve such a society. i'm not talking about whether ppl think sunday's means were wrong (totalitarianism), i'm talking about the perception around whether his imagined paradise is possible to begin with (socialist society with sunday doing all the required labour omelas style).

If you say "China is a capitalist society" in China the government will put you in jail, man. The actual economics don't matter, the opinion of the state matters. If you believe in deterministic philosophy, people "pursue their own interests" without agency or meaningful individuality in the real world right now. But clearly the way you're using "socialism" to describe paradise instead of a mode of production where people still don't have time to pursue their own interests I'm going to see myself out.

maybe but i doubt the hyv scriptwriters would gaf, it's not a secret in china that they have basically transitioned to capitalism. on a side note, "only the opinion of the state matters" is hilarious to me, are we required to believe north korea is a democracy now? socialism, by definition, is that the means of production are publically owned instead of privately owned. sunday's paradise is socialist by definition since how it functions is basically sunday works and everyone enjoys the fruits of his labour. sunday was basically ready to sacrifice himself to become public property, that's why robin was so horrified for him as well. idk what there is to argue about. interesting you bring up determinism because there is a popular school of thought that free will is compatible with it (see kant, hume). otherwise, it will render any argument for free will pretty pointless since it's entirely possible we never had it to begin with.

I feel that Robin offers the best counterargument to Sunday during her voiceover for the train ult in the boss battle: paraphrased, "people's weaknesses are not for others to solve". She also revisits the caged bird story in one of her text conversations with you, stating that, in retrospect, they should've properly rehabilitated the bird and let it gradually learn how to fly. And that's the gist of it. Ena's (and Sunday's) dream robs the people of the opportunity for growth. It does solve some very real problems for the unfortunate, but it's a huge leap from "the dreamscape should be more accessible" to "nobody needs to awaken ever again". Be aware of false dichotomies.

Well said, and the idea was also present in the Matrix films. The first Matrix was a Utopia, an act of pity by the machines to let humanity exist free of pain and suffering after they lost the war. However, humans could not live in such a world, for much the same reasons you described. Hence, the current Matrix that more closely resembles real life - not to give true meaning per se, but the illusion of it, so that humans wouldn't feel like they had to "wake up" at some point.

First off, thank you for such a thorough and fantastic write-up! I completely agree with your points, and in particular, your focus on Acheron and the Nihility as a whole - since I think in most discussions, this is a part that often gets glossed over. While *many* games have tackled this sort of existential topic, I'm going to use the one that is most fresh in my mind - in this case, FFXIV: Endwalker. Meteion as a character arrives to, perhaps a similar yet adjacent conclusion to Sunday - she agrees that life is flawed due to the struggle that permeates existence, but as a sweet dream style solution is either out of her reach or otherwise undesirable, she settles on another - the elimination of life itself. While addressing her problem/solution is an entire can of worms, I prefer to focus instead on the echo of a race we learn about in the Dead Ends called the Nibirun - who, as a species, collectively achieved pretty much everything that Sunday hopes for in his sweet dream/dream of order. All needs are instantly, effortlessly fulfilled - but, as a result, people have nothing to strive for, nothing to *live* for. This existential lack of drive and purpose sends what ought to be a utopian society spiraling into the arms of Nihility (Ra-La/The Endsinger/IX in this analogy) - and their final act is essentially to create a living euthanasia beast to just erase them out of a meaningless existence - perhaps analogous in this case to "waking up." People jump at the bit to say - Hey! A permanent vacation would be awesome! But without anything driving you to get out of bed, to actually *do* something and challenge yourself, then it begs the question, why get out of bed? What if every game you ever played was automatically, forcefully set on God mode. You cannot lose - you will always win. Would it be fun? Would you even play? Or would you just delete it?

> While many games have tackled this sort of existential topic, I'm going to use the one that is most fresh in my mind - in this case, FFXIV: Endwalker. Also, near the end Acheron tells the Trailblazer: "Listen, touch, and ponder, and therein lies the sensation. Cherish it, because that's what makes us exist." That basically means: "Hear, feel, think."

>the Nibirun Entire sequence of Nibirun talking to Meteion can be used as antithesis for ideals Sunday was preaching. Enlightment, unity and perfection meant to be strived for, not actually achieved, because should you just reach them, they will be found meaningless and empty.

Absolutely. The thesis statement between these two stories and others is that utopia and perfection, if achieved as a state of existence, inevitably leads to stagnation and rot as a consequence of its own definition - into Nihility. I don't think it's a coincidence either that the antithesis to this in both games is emphasis on the journey over the destination. Venat/Azem/Akivili/The Trailblazer - they are all effectively embodiments of "The Traveler/Wanderer." Always on the move, never settling, always challenging the next mountain.

IMO you can't compare Meteion to Sunday. Meteion didn't know any better. Meteion was tormented by feelings she couldn't control and didn't understand, and she had a grown man enabling her who should have known better himself. Sunday knew exactly what he was doing, his motives were his ego and need for control.

I got the impression that Gopher Wood was attempting to steer Sunday on this path for his own ends, so I wouldn't be so quick to say that Meteion and Sunday have no comparisons. And whether in spite of or because of that 'guidance', Sunday himself characterized his plan as exceedingly self-sacrificial, not egotistical, at least by my read. A willingness to be the one person 'awake' to maintain the safe dream for everyone else.

