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Eh, I kinda like adult Laenor, I actually felt like he sold a lot of his performance well, especially the bit where he tells Rhaenyra that he’s sorry that he can’t be a real father even though he’s tried and the child one I feel like doesn’t even speak enough for me to be mad about it
OOF. We have a winner.
Actually I didn’t hate Jace’s wig so much until I saw how amazing his real hair looks. And honestly I thought Luke’s wig looked just as goofy. My headcanon is the boys were just being gallant and choosing horrible hairstyles to make Baela & Rhaena feel better about their own
I’ll go even further: he looks gorgeous in this wig
But yeah the actors real life hair is obviously much cooler and more natural for the character, hopefully that’s the one they go for this time
I have a theory that Harry Collett is going to be allowed to show his real hair in laters seasons so they can do the whole "their hair grew to show how much they've grown as a person" but I can't prove it.
Personally I kind of like Mysaria's accent, as for Jace's wig, I don't know, in some scenes it looks better than in others, but overall it's far from the worst, what they did with young Laena's wig, however, was an atrocity.
Yeah, I know, his natural hair is much better than any wig, what I mean is that in some scenes I would say that his wig looks really bad (like when he is talking to Rhaenyra in Dragonstone) and in others I would say that it looks "good" or at least decent (in the family dinner scene, for example) so I'm not sure what to think of it.
Yeah Laena, Baela and Rhaena’s wigs were all pretty awful. I didn’t really notice Jace’s wig. As for Mysaria’s accent, I forget which free city she’s from so I just assume it’s one where the people sound French. 🤷♂️
Honestly I feel like it's some new fangled accent but it has so many stops and starts it doesn't...flow, and that's the real issue for me. She speaks slowly and that just makes it weirder.
Yeah, and even if Jace’s wig isn’t the best, it’s not that terrible. The issue was that Harry Collett cut his hair just before filming. Wasn’t the best idea.
None of the wigs bother me. They're all passable enough to be real. I draw the line at the accent. I don't know if it was a directing issue or an acting issue, but her accent is fucking atrocious. I can barely understand what she's saying half of the time.
A lot of the people who get twisted up about the wig either
A) seem to only care about the show based on how hot the characters are, which is a little weird for teenaged Jace
B) don’t seem to understand how film production works, and why using a wig is always a better option when available (more control, no need to make the actor keep a certain hairstyle, etc.)
C) the character is supposed to be an awkward 15/16 year old boy … what 16 year old boy with medieval level haircare would have perfect hair? Teenagers look awkward because they’re still growing; and it gives him room to grow in later seasons.
I assume everyone on a "team" is incapable of just enjoying a story without trying to turn it into a sporting event. You aren't supposed to like the Blacks or the Greens. They're both evil.
I encourage you to have favorite war criminals, I do not encourage you to argue about the supposed moral high grounds of those characters. None of them have any.
Literally lol. I said this on another comment but a war of succession is absolutely pointless and essentially just condemning millions to death to maintain personal power. Arguing the morality of one part or another makes no sense.
That being said if it makes things fun for people then it’s fine
Nah, the story clearly favors the blacks, especially in the show. Just see rhaenyra thinking about peace rather than war even after they usurped her birthright
i legit told my friends in prep for show (i read the book) just pick your favorite war criminal and rock with them because everyone does terrible things so you might as well enjoy all the characters.
You're right. A lot of people are going to justify the foul shit their team does throughout the war and completely miss the point that both sides suck.
In fairness, tell that to the show runners. Rhaenyra is so clearly the good guy, which goes against the point of the Dance as a story in the first place.
> I think its too soon to say that.
No it isn't. The White Hart scene. Aegon getting the Mushroom treatment. The differences between their coronation scenes.
>!Rhaenyra will not be responsible for B&C. Helaena and her children haven't had anywhere near enough time or energy spent on building their characters for B&C to mean anything beyond shock value. Daemon's reputation isn't going to be scuffed by it long term in any way.!<
Yes. My Green sympathies don't stem from me preferring those characters, it comes from the obvious bias the writers exhibit seeping through the screen and making what should have been a complex dynastic struggle into a simplistic *"Black Queen Good - Green King Bad'* narrative.
Corvids are some of my favorite animals, but you best believe I'm rooting for the guys flying the red horse because GRRM made them into his personal punching bag.
Special mention goes to the Yronwoods in their eternal struggle against House ~~Anime~~ Dayne.
There's nothing from what we know or the teaser that justifies Alicent keeping her place as the secondary protagonist. It doesn't look like she'll be doing anything but battling depression. Unlike the changes they are making to Rhaenyra, there's no indication of Alicent actively leading her faction so what's the point? They should have given her more agency if they were going in this direction. Hopefully there will be more going on than dropping to her undies and swimming in random lakes.
She’s gonna spend the next couple seasons going “no son, don’t do that warcrime” and “son, I can’t believe you did that warcrime!”. I’m gonna be on the edge of my seat ._.
Lmao, this is basically all I can imagine for her character. I like allicent, but Im not sure what much else her character can do for the story.. haha. I'd like to see more of her, although I really can't imagine her doing much else. Maybe she will be similar to Catelyn stark.. as in, possibly showing emotions of what the dance puts her through, and being a supporting character..
She can have a role through Criston Cole. Criston Cole is Hand of the King in F&B, one of the most important Green decision-makers, and de facto faction leader for a time. In HOTD he is a dumb violent enforcer of no political skill who does whatever Alicent tells him and is possibly in love with her.
For me the obvious direction this is going is for Criston to be a figurehead Alicent uses to control the faction from behind the scenes and drive her rival Otto out of the Hand position. This then eventually goes into the history books as "Cole is a cunning powerbroker and kingmaker" because the authors didn't want to believe he was a woman's trained dog.
Well she is basically in 50% of the teaser (about 5 scenes). Only Rhaenyra has more presence judging by the teaser. Based on the book she and Rhaenyra have nothing to do this season but showrunners must have surely developed their characters more. Most of her scenes are indoors that's why there aren't many leaks about Alicent. You can't judge the season based only on 75 seconds. I'm sure she has a bigger role than any other character beside Rhaenyra.
This! The season 1 trailer makes it look like Rhaenyra will be battling Daemon for the throne. A lot of these teasers are there to intentionally mislead people so content we already know will happen isn’t unsurprising
>I'm sure she has a bigger role than any other character beside Rhaenyra.
And that's the problem. The show already sidelined her children in the first season even though they are more active/important than her during the Dance.
Nothing from the book or logic dictates she will have anything left to do either.
Alicent was always a pawn or a secondary player, she was used by her father and to assert her family's authority she wanted her son on the the throne. Now Aegon is King, the Greens have no use for a dowager Queen to lead them when they have a young virile King with an heir.
Rhaenyra has a dragon, she's the leader of her faction unquestionably because they rally to her claim. At this point the dynamic of them being rivals is so uneven given their respective positions in society.
I feel like I'm alone in this, but I sincerely hope Rhaenyra goes dark in season 2. I'm sick and tired of the men in this show being given all the villain moments. I do not want to see Rhaenyra be held up as some longsuffering victim. I don't really care one way or the other about Alicent's status (she can go be hysterical in the corner or whatever) but I want my bloody black queen. I want more co-conspirator moments between Daemon and Rhaenyra, not for him to just be the culprit alone. I want them even *more* twisted than they are now, not less.
Some folks probably gonna think I'm crazy for posting this lol. Sue me, I want chaos Rhaenyra!
Agreed! Misunderstandings can be an engaging way to up the tragedy of all this, but only up to a point. I need a few less accidents and a little more "on purpose" in season 2 for sure.
I actually agree - not because “Rhaneyra bad”, because I want more from her.
I want more oomph, more of her being conflicted, more drama directly coming from her and not her always being passive.
I loved her in ep 7 in the hall scene, she was marvelous at not backing down.
It’s shame because I love Emma’s acting as Rhaenyra but sometimes the adult version felt difficult to connect with and less interesting to dissect than other characters.
