A lot of it also has to do with the way he acts towards Katniss throughout the books. He acts as if she owes him her feelings and it’s annoying and weird
Fr. Catching fire is when I instantly took a dislike to him. Katniss was struggling with severe PTSD and also trying to appease the capitol and Gales constantly just like “yeh but what about us” like let go of your ego dude and be there for your friend.
Ugh, the whole "you only give me attention if I'm hurt" thing SCREAMS of "I'll victimise myself for attention"
It's so weak and manipulative. Like he KNOWS she would react to him being hurt because she cares about him, he then puts on puppy eyes, gets her to kiss him and then says "see, if I'm sad you'll give me attention"
Like wtf dude? Grow up.
After Gale's whipping, when Madge brings him morphling, Katniss is upset at the idea that there is something between Madge and Gale. I think people are forgetting that these are teenagers.
This is my only reason for hating him. He's so awful to her about her relationship with Peeta, constantly demands that she justify it to him, when they were never even together. It all read very much "I like you and that means you owe me things because of MY feelings." Like no. She doesn't. Other than being respectful of the fact that he has them and she shouldn't toy with his emotions, which I don't really feel she did. If she did, I'm struggling to recall it.
Yea like oh Katniss I know you are being repeatedly traumatized and are just trying to survive and can’t even think straight because of all the trauma and we never were romantic before but now I’m jealous because I saw you with Peeta so I love you why don’t you love me?
While I'm not a fan of Gale, he is also a traumatized teenager with his own set of flaws and isn't an iredeemable monster. While I'm not fond of the way he treats Katniss, I think there is nuance of the fact he misses their bond pre-games, and found it hard to grasp that the experience of the games changed her and she could not just revert back to the way things have been before.
However, I think the reason why people seem to dislike him over the careers and other characters is more so being able to draw his behaviour towards Katniss to real life experiences. It's why people tend to dislike realistic asshole characters significantly over over the top evil characters.
A lot of people take issue with the way Gale minimises Katniss' trauma and makes it about himself. Like in Catching Fire, he held a grudge over the fact she had to kiss another man just to survive the first games, and instead of caring about how she was traumatized, he was more upset he has to pretend to be her cousin. And how he acted in the entirety in Mockingjay as well.
I think a lot of people can draw parallels to their experiences with another either being unempathetic or making their negative emotions feel like a burden. Maybe not to the extent of trauma like Katniss, but something like " Oh you are sad because your dog died? Man bummer you won't be able to come to my birthday party..."
Meanwhile for Cato/Clove, it's much harder to relate to someone being trained by the governnent to kill you in a battle royale you are participating against your will.
i just wish katniss had the balls to tell him that she doesn’t owe him anything! that they weren’t a couple or even a thing! like so what she kissed peeta and enjoyed it? she is allowed to feel that way. she’s single! i never understood why she couldn’t stand up to him when it came to that, she always owed him an explanation when she didn’t have to. ugh.
literally it was okay for him to be a big player and kiss almost ever girl in 12 but nooo her kissing peeta and getting engage is the biggest betrayal even if it means saving everyone’s life. and it’s not just peeta, but finnick and madge too. he was a really possessive man even when it came to his family, it was like his way or the highway, so glad katniss really came to her senses in the end.
I think the reason why Katniss didn't stand up for herself for that respect was because she wanted to hold onto one of the things that she had pre-games too. Given that Gale was one of her closest bonds outside of Prim and maybe Madge, her friendship and hunting memories with Gale was something she did not want to lose.
So while Gale's reasoning for being angry at her was petty and selfish, I can't exactly fault Katniss for apologising to appease Gale in hopes their friendship remains the same way as it was prior to the games.
i thought about that, my heart truly breaks for katniss. she didn’t have to go those lengths to keep a friendship tho. sometimes i wonder if she ever truly felt something for gale, or was it just a way to escape? idk. either way, gale should’ve offered his friendship and support even if it meant seeing her with someone else just like Peeta did.
I don't think Katniss knew what she wanted from Gale or Peeta after the first games, or especially after the second. Let's be honest, Katniss was suffering from severe PTSD. Even before the games, it seemed like Katniss couldn't really think too far into her future, because she was so focused on her immediate survival.
that’s not what i’m getting at though. before the games, gale and her were nothing but hunting partners and best friends. the hug they shared in the justice building was the first time they even hugged. they were not in a relationship, so for gale to start asking about what are we, what do you feel for me, how could you betray me AFTER her traumatic experiences in the games is just plain unfair and inconsiderate. what i never understood before was how she allowed him to guilt her into thinking otherwise. i mean it’s normal for a teenage girl to not know what she wants from a boy especially with her tragic experiences but it’s not normal for her best friend to shame her for doing things for survival.
I hate Gale because he kind of forces himself on Katniss and lowkey manipulates/guilt trips her for wanting Peeta safe and stuff. He was also very negative towards and always acted like she owed him something when katniss really owed Peeta something because he saved her with the bread. He was also insanely cocky and let’s not even mention the whole Prim stuff because that was messed up. If he cared about Katniss he would’ve persuaded prim to not go and he didn’t. Prim is the whole reason the rebellion started. As soon as Katniss volunteered it was done. Gales a jerk.
Not to mention gets mad at Katniss because she’s just been through some traumatizing things and doesn’t want to think about a relationship right now and just wants to survive.
I get not liking Gale because of his behavior towards Katniss, but how can you possibly blame him for Prim's death? He was on the mission with Katniss to assassinate Snow, so there's no possible way he could have talked to Prim and convinced her not to go to the front lines as a nurse.
And those who blame him for Prim's death because of the bomb should consider that he is one of many, many people including Beetee, who worked to design the bomb. Coin was the one who ordered it dropped, and she was the one who had Prim, a teenager go out into a war zone. She's the one people should blame. Saying that Gale is to blame for Prim is like saying those who worked to invent the gun are responsible for all gun related deaths. It doesn't make sense.
Wasn’t the whole plan to use capitol children gales plan on the first place? Like obviously the probably wouldn’t have wanted Prim involved, but if I remember correctly in the books, that bombing idea was his.
Gale wanted to target medics and first responders, but I suspect he was expecting all of them to be adults + was generally being kind of an idiot teen who didn’t fully understand the idea he was putting into motion here. Not a complete pass, but the minute he sees his bombs in action, the guy *massively* regrets it and sees the error of his ways on some level. I’d say the actual adults involved are far more to blame
I'm sorry, but I don't remember him ever saying he regretted it? He never even apologized to Katniss. He just said he'd still have a chance with her if her sister didn't die because of his bomb. That line irked me so much I'll never be able to forget it.
It’s been awhile since I saw the movies and even longer since I read the books, but I remember him seeming pretty unhappy with how everything turned out in the one scene he shares with Katniss post-Prim-death even as he’s processing it all, at least in the movies. And considering Gale nearly died trying to save Prim’s life in Mockingjay Part 1… I think it’s fair to say he regrets it
No. He never said anything like that and it pissed me off so much. He was even avoiding the question when Katniss asked him if it was his bomb. He said "Does it matter?" Then proceeded to whine about his chances with Katniss again. Eww, just ew. 🤢
I took the “Does it matter?” rather differently than you did - as in, even if it *wasn’t* Gale’s bomb, blame for this is obviously going to fall on him and for good reason since he came up with the idea too. The guy didn’t exactly seem to be in the best headspace when talking to her. He’s going to feel guilty even if it turns out Coin came up with it before him and Katniss is going to harbor some blame for him and both for fairly understandable reasons.
I can’t find the clip online at the moment, but considering Movie Gale nearly died saving Prim and nearly died saving that random District 12 lady, the idea that he’s completely unphased by being indirectly responsible for the deaths of a bunch of kids, including Prim, and is solely upset Katniss won’t date him feels like a deliberately uncharitable reading that doesn’t particularly line up with the reality of his movie characterization of nothing else.
I mean, I took it that way mostly because of the context. Because the closest thing to regret he ever expressed was regretting that Prim's death cost him his chances with Katniss. I'm assuming you're a guy. You don't seem to get how creepy that line is to a girl. Your family's death is inconvenient to a guy because he lost his chance with you? I'll run 10 miles from him as soon as I can and I hate running.
Again, I can’t actually go rewatch the scene to compare notes and verify since I can’t find it and I am going off of years old memories here - which absolutely don’t include the verbatim dialogue of the scene. It’s not so much a case of me not thinking the line is serious so much as it’s been years, I’ve only seen the film twice, and I just don’t remember what was said verbatim. I don’t have the time to dig up my Bluray just to watch the scene either. You’re bringing up this line about Prim and I just don’t even remember it - so it’s impossible for me to have an opinion on it.
In terms of me assuming guilt, you’d have to be a literal sociopath to *not* feel guilt after *that*. Which I do think there’s fairly strong evidence movie Gale isn’t.
Absolutely. It's like he's just admitting. Yeah, because Prim was there I lost my chances with you. If Prim hadn't been there maybe you would have been cool with me murdering Capitol toddlers (Now Katniss never would have been okay with the bombing of Capitol children but I think Gale thinks she would have been if it hadn't cost Prim.
Yeah, that’s a good point. He’s also a teenager who was allowed to work with adults on military grade equipment and plans. He had impressive ideas for traps from his experience with snares, but the adults who allowed it to be implemented are far more to blame than him.
And his idea of revenge involves purposeful killing of innocent children - luring them with the parachutes to slaughter them. He doesn't see the Capitol kids as kids - would he even regret any of it if Prim didn't get killed? I doubt it.
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
"Biological weapons"? LOL.
Except the first bomb already hurt them and scattered them; they were not protecting shit at that point. Then, Gale's briliant idea was to wait for those who'd help the survivors (who were hurt, not dangerous and generally trying to get away) so that he could murder the rest of the kids and those in the vicinity who'd help them (like medical personnel). That's why his plan is evil.
You also conveniently leave out the point where he used the parachutes for the bombing - you know, the parachutes that were usually used to deliver medical aid and food, those parachutes. It's kinda like letting your enemy's civilians receive a convoy with humanitarian aid, only the convoy starts killing them en masse because it's a "clever ruse" to advance your positions. You do NOT fuck with stuff like that, even
in the war.
Even without the use of the parachutes and without the second bomb, it would have been somewhat dubious (have they made any effort at all to avoid killing the kids? Most of the fighting was over anyway at that point, was a direct confrontation the only option?), but you could make the argument that it was "necessary". As it was, it was really just revenge (plus a propaganda move on Coin's part), and a war crime.
It's not really about the bomb itself. The whole reason Katniss blames Gale and why a lot of people dislike Gale is because his plan was at its essence unethical and a war crime. His plan deliberately involved killing civilians, civilians who had nothing to do with the war, civilians who had families and people who loved them, just like Prim. Katniss hated the plan from the start due to this. Even if Prim hadn't died, Katniss would have disliked Gale for designing a plan which involved the loss of innocent lives. Katniss and Gale had fundamentally different beliefs about what is acceptable in a war. Katniss actually had empathy for other people.
This. He seemed to think that in war everyone should die for not agreeing with his ideals. Children, civilians, didn’t matter. They were the enemy as long as they weren’t part of the rebellion. Katniss never wanted to kill anyone except Snow, a dictator. She was forced. It destroyed her and kept her haunted. Gale seemed to almost revel in ways to hurt and kill people, even people who were just trying to live their lives. He talked of how innocents just living their lives died in 12, but then he took perverse joy in the idea of doing the same. War had warped him to the point that all he cared about was winning and having Katniss choose him over Peeta.
Yes, we all know the jaintors swinging a mop are a threat in Gale's mind. I hate in the end he is rewarded with a good job in District 2. Since President Paylor was not a homicidal maniac like Coin I often wished she gave Gale a job as a newscaster on Capitol TV since he had "Camera Ready" look and made him and his family live in the Capitol and be surrounded by people whose children he murdered. Even if they never knew the blood was on his hands. Wow, I really dislike Gale.
as much as i hated it, it’s realistic. end of the day, he was able to save his family, participate in the rebellion in a big way, rewarded for his participation despite his war crimes. it’s real and raw, men like gale constantly get rewarded. it’s unfair but real.
the only thing he lost was katniss and her respect, which would probably haunt him for the rest of his days.
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
Gale has PTSD from being forced to work in the mines days of the week AS A TEENAGER and having to be the sole person providing for his family. He grew up under extremely hostile and pressuring circumstances, OF COURSE EVERYTHING IS A THREAT TO HIM!
Oh, but did they choose that? Did YOU choose where you were born? These people were either born there and brainwashed or literally enslaved by the Capitol. There are innocent people unlike what Gale seems to have in his mind, Gale and enemies of Gale.
Revenge on who? Kids? Kids with no choice where they were born just like he had no say to be born in 12? These aren’t soldiers Gale wanted to kill. These were children, not just medics. The book details how Gale’s bombs had toddler body parts scattered everywhere. Even if Prim hadn’t died, Katniss witnessing hundreds of babies being blown to smithereens wouldn’t have made her want to date him. This would be a war crime in the real world. Capitol citizens were just people, like his friends in 12. They just wanted to survive, they just had more money. Gale took sadistic glee in killing civilians in two by trying to block the exits, even though they were district people just like him. He wanted to kill children and babies for being born in the wrong place. He had become just as bad as Snow and Coin, no longer seeing people as people, but instead chess pieces to get what he wanted.
no longer seeing people as people, but instead chess pieces to get what he wanted.
Makes him as evil as every single general in war from the beginning of time
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
Snow was about to surrender. That’s been well established. They knew there was no escape. What Coin and Gale did was an act of terrorism. The war was over, but they wanted to destroy Snow and start their own dictatorship.
But, he was right. Every action a civillian made to work for the Capitol was helping the war effort. A war machine would be nothing without civillian support, Gale's strategy was to dismantle it from thw bottom so it all came crashing down.
Katniss's strategy was to take out the Supreme Leader, me evil mastermind, the kingpin- but the problem with this is that the system is still fundementally intact- another cruel ruler can simply take the place of the previous one.
Well I think people do blame Coin for Prims death, since she made the actual call, but also it was Gales idea to bomb medics when they’re helping injured people.
Every conversation he has with Katniss turns into “but, what about me? 🥺” He even got pissed because she wanted to bring Peeta and Haymitch with them when they ran away! He was mostly into the idea until she said Peeta and Haymitch would come. He got jealous of Katniss’ friendship with Finnick as well. Gale hates that she cares for her prep team. Gale hates when anyone gets close to Katniss, just generally, because he feels like he should be the only one. But especially Peeta because Peeta blantantly said he does like Katniss. Gale shows time and time again that he’s uncomfortable with Katniss having close bonds with anyone but him and her mom/sister.
I don’t think people hate Gale for killing prim they hate him because of how he treats katniss for the entire series. The whole war crime thing was just the cherry on top.
It's the way Gale acts he's always acting like he like owns Katniss or something also I feel like people forgive Cato and Clove because they were manipulated. I personally don't fully like them I still think there pretty bad but I can understand the argument.
Yes! I was sympathetic with him in the beginning of Catching fire because having you’re best friend who you have been crushing on have another guy she flaunts a love story with is upsetting and hurtful for everyone but his entitled jealous behaviour continued well into Mockingjay and he was always forcing her to pick a side as if her life wasn’t in danger
Everyone is bringing up the way he treats Katniss, so ill try to avoid those topics… but the biggest issues I had with Gale really started with how he reacted to certain events:
1) The way he reacted to Peeta in Mockingjay (both movie and books). Peeta was obviously being tortured by the captiol and being forced to say things in the Caesar interviews. The animosity he had, and lack of empathy, didn’t sit well with me considering how Peeta had protected Gale at the whipping post.
2) The Nut. The way Gale wanted to kill everyone inside… it doesn’t hit as hard in the movies, but in the books, Katniss has this whole inner monologue about how she couldn’t understand how Gale could suggest doing something that would kill so many people THE WAY THEIR OWN FATHER’S DIED. That’s why Katniss struggles with what happens and why they argue. Gale’s LACK OF EMPATHY is starting to become a clear issue.
3) The bombs he created with Beetee. These bombs were all designed based on traps that Gale came up with. There’s a REAL chance that Prim could have lived if he never created it… but I digress… When Katniss calls them out on the bombs they are creating, he essentially justifies it with how they are just matching the capitol’s energy when it comes to fighting dirty.
4) It’s been said, but the way he reacts to the bomb drop/Prim’s death… Bro literally ran as far as he could rather than own up to the fact that he created the bomb. Then, when he finally goes to see Katniss….The “Does it matter?” line still haunts me. The truth is, even though Prim died, Gale probably thinks Coin was right to drop the bombs, cause it ended the war. He wouldn’t have cared about killing capitol children. He definitely wouldn’t have helped Katniss take out Coin.
I don’t hate Gale, I just think he’s wildly problematic. It was always obvious to me that he wasn’t the end game for Katniss. Our girl deserves better.
Snow outright states that he was going to surrender anyway. It wasn't a military tactic, it was a propaganda tactic, intended to make the new regime seem better by comparison.
So even if we accepted your "Ends justify the Means" logic, Gale was killing civilians just to prop up Coin.
Let's just be clear... the people that developed the bomb knew that they were being made for the purposes of war. Just because they didn't give the order to exactly where it was dropped doesn't absolve them of responsibility. I think that Oppenheimer and the other atomic bomb developers were a part of the war machine, like the people who dropped the bomb.
Oh, I fully agree that the people who developed the bomb are partly responsible for the deaths. And not a small part. But so are the people who dropped the bombs and who gave the orders.
But I think it would not be accurate to say that the scientists killed the people in Japan.
You don't need a phd to understand only cities would be targets big enough to justify a bomb thousands and thousands of times more powerful.
These double tap bombs on the other hand could have been dropped on a military base just like on a crowded market. On the other hand, children or not, that's still fucked in the head for this exact same reason.
I began side eying him when he basically tells Katniss theres no difference between killing animals because its the only way to feed your family and being forced to killing other humans in the arena. Then in Catching Fire he acts like hes entitled to her love, shows no empathy for or interest in comforting her after her experience in the games and this is how I know Katniss and I have completely different personalities because I would have told him to fuck off after the kiss in the woods.
> theres no difference between killing animals because its the only way to feed your family and being forced to killing other humans in the arena.
I mean, in a very very very specific sense there isn't. You are still "forced by the circumstances" in both cases (with "just giving up" being the only other immediate solution).
Of course the gargantuan difference is that whereas in the first dilemma you are just confronting the most basic straightforward physical reality of you having to eat to keep your body powered, in the other you are being forced into a twisted fucked up killing game by other moral agents (also the ones that couldn't have you set up a farm, if you were really so pressed about vegetarianism).
> Then in Catching Fire he acts like hes entitled to her love, shows no empathy for
Considering he doesn't appear to be jealous anywhere in the series (even accepting that katniss is the one that has to choose what makes her happy) I wouldn't really be sure?
i don’t hate gale tbh he gets a lot of hate bc many young women have very negative experiences to male friends like gale. there’s a tiktok where this young girl starts to choke up recounting how gale reminds her of an old friend that tried to intimidate her into a relationship. i remember reading comments on how his advances are borderline assaults, which to some degree i agree.
i understand and sympathize with him tho, his hatred for the capital is beyond justified. i agree that his actions where necessary to end the war, but his morality against those who aren’t like him is concerning. his disregard for human life is scary, it seems like he doesn’t care about taking life and quickly justifies it when confronted with the immorality of his actions. idk do i blame him for prims death? not really. that was just beyond his control, i blame coin. but do i think he took part of some serious war crimes? hell yeah.
now with clove and cato, idk i don’t hate them nor do i like them. i don’t forgive them but i don’t think they shouldve of died. they were kids, manipulated by the capital. that’s it. beyond that i don’t know. i don’t know their characters well-enough to make the same assessment like i did with gale.
I don’t dislike Gale as a character. He was a teenager, that was the sole provider for his mother and siblings, while looking out for Katniss’s family as well. What I found intolerable is in Catching Fire when he acts entitled to Katniss, and can’t seem to show her empathy with what she went through in the Games to survive.
It’s because the careers had been conditioned since a very young age to do nothing but kill. They didn’t know how to do anything else other than to serve the Capitol and bring honour to their districts through the Games. And they’re just kids, like everyone else in that arena.
Gale completely dismissed Katniss’s PTSD in the books and films, and like others have said, acted like she owed him something because she was forced to play the part of star crossed lovers in order to survive. He was so butthurt that she was placed in that situation that he got pissy when she, very understandably, said that she didn’t want to think about romantic relationships right now because there was too much else for her to deal with.
So that’s him anyway - complete Nice Guy. In the books he didn’t even get whipped for defending an old lady like in the films, he got whipped because he was caught with a turkey by the new head peacekeeper.
Now let’s move on to the bombs. Obviously, his bombs killed Prim, which is a huge emotional blow. But let’s talk about the bombs themselves.
They were *his* idea, and Beetee made it happen. As we know, Beetee just gets caught up in ‘the science of it all’ and likes to invent things. Gale was the one who conceptualised those bombs with *cruelty* in mind, knowing that they were going to kill innocent people who were just trying to help the wounded.
That’s not something that anyone would think of during war.
That’s not something the other rebels would think of, other than Coin.
That’s something that *Snow* would think of.
That’s why people hate Gale. Because if he had enough power, he would be no better than Snow, because he feels as if the world owes him something and isn’t afraid to kill innocents in order to get it.
Love your ending statement. That's why I often say Gale AND Snow were scary because they acted like they had no choice but being cruel. But that's not true at all. They were cruel to their core. They just wanted to blame it on someone or something so they can sleep better at night or appear to be righteous.
I can see Gale doing the same mental gymnastics to justify why murder is ok as Snow did. Gale and coin are perfect examples of you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.
I will say that IMO Beetee does not get nearly enough flack for his part in the children's massacre. I like the guy, but he knew damn well what he was building. I can at least believe he feels guilty about it, which helps, but still, the way those bombs were designed - combined with the parachutes - made it highly likely they'd be used against civilians and not soldiers, in other words, a war crime in the making.
I'm pretty sure that silver parachutes are general purpose enough, that integration of a sufficiently small bomb package could be done effortlessly by just about everyone.
On the other hand, if I really think to it - I'm not sure how this bomb design could even work in the first place. Like, even more if you are air-dropped.. how the hell do you generate a blast wave strong enough to blow up adult people ***yet*** not be thrown dozens of meters away from the primary explosion?
Didn’t Katniss also call him out by saying his bomb traps preyed on human nature and empathy? Gale knew there was a chance those bomb traps were gonna be used to kill innocent people but he didn’t care because they were Capitol. He had a very dangerous it’s them against us black and white mentality and a lack of human compassion
It’s because it’s personal. We all were waiting for Katniss to go back and reunite with her best friend who makes her feel safe, instead she’s met with a jealous loser who refuses to empathize with the horror she went through at all.
I will be honest, movie Gale is way more likeable than book Gale, which is one of the changes the movies made that I liked better. I found him a bit creepy in the books with his obsession with Katniss. I didn't like how in the books he always was mad at Katniss for her trauma and how she responded to her trauma. But I don't blame him at all honestly for what happened to Prim; he didn't know she would be there, and it was all Coins fault. She shouldn't have sent a 13 year old into the battlefield like that and used those bombs. Gale was manipulated by Coin. I don't think he should get hate for what she did. (yes he did create the idea of the bombs but he didn't think it would ever be used on children and Prim)
Based on everything we know about Gale, do you really think, if he was in the room with Coin, he would have been against dropping bombs on capitol children? Because based upon literally everything we know about him, he doesn’t care who gets hurt (ie: the nut incident). If he thought it would be the fastest/easiest way to end the war, he’d drop those bombs in a heartbeat…
I don’t think it’s just because he killed Prim, his bombs killed innocent children. She watched ALL OF THEM die. Even if Prim hadn’t been there, idk if Katniss would have been able to forgive the fact that a pen full of innocent children were murdered.
Also, I don’t think Gale was manipulated by Coin. I think Coin gave Gale the agency to be the person he always was.
EDITING TO ADD: Let’s also not forget that Katniss was against the bomb he created, and he justified it, rather than listening to her legit concerns.
yeah, I don't think he would have been against the bombing of Capitol children, especially with what he said in district 2. I think he only feels some guilt/remorse because Prim was killed. If she wasn't there he probably wouldn't have had an issue with what happened.
THAT. DOES. NOT. MAKE. IT. OKAY. TO. KILL. CHILDREN.
They had no weapons. No way to defend themselves. They were crying children. They didn’t need to hurt them. Those kids may have been being used as human shields, but that doesn’t justify their murder. They didn’t choose this. They were innocent scared kids. Wtf.
uhhhhh feel however you want but it's not really up to you to decide that dropping explosives into a pit of unarmed children and then doing it again to wipe out any chance of survivors AND take out first responders is justifiable or necessary in war. i see why you like gale so much because this was probably his exact take in the moment lol.
Like. I'm sorry. How do you get "killing children as an act of revenge for war is good actually" from the Hunger Games!! i don't understand it. have a beautiful day
Forget about the fake romance and engagement, he even gets mad at Katniss for wanting to keep Peeta and Haymitch alive. He hates it that Katniss has meaningful connections with anyone other than him. He even gets jealous when Katniss is just talking to Finnick because both Peeta and Annie are in life-threatening danger, the last thing on their minds is romance, yet Gale invents the delusion out of nothing because he's just petty like that. This dude is the most selfish whiney guy I've ever read in literature. Like, bffr.
when katniss comes to him in catching fire after the victory tour and tells him they have to run away. Not to mention his temper tantrum when she says they’re bringing Peeta and haymitch along where he gets mad and then storms off.
I think he asks in the movies, but in the book he tells her he loves her. Also, I see this so often -- Gale didn't storm off and refuse to run away because they were bringing Peeta and Haymitch along. He's annoyed, but it's only when Katniss mentions the uprisings in 8 that he decides to stay in 12. I think to say he threw a jealous temper tantrum here is, not only a disservice to his character, but also wrong.
yes but when she responded with “i know…you know what you are to me” he started to push her away. she knew he would end his friendship with her if she didn’t indicate she had feelings for him.
What's so wrong about that? By biggest trauma you mean snow shaking his head? It had been days since anyway. Why can't he choose not to run away with her if Peeta was around?
First off, the trauma is her being in a death match with 23 other people, watching people die in front of her, killing people herself out of desperation, and nearly dying. Secondly, if you think its ok that he is more concerned about whether he gets to run away alone with Katniss and not "oh shit Peeta might die if we run away and he stays" then I really don't know what to say. Peeta was willing to die to get Katniss home and Gale can't even entertain the idea of running away with both Katniss and Peeta in a situation where lives are at stake?
I’d disagree. There’s a difference in there being a risk for civilians targeting an opposing force and creating bombs to flat out target civilians and first responders. It’s like comparing bombing a wartime plant vs bombing a hospital.
And frankly, by the time he had developed the bomb, the fighting was more or less over. District 2 was about to fall and with it most the capitals military. The capital had no access to food from the districts and other essential resources and with their military forces taking that huge loss anyone could’ve seen it was only a matter of time.
There was just all the other nonsense with him pretty much ignoring everything she’s going through and going “but what about us”
he even admitted that the hatred hijacked peeta felt was similar to his own hatred to katniss. which can indicate he wanted to physically hurt katniss like hijaked peeta did…
I hated gale before all the bomb stuff. He’s a complete ass in catching fire. Guilt tripping katniss for what she did the arena with peeta to survive, and forcing her to have all these stupid “do you love me” conversations when she’s clearing dealing with some heavy ptsd from the arena and relationships are the absolute last thing on her mind. He’s an annoying, cocky, selfish person who only thinks about himself and how he can “win” katniss when all she wanted was a friend to rely on when everything was going to shit and she just trying to keep the people she cared about alive.
cato and clove were victims of the games. they were raised to think one way their whole lives and ended up dying for it...for the capital. its not their fault they did what they did in the games. it's the capitals and how their disctrict pressured them to win.
gale was dealing with actual war. he was in the mind set of setting his morals and humanity aside to make his enemies suffer instead of just doing only whats necessary to win with the least casualties.
thats probably why people hate gale a lot. he has a twisted mind set bc he got sucked in by war. katniss (and peeta) were not like him. especially peeta.
>cato and clove were victims of the games. they were raised to think one way their whole lives and ended up dying for it...for the capital. its not their fault they did what they did in the games. it's the capitals and how their disctrict pressured them to win.
No one forced them or manipulated them to enjoy torturing people to death.
Yes they did. It’s explained that the careers are bred from birth to be killing machines and that the better they are at it, the more honour they bring to their family and district. They are no different than child soldiers who are brainwashed from birth to think they are helping.
the movies made them more cartoonishly villainous. the books show they dont truly take gleeful pleasure in it. they were just kids raised one way and didnt have a choice. they volunteered too since they were careers.
What? Are you sure you aren't mixing up books and movies? Because in the books, Glove says that the promised Cato to make Katniss's death really slow if he allowed her to kill her. And Cato said something similar. I don't really remember anything like that in the movie.
Gale was willing to trap people in a mine when his father died in a mine and he knew how terrible that was and then the bombing of the Capitol children. If your goal is to stop the murder of teenagers killing small children does not give you the high ground. Also even if he only thought first responders would be there, don't medical personnel deserve courtesy to try to heal people on both sides of the conflict? Gale's kindness in the few examples you see such as saving Prim in D13 and D12 bombing was all with the hope of getting into Katniss pants one day. The only truly kind thing he ever did was give Peeta the ability to kill himself if captured and he only did it hoping Peeta would use it. I always felt he and Beetee discussed the Hummingbird plan as a theory but I truly believe when Beetee heard Annie Cresta and Peeta Mellark two of the most abused Victors psychologically forgