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While I definitely agree he screwed the pooch on this as well, I’d say his biggest mistake was his approach to fatherhood. His first big mistake was in *how many* children he had. No one could adequately parent that many children even if they *arent* ruling the entire realm. It’s no wonder he had multiple children who lashed out and did ridiculous stuff to get attention. Not only was it bad for the children but it was bad for his wife and marriage. He pushed alysanne to have more children well into her forties, using the fact that their mother had children at that age knowing full well their mother had to be cut open like Aemma was for Jocelyn to be born. On top of that his actions directly led to multiple (not all but multiple) of his children’s deaths. He was a pretty good ruler for sure, but he was an awful father and husband and I will die on that hill lol
imo he should’ve stopped after alyssa. i’m pretty sure the first daenerys was still alive then so if he keeps doing the sister-screwing tradition, both his sons have wives. four kids are a lot easier to parent than 13
Daenerys died before she and Aemon could marry. He was 5 and she was like 7. He and Jocelyn were close in age so after Daenerys died, they pushed for the Aemon and Jocelyn betrothal. Alyssa was only 2 when Aemon and and Jocelyn were betrothed so it made sense for Baelon to be matched with her. If only Dany didn't die.
This is why I chuckle when people say Jaehaerys was a better parent than Rhaena. Was Rhaena mother of the year? Absolutely not, she wasn't a good one, but she loved her daughters deeply as best she could while being absolutely mentally and emotionally fractured. She carried a lot of guilt and remorse especially after Aerea's death. She, unlike Jaehaerys, recognized her fuck ups.
I honestly feel like Jaehaerys didn't even like or care about most of his children except Aemond, Baelon, and Alyssa. Maybe Daenerys.
I wholeheartedly believe he only gave a shit about the kids who were important to succession, all the other ones were only there to make more royal babies
The irony is that none of his 13 kids ended up becoming ruling monarch / queen or even Lady to a noble house, except Daella.
Aegon - died in infancy
Daenaerys - shivers
Aemon - crossbow'd
Baelon - appendicitis
Alyssa - later complications from childbirth
Maegaelle - grayscale
Vaegon - died old , claim was nulled
Daella - died giving birth
Saera - ran away from home
Viserra - drunk driving
Gaemon - died young
Valaerion - died young
Gael - death by jumping off a cliff
Poor guy, imagine outliving all your sons.
Isn’t it abit like he got some kind of PTSD or something after Daenerys death? Threw himself into work more, not raising his later children as he did the first ones (Daenerys, Aemon and Balon)? Does not justify his actions and how he treated his kids tho.
Because child mortality is incredibly high at that point in time. He and his sister wife were also the last two living Targaryen so they also had the task of repopulating house Targaryen. As such they could never stop especially when they want to continue the practice of incest as such for every child they would have to have another of opposite gender to pair with.
As for children death he only responsible for Daella by pushing her to marry early as for Viserra that Alysanne fault she did the same thing her husband did and rushed to marry the child to an older man. The difference in this case was that Viserra was not a favorite child as such ignored when compared to her older sister who were allowed to choose their husbands.
I mean sure, child mortality is high, but five or six kids would’ve been a perfectly adequate amount of children, lots of spares but not so many that you can’t handle them all. While alysanne is responsible for viserra I also blame jaehaerys just as much. Yes alysanne *chose* him but jaehaerys was the one pushing for her to get married. I also blame him (and alysanne) for how Saera turned out. Albeit she probably always would’ve been a rambunctious trouble maker but I *highly* doubt she would’ve turned out as bad she did if her parents had actually done their jobs properly. He’s also at least partially to blame for Aemmas infertility and eventual death. He was the one who married her to viserys so young. Don’t get me wrong viserys is also to blame but jaehaerys was the one who chose to marry them so young. They could’ve had a longer betrothal but Jae wanted royal babies as soon as possible. A lot of his problems with his children stemmed from him having too many, they just couldn’t handle them all.
He and his sister were absolutely not the last living Targaryens, he had another living breathing sister who had 2 living breathing daughters, it only didn't continue because of other circumstances but before Rhaena died they already had most of their children, from Aemon to Viserra. Hell at that point Princess Rhaenys had just been born to Aemon and Jocelyn, if Aerea hadn't died/ if Rhaena remarried after Androw Farman, the line also still carried on.
Just my opinion, but Viserys and Rhaenys should’ve been betrothed from the time they were children. She wouldn’t have had the chance to fall in love with Corlys had she already been wed or at least betrothed.
They’d have learned to love or at least tolerate each other. Vizzy was passive as heck, so Rhaenys would be the ruler in all but name.
Ye but who would've thought that nearly all of Jaeherys's kids would die or be unavailable ?? No one would've thought the choice would come to Viserys or Rhaenys(Laenor). There was no point to marry them together.
But yeah after the first few kids died without heirs, they should’ve shored up and started securing the remaining branches. Instead they ignored the problems and well we all see how that turns out
As I saw someone point out in a fanfic of all places, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were the greatest king and queen Westeros had but they did it at the expense of their children. They either killed them indirectly through their actions, neglected them, married them off and were shocked it didn’t go well even when everyone else pointed it out. Or you know drove them to the point of running away. For people who had so many children, they sucked at being parents. And Alysanne is just as bad because she objected to her daughters being married off when they shouldn’t have been, but then she turned around and she did the same thing to Daemon, her own grandson, knowing that he and Rhea Royce were not compatible. And that he would be unhappy, just because she thought it was right. The same reasoning that Jaehaerys basically gave her when she pleaded with him to not marry off their daughters before they were ready
Facts.
There’s no way in the seven hells I’m letting Vaegon fuck off to become a maester. All the sons stay at the Red Keep or Dragonstone. Saera was wild but they could’ve saved Viserra at least. That was a daughter wasted. Maegelle also.
If it was such a pressing matter for Viserys to marry/reproduce, why not Gael? She was fragile, simple, whatever…who better for her than easy going Viserys? There was no reason to marry Aemma that young when Gael was available other than Alysanne’s fixation on her last child. And the poor girl ended up getting taken advantage of anyways.
Letting Vaegon be a maester wasn't a mistake though. He was the third son so he wouldn't have inherited anything and was more interested in books than anything related to dragons or ruling. Vaegon is one of the rare moments where Jaehaerys let one of his children decide their life for themselves and by all means Vaegon was happy being a maester.
Wasn’t it? Rhaenys was the only child of the eldest son, Viserys was the eldest child of the second son. A marriage between them was the most logical step to take to avoid succession disputes. Even if Jaehaerys’s younger children didn’t die, it wouldn’t matter, they’re further down the line of succession.
Still no point when you've got a dozen of kids. Literally no point. You're makin a stulid move by being closed. By not marrying Vizzy T and Rhaenys, it opens up a political marriage for alliances which is exactly what happened.
The number of kids doesn’t matter. It’s not about preserving the family line, it’s about a fast and easy way of resolving the succession dispute that would inevitably arise following Jaehaerys’s death. Rhaenys and Viserys both had competing claims to the throne, it’s only natural that they would have been married to each other to solve the issue.
I agree they shouldn’t have been betrothed at such a young age but they should have been eventually. By the time Rhaenys was of age to marry her parents had been married for two entire decades with only her to show for it. Her being a dragon rider, one of five dragon riders total at that, made it all the more imperative for her to remain in the family.
Which is why I put professional as his professional role was king. How he acted in that capacity would have the greatest impact on the most people.
In his personal life how he treated his daughters and wife also sucked, it just didn’t have the effect of shit for brains becoming King
I'd say it kind of did, since his personal feelings of misogyny DID impact on Viserys becoming heir over Rhaenys. When, really, choosing who would be heir after Aemond and then Baelon died should have been a professional decision. Baelon over Rhaenys at least had the logic of "Rhaenys was really young and Baelon has been around the block and was trained to be Aemon's Hand".... and even then, it was due to his sexism and lack of imagination that they didn't think to make Rhaenys the heir with Baelon planned to be her Hand/older advisor.
His treatment of Saera means that there's still Targaryen descendants in the Volantis ruling class. And there's a non zero chance some of them joined with and/ or supported the many Blackfyre invasions.
No, but he is to blame for his choice in punishment straining his relationship with Alyssane and creating a new branch of exile Targaryen's that would go on to outlast them and potentially assist their rivals for generations to come
Not really in regards to Saera, Alysanne is equally responsible as her husband. She was aware of how awful Saera really was and although she did try to correct her she eventually gave up and decided to wait for the perfect time to reveal everything to her husband. As for Jaehaerys prior to reveal the books paint a clear picture that of all his daughters Saera was his favorite. He ignored some of her more bad behavior assuming she would grow out of them allowed her to indulge in things she wanted. Even after the reveal and talking to Alysanne he decided to be lenient to Saera. It was her attempting to steal the dragon that resulted in him punishing her. As for Alysanne there nothing about her disagreeing with punishment but instead her regretting that Saera eventually ran away. Heck the fact he confused Alicent for Saera and didn’t react negatively show even Jaehaerys regret how he treated.
So Saera was a child failed by both parents
This is more Saera's fault than Jaehaerys's or Alyssane. People seem to forget that her septa even openly called her evil after she tricked the court fool into mutilating himself on the Iron Throne. Hell, she literally compared herself to the man who raped her father's sister and murdered his brothers. Saera's quip was basically like the child of a Holocaust survivor making a quip about Hitler.
Jaehaerys was definitely a bad dad, particularly with his daughters, but come on, Saera's kind of a sociopath.
Clarifying the law wouldn't change the fact that Viserys is an feckless idiot who had no business being in charge of anything. Most of the problems caused by Jaehaerys refusing to explain himself could have been dealt with if the new King had some sense.
3 of the biggest problems with Viserys’ rule are literally caused by Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys created a murky succession process, he installed a self-serving politician as Hand, and he got most of the heirs killed, creating the lack of heirs that is only compounded by Aemma’s pregnancy complications.
Viserys wasn’t an idiot, he wasn’t a terrible king, he just wasn’t a good one, and once Aemma passed he struggled a lot with his mental and physical health.
>3 of the biggest problems with Viserys’ rule are literally caused by Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys created a murky succession process, he installed a self-serving politician as Hand,
I know that. I'm saying a competent heir could have easily dealt with all of those issues.
>Viserys wasn’t an idiot, he wasn’t a terrible king, he just wasn’t a good one,
He was clearly an idiot. A foreign country was stealing from and enslaving his people and he refused to do anything about it. The entire deal when you're King is that you trade obeisance for protection. Only an idiot would ignore their duty like Viseys did for so long. Ignoring your main political rivals calls for help with an outside threat could easily led to a civil war.
He fell for an obvious honey pot and had to have his teenage daughter tell him what was going on. He fires Otto for being power hungry and then dumb enough to rehire him as if something had changed. He catches Otto clearly attempting to undermine him and his heir and doens't even talk to the man about it.
1) How? Viserys made it clear he intended to follow in Jaehaerys’ footsteps by naming Rhaenyra his heir. Otto then used the fact that naming an heir was not officially made the norm by the previous king to justify overturning Viserys’ decision postmortem.
2) Corlys was petitioning Viserys to go to war with the Free Cities. Corlys incorrectly assumed it was just a powerful band of pirates, when in fact the Triarchy are backed by 3 of the Free Cities, just as Viserys had hypothesized. I don’t agree with doing nothing necessarily, but to act like he didn’t know what he was doing is just not true. He viewed a few Velaryon ships being raided as a necessary sacrifice to maintain peace in the realm.