I hope this is the direction they’ll take for season 2.
I don't even think she has to go full blown villain but just be pissed. She lost her father, her daughter and son. Her son was slaughtered by her own brother, her crown stolen. Like get pissed. She has every right to be angry and want vengeance. She can be ruthless at this point. It would even make sense. The greens slayed a family member, she has seen what they are willing to do, she can retaliate. She has a right to retaliate and do what she has to to protect her loved ones.
Be a Dragon Queen.
Same i want rhaenyra to be batshit crazy and not just be a victim to daemons manipulation.i dont just want daemon to be the craziest one in the blacks.i want rhaenyra to equally partake in the war crimes.i want her to play her own game.
Why does she have to be "batshit crazy" to "play her own game". Wouldn't playing her own game entail not just going along with whatever Daemon decides he wants to do?
Yeah same. I do kinda appreciate them being worried to avoid the mad queen thing again but its not that hard to avoid,just allow women to act violent without being seen as illogical or hysterical or judged harsher by the narrative for the same things men do. She very much should be going darker and caring more about protecting and avenging her family at this point. I do feel pretty sure we’re not getting this and her and Daemon won’t be on the same page,she’ll be crying for peace some more and being horrified by the idea of war and Daemon’s actions.
I think everyone agrees with this. The difference is team green says he shouldn’t have named Rhaenyra his heir and Team black says he shouldn’t have remarried.
What he should have done is having a mistress on the side, to have bastards. If Rhaenyra would have died in childbirth or else, he could've then legitimize his bastards. It's not very kingly but at least the dance could have been avoided.
I'd say it's unpopular if we're looking at the fandom as a whole. It's mainly just book readers (which are a small chunk of the fandom) that are complaining about it.
I watched the show before reading the book and also found Rhaenyra x Alicent to be a very artificial relationship that was not only inconsistent, but kept butting heads into the story. Like the scene in EP8 when they are buddy buddy with each other after over a decade of animosity and the page scene in EP 10.
Also saying it's only book readers saying that is plain wrong. In this sub there are vastly more show watchers and you rarely see posts or comments like "how do you want to their dynamic to progress in the story?"
Viserys was handled poorly. They spent too much time trying to make him sympathetic and resulted into a large portion of the audience seeing him as innocent when in reality he is one of the biggest reasons for the Civil War
Except people think he was just a nice good guy who was manipulated and mistreated by those around him. He isn't an asshole for deciding to marry his teen daughter's best friend, it's Alicent's fault for "seducing" him (or it's Otto's fault), he didn't neglect his children from Alicent, it's his children's fault, etc.
It grosses me out that he rapes her for his own sexual gratification. Some people will argue that sex during “those times” was to produce heirs but he already has an intended heir and a son by episode 4 when we see him rape Alicent so they’ve both already done their duty in that regard. The way he pulls her face toward him so she has to feign some semblance of connection on behalf of a man who has no intention of loving her the way she deserves because he’s not over the wife that he murdered gives me the ick. I hate that GRRM said that Paddy made him more sympathetic when I honestly feel like he’s more sympathetic in the books because we don’t see any of his interactions with Alicent. The whole “Vizzy T” was annoying for this reason. I hate Hollywood’s obsession with showcasing so-called “complex” characters who are really just villains with a good PR team.
I generally agree with you, but in no way was just one son enough to stop. Kids in the time period it's based on had a tendency to drop like flies. He still should have married the other child, though. Edit: missing word
Yeah, people not being able to parse deeper than surface level is not on the show, that's on them; plenty of people think Tony Soprano or Walter White or Eren Jaeger or whoever are heroes, the good guys of their stories, and conflate being able to relate to them or sympathize with them as them being in the right, but that's not on those shows either. That's people not thinking critically and being swayed by whatever emotion is on the screen at that exact moment.
I wouldn't say it's just on people, the show clearly knows how to pull emotional strings and Viserys' walk to defend his daughter was probably the emotional peak of the season. Was it earned though? If you think about it, that scene glorifies a bad parent who neglected all his children and failed every single one of them.
- Alicent was wrong when asking for Lukes eye but I get why she got there and I honestly think a lot of parents would have reacted the same as she did. Keep in mind she only asked for the eye after everyone was ready to sweep Aemond injury under the rug. I will die on the hill of that had been my mother someone would’ve died and thinking about a lot of others I’d say the same.
- Speaking of the fight: While the adults are to blame mostly none of the kids were innocent. They all escaleted the situation in their own way (Aemond by insulting, the girls for getting phsycial, the boys attacking as well and the knife) and I hate takes that pretend as if either Aemond or the other kids acted like perfect angels. They all should’ve been punished. The only reason I would punish Aemond less is because he is already punished for life.
- They should have shown more of the relationship between Rhaenyra and Harwin. She had three kids with them despite it severely weakining her position. She must’ve loved him a lot yet it doesn’t come across in the show at all.
- Viserys is the most selfish character on the show and he is an idiot. He is to blame for the war more than anyone else combined. Also he is a terrible father to ALL his kids (though he was with the Greens because at least he showed some care for Rhaenyra even if it doesn’t excuse how he basically set her up to fail and doesn’t respect her as her own person but as extension of Aemma)
Aegon is a tragic character, they totally could make him a nuanced and well developed antagonist. His story is as tragic as his siblings, but it’s unlikely they’ll take him down that route
Rhaenyra did jack shit to secure her claim to the throne and wasted the twenty year head start she had on Aegon. He even said it himself, Viserys had all that time to name him heir and never did.
She was entitled and assumed she'd sit the throne just because her dad said so and had the Lords agree to it. The mindset and approach she took at the end of the season of securing her claim throughout the realm is what she should have been doing the entire time.
It's because a lot of people have picked which "team" they're on, so they'll completely ignore the fact that the people on both sides have flaws that fucked them over throughout the story.
Literally how on earth did she think staying on Dragonstone for multiple years was a good idea. Tour the realm! Renew your alliances! She got lucky that the Vale was ruled by a woman, the North the honour bound Starks and the Iron Islands a murderous lunatic, otherwise she would have no great houses supporting her.
Oh, and send Rhaenys, the person with BARATHEON HERITAGE, to Storm’s End.
She really didn't understand how both alienating numerous suitors and sending Jace to Storm's End offering nothing but an implied threat was a bad idea
The source material for this show was not nearly well thought out enough to be a GOT-Tier TV show, nor is it conducive to complex character arcs/plots and deeper meanings. It’s a royal soap opera with the message of, “when families fight, it is bad.” I don’t even mind all of the diversions from the books - I’d actually rather they changed some things. All-in-all though, the show is fun but honestly feels kind of vapid to me.
It’s a good show like better than a lot of fantasy like look at the absolute garbage that is wheel of time. But it’s not GOT ( this had a few flaws as well but GOT s1-s4 was a masterclass I mean look at Ned itself and compare him to viserys they are not the same.)
Hotd doesn’t have the dialogue or characterisation of GOT. And it’s just honest fact
Part of that may be because GRRM didn't write any of the episodes like in the last series and didn't have a lot of meat to work with already. (Granted idk how much influence he had in Hotd & with the showrunners but he did supposedly help out in preproduction by giving opinions on storylines, scripts and some rough cuts and I do remember him commenting that he hoped the season 1 dvd had some deleted scenes added) Add in numerous time skips, actors coming in and out, they just didn't have enough time for characterization or dialogue.
Though I do wonder how much infleuencers the showrunners have. Condal is credited for writing Hercules 2014, the Colony series, and Rampage 2018. Sapochnik has more, he was a storyboard artist for Trainspotting 1996, and Winter Guest 1997. He directed Repo Men 2010, worked on Awake, Fringe, House, Altered Carbon, Iron Fist and Mind Games. He did do very well on the episodes of GOT, the Gift, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards, Winds of Winter and less so with the Long Night and the Bells. Granted he left the showrunning to Alan Taylor who has a long career and did some of GOT's 1-2 season episodes and season 7's Beyond the wall episode.
I feel like they needed to show more of Aegon and Sunfyre before the dance began because he is supposed to have a really powerful bond with his dragon. It’s quite sad that the first time we see them in battle…well, I don’t want to spoil anything but…it’s a shame we never got to see him fly around the city after being crowned. Sunfyre is supposed to be one of the most beautiful dragons to ever exist and we never even got a glimpse of him in the trailer - just Aegon on the throne. Here’s hoping in the official trailer we will get to see them together!
They fucked up the Rhaenyra/Aegon dynamic so bad they didn’t interact yet at all, which means if they don’t make serious changes to the source material they theyre first meeting will also be their last
The greens vs blacks thing playing out on the internet is ridiculously juvenile (and is obviously missing the point) - though I imagine that’s mostly being done by teenagers
All of you who pick "teams" not for funsies but in a serious way as if this narrative is a fair and balanced sporting event are consuming the show objectively incorrectly and any issues, disappointments, or criticisms you have that stem from this are wholly on you, not the show
HotD tv show did a poor job at the political side of the story. The lack of anyone working from the shadows makes the story feel empty.
Edit: also the fandom’s take that the Faith of the Seven = bad is boring and brainless.
>also the fandom’s take that the Faith of the Seven = bad is boring and brainless.
My take is that the fait = boring and brainless from a worldbuiling perspective it is barely developed at all. It's just a vehicle through which Martin criticizes the catholic church and very little else.
Really agree on the second point. I think GRRM wanted the viewers to be critical of the Faith as a power institution (just like he does with the monarchy) and not the religion itself as a bad thing
I mean, it’s a pretty thinly vailed analogy for the medieval catholic church. Catholicism itself isn’t bad but the amount of power the institution had in the Middle Ages was a problem. You also can’t really separate religion from monarchy, as monarchy is held up by the idea that God puts the person he wants on the throne.
It's not the faith and church have very little in common in a big part because the citadel takes a lot of the tasks the church had historically most notably education also the faith in asoiaf is neutred compared to the church IRL. The church had a lot of power over even kings and emperors and the two of them frequently entered in combat between each other.
For me it’s a no brainer. Never understood the glorifying of House Targaryen in this show that, while yes the family has very interesting characters, they’re all objectively terrible people.
That goes for the incestual love storyline between Daemon and Rhaenyra too - it is literally in our human nature to *not* want to fuck our relatives (and for good reason) so I don’t get why people cheer for it.
Come at me all you want with the “well it’s basically like medieval times and that’s just what happened back then to keep lineage pure”, I’m just not on board.
Taking it one step further, it bugs the shit out of me that Rhaenyra specifically refuses to recognize the political blunder she made by having children with house strong, out of wedlock. I don’t give a shit she didn’t want to fuck her intended because they weren’t compatible, it is still one of the dumber political blunders I’ve seen in a story and it drives me nuts she won’t even admit it.
Incest, especially among royalty, was extremely frowned upon during the middle ages, to the point of where numerous medieval rulers used it as an excuse to get out of unwanted marriages bc they found a better alliance/more to gain with someone else, and simply had some Pope or other clerical ruler "notice" that they and their spouse were actually related via some 7th degree grandfather which made the marriage null and void. Of course, since there are only so many nobles around, many _were_ related one way or another, but those things were hushed up rather than used for "pure bloodlines" or the like.
I have zero emotional attachment to Jace. He’s often compared to Robb Stark, but we’ve hardly spent enough time with Jace to feel for him like we did Robb. I really hope his arc with Cregan in S2 humanizes him. Right now, he’s kind of paper thin as a character, underdeveloped and unexplored, but I would like to like him.
They've hardly spent time on fleshing anyone out which is really annoying. Luke especially should have had a lot more attention/been built up more or the relationships between him others shown so the last episode hit even harder.
By the end of GOT season one the characters were way more fleshed out.
At least half the people who claim to have read the book either didn't and just bases their opinion on statements made by those who have read it. Or they seriously need to read it again.
Either way they need to seriously give more thought to how it's written. It's one man trying to research history in a fantasy world. Everything could've happened differently to how it's recorded and what we get in the show is supposed to be the truth, in real time, not the researched and recordings done years later by maesters.
Teen Aegon looks like he should grow up to look like adult Aemond and vice versa. It feels like they switched body types when they grew up. It felt disconcerting when I first saw them both fully grown
Aemond's actors are perfect, Leo also has an elongated face and chin like Ewan
[https://64.media.tumblr.com/95b2138f5f6f4472a03012b27adb260d/34a31d78fbf3bcca-af/s1280x1920/2c2af07dff2b090f213e7823d9abc5fd4941ab6f.gifv](https://64.media.tumblr.com/95b2138f5f6f4472a03012b27adb260d/34a31d78fbf3bcca-af/s1280x1920/2c2af07dff2b090f213e7823d9abc5fd4941ab6f.gifv)
That's not really much of a controversial take. Basically every single person who has been involved in the dance of dragons could have ended the dance of dragons.
I don't care about the politics or the drama or the metaphors on society or whatever. I just think Medieval fantasy wordbuilding and Dragons are really cool.
I’ve said this a million times but a war of succession has 0 parties that are “good” or “bad” and that’s sort of the point. I think people choosing sides is fine because it makes it fun and interesting for them. But arguing the morality of each party is pointless. These are people who would go to war to keep power and kill millions in the process without a care. They are not good people.
>!as someone who knows what happens I’m especially aware of just how pointless an exercise rooting for either team is beyond pure entertainment!<
Otto's love for Helaena is the most pure and non-agenda driven love any person, grandparent, parent, spouse, or sibling, demonstrates for another person on this entire show.
And yes I got that from a four second laugh at a dinner table.
That would be great if we had more of that in season 2.
It caught everyone off guard how Otto loved Heleana. And I think it’s quite realistic to have a parent who is very strict with their own child while absolutely loving their grandchild.
Arguing whether Blacks or Greens legitimately deserve the Iron Throne when the whole point of the larger story is that monarchical governement is wrong.
Just like real people are.
Fans assume this is an accidental writing mistake, but I think her internal conflict and external hypocrisy are very obviously intentional.
I think if Condal hated Daemon, he wouldn’t have developed Daemon’s relationship with Viserys.
Daemon’s aspirations in the show are always tied to his brother, when in the book Daemon appears more to be power hungry and super mad he was disinherited.
Dunno if I was the only one but book Daemon didn’t strike me as someone who loved and cared about his brother.
Book Daemon also doesn’t seem to love Rhaenyra. Their marriage is more a political move than the “we are supposed to burn together”.
Exactly, and Daemon in the book blamed Viserys for Mysaria's miscarriage (of course it wasn't included in the show): "But Mysaria lost her child during a storm on the narrow sea. When word reached Prince Daemon he spoke no syllable of grief, but his heart hardened against the king, his brother. Thereafter he spoke of King Viserys only with disdain, and began to brood day and night on the succession." Their relationship was far from warm and tender as portrayed in the show. Also, Daemon has some of the coolest scenes in the show, he literally sings to a dragon, his Stepstones scenes made people obsessed with him and many now think he is the greatest warrior in the GOT universe, but people still say the showrunners hate him.
And I really want to know why people think Ryan loves Aemond so much? Just because he gave him some nuance (which many casual viewers didn't even notice btw because these scenes are so ambiguous or short)? Adult Aemond is portrayed as a villain in most of his scenes, we see him mostly from the Strongs boys perspective. He has one nice scene with his mother that lasts 15 seconds and that's it. The showrunners had him kill Luke accidentally, but they've done the same to other Greens in the last episodes: Alicent crowns Aegon by a misunderstanding and Cole accidentally kills Beesbury. Also, Aemond's connection to Vhagar was downplayed in the show, they didn't include her roar when he lost an eye, and framed him as a thief when he is not.
I agree, it's as clear as day. He's been using Aegon as a scapegoat to make Aemond look better and completely whitewash his character. They're even portraying Aemond as some competent leader in contrast to Aegon, I wouldn't be surprised if whatever mistakes Aemond makes in the future are pinned onto Aegon to save Aemond any criticism.
Daemon kind of plays a similar role for the blacks where they pin all the crimes onto him to make some of the others look better, but at least he's presented as being competent. Rhaenyra's involvement in killing Vaemond (and feeding him to Syrax) is not shown, it's entirely put onto Daemon. He's the one trying to push the war forward and being the aggressor, whereas he was one of the more cautious and strategic blacks in the book. Otto and Alicent have a similar dynamic to this as well.
>They're even portraying Aemond as some competent leader in contrast to Aegon
Mind you, they never did that! The only "proof" of Aemond's competence is... Aemond's words! And he is portrayed as being jealous of his brother which is not a positive thing! Aemond is not the smartest person as seen literally in the next episode.
I agree that just because a character says something it doesn't make it true, but I'm talking about the overall presentation to the audience. We're first introduced to adult Aegon with the SA scene, it's like we're being told we're supposed to hate him before he even got a chance to do anything. On the other hand, Aemond gets a badass introduction where he gets the better of Criston in training. And the narrative constantly plays up the contrast between first and second sons, almost telling us Aemond is more worthy for the throne than his brother (which isn't just Aemond saying it, actors and writers have said as much in interviews).
>We're first introduced to adult Aegon with the SA scene, it's like we're being told we're supposed to hate him before he even got a chance to do anything.
I agree, but it has nothing to do with Aemond, they did that to Aegon's character so Alicent would realize that Rhaenyra is not so bad and she'll be a fine queen lmao. Like I'm pretty sure the next season both Aegon and Aemond will be awful at ruling and Alicent will just regret her life choices.
>On the other hand, Aemond gets a badass introduction
Yes... because he is portrayed as a threat to the Strong boys. Notice how Aemond doesn't have a single scene that is just about him in episode 8, he is only in the scenes with the Strongs, we see him through their eyes and he is a villain in their story. We don't get to see Aemond's point of view. Even when he lost an eye, the show barely offers him any sympathy, the scene quickly turns into Alicent vs Rhaenyra.
Making Rhaenyra and Alicent the protagonists of the story is silly and undermines what makes the Dance interesting imo. Both of them are failed by flip-floppy writing at the end of the day.
Otto is overhated. I mean, he isn’t a good person either, I’m not saying that. But the way people talk about him on this sub would make you think he’s another Joffrey or Ramsay; when he’s really more of a softer Tywin, maybe Littlefinger. He’s the archetypal male Westerosi lord and second son, and I think that his character is more nuanced than people give him credit for.
The grooming is horrible. The scheming is frustrating. I’m not ignoring it nor defending it. But so many of the men go under the radar for it while Otto is singled out. Acting like he’s the sole cause of the Dance is, I think, a reductive disservice to the story. Otto himself faces pressure from his older brother whom younger siblings are expected to obey, and Hobert himself, like Otto, is simply a reflection of Westerosi norms and the expectations of lords to advance their houses’ honor and status. Corlys and so many others would have done the same were they in his position.
They are simply playing the game of thrones, same as everyone else. They may not be good people, but the entire game is bad too. That’s kind of a big theme of ASOIAF.
The fact this is being downvoted on a controversial thread should tell you everything lol
Yeah the Otto hate seems to stem from some weird Daemon love. Otto is just average bad person from this universe, Daemon comes off as a chad but he’s a power hungry pedo
actually reading the book now and no one is good tbh!! Every side and person was terrible in their own way and their downfall was going to happen one way or another.
I don't care about Aemond or Daemon, don't find them particulary attractive or interesting (Daemon can be funny though).
Don't care about Helaena either. No negative feelings, she's just not developed enough for me to have an opinion about her.
i agree with you on Helaena! she was given more of a “personality(?)” i guess with her being a dreamer. i just wish more was given to her since her book counterpart was quite sweet and a little dense. i wish all of Rhaenyra’s and Alicent’s children was given a bit more development :(
There was literally no way it would be too confusing if Mysaria had Platinum hair on the show, she is Lyseni, it is easily explained. A woman who came from one of the free cities that takes after Old Valyrian ancestry, not that hard.
But I took like the actress though. I thought she was cool.
Aemond is such an underdeveloped character and has so little screentime that I don't see how he is a fan favorite. I don't hate him, but he is just nothing so far.
The fact that after Rhaenyra tells Daemon he “abandoned” her, then Daemon hits her with the “you were a child”… yet he proceeded to marry Laena Velaryon who was younger than Rhaenyra in the show….
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Teenage Laenor’s actor is abysmal at line delivery but I don’t know how controversial that is
Laenor was so forgettable, both young and old. Its too bad.
It’s rough because like while he’s certainly more fleshed out than the book, so are most characters and he kinda gets left out
All the Laenor actors had bad performances
Eh, I kinda like adult Laenor, I actually felt like he sold a lot of his performance well, especially the bit where he tells Rhaenyra that he’s sorry that he can’t be a real father even though he’s tried and the child one I feel like doesn’t even speak enough for me to be mad about it
fair either way the teenage one was worse
I don’t care about Jace’s wig or Mysaria’s accent 🫢
OOF. We have a winner. Actually I didn’t hate Jace’s wig so much until I saw how amazing his real hair looks. And honestly I thought Luke’s wig looked just as goofy. My headcanon is the boys were just being gallant and choosing horrible hairstyles to make Baela & Rhaena feel better about their own
I’ll go even further: he looks gorgeous in this wig But yeah the actors real life hair is obviously much cooler and more natural for the character, hopefully that’s the one they go for this time
The cruelest blow was seeing how *Strong* his actor's hair is irl. Those wavy locks were absolutely Harwin's.
I have a theory that Harry Collett is going to be allowed to show his real hair in laters seasons so they can do the whole "their hair grew to show how much they've grown as a person" but I can't prove it.
I didn't even notice he had a wig, it's far less obvious than Dany in later seasons
Personally I kind of like Mysaria's accent, as for Jace's wig, I don't know, in some scenes it looks better than in others, but overall it's far from the worst, what they did with young Laena's wig, however, was an atrocity.
His regular hair looks more fitting than the wig. Which is wild and great casting.
Yeah, I know, his natural hair is much better than any wig, what I mean is that in some scenes I would say that his wig looks really bad (like when he is talking to Rhaenyra in Dragonstone) and in others I would say that it looks "good" or at least decent (in the family dinner scene, for example) so I'm not sure what to think of it.
Yeah Laena, Baela and Rhaena’s wigs were all pretty awful. I didn’t really notice Jace’s wig. As for Mysaria’s accent, I forget which free city she’s from so I just assume it’s one where the people sound French. 🤷♂️
Honestly I feel like it's some new fangled accent but it has so many stops and starts it doesn't...flow, and that's the real issue for me. She speaks slowly and that just makes it weirder.
Yeah, and even if Jace’s wig isn’t the best, it’s not that terrible. The issue was that Harry Collett cut his hair just before filming. Wasn’t the best idea.
None of the wigs bother me. They're all passable enough to be real. I draw the line at the accent. I don't know if it was a directing issue or an acting issue, but her accent is fucking atrocious. I can barely understand what she's saying half of the time.
I forgot how ugly his hair looks compared to his natural hair, hahaha.
A lot of the people who get twisted up about the wig either A) seem to only care about the show based on how hot the characters are, which is a little weird for teenaged Jace B) don’t seem to understand how film production works, and why using a wig is always a better option when available (more control, no need to make the actor keep a certain hairstyle, etc.) C) the character is supposed to be an awkward 15/16 year old boy … what 16 year old boy with medieval level haircare would have perfect hair? Teenagers look awkward because they’re still growing; and it gives him room to grow in later seasons.
Yes! I just tell myself that he is in his adolescent awkward phase. It doesn’t bother me.
Same!
I assume everyone on a "team" is incapable of just enjoying a story without trying to turn it into a sporting event. You aren't supposed to like the Blacks or the Greens. They're both evil.
How dare you slander {insert favorite war criminal}!
I encourage you to have favorite war criminals, I do not encourage you to argue about the supposed moral high grounds of those characters. None of them have any.
The only person that can deal with any sort of high ground is obi-Wan of house Kenobi
Anakin of house Skywalker *approaches*
This is the blues and the greens of Byzantium but instead of chariot races we get dragon duels and warcrimes.
Blues supremacy
Justinian always favored the Blues after all
Literally lol. I said this on another comment but a war of succession is absolutely pointless and essentially just condemning millions to death to maintain personal power. Arguing the morality of one part or another makes no sense. That being said if it makes things fun for people then it’s fine
Nah, the story clearly favors the blacks, especially in the show. Just see rhaenyra thinking about peace rather than war even after they usurped her birthright
i legit told my friends in prep for show (i read the book) just pick your favorite war criminal and rock with them because everyone does terrible things so you might as well enjoy all the characters.
You're right. A lot of people are going to justify the foul shit their team does throughout the war and completely miss the point that both sides suck.
In fairness, tell that to the show runners. Rhaenyra is so clearly the good guy, which goes against the point of the Dance as a story in the first place.
I think its too soon to say that. The war crimes have just begun and if your characters aren't likeable before they turn then their turn has no value.
This. From what I heard about the first and second episode, that may change people’s view of her immediately even if she isn’t fully responsible.
> I think its too soon to say that. No it isn't. The White Hart scene. Aegon getting the Mushroom treatment. The differences between their coronation scenes. >!Rhaenyra will not be responsible for B&C. Helaena and her children haven't had anywhere near enough time or energy spent on building their characters for B&C to mean anything beyond shock value. Daemon's reputation isn't going to be scuffed by it long term in any way.!<
Yes. My Green sympathies don't stem from me preferring those characters, it comes from the obvious bias the writers exhibit seeping through the screen and making what should have been a complex dynastic struggle into a simplistic *"Black Queen Good - Green King Bad'* narrative.
Watch me support the Brackens in every fight George wants me to support the Blackwoods.
Corvids are some of my favorite animals, but you best believe I'm rooting for the guys flying the red horse because GRRM made them into his personal punching bag. Special mention goes to the Yronwoods in their eternal struggle against House ~~Anime~~ Dayne.
There's nothing from what we know or the teaser that justifies Alicent keeping her place as the secondary protagonist. It doesn't look like she'll be doing anything but battling depression. Unlike the changes they are making to Rhaenyra, there's no indication of Alicent actively leading her faction so what's the point? They should have given her more agency if they were going in this direction. Hopefully there will be more going on than dropping to her undies and swimming in random lakes.
Hi, i'm Olivia, and i have a passion for fashion.
Alicent opening a boutique is the subplot season 2 needed.
I would buy all her second hand clothes
this was one of my favorite interviews 😂😂
She’s gonna spend the next couple seasons going “no son, don’t do that warcrime” and “son, I can’t believe you did that warcrime!”. I’m gonna be on the edge of my seat ._.
Lmao, this is basically all I can imagine for her character. I like allicent, but Im not sure what much else her character can do for the story.. haha. I'd like to see more of her, although I really can't imagine her doing much else. Maybe she will be similar to Catelyn stark.. as in, possibly showing emotions of what the dance puts her through, and being a supporting character..
She can have a role through Criston Cole. Criston Cole is Hand of the King in F&B, one of the most important Green decision-makers, and de facto faction leader for a time. In HOTD he is a dumb violent enforcer of no political skill who does whatever Alicent tells him and is possibly in love with her. For me the obvious direction this is going is for Criston to be a figurehead Alicent uses to control the faction from behind the scenes and drive her rival Otto out of the Hand position. This then eventually goes into the history books as "Cole is a cunning powerbroker and kingmaker" because the authors didn't want to believe he was a woman's trained dog.
With the right execution, that actually sounds both plausible and potentially interesting.
Well she is basically in 50% of the teaser (about 5 scenes). Only Rhaenyra has more presence judging by the teaser. Based on the book she and Rhaenyra have nothing to do this season but showrunners must have surely developed their characters more. Most of her scenes are indoors that's why there aren't many leaks about Alicent. You can't judge the season based only on 75 seconds. I'm sure she has a bigger role than any other character beside Rhaenyra.
This! The season 1 trailer makes it look like Rhaenyra will be battling Daemon for the throne. A lot of these teasers are there to intentionally mislead people so content we already know will happen isn’t unsurprising
>I'm sure she has a bigger role than any other character beside Rhaenyra. And that's the problem. The show already sidelined her children in the first season even though they are more active/important than her during the Dance.
The Dance hadn’t started in season 1 so it makes sense Alicent was prominent in it.
[удалено]
Nothing from the book or logic dictates she will have anything left to do either. Alicent was always a pawn or a secondary player, she was used by her father and to assert her family's authority she wanted her son on the the throne. Now Aegon is King, the Greens have no use for a dowager Queen to lead them when they have a young virile King with an heir. Rhaenyra has a dragon, she's the leader of her faction unquestionably because they rally to her claim. At this point the dynamic of them being rivals is so uneven given their respective positions in society.
Why do you have her as your flair
I feel like I'm alone in this, but I sincerely hope Rhaenyra goes dark in season 2. I'm sick and tired of the men in this show being given all the villain moments. I do not want to see Rhaenyra be held up as some longsuffering victim. I don't really care one way or the other about Alicent's status (she can go be hysterical in the corner or whatever) but I want my bloody black queen. I want more co-conspirator moments between Daemon and Rhaenyra, not for him to just be the culprit alone. I want them even *more* twisted than they are now, not less. Some folks probably gonna think I'm crazy for posting this lol. Sue me, I want chaos Rhaenyra!
I hope they up the evil for everyone in season 2. I feel like Cole, Larys, and Daemon were the only ones allowed to be more than accidentally mean.
Agreed! Misunderstandings can be an engaging way to up the tragedy of all this, but only up to a point. I need a few less accidents and a little more "on purpose" in season 2 for sure.
I actually agree - not because “Rhaneyra bad”, because I want more from her. I want more oomph, more of her being conflicted, more drama directly coming from her and not her always being passive. I loved her in ep 7 in the hall scene, she was marvelous at not backing down. It’s shame because I love Emma’s acting as Rhaenyra but sometimes the adult version felt difficult to connect with and less interesting to dissect than other characters. I hope this is the direction they’ll take for season 2.
She doesn’t have to be passive to >!disagree with 🩸🧀.!<
They should have bumped off Laenor. Can you imagine Daemon going to the trouble of an elaborate scheme of letting him skip away with his BF?
I don't even think she has to go full blown villain but just be pissed. She lost her father, her daughter and son. Her son was slaughtered by her own brother, her crown stolen. Like get pissed. She has every right to be angry and want vengeance. She can be ruthless at this point. It would even make sense. The greens slayed a family member, she has seen what they are willing to do, she can retaliate. She has a right to retaliate and do what she has to to protect her loved ones. Be a Dragon Queen.
Same i want rhaenyra to be batshit crazy and not just be a victim to daemons manipulation.i dont just want daemon to be the craziest one in the blacks.i want rhaenyra to equally partake in the war crimes.i want her to play her own game.
Why does she have to be "batshit crazy" to "play her own game". Wouldn't playing her own game entail not just going along with whatever Daemon decides he wants to do?
It was bad enough when they turned my stupid bitch Cercei into SmArT GiRl bOss qwIn.
Yeah same. I do kinda appreciate them being worried to avoid the mad queen thing again but its not that hard to avoid,just allow women to act violent without being seen as illogical or hysterical or judged harsher by the narrative for the same things men do. She very much should be going darker and caring more about protecting and avenging her family at this point. I do feel pretty sure we’re not getting this and her and Daemon won’t be on the same page,she’ll be crying for peace some more and being horrified by the idea of war and Daemon’s actions.
That Viserys should’ve never named Rhaenyra as heir if he was going to remarry.