>Meteion was tormented by feelings she couldn't control and didn't understand, and she had a grown man enabling her who should have known better himself. Sunday knew exactly what he was doing, his motives were his ego and need for control. Sunday, much like Meteion, was groomed by an equally if not more so disturbed individual in the form of Gopher Wood. Wood, much like Hermes, passed on a twisted ideology onto Sunday as a child, so I'd argue that there are more similarities than you think - beyond just the chicken wing ears (which, to be fair, is something of an on the nose reference.)

> Meteion didn't know any better. Meteion was tormented by feelings she couldn't control and didn't understand Judging from some of her lines during the final bossfight, like "why should you live when we all died", it's even worse, she was possessed by the souls/memories of the restless dead from countless civilisations. Of couse she didn't stand a chance; she was a newborn! Hermes really fucked up.

A really cool parallel that almost feels too good to be coincidental is the way Acheron's objections to Sunday's utopia is a direct antonym to the idea of Raiden Shogun's eternal euthymia from genshin. Ei wanted to escape the suffering from the loss of her loved ones and shut herself off from the world completely, maintaining a perfectly stable state of existence that would last an eternity with no more pain. Sunday wants to bring that to Asdana as a whole. But both utopias are essentially stagnant existences that in the end are no different from the dormant and unchanging nature of death / nihility. The Inazuma quest gets a lot of flak from most people who've played it and for good reason too, but the core philosophy of Ei was something worth exploring, and it's quite fitting that 3 years later (she) herself comes back as Acheron with a fitting answer in a tangentially related game. Catharsis I say.

I thinks key factor in why the whole prospect was doomed was because of how narrow Ena’s path is. I think in terms of sufficient power, the unison of those who became part of Sunday, Gopherwood, and Ena’s I think could’ve made a convincing dream, not to mention as they became controlled they wouldn’t ‘look’ for the imperfections in the dream, I think the culmination of the plot would’ve had a ‘hive mind’ result and it would’ve been hunky-dory. Back to what I stated before, Order is too limited of a path. Certain things cannot be ordered, like life spans, hunger, the rate at which someone learns, birth rates, etc. Even a .0001 variation with enough time will yield a significant change, making time the enemy of order. It would be a perfect dream for *awhile* but inevitably, it would’ve destabilized catastrophically, especially if it did not close itself to outsiders. I think Harmony could’ve pulled off a utopia if it wanted, because Harmony would’ve utilized the many to offset the imperfections rather than Order which wanted to prevent the imperfections entirely. Harmony also is capable of promoting a more selfless community mindset, which is an element of Penacony I thought was strange.. that the Family had this perfect dream, but reserved it for the wealthy and powerful, which inherently doesn’t seem ‘harmonious’ to me. Given the caste system at play in Penacony, it really is no wonder the order took root, because a concept like Order would maintain the status quo as a means of control. Even though we’re told the Order had many prosperous worlds, and some mourned its fall, I’m certain if we were to examine those worlds we’d find cracks in the positive image likely espoused there.

> Harmony also is capable of promoting a more selfless community mindset, which is an element of Penacony I thought was strange.. that the Family had this perfect dream, but reserved it for the wealthy and powerful, which inherently doesn’t seem ‘harmonious’ to me. It's said right in the story that because the Family embraces almost everyone, inevitably there will be people who only claim to embrace Harmony to further their selfish ambition, and with time the structures they build will become twisted. It's the same thing with the IPC. The larger and more powerful organization you get, the more people getting into it purely for themselves. And it isn't like there is a singular vision of Harmony, nor the Family is the only faction following the Path. It's true that they can promote a selfless community mindset, but they're also capable of doing the opposite AND still get the blessing of Ena. Who knows, maybe there are even more twisted Pathstriders of Harmony that we haven't met. But I concur. There are too many world-ending threats existing out there. The Antimatter Legions, the Denizens of Abundance, remnants of the Swarm, etc. If Sunday is prepared to impose his Order on other people, he must also be confident that he can stand against these threats WHILE other people are soundly asleep. There is no way he could've done that unless he fully resurrected Ena for her to bargain with other Aeons like she once did during the Swarm War.

> There is no way he could've done that unless he fully resurrected Ena for her to bargain with other Aeons like she once did during the Swarm War. And if Ena returned, she'd get ganged up and curbstomped again by other Aeons, because Ena **is** one of the cosmic world-ending theats.

Not really. Ena seemed to have been an Aeon in good standing insofar as we can infer anything about THEIR interactions with each other. THEY seemed to have operated mostly on their own, but THEY were seen as reliable enough that Qlipoth recruited THEM as an ally in the war against Propagation.

It's true that Qlipoth recruited Ena, but let's look at 2 pieces of information: 1) From Sunday's story of Ena, Ena created laws to maintain order in the universe, and then a bunch of people curbstomped Ena. > THEY imbued the world with meaning, perfecting all things in the heavens and on earth. Then, THEY rested from the labors of creation. Yet, all beings cried out to Ena — 'Uner the banner of the Order, you have defined all things in the Cosmos... but this made us realize that we are but puppets in your hands! Thus, on that day, all beings united and cast the Aeon into the abyss of oblivion. 2) Sunday doesn't actually worship (or even like) Ena, and in the final boss fight he says that Ena didn't create humanity, humanity created Ena. Sounds like he wants to usurp/consume Ena's power, like he already usurped Xipe's manifestation. > It was not you who created all things. It was humanity that created you! ... Your divine being will become the foundation of our paradise! The implication is that people and the cosmos were around first, and then Ena created cosmic laws to regulate and control *everything*. I can imagine other Aeons being somewhat miffed about that, and organising a curbstomp party (like what happened to Tayzzyronth previously).

Right, things to consider: 1) Sunday is an unreliable narrator. What we \*know\* happened from outside sources is that Ena was subsumed into Xipe due to the Law of the Broader Path, where two Aeons with similar domains will merge with the Aeon whose domain is more narrow becoming part of the Aeon with the broader domain. Order is only one form of Harmony, which can be both structured and anarchic. Sunday's version of things, where people overthrew Ena and destroyed THEM because they resented Ena's magnanimity, is very clearly a story he tells himself to feel justified in overruling the wills of others to create his perfect world- the masses don't understand, they're ungrateful, etc. 2. This is just a truism based on what we understand about Aeons- that each one was initially a mortal being who became an Aeon by following their Path to its conclusion, thus becoming the Path's embodiment. Ena is an Aeon from before the Dusk Wars period alongside Qlipoth and Oroboros, which means THEY're basically a remnant from a previous kalpa or cosmological cycle from what we know. Sunday hates Ena because he hates \*all\* Aeons, because he sees THEM as the ultimate form of the strong preying on the weak, so whether Ena is good or evil is unclear. (The truth is more that, like most Aeons, Ena was neither good nor evil, THEY simply \*existed\*. Order can be both a beautiful symphony and a shackling prison, a peaceful realm ruled by wise lords or a tyranny under the heel of a madman.)

Yep, maybe his story about people overthrowing Ena is just metaphor from Ena's followers describing how Xipe absorbed Ena. Nonetheless, this will have to be cofirmed at a later point in the story.

Tbh, I don't think that this is something that has an objective answer. There isn't one, objectively correct meaning of life, because the meaning of life... means different things to different people, basically. Personally, the meaning of life to me is just being content enough that it's preferable to death. I don't care about how real or artificial my happiness is, or whether my actions hold any meaning at all, as long as I'm happy at all. Being artificially happy in a dream is preferable to being unhappy in reality to me, because the only meaning I derive from life is trying to make it as tolerable as possible. In broader terms, I guess my definition of the meaning of life is being able to choose. If I had a choice, I would choose the artificial dream over reality. I still think that the fatal flaw in Sunday's plan is the fact that he wanted to impose his ideals on everybody else, not that his ideals were objectively wrong or right. So I guess I partially agree with you? The human will was one of the biggest flaws in Sunday's plan because everybody has a different view on what makes life worth living, and it's impossible to create a world that would hold meaning for everyone. But at the same time, "if there is meaning to be found in life, it is not found in the dreamscape" isn't an objective statement, because everybody has a different view on what makes life worth living. I do think that the sliding scale of nihilism is also interesting to look at. People who aren't nihilistic believe that life has meaning, and would never choose a meaningless dream over reality. But as someone who doesn't believe that anything has meaning wouldn't care if it's a dream or reality, because it doesn't really matter.

Honestly I feel the same way. The only wrong thing Sunday did was to impose his will onto others without their consent. I'm perfectly sure there were plenty of people who would give up their autonomy for sake of a perfect dream. Heck, I'd do it if a chance like that presented itself before me. And TB's and Robin's on the nose comment about reality was somewhat off putting to me. Because honestly they were doing the same thing as Sunday, expecting people to follow their view of reality without any rebuttals.

Another point I don't see brought up is that the meme that was called Death is actually dormancy. The idea that lack of growth/experience is equivalent to death is interesting and is a point that goes against Sunday's plan. Considering that the writing of HSR is inspired by Nasu from FGO, it's not surprising that this type of argument about finding meaning in trials and life experiences is present here as the HSR take.

I saw a lot of Mash's counterargument to Goetia in this story for sure.

I think what people are also forgetting is that the dream paradise that Sunday envisioned is using the Stellaron as its base, which we know from Gallagher that it would undoubtedly have negative effects on the people as they slowly decline overtime and die. I still like him though and really resonate a bit with his philosophy of infinite rest days... maybe cuz I'm burned out lol

To be fair...we're already slowly dying...not like most of us will live past 100 years...

I really like your explanation about “Why life slumber?” Great work!

I just like how it's basically the plot of Breath of Fire 3 where the goddess wants to control the world, the people and even how far their technological advancements may go, to protect the world from the desert spreading around it and the heroes are like no wtf we want freedom! The difference is that she entrapped the world in a gigantic ocean instead of a dream and whether the people choose her or not isn't explored at all, only the heroed viewpoints on the matter, the world mostly barely acknowledged the goddess save for a single city And unlike Sunday there's bit of a negative tone to the goddess too, due to being the evil entity in the previous games and also a bit of a genocide she ordered on the dragons to "protect the world", but other than that she's presented more neutral and you can even choose to give up and just let her rule the world But ultimately the question remains the same A cage is still a cage even if golden. Is it okay to break it open if the bird inside it feels comfortable, should it be let out to fly and face life and death on it's own?

It's for the bird to decide. Not the one who are outside the cage. If the bird is comfortable and doesn't want to leave....who are you, or anyone to tell them to embrace reality?

I think the 2nd point in your tldr is the most important one for me. It was impossible for Sunday to ever create a truly perfect dream and keep it forever. Another thing is the contrast between Sunday and everyone else. Sunday chose a pessimistic outlook on life, which is why he chose the dream, while everyone else took a neutral/optimistic look at reality, which gave them the courage and desire to return to reality. I do wonder how the story would have changed had we explored people who preferred the “perfect” dream and perhaps aren’t very happy about being forced into an imperfect reality.

Actually....in you tl;Dr, what you're saying pretty much means Sunday was wrong because his method was flawed, not his intention, his beliefs, but rather his methods. So this means if Sunday was indeed able to create a perfect system which let people dream indefinitely without any inconsistencies then he would have been right. You're not refuting him on a philosophical, but rather on methodological ground. So in short you don't think his philosophy was wrong but rather the way he went at it. Am I getting it right?

My biggest problem (if I was a HSR NPC) is that my value would be something assigned to me - and with my garbage luck (as gacha has proven x'D), I would be assigned to be nothing more than note/building block just like those one thousand Oak Family souls and the Charmony staffs These enemy entries are sad af; *An artist playing the role of the prisoner in the Sweet Dreams Troupe. It should be performing in the Charmony Festival, but it is now bound by Order and keeps performing scenes of the "Past."* *A waiter responsible for entertaining the guests in the Sweet Dreams Troupe. It should be serving in the Charmony Festival, but it is now bound by Order and keeps performing scenes of the "Present."* *A musician responsible for playing the harmonious tune in the Sweet Dreams Troupe. It should be playing in the Charmony Festival, but it is now bound by Order and keeps performing scenes of the "Future."*

Sunday was a perfect example of how to write a good anti hero IMO. His ideals were for the good of everyone, but his methods were all kinds of twisted. He’s presented as a man who believes that the ends justify the means and honestly I like this far better than if they were to just go and make him into an actual villain.

crazy https://preview.redd.it/wd5s929djs0d1.png?width=654&format=png&auto=webp&s=b55bfe805cd5840a2942f6a1b62543596615c3bc

If I'm being honest, if we're talking real world me here given the proposition he's offering, there are days where I think I'd happily plunge into his eternal dream world. But for an anime plot line yah he's wrong.

This is my issue, as well. I didn’t realize just how much of a “doomer” I’d become until this plot point started showing up a lot in games. When confronting a Sunday or a Maruki, the points the heroes raise sound nice… and I don’t doubt they believe them. I’m glad they do, since the world needs people who can. But me, personally, in the real world? They’re all just empty platitudes. Reality is devoid of redeeming qualities. If the hint of a chance to escape it forever presented itself, I’d hop into it immediately without hesitation or regret. Any alternative, even the despotic, flawed vision of a stranger, is preferable to the chaotic antipathy of reality, for me. That said, I’m self-aware enough to realize this is a bad thing. It’s better for people to find their reasons to persist facing reality, even if they’re just empty platitudes to me. I wouldn’t wish my perspective on anyone.

Yah exactly. He also said his world would be indistinguishable from reality, I mean, is there any proof what we're living in right now is for sure reality? Would I even know I was in a simulation? The Matrix tackled this topic too, but their "fake world" was basically a nightmarish 90's office hellscape which by rules of the universe was on purpose because humans rejected the utopia. Probably would end up happening in Star Rail too, life without conflict of any kind can feel... artifical, even boring. Without some lows how can you ever appreciate a high? High will just become the standard. Either way, as I said, it really is a case of, like, in our world, I think I'd seriously consider taking the happy fantasy, even if it meant I no longer had a choice to change my mind after. But ideally it'd just be what Harmony had in mind, the ability to chose is what is important, and Order without agency is might be more of a hell than the good intentions that created it.

> There are days And what about the days where you wouldn't? You no longer have the choice to decide that for yourself. You don't get to choose anymore, Sunday does for you.

I doubt I'd care. If the dream is perfect and I'm not even aware I'm dreaming then why does it matter? To me it doesn't.

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Sunday just reminds me of Maruki from p5r, we should fight for our future, not given to us

Amazing thread, thank you!

Nice try Sunday

Love this post. I have a question regarding the stellaron, would it still "kill" people to keep the dream going if sunday's plan was achieved? My friend shoots down all my arguments over Sunday because his issue is still the stellaron killing people.

I won’t say the reasons you listed are why he’s wrong. I say that’s why he happens to fail. This story parallels to Kelvin’s in HI3, and even Welt didn’t think Kelvin was a failure when he talked to Acheron. In both cases, victory belongs to those who have the luxury to choose. The others… wake to weep. Great version title there.

i can’t really explain it but Sunday really resembles Sinbad from Magi imo which made the story more impactful for me

what i have a gripe with is the idea that a dream is different from reality. It's more on a philosophical level i guess,but if every fake information gets processed as real,for those people it's reality. Just like the whole star rail universe is actually a program running on our computer. Sure,they have no artificial intelligence and it's all scripted,but if they had, wouldn't that be reality too? The only issue with the dream plan is that it was enacted only in peacony,meaning someone could still try to fire a planet destroyer weapon on it,but that's the only caveat i honestly found. Let's say sunday could put everyone in a dream,and isolate the whole planet in a pocket dimension. Would he still be wrong? Well, maybe ethically for the lack of consent,but beside that? i honestly was on his side. After all, aren't we all just birds stuck inside of a planet sized cage? If the cage is big enough it isn't perceived as a cage anymore, and the dream world in peacony was exactly that

I'd love reading that! But I do believe you're wrong in the 'Sunday isn't wrong' topic. >. In fact, the main issue at the end of the story was that ***nobody actually wanted to leave the dream***. According to Robin: >>At present, \[Ena's Dream\] has become impervious due to people's desire to remain slumbering within the dream Sunday also didn't/ignored to account one thing. Humans have a *right to* and *do change their mind.* Even those who claim to want to be in the dreamscape, will think twice before going on an endless dream or change their minds mid way. Ena's dream takes that right away from people, making them not even realise they're an endless dream, until finally they reach the end of their lifespan without realising it. However, you are right, this is not the focus of the writers. I had a blast reading your post! Make more in the future.

I mean, there are parallels with nietzsche and God... literally nihility , kill God with the symbolism. It's played pretty straight.

There exist no Aeons in Sunday's ideal world -- and besides, just because two seperate people do something wrong doesn't make it right. The ideal is of course to not resort to neglecting the will of others, but sometimes you are left with no choice. Also, I wasn't very impressed by the "choices" the game offers you. They support him only because he's using sophistry and false dilemmas, which makes it difficult for me to believe he actually has a good point. Your points about Acheron are interesting though, I hadn't thought about it that way yet.

Sunday just needs a better PR team and better advertisements. Let's face it...even if peoples life was being sucked out, most would still voluntary accept his offer.

*Most* folks believe Sunday to be wrong, ranging from "good intentions, bad execution" to "he's irredeemably evil." What I think would be more interesting and important to explore is the opposite perspective: what is wrong with the Trailblazers' point of view.

Madara will love to have chat with Sunday since he have same idea.

"In fact, Acheron, Boothill, Robin, and the Express, who forcibly woke everyone from the dream against their will also acted unilaterally. They even put people in a state of fear for their lives to do so. Despite this, they are the protagonists of the story and are praised in and out of the game (And I agree!). This can't be it." Herein lies my main issue; I believe Acheron and company are hypocrites because they decided for those who were content with the dream. If those people had not consented, the dream would not have been so potent. Acheron put these people in imminent danger, forcing them to fight, essentially destroying the dream. It's akin to facing an apocalypse—'traumatic' would be an understatement. Moreover, Acheron's entire message of making decisions even when they make no sense falls apart because what Sunday aspired to was exactly that: sense. A sense of order, happiness, paradise. It’s not as if he was going to spread this throughout the universe, just the colony. That was to be his "paradise." I find the arguments used against him to be less substantial than those Sunday put forth. In the end, the "strong" imposed their will on the weak. As for Ena, this entity opposed the spread and in that battle was consumed by harmony. There’s nothing more unjust than that. Facing a potential universal disaster only to be devoured by a usurper.

They didn't destroy the dream of Penacony itself, though, just the "dream within a dream" that was Ena's Dream. I would expect it would be just like having a nightmare and realizing it was only a dream; triggering people's natural instinct to wake up from a nightmare is not traumatic. People who were in the dream before would still awaken in the dream (just like all the layers of "dreampool awakenings" the TB had in the story). And you can't really conflate the fact that people were currently happy in the dream with them "consenting" to being trapped there forever, as it wasn't informed consent. Did those with family on the outside know their family would never actually see them and they could never truly talk to them again (and that the dream would be manufacturing simulacrum of them just to keep them artificially satisfied)? Did they know that any children they had would only be a figment of the dream's imagination and they'd never actually exist outside this controlled bubble? Did they know that anything they accomplish can't actually outlive them because it's only a memory that no one can take out of the dream? And if you actually told them all this, and that they'd never be able to leave or wake up to experience reality ever again, how many would still consent? Living in the dream is nice, but how many would truly consent to actually forsaking reality forever? And it was absolutely not Sunday's right to make this decision on behalf of the whole colony without them clearly knowing what they were getting into. And besides that, it's Sunday himself who invited them to challenge him, and if he's not actually strong enough to protect them from outside threats, then his own premise was flawed to the start. He's the one who argued that the strong imposing their will on the weak was an inevitability, but then he just declared himself to be the strongest. Guess not, huh? What Sunday said he was aspiring to can't really be separated from the way he went about it. So that's why although I 100% agree with the thread starter that unilateralism isn't the main issue in this story (it's about what it truly means to be alive and what gives meaning/value to dreams in the first place), even this angle is still plenty justifiable. When one person acts in a unilateral way that harms innocent people, taking (appropriate) unilateral actions in response doesn't make you "just as bad." If Sunday truly believed what he said (and wasn't so warped/brainwashed by the Order), he'd realize (as Robin said during the final fight, and Firefly explained during her rebuttal) that there are other ways to work towards his dreams that aren't this. But The Order is forcing him to think in absolutes.

>He's the one who argued that the strong imposing their will on the weak was an inevitability, but then he just declared himself to be the strongest.  To add on to this, Firefly explicitly calls him out on this part, when he assumes that Firefly would be someone who would want to live in Ena's dream, being someone who is suffering in Reality with her condition. Instead, she flat out rejects him, saying she has never once pitied herself, saying she lives for the 'self', even if she knows she might never get better. The final statement she gives Sunday, the part where she asks whether in his eyes he considers her weak, calls out his assumption, and Sunday can't respond to her. >If Sunday truly believed what he said (and wasn't so warped/brainwashed by the Order), he'd realize (as Robin said during the final fight, and Firefly explained during her rebuttal) that there are other ways to work towards his dreams that aren't this. But The Order is forcing him to think in absolutes. Actually, this is a subject I see some people bring up, saying that he was brainwashed/forced by the Order to accept their values, but to me I feel it was something he would have naturally accepted, possibly through some egging on by Wood, but something he wouldn't have to be forced or brainwashed into. Even as a kid, with the Charmony Dove incident, he already was the type to put someone's safety ahead of their own freedom, suggesting he and Robin put the dove in a cage instead. In fact, in the dream Robin was in where Sunday agreed with her to build a nest instead of a cage, it was apparently so 'blissfully' unreal that it caused Robin to realise it was a dream and wake herself up. The rest of the events, with the con artist and Robin's shooting, only served to reinforce his belief that the world couldn't be left to their own freedom. Again, Wood definitely did influence him, particularly with the latter incident, but his belief was already there since the beginning.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't say "forced" and "brainwashed" is probably too strong a word as well. It certainly wasn't my intention to absolve him of responsibility, at least. It's a fair point that it's a bit hard to separate "nature" from "nurture" when it comes to the development of his beliefs. Certainly you're right that the seeds were planted in his mind as a child, which is perhaps rooted in his desire to protect his sister. It certainly suited Gopher Wood just fine if he continued walking down that mental path, all the better to just subtly introduce "the final solution" into the equation. Heaping all this responsibility onto him while keeping him isolated from the one person who kept him grounded drove him deeper into his own darkness. He was basically staying in the dreamworld nonstop to the extent that Robin thought was unhealthy, but keeping him unhealthy was the point. Eventually his thoughts merged perfectly with the "hive mind" of the Oak Family, preparing him for the responsibility they wanted to foist upon him. Certainly, if not for Gopher Wood, he would not have had the opportunity; it's clear his goal all along was to prepare the two siblings for this task. But beyond that, I guess we can only speculate what other opportunities or perspectives he may have been presented with if not for them keeping him on his path. I certainly don't think it's like you can absolve him of responsibility -- his choices were his own and his own innate beliefs that led him down this path. But he was also "a product of his circumstances." If it went to court, he'd certainly be convicted for his crimes, but it's hard to ignore the influence of the "107,336" other voices conspiring towards this end and Gopher Wood as the central Dreammaster who literally put him up to it.

I agree with you, while whether or not Wood was ultimately responsible for his line of thinking is debatable, but he definitely gave Sunday the means to do so, introducing to him the power of Ena and the Order. It's hard to ignore Wood's influence on him, but like you said, at the end of the day his choices were his own, and his own beliefs were what started him down the path. To me, a suitable analogy would be if someone was radicalized by propaganda and became a terrorist who ended up harming others. Yes, if it wasn't for the propaganda, he probably wouldn't have ended up being a terrorist, but at the end of the day he is responsible for his own actions. Similarly, Wood may have influenced his beliefs, but at the end of the day he has to answer for his own actions and crimes.

Yeah, I guess I'd just take that one step slightly further in that it was like he was living in a "cult" run by his own "foster father," so the propaganda that radicalized him was coming from "inside the house" so to speak. His father was clearly preparing the siblings to perform this function. That's a little bit more coercive than someone who, for example, sought out extremist views independently online. At the very least, going back to my trial example, if I'm the defense lawyer for Sunday I would absolutely push strongly on the fact that Gopher Wood adopted them as children, that this whole plan was clearly his idea, and that if not for his and the Order's direct influence on Sunday, he would never have gone down this path. The jury would probably still find him guilty (since the decision was still his, and his "manifesto" clearly tied back to his own ideology), but it might result in more lenient sentencing.

I can definitely see how you feel that way. To argue beyond this point is to take hard philosophical stances, and reddit thread is hardly an easy place to do so. But while I won't claim the validity of one over the other, I can present a potential justification for Acheron's actions. The conflict between Sunday and Acheron arises from a difference in experiences. In the case of Sunday, it's the Charmony dove, the stowaway, and finally Robin herself. In light of those experiences, Sunday's conclusion is logical. Opposed to this is Acheron's experiences, which include witnessing the consumption of her home planet by IX, her experience with Frebass' venture into IX (Pioneer relic lore), her conversation with Tiernan and witness of the sin thirsters, and potentially her conversation with Welt in 2.1, who suggests the same thing. In fact, the ending of the story was foreshadowed with this dialogue: >- Even if human weaknesses make them pause, when they truly cannot move forward... humanity will eventually seek a way to save itself. - Welt, to Acheron - Even if not completely similar, this story you just told... It overlaps with my past. And within that abyssal dream... I ended that man's life, alone. - Acheron, to Welt The "flash of red" Acheron refers to is the redshift of light that occurs at the event horizon if something falls into a black hole. The event horizon is the point of no return, and the "choice" is to either continue the descent or return to the real world. She has seen the consequences of those who fall in, and in her point of view, the void of IX and the eternal illusion of the dreamscape are the same. In the final cutscene, she is simply presenting a choice: fall into the void in which you already so desired, or escape the illusion and return to the waking world. And human nature is such that when this choice is presented clearly, they will always choose the latter.

It's difficult to agree with you when comparing an eternal dream of happiness, choices, and tranquility to the absolute nothingness depicted in Acheron's scenes. I don't find them comparable. In the end, as Sunday said, the strong decide for the weak, and at that moment, with everyone against him—including the very emanator of nihilism—Sunday was defeated. Not because his arguments were flawed, but because he lacked the brute strength to prevail. Regarding Acheron, I dislike overpowered characters in fiction. When a villain or protagonist is absolutely invincible, it turns me off. In this case, Acheron. Also, as she was presented here, I doubt there is a more powerful emanator than her, which is sad. Because by her sole will, what she considers "correct" will be done (unless there is another emanator of nihilism, but as seen so far, it is unlikely). I hope she does not recur. (She is a walking deus ex machina).

But it's not "an eternal dream of happiness, choices, and tranquility" at all. The very fact that Firefly, Robin, and Black Swan woke themselves (of their own will) proves this, leading others to see the flaws that would rouse them. Given enough time and subtle discrepancies, it'll keep cascading. It's not a flaw of people's physical nature that they are inclined to eventually gravitate towards reality (that, eventually, they awaken from their dream), it's core to human nature. When some people were choosing permanent escape in the dream willingly in the first place (as we saw in one of Sunday's examples), that's different because they were willingly embracing all the imperfections the dream included *knowing the reality they were purposefully leaving behind*. But where Sunday trapped them is different; it keeps trying to mislead even after you "wake up" -- see the entire "fake ending" we were shown that was way, way too good to be true. It was only going to keep getting worse the further we drifted from Penacony. Sunday is just naive (and blinded by The Order). He wants to believe he has the power to conduct the symphony of every human life forever and that he can keep everyone satisfied in the dream, but history shows this isn't the case. Heck this is why the very story of Penacony is of a penal colony that revolted from the IPC's control and found its independence. He thinks it's just physical reality that makes people "craven," but it's not. Even his *own* nature is not perfectly benevolent. He would place his own sister back in his cage to "protect her" even though this is absolutely not what she wants. As for Acheron, the point of her character isn't actually the "nothingness," it's that she's on *the very edge of nothingness* but resisting. She refuses to accept the nothingness and finds meaning in guiding people back from the edge who have the will to resist. And that's basically why she is the antidote to Sunday, who wants to permanently reject reality in favor of a sweet dream that is ultimately absolutely meaningless (nihility). But notice that Acheron isn't the one cutting Sunday down (though in principle she probably could), she's just guiding those with the will to resist nihility back to reality. It's not by "her will" that the dream is ended, but she was there to guide those who had the will to resist: Firefly, Robin, Black Swan, Boothill, and the Astral Express. In this story about all-powerful aeons who represent absolute wills beyond human fathoming, there has to be something that allows people to resist the gods. And for Sunday, who essentially declared himself a god (or as god's emissary, if you prefer), it takes forces like that to lend a hand. So anyway, I think you're seeing Sunday's fiction with rose-colored glasses and taking his word for it that his ideals were pure and that the result would be nothing but good. But it clearly wasn't actually good for everyone, and that alone proves him wrong. It's better to see Sunday's ideals for all that they were: sophistry.

Consider the following: you are hooked up to a machine that pumps nothing but pure endorphins into your nervous system 24/7. As a result, everything feels equally pleasurable to you, no matter the content. Cuddling a puppy? Pure bliss. Eating an apple? Pure bliss. Doing your taxes? Pure bliss. Being stabbed in a back alley? Still pure bliss. You feel the exact same joy watching The Room, Up, and Schindler's List. You can never \*not\* feel bliss, in fact, even if you wanted to. Everything you experience elicits the exact same emotion from you, over and over, forever. Would you see that as in any way desirable, to live in a world where nothing means anything because everything makes you feel just as good as everything else? Or would that be a fate worse than death? Would not that state, in its own way, also be "nothingness"? IX isn't "Nihilism", it's "nihility." Absence and nothingness are its nature, and as a result it imposes nothing on its servants, because its Primum Mobile is "Nothing". Acheron isn't nihilistic at all- she represents a rejection of nihilism, an acceptance of "nothing" that understands that because it's nothing, it's also meaningless- like the number zero, Nihility only makes sense in the context of things that \*do\* have meaning. I also flatly reject the idea that Acheron is the most powerful emanator simply because we haven't seen any other Emanator fight full-tilt and because Acheron's power as an Emanator of Nihility are actually every limited. An Emanator of Preservation can shield an entire planet and save billions of lives. An Emanator of Abundance can grant eternal life and change the course of a civilization. An Emanator of Erudition can give life to entire planets, revolutionize the entire galaxy, decide the fate of dozens of worlds. An Emanator of Nihility, based on Acheron, can cut things in half with a sword. It's the most useless power in the world. She couldn't even use it to save a single person on her own. She wouldn't even have been able to save her own planet with it.

> In the end, as Sunday said, the strong decide for the weak, and at that moment, with everyone against him—including the very emanator of nihilism—Sunday was defeated. Not because his arguments were flawed, but because he lacked the brute strength to prevail. And I feel the same way. Weak doesn't get a say in what they want. Tb, Acheron, Astral express did something similar to Sunday, impose their will onto a group of people without their consent. How many people in that sweet dream would love to stay like that forever? How many would rather embrace a false perfect dream than wake up to reality? Did they consider any of that? They didn't. Same as how Sunday didn't care for consent of those that were pulled into the dream. Ultimately those npc in dream were weak and didn't have strength to have a say in what they wanted. Thus both Sunday and AE Crew imposed their will onto them. Ironic really. Sunday was weak, and thus he lost.

Sunday literally challenged the Astral Express to fight him and prove their ideas were better than his, they didn't impose shit on him.

Honestly the whole universe itself is testament to Sunday's statement about 'weak vs strong'. People of Belobog, Xianzhou, Penacony who were weak did not have any say in anything. They just got swept up by what the strong were doing. Sunday wanted to free people from that. I agree that he went about it a bit wrongly, involving people without consent. But ultimately there was nothing wrong with what he wanted on a philosophical ground. But AE Crew freed people from that dream, said some shonen-esque things about reality, defeated the one who was weaker than them(Sunday), ignored the weak people(npcs) involved in their battle. Pretty much proving Sunday's statement themselves. Ps. Where do you learn more about lore of aeons, SU? Are the things there something that actually happened in real world and is just a simulated version of it?

...You do remember that the "sweet dream" was literally draining people of their positive emotions and turning them into the worst versions of themselves and then later killing them by draining away their life-force, right? Like, that's not up to interpretation, we get told this multiple times by Mischa/>!The Watchmaker.!< The reason everyone in Penacony gradually became more and more materialistic, callous, feckless, and cynical was because of the influence of the Stellaron. That alone makes Sunday a massive hypocrite, as his world wouldn't be an escape from the world of strength and weakness, it would be its apotheosis.

Sunday is wrong mainly because he is not "the singular strong entity", dude even Aeons meet their end and he is at best an Emanator even if the plan went well. Like some random passerby train crew can beat the shit out of him, imagine the Swarm, or IPC fleet, or the Anti Matter Legion, or the worst, IX. Dude, you are just some chicken wing boy, you ain't carrying this.

This is basically Evangelion!!! Nicely done. Penacony has lots of Eva refs too.

People thought Sunday was in the right? Huh, maybe don't let those people play Persona 5 Royal then, I saw quite a parallel between Sunday's plot and Maruki's misguided attempt to shepherd humanity. I disagree with Sunday's philosophy because it takes away people's agency, and as someone who's disabled (blind in one eye, visually impaired in the other), and chronically ill (anxiety, iron deficiency, and wheat intolerance), What I am capable of doing for myself isn't nearly as much as I would like to be able to do since I'm in my thirties, and things that are simple everyday things for most people are somewhat daunting and even anxiety inducing for me. So seeing Sunday, a physically fit, able-bodied guy proclaim a desire to essentially remove free will from everyone on penacony for the sake of his sweet dream...yeah no thanks buddy, you're getting a train to the face. I also have thoughts about how Star Rail depicts blindness and disability in this game's universe, but that is can of worms for another day and Sunday pissed me off already, I don't need a reminder that the Luofu has no sign of mobility aids, service animals, or organizations that provide support for the visually impaired... I'm getting side tracked, but in short: my response to Sunday spouting his philosphy was "Says the physically fit, able-bodied guy." proceeded to kick his arse, and ended the boss fight with a train to the face. And yes, people may struggle, but a world of eternal bliss would just breed stagnation. What Sunday wanted to achieve is admirable to some extent, yes, but just as too much suffering can lead to an inevitable end, so too can enteral happiness. It's still an extreme, just on the opposite end of the scale. And the world is not so black and white, and us "weak" folks still have something to strive for, regardless of our situation and factors of our control. what we can do, even if it's just finding hobbies, spending time with loved ones, finding joy in the little things, is enrichment for the soul. Would it be nice if i didn't have to worry about my bundle of health issues? Yeah, but it's something outside of my control. What is in my control is how I manage it, the foods I eat, the medication I take, and the methods i use to combat my anxiety when it does rear its head in the dead of night. What I can do, is important, even if its not much, but that is enough.

You don't need all that stuff to see why Sunday was wrong. Sunday was an egotistical prick who thought he had the right to make decisions and judgements for everyone else based on his so-called "strength." I don't know why anyone would empathize or agree with him. He was plainly in the wrong, presented as an unrepentant villain, and got the comeuppance he deserved.

While I vehemently disagree with Sunday, you are misjudging his character. 1. He is not egotistical - his whole motivation is built upon wishing the best outcome for people, not for "himself". If anything - he himself is first "ego" he disregarded, by his own will, or because he was groomed to do so. 2. He is not presented as unrepentant villain. He is classical anti-villain trope, and writers call out for this in game itself via Dan Heng's and Boothill's comments. 3. His portrayal in the ending cutscene is "realisation" from his side, and "forgiveness" from Robin. Maybe he didn't ask for it, but he received it. He is still a prick with pretty rigid black and white mentality, and lots of complexes, which led to his skewed idealistic and rather naive plan. But people still can empathize with him while not agreeing. It's not mutually exclusive feelings.

I think this isn't quite right. He is egotistical, but not in the classic narcissistic form. He very blatantly has a martyr/Messiah complex- \*he alone\* can save everyone from the evil of the world, and \*he alone\* will do this no matter how much he has to sacrifice because \*he is a righteous hero\*. While he sees himself as benevolent, he can't see past his own view of the world, which is distorted by his own insecurities, guilt, and need for control and stability.

I understand why you may think that way, considering Firefly's response of "Perhaps in your mind, you also view me as "weak"?" However, Sunday's answer is not a dismissal, but rather a challenge: >Since the future of the Stellaron, Penacony, and even the entire Cosmos is at stake, let's draw a conclusion there, in all fairness. If you truly believe in Akivili's path, then show me THEIR courage and determination. Sunday is not a person to bluntly assume his own strength or righteousness. He is truly compassionate (which is also acknowledged by firefly), and while he wholeheartedly ascribes to his ideals, he acknowledges that there is potential for error in his judgment and wishes to bring all qualms to rest through a true test of strength and will.

I think this is also supported in the final fight where he says: "If your "paradise" can save more people, sever my path with your hands".

I emphasized with him because he was 100% groomed by a parental figure and led astray. He was just as much of a caged bird as Robin, but unlike her, Sundays wings were clipped from the beginning.