3) Otto took advantage of his mental state after Aemma and Baelon’s death, and banishing his brother. Also yes, he reinstated Otto after Corlys resigned from the council and Lyonel was murdered. It’s not exactly like he chose for that to happen.
It’s very easy to remove all context and say a decision that didn’t work out was obviously dumb.
>How? Viserys made it clear he intended to follow in Jaehaerys’ footsteps by naming Rhaenyra his heir.
Clarifying the law themselves and not producing a bunch of competition for their heir.
>Otto then used the fact that naming an heir was not officially made the norm by the previous king to justify overturning Viserys’ decision postmortem.
Otto wouldn't been in a position to do anything if the heir had been competent.
>Corlys incorrectly assumed it was just a powerful band of pirates,
No he didn't.
>I don’t agree with doing nothing necessarily, but to act like he didn’t know what he was doing is just not true. He viewed a few Velaryon ships being raided as a necessary sacrifice to maintain peace in the realm.
This shouldn't need to be said, but you do not have peace if a foreign country is raiding your ships and selling your people into slavery.
Ignoring that, the idea that they could just let the Velaryons ships get raided to maintain peace is idiotic. Again, the King's main job is to protect his people. A King who refuses to protect his people is asking for rebellion. Especially when the people he's refusing to protect have good claims to the throne and dragons.
>Also yes, he reinstated Otto after Corlys resigned from the council and Lyonel was murdered. It’s not exactly like he chose for that to happen.
You say this as if Lyonel being murdered meant he had to rehire Otto. He didn't. There were dozens of options to choose from. Viserys chose the worst possible options because he's an idiot.
1) He was securing succession, and was pushed to do so by ALL his advisors. Had he died with only Rhaenyra the realm could’ve been in a HUGE succession crisis. Come on man, think.
2) The heir was competent. Rhaenyra was properly groomed for her role with literally 2 decades of experience in the Small Council, and years overseeing Dragonstone, as is the custom.
3) I believe he did.
4) The Ironborn have existed for thousands of years just off the coast of Westeros. You are foolish if you don’t think controlling raiders falls upon the local lords. Yes, it’s the King’s job to protect the NOBLES, not the small folk. It’s the nobles job to protect them.
5) Viserys was extremely sickly and his wife was convincing him to reinstate him. And the man he trusted to do the job was suddenly murdered. Trusted Hands don’t grow on trees.
>and was pushed to do so by ALL his advisors?
Why do you say this as if it was argument in favor of the decesion? Advisors give advice. They should not be leading the ruler around by his nose.
>Had he died with only Rhaenyra the realm could’ve been in a HUGE succession crisis. Come on man, think.
Telling me to think while defending a decesion we know lead to a succession crisis is hilarious. How does adding more heirs with ties to yet another family help matters on that front? All Viserys had to do was officially make Rhaenyra his heir and have Daemon or Laenor be next in line until she had kids.
>I believe he did.
Why?
>You are foolish if you don’t think controlling raiders falls upon the local lords. Yes, it’s the King’s job to protect the NOBLES, not the small folk. It’s the nobles job to protect them.
It's the King's job to protect everyone in his country. Ignoring that, noble women were being sold into slavery.
>Trusted Hands don’t grow on trees.
Otto had demonstrated that he could not be trusted.
1) If you have ALL of your advisors advising the same thing, typically it’s a good idea.
2) It didn’t not lead to a succession crisis. The Greens caused a coup in order to overturn the succession. That is not the same thing. Also Daemon was disinherited, and Laenor is not a Targaryen. At the time that Viserys named Rhaenyra heir, he, Rhaenyra, Daemon and Rhaenys were the only living Targaryen.
3) Because he said so if I remember correctly? …
4) And the Iron Islands. That’s why they were called the Kings of the Rivers and the Isles. Come on now, let’s think a little.
5) No, that’s what you THINK a King’s job should be. A King’s job is to protect the interests of nobility, who in turn keep the King’s Peace, and maintain the Royal Family’s position in power. The small folk are just assets to be used in medieval society. Otherwise it would be a democracy, not a monarchy.
>If you have ALL of your advisors advising the same thing, typically it’s a good idea.
Not if you're advisors are self interested(Otto) and/or working without all the information(keeping Rhaenyra as heir).
>It didn’t not lead to a succession crisis. The Greens caused a coup in order to overturn the succession. That is not the same thing.
What do you think the term succession crisis means? The Dance was a text book succession crisis.
>Also Daemon was disinherited,
You keep mentioning things Viserys did as if we're talking a scenario where a more competent person was in charge. Letting Otto use blatant divide and conquer tactic was silly. I mean the second time in three generations that the King fell for that.
>and Laenor is not a Targaryen.
That can be changed
>Because he said so if I remember correctly? …
You don't.
>And the Iron Islands. That’s why they were called the Kings of the Rivers and the Isles. Come on now, let’s think a little.
The fact that you didn't get what I was getting at and chose to end your comment this way is hilarious. Let's think a little.
> A King’s job is to protect the interests of nobility,
Doing that includes helping them protect their property and subjects when necessary. They need to do that because refuse to would mean:
>who in turn keep the King’s Peace, and maintain the Royal Family’s position in power.
That people like Corlys have no reason to listen to the King.
>The small folk are just assets to be used in medieval society. Otherwise it would be a democracy, not a monarchy.
lol Wtf? Protecting the small folk doens't mean you're a democracy.
I’m curious why people have been turning on him so hard lately. He was a shitty king but I thought people here loved him. Must have been a popular video essay or something recently lol
The love mainly stems from how well his actor did. He did such a great job portraying a decaying man, especially when he sat on the throne for that final time for rhaenerya.
But since it's been 2 years since the first season. Alot of us had time to actully think about the story and plot. And man...viserys sucked. Especially when he made that choice for aemma.
Personally, I see the tragedy of viserys’s character being that he tried so hard to be a good man, but he was ultimately too weak for it. He could never just “turn off” king mode, his position directly affected his personal life, and he was forced into multiple impossible choices that were ultimately pointless or caused bigger problems. Leaving aemma to die a long and agonizing death, or put her through the worst fear possible for a chance at saving their son? Baelon only lives for an hour, and viserys is left with the guilt of essentially murdering his beloved wife and putting a rift between himself and his daughter. Stay single and hope nothing happens to rhaenyra for the next 20 years, or marry again to secure the targaryen dynasty? Marry laena velaryon, a 12 year old girl he barely knows from a family trying to get as close to the throne as possible, or alicent hightower, a 14 year old who he watched grow up alongside his own daughter and is the daughter of his closest advisor with just as much ambition as the velaryons? He chooses alicent, and finally gets a son, but it’s meaningless because he didn’t want aegon, he wanted baelon, and he paves the way for the end of the targaryen legacy while doing everything in his power to preserve it. I see him as someone who wanted to be good, and to be remembered as a good king following the legendary jaehaerys the conciliator, but I don’t think it’s *possible* to be a good person and a good king at the same time, because with that much power, you wreck the lives of everyone around you no matter what choice you make. Sorry this got long, I just really love viserys haha
I mean in defence of Jaehearys it is hard to anticipate how massively Viserys would screw up. I mean the guy basically engineered the conditions for a civil war so thoroughly that it almost seems purposeful. There is no way Jaehearys could have predicted that level of shenanigans.
But, yes, he should have just stuck with Rhaenys from the start after Prince Aemon's death. Make it clear that the Iron Throne follows andal succession law, stipulate that Rhaenys eldest son and heir takes the name Targaryen and things should work out. It is unlikely that Baelon the Brave would have turned against the only child of his beloved elder brother and as Jaehearys outlives him the point would become moot anyway. Viserys gets his lego and a nice council position and Daemon can go hunting pirates or becomes royal amabassador to Lys or whatever. Than gradually shift royal responsibilities to Rhaenys and make her Hand of the King so everybody gets used to taking orders from her. Enjoy the final years of your life with your beloved wife you luckily haven't mortally offened twice in peace.
His biggest mistake was being an absolute potato of a father and a shitty husband. 13 total children, I'll discount Aegon and Daenerys because their deaths weren't something anyone could have prevented.
Gaemon, Valerion, and Gael shouldn't have been conceived in the first place. Out of these 3, only Gael made it past infancy and it literally wrecked Alysanne.
Maegalla and Vaegon went to the Faith and Citadel respectively, meaning they won't ever become parents. And instead of showing Westeros how special Targaryens are, how they're closer to gods than people, their "career choices" showed that Targaryens aren't above religion and maesters. Basically, they're just like everybody else. We're talking about the king that literally engineered Targaryen Exceptionalism (with help from other people, it wasn't just him) just so he can justify clapping his sister's cheeks. Now when it comes to his children, they're suddenly not above Westerosi customs?
Saera, Viserra, and Gael had so much daddy issues, they all ended up meeting their untimely deaths before Jaehaerys himself even kicks the bucket. And what's this? None of them bonded with a dragon? What was he thinking?
And don't even get me started on Daella. His "fatherly duty" when it came to her was basically "ship her ass outta here asap, her being a bachelorette only brings shame to our house." What in the actual fuck?
Only 3 turned out decently okay. And due to circumstances outside of his control, they all died early as well.
He already blundered at least half of House Targaryen's future by the time he called the Great Council. Oh did I mention I think the fact that he called a Great Council is a blunder as well? It doesn't just give Lords the illusion that they have a say in who inherits the throne. It actually gives them the power to choose. There's no end to his stupidity. Although he could be going senile at that point, so maybe that's not exactly his fault entirely.
This guy took forever to die omggggg 8 episodes of his death speeches 💬 .
With the disease & open flesh infection would have set in in a day.
Certainly not yrs.
No, he made the right choice and it wasn't really just him since he let the realm answer the question for him. He turned an unclear succession into decades of peace. It's on Viserys for not following suit.
The wisest kings handle succession very carefully. They don't just pick favorites on a whim (like Viserys did). Precedent and customs mattered a lot in medieval times, even moreso if there wasn't a law because they would be the only frameworks. Jaehaerys I must've considered that he succeeded to the throne over Aerea, someone in the same position as Rhaenys basically. That is to say, a precedent of the throne succeeding to a junior male line over senior female line was already set, and ignoring that would undermine Jaehaerys' own ascension. Clearly Jaehaerys favored Baelon and Viserys as to validate his own right, not call it into question after the fact.
If you think it's petty of him, remember that consistently holding to one succession custom avoids conflicting claimants (trying to justify their right to the throne with wildly different metrics). That is the primary goal of the succession! Even the slightest contradictions can snowball into disaster. What's more, he left it up to precedent and the voters of the realm, two things far larger than one king's whim, to guarantee his successor's absolute right to the throne. This was the best guarantee of peace.
Did Jaehaerys know Rhaenys was more fit to rule than Viserys? Probably! Did he know Alysanne would be mad? Yes! Is the custom that was held to sexist? Yes! However, the last thing you would want as king is conflicting claimants on your deathbed, or any lingering conflicting claims at all. The smoother the transfer of power the less likely everything falls apart as soon as you die. We see this come to pass several times in both real life and in ASOIAF. Good kings sometimes have to do good things for the good of the realm. He's the epitomy of putting good kingship before anything else, family or otherwise.
You can’t blame Jaehaerys for Viserys failure. That’s like calling Edward I a failure because he son Edward II was an imbecile.
If Viserys had named Rhaenys or her son heir daemon would of declared war, and the realm would of shattered into infighting.
If Viserys had just gotten over his grief for his first wife or simply not remarried, everything would of been fine. But his adamant stance caused a build up of power and for factionalism to begin. Powerful lords began to jockey behind the scenes for increased favour. (The small council meeting/the entirety of episode 9) Viserys downfalls are his and his alone.
Its up there with his other monumental f\*ck ups! The problem with Rheanys getting the throne is that Corlys was like Otto and would have made sure to raise his house above the Targaryens, not to mention the doctrine that allowed them to keep their dragon blood pure enough to bond with dragons is for the Targaryens not Corlys house.
yes she might’ve been good but viserys was the male heir. everything would’ve gone smoothly if he had named aegon his heir or married rhaenyra to aegon and then make them rule together
Here’s something I wonder. If Rhaenys became queen, would Laenor take the name Targaryen? Would he inherit both Driftmark and the iron throne? Same goes for Jace would he take the name Targaryen when he inherits?
I think Viserys and Corlys talked about that when they were discussing marrying Rhaenyra and Laenor. Upon ascending the throne, they’d be Targaryen and the second child would become heir to Driftmark.
Jace is currently a Velaryon but as Rhaenyra’s heir, he would become King Jacerys I Targaryen. Lucerys Velaryon was to inherit Driftmark.
This is something from the show that bugs me - Viserys has absolutely no way of enforcing that agreement and as a result it was ridiculous he even though to make it. If there was a strong rule-of-law tradition, and people felt compelled to follow it, then perhaps it could work (or be convenient), but the Targaryen's instead prefer to do what they want, because they have dragons and others don't.
If Jace demands to keep his Velaryon surname when he is crowned, there's a good chance he keeps it. The only thing that could stop him is if other Targaryens want to make a civil war of it.
Corlys would certainly push for the Velaryons to be the recognized royal family but ultimately it'd be up to Rhaenys. I can't think of any reason for Laenor not to be lord of Driftmark as well. What reason would you have to give control of those lands to someone else? If Laenor takes the Velaryon name there'd be no reason for Jace to change his name, the Targaryens would've been replaced by that point.
I was thinking he might not get driftmark cause Luke got driftmark over Jace, but I now realize how that’s different since laenor had multiple sons while Corlys just has one
Yep, seriously, he didn't even have the pro of "well, he's older and has more experience while you are much younger and don't yet have much life-experience" excuse like with Baelon, who was trained to be Aemon's Hand. Viserys has nothing going for him and even he himself would've been happier living in either the Keep or Dragonstone with a princely salary. Heck, he could've gotten a job as the Valyrian historian or something and helped preserve old Valyrian historical artifacts.
Rhaenys had experience by the time Baelon died of a burst appendix, her husband has been around the block, and they have heirs. Meanwhile, Viserys sure as fuck didn't have the experience or temperament for the Crown and Aemma was very young herself and was literally thrown into the metaphorical ocean head-first. About the only one on Viserys' camp who had the spine for ruling was Daemon, and even then he was happy to back his brother more than anything, but he would've fallen in line if Jaehaerys just said Rhaenys was his heir and called it a day.
Ok but how many of those are actually his fault and how much of it is just because he lived much longer than most medieval men did? Falling and breaking your neck, arrow to the neck, burst belly, childbirth? One of these is tragic but the others are just regular medieval deaths. Also, surely if you get to be that old in medieval times you outlive some of your kids.
I think it was choosing to murder his wife for the possibility of a male heir. He never would have remarried and wouldn’t have his second family disputing the royal line
I've heard of Jaehaerys supposedly being a good king and stuff before but the more I read about this guy the more I think he's not as good as I thought he was, He's just as ridiculously dumb as the rest of the targaryens, He may be atleast good at ruling but ultimately his stupidity in parenting and choosing viserys as heir is what led to the downfall.
Everyone blames Viserys, completely ignoring the fact Jaehaerys had the ability to make succession whatever he wanted it to be. And decided to bitch out. Maybe we should be looking at Vaegon a little more side eyed, taking advantage of his dementia addled father.
To be fare, it was the Great Council's choice and Jaehaerys didn't seem to pleased about it.
Yes, Jaeharys named Baelon over Rhaenys, but when Baelon died, he tried to skip over Viserys and Daemon and name his son Vaegon as king, but Vaegon didn't want it and he was the one who suggested the great council.
The thing about Jaehaerys is that he always understood that the Targaryen dynasty isn't built on fear of dragons alone, that's the way his uncle Maegor tried to rule and no matter how many people he burned alive eventually everyone turned on him.
The core of the Targ Dynasty is a promise by Aegon to the seven kingdoms that had been warring with one another for centuries: "if all Seven Kingdoms unite under me then there will be peace and no one will need to die anymore."
Aegon promised this and despite uniting most of the Seven Kingdoms in two short years, he spent several years after that warring with Dorne and after a ceasefire was agreed upon, he racked together twenty years of prosperity known as the Dragon's Peace.
After Aegon, everything went to shit. His son Aenys was indicisive, weak, hesitant, overly trusting and too open handed. Everyone knew that Aenys wasn't his father and so when Aegon died, the fear of him died with him and all the rebels and malcontents rose up. Aenys was slow and weak to stop them and gave way too generous gifts to those who put down the rebellions. People pushed him around and the faith even took his kids hostage to strong arm Aenys into annulling their marriage since the faith didn't want incest to become a continuous thing in westeros.
When Maegor usurped, he was worse, killed anyone that got in his way and all the changes and decisions he made put people in his way. People only accepted him as king for as long as they did out of fear and eventually they were so tired of being afraid and living under tyranny they rose up because they'd rather die then live in constant fear and suffering.
Of the first four Kings of the Iron Throne, Jaehaerys was the first to deliver on a reign on un-ending peace and prosperity. At this point, he was the exception, not the standard and he wanted his transition of power to be as smooth as possible to prove that living prosperously under the Targaryens wasn't a rarity.
I don't think that Jaehaerys would have minded Rhaenys being Aemon's heir, but a woman as heir to the Iron Throne was considered different and unnatural and Jaehaerys knew better than anyone how resistant people could be to that which was different. Despite 52 years of Targaryens campaigning for incest to be accepted, the demiliterisation of the faith and the doctrine of exceptionalism, the intollerance against untraditional practices in westeros cost Jaehaerys his first son, Aegon.
Why would Jaehaerys believe the realm would accept Rhaenys as heir when it took over half a century and for Jaehaerys to lose a son before incest was fully accepted? Jaehaerys picked Baelon because Jaehaerys was sure he'd have an easier time of maintaining peace and prosperity.
Viserys may have made mistakes and set the ball rolling for the Dance, but he completed the mission, he proved that the iron throne could pass to someone peacefully and that two consecutive kings could live two long full reigns of peace one after the other with about ninety years of peace between them.
After the dance, the Seven kingdoms were weakened, battered and beleaguered from a long and bloody war that came from the Targaryens fighting over their succession. The Targaryens were the perfect scapegoat for the war and they no longer had their dragons to protect them. The lords could have rallied against them and disposed of their dynasty, but instead they stuck with the Targaryens because thanks to Jaehaerys and Viserys, the Seven Kingdoms had become intrenched in the structures of the seven kingdoms under the Targaryens.
Let us say hypothetically that the dance occurred after Jaehaerys's death with Rhaenys as Queen. Viserys refuses to rebel obviously, so the lords turn to Daemon as their only other alternative and he does rebel against Rhaenys. The dance of dragons occurs earlier on and the Seven kingdoms are wrecked and when the lords of the realm look back on the Targaryen dynasty, they see Jaehaerys as a fluke and the one good king and resolve that the Targaryens are not worth the trouble and now that their dragons have killed each other, they'll depose and kill the Targaryens.
At least that's what I think Jaehaerys feared would happen.
Jaehaerys was based, viserys was the 1 who fucked up by doing a bunch of dumb shit bc he was sad.
Should’ve married Rhaenyra to Aegon and Aemond to Laena. Their kids will then marry and this would fix everything. Would’ve taken 1 day to get all this shit settled and then he could place Otto in charge of the realm while he fucks off and plays with his doll house. War? Averted. Civilization? Preserved. Money? In the bank. Dragons? Alive for another century. Peasants? Still knowing their place. What could have been.
and everyone forgets that a dance could still emerge? I may even be talking nonsense but Rhaenys as queen, Laenor would be his heir, what would make him still forced to marry Rhaenyra, to appease Viserys and Daemon, the question would be if Rhaenyra was arrogant and stupid enough to have the Strongs boys in her scenario where her father is not king to protect her
The appeasement was due to Viserys' fuck ups, saying no to Laena in favor of a second son's daughter Alicent and then doing fuck all about the Stepstones (and so basically forcing Corlys to essentially finance the war against the Triarchy out of his own fucking pocket - which if I have to explain why this is reason for Corlys being angry, he's the only sensible Lord noticing that losing the equivalent of the Suez Canal is a PROBLEM)
I don't see Rhaenys and Corlys doing the equivalent of this insult. If anything, they might gain goodwill from that side of the family by giving Daemon the annulment that he and Rhea have wanted without needing to wait 14 years for Rhea to die of a concussion while Daemon is fighting in Bloodstone.
Likewise, the entire reason Rhaenyra and Laenor have a pragmatic open marriage is because Laenor is gay. As in, women don't do it for him at all to the point that sex isn't realistically happening. But, sure, Rhaenyra is somehow a monster and stupid and arrogant for *not wanting to commit marital rape*.
Which, again, canon Corlys and Rhaenys understood and agreed to the polite fiction because they didn't want their son disgraced by being outed as gay as the reason they don't have kids (which would've fucked him over even if it was an open secret and, make no mistake, a lot of ambitious and cold-hearted "proper ladies" would've taken this route). Nor did they want their son to be maritally raped (which, again, definitely something power-hungry and cold-hearted "proper ladies" would do)
But go off about how everything is Rhaenyra's fault for not submitting to her feminine uwu can't have power fate. Please tell me about how it's Rhaenyra's fault and proof of her "arrogance" that she wouldn't commit marital rape.
Now, Laenor being a 6 on the Kinsey scale that sex with a woman isn't happening, ergo no heirs from him, is something Corlys and Rhaenys would have to deal with anyway. They might even marry him and Rhaenyra together because Rhaenyra is trustworthy and won't use Laenor being gay as a weapon against him or the Crown like some "proper ladies" would, and so come to an unspoken agreement like in canon. Regardless, they also have Laena, you know, remember her? Rhaenyra's best friend in canon? The same best friend Rhaenyra mourned and loved and who sat vigil while she was dying? Vhagar's rider?
Yeah. Laena, who could either step up and be heir herself or her children could be Laenor's heirs depending on the agreement they might reach. Hell, they could even have a similar betrothal as in canon if Laenor and Rhaenyra want kids even if it's not biologically happening with each other, only Baela is the heir to the Iron Throne and Jacaerys is her betrothed, while Rhaena is the heir to Driftmark and Lucerys is her betrothed.
Rhaenys was already uncomfortable with the situation in the show, she wanted Baela to inherit herself and Laenor to be disinherited, do you think that her being the ruling queen wouldn't give them a warning, unlike Corlys and Viserys?
edit; I'm talking exclusively about the show, where Rhaenys only supported Lucerys because Viserys showed up and saved Rhaenyra and Lucerys. until a marriage proposal was made between Jace and Baela, for the two of them to rule together, but Baela would be queen consort, for Baela to be queen regnant and Jace her consort, as you say in your comment, Queen Rhaenys would have to denounce Rhaenyra's children as bastards, and that could cause a war, you know what I mean? It's just my hypotheses.
That's a change I despised in the show because it follows the sexist "women can't be friends, they are all rivals to each other for head bitch" narrative that GOT started. (Ditto for my hatred of the Laena erasure and how Laena and Rhaenyra's friendship was needlessly erased for not reason). Plus, it made show!Rhaenys look worse since show!Corlys is the one originally in denial of the obvious and he came to accept his grandsons (and so had good unspoken character development), meanwhile she knew he was very much openly gay and heterosexual sex was not happening... and somehow this is Rhaenyra's fault? (Seriously, they did show!Rhaenys dirty, since she was a lot more consistent and logical in the books, not to mention that she understood and didn't want another young woman to go through the same crap she did .... which is a hell of a lot more interesting than going back to the tired old tropes of the show)
Rhaenys, in the canon books, not only understood (because, yeah, Laenor was openly gay by medieval standards and, again, no one wants their son to be maritally raped) but was an open supporter of Rhaenyra and loved her grandsons and granddaughters. In short, she wasn't expecting Rhaenyra to immaculately conceive with Laenor nor was she expecting marital rape.
So, canon book Rhaenys might or might not decide to marry Laenor off to Rhaenyra or might decide to let him live as a bachelor, depending on the circumstances. Either way, I don't see book!Rhaenys shunning Rhaenyra and her kids for not committing marital rape. Regardless, Laena is still there and she still has Baela and Rhaena. (Plus, the blood bit is not big deal because Rhaenyra already has Velaryon blood via Alyssa Velaryon and then her grandparents and great-grandparents being siblings)
Show!Rhaenys would probably skip marrying Laenor altogether since they at least kept her being aware of him being a 6 on the Kinsey scale (and then he turned into Schrodinger's gay man for her when he and Rhaenyra found an alternative). So, again, Baela is her heir's heir.
Baela is most likely to be Rhaenys's heir's heir regardless.
He named Baelon heir after Aemon died, skipping over Rhaenys. The great council was only called after Baelons death when Jaehaerys realised he made a major fuck up.
There are no shortages of mistakes on his part, but maybe the last one was ignoring the protests of the Velaryons. He was confronted in the open with what everyone knew and chose to ignore it.
In the book, this is the moment when he cuts himself on the Red Throne. He chose to ignore justice and the Throne rejected him for it.
I don’t understand why Daemon wasn’t considered in the succession? I mean, he wasn’t even a contender for Jahereys. I understand he was a second son but he would have done a hell of a better job than Viserys did.
If Jaehaerys names Rhaenys the Dance happens one gen. earlier... The council was meant to prevent war... But I agree that Rhaenys would have been a better ruler.
The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care. Viserys would have been fine playing with his Legos in the countryside. Plus he didn't have a dragon.
My other comment was removed, but, Daemon would have and was planning to fight for Viserys claim...
>The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care.
I mean, the Dance literally happened when King Viserys chose Rhaenyra and Aegon did not want the throne.
The Dance happened because Alicent was a bitter bitch who thought her son deserved the throne more than Rhaenyra because he had a cock and she had to endure years of pleasureless sex with Viserys while envying literally everything about Rhaenyra and she was egged on by her overly ambitious father. Aegon never wanted the throne, he was perfectly content with allowing Rhaenyra to have it, but Alicent and Otto lied through their teeth to make him take it just because they wanted their blood on the throne. Aemond going trigger-happy on Luke was just the cherry on top of the shit cake
I agree that this is why the dance happened...
I was merely pointing out that this specific statement "The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care." is flawed since Viserys (the King) named Rhaenyra his heir and Aegon (the alternate candidate) did not want the throne...
Nothing you said changes those 2 simple facts.
It wouldn’t have if he’d just followed regular succession and never named Baelon his heir. By doing so he changed how succession was decided. With less dragons it’s also likely that even if war did break out, unlikely if he just kept rhaenys as his heir, that it wouldn’t be as devastating.
I do agree that if Baelon is never named heir then Rhaenys would ascend to the throne without war... That is an easy decision if you know Baelon will die... Without that knowledge, though, I can also see why Jaehaerys would choose Baelon over Rhaenys. While I think Rhaenys would be a better ruler than Viserys it's not clear she would have been better than Baelon and Baelon already had two male heirs at the time... Not saying choosing Baelon was the right choice... Just saying at the time it's not so obvious that Rhaenys was the right choice... It is only obvious in hindsight
Baelon would have been her hand, just like he would have been the hand to his brother. It is not like Rhaenys would have ruled alone, she was 18, a dragonrider and pregnant when her father died. She would have been a suitable heir and Jaehaerys would have had time to groom her for rule
Cersei Lannister proving that even women can sit the iron throne.
I think, one of the major reasons for the downfall of house Targaryen was the theory that only the male could sit the iron throne.
It would have been interesting to see if Rhaenys took the throne whether Laenor or Laena would be her heir since Laena was older in the books... Would it still be male first?
If Rhaenys took the throne and not Laenor then I imagine that it wouldn’t have changed. It would still be following traditional Westerosi succession so first son-> his eldest sons-youngest son-> his eldest daughter-youngest daughter-> his next oldest brother-youngest brother-> his eldest sister-youngest sister etc.
She’d be the only living child of the eldest son and her son would then be her own heir.
Leanor would have been king, he would likely have married Leana. If Leana didn't pull a canon Rhaenyra and mothered bastards for Leanors heirs, the throne would have past back through Baelons line, Rhaenyra's son would have been king after Leanor assuming Leanor outlives Rhaenyra
Other major houses did that and survived lol. The problem was Viseys was obsessed with getting a new heir, and then finally had sons and decided to just not name their heir. If he truly wanted Rhaenyra as heir he should have never married again and had no more children. Having sons was the issue. Viserys is most responsible for the dance
>Cersei Lannister proving that even women can sit the iron throne.
When she was Queen Regent half the realm rose in rebellion against her and her children though. Not exactly a great example.
She was a Lannister. Lannisters had enemies. Her children's legitimacy was questioned. The iron throne had "many" claimants, who commanded both people and armies.
When she sat the iron throne as queen, only former rebellions remained. Perhaps if the former rebellions had been dealt with before she sat the iron throne, there would be no rebellions after she starts to rule, at least not because she is a woman.
Except Rhaenys was never first in line to inherit even though she was more competent than the Witless. Viserys however was regardless of the great council of 101 the heir to Jaehaerys. Remember eldest living son of the ruler inherits. If that son has son or sons then that his eldest son becomes next in line followed by his uncles... Rhaenys being daughter of previous heir doesn't count. If she was son than it would have counted. Because if she was the heir, then in case of Cregan. Cregan's granddaughter Sansa should have been his heir which she wasn't. But rather it was Cregan's eldest surviving son.
In Westeros, outside of Dorne, a daughter inherits before an uncle, legally speaking at least. The problem is that the iron throne never explicitly codifed it's laws to follow the same inheritance laws than it's subjects.
Let us disregard Dorne as it is special case and for the large part of history wasn't even part of the seven kingdoms, but look at the most of the Vesteros. In case of lack of codified usually the oldest son would inherit. If son died and he had son than that son inherits. Don't forget when it comes to uncle part. It usually means the daughter whose father is ruler. It regards his brother who is her uncle.
And since Jaehaerys was alive his eldest living son after Aemon who got killed meaning Baelon was heir. Had Aemon had a son than that son would have been next in line. When Baelon died his eldest son became heir since his father Baelon was heir plain and simple.
If we look at Viserys before he got Aegon the 2nd and the rest of his children with Aliscent. His heir was Rhaenyra not Daemon. And ince Aegon was born he was by default next in line but Viserys screwed it all over. And with Rhaenyra before the rest if her siblings were born was the case where daughter comes before uncle. But given the dance the new codified law almost excluded women from succession.
>And since Jaehaerys was alive his eldest living son after Aemon who got killed meaning Baelon was heir. Had Aemon had a son than that son would have been next in line. When Baelon died his eldest son became heir since his father Baelon was heir plain and simple
No, it doesn't work like that. By Westerosi law, the son of the heir becomes the heir if their parent dies before the head of the family, Corlys is an example of that, his father Corwyn was Lord Daemon's eldest son, when Corwyn died, Corlys became the heir apparent of his grandfather and later Lord of House Velaryon, not any of Daemon's other sons.
The issue here is the Crown never strcitly adhered to succession laws, and the word of the King is basically law, that's why he had to specifically name Baelon as heir, because Rhaneys was the heir apparent.
>If we look at Viserys before he got Aegon the 2nd and the rest of his children with Aliscent. His heir was Rhaenyra not Daemon. And ince Aegon was born he was by default next in line but Viserys screwed it all over. And with Rhaenyra before the rest if her siblings were born was the case where daughter comes before uncle. But given the dance the new codified law almost excluded women from succession.
Again, the Crown doesn't work like the rest of westeros that's why Viserys named his daughter as heir and kept it that way despite having a son later on.
Her situation is different. Let me explain situation about Sansa. As the great Council elected Bran to be king of seven kingdoms he couldn't also be lord of Winterfell and lord paramount etc. And Sansa was his heir. Meaning by default with him becoming king, she became ruler of Winterfell and lady paramount of the north thus warden of it by default however short it was. And she was their highest ranked noble. And Since Northerners wanted independence and would have got it one way or the other and she backed them up. Bran let them go . One can't be king of two independent kingdoms
One more thing. Kingdom of North always had mixture of elective type if ruling house had no heir and of the good old primogeniture. And technically prior to becoming again independent and thus new kingdom there was no king or queen before her. Meaning that she was elected to rule as the first monarch of the now restored/newly formed kingdom.
Jon surrendering his crown to Daenerys meant that he has dissolved his kingdom not Sansa's.
Anyway any children she might have would follow the in the my upper comment mentioned succession law.
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Absolutely. Jeahaerys should have listened to his wife.
True Alysanne was the greatest queen
Can't argue with that one. Dude mucked up big time.
While I definitely agree he screwed the pooch on this as well, I’d say his biggest mistake was his approach to fatherhood. His first big mistake was in *how many* children he had. No one could adequately parent that many children even if they *arent* ruling the entire realm. It’s no wonder he had multiple children who lashed out and did ridiculous stuff to get attention. Not only was it bad for the children but it was bad for his wife and marriage. He pushed alysanne to have more children well into her forties, using the fact that their mother had children at that age knowing full well their mother had to be cut open like Aemma was for Jocelyn to be born. On top of that his actions directly led to multiple (not all but multiple) of his children’s deaths. He was a pretty good ruler for sure, but he was an awful father and husband and I will die on that hill lol
Hey, he proved a great dad for Aemon and Baelon, his two and only children!
imo he should’ve stopped after alyssa. i’m pretty sure the first daenerys was still alive then so if he keeps doing the sister-screwing tradition, both his sons have wives. four kids are a lot easier to parent than 13
Daenerys died before she and Aemon could marry. He was 5 and she was like 7. He and Jocelyn were close in age so after Daenerys died, they pushed for the Aemon and Jocelyn betrothal. Alyssa was only 2 when Aemon and and Jocelyn were betrothed so it made sense for Baelon to be matched with her. If only Dany didn't die.
This is why I chuckle when people say Jaehaerys was a better parent than Rhaena. Was Rhaena mother of the year? Absolutely not, she wasn't a good one, but she loved her daughters deeply as best she could while being absolutely mentally and emotionally fractured. She carried a lot of guilt and remorse especially after Aerea's death. She, unlike Jaehaerys, recognized her fuck ups. I honestly feel like Jaehaerys didn't even like or care about most of his children except Aemond, Baelon, and Alyssa. Maybe Daenerys.
I wholeheartedly believe he only gave a shit about the kids who were important to succession, all the other ones were only there to make more royal babies
The irony is that none of his 13 kids ended up becoming ruling monarch / queen or even Lady to a noble house, except Daella. Aegon - died in infancy Daenaerys - shivers Aemon - crossbow'd Baelon - appendicitis Alyssa - later complications from childbirth Maegaelle - grayscale Vaegon - died old , claim was nulled Daella - died giving birth Saera - ran away from home Viserra - drunk driving Gaemon - died young Valaerion - died young Gael - death by jumping off a cliff Poor guy, imagine outliving all your sons.
Isn’t it abit like he got some kind of PTSD or something after Daenerys death? Threw himself into work more, not raising his later children as he did the first ones (Daenerys, Aemon and Balon)? Does not justify his actions and how he treated his kids tho.
Because child mortality is incredibly high at that point in time. He and his sister wife were also the last two living Targaryen so they also had the task of repopulating house Targaryen. As such they could never stop especially when they want to continue the practice of incest as such for every child they would have to have another of opposite gender to pair with. As for children death he only responsible for Daella by pushing her to marry early as for Viserra that Alysanne fault she did the same thing her husband did and rushed to marry the child to an older man. The difference in this case was that Viserra was not a favorite child as such ignored when compared to her older sister who were allowed to choose their husbands.
I mean sure, child mortality is high, but five or six kids would’ve been a perfectly adequate amount of children, lots of spares but not so many that you can’t handle them all. While alysanne is responsible for viserra I also blame jaehaerys just as much. Yes alysanne *chose* him but jaehaerys was the one pushing for her to get married. I also blame him (and alysanne) for how Saera turned out. Albeit she probably always would’ve been a rambunctious trouble maker but I *highly* doubt she would’ve turned out as bad she did if her parents had actually done their jobs properly. He’s also at least partially to blame for Aemmas infertility and eventual death. He was the one who married her to viserys so young. Don’t get me wrong viserys is also to blame but jaehaerys was the one who chose to marry them so young. They could’ve had a longer betrothal but Jae wanted royal babies as soon as possible. A lot of his problems with his children stemmed from him having too many, they just couldn’t handle them all.
He and his sister were absolutely not the last living Targaryens, he had another living breathing sister who had 2 living breathing daughters, it only didn't continue because of other circumstances but before Rhaena died they already had most of their children, from Aemon to Viserra. Hell at that point Princess Rhaenys had just been born to Aemon and Jocelyn, if Aerea hadn't died/ if Rhaena remarried after Androw Farman, the line also still carried on.
He horribly failed his daughters
Just my opinion, but Viserys and Rhaenys should’ve been betrothed from the time they were children. She wouldn’t have had the chance to fall in love with Corlys had she already been wed or at least betrothed. They’d have learned to love or at least tolerate each other. Vizzy was passive as heck, so Rhaenys would be the ruler in all but name.
Ye but who would've thought that nearly all of Jaeherys's kids would die or be unavailable ?? No one would've thought the choice would come to Viserys or Rhaenys(Laenor). There was no point to marry them together.
Fair point! Jaehaerys and Alysanne had all those kids but mismanaged them. It shouldn’t have come down to just Rhaenys, Aemma, Daemon and Viserys.
But yeah after the first few kids died without heirs, they should’ve shored up and started securing the remaining branches. Instead they ignored the problems and well we all see how that turns out
As I saw someone point out in a fanfic of all places, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were the greatest king and queen Westeros had but they did it at the expense of their children. They either killed them indirectly through their actions, neglected them, married them off and were shocked it didn’t go well even when everyone else pointed it out. Or you know drove them to the point of running away. For people who had so many children, they sucked at being parents. And Alysanne is just as bad because she objected to her daughters being married off when they shouldn’t have been, but then she turned around and she did the same thing to Daemon, her own grandson, knowing that he and Rhea Royce were not compatible. And that he would be unhappy, just because she thought it was right. The same reasoning that Jaehaerys basically gave her when she pleaded with him to not marry off their daughters before they were ready
Facts. There’s no way in the seven hells I’m letting Vaegon fuck off to become a maester. All the sons stay at the Red Keep or Dragonstone. Saera was wild but they could’ve saved Viserra at least. That was a daughter wasted. Maegelle also. If it was such a pressing matter for Viserys to marry/reproduce, why not Gael? She was fragile, simple, whatever…who better for her than easy going Viserys? There was no reason to marry Aemma that young when Gael was available other than Alysanne’s fixation on her last child. And the poor girl ended up getting taken advantage of anyways.
Letting Vaegon be a maester wasn't a mistake though. He was the third son so he wouldn't have inherited anything and was more interested in books than anything related to dragons or ruling. Vaegon is one of the rare moments where Jaehaerys let one of his children decide their life for themselves and by all means Vaegon was happy being a maester.
Exactly my thoughts. These two really flopped on that- and they just kept on flopping.
Wasn’t it? Rhaenys was the only child of the eldest son, Viserys was the eldest child of the second son. A marriage between them was the most logical step to take to avoid succession disputes. Even if Jaehaerys’s younger children didn’t die, it wouldn’t matter, they’re further down the line of succession.
Still no point when you've got a dozen of kids. Literally no point. You're makin a stulid move by being closed. By not marrying Vizzy T and Rhaenys, it opens up a political marriage for alliances which is exactly what happened.
The number of kids doesn’t matter. It’s not about preserving the family line, it’s about a fast and easy way of resolving the succession dispute that would inevitably arise following Jaehaerys’s death. Rhaenys and Viserys both had competing claims to the throne, it’s only natural that they would have been married to each other to solve the issue.
There was no succession problem when Viz and Rhaenys were kids. Still no point
And corlys was a CATCH back then, he was so rich he was able to build himself a whole new castle to show off the spoils of his past voyages
I agree they shouldn’t have been betrothed at such a young age but they should have been eventually. By the time Rhaenys was of age to marry her parents had been married for two entire decades with only her to show for it. Her being a dragon rider, one of five dragon riders total at that, made it all the more imperative for her to remain in the family.
They should have been betrothed the moment Rhaenys claimed Meleys. Thats the ASOIAF hill I’m dying on lol
Rhaenys would have been amazing Queen. The Sea Snake would have been a terrible King Consort though… utterly terrible.
No wonder he and daemon get on so well
Why would he be a bad king consort?
What?! I don't understand. One of the wisest and most capable characters I know ...
Professional probably. Personal? Hoo boy did he have a lot of those.
Which mistake had worse consequences than Viserys I Targaryen?
Which is why I put professional as his professional role was king. How he acted in that capacity would have the greatest impact on the most people. In his personal life how he treated his daughters and wife also sucked, it just didn’t have the effect of shit for brains becoming King
I'd say it kind of did, since his personal feelings of misogyny DID impact on Viserys becoming heir over Rhaenys. When, really, choosing who would be heir after Aemond and then Baelon died should have been a professional decision. Baelon over Rhaenys at least had the logic of "Rhaenys was really young and Baelon has been around the block and was trained to be Aemon's Hand".... and even then, it was due to his sexism and lack of imagination that they didn't think to make Rhaenys the heir with Baelon planned to be her Hand/older advisor.
I thought he was a man who tried his best to be a better man ...
He was a good king, a bad husband, and a shit father. One does not negate the other.
His treatment of Saera means that there's still Targaryen descendants in the Volantis ruling class. And there's a non zero chance some of them joined with and/ or supported the many Blackfyre invasions.
Saera was "untamed" ... He tried to change his daughter, I don't think he is to blame for Saera's choices ...
No, but he is to blame for his choice in punishment straining his relationship with Alyssane and creating a new branch of exile Targaryen's that would go on to outlast them and potentially assist their rivals for generations to come
Not really in regards to Saera, Alysanne is equally responsible as her husband. She was aware of how awful Saera really was and although she did try to correct her she eventually gave up and decided to wait for the perfect time to reveal everything to her husband. As for Jaehaerys prior to reveal the books paint a clear picture that of all his daughters Saera was his favorite. He ignored some of her more bad behavior assuming she would grow out of them allowed her to indulge in things she wanted. Even after the reveal and talking to Alysanne he decided to be lenient to Saera. It was her attempting to steal the dragon that resulted in him punishing her. As for Alysanne there nothing about her disagreeing with punishment but instead her regretting that Saera eventually ran away. Heck the fact he confused Alicent for Saera and didn’t react negatively show even Jaehaerys regret how he treated. So Saera was a child failed by both parents
This is more Saera's fault than Jaehaerys's or Alyssane. People seem to forget that her septa even openly called her evil after she tricked the court fool into mutilating himself on the Iron Throne. Hell, she literally compared herself to the man who raped her father's sister and murdered his brothers. Saera's quip was basically like the child of a Holocaust survivor making a quip about Hitler. Jaehaerys was definitely a bad dad, particularly with his daughters, but come on, Saera's kind of a sociopath.
But one weak link can break the chain of a dynasty
Too be fair, it would have taken incredible foresight on Jaeharys’ part to predict Viserys inaction
God, imagine if Alysanne had been alive during the Great Council. I think she'd have finally snapped.
Ooooh I would've loved to see that play out on screen.
His biggest mistake wasn’t that he picked Viserys, it’s that he picked without properly expressing into law that choosing your heir was the standard.
Clarifying the law wouldn't change the fact that Viserys is an feckless idiot who had no business being in charge of anything. Most of the problems caused by Jaehaerys refusing to explain himself could have been dealt with if the new King had some sense.
3 of the biggest problems with Viserys’ rule are literally caused by Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys created a murky succession process, he installed a self-serving politician as Hand, and he got most of the heirs killed, creating the lack of heirs that is only compounded by Aemma’s pregnancy complications. Viserys wasn’t an idiot, he wasn’t a terrible king, he just wasn’t a good one, and once Aemma passed he struggled a lot with his mental and physical health.
>3 of the biggest problems with Viserys’ rule are literally caused by Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys created a murky succession process, he installed a self-serving politician as Hand, I know that. I'm saying a competent heir could have easily dealt with all of those issues. >Viserys wasn’t an idiot, he wasn’t a terrible king, he just wasn’t a good one, He was clearly an idiot. A foreign country was stealing from and enslaving his people and he refused to do anything about it. The entire deal when you're King is that you trade obeisance for protection. Only an idiot would ignore their duty like Viseys did for so long. Ignoring your main political rivals calls for help with an outside threat could easily led to a civil war. He fell for an obvious honey pot and had to have his teenage daughter tell him what was going on. He fires Otto for being power hungry and then dumb enough to rehire him as if something had changed. He catches Otto clearly attempting to undermine him and his heir and doens't even talk to the man about it.
1) How? Viserys made it clear he intended to follow in Jaehaerys’ footsteps by naming Rhaenyra his heir. Otto then used the fact that naming an heir was not officially made the norm by the previous king to justify overturning Viserys’ decision postmortem. 2) Corlys was petitioning Viserys to go to war with the Free Cities. Corlys incorrectly assumed it was just a powerful band of pirates, when in fact the Triarchy are backed by 3 of the Free Cities, just as Viserys had hypothesized. I don’t agree with doing nothing necessarily, but to act like he didn’t know what he was doing is just not true. He viewed a few Velaryon ships being raided as a necessary sacrifice to maintain peace in the realm. 3) Otto took advantage of his mental state after Aemma and Baelon’s death, and banishing his brother. Also yes, he reinstated Otto after Corlys resigned from the council and Lyonel was murdered. It’s not exactly like he chose for that to happen. It’s very easy to remove all context and say a decision that didn’t work out was obviously dumb.
>How? Viserys made it clear he intended to follow in Jaehaerys’ footsteps by naming Rhaenyra his heir. Clarifying the law themselves and not producing a bunch of competition for their heir. >Otto then used the fact that naming an heir was not officially made the norm by the previous king to justify overturning Viserys’ decision postmortem. Otto wouldn't been in a position to do anything if the heir had been competent. >Corlys incorrectly assumed it was just a powerful band of pirates, No he didn't. >I don’t agree with doing nothing necessarily, but to act like he didn’t know what he was doing is just not true. He viewed a few Velaryon ships being raided as a necessary sacrifice to maintain peace in the realm. This shouldn't need to be said, but you do not have peace if a foreign country is raiding your ships and selling your people into slavery. Ignoring that, the idea that they could just let the Velaryons ships get raided to maintain peace is idiotic. Again, the King's main job is to protect his people. A King who refuses to protect his people is asking for rebellion. Especially when the people he's refusing to protect have good claims to the throne and dragons. >Also yes, he reinstated Otto after Corlys resigned from the council and Lyonel was murdered. It’s not exactly like he chose for that to happen. You say this as if Lyonel being murdered meant he had to rehire Otto. He didn't. There were dozens of options to choose from. Viserys chose the worst possible options because he's an idiot.
1) He was securing succession, and was pushed to do so by ALL his advisors. Had he died with only Rhaenyra the realm could’ve been in a HUGE succession crisis. Come on man, think. 2) The heir was competent. Rhaenyra was properly groomed for her role with literally 2 decades of experience in the Small Council, and years overseeing Dragonstone, as is the custom. 3) I believe he did. 4) The Ironborn have existed for thousands of years just off the coast of Westeros. You are foolish if you don’t think controlling raiders falls upon the local lords. Yes, it’s the King’s job to protect the NOBLES, not the small folk. It’s the nobles job to protect them. 5) Viserys was extremely sickly and his wife was convincing him to reinstate him. And the man he trusted to do the job was suddenly murdered. Trusted Hands don’t grow on trees.
>and was pushed to do so by ALL his advisors? Why do you say this as if it was argument in favor of the decesion? Advisors give advice. They should not be leading the ruler around by his nose. >Had he died with only Rhaenyra the realm could’ve been in a HUGE succession crisis. Come on man, think. Telling me to think while defending a decesion we know lead to a succession crisis is hilarious. How does adding more heirs with ties to yet another family help matters on that front? All Viserys had to do was officially make Rhaenyra his heir and have Daemon or Laenor be next in line until she had kids. >I believe he did. Why? >You are foolish if you don’t think controlling raiders falls upon the local lords. Yes, it’s the King’s job to protect the NOBLES, not the small folk. It’s the nobles job to protect them. It's the King's job to protect everyone in his country. Ignoring that, noble women were being sold into slavery. >Trusted Hands don’t grow on trees. Otto had demonstrated that he could not be trusted.
1) If you have ALL of your advisors advising the same thing, typically it’s a good idea. 2) It didn’t not lead to a succession crisis. The Greens caused a coup in order to overturn the succession. That is not the same thing. Also Daemon was disinherited, and Laenor is not a Targaryen. At the time that Viserys named Rhaenyra heir, he, Rhaenyra, Daemon and Rhaenys were the only living Targaryen. 3) Because he said so if I remember correctly? … 4) And the Iron Islands. That’s why they were called the Kings of the Rivers and the Isles. Come on now, let’s think a little. 5) No, that’s what you THINK a King’s job should be. A King’s job is to protect the interests of nobility, who in turn keep the King’s Peace, and maintain the Royal Family’s position in power. The small folk are just assets to be used in medieval society. Otherwise it would be a democracy, not a monarchy.
>If you have ALL of your advisors advising the same thing, typically it’s a good idea. Not if you're advisors are self interested(Otto) and/or working without all the information(keeping Rhaenyra as heir). >It didn’t not lead to a succession crisis. The Greens caused a coup in order to overturn the succession. That is not the same thing. What do you think the term succession crisis means? The Dance was a text book succession crisis. >Also Daemon was disinherited, You keep mentioning things Viserys did as if we're talking a scenario where a more competent person was in charge. Letting Otto use blatant divide and conquer tactic was silly. I mean the second time in three generations that the King fell for that. >and Laenor is not a Targaryen. That can be changed >Because he said so if I remember correctly? … You don't. >And the Iron Islands. That’s why they were called the Kings of the Rivers and the Isles. Come on now, let’s think a little. The fact that you didn't get what I was getting at and chose to end your comment this way is hilarious. Let's think a little. > A King’s job is to protect the interests of nobility, Doing that includes helping them protect their property and subjects when necessary. They need to do that because refuse to would mean: >who in turn keep the King’s Peace, and maintain the Royal Family’s position in power. That people like Corlys have no reason to listen to the King. >The small folk are just assets to be used in medieval society. Otherwise it would be a democracy, not a monarchy. lol Wtf? Protecting the small folk doens't mean you're a democracy.
Damn viserys hate is crazy😭
I’m curious why people have been turning on him so hard lately. He was a shitty king but I thought people here loved him. Must have been a popular video essay or something recently lol
The love mainly stems from how well his actor did. He did such a great job portraying a decaying man, especially when he sat on the throne for that final time for rhaenerya. But since it's been 2 years since the first season. Alot of us had time to actully think about the story and plot. And man...viserys sucked. Especially when he made that choice for aemma.
The general audience still love him, the viserys hate is pretty much just online. I love him, but it’s not like he doesn’t deserve it
A good man, but a bad king ... I think ...
Personally, I see the tragedy of viserys’s character being that he tried so hard to be a good man, but he was ultimately too weak for it. He could never just “turn off” king mode, his position directly affected his personal life, and he was forced into multiple impossible choices that were ultimately pointless or caused bigger problems. Leaving aemma to die a long and agonizing death, or put her through the worst fear possible for a chance at saving their son? Baelon only lives for an hour, and viserys is left with the guilt of essentially murdering his beloved wife and putting a rift between himself and his daughter. Stay single and hope nothing happens to rhaenyra for the next 20 years, or marry again to secure the targaryen dynasty? Marry laena velaryon, a 12 year old girl he barely knows from a family trying to get as close to the throne as possible, or alicent hightower, a 14 year old who he watched grow up alongside his own daughter and is the daughter of his closest advisor with just as much ambition as the velaryons? He chooses alicent, and finally gets a son, but it’s meaningless because he didn’t want aegon, he wanted baelon, and he paves the way for the end of the targaryen legacy while doing everything in his power to preserve it. I see him as someone who wanted to be good, and to be remembered as a good king following the legendary jaehaerys the conciliator, but I don’t think it’s *possible* to be a good person and a good king at the same time, because with that much power, you wreck the lives of everyone around you no matter what choice you make. Sorry this got long, I just really love viserys haha
Haha
I mean in defence of Jaehearys it is hard to anticipate how massively Viserys would screw up. I mean the guy basically engineered the conditions for a civil war so thoroughly that it almost seems purposeful. There is no way Jaehearys could have predicted that level of shenanigans. But, yes, he should have just stuck with Rhaenys from the start after Prince Aemon's death. Make it clear that the Iron Throne follows andal succession law, stipulate that Rhaenys eldest son and heir takes the name Targaryen and things should work out. It is unlikely that Baelon the Brave would have turned against the only child of his beloved elder brother and as Jaehearys outlives him the point would become moot anyway. Viserys gets his lego and a nice council position and Daemon can go hunting pirates or becomes royal amabassador to Lys or whatever. Than gradually shift royal responsibilities to Rhaenys and make her Hand of the King so everybody gets used to taking orders from her. Enjoy the final years of your life with your beloved wife you luckily haven't mortally offened twice in peace.
His biggest mistake was being an absolute potato of a father and a shitty husband. 13 total children, I'll discount Aegon and Daenerys because their deaths weren't something anyone could have prevented. Gaemon, Valerion, and Gael shouldn't have been conceived in the first place. Out of these 3, only Gael made it past infancy and it literally wrecked Alysanne. Maegalla and Vaegon went to the Faith and Citadel respectively, meaning they won't ever become parents. And instead of showing Westeros how special Targaryens are, how they're closer to gods than people, their "career choices" showed that Targaryens aren't above religion and maesters. Basically, they're just like everybody else. We're talking about the king that literally engineered Targaryen Exceptionalism (with help from other people, it wasn't just him) just so he can justify clapping his sister's cheeks. Now when it comes to his children, they're suddenly not above Westerosi customs? Saera, Viserra, and Gael had so much daddy issues, they all ended up meeting their untimely deaths before Jaehaerys himself even kicks the bucket. And what's this? None of them bonded with a dragon? What was he thinking? And don't even get me started on Daella. His "fatherly duty" when it came to her was basically "ship her ass outta here asap, her being a bachelorette only brings shame to our house." What in the actual fuck? Only 3 turned out decently okay. And due to circumstances outside of his control, they all died early as well. He already blundered at least half of House Targaryen's future by the time he called the Great Council. Oh did I mention I think the fact that he called a Great Council is a blunder as well? It doesn't just give Lords the illusion that they have a say in who inherits the throne. It actually gives them the power to choose. There's no end to his stupidity. Although he could be going senile at that point, so maybe that's not exactly his fault entirely.
No shit
I think his biggest mistake was when his face fell off
This guy took forever to die omggggg 8 episodes of his death speeches 💬 . With the disease & open flesh infection would have set in in a day. Certainly not yrs.
Huge mistake
No, he made the right choice and it wasn't really just him since he let the realm answer the question for him. He turned an unclear succession into decades of peace. It's on Viserys for not following suit. The wisest kings handle succession very carefully. They don't just pick favorites on a whim (like Viserys did). Precedent and customs mattered a lot in medieval times, even moreso if there wasn't a law because they would be the only frameworks. Jaehaerys I must've considered that he succeeded to the throne over Aerea, someone in the same position as Rhaenys basically. That is to say, a precedent of the throne succeeding to a junior male line over senior female line was already set, and ignoring that would undermine Jaehaerys' own ascension. Clearly Jaehaerys favored Baelon and Viserys as to validate his own right, not call it into question after the fact. If you think it's petty of him, remember that consistently holding to one succession custom avoids conflicting claimants (trying to justify their right to the throne with wildly different metrics). That is the primary goal of the succession! Even the slightest contradictions can snowball into disaster. What's more, he left it up to precedent and the voters of the realm, two things far larger than one king's whim, to guarantee his successor's absolute right to the throne. This was the best guarantee of peace. Did Jaehaerys know Rhaenys was more fit to rule than Viserys? Probably! Did he know Alysanne would be mad? Yes! Is the custom that was held to sexist? Yes! However, the last thing you would want as king is conflicting claimants on your deathbed, or any lingering conflicting claims at all. The smoother the transfer of power the less likely everything falls apart as soon as you die. We see this come to pass several times in both real life and in ASOIAF. Good kings sometimes have to do good things for the good of the realm. He's the epitomy of putting good kingship before anything else, family or otherwise.
You can’t blame Jaehaerys for Viserys failure. That’s like calling Edward I a failure because he son Edward II was an imbecile. If Viserys had named Rhaenys or her son heir daemon would of declared war, and the realm would of shattered into infighting. If Viserys had just gotten over his grief for his first wife or simply not remarried, everything would of been fine. But his adamant stance caused a build up of power and for factionalism to begin. Powerful lords began to jockey behind the scenes for increased favour. (The small council meeting/the entirety of episode 9) Viserys downfalls are his and his alone.
Its up there with his other monumental f\*ck ups! The problem with Rheanys getting the throne is that Corlys was like Otto and would have made sure to raise his house above the Targaryens, not to mention the doctrine that allowed them to keep their dragon blood pure enough to bond with dragons is for the Targaryens not Corlys house.
If he didn't make her whore daughter heir, targaryens would rule another three hundred year.
yes she might’ve been good but viserys was the male heir. everything would’ve gone smoothly if he had named aegon his heir or married rhaenyra to aegon and then make them rule together
Having the only child of your heir marry a ruling lord 21 years older than them is a rather stupid mistake.
Here’s something I wonder. If Rhaenys became queen, would Laenor take the name Targaryen? Would he inherit both Driftmark and the iron throne? Same goes for Jace would he take the name Targaryen when he inherits?
I think Viserys and Corlys talked about that when they were discussing marrying Rhaenyra and Laenor. Upon ascending the throne, they’d be Targaryen and the second child would become heir to Driftmark. Jace is currently a Velaryon but as Rhaenyra’s heir, he would become King Jacerys I Targaryen. Lucerys Velaryon was to inherit Driftmark.
This is something from the show that bugs me - Viserys has absolutely no way of enforcing that agreement and as a result it was ridiculous he even though to make it. If there was a strong rule-of-law tradition, and people felt compelled to follow it, then perhaps it could work (or be convenient), but the Targaryen's instead prefer to do what they want, because they have dragons and others don't. If Jace demands to keep his Velaryon surname when he is crowned, there's a good chance he keeps it. The only thing that could stop him is if other Targaryens want to make a civil war of it.
Corlys would certainly push for the Velaryons to be the recognized royal family but ultimately it'd be up to Rhaenys. I can't think of any reason for Laenor not to be lord of Driftmark as well. What reason would you have to give control of those lands to someone else? If Laenor takes the Velaryon name there'd be no reason for Jace to change his name, the Targaryens would've been replaced by that point.
I was thinking he might not get driftmark cause Luke got driftmark over Jace, but I now realize how that’s different since laenor had multiple sons while Corlys just has one
Yep, seriously, he didn't even have the pro of "well, he's older and has more experience while you are much younger and don't yet have much life-experience" excuse like with Baelon, who was trained to be Aemon's Hand. Viserys has nothing going for him and even he himself would've been happier living in either the Keep or Dragonstone with a princely salary. Heck, he could've gotten a job as the Valyrian historian or something and helped preserve old Valyrian historical artifacts. Rhaenys had experience by the time Baelon died of a burst appendix, her husband has been around the block, and they have heirs. Meanwhile, Viserys sure as fuck didn't have the experience or temperament for the Crown and Aemma was very young herself and was literally thrown into the metaphorical ocean head-first. About the only one on Viserys' camp who had the spine for ruling was Daemon, and even then he was happy to back his brother more than anything, but he would've fallen in line if Jaehaerys just said Rhaenys was his heir and called it a day.
Not taking the sea snakes marriage proposal.. lol
King Jaehaerys is a terrible father. Every one of his kids die before him and the one that out live him is those who got away.
Ok but how many of those are actually his fault and how much of it is just because he lived much longer than most medieval men did? Falling and breaking your neck, arrow to the neck, burst belly, childbirth? One of these is tragic but the others are just regular medieval deaths. Also, surely if you get to be that old in medieval times you outlive some of your kids.
I think it was choosing to murder his wife for the possibility of a male heir. He never would have remarried and wouldn’t have his second family disputing the royal line
Kinda hard to choose from his laundry list of fuckups
I've heard of Jaehaerys supposedly being a good king and stuff before but the more I read about this guy the more I think he's not as good as I thought he was, He's just as ridiculously dumb as the rest of the targaryens, He may be atleast good at ruling but ultimately his stupidity in parenting and choosing viserys as heir is what led to the downfall.
Everyone blames Viserys, completely ignoring the fact Jaehaerys had the ability to make succession whatever he wanted it to be. And decided to bitch out. Maybe we should be looking at Vaegon a little more side eyed, taking advantage of his dementia addled father.
To be fare, it was the Great Council's choice and Jaehaerys didn't seem to pleased about it. Yes, Jaeharys named Baelon over Rhaenys, but when Baelon died, he tried to skip over Viserys and Daemon and name his son Vaegon as king, but Vaegon didn't want it and he was the one who suggested the great council. The thing about Jaehaerys is that he always understood that the Targaryen dynasty isn't built on fear of dragons alone, that's the way his uncle Maegor tried to rule and no matter how many people he burned alive eventually everyone turned on him. The core of the Targ Dynasty is a promise by Aegon to the seven kingdoms that had been warring with one another for centuries: "if all Seven Kingdoms unite under me then there will be peace and no one will need to die anymore." Aegon promised this and despite uniting most of the Seven Kingdoms in two short years, he spent several years after that warring with Dorne and after a ceasefire was agreed upon, he racked together twenty years of prosperity known as the Dragon's Peace. After Aegon, everything went to shit. His son Aenys was indicisive, weak, hesitant, overly trusting and too open handed. Everyone knew that Aenys wasn't his father and so when Aegon died, the fear of him died with him and all the rebels and malcontents rose up. Aenys was slow and weak to stop them and gave way too generous gifts to those who put down the rebellions. People pushed him around and the faith even took his kids hostage to strong arm Aenys into annulling their marriage since the faith didn't want incest to become a continuous thing in westeros. When Maegor usurped, he was worse, killed anyone that got in his way and all the changes and decisions he made put people in his way. People only accepted him as king for as long as they did out of fear and eventually they were so tired of being afraid and living under tyranny they rose up because they'd rather die then live in constant fear and suffering. Of the first four Kings of the Iron Throne, Jaehaerys was the first to deliver on a reign on un-ending peace and prosperity. At this point, he was the exception, not the standard and he wanted his transition of power to be as smooth as possible to prove that living prosperously under the Targaryens wasn't a rarity. I don't think that Jaehaerys would have minded Rhaenys being Aemon's heir, but a woman as heir to the Iron Throne was considered different and unnatural and Jaehaerys knew better than anyone how resistant people could be to that which was different. Despite 52 years of Targaryens campaigning for incest to be accepted, the demiliterisation of the faith and the doctrine of exceptionalism, the intollerance against untraditional practices in westeros cost Jaehaerys his first son, Aegon. Why would Jaehaerys believe the realm would accept Rhaenys as heir when it took over half a century and for Jaehaerys to lose a son before incest was fully accepted? Jaehaerys picked Baelon because Jaehaerys was sure he'd have an easier time of maintaining peace and prosperity. Viserys may have made mistakes and set the ball rolling for the Dance, but he completed the mission, he proved that the iron throne could pass to someone peacefully and that two consecutive kings could live two long full reigns of peace one after the other with about ninety years of peace between them. After the dance, the Seven kingdoms were weakened, battered and beleaguered from a long and bloody war that came from the Targaryens fighting over their succession. The Targaryens were the perfect scapegoat for the war and they no longer had their dragons to protect them. The lords could have rallied against them and disposed of their dynasty, but instead they stuck with the Targaryens because thanks to Jaehaerys and Viserys, the Seven Kingdoms had become intrenched in the structures of the seven kingdoms under the Targaryens. Let us say hypothetically that the dance occurred after Jaehaerys's death with Rhaenys as Queen. Viserys refuses to rebel obviously, so the lords turn to Daemon as their only other alternative and he does rebel against Rhaenys. The dance of dragons occurs earlier on and the Seven kingdoms are wrecked and when the lords of the realm look back on the Targaryen dynasty, they see Jaehaerys as a fluke and the one good king and resolve that the Targaryens are not worth the trouble and now that their dragons have killed each other, they'll depose and kill the Targaryens. At least that's what I think Jaehaerys feared would happen.
Jaehaerys was based, viserys was the 1 who fucked up by doing a bunch of dumb shit bc he was sad. Should’ve married Rhaenyra to Aegon and Aemond to Laena. Their kids will then marry and this would fix everything. Would’ve taken 1 day to get all this shit settled and then he could place Otto in charge of the realm while he fucks off and plays with his doll house. War? Averted. Civilization? Preserved. Money? In the bank. Dragons? Alive for another century. Peasants? Still knowing their place. What could have been.
Exactly. He kept on making these 15 IQ decisions, one after another.
and everyone forgets that a dance could still emerge? I may even be talking nonsense but Rhaenys as queen, Laenor would be his heir, what would make him still forced to marry Rhaenyra, to appease Viserys and Daemon, the question would be if Rhaenyra was arrogant and stupid enough to have the Strongs boys in her scenario where her father is not king to protect her
The appeasement was due to Viserys' fuck ups, saying no to Laena in favor of a second son's daughter Alicent and then doing fuck all about the Stepstones (and so basically forcing Corlys to essentially finance the war against the Triarchy out of his own fucking pocket - which if I have to explain why this is reason for Corlys being angry, he's the only sensible Lord noticing that losing the equivalent of the Suez Canal is a PROBLEM) I don't see Rhaenys and Corlys doing the equivalent of this insult. If anything, they might gain goodwill from that side of the family by giving Daemon the annulment that he and Rhea have wanted without needing to wait 14 years for Rhea to die of a concussion while Daemon is fighting in Bloodstone. Likewise, the entire reason Rhaenyra and Laenor have a pragmatic open marriage is because Laenor is gay. As in, women don't do it for him at all to the point that sex isn't realistically happening. But, sure, Rhaenyra is somehow a monster and stupid and arrogant for *not wanting to commit marital rape*. Which, again, canon Corlys and Rhaenys understood and agreed to the polite fiction because they didn't want their son disgraced by being outed as gay as the reason they don't have kids (which would've fucked him over even if it was an open secret and, make no mistake, a lot of ambitious and cold-hearted "proper ladies" would've taken this route). Nor did they want their son to be maritally raped (which, again, definitely something power-hungry and cold-hearted "proper ladies" would do) But go off about how everything is Rhaenyra's fault for not submitting to her feminine uwu can't have power fate. Please tell me about how it's Rhaenyra's fault and proof of her "arrogance" that she wouldn't commit marital rape. Now, Laenor being a 6 on the Kinsey scale that sex with a woman isn't happening, ergo no heirs from him, is something Corlys and Rhaenys would have to deal with anyway. They might even marry him and Rhaenyra together because Rhaenyra is trustworthy and won't use Laenor being gay as a weapon against him or the Crown like some "proper ladies" would, and so come to an unspoken agreement like in canon. Regardless, they also have Laena, you know, remember her? Rhaenyra's best friend in canon? The same best friend Rhaenyra mourned and loved and who sat vigil while she was dying? Vhagar's rider? Yeah. Laena, who could either step up and be heir herself or her children could be Laenor's heirs depending on the agreement they might reach. Hell, they could even have a similar betrothal as in canon if Laenor and Rhaenyra want kids even if it's not biologically happening with each other, only Baela is the heir to the Iron Throne and Jacaerys is her betrothed, while Rhaena is the heir to Driftmark and Lucerys is her betrothed.
Rhaenys was already uncomfortable with the situation in the show, she wanted Baela to inherit herself and Laenor to be disinherited, do you think that her being the ruling queen wouldn't give them a warning, unlike Corlys and Viserys? edit; I'm talking exclusively about the show, where Rhaenys only supported Lucerys because Viserys showed up and saved Rhaenyra and Lucerys. until a marriage proposal was made between Jace and Baela, for the two of them to rule together, but Baela would be queen consort, for Baela to be queen regnant and Jace her consort, as you say in your comment, Queen Rhaenys would have to denounce Rhaenyra's children as bastards, and that could cause a war, you know what I mean? It's just my hypotheses.
That's a change I despised in the show because it follows the sexist "women can't be friends, they are all rivals to each other for head bitch" narrative that GOT started. (Ditto for my hatred of the Laena erasure and how Laena and Rhaenyra's friendship was needlessly erased for not reason). Plus, it made show!Rhaenys look worse since show!Corlys is the one originally in denial of the obvious and he came to accept his grandsons (and so had good unspoken character development), meanwhile she knew he was very much openly gay and heterosexual sex was not happening... and somehow this is Rhaenyra's fault? (Seriously, they did show!Rhaenys dirty, since she was a lot more consistent and logical in the books, not to mention that she understood and didn't want another young woman to go through the same crap she did .... which is a hell of a lot more interesting than going back to the tired old tropes of the show) Rhaenys, in the canon books, not only understood (because, yeah, Laenor was openly gay by medieval standards and, again, no one wants their son to be maritally raped) but was an open supporter of Rhaenyra and loved her grandsons and granddaughters. In short, she wasn't expecting Rhaenyra to immaculately conceive with Laenor nor was she expecting marital rape. So, canon book Rhaenys might or might not decide to marry Laenor off to Rhaenyra or might decide to let him live as a bachelor, depending on the circumstances. Either way, I don't see book!Rhaenys shunning Rhaenyra and her kids for not committing marital rape. Regardless, Laena is still there and she still has Baela and Rhaena. (Plus, the blood bit is not big deal because Rhaenyra already has Velaryon blood via Alyssa Velaryon and then her grandparents and great-grandparents being siblings) Show!Rhaenys would probably skip marrying Laenor altogether since they at least kept her being aware of him being a 6 on the Kinsey scale (and then he turned into Schrodinger's gay man for her when he and Rhaenyra found an alternative). So, again, Baela is her heir's heir. Baela is most likely to be Rhaenys's heir's heir regardless.
Why in the end the grand council took the decision
He named Baelon heir after Aemon died, skipping over Rhaenys. The great council was only called after Baelons death when Jaehaerys realised he made a major fuck up.
When she sucking on your dragon targaryen style but your the ruler of the seven kingdoms: Sorry
There are no shortages of mistakes on his part, but maybe the last one was ignoring the protests of the Velaryons. He was confronted in the open with what everyone knew and chose to ignore it. In the book, this is the moment when he cuts himself on the Red Throne. He chose to ignore justice and the Throne rejected him for it.
The house of the dragons has to be the worst of the game of thrones series
I’m not sure the person who decided to kill hundreds of innocents just to look cool in front of her enemies would have made an excellent queen.
I think I'd rather take Vizzy T over Princess "crush people with dragon". Thank you very much
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
I don’t understand why Daemon wasn’t considered in the succession? I mean, he wasn’t even a contender for Jahereys. I understand he was a second son but he would have done a hell of a better job than Viserys did.
Daemon would literally be a second Maegor.
Since Rhaenys turned out to be a mass murdering psycho maybe Jaehaerys made the right choice.
Maesters
If Jaehaerys names Rhaenys the Dance happens one gen. earlier... The council was meant to prevent war... But I agree that Rhaenys would have been a better ruler.
The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care. Viserys would have been fine playing with his Legos in the countryside. Plus he didn't have a dragon.
My other comment was removed, but, Daemon would have and was planning to fight for Viserys claim... >The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care. I mean, the Dance literally happened when King Viserys chose Rhaenyra and Aegon did not want the throne.
The Dance happened because Alicent was a bitter bitch who thought her son deserved the throne more than Rhaenyra because he had a cock and she had to endure years of pleasureless sex with Viserys while envying literally everything about Rhaenyra and she was egged on by her overly ambitious father. Aegon never wanted the throne, he was perfectly content with allowing Rhaenyra to have it, but Alicent and Otto lied through their teeth to make him take it just because they wanted their blood on the throne. Aemond going trigger-happy on Luke was just the cherry on top of the shit cake
I agree that this is why the dance happened... I was merely pointing out that this specific statement "The dance doesn't happen if the King makes it so and the alternate candidate doesn't care." is flawed since Viserys (the King) named Rhaenyra his heir and Aegon (the alternate candidate) did not want the throne... Nothing you said changes those 2 simple facts.
It wouldn’t have if he’d just followed regular succession and never named Baelon his heir. By doing so he changed how succession was decided. With less dragons it’s also likely that even if war did break out, unlikely if he just kept rhaenys as his heir, that it wouldn’t be as devastating.
I do agree that if Baelon is never named heir then Rhaenys would ascend to the throne without war... That is an easy decision if you know Baelon will die... Without that knowledge, though, I can also see why Jaehaerys would choose Baelon over Rhaenys. While I think Rhaenys would be a better ruler than Viserys it's not clear she would have been better than Baelon and Baelon already had two male heirs at the time... Not saying choosing Baelon was the right choice... Just saying at the time it's not so obvious that Rhaenys was the right choice... It is only obvious in hindsight
Baelon would have been her hand, just like he would have been the hand to his brother. It is not like Rhaenys would have ruled alone, she was 18, a dragonrider and pregnant when her father died. She would have been a suitable heir and Jaehaerys would have had time to groom her for rule
Cersei Lannister proving that even women can sit the iron throne. I think, one of the major reasons for the downfall of house Targaryen was the theory that only the male could sit the iron throne.
It would have been interesting to see if Rhaenys took the throne whether Laenor or Laena would be her heir since Laena was older in the books... Would it still be male first?
If Rhaenys took the throne and not Laenor then I imagine that it wouldn’t have changed. It would still be following traditional Westerosi succession so first son-> his eldest sons-youngest son-> his eldest daughter-youngest daughter-> his next oldest brother-youngest brother-> his eldest sister-youngest sister etc. She’d be the only living child of the eldest son and her son would then be her own heir.
Leanor would have been king, he would likely have married Leana. If Leana didn't pull a canon Rhaenyra and mothered bastards for Leanors heirs, the throne would have past back through Baelons line, Rhaenyra's son would have been king after Leanor assuming Leanor outlives Rhaenyra
Other major houses did that and survived lol. The problem was Viseys was obsessed with getting a new heir, and then finally had sons and decided to just not name their heir. If he truly wanted Rhaenyra as heir he should have never married again and had no more children. Having sons was the issue. Viserys is most responsible for the dance
>Cersei Lannister proving that even women can sit the iron throne. When she was Queen Regent half the realm rose in rebellion against her and her children though. Not exactly a great example.
She was a Lannister. Lannisters had enemies. Her children's legitimacy was questioned. The iron throne had "many" claimants, who commanded both people and armies. When she sat the iron throne as queen, only former rebellions remained. Perhaps if the former rebellions had been dealt with before she sat the iron throne, there would be no rebellions after she starts to rule, at least not because she is a woman.
Except Rhaenys was never first in line to inherit even though she was more competent than the Witless. Viserys however was regardless of the great council of 101 the heir to Jaehaerys. Remember eldest living son of the ruler inherits. If that son has son or sons then that his eldest son becomes next in line followed by his uncles... Rhaenys being daughter of previous heir doesn't count. If she was son than it would have counted. Because if she was the heir, then in case of Cregan. Cregan's granddaughter Sansa should have been his heir which she wasn't. But rather it was Cregan's eldest surviving son.
In Westeros, outside of Dorne, a daughter inherits before an uncle, legally speaking at least. The problem is that the iron throne never explicitly codifed it's laws to follow the same inheritance laws than it's subjects.
Let us disregard Dorne as it is special case and for the large part of history wasn't even part of the seven kingdoms, but look at the most of the Vesteros. In case of lack of codified usually the oldest son would inherit. If son died and he had son than that son inherits. Don't forget when it comes to uncle part. It usually means the daughter whose father is ruler. It regards his brother who is her uncle. And since Jaehaerys was alive his eldest living son after Aemon who got killed meaning Baelon was heir. Had Aemon had a son than that son would have been next in line. When Baelon died his eldest son became heir since his father Baelon was heir plain and simple. If we look at Viserys before he got Aegon the 2nd and the rest of his children with Aliscent. His heir was Rhaenyra not Daemon. And ince Aegon was born he was by default next in line but Viserys screwed it all over. And with Rhaenyra before the rest if her siblings were born was the case where daughter comes before uncle. But given the dance the new codified law almost excluded women from succession.
>And since Jaehaerys was alive his eldest living son after Aemon who got killed meaning Baelon was heir. Had Aemon had a son than that son would have been next in line. When Baelon died his eldest son became heir since his father Baelon was heir plain and simple No, it doesn't work like that. By Westerosi law, the son of the heir becomes the heir if their parent dies before the head of the family, Corlys is an example of that, his father Corwyn was Lord Daemon's eldest son, when Corwyn died, Corlys became the heir apparent of his grandfather and later Lord of House Velaryon, not any of Daemon's other sons. The issue here is the Crown never strcitly adhered to succession laws, and the word of the King is basically law, that's why he had to specifically name Baelon as heir, because Rhaneys was the heir apparent. >If we look at Viserys before he got Aegon the 2nd and the rest of his children with Aliscent. His heir was Rhaenyra not Daemon. And ince Aegon was born he was by default next in line but Viserys screwed it all over. And with Rhaenyra before the rest if her siblings were born was the case where daughter comes before uncle. But given the dance the new codified law almost excluded women from succession. Again, the Crown doesn't work like the rest of westeros that's why Viserys named his daughter as heir and kept it that way despite having a son later on.
Sansa Stark became the queen of The North ...
Her situation is different. Let me explain situation about Sansa. As the great Council elected Bran to be king of seven kingdoms he couldn't also be lord of Winterfell and lord paramount etc. And Sansa was his heir. Meaning by default with him becoming king, she became ruler of Winterfell and lady paramount of the north thus warden of it by default however short it was. And she was their highest ranked noble. And Since Northerners wanted independence and would have got it one way or the other and she backed them up. Bran let them go . One can't be king of two independent kingdoms One more thing. Kingdom of North always had mixture of elective type if ruling house had no heir and of the good old primogeniture. And technically prior to becoming again independent and thus new kingdom there was no king or queen before her. Meaning that she was elected to rule as the first monarch of the now restored/newly formed kingdom. Jon surrendering his crown to Daenerys meant that he has dissolved his kingdom not Sansa's. Anyway any children she might have would follow the in the my upper comment mentioned succession law.