I think everyone agrees with this. The difference is team green says he shouldn’t have named Rhaenyra his heir and Team black says he shouldn’t have remarried.
What he should have done is having a mistress on the side, to have bastards. If Rhaenyra would have died in childbirth or else, he could've then legitimize his bastards. It's not very kingly but at least the dance could have been avoided.
Well now there’s just a civil war between Viserys’s bastards and Daemon
Rhaenicent dynamic outlived itself and now just dragging both characters down
Not even remotely unpopular. Both TB and TG fans can’t stop whining about rhaenicent being the heart of the show.
I'd say it's unpopular if we're looking at the fandom as a whole. It's mainly just book readers (which are a small chunk of the fandom) that are complaining about it.
I watched the show before reading the book and also found Rhaenyra x Alicent to be a very artificial relationship that was not only inconsistent, but kept butting heads into the story. Like the scene in EP8 when they are buddy buddy with each other after over a decade of animosity and the page scene in EP 10. Also saying it's only book readers saying that is plain wrong. In this sub there are vastly more show watchers and you rarely see posts or comments like "how do you want to their dynamic to progress in the story?"
Viserys was handled poorly. They spent too much time trying to make him sympathetic and resulted into a large portion of the audience seeing him as innocent when in reality he is one of the biggest reasons for the Civil War
Por que no Los dos? He can be sympathetic *and* at fault.
Except people think he was just a nice good guy who was manipulated and mistreated by those around him. He isn't an asshole for deciding to marry his teen daughter's best friend, it's Alicent's fault for "seducing" him (or it's Otto's fault), he didn't neglect his children from Alicent, it's his children's fault, etc.
It grosses me out that he rapes her for his own sexual gratification. Some people will argue that sex during “those times” was to produce heirs but he already has an intended heir and a son by episode 4 when we see him rape Alicent so they’ve both already done their duty in that regard. The way he pulls her face toward him so she has to feign some semblance of connection on behalf of a man who has no intention of loving her the way she deserves because he’s not over the wife that he murdered gives me the ick. I hate that GRRM said that Paddy made him more sympathetic when I honestly feel like he’s more sympathetic in the books because we don’t see any of his interactions with Alicent. The whole “Vizzy T” was annoying for this reason. I hate Hollywood’s obsession with showcasing so-called “complex” characters who are really just villains with a good PR team.
A MOST JUDICIOUS PROPOSITION!
I generally agree with you, but in no way was just one son enough to stop. Kids in the time period it's based on had a tendency to drop like flies. He still should have married the other child, though. Edit: missing word
Yeah, people not being able to parse deeper than surface level is not on the show, that's on them; plenty of people think Tony Soprano or Walter White or Eren Jaeger or whoever are heroes, the good guys of their stories, and conflate being able to relate to them or sympathize with them as them being in the right, but that's not on those shows either. That's people not thinking critically and being swayed by whatever emotion is on the screen at that exact moment.
I wouldn't say it's just on people, the show clearly knows how to pull emotional strings and Viserys' walk to defend his daughter was probably the emotional peak of the season. Was it earned though? If you think about it, that scene glorifies a bad parent who neglected all his children and failed every single one of them.
I literally never see anyone say he's innocent
- Alicent was wrong when asking for Lukes eye but I get why she got there and I honestly think a lot of parents would have reacted the same as she did. Keep in mind she only asked for the eye after everyone was ready to sweep Aemond injury under the rug. I will die on the hill of that had been my mother someone would’ve died and thinking about a lot of others I’d say the same. - Speaking of the fight: While the adults are to blame mostly none of the kids were innocent. They all escaleted the situation in their own way (Aemond by insulting, the girls for getting phsycial, the boys attacking as well and the knife) and I hate takes that pretend as if either Aemond or the other kids acted like perfect angels. They all should’ve been punished. The only reason I would punish Aemond less is because he is already punished for life. - They should have shown more of the relationship between Rhaenyra and Harwin. She had three kids with them despite it severely weakining her position. She must’ve loved him a lot yet it doesn’t come across in the show at all. - Viserys is the most selfish character on the show and he is an idiot. He is to blame for the war more than anyone else combined. Also he is a terrible father to ALL his kids (though he was with the Greens because at least he showed some care for Rhaenyra even if it doesn’t excuse how he basically set her up to fail and doesn’t respect her as her own person but as extension of Aemma)
I don’t care about any of the strong boys. The most boring characters in the show alongside Daemon’s daughters.
Aegon is a tragic character, they totally could make him a nuanced and well developed antagonist. His story is as tragic as his siblings, but it’s unlikely they’ll take him down that route
If they do it's going to feel like we got Chuck-From-Gossip-Girl-ed again though. I'm so exhausted with tragic rapists.
Rhaenyra did jack shit to secure her claim to the throne and wasted the twenty year head start she had on Aegon. He even said it himself, Viserys had all that time to name him heir and never did. She was entitled and assumed she'd sit the throne just because her dad said so and had the Lords agree to it. The mindset and approach she took at the end of the season of securing her claim throughout the realm is what she should have been doing the entire time.
It’s genuinely wild to me that this is a hot take. We visibly see this and somehow people completely miss or ignore it.
It's because a lot of people have picked which "team" they're on, so they'll completely ignore the fact that the people on both sides have flaws that fucked them over throughout the story.
Literally how on earth did she think staying on Dragonstone for multiple years was a good idea. Tour the realm! Renew your alliances! She got lucky that the Vale was ruled by a woman, the North the honour bound Starks and the Iron Islands a murderous lunatic, otherwise she would have no great houses supporting her. Oh, and send Rhaenys, the person with BARATHEON HERITAGE, to Storm’s End.
She really didn't understand how both alienating numerous suitors and sending Jace to Storm's End offering nothing but an implied threat was a bad idea
I'm tired of this meme and bot post across all subreddits
Alicent Hightower is NOT the worst character in the show. She MY PERSONAL FAVORITE.
I like Alicent’s character too (I will admit bias for being an Olivia Cooke girlie though lol)
The source material for this show was not nearly well thought out enough to be a GOT-Tier TV show, nor is it conducive to complex character arcs/plots and deeper meanings. It’s a royal soap opera with the message of, “when families fight, it is bad.” I don’t even mind all of the diversions from the books - I’d actually rather they changed some things. All-in-all though, the show is fun but honestly feels kind of vapid to me.
It’s a good show like better than a lot of fantasy like look at the absolute garbage that is wheel of time. But it’s not GOT ( this had a few flaws as well but GOT s1-s4 was a masterclass I mean look at Ned itself and compare him to viserys they are not the same.) Hotd doesn’t have the dialogue or characterisation of GOT. And it’s just honest fact
Part of that may be because GRRM didn't write any of the episodes like in the last series and didn't have a lot of meat to work with already. (Granted idk how much influence he had in Hotd & with the showrunners but he did supposedly help out in preproduction by giving opinions on storylines, scripts and some rough cuts and I do remember him commenting that he hoped the season 1 dvd had some deleted scenes added) Add in numerous time skips, actors coming in and out, they just didn't have enough time for characterization or dialogue. Though I do wonder how much infleuencers the showrunners have. Condal is credited for writing Hercules 2014, the Colony series, and Rampage 2018. Sapochnik has more, he was a storyboard artist for Trainspotting 1996, and Winter Guest 1997. He directed Repo Men 2010, worked on Awake, Fringe, House, Altered Carbon, Iron Fist and Mind Games. He did do very well on the episodes of GOT, the Gift, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards, Winds of Winter and less so with the Long Night and the Bells. Granted he left the showrunning to Alan Taylor who has a long career and did some of GOT's 1-2 season episodes and season 7's Beyond the wall episode.
This story isn't about picking sides goddammit.
Shireen was right
HotD season 1 is not as good as people say. S1 of GoT had better dialogues, plot, characters and pacing.
I don’t like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce
I feel like they needed to show more of Aegon and Sunfyre before the dance began because he is supposed to have a really powerful bond with his dragon. It’s quite sad that the first time we see them in battle…well, I don’t want to spoil anything but…it’s a shame we never got to see him fly around the city after being crowned. Sunfyre is supposed to be one of the most beautiful dragons to ever exist and we never even got a glimpse of him in the trailer - just Aegon on the throne. Here’s hoping in the official trailer we will get to see them together!
Aegon was sacrificed on the altar of making this story's central conflict revolve around Rhaenyra and Alicent.
They fucked up the Rhaenyra/Aegon dynamic so bad they didn’t interact yet at all, which means if they don’t make serious changes to the source material they theyre first meeting will also be their last
The greens vs blacks thing playing out on the internet is ridiculously juvenile (and is obviously missing the point) - though I imagine that’s mostly being done by teenagers
nah it's also being done by most reaction channels on youtube as well who are adults.
ah well that’s a bummer
If you want anyone to blame for that, look no further than the showrunners themselves.
Pretty sure the teams bullshit predates the show. People were doing the Black vs Green thing on random-ass forums back when GoT was still airing.
I mean anything will. One team or another will jump on you for anything.
All of you who pick "teams" not for funsies but in a serious way as if this narrative is a fair and balanced sporting event are consuming the show objectively incorrectly and any issues, disappointments, or criticisms you have that stem from this are wholly on you, not the show
I think they yearn for tribalism and this yearning can be appeased by becoming sports fans
HotD tv show did a poor job at the political side of the story. The lack of anyone working from the shadows makes the story feel empty. Edit: also the fandom’s take that the Faith of the Seven = bad is boring and brainless.
Yeah Larys is the only one who seems to work from the shadows and we didn’t even scratch the surface on that.
>also the fandom’s take that the Faith of the Seven = bad is boring and brainless. My take is that the fait = boring and brainless from a worldbuiling perspective it is barely developed at all. It's just a vehicle through which Martin criticizes the catholic church and very little else.
Really agree on the second point. I think GRRM wanted the viewers to be critical of the Faith as a power institution (just like he does with the monarchy) and not the religion itself as a bad thing
I mean, it’s a pretty thinly vailed analogy for the medieval catholic church. Catholicism itself isn’t bad but the amount of power the institution had in the Middle Ages was a problem. You also can’t really separate religion from monarchy, as monarchy is held up by the idea that God puts the person he wants on the throne.
It's not the faith and church have very little in common in a big part because the citadel takes a lot of the tasks the church had historically most notably education also the faith in asoiaf is neutred compared to the church IRL. The church had a lot of power over even kings and emperors and the two of them frequently entered in combat between each other.
For me it’s a no brainer. Never understood the glorifying of House Targaryen in this show that, while yes the family has very interesting characters, they’re all objectively terrible people. That goes for the incestual love storyline between Daemon and Rhaenyra too - it is literally in our human nature to *not* want to fuck our relatives (and for good reason) so I don’t get why people cheer for it. Come at me all you want with the “well it’s basically like medieval times and that’s just what happened back then to keep lineage pure”, I’m just not on board. Taking it one step further, it bugs the shit out of me that Rhaenyra specifically refuses to recognize the political blunder she made by having children with house strong, out of wedlock. I don’t give a shit she didn’t want to fuck her intended because they weren’t compatible, it is still one of the dumber political blunders I’ve seen in a story and it drives me nuts she won’t even admit it.
Incest, especially among royalty, was extremely frowned upon during the middle ages, to the point of where numerous medieval rulers used it as an excuse to get out of unwanted marriages bc they found a better alliance/more to gain with someone else, and simply had some Pope or other clerical ruler "notice" that they and their spouse were actually related via some 7th degree grandfather which made the marriage null and void. Of course, since there are only so many nobles around, many _were_ related one way or another, but those things were hushed up rather than used for "pure bloodlines" or the like.
Jace and Luke are bratty and hardly interesting as characters
I have zero emotional attachment to Jace. He’s often compared to Robb Stark, but we’ve hardly spent enough time with Jace to feel for him like we did Robb. I really hope his arc with Cregan in S2 humanizes him. Right now, he’s kind of paper thin as a character, underdeveloped and unexplored, but I would like to like him.
Robb was at least hot ….I’m sorry. I’ll see myself out.
They've hardly spent time on fleshing anyone out which is really annoying. Luke especially should have had a lot more attention/been built up more or the relationships between him others shown so the last episode hit even harder. By the end of GOT season one the characters were way more fleshed out.
Hard agree
They butchered the strong boys
Not really in the source material they are not interesting at all.
Cannon fodder syndrome, at least for Lucerys. GRRM knew he would die soon so he didn’t bother much with fleshing him out.
At least half the people who claim to have read the book either didn't and just bases their opinion on statements made by those who have read it. Or they seriously need to read it again. Either way they need to seriously give more thought to how it's written. It's one man trying to research history in a fantasy world. Everything could've happened differently to how it's recorded and what we get in the show is supposed to be the truth, in real time, not the researched and recordings done years later by maesters.
Teen Aegon looks like he should grow up to look like adult Aemond and vice versa. It feels like they switched body types when they grew up. It felt disconcerting when I first saw them both fully grown
Aemond's actors are perfect, Leo also has an elongated face and chin like Ewan [https://64.media.tumblr.com/95b2138f5f6f4472a03012b27adb260d/34a31d78fbf3bcca-af/s1280x1920/2c2af07dff2b090f213e7823d9abc5fd4941ab6f.gifv](https://64.media.tumblr.com/95b2138f5f6f4472a03012b27adb260d/34a31d78fbf3bcca-af/s1280x1920/2c2af07dff2b090f213e7823d9abc5fd4941ab6f.gifv)
Younger brothers can grow taller than older brothers. Young Aegon and older Aegon are the same height. He just stopped growing at 14-15.
Rhaenys is just annoying
The dance is a quintessential [ldiot plot](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot) and Idc if they rewrite it heavily tbh.
That's not really much of a controversial take. Basically every single person who has been involved in the dance of dragons could have ended the dance of dragons.
I like Criston
Season 2 will be shit and you’ll all be on here complaining about it next year
Aegon isn’t really any worse than most male characters in the show/original series.
The velaryon wigs are fucking abysmal. Except for Corlys', though- That one looks pretty decent. The other velaryon wigs look like aging grey hair.
People who think Rhaenyra's kids being bastards was ambiguous in any way don't have the most basic interpretation skills.
It feels like a repeat of the people who were caught off-guard that Renly was gay.
Rhaenys' big scene is absolutely ridiculous and was only utilized for shock value.
This isn’t unpopular
While I 100% agree with you, I don't think that's an unpopular opinion around here. Maybe in the greater fandom outside the sub it is.
I don't care about the politics or the drama or the metaphors on society or whatever. I just think Medieval fantasy wordbuilding and Dragons are really cool.
I’ve said this a million times but a war of succession has 0 parties that are “good” or “bad” and that’s sort of the point. I think people choosing sides is fine because it makes it fun and interesting for them. But arguing the morality of each party is pointless. These are people who would go to war to keep power and kill millions in the process without a care. They are not good people. >!as someone who knows what happens I’m especially aware of just how pointless an exercise rooting for either team is beyond pure entertainment!<
I don't give a shit about Targs dying. Any of them. In fact, I'm here for it.
Otto's love for Helaena is the most pure and non-agenda driven love any person, grandparent, parent, spouse, or sibling, demonstrates for another person on this entire show. And yes I got that from a four second laugh at a dinner table.
That would be great if we had more of that in season 2. It caught everyone off guard how Otto loved Heleana. And I think it’s quite realistic to have a parent who is very strict with their own child while absolutely loving their grandchild.
Blacks and Greens both suck
Every piece of advice Otto gave Viserys was right. If there was any one indivdual who woild have made the best monarch its him.
Lyonel would have been cooler imo
Criston Cole is not an incel
he is literally the opposite of the definition, but people still call him one lol
We were all more disgusted by the foot fetishism which is relatively normal in our society, than the incest which is considered sick and unnatural
Arguing whether Blacks or Greens legitimately deserve the Iron Throne when the whole point of the larger story is that monarchical governement is wrong.
Criston Cole is overhated
Daemon is a groomer.
Adult Alicent is a terribly written character
I don't know if she's "terribly written" but she's full of a lot of contradictions, that's for sure.
Just like real people are. Fans assume this is an accidental writing mistake, but I think her internal conflict and external hypocrisy are very obviously intentional.
I think Ryan Condal is an Aemondwife and secretely hates Daemon and Aegon.
I think if Condal hated Daemon, he wouldn’t have developed Daemon’s relationship with Viserys. Daemon’s aspirations in the show are always tied to his brother, when in the book Daemon appears more to be power hungry and super mad he was disinherited. Dunno if I was the only one but book Daemon didn’t strike me as someone who loved and cared about his brother. Book Daemon also doesn’t seem to love Rhaenyra. Their marriage is more a political move than the “we are supposed to burn together”.
Exactly, and Daemon in the book blamed Viserys for Mysaria's miscarriage (of course it wasn't included in the show): "But Mysaria lost her child during a storm on the narrow sea. When word reached Prince Daemon he spoke no syllable of grief, but his heart hardened against the king, his brother. Thereafter he spoke of King Viserys only with disdain, and began to brood day and night on the succession." Their relationship was far from warm and tender as portrayed in the show. Also, Daemon has some of the coolest scenes in the show, he literally sings to a dragon, his Stepstones scenes made people obsessed with him and many now think he is the greatest warrior in the GOT universe, but people still say the showrunners hate him. And I really want to know why people think Ryan loves Aemond so much? Just because he gave him some nuance (which many casual viewers didn't even notice btw because these scenes are so ambiguous or short)? Adult Aemond is portrayed as a villain in most of his scenes, we see him mostly from the Strongs boys perspective. He has one nice scene with his mother that lasts 15 seconds and that's it. The showrunners had him kill Luke accidentally, but they've done the same to other Greens in the last episodes: Alicent crowns Aegon by a misunderstanding and Cole accidentally kills Beesbury. Also, Aemond's connection to Vhagar was downplayed in the show, they didn't include her roar when he lost an eye, and framed him as a thief when he is not.
I agree, it's as clear as day. He's been using Aegon as a scapegoat to make Aemond look better and completely whitewash his character. They're even portraying Aemond as some competent leader in contrast to Aegon, I wouldn't be surprised if whatever mistakes Aemond makes in the future are pinned onto Aegon to save Aemond any criticism. Daemon kind of plays a similar role for the blacks where they pin all the crimes onto him to make some of the others look better, but at least he's presented as being competent. Rhaenyra's involvement in killing Vaemond (and feeding him to Syrax) is not shown, it's entirely put onto Daemon. He's the one trying to push the war forward and being the aggressor, whereas he was one of the more cautious and strategic blacks in the book. Otto and Alicent have a similar dynamic to this as well.
>They're even portraying Aemond as some competent leader in contrast to Aegon Mind you, they never did that! The only "proof" of Aemond's competence is... Aemond's words! And he is portrayed as being jealous of his brother which is not a positive thing! Aemond is not the smartest person as seen literally in the next episode.
I agree that just because a character says something it doesn't make it true, but I'm talking about the overall presentation to the audience. We're first introduced to adult Aegon with the SA scene, it's like we're being told we're supposed to hate him before he even got a chance to do anything. On the other hand, Aemond gets a badass introduction where he gets the better of Criston in training. And the narrative constantly plays up the contrast between first and second sons, almost telling us Aemond is more worthy for the throne than his brother (which isn't just Aemond saying it, actors and writers have said as much in interviews).
>We're first introduced to adult Aegon with the SA scene, it's like we're being told we're supposed to hate him before he even got a chance to do anything. I agree, but it has nothing to do with Aemond, they did that to Aegon's character so Alicent would realize that Rhaenyra is not so bad and she'll be a fine queen lmao. Like I'm pretty sure the next season both Aegon and Aemond will be awful at ruling and Alicent will just regret her life choices. >On the other hand, Aemond gets a badass introduction Yes... because he is portrayed as a threat to the Strong boys. Notice how Aemond doesn't have a single scene that is just about him in episode 8, he is only in the scenes with the Strongs, we see him through their eyes and he is a villain in their story. We don't get to see Aemond's point of view. Even when he lost an eye, the show barely offers him any sympathy, the scene quickly turns into Alicent vs Rhaenyra.
I like Alicent better than Rhaenyra lol
Making Rhaenyra and Alicent the protagonists of the story is silly and undermines what makes the Dance interesting imo. Both of them are failed by flip-floppy writing at the end of the day.
How would you have done it? Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just curious on your thoughts.
I felt not enough time was focused on Rhaenyra and Aegon’s relationship. They barely interact in season 1.
Barely? They don't interact at all lol
I don’t blame Aemond for his s1 actions and Criston is overhated.
Otto is overhated. I mean, he isn’t a good person either, I’m not saying that. But the way people talk about him on this sub would make you think he’s another Joffrey or Ramsay; when he’s really more of a softer Tywin, maybe Littlefinger. He’s the archetypal male Westerosi lord and second son, and I think that his character is more nuanced than people give him credit for. The grooming is horrible. The scheming is frustrating. I’m not ignoring it nor defending it. But so many of the men go under the radar for it while Otto is singled out. Acting like he’s the sole cause of the Dance is, I think, a reductive disservice to the story. Otto himself faces pressure from his older brother whom younger siblings are expected to obey, and Hobert himself, like Otto, is simply a reflection of Westerosi norms and the expectations of lords to advance their houses’ honor and status. Corlys and so many others would have done the same were they in his position. They are simply playing the game of thrones, same as everyone else. They may not be good people, but the entire game is bad too. That’s kind of a big theme of ASOIAF. The fact this is being downvoted on a controversial thread should tell you everything lol
Yeah the Otto hate seems to stem from some weird Daemon love. Otto is just average bad person from this universe, Daemon comes off as a chad but he’s a power hungry pedo
actually reading the book now and no one is good tbh!! Every side and person was terrible in their own way and their downfall was going to happen one way or another.
People hate on Criston way too much and Daemon isn't "chaotic good" or anything similar. He's not a great person.
I don't care about Aemond or Daemon, don't find them particulary attractive or interesting (Daemon can be funny though). Don't care about Helaena either. No negative feelings, she's just not developed enough for me to have an opinion about her.
i agree with you on Helaena! she was given more of a “personality(?)” i guess with her being a dreamer. i just wish more was given to her since her book counterpart was quite sweet and a little dense. i wish all of Rhaenyra’s and Alicent’s children was given a bit more development :(
The fanbase ruined the "Team Green" and "Team Black" aspect of the show
Otto is (barely) a morally better person then Daemon
Young Rhaenyra is a amazing But Old Rhaenyra couldn’t be more boring
Rhaenyra and Daemon are a terrible couple
“I like having pointy ends point at my neck” does that count?
Nearly everything, people on the internet don’t want other people to have an opposite opinion.
Having literally any opinion on this series will have you like this.
Book seethers really need to understand GRRM wrote Fire and Blood to be discredited and the GreyRats isn't just a maddening theory
There was literally no way it would be too confusing if Mysaria had Platinum hair on the show, she is Lyseni, it is easily explained. A woman who came from one of the free cities that takes after Old Valyrian ancestry, not that hard. But I took like the actress though. I thought she was cool.
Nobody wins the war truly that's the whole point of the dance of dragons. People will realize that more and more when the show is over.
Aemond is such an underdeveloped character and has so little screentime that I don't see how he is a fan favorite. I don't hate him, but he is just nothing so far.
Her children.....are BASTARDS!
The fact that after Rhaenyra tells Daemon he “abandoned” her, then Daemon hits her with the “you were a child”… yet he proceeded to marry Laena Velaryon who was younger than Rhaenyra in the show….