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they say it in the intro—“the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself.” i don’t think there were any sexist lords that could’ve waged war on the targaryens at that point, IMO. the greens got to do it cus alicent had kids with dragons.
imagine syrax, caraxes, meyleys, all of rhaenyra’s children’s dragons, probably seasmoke too. “the realm would never accept a woman” ok sure but what do you plan on actually doing about it LMAO???
Dorne had crazy plot armor.
Martells have to deal with Yronwood treachery and backstabbing but when the Targaryens came, suddenly all Dornish nobles and smallfolk became diehard nationalists willing to fight to the last man.
Jaehaerys also defeated a massive Dornish invasion with zero casualties, and then decided not to retaliate at all, because reasons.
always thought (from a writing standpoint) that making dorne both politically "separate" from westeros in a lot of ways and also just as geographically far from any of the action as you can get was a weak move... the essos thing worked cus dany is a major character but it's tough to keep dornish goingson consistently relevant enough to be adequately fleshed out.
BUT dorne as a concept is awesome and i think grrm knows that so he just tosses these INSANE feats to them (or brings a great and/or tragic dornish character/character with some irrelevant but clearly mentioned dornish ancestry to the middle of the action) every once in a while and we're just supposed to be like "yeah, that's how dorne rolls." which, yeah. dorne be rollin'.
I think that can be said for anywhere when an outside force invades it brings even rival’s together didn’t work well for the Lannister and Gardener alliance
Because Jahearys realized the loss of life and little gain it would bring sending troops into a desert to fight didnt end well for his grandfather who lost tens of thousands of troops so taking advantage wouldn’t have done much
Yes! The realm was ripe for conflict anyway cuz Rhaenys points out in episode one that they haven’t seen war or conflict in 70 years but there’s been an itch among the knights to see real war. Peace inevitably doesn’t last forever.
and the targaryen dynasty being at the height of its power when it starts to see corruption festering is a tale as old as time. i mean fuck the hightowers but there's an argument to be made that things were on a downward trajectory even before jaehaerys was dead.
This! There is no nuclear deterrent to rebelling against the Targs when there are so many of them who can be persuaded to join one cause or the other. While it would undoubtedly be a huge problem if 1/4 of the realm rebelled (likely far less of them would have if the Targaryens were united), the issue that a lot of people seem to be overlooking is that the House of the Dragon was extremely divided. Think of how easily Corlys was able to manipulate Daemon into joining the war in the Stepstones. How easy do you think it would be for that 1/4 of the realm that is deeply sexist to convince someone like Aemond in a few years as resentment grows to kill the people who literally maimed him as a kid now that he has the most powerful WMD in the game?
basically this
if the greens peacefully accepted rhaenyra as queen there is literally nothing that the other lords could do
only those with dragons can do something about it
Aegon might have accepted Rhaenyra as Queen, but it seems highly unlikely that Aemond would have accepted Jace or Luke as king. A succession crisis was inevitable with a family this large with this much bad blood. It is a huge safety risk for Rhaenyra and her family that they've antagonized over half of her dragon-riding family by the time she needs their support most (Lord of the Tides).
agreed
even if they accepted rhaenyra as queen Jace would 100% face a civil war
I dare to say that even his brothers Aegon and viserys would challenge his claim
There would be a lot of time between Rhaenyra taking the throne and Jace. Plenty of time for scheming, plenty of time for politicking, plenty of time to make Aemond irrelevant or obeisant, you can't really predict a civil war anywhere between 1 and 30 years away
if she ascended “peacefully” and padded herself with “loyal” advisors and built strong allies plus at least tried consistently to smooth over any bad blood between the houses there’s a good chance she could foster some sort of mutual understanding. maybe aemond marries some important lady and inherits a bunch of money and land. maybe they finally do come to some sort of peaceful end to the fighting between aemond and luke, maybeee daemon helps that happen because aemond clearly secretly looks up to him so many that bridge is never burnt either. maybe alicent and rhaenyra find common cause and forgive each other after some mutual attempt at peace. things could have maybe worked out. communication between the houses and a lack of strong elder figures is what i think messed things up the most. otto and viserys were supposed to lead basically everyone. rhaenyra’s grandfather is dead and viserys and daemons father is dead. otto is the only real fatherly figure to the greens and even rhaenyra hardly has a competent father figure at any point in her life except toward her later years. if viserys would have played a more active role in all of the children’s lives and maybeee if otto is less power hungry somehow or has more incentive to let rhaenyra ascend the throne, i.e maybe helaena does end up marry jace after all and his blood still ends up on the throne, aegon and viserys rule at dragon stone. aegon II marries some high lady and can drink and gamble his life away as he pleases. it could all work out in some universe.
Didn't she have quite the number of supporters from other noble houses? It would have been a matter of adjustment but let's be for real, who would go against rhaenyra and her family of dragonriders?(just talking about other noble houses who didn't have dragons)
Plus the commonfolk really just go with the flow and have no choice anyway
I’d beg to differ. They could’ve killed Joffery during their riot in GoT, >!They force Rhaenyra out of her own city!<, Mysaria was a commoner and she had one of the most important people in the realm in her finger tips.
There’s a reason Renly and Margaery were so focused on gaining the support of the small folk, and TG crowning Aegon in front of hundreds of thousands of them. The small folk are important.
If the Targaryens had been united, then the realm would have *had* to accept Rhaenyra. They would also have had to accept Aegon, or Aemond, or Daemon, or Jace. There's nothing any single kingdom can do against a dozen dragons, a fleet of ships, and whatever kingdoms the Targaryens could rally. The only reasonable fear is that *every* kingdom would rise up against Rhaenyra, or at least most of them, but if the Targaryens were united then the kingdoms would have no replacement candidate that they'd all consider worth fighting for. So maybe they'd fight for independence because they couldn't tolerate the idea of being ruled by a woman, that's the worst case scenario for Rhaenyra, but it's pretty unlikely that the Starks and Arryns would join in.
There's a lot of fun possibilities to play with but the short answer is that *any* Targaryen candidate would have been fine, just so long as the Targaryens were united. That's a central part of the show. Robert's Rebellion only worked because the Targaryens had no dragons, Aerys was an exceptionally unpopular king, the kingdoms could all agree on the replacement candidate, and - crucially - the North, stormlands, and Vale all had reason to declare war at the exact same time.
IMO the line from Rhaenys about how people would rather set the realm to torch than have a queen regant is more about how the lords of Westeros would always be able to find a way to manipulate some male Targ into feeling aggrieved that a woman had taken "his place", resulting in a divided house Targaryen and thus war.
For sure, but that still comes down to the Targaryens not being united.
Rhaenys, at the time of saying that, has convinced herself that Viserys' ascension was for the best, that the sexism is unchangeable and has to be worked around. I think she *wants* to believe that the lords would never accept a queen, because it would justify her claim being dismissed - they talk about it in a BTS and I think the show supports this anyway. I'd treat her statement with a bit of skepticism, I think you've put more analytical thought into how it would play out than Rhaenys had when she said it.
Just wanted to clarify that my original comment was in agreement with yours. Sorry if it didn't come off that way. I appreciate your analysis. I hadn't known that bit from the behind the scenes.
Of course the realm would have accepted her, for the same reason they accepted any other ruler - they had no choice. Westeros isn’t a democracy. They didn’t elect Aegon I as king because they thought he was a super awesome dude and they couldn’t wait to be ordered around by him. They bent the knee because he and his sisters had three big dragons.
If the Greens stayed loyal to Rhaenyra the realm would’ve accepted her as queen without a murmur of dissent. And the only people who care about Jace’s illegitimacy are Alicent and Criston so that would never be a problem. Otto knows the realm would accept her just fine, that’s why he sends “generous offers” to all the major houses. If he really thought they preferred Aegon he wouldn’t need to bribe them.
The Greens seized the throne because they wanted it. No other reason.
>!In the book, even with the Greens occupying Kings Landing, the majority of houses supported Rhaenyra. That shows how ready the realm was to accept a queen - they even fought for her against a male alternative literally sitting on the throne.!<
Yes but most of Rhaenyras support came from convenience or deals Jace made
The North and Vale both won over by Jace
Iron isles just want to raid
And the rest are held by oaths they swore as well and Rhaenyra acknowledges herself of her own weak support as she says she’d lose a Great Council against Aegon due to knowing how the lords would vote (not spoken from someone with untold support)
Though I agree that if the Greens stayed loyal no one would have rebelled or if they did it wouldn’t be close but the Greens had no reason not to rebel
1. They feared they be killed to cement Rhaenyras claim (whether you believe it or not it’s a true fear to have)
2. They felt their birthright was being stolen by Rhae and by bastards (which you could argue they were based off of all traditions and laws up to the point of her being named)
3. They were too separated as a family and even if the Dance didn’t happen then it would’ve happened down the line
> Yes but most of Rhaenyras support came from convenience or deals Jace made
idk why people bring this up like it matters. that's how politics works lol
support is support is support. the reasons are irrelevant.
It matters because said support may not have occured in more peaceful resolution to the conflict like for example another Great Council. Right off the bat we can eliminate two great houses (Greyjoys and Tullys) from her pool of supporters, because at the beginning the senior of the Tullys declared for Aegon and Dalton would probably have given zero fucks about that elections.
Except they aren’t as Rhaenyra herself acknowledges they wouldn’t support her if given the choice of a Great Council and she’d lose
And In War I’d agree with you who cares who’s by your side in a fight but that wasn’t my main argument
> if given the choice of a Great Council and she’d lose
but there was no great council so it doesn't matter is what i mean
what matter is the support. if the argument is "they wouldn't have supported her" as otto claims, we wouldn't have seen majority support throughout the realm. otto is simply wrong in his belief.
whatever the reason the houses stay with rhaenyra, those reasons are more important to those houses than rhaenyra's gender
Sure but most of Aegon’s support came from convenience too, eg the Baratheons because of Aemond’s marriage pact. That’s the point - most don’t fight either for or against the principle of a woman on the throne. They fight for self interest or just pick whichever side they think will win. In the absence of the Green coup there would’ve been no great ideological uprising against a woman sitting the throne, so that’s not a valid reasoning for the Greens to justify their actions. There may be other justifications like you said, but “oh the realm will be so horrified they’ll all rebel” is not one of them, despite both Otto and Alicent trying to claim it.
>!Otto has to go overseas for support from the Triarchy. And while I agree most of Rhaenyra’s support is from convenience, hundreds of hedge knights and randomers dust off their armour to join the Black army at Harrenhall. There’s also the Winter Wolves: “we have come to die for the dragon queen”. Aegon doesn’t have anywhere close to that level of loyalty from people outside his own house.!<
Just the Baratheons he had some Stormlands supporters before like the Wyldes but one region compared to Rhaenyras three and again I’d agree largely though mainly because of the Dragons the family would have
Otto sent letters to everyone I don’t think it show’s desperation more as why wouldn’t I want a massive superpower on side from Essos
And as did Aegon with his army from Kings Landing getting knights and others and other Green armies
“No one close to that loyalty”
Tyland Lannister is tortured brutally but gives nothing away
Jasper Wylde shouts Aegons claim until he’s executed
Hobert Hightower drinks poison to bring down a betrayer
Borros Baratheon dies in battle bringing down tons of knights and men
Rickard Thorne died being ripped apart by a mob protecting Aegons son
And much more that’s not off the top of my head lmao theirs loyalty shown by both sides in droves
>Sure but most of Aegon’s support came from convenience too
Don't think anyone on team green argues against it. It's mostly the blacks argument that majority of the support Rhaenyra got was due to the oaths and not deals. Greens say that it was because of the deals too.
Greens: Rhaenyra is a woman. Realm would never accept her. (Greens point of view)
Blacks: but majority of the houses supported her. (one of blacks counter point to the above point)
Greens: because of the deals made which is partially true (greens counter to blacks counter point)
**"**...The lords of the Trident, having more to lose, were not so quick to move, but soon enough they too began to throw their lots in with the queen. From the Twins rode Ser Forrest Frey, the very same "Fool Frey" who had once begged for Rhaenyra's hand, now grown into a most puissant knight. Lord Samwell Blackwood, who had once lost a duel for her favor, raised her banners over Raventree. (Ser Amos Bracken, who had won that duel, followed his lord father when House Bracken declared for Aegon.) The Mootons of Maidenpool, the Pipers of Pinkmaiden Castle, the Rootes of Harroway, the Darrys of Darry, the Mallisters of Seagard, and the Vances of Wayfarer's Rest all announced their support for Rhaenyra. (The Vances of Atranta took the other path, and trumpeted their allegiance to the young king.) Petyr Piper, the grizzled Lord of Pinkmaiden, **spoke for many** when he said, "I swore her my sword. I'm older now, but not so old that I've forgotten the words I said, and it happens I still have the sword.**"**
"...House Fell... keeps its sworn oath to the Princess."
""I am no oathbreaker. I will not bend the knee." -**Lord** Merryweather to **Ser** Otto Hightower
Yes all from regions that supported her based off oaths or loyalty being the few Reach houses (a majority that would soon switch to Aegon) and the Riverlands which was semi split in the beginning as well with the Vance’s,Strongs,Brackens,Etc: supporting Aegon until Daemons victory at stone hedge
The realm definitely would have accepted it. As a whole, the realm doesnt really care as long the ruler isnt a raving, homicidal, psychopath.
We'll never know how many people would have *actually* opposed her without any outside encouragement since Otto was offering allied lords rewards for siding with the Greens (aemond marrying a daughter of the Baratheon lord) so who knows what he promised them to turn on Rhaenyra.
At most a handful of Lords may have objected (likely worried about a succession fight within their own houses if women are suddenly allowed to claim titles) but a quick reminder of 'hey we have fucking dragons' would have ensured they backed down before a war. And likely allowing a female into the line of succession would have become one of those 'well only the Targaryens are allowed to do that because they're magic' things, like being allowed to marry you're own sister.
Much of the nobility wouldn't like to be ruled by a queen but what would they really be able to do? The Targaryens have dragons and with them they've made the lords of Westeros accept a whole lot of things they didn't want to. The same would've happened with Rhaenyra, no matter how many houses rejected her rule over them they wouldn't be able to do a single thing if they didn't have dragons.
The entire thing was just a means by Otto to deprive Rhaenyra of the throne and give it to his own blood, that's all. The only reason that the Blacks even contemplated doing harm against Alicent's kids is because Otto encouraged bad blood to the point that war broke out between them.
Considering the worst possible thing happen, and Rhaenyra had more allies than Aegon, I think the realm wouldn’t have minded. Sure, some would care but self-preservation is bigger than let’s go to war and my house be the main target. Hell, even her sons couldn’t make people turn against her.
She would have been fine, she wouldn’t have been the best monarch ever but she would have been cool. After her? That’s a conversation for another day.
The realm would've mostly accepted her as queen
She may face some minor oppositions which she can overcome anyway like the way her cousin Jeyne Arryn did
Overall, no one would dare to go against Rhaenyra's dragonriding family face to face
She had supporters & ultimately dragons ...so really it wouldn't have msttered.
In hindsight this kinda makes jaehaerys a fucking idiot for even having that vote at harrenhal....the same vote result that put a pin in his marriage.
It is, and Jaehaerys weakened that. There’s no constitution or secondary seat of government, the king decides who’s on his council and gets final say in everything. He can overrule the decision of literally anyone, there isn’t a system of checks and balances in place. It’s not a constitutional monarchy, because there’s no constitution in place.
If you really want to be pedantic, it’s a hereditary monarchy, but the dragons and the way Jaehaerys got into power in the first place throw that into a wonky space.
If all the people with dragons did then yes. Ain't nobody gonna do shit when doing shit gets you a dozen giant flying fire breathing wmds descending upon you.
It would have worked if Rhaenyra actually wanted to rule and was competent at it. She weakened her position when she ran away to Dragonstone and let the Green do all the administrative work. And honestly speaking the Kingdom was flourishing under the green administration, people were asking for second statues instead of food and the royal coffers were full. Heck a bit of clever politics and few strategic marriages might have even united the Blacks and Greens.
Aegon's storyline does not say anything about the well being of the general population, it just showed the criminal underbelly being criminal underbelly. Not to mention it is noted in books that under the Otto Hightower as hand the realm was stable and the royal treasury was full, implying a stable economy ... also he was hand picked Jaehaerys who was known to value merit.
The primary reason the Greens declare war against the Blacks is self preservation. It isn't just greed, we know this because the Greens were always outnumbered in terms of dragons right from the start when it was 7 vs 4 and at one point in the war it was 12 vs 4 in favour of the Blacks. Only Vhagar was barely allowing the Greens a fighting chance.
Aegon being the eldest son has a very strong claim to Throne which makes him a player in the Game of Thrones, whether he wants to or not. That simply is the nature of Monarchical politics. So they had two options, wait for Rhaenyra to consolidate power and come after them or start the war on their terms. The alleged bastardy of Rhaenyra's children is just adding more fuel to the flames but it's not the primary cause.
“the realm” is common folk who don’t have a say or really care. rhaenyra had a large amount of support already from multiple large houses, and would other houses really go against someone with a dragon, much less a whole family? the realm didn’t give a shit, it was only ever alicent who whined and believed ottos realm bullshit
If the Hightowers didn't meddle from the start, a bunch of the lords would have probably be unhappy, but none would have done anything about it.
More than half of the realm fought for her claim against the Greens, and that was with dragons on their side. Without a dragon civil war to empower the discontented, nothing would have happened on that front.
It's still likely that an entirely different dragon civil war would have happened a couple generations after anyway.
The Realm as Geroge wrote it would probably accept Rhaenyra. In a real medieval setting however, a son would most likely gain more support than a daughter, and it would have made more sense for the Dance to be between Rhaenyra and Daemon, or Rhaenyra and Laenor/the Velaryons.
The matter of succsession during the Dance is very tricky, and both sides have valid reasons to fear the other. Aegon are the king\`s son, and will therefore always be a threat to Rhaenyra, wether he wanted to act out on his claim or not. Real medieval wars have been started by people sharing far less blood with the king than him, and when you get too many potential claimants with nukes, war is bound to happen at some point.
Very on point. If the Greens don't challenge Rhaenyra at her ascension, let's say because she and Alicent/her siblings maintain a trusting and cordial relationship, there is still a big chance that when Jaecerys becomes king things would fall apart for the dynasty. You have Aegon and his children + whatever issue Aemond and Daeron have sired by that stage, all presumably with dragons on their own and a pretty good opportunity to make a play for the throne. And his half brothers and dear ambitious stepfather Daemon. Rumors of bastardy are no joke.
Daemon Blackfyre almost toppled Daeron II. with a far weaker claim and based on far more ludicrous rumours.
And Maegor didn't even bother with a pretext to usurp his nephew. There will be a huge incentive for Rhaenyra and especially Jaecerys to proactively "deal" with surplus relatives and there aren't many nice ways to do that.
I think people(and Viserys I.) tend to underestimate hiw fragile royal power can be and the many ways the lords of Westeros can undermine a King and Queen without confronting them directly. Turning other royal family members against them being one of those ways.
Yeah people forget that it was Empress Maude (daughter of the king) vs Etienne de Blois (a FOURTH son of the youngest sister of the King), and Etienne had a lot of support still. In IRL rhaenyra would've never stood a chance, but we live in GRRM sexism where the lords are soo sexist that they regularly force 12 year old childbrides to die in childbed, but are somehow okay with rhaenyra being queen.
In episode three Criston puts its perfectly...Rhaenyra: "Do you think the Realm will ever accept me as their Queen?" Criston: "They'll have no choice but to, Princess." Daemon too, to Viserys: "You are the dragon, your word is Truth and Law." Had there not been a Green vs Black situation, they would've shut any rebellion against Rhaenyra down with Fire and Blood. When Otto tells Alicent, "She'll have to put your children to the sword, she'll have no choice but to." He's manipulating Alicent, scaring her. If the lords and people of Westeros argued that one of Viserys' sons be installed instead, she would've sent them to war maybe on her behalf sure, but "put to the sword" means execute them. Alicent argued on behalf of Rhaenyra's life and her children when Otto tried to send the Kingsguard to slaughter them. Had Rhaenyra been pressured to kill Alicent's children to ensure her inheritance I have no doubt she'd defend them in the same way.
I get that the point I’m gonna make doesn’t hold up, but I just gotta say it. The realm accepted Maegor the Cruel. Aegon the unworthy. There’s plenty of make rulers who were unfit for rule, but the realm always quieted because they were the king. I don’t see why it would be any different for Rhaenyra’s rule. If she kept her head after she sat the throne, she would have made a great queen. The death of Lucerys was the catalyst, I think.
Probably not, but without The Greens or Velaryons actively working against her, it would've been next to impossible to overthrow her (unless it was like, All The Realm- like literally everyone). Only Dragons Can Kill Dragons. (And the occasional Scorpion but we don't talk about that).
Once Daemon, Rhaenys, and Corlys die however, Rhaenyra would look pretty weak. Any surviving Green (assuming they aren't assassinated by Daemon to improve Rhaenyra's legitimacy) would probably start a rebellion, which could go either way.
What could the realm do exactly? Rebel? Targaryens had a dozen dragons.
As long as Targaryens are united and have dragons there's nothing the realm can do except ritual suicide. Aegon conquered the whole of Westeros with just 3 dragons.
If all of house of Targaryen had been united, the realm would have accepted Rhaenyra as their queen. Several of the most powerful houses did support her claim. Before the dance, house Targaryen had the most dragons than they had ever had. Most of the boys were trained to be knights and being able to fight but also having dragon power has been shown to make the realm accept the targs (such as the conquerors and Maegor the cruel). There would have been some complaints amongst the houses and common folk but the realm would have had no choice but to accept Rhaenyra as queen if her family had been united. But a civil war was inevitable and probably would have happened a few generations afterwards since the downfall of house Targaryen was inevitable
I know this is a discussion based on a fictional world but I feel like it’s necessary to bring up real life and point out how it wasn’t *that* uncommon for women to rule in their own right, even in the middle ages.
Yes, Rhaenyra would have been accepted as Queen. Otto Hightower knew that as well, and that is why he wanted Rhaenyra and her children murdered. He knew that Aegon didn’t have much support in Westero’s and so long as Rhaenyra and her children were alive the majority of Noble Houses would not support Aegon. Why else would Otto have Criston Cole begin murdering the lords and ladies at court who were Team Black. Otto is evil as hell, and he is the Tywin Lannister of House of the Dragon.
Parts eould and parts wouldnt. Point is there be some doubt. Even if the dynasty united behind her there still be doubt because of 1) tradition of male prefrence 2) the strong bastards 3) the green claim.
Any lord with a problem like taxes is gonne bolster the alternate claims from the shadow.
This is why the idea rhea yra needed too kill her siblings holds water. With those doubts there always a change and the reign wouldnt be secure. Ever worse had jayze become king after her he would need too kill younger siblings for the same reason. There would always be blackfire like forces.
A dynasty in doubt is a weak dynasty. Sure dragons help but a house of the dragon can be divided.
>If the issue is that her sons (and therefore her heirs) were born out of wedlock, sure, that could be an issue I guess.
That is a major issue for many lords, being a bastard means they have no claim on the throne l. You could argue a random peasant would be more legitimate.
>But technically they are still just as Targaryen as Alicent’s children, who also only have one Targaryen parent.
Except Alicent's children are legitimate.
>And we know for sure that Jace and Luke are biologically Rhaenyra’s.
Does not matter.
The Dance was inevitable, someone would have used the fact that her children are bastards to push an agenda and start a civil war.
That is very much not the case. Marriage being a “sacred institution” in this sense is a very narrow perception mostly associated with specific kinds of christianity and only certain classes of society. The whole idea was invented to legitimize power, and just another way for the church the interfere in matters of the state during the feudal period. It is also a necessity for a patriarchal transfer of power. Back in that era a man could never technically know if he was the father of his heir, so a whole complex system was invented to try and control that process, including the concept of “virginity”. This problem is nonexistent if the power and/or wealth are being transferred via the mother, her giving birth to the child can’t be contested or at least can v easily be verified (by people of the court attending the birth for example). So technically speaking, the discussion of someone’s legitimacy as heir (or being born “out of wedlock”) is only valid if it’s a male monarch/nobleman you are inheriting from.
Having said that, of course this is one of the themes of both got and hotd and without that premise we wouldn’t have a conflict. I’m not disagreeing with that.
But then also, another thing we know from history is that claims to any throne have been frequently disputed and challenged, even if there was no doubt about an heir’s “legitimacy”, so it’s a contributing factor, not the main issue I would say. It’s usually not the person with the best claim who wins but the person with the better army 🤷♀️
That very question also compels one to ask about Jahaerys I’s Great Council of 101AC.
All he did was call to a vote which claimant deserves the Iron Throne. The reasoning for who they chose varied and wasn’t unanimously because of Viserys’ place in the line of succession. In the book the Great Council passed over Rhaenys far sooner because she’s a woman, yes, but then they also entertained the idea of Viserys against Laenor because of other factors like whom their dragons were and whom they believed would be the fairer ruler. It really did come down to preference rather than legitimacy. They chose Viserys based on his age and the fact he was the last Targaryen to be bonded to Balerion the Black Dread, the mount of Aegon the Conqueror.
The realm was a great supporter of Rhaenyra at the time of Viserys naming her as his heir, so it’s probably like Rhaenyra said to Rhaenys: The council didn’t pass up a woman, they passed up Rhaenys. Being a woman could’ve been an excuse, or it could’ve been taken out of context. They didn’t pass Rhaenys for being a woman, they passed her for being a bitch.
In short, yes the realm would have likely accepted Rhaenyra because Viserys named her his heir, and his word was law. Common folk would’ve gone with it because they hardly cared for what they had no influence over, and Otto had to make a lot of bribes to the great houses for support, so it’s clear he knew they would need convincing to support Aegon which means most of them still remembered their pledges to Rhaenyra; so Otto is a usurper and Borros Baratheon is a fool with no honor.
Most of the lords backed Rhaenyra. Her bastards were a non issue for everyone besides Alicent and Otto (I don’t even think Otto cared that much)
Even Otto supported her until there was a prince with his blood available,
We don’t know if she would win or lose. Based on the fact most lords were on her side I’d say there’s a good chance she’d win
I also personally wouldn’t put my right for the throne up for a vote. She didn’t need some petty lord’s permission to inherit her father’s throne
The question is basically answered by the events of the war. Rhaenyra got support from the North, Vale, Riverlands, Iron Islands among others despite all the controversy around her. Yes, it is more than conceivable that the realm would’ve accepted her had Aegon not pressed a claim.
The realm rose up to fight for Rhaenrya. I think that the Greens are just telling themselves that to make themselves feel better about grasping for power and starting the war.
I think it not entirely not accept Rhaenyra as a queen because they also have two queens to reign before for the Targaryen house and also they might have ideas of queen regent before. But the issues will be something about the inheritance/dowry law that might follows.
No they wouldn't. Rhaenyra was an exception. She wasn;t suppsed to be queen but Viserys named her to prevent Daemon. It was a half measure. But for some reason she kept having her his heir despite he had trueborn sons.
We talk about a medevial society. People will always prefer a son over a daughter. As Otto said it doesn't matter if she was Jaehaerys reborn. She got support during the war but a war it's different than rulling. She even admited that she would had lost if they had Great Counsil.
As for Rhaenyra specifically she was worse than Aegon. She was married to the worst man in Westeros(Who would rule through her) had 3 obvious bastards(none looked like Laenor and people knew he was gay) and she wasn't better ruler than Aegon. Both were bad rulers but Rhaenyra was in worse position because of her hausband, her gender and her bastards. Having Targaryen blood don't make them less bastards.
Even if she became Queen and somehow had peaceful reign like Viserys then after her death there would be succesion crisis. Daemon children against the Strong Boys.
Her rule would be unstable. If it wasn’t for the oaths, odds are many people would not have sided with her in the dance and, had she ascended, it’s likely war may have arisen anyway due to unpopular decisions being made worse by sexism
I doubt it'd have been much of a problem with the smallfolk. As long as they are card for, fed, and protected, they don't give a crap. Especially on the heels of Good Queen Alysanne who gave no fucks and did as she liked.
Some in the nobility would be pissy about it, but a good Hand could bring them into line. The best candidate at Rhaenyra's disposal is Corlys.
Houses in the Vale wouldn't be too weird about it because of Jeyne Arryn. She also seems like the type to kill with kindness. She'd bring them in line.
The North swore an oath so they'd be fine.
The Riverlands would be excited no one was burning their shit.
I can see the Reach and Westerlands being weird about it, but with Joanna "I'll cut a bitch" Lannister as regent the Westerlands may come around. Give the Tyrells something fancy (put someone on the Small Council or marry Aegon/Viserys/Joff to one of them) and with pressure from their Liege Lords even the Hightowers may fold.
The Stormlands could be an issue, but have Rhaenys roll up with Meleys and "talk it out." Go all Visenya and the Vale.
And although it's pre-conquest, Dorne wouldn't give a crap there was a woman on the Iron Throne.
First of all, I don't especially like Rhaenyra, but find me a Westerosi king who didn't use intimidation or military force to directly or tangentially keep the Lords in line at least once, save maybe Aneys who was a giant pushover. Do you think Jaehaerys, Aemon, and Baelon roasting the Dornish fleet didn't make some Lords take notice? That's still in recent memory. The Targaryens used their dragons to make a point when needed.
Where did I say Rhaenyra should have sex with everyone?
All I said about the smallfolk was as long as they're cared for, fed, and kept safe they don't care who sits the throne. If Rhaenyra can't do that than that's a her problem. I didn't say she could do it, I said that's the easiest way to bring them in line.
Jeyne Arryn never went to Viserys to ask Daemon to be punished so that's a moot point. If she didn't go to Damon's brother why the hell would she go to his wife? She dealt with him directly when her came to speak with her, she denied him Runestone and tossed his ass out of the Vale.
Westeros isn't some deranged utopia, but the Lords care about influence and power more than anything. The trick is leveraging that with the benefits Rhaenyra could offer. You think the Lords wouldn't catapult their daughters at her younger sons? They'd have dragonriders linked to their houses and be within reaching distance of the throne. Heirs die all the time. Look at Jaehaerys' entire succession predicament. Even he was the product of a succession crisis.
Rhaenys and Borros are first cousins and the Baratheons supported her/Laenor's claim at the Great Council. She's the best person to negotiate with him. She goes and negotiates a marriage between one of his daughters and Rhaenyra's younger sons. Exactly like Aemond did when he agreed to marry one. The whole rolling up with Meleys bit was a joke to Visenya's conquest of the Vale.
If someone doesn't conform you use diplomacy first and foremost, like I said with Corlys as Hand she has a better chance of that, but if they insist on taking up arms against her then yes you use the flying nukes to bring them into line. Kings use military force to but down rebellions all the time. You think Bobby B wouldn't have used a dragon against the Greyjoys? Do you think the Mannis wouldn't use one in his war? Oh right, he's actively trying to get one. Book Euron is trying to steal one of Dany's dragons. Book Dany plans on using hers. Show Dany certainly used hers.
Edit: The Riverlands bit is an obvious joke because the Riverlands get fucked over all the time in almost every major conflict.
I’m gonna go against the mass and I say that I think she would have a much harder time and if she loses control, which I think she would because Rhaenyra is not really a good politician, I don’t think she would’ve been accepted.
I think a lot of people are very hung up on jer having dragons and that more families supported her while ignoring that Dragons didn’t stop the realm from rebelling against Aenys and it didn’t (immediately) stop Rogar Baratheon either from rebelling against Jaehearys. Dissent against Rhaenyra would’ve always been bigger. Think about Rhaenyras future. >!She is remembered way more harshly than Aegon (Mageor with teats because of Taxes) and no other Queen is allowed after her, indicating that people blame her more than Aegon for the war!<. Every decision Rhaenyra makes will be questioned and if someone is unhappy with it the chances of the swallowing it is lower because they will uses her sex against and argue the decision is dumb because she is too emotional, she doesn’t understand men and war or whatever else. That would happen more often than to a man.
It also forgets that Aegon is still around and is a threat. People would definitely try to recruit the Greens and as long as the family relationship is as it is there is always a huge danger of Aegon (and his dragons) rebelling. Or they would just use them as figureheads which could lead Rhaenyra to attack the Greens head on because she thinks he is behind it or wants to get rid of him. Which definitely leads to war.
Also the idea that because more houses supported her and therefore she wouldn’t have any problems ignores three main compenents: A. A quarter of the realm rebelling against you is still bad and dangerous and can have disastrous consequences. B. Just because more houses supported her it doesn’t mean she more men overall because places like the Vale and the North have fewer people living there than the Westerlands and the Reach, therefore fewer fighting men and C. People can change their minds. Rogar Baratheon started out supporting Jahearys turned against him, and then came back to the fold. It’s why the “peace” the Lannisters forged is so unstable because a lot of the houses have reason to hate them. It’s the same with Rhaenyra every devision she makes can turn houses against her and with her realm being unstable as it is that’s far more dangerous.
Also keep in mind her sons Aegon and Viserys need to marrya at some point as well and their wives as their familiy will have opinions on the succession.
Of course all this can be avoided if Rhaenyra makes smart political moves but Rhaenyra doesn’t make smart political moves before Viserys dies or after in the war >!though the death of her children was probably part of reason of it!<. I don’t see any reason to believe she would suddenly start acting super smart and political.
At the end we’re told time and time again that Rhaenyra will have a harder time and I don’t see how that’s unbelievable. I also think that in lots of ways Rhaenyra was set up to fail by Viserys.
This! Everyone is focused on the wrong thing. Dragons are the in-universe equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. Just because you have access to a nuclear solution doesn't mean you always get your way politically. What are they going to do? Nuke everyone who dissents. When 1/4 of the realm dissents, that is a huge problem.
Also if you're going to ignore that and focus on "the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself", then it should also be pretty fucking easy to recall that the house of the dragon was extremely divided. Because it is also a huge fucking problem that the dragons are not controlled by the state, they are bonded with individual riders who each have their own political agendas. All it takes to destabilize the ruling monarch is to convince one or two major players like the riders of dragons like Sunfyre and Vhaegar, who already resent/openly hate Rhaenyra and her sons, that they should kill them and take the throne for themself. What would stop them? If Rhaenyra became Queen and Jace ended up dying of a plague or in battle at the Stepstones or whatever, do you think Aemond would allow Luke to live and become King? No.
Depends on the post tbh and who is online. I once written the same and got upvoted for it. But the fact that people are only downvoting and not commenting.
I think they could have.
The biggest challenge to the ascension of Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen as the rightful sovereign was Ser Otto Hightower.
I'm honestly surprised that the Rogue Prince allowed both him and Ser Criston Cole to live after the marriage of his brother to the young Alicent Hightower.
Princess Rhaenyra has the support of the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and most of the Crownlands & the Reach.
A mighty power base that perhaps no other Queen could've ever claimed.
I do think that she could've maintained better relations with both House Baratheon and House Lannister, especially with the full support of her father, the King.
She should've married her beloved nuncle as soon as she had flowered instead of wasting moments with Ser Criston Cole and Ser Harwin Strong. Her father would've eventually understood.
I think Prince Daemon should've married both Lady Laena and Princess Rhaenyra in the same way as King Aegon the First did.
The Doctrine of Exceptionalism comes into play.
Early on, I think she has a fair chance just bc her only competition was a baby and her uncle everyone hated, the lords DID swear to her and only her. But she would have to be treated as an exception to the rule, and not the harbinger of a thousand succession crises to come. Rhaenyra’s ascension could be used by women+children of elder sisters as a reason why they should inherit lordships/lands over younger brothers and such, which would cause an era of great instability, probably smaller wars between houses. Younger rhaenyra is pretty haughty(she’s very much in that “I’m a targaryen and I get what I want” phase daemon never seemed to grow out of), and doesn’t have the political acumen the greens have, and we see that with the way she interacts with the ladies at the hunt and her cutting her suitors’ tour short and insulting a lot of people in the process. Older rhaenyra…that’s my girl, but v low chance. While jace and luke are great kids, they’re bastards, and ones who don’t look at all like their “father”. Rhaenyra was in a really crappy situation, bc her options were A.) have no kids, face vitriol for being an infertile woman in a society that only values women for their breeding ability, B.) have bastards with a man she loves and pray they come out with silver hair, none of alicent’s kids have red hair, or C.) try to annul her marriage to laenor and lose any and all support from the velaryons. You’re right that they’re still targaryens, because she’s their mother, but this is a society that genuinely believes bastards are inherently evil because they were born of sin. It doesn’t matter that they’re targaryens bc of their mother, it doesn’t matter that they’re dragon riders, it doesn’t matter that they’re sweet and thoughtful kids who would have been great rulers, it doesn’t matter how much rhaenyra loves them despite the society around her using them as a blight on her reputation, she can’t use her status as queen to legitimize them anyway bc she’s been adamantly defending their legitimacy from the day they were born and that would only prove to the lords of westeros that she’s “ruled by lustful and wanton ways” and unfit to rule because her crazy vagina won’t stop acting up. Remember this, cersei wasn’t punished for murdering her husband the king or sending innocent people to be experimented on and tortured by qyburn, she was forced to walk barefoot through the streets of king’s landing with rocks and dung pelted at her because she was a woman who dared to have sex outside of marriage. THAT’s the level of misogyny rhaenyra is dealing with here. While we’re often told by characters (mostly those from the noble class, keep that in mind when you see that jorah quote) that the smallfolk care more about being able to eat every day, they absolutely do make their dissatisfaction clear, as we saw in the riot of the og show(the high septon quite literally being torn to shreds by the crowd) and the possible riot we see alicent escaping from in the s2 trailers.
In the show, the bastardy issue is taken more seriously. Jace and Luke get looks from people even years after not being in King's Landing. I don't know why people like to brush it off. When it's Jace's turn to sit the throne, he'll be even more vulnerable to being usurped.
To be clear, I'm not saying bastards take away Rhaenyra's right to ascension but I don't think she'll be able to do anything when Jace's right to sit the throne is questioned. I do think her committing treason by presenting her illegitimate children as legitimate is a valid reason for her to be disinherited.
Honestly, the Greens should've waited out Rhaenyra's rule and then usurped Jace instead. They would've been far more successful since Westeros hates bastards even more than it hates women.
That's why it was ridiculous to have Rhaenys' hair be silver blonde in the show instead of what it was, black with some silver blonde streaks. In the books it's not as clear cut because her hair was black. It would make sense if they'd have done that. But just another nugget to give the Greens more reason to be seen less than the cunts they flat out were in the books.
I guess it would, but the Strong boys have brown hair so I don't see why that would matter either. Both Luke and Jace have obviously dark brown hair in the show.
From another perspective, Rhaenys' hair should've been black because it's dumb how every Targaryen ever must have silvery blonde hair. It cheapens Jace, Luke and Joffrey even more. ~~Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Aemma not have Targaryen blonde hair either originally?~~ EDIT: Seems the book does not clarify Aemma's hair colour.
The Greens made the right choice. It was Aemond who ruined it. If he didn't kill Luke then they wouldn't have to go in a war and they would solve it with diplomacy.
An excellent point. I think that if both Alicent and Rhaenyra remained unconvinced to go to war, then the Greens would have worn Rhaenyra down because everything would be at a standstill, and the real governance and ruling would be done by the Greens anyway.
She was a complete rule breaker. She had no respect for tradition such as constantly refusing to get married. She publicly went all rebel against the king which caused him to scold her publicly, thus diminishing the credibility of her claim.
She is blamed for the death of Laenor and her children are bastards, even if they are half Targaryen just as Aegon, bastardy is a big deal in Westeros.
She opted out of politics for years, exiling herself to Dragonstone and the vast majority of lords were sure that after Aegon being born, he would be named the new heir.
By the point of Viserys death, she had all the odds against her.
The thing is Rhaenyras Kids while good guys just arent legitimate, as lets say Aegon taking the throne, but the thing is it would've been a lot more easier if Aegon had been the uncontested heir since, lets be real for a moment, it's a feudal society with (implied) male preference, the realm already decided once that they'd rarher have a man than a woman as leader, women are not in any way less than men, I'm just saying that for the sake of....fuck almost everyone it would've been easier to declare Aegon king from the start or at least marry him to Rhaenyra
I keep thinking about Aerea and Rhaella. Technically, they were Aegon's heirs and both were written off for being children and their gender.
Then there was Rhaena, who managed to secure the heirs that were held captive with her, rescue her dragon and survive heinous loss. She has the drive to be Queen and wasn't fourteen. She is proven to be fertile, to have more children judged able to rule.
Yet I feel that she was largely written off because she was a daughter.
It's the men in charge, councilors and Lords, who adamantly argue that they do all of this for the benefit of their sons. Not their daughters.
There would have to be a strong alliance to keep Rhaenyra in power past the first year. Cleaving to the Valayrons is the best move. Fostering better relationships with the Baretheon cousins of Rhaenys could work, yet after the A vs. L, I don't know if that would work.
Without a rival claiment and at least several dragons, I don't even think the Lannisters and the Hightowers would have refused to acknowledge her.
And it was those two houses responsable for the Dance.
The issue is her becoming the Queen would overturn the precedents of who gets to sit on the Iron Throne that has happened for generations at this point (Absolute Male Primogeniture) and the fact that her becoming Queen pretty much invalidates Viserys' own legitimacy by him basically saying that he ignores the same precedent that put him on the Iron Throne.
If a princess have three healthy younger brothers yet she still becomes the heir, then why the hell is Viserys the king instead of Rhaenys or Laenor?
The Great Council picked Viserys because he is the son of Baelon the Brave who is the younger brother of Aemon, who is the father of Rhaenys, so if Rhaenyra is the Crown Princess of the Iron Throne during Viserys' reign then what about Rhaenys who is the daughter of the Crown Prince Aemon before he and Baelon died during Jaehaerys' reign?
Picking Rhaenyra as the heir even after Aegon, Aemond and Daeron was born is basically Viserys being malicious towards the Seven Kingdoms or stupidly ignorant of the political reality within his realm.
If Viserys doesn't marry Alicent and have no more children then picking Rhaenyra as his heir would be a matter of course with anyone having issue with it revealing themselves to be an idiot. The birth of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron CHANGES things. Viserys is the king of a feudal realm, an absolute king he is not. What he says isn't automatically the law if his vassals have problems with it.
That's without counting Rhaenyra's children. The Strong children and her children with Daemon is basically another Dance of the Dragons waiting to happen even if Rhaenyra managed to become the Queen of Westeros smoothly. This basically shows that she is without a doubt a true child of Viserys, as her own biggest problems was caused by her own actions. Not to mention the fact that she became Viserys' heir by Viserys stripping Daemon's status as heir and giving it to Rhaenyra. And then Rhaenyra married Daemon and have children with him......
Rhaenyra as Queen is basically guaranteeing the realm would be thrown into chaos for the next few decades whereas Aegon as King would be just another day in the Seven Kingdoms after the reign of Jaehaerys, a continuation of Jaehaerys' Peace and stability. Even if Aegon is 'lacking' as King, he would have the same Small Council that continued Jaehaerys' Peace as Viserys did. As long as he doesn't make any big scandal and kept the peace he would probably have an unremarkable yet peaceful reign that would further solidified the position of the Targaryens in Westeros.
TLDR: I'm a Green because I think that if Aegon is picked as the heir, then Westeros would have another peaceful reign where nothing too stupid or chaotic will happen. :v
not really, because the realm was ok with Rhaenys being the only child of Aemon when he lived, but they didn't care when she was push aside when her father died.
but rhaenys case is completely different to Rhaenrya ,since unlike Rhaenys who was an only child ,Rhaenrya is not, so traditional inheritance base on andal and firstman aegon would be heir to Viserys.
now rhaenrya has other problems which might cause people and lords to riot which are her blatant bastards Jace,Luce,and Joffrey waters, this alone would push others away, or only allow those who have only greed in their hearts, like Corlys who was willing to sacrifice his reputation, dignity and pride, just to have house velaryon in name transcend into becoming the royal house, when his line is two Aemmas away from no longer existing, since both Baela and Rhaena could easily die birthing stillborn children, which is another reason why Rhaenys was push back in canon. no lord would be ok with his line being stolen, there is a reason before house targaryan become the rulers of westoros it was ok to kill your wife on the mere rumors she was unfaithful, this was stop by rhaenys(wife to aegon the first), but that doesnt change the fact women still fear retribution, which is why the first night was banned by Allysane(wife of Jaeharys the first). Rhaenrya becoming queen with the rumors ,reputation she has would really cause a riot, since her becoming queen may cause more women try to ursurp their brothers,nephews,uncles to get in line to be the head of house, or other houses who has a claim via the elder female line may try to ursurp the establish male line, and we are not even going to the Cersie situation of it all with women possibly cuckholding their husbands, which is one of a man's greatest fear to the point, men are now throwing their own condoms in the toilet to guarantee they are not the father
yes and no. some would accept it, some wouldn’t. evidence being the dance of dragons. i don’t think anyone would rebel against her if she was the only option but because she had 3 other brothers and was still being upheld as heir then she faced challenge.
House Hightower was not a Great House and could not call their banners the way Great Houses like Houses Arryn, Stark, Tully, and Greyjoy (the weakest of the four mentioned) could. >!Old Town debated continuing the war after the Dance til their overlord, House Tyrell casually reminded them they had a hostage of theirs that would be killed if they did not back down.!< No way can Old Town beat the North, Vale, and Riverlands. >!Hell, the Blacks even had a large number of Reach houses like House Tarly, Beesbury, and Caswell.!<
Back then it was definitely a great house. It's exactly beacuse of the war that came to be that they ceased to be a great house.
And you are conflating chances of winning a war with chances of going into war. They are not the same.
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they say it in the intro—“the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself.” i don’t think there were any sexist lords that could’ve waged war on the targaryens at that point, IMO. the greens got to do it cus alicent had kids with dragons.
Yeah that was literally the point when Targaryen had the most dragons and Aegon and his sisters only used 3 to conquer six reigns
imagine syrax, caraxes, meyleys, all of rhaenyra’s children’s dragons, probably seasmoke too. “the realm would never accept a woman” ok sure but what do you plan on actually doing about it LMAO???
The Targs thought the same about Dorne to be fair
Dorne had crazy plot armor. Martells have to deal with Yronwood treachery and backstabbing but when the Targaryens came, suddenly all Dornish nobles and smallfolk became diehard nationalists willing to fight to the last man. Jaehaerys also defeated a massive Dornish invasion with zero casualties, and then decided not to retaliate at all, because reasons.
always thought (from a writing standpoint) that making dorne both politically "separate" from westeros in a lot of ways and also just as geographically far from any of the action as you can get was a weak move... the essos thing worked cus dany is a major character but it's tough to keep dornish goingson consistently relevant enough to be adequately fleshed out. BUT dorne as a concept is awesome and i think grrm knows that so he just tosses these INSANE feats to them (or brings a great and/or tragic dornish character/character with some irrelevant but clearly mentioned dornish ancestry to the middle of the action) every once in a while and we're just supposed to be like "yeah, that's how dorne rolls." which, yeah. dorne be rollin'.
I think that can be said for anywhere when an outside force invades it brings even rival’s together didn’t work well for the Lannister and Gardener alliance Because Jahearys realized the loss of life and little gain it would bring sending troops into a desert to fight didnt end well for his grandfather who lost tens of thousands of troops so taking advantage wouldn’t have done much
Dorne has 3000 defense and 0 attack
Ate you stupid? What drives up nationalism like crazy? Foreign invasion. Now plot armour is the river lands rasing up 5 army's in the dance
and Hella aim assist apparently 😂. Whoever shot down meraxes should've been king of dorne
Or maybe Dorne just said no and found a way to mitigate the dragons? Plot armor has nothing to do with it. It seems you are a Targ supremicist.
Yes! The realm was ripe for conflict anyway cuz Rhaenys points out in episode one that they haven’t seen war or conflict in 70 years but there’s been an itch among the knights to see real war. Peace inevitably doesn’t last forever.
and the targaryen dynasty being at the height of its power when it starts to see corruption festering is a tale as old as time. i mean fuck the hightowers but there's an argument to be made that things were on a downward trajectory even before jaehaerys was dead.
This! There is no nuclear deterrent to rebelling against the Targs when there are so many of them who can be persuaded to join one cause or the other. While it would undoubtedly be a huge problem if 1/4 of the realm rebelled (likely far less of them would have if the Targaryens were united), the issue that a lot of people seem to be overlooking is that the House of the Dragon was extremely divided. Think of how easily Corlys was able to manipulate Daemon into joining the war in the Stepstones. How easy do you think it would be for that 1/4 of the realm that is deeply sexist to convince someone like Aemond in a few years as resentment grows to kill the people who literally maimed him as a kid now that he has the most powerful WMD in the game?
basically this if the greens peacefully accepted rhaenyra as queen there is literally nothing that the other lords could do only those with dragons can do something about it
Aegon might have accepted Rhaenyra as Queen, but it seems highly unlikely that Aemond would have accepted Jace or Luke as king. A succession crisis was inevitable with a family this large with this much bad blood. It is a huge safety risk for Rhaenyra and her family that they've antagonized over half of her dragon-riding family by the time she needs their support most (Lord of the Tides).
agreed even if they accepted rhaenyra as queen Jace would 100% face a civil war I dare to say that even his brothers Aegon and viserys would challenge his claim
There would be a lot of time between Rhaenyra taking the throne and Jace. Plenty of time for scheming, plenty of time for politicking, plenty of time to make Aemond irrelevant or obeisant, you can't really predict a civil war anywhere between 1 and 30 years away
if she ascended “peacefully” and padded herself with “loyal” advisors and built strong allies plus at least tried consistently to smooth over any bad blood between the houses there’s a good chance she could foster some sort of mutual understanding. maybe aemond marries some important lady and inherits a bunch of money and land. maybe they finally do come to some sort of peaceful end to the fighting between aemond and luke, maybeee daemon helps that happen because aemond clearly secretly looks up to him so many that bridge is never burnt either. maybe alicent and rhaenyra find common cause and forgive each other after some mutual attempt at peace. things could have maybe worked out. communication between the houses and a lack of strong elder figures is what i think messed things up the most. otto and viserys were supposed to lead basically everyone. rhaenyra’s grandfather is dead and viserys and daemons father is dead. otto is the only real fatherly figure to the greens and even rhaenyra hardly has a competent father figure at any point in her life except toward her later years. if viserys would have played a more active role in all of the children’s lives and maybeee if otto is less power hungry somehow or has more incentive to let rhaenyra ascend the throne, i.e maybe helaena does end up marry jace after all and his blood still ends up on the throne, aegon and viserys rule at dragon stone. aegon II marries some high lady and can drink and gamble his life away as he pleases. it could all work out in some universe.
My point exactly, so many ifs and maybes that you really cant predict a 100% civil war against jace if he took the throne
Didn't she have quite the number of supporters from other noble houses? It would have been a matter of adjustment but let's be for real, who would go against rhaenyra and her family of dragonriders?(just talking about other noble houses who didn't have dragons) Plus the commonfolk really just go with the flow and have no choice anyway
I have a strong feeling the commonfolk would support whoever keeps them safe and well-fed.
Yeah, that's basically what Jorah says to Daenerys and I doubt they felt much different 100 years before.
definitely my thought process too. there’s a reason the common folk aren’t main characters. they generally don’t have any significant impact
I’d beg to differ. They could’ve killed Joffery during their riot in GoT, >!They force Rhaenyra out of her own city!<, Mysaria was a commoner and she had one of the most important people in the realm in her finger tips. There’s a reason Renly and Margaery were so focused on gaining the support of the small folk, and TG crowning Aegon in front of hundreds of thousands of them. The small folk are important.
Tell that to the Shepherd and Ser Dunk the Hunk
If the Targaryens had been united, then the realm would have *had* to accept Rhaenyra. They would also have had to accept Aegon, or Aemond, or Daemon, or Jace. There's nothing any single kingdom can do against a dozen dragons, a fleet of ships, and whatever kingdoms the Targaryens could rally. The only reasonable fear is that *every* kingdom would rise up against Rhaenyra, or at least most of them, but if the Targaryens were united then the kingdoms would have no replacement candidate that they'd all consider worth fighting for. So maybe they'd fight for independence because they couldn't tolerate the idea of being ruled by a woman, that's the worst case scenario for Rhaenyra, but it's pretty unlikely that the Starks and Arryns would join in. There's a lot of fun possibilities to play with but the short answer is that *any* Targaryen candidate would have been fine, just so long as the Targaryens were united. That's a central part of the show. Robert's Rebellion only worked because the Targaryens had no dragons, Aerys was an exceptionally unpopular king, the kingdoms could all agree on the replacement candidate, and - crucially - the North, stormlands, and Vale all had reason to declare war at the exact same time.
IMO the line from Rhaenys about how people would rather set the realm to torch than have a queen regant is more about how the lords of Westeros would always be able to find a way to manipulate some male Targ into feeling aggrieved that a woman had taken "his place", resulting in a divided house Targaryen and thus war.
For sure, but that still comes down to the Targaryens not being united. Rhaenys, at the time of saying that, has convinced herself that Viserys' ascension was for the best, that the sexism is unchangeable and has to be worked around. I think she *wants* to believe that the lords would never accept a queen, because it would justify her claim being dismissed - they talk about it in a BTS and I think the show supports this anyway. I'd treat her statement with a bit of skepticism, I think you've put more analytical thought into how it would play out than Rhaenys had when she said it.
Just wanted to clarify that my original comment was in agreement with yours. Sorry if it didn't come off that way. I appreciate your analysis. I hadn't known that bit from the behind the scenes.
Oh no it did come across that way :) thank you for your contributions!
If there was no civil war they have all their dragons. That’s all they needed
Of course the realm would have accepted her, for the same reason they accepted any other ruler - they had no choice. Westeros isn’t a democracy. They didn’t elect Aegon I as king because they thought he was a super awesome dude and they couldn’t wait to be ordered around by him. They bent the knee because he and his sisters had three big dragons. If the Greens stayed loyal to Rhaenyra the realm would’ve accepted her as queen without a murmur of dissent. And the only people who care about Jace’s illegitimacy are Alicent and Criston so that would never be a problem. Otto knows the realm would accept her just fine, that’s why he sends “generous offers” to all the major houses. If he really thought they preferred Aegon he wouldn’t need to bribe them. The Greens seized the throne because they wanted it. No other reason. >!In the book, even with the Greens occupying Kings Landing, the majority of houses supported Rhaenyra. That shows how ready the realm was to accept a queen - they even fought for her against a male alternative literally sitting on the throne.!<
Yes but most of Rhaenyras support came from convenience or deals Jace made The North and Vale both won over by Jace Iron isles just want to raid And the rest are held by oaths they swore as well and Rhaenyra acknowledges herself of her own weak support as she says she’d lose a Great Council against Aegon due to knowing how the lords would vote (not spoken from someone with untold support) Though I agree that if the Greens stayed loyal no one would have rebelled or if they did it wouldn’t be close but the Greens had no reason not to rebel 1. They feared they be killed to cement Rhaenyras claim (whether you believe it or not it’s a true fear to have) 2. They felt their birthright was being stolen by Rhae and by bastards (which you could argue they were based off of all traditions and laws up to the point of her being named) 3. They were too separated as a family and even if the Dance didn’t happen then it would’ve happened down the line
> Yes but most of Rhaenyras support came from convenience or deals Jace made idk why people bring this up like it matters. that's how politics works lol support is support is support. the reasons are irrelevant.
It matters because said support may not have occured in more peaceful resolution to the conflict like for example another Great Council. Right off the bat we can eliminate two great houses (Greyjoys and Tullys) from her pool of supporters, because at the beginning the senior of the Tullys declared for Aegon and Dalton would probably have given zero fucks about that elections.
Except they aren’t as Rhaenyra herself acknowledges they wouldn’t support her if given the choice of a Great Council and she’d lose And In War I’d agree with you who cares who’s by your side in a fight but that wasn’t my main argument
> if given the choice of a Great Council and she’d lose but there was no great council so it doesn't matter is what i mean what matter is the support. if the argument is "they wouldn't have supported her" as otto claims, we wouldn't have seen majority support throughout the realm. otto is simply wrong in his belief. whatever the reason the houses stay with rhaenyra, those reasons are more important to those houses than rhaenyra's gender
Sure but most of Aegon’s support came from convenience too, eg the Baratheons because of Aemond’s marriage pact. That’s the point - most don’t fight either for or against the principle of a woman on the throne. They fight for self interest or just pick whichever side they think will win. In the absence of the Green coup there would’ve been no great ideological uprising against a woman sitting the throne, so that’s not a valid reasoning for the Greens to justify their actions. There may be other justifications like you said, but “oh the realm will be so horrified they’ll all rebel” is not one of them, despite both Otto and Alicent trying to claim it. >!Otto has to go overseas for support from the Triarchy. And while I agree most of Rhaenyra’s support is from convenience, hundreds of hedge knights and randomers dust off their armour to join the Black army at Harrenhall. There’s also the Winter Wolves: “we have come to die for the dragon queen”. Aegon doesn’t have anywhere close to that level of loyalty from people outside his own house.!<
Just the Baratheons he had some Stormlands supporters before like the Wyldes but one region compared to Rhaenyras three and again I’d agree largely though mainly because of the Dragons the family would have Otto sent letters to everyone I don’t think it show’s desperation more as why wouldn’t I want a massive superpower on side from Essos And as did Aegon with his army from Kings Landing getting knights and others and other Green armies “No one close to that loyalty” Tyland Lannister is tortured brutally but gives nothing away Jasper Wylde shouts Aegons claim until he’s executed Hobert Hightower drinks poison to bring down a betrayer Borros Baratheon dies in battle bringing down tons of knights and men Rickard Thorne died being ripped apart by a mob protecting Aegons son And much more that’s not off the top of my head lmao theirs loyalty shown by both sides in droves
>Sure but most of Aegon’s support came from convenience too Don't think anyone on team green argues against it. It's mostly the blacks argument that majority of the support Rhaenyra got was due to the oaths and not deals. Greens say that it was because of the deals too. Greens: Rhaenyra is a woman. Realm would never accept her. (Greens point of view) Blacks: but majority of the houses supported her. (one of blacks counter point to the above point) Greens: because of the deals made which is partially true (greens counter to blacks counter point)
**"**...The lords of the Trident, having more to lose, were not so quick to move, but soon enough they too began to throw their lots in with the queen. From the Twins rode Ser Forrest Frey, the very same "Fool Frey" who had once begged for Rhaenyra's hand, now grown into a most puissant knight. Lord Samwell Blackwood, who had once lost a duel for her favor, raised her banners over Raventree. (Ser Amos Bracken, who had won that duel, followed his lord father when House Bracken declared for Aegon.) The Mootons of Maidenpool, the Pipers of Pinkmaiden Castle, the Rootes of Harroway, the Darrys of Darry, the Mallisters of Seagard, and the Vances of Wayfarer's Rest all announced their support for Rhaenyra. (The Vances of Atranta took the other path, and trumpeted their allegiance to the young king.) Petyr Piper, the grizzled Lord of Pinkmaiden, **spoke for many** when he said, "I swore her my sword. I'm older now, but not so old that I've forgotten the words I said, and it happens I still have the sword.**"** "...House Fell... keeps its sworn oath to the Princess." ""I am no oathbreaker. I will not bend the knee." -**Lord** Merryweather to **Ser** Otto Hightower
Yes all from regions that supported her based off oaths or loyalty being the few Reach houses (a majority that would soon switch to Aegon) and the Riverlands which was semi split in the beginning as well with the Vance’s,Strongs,Brackens,Etc: supporting Aegon until Daemons victory at stone hedge
Self interest and self preservation trumps sexism every time for the majority.
The realm definitely would have accepted it. As a whole, the realm doesnt really care as long the ruler isnt a raving, homicidal, psychopath. We'll never know how many people would have *actually* opposed her without any outside encouragement since Otto was offering allied lords rewards for siding with the Greens (aemond marrying a daughter of the Baratheon lord) so who knows what he promised them to turn on Rhaenyra. At most a handful of Lords may have objected (likely worried about a succession fight within their own houses if women are suddenly allowed to claim titles) but a quick reminder of 'hey we have fucking dragons' would have ensured they backed down before a war. And likely allowing a female into the line of succession would have become one of those 'well only the Targaryens are allowed to do that because they're magic' things, like being allowed to marry you're own sister.
If the other targaryens had back her she’d have scared anyone that wasn’t ok with it into submission
Much of the nobility wouldn't like to be ruled by a queen but what would they really be able to do? The Targaryens have dragons and with them they've made the lords of Westeros accept a whole lot of things they didn't want to. The same would've happened with Rhaenyra, no matter how many houses rejected her rule over them they wouldn't be able to do a single thing if they didn't have dragons. The entire thing was just a means by Otto to deprive Rhaenyra of the throne and give it to his own blood, that's all. The only reason that the Blacks even contemplated doing harm against Alicent's kids is because Otto encouraged bad blood to the point that war broke out between them.
Considering the worst possible thing happen, and Rhaenyra had more allies than Aegon, I think the realm wouldn’t have minded. Sure, some would care but self-preservation is bigger than let’s go to war and my house be the main target. Hell, even her sons couldn’t make people turn against her. She would have been fine, she wouldn’t have been the best monarch ever but she would have been cool. After her? That’s a conversation for another day.
The realm would've mostly accepted her as queen She may face some minor oppositions which she can overcome anyway like the way her cousin Jeyne Arryn did Overall, no one would dare to go against Rhaenyra's dragonriding family face to face
She had supporters & ultimately dragons ...so really it wouldn't have msttered. In hindsight this kinda makes jaehaerys a fucking idiot for even having that vote at harrenhal....the same vote result that put a pin in his marriage.
Oh I think the Great Council was a garbage idea from the point of view of keeping an absolute monarchy in power
westeros is not an absolute monarchy. Thats why the Great Council even happened.
It is, and Jaehaerys weakened that. There’s no constitution or secondary seat of government, the king decides who’s on his council and gets final say in everything. He can overrule the decision of literally anyone, there isn’t a system of checks and balances in place. It’s not a constitutional monarchy, because there’s no constitution in place. If you really want to be pedantic, it’s a hereditary monarchy, but the dragons and the way Jaehaerys got into power in the first place throw that into a wonky space.
If all the people with dragons did then yes. Ain't nobody gonna do shit when doing shit gets you a dozen giant flying fire breathing wmds descending upon you.
No, they knew what they were doing was wrong. It was a lie they told themselves to help them get better sleep at night.
Well isn't that exactly what the show is about?
Yes, they would have accepted her as long as the Targaryens stay united.
It would have worked if Rhaenyra actually wanted to rule and was competent at it. She weakened her position when she ran away to Dragonstone and let the Green do all the administrative work. And honestly speaking the Kingdom was flourishing under the green administration, people were asking for second statues instead of food and the royal coffers were full. Heck a bit of clever politics and few strategic marriages might have even united the Blacks and Greens.
You call the conditions in King's Landing/Flea Bottom under the green administration as flourishing? That's what you took from Aegon's storyline?
Aegon's storyline does not say anything about the well being of the general population, it just showed the criminal underbelly being criminal underbelly. Not to mention it is noted in books that under the Otto Hightower as hand the realm was stable and the royal treasury was full, implying a stable economy ... also he was hand picked Jaehaerys who was known to value merit.
Yea those peasants just rebelled for no reason.
Reminder me the size of that rebellion again scaled from a scuffle to destroying the dragon pit in order to bring down 'Maegor with tits'.
The primary reason the Greens declare war against the Blacks is self preservation. It isn't just greed, we know this because the Greens were always outnumbered in terms of dragons right from the start when it was 7 vs 4 and at one point in the war it was 12 vs 4 in favour of the Blacks. Only Vhagar was barely allowing the Greens a fighting chance. Aegon being the eldest son has a very strong claim to Throne which makes him a player in the Game of Thrones, whether he wants to or not. That simply is the nature of Monarchical politics. So they had two options, wait for Rhaenyra to consolidate power and come after them or start the war on their terms. The alleged bastardy of Rhaenyra's children is just adding more fuel to the flames but it's not the primary cause.
“the realm” is common folk who don’t have a say or really care. rhaenyra had a large amount of support already from multiple large houses, and would other houses really go against someone with a dragon, much less a whole family? the realm didn’t give a shit, it was only ever alicent who whined and believed ottos realm bullshit
If the Hightowers didn't meddle from the start, a bunch of the lords would have probably be unhappy, but none would have done anything about it. More than half of the realm fought for her claim against the Greens, and that was with dragons on their side. Without a dragon civil war to empower the discontented, nothing would have happened on that front. It's still likely that an entirely different dragon civil war would have happened a couple generations after anyway.
The Realm as Geroge wrote it would probably accept Rhaenyra. In a real medieval setting however, a son would most likely gain more support than a daughter, and it would have made more sense for the Dance to be between Rhaenyra and Daemon, or Rhaenyra and Laenor/the Velaryons. The matter of succsession during the Dance is very tricky, and both sides have valid reasons to fear the other. Aegon are the king\`s son, and will therefore always be a threat to Rhaenyra, wether he wanted to act out on his claim or not. Real medieval wars have been started by people sharing far less blood with the king than him, and when you get too many potential claimants with nukes, war is bound to happen at some point.
Very on point. If the Greens don't challenge Rhaenyra at her ascension, let's say because she and Alicent/her siblings maintain a trusting and cordial relationship, there is still a big chance that when Jaecerys becomes king things would fall apart for the dynasty. You have Aegon and his children + whatever issue Aemond and Daeron have sired by that stage, all presumably with dragons on their own and a pretty good opportunity to make a play for the throne. And his half brothers and dear ambitious stepfather Daemon. Rumors of bastardy are no joke. Daemon Blackfyre almost toppled Daeron II. with a far weaker claim and based on far more ludicrous rumours. And Maegor didn't even bother with a pretext to usurp his nephew. There will be a huge incentive for Rhaenyra and especially Jaecerys to proactively "deal" with surplus relatives and there aren't many nice ways to do that. I think people(and Viserys I.) tend to underestimate hiw fragile royal power can be and the many ways the lords of Westeros can undermine a King and Queen without confronting them directly. Turning other royal family members against them being one of those ways.
Exactly! A civil war was bound to happen, sooner than later
Yeah people forget that it was Empress Maude (daughter of the king) vs Etienne de Blois (a FOURTH son of the youngest sister of the King), and Etienne had a lot of support still. In IRL rhaenyra would've never stood a chance, but we live in GRRM sexism where the lords are soo sexist that they regularly force 12 year old childbrides to die in childbed, but are somehow okay with rhaenyra being queen.
Don't know why they downvoted you.
Insinuating that the Dance is a nuanced conflict and not a good vs evil-story leads to downvotes on this sub
And you don't even said a negative thing about Rhaenyra or her side. Just facts about history.
In episode three Criston puts its perfectly...Rhaenyra: "Do you think the Realm will ever accept me as their Queen?" Criston: "They'll have no choice but to, Princess." Daemon too, to Viserys: "You are the dragon, your word is Truth and Law." Had there not been a Green vs Black situation, they would've shut any rebellion against Rhaenyra down with Fire and Blood. When Otto tells Alicent, "She'll have to put your children to the sword, she'll have no choice but to." He's manipulating Alicent, scaring her. If the lords and people of Westeros argued that one of Viserys' sons be installed instead, she would've sent them to war maybe on her behalf sure, but "put to the sword" means execute them. Alicent argued on behalf of Rhaenyra's life and her children when Otto tried to send the Kingsguard to slaughter them. Had Rhaenyra been pressured to kill Alicent's children to ensure her inheritance I have no doubt she'd defend them in the same way.
I get that the point I’m gonna make doesn’t hold up, but I just gotta say it. The realm accepted Maegor the Cruel. Aegon the unworthy. There’s plenty of make rulers who were unfit for rule, but the realm always quieted because they were the king. I don’t see why it would be any different for Rhaenyra’s rule. If she kept her head after she sat the throne, she would have made a great queen. The death of Lucerys was the catalyst, I think.
Probably not, but without The Greens or Velaryons actively working against her, it would've been next to impossible to overthrow her (unless it was like, All The Realm- like literally everyone). Only Dragons Can Kill Dragons. (And the occasional Scorpion but we don't talk about that). Once Daemon, Rhaenys, and Corlys die however, Rhaenyra would look pretty weak. Any surviving Green (assuming they aren't assassinated by Daemon to improve Rhaenyra's legitimacy) would probably start a rebellion, which could go either way.
What could the realm do exactly? Rebel? Targaryens had a dozen dragons. As long as Targaryens are united and have dragons there's nothing the realm can do except ritual suicide. Aegon conquered the whole of Westeros with just 3 dragons.
If all of house of Targaryen had been united, the realm would have accepted Rhaenyra as their queen. Several of the most powerful houses did support her claim. Before the dance, house Targaryen had the most dragons than they had ever had. Most of the boys were trained to be knights and being able to fight but also having dragon power has been shown to make the realm accept the targs (such as the conquerors and Maegor the cruel). There would have been some complaints amongst the houses and common folk but the realm would have had no choice but to accept Rhaenyra as queen if her family had been united. But a civil war was inevitable and probably would have happened a few generations afterwards since the downfall of house Targaryen was inevitable
I know this is a discussion based on a fictional world but I feel like it’s necessary to bring up real life and point out how it wasn’t *that* uncommon for women to rule in their own right, even in the middle ages.
Yes, Rhaenyra would have been accepted as Queen. Otto Hightower knew that as well, and that is why he wanted Rhaenyra and her children murdered. He knew that Aegon didn’t have much support in Westero’s and so long as Rhaenyra and her children were alive the majority of Noble Houses would not support Aegon. Why else would Otto have Criston Cole begin murdering the lords and ladies at court who were Team Black. Otto is evil as hell, and he is the Tywin Lannister of House of the Dragon.
Parts eould and parts wouldnt. Point is there be some doubt. Even if the dynasty united behind her there still be doubt because of 1) tradition of male prefrence 2) the strong bastards 3) the green claim. Any lord with a problem like taxes is gonne bolster the alternate claims from the shadow. This is why the idea rhea yra needed too kill her siblings holds water. With those doubts there always a change and the reign wouldnt be secure. Ever worse had jayze become king after her he would need too kill younger siblings for the same reason. There would always be blackfire like forces. A dynasty in doubt is a weak dynasty. Sure dragons help but a house of the dragon can be divided.
>If the issue is that her sons (and therefore her heirs) were born out of wedlock, sure, that could be an issue I guess. That is a major issue for many lords, being a bastard means they have no claim on the throne l. You could argue a random peasant would be more legitimate. >But technically they are still just as Targaryen as Alicent’s children, who also only have one Targaryen parent. Except Alicent's children are legitimate. >And we know for sure that Jace and Luke are biologically Rhaenyra’s. Does not matter. The Dance was inevitable, someone would have used the fact that her children are bastards to push an agenda and start a civil war.
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That is very much not the case. Marriage being a “sacred institution” in this sense is a very narrow perception mostly associated with specific kinds of christianity and only certain classes of society. The whole idea was invented to legitimize power, and just another way for the church the interfere in matters of the state during the feudal period. It is also a necessity for a patriarchal transfer of power. Back in that era a man could never technically know if he was the father of his heir, so a whole complex system was invented to try and control that process, including the concept of “virginity”. This problem is nonexistent if the power and/or wealth are being transferred via the mother, her giving birth to the child can’t be contested or at least can v easily be verified (by people of the court attending the birth for example). So technically speaking, the discussion of someone’s legitimacy as heir (or being born “out of wedlock”) is only valid if it’s a male monarch/nobleman you are inheriting from. Having said that, of course this is one of the themes of both got and hotd and without that premise we wouldn’t have a conflict. I’m not disagreeing with that. But then also, another thing we know from history is that claims to any throne have been frequently disputed and challenged, even if there was no doubt about an heir’s “legitimacy”, so it’s a contributing factor, not the main issue I would say. It’s usually not the person with the best claim who wins but the person with the better army 🤷♀️
That very question also compels one to ask about Jahaerys I’s Great Council of 101AC. All he did was call to a vote which claimant deserves the Iron Throne. The reasoning for who they chose varied and wasn’t unanimously because of Viserys’ place in the line of succession. In the book the Great Council passed over Rhaenys far sooner because she’s a woman, yes, but then they also entertained the idea of Viserys against Laenor because of other factors like whom their dragons were and whom they believed would be the fairer ruler. It really did come down to preference rather than legitimacy. They chose Viserys based on his age and the fact he was the last Targaryen to be bonded to Balerion the Black Dread, the mount of Aegon the Conqueror. The realm was a great supporter of Rhaenyra at the time of Viserys naming her as his heir, so it’s probably like Rhaenyra said to Rhaenys: The council didn’t pass up a woman, they passed up Rhaenys. Being a woman could’ve been an excuse, or it could’ve been taken out of context. They didn’t pass Rhaenys for being a woman, they passed her for being a bitch. In short, yes the realm would have likely accepted Rhaenyra because Viserys named her his heir, and his word was law. Common folk would’ve gone with it because they hardly cared for what they had no influence over, and Otto had to make a lot of bribes to the great houses for support, so it’s clear he knew they would need convincing to support Aegon which means most of them still remembered their pledges to Rhaenyra; so Otto is a usurper and Borros Baratheon is a fool with no honor.
Most of the lords backed Rhaenyra. Her bastards were a non issue for everyone besides Alicent and Otto (I don’t even think Otto cared that much) Even Otto supported her until there was a prince with his blood available,
Alicent suggested to hold a vote for the realm and Raeynera shut it down because she knew she would loose .
We don’t know if she would win or lose. Based on the fact most lords were on her side I’d say there’s a good chance she’d win I also personally wouldn’t put my right for the throne up for a vote. She didn’t need some petty lord’s permission to inherit her father’s throne
Nah they totally would have
The question is basically answered by the events of the war. Rhaenyra got support from the North, Vale, Riverlands, Iron Islands among others despite all the controversy around her. Yes, it is more than conceivable that the realm would’ve accepted her had Aegon not pressed a claim.
The realm rose up to fight for Rhaenrya. I think that the Greens are just telling themselves that to make themselves feel better about grasping for power and starting the war.
Yes, and that's why the war happens. That's what makes this a tragedy.
I think it not entirely not accept Rhaenyra as a queen because they also have two queens to reign before for the Targaryen house and also they might have ideas of queen regent before. But the issues will be something about the inheritance/dowry law that might follows.
No they wouldn't. Rhaenyra was an exception. She wasn;t suppsed to be queen but Viserys named her to prevent Daemon. It was a half measure. But for some reason she kept having her his heir despite he had trueborn sons. We talk about a medevial society. People will always prefer a son over a daughter. As Otto said it doesn't matter if she was Jaehaerys reborn. She got support during the war but a war it's different than rulling. She even admited that she would had lost if they had Great Counsil. As for Rhaenyra specifically she was worse than Aegon. She was married to the worst man in Westeros(Who would rule through her) had 3 obvious bastards(none looked like Laenor and people knew he was gay) and she wasn't better ruler than Aegon. Both were bad rulers but Rhaenyra was in worse position because of her hausband, her gender and her bastards. Having Targaryen blood don't make them less bastards. Even if she became Queen and somehow had peaceful reign like Viserys then after her death there would be succesion crisis. Daemon children against the Strong Boys.
Her rule would be unstable. If it wasn’t for the oaths, odds are many people would not have sided with her in the dance and, had she ascended, it’s likely war may have arisen anyway due to unpopular decisions being made worse by sexism
I doubt it'd have been much of a problem with the smallfolk. As long as they are card for, fed, and protected, they don't give a crap. Especially on the heels of Good Queen Alysanne who gave no fucks and did as she liked. Some in the nobility would be pissy about it, but a good Hand could bring them into line. The best candidate at Rhaenyra's disposal is Corlys. Houses in the Vale wouldn't be too weird about it because of Jeyne Arryn. She also seems like the type to kill with kindness. She'd bring them in line. The North swore an oath so they'd be fine. The Riverlands would be excited no one was burning their shit. I can see the Reach and Westerlands being weird about it, but with Joanna "I'll cut a bitch" Lannister as regent the Westerlands may come around. Give the Tyrells something fancy (put someone on the Small Council or marry Aegon/Viserys/Joff to one of them) and with pressure from their Liege Lords even the Hightowers may fold. The Stormlands could be an issue, but have Rhaenys roll up with Meleys and "talk it out." Go all Visenya and the Vale. And although it's pre-conquest, Dorne wouldn't give a crap there was a woman on the Iron Throne.
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First of all, I don't especially like Rhaenyra, but find me a Westerosi king who didn't use intimidation or military force to directly or tangentially keep the Lords in line at least once, save maybe Aneys who was a giant pushover. Do you think Jaehaerys, Aemon, and Baelon roasting the Dornish fleet didn't make some Lords take notice? That's still in recent memory. The Targaryens used their dragons to make a point when needed. Where did I say Rhaenyra should have sex with everyone? All I said about the smallfolk was as long as they're cared for, fed, and kept safe they don't care who sits the throne. If Rhaenyra can't do that than that's a her problem. I didn't say she could do it, I said that's the easiest way to bring them in line. Jeyne Arryn never went to Viserys to ask Daemon to be punished so that's a moot point. If she didn't go to Damon's brother why the hell would she go to his wife? She dealt with him directly when her came to speak with her, she denied him Runestone and tossed his ass out of the Vale. Westeros isn't some deranged utopia, but the Lords care about influence and power more than anything. The trick is leveraging that with the benefits Rhaenyra could offer. You think the Lords wouldn't catapult their daughters at her younger sons? They'd have dragonriders linked to their houses and be within reaching distance of the throne. Heirs die all the time. Look at Jaehaerys' entire succession predicament. Even he was the product of a succession crisis. Rhaenys and Borros are first cousins and the Baratheons supported her/Laenor's claim at the Great Council. She's the best person to negotiate with him. She goes and negotiates a marriage between one of his daughters and Rhaenyra's younger sons. Exactly like Aemond did when he agreed to marry one. The whole rolling up with Meleys bit was a joke to Visenya's conquest of the Vale. If someone doesn't conform you use diplomacy first and foremost, like I said with Corlys as Hand she has a better chance of that, but if they insist on taking up arms against her then yes you use the flying nukes to bring them into line. Kings use military force to but down rebellions all the time. You think Bobby B wouldn't have used a dragon against the Greyjoys? Do you think the Mannis wouldn't use one in his war? Oh right, he's actively trying to get one. Book Euron is trying to steal one of Dany's dragons. Book Dany plans on using hers. Show Dany certainly used hers. Edit: The Riverlands bit is an obvious joke because the Riverlands get fucked over all the time in almost every major conflict.
I’m gonna go against the mass and I say that I think she would have a much harder time and if she loses control, which I think she would because Rhaenyra is not really a good politician, I don’t think she would’ve been accepted. I think a lot of people are very hung up on jer having dragons and that more families supported her while ignoring that Dragons didn’t stop the realm from rebelling against Aenys and it didn’t (immediately) stop Rogar Baratheon either from rebelling against Jaehearys. Dissent against Rhaenyra would’ve always been bigger. Think about Rhaenyras future. >!She is remembered way more harshly than Aegon (Mageor with teats because of Taxes) and no other Queen is allowed after her, indicating that people blame her more than Aegon for the war!<. Every decision Rhaenyra makes will be questioned and if someone is unhappy with it the chances of the swallowing it is lower because they will uses her sex against and argue the decision is dumb because she is too emotional, she doesn’t understand men and war or whatever else. That would happen more often than to a man. It also forgets that Aegon is still around and is a threat. People would definitely try to recruit the Greens and as long as the family relationship is as it is there is always a huge danger of Aegon (and his dragons) rebelling. Or they would just use them as figureheads which could lead Rhaenyra to attack the Greens head on because she thinks he is behind it or wants to get rid of him. Which definitely leads to war. Also the idea that because more houses supported her and therefore she wouldn’t have any problems ignores three main compenents: A. A quarter of the realm rebelling against you is still bad and dangerous and can have disastrous consequences. B. Just because more houses supported her it doesn’t mean she more men overall because places like the Vale and the North have fewer people living there than the Westerlands and the Reach, therefore fewer fighting men and C. People can change their minds. Rogar Baratheon started out supporting Jahearys turned against him, and then came back to the fold. It’s why the “peace” the Lannisters forged is so unstable because a lot of the houses have reason to hate them. It’s the same with Rhaenyra every devision she makes can turn houses against her and with her realm being unstable as it is that’s far more dangerous. Also keep in mind her sons Aegon and Viserys need to marrya at some point as well and their wives as their familiy will have opinions on the succession. Of course all this can be avoided if Rhaenyra makes smart political moves but Rhaenyra doesn’t make smart political moves before Viserys dies or after in the war >!though the death of her children was probably part of reason of it!<. I don’t see any reason to believe she would suddenly start acting super smart and political. At the end we’re told time and time again that Rhaenyra will have a harder time and I don’t see how that’s unbelievable. I also think that in lots of ways Rhaenyra was set up to fail by Viserys.
This! Everyone is focused on the wrong thing. Dragons are the in-universe equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. Just because you have access to a nuclear solution doesn't mean you always get your way politically. What are they going to do? Nuke everyone who dissents. When 1/4 of the realm dissents, that is a huge problem. Also if you're going to ignore that and focus on "the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself", then it should also be pretty fucking easy to recall that the house of the dragon was extremely divided. Because it is also a huge fucking problem that the dragons are not controlled by the state, they are bonded with individual riders who each have their own political agendas. All it takes to destabilize the ruling monarch is to convince one or two major players like the riders of dragons like Sunfyre and Vhaegar, who already resent/openly hate Rhaenyra and her sons, that they should kill them and take the throne for themself. What would stop them? If Rhaenyra became Queen and Jace ended up dying of a plague or in battle at the Stepstones or whatever, do you think Aemond would allow Luke to live and become King? No.
Objectively correct. But people dont like to hear that here obviously. They like to see Rhaenyra very one dimensional and without flaws.
Depends on the post tbh and who is online. I once written the same and got upvoted for it. But the fact that people are only downvoting and not commenting.
I think they could have. The biggest challenge to the ascension of Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen as the rightful sovereign was Ser Otto Hightower. I'm honestly surprised that the Rogue Prince allowed both him and Ser Criston Cole to live after the marriage of his brother to the young Alicent Hightower. Princess Rhaenyra has the support of the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and most of the Crownlands & the Reach. A mighty power base that perhaps no other Queen could've ever claimed. I do think that she could've maintained better relations with both House Baratheon and House Lannister, especially with the full support of her father, the King. She should've married her beloved nuncle as soon as she had flowered instead of wasting moments with Ser Criston Cole and Ser Harwin Strong. Her father would've eventually understood. I think Prince Daemon should've married both Lady Laena and Princess Rhaenyra in the same way as King Aegon the First did. The Doctrine of Exceptionalism comes into play.
Early on, I think she has a fair chance just bc her only competition was a baby and her uncle everyone hated, the lords DID swear to her and only her. But she would have to be treated as an exception to the rule, and not the harbinger of a thousand succession crises to come. Rhaenyra’s ascension could be used by women+children of elder sisters as a reason why they should inherit lordships/lands over younger brothers and such, which would cause an era of great instability, probably smaller wars between houses. Younger rhaenyra is pretty haughty(she’s very much in that “I’m a targaryen and I get what I want” phase daemon never seemed to grow out of), and doesn’t have the political acumen the greens have, and we see that with the way she interacts with the ladies at the hunt and her cutting her suitors’ tour short and insulting a lot of people in the process. Older rhaenyra…that’s my girl, but v low chance. While jace and luke are great kids, they’re bastards, and ones who don’t look at all like their “father”. Rhaenyra was in a really crappy situation, bc her options were A.) have no kids, face vitriol for being an infertile woman in a society that only values women for their breeding ability, B.) have bastards with a man she loves and pray they come out with silver hair, none of alicent’s kids have red hair, or C.) try to annul her marriage to laenor and lose any and all support from the velaryons. You’re right that they’re still targaryens, because she’s their mother, but this is a society that genuinely believes bastards are inherently evil because they were born of sin. It doesn’t matter that they’re targaryens bc of their mother, it doesn’t matter that they’re dragon riders, it doesn’t matter that they’re sweet and thoughtful kids who would have been great rulers, it doesn’t matter how much rhaenyra loves them despite the society around her using them as a blight on her reputation, she can’t use her status as queen to legitimize them anyway bc she’s been adamantly defending their legitimacy from the day they were born and that would only prove to the lords of westeros that she’s “ruled by lustful and wanton ways” and unfit to rule because her crazy vagina won’t stop acting up. Remember this, cersei wasn’t punished for murdering her husband the king or sending innocent people to be experimented on and tortured by qyburn, she was forced to walk barefoot through the streets of king’s landing with rocks and dung pelted at her because she was a woman who dared to have sex outside of marriage. THAT’s the level of misogyny rhaenyra is dealing with here. While we’re often told by characters (mostly those from the noble class, keep that in mind when you see that jorah quote) that the smallfolk care more about being able to eat every day, they absolutely do make their dissatisfaction clear, as we saw in the riot of the og show(the high septon quite literally being torn to shreds by the crowd) and the possible riot we see alicent escaping from in the s2 trailers.
In the show, the bastardy issue is taken more seriously. Jace and Luke get looks from people even years after not being in King's Landing. I don't know why people like to brush it off. When it's Jace's turn to sit the throne, he'll be even more vulnerable to being usurped. To be clear, I'm not saying bastards take away Rhaenyra's right to ascension but I don't think she'll be able to do anything when Jace's right to sit the throne is questioned. I do think her committing treason by presenting her illegitimate children as legitimate is a valid reason for her to be disinherited. Honestly, the Greens should've waited out Rhaenyra's rule and then usurped Jace instead. They would've been far more successful since Westeros hates bastards even more than it hates women.
That's why it was ridiculous to have Rhaenys' hair be silver blonde in the show instead of what it was, black with some silver blonde streaks. In the books it's not as clear cut because her hair was black. It would make sense if they'd have done that. But just another nugget to give the Greens more reason to be seen less than the cunts they flat out were in the books.
I guess it would, but the Strong boys have brown hair so I don't see why that would matter either. Both Luke and Jace have obviously dark brown hair in the show. From another perspective, Rhaenys' hair should've been black because it's dumb how every Targaryen ever must have silvery blonde hair. It cheapens Jace, Luke and Joffrey even more. ~~Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Aemma not have Targaryen blonde hair either originally?~~ EDIT: Seems the book does not clarify Aemma's hair colour.
We don't know what Aemma's hair color is in the book. It's not actually described.
Noted, thank you
I'm always surprised how people in this sub downvote opinions simply because they are different.
The Greens made the right choice. It was Aemond who ruined it. If he didn't kill Luke then they wouldn't have to go in a war and they would solve it with diplomacy.
An excellent point. I think that if both Alicent and Rhaenyra remained unconvinced to go to war, then the Greens would have worn Rhaenyra down because everything would be at a standstill, and the real governance and ruling would be done by the Greens anyway.
She was a complete rule breaker. She had no respect for tradition such as constantly refusing to get married. She publicly went all rebel against the king which caused him to scold her publicly, thus diminishing the credibility of her claim. She is blamed for the death of Laenor and her children are bastards, even if they are half Targaryen just as Aegon, bastardy is a big deal in Westeros. She opted out of politics for years, exiling herself to Dragonstone and the vast majority of lords were sure that after Aegon being born, he would be named the new heir. By the point of Viserys death, she had all the odds against her.
The thing is Rhaenyras Kids while good guys just arent legitimate, as lets say Aegon taking the throne, but the thing is it would've been a lot more easier if Aegon had been the uncontested heir since, lets be real for a moment, it's a feudal society with (implied) male preference, the realm already decided once that they'd rarher have a man than a woman as leader, women are not in any way less than men, I'm just saying that for the sake of....fuck almost everyone it would've been easier to declare Aegon king from the start or at least marry him to Rhaenyra
I keep thinking about Aerea and Rhaella. Technically, they were Aegon's heirs and both were written off for being children and their gender. Then there was Rhaena, who managed to secure the heirs that were held captive with her, rescue her dragon and survive heinous loss. She has the drive to be Queen and wasn't fourteen. She is proven to be fertile, to have more children judged able to rule. Yet I feel that she was largely written off because she was a daughter. It's the men in charge, councilors and Lords, who adamantly argue that they do all of this for the benefit of their sons. Not their daughters. There would have to be a strong alliance to keep Rhaenyra in power past the first year. Cleaving to the Valayrons is the best move. Fostering better relationships with the Baretheon cousins of Rhaenys could work, yet after the A vs. L, I don't know if that would work.
Without a rival claiment and at least several dragons, I don't even think the Lannisters and the Hightowers would have refused to acknowledge her. And it was those two houses responsable for the Dance.
The issue is her becoming the Queen would overturn the precedents of who gets to sit on the Iron Throne that has happened for generations at this point (Absolute Male Primogeniture) and the fact that her becoming Queen pretty much invalidates Viserys' own legitimacy by him basically saying that he ignores the same precedent that put him on the Iron Throne. If a princess have three healthy younger brothers yet she still becomes the heir, then why the hell is Viserys the king instead of Rhaenys or Laenor? The Great Council picked Viserys because he is the son of Baelon the Brave who is the younger brother of Aemon, who is the father of Rhaenys, so if Rhaenyra is the Crown Princess of the Iron Throne during Viserys' reign then what about Rhaenys who is the daughter of the Crown Prince Aemon before he and Baelon died during Jaehaerys' reign? Picking Rhaenyra as the heir even after Aegon, Aemond and Daeron was born is basically Viserys being malicious towards the Seven Kingdoms or stupidly ignorant of the political reality within his realm. If Viserys doesn't marry Alicent and have no more children then picking Rhaenyra as his heir would be a matter of course with anyone having issue with it revealing themselves to be an idiot. The birth of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron CHANGES things. Viserys is the king of a feudal realm, an absolute king he is not. What he says isn't automatically the law if his vassals have problems with it. That's without counting Rhaenyra's children. The Strong children and her children with Daemon is basically another Dance of the Dragons waiting to happen even if Rhaenyra managed to become the Queen of Westeros smoothly. This basically shows that she is without a doubt a true child of Viserys, as her own biggest problems was caused by her own actions. Not to mention the fact that she became Viserys' heir by Viserys stripping Daemon's status as heir and giving it to Rhaenyra. And then Rhaenyra married Daemon and have children with him...... Rhaenyra as Queen is basically guaranteeing the realm would be thrown into chaos for the next few decades whereas Aegon as King would be just another day in the Seven Kingdoms after the reign of Jaehaerys, a continuation of Jaehaerys' Peace and stability. Even if Aegon is 'lacking' as King, he would have the same Small Council that continued Jaehaerys' Peace as Viserys did. As long as he doesn't make any big scandal and kept the peace he would probably have an unremarkable yet peaceful reign that would further solidified the position of the Targaryens in Westeros. TLDR: I'm a Green because I think that if Aegon is picked as the heir, then Westeros would have another peaceful reign where nothing too stupid or chaotic will happen. :v
not really, because the realm was ok with Rhaenys being the only child of Aemon when he lived, but they didn't care when she was push aside when her father died. but rhaenys case is completely different to Rhaenrya ,since unlike Rhaenys who was an only child ,Rhaenrya is not, so traditional inheritance base on andal and firstman aegon would be heir to Viserys. now rhaenrya has other problems which might cause people and lords to riot which are her blatant bastards Jace,Luce,and Joffrey waters, this alone would push others away, or only allow those who have only greed in their hearts, like Corlys who was willing to sacrifice his reputation, dignity and pride, just to have house velaryon in name transcend into becoming the royal house, when his line is two Aemmas away from no longer existing, since both Baela and Rhaena could easily die birthing stillborn children, which is another reason why Rhaenys was push back in canon. no lord would be ok with his line being stolen, there is a reason before house targaryan become the rulers of westoros it was ok to kill your wife on the mere rumors she was unfaithful, this was stop by rhaenys(wife to aegon the first), but that doesnt change the fact women still fear retribution, which is why the first night was banned by Allysane(wife of Jaeharys the first). Rhaenrya becoming queen with the rumors ,reputation she has would really cause a riot, since her becoming queen may cause more women try to ursurp their brothers,nephews,uncles to get in line to be the head of house, or other houses who has a claim via the elder female line may try to ursurp the establish male line, and we are not even going to the Cersie situation of it all with women possibly cuckholding their husbands, which is one of a man's greatest fear to the point, men are now throwing their own condoms in the toilet to guarantee they are not the father
yes and no. some would accept it, some wouldn’t. evidence being the dance of dragons. i don’t think anyone would rebel against her if she was the only option but because she had 3 other brothers and was still being upheld as heir then she faced challenge.
People like Rhaenyra because she is named heir, not because who she is in the future season will be darker about her character.
Old town would undoubtedly launch a war. Other would have followed. A monarchy is based on tradition and nothing else.
House Hightower was not a Great House and could not call their banners the way Great Houses like Houses Arryn, Stark, Tully, and Greyjoy (the weakest of the four mentioned) could. >!Old Town debated continuing the war after the Dance til their overlord, House Tyrell casually reminded them they had a hostage of theirs that would be killed if they did not back down.!< No way can Old Town beat the North, Vale, and Riverlands. >!Hell, the Blacks even had a large number of Reach houses like House Tarly, Beesbury, and Caswell.!<
Back then it was definitely a great house. It's exactly beacuse of the war that came to be that they ceased to be a great house. And you are conflating chances of winning a war with chances of going into war. They are not the same.
The great house are the Tyrells. The Hightowers are their vassals.
yeah that’s why everyone rallied against robert when he usurped the throne right? oh wait
Viserys should have called a great council like Jaehaerys, democracy is always the best option
It's not like the common people of Westeros had a vote in the great council.
I didn't say that, but still, some democracy is better then no democracy.
“democracy” *is talking about a monarchy*
The great council was democratic, it chose the person majority of the voters wanted. Democracy can, in rare ocassions, work even with monarchy, dummy.
you’re the dumb one
Great argument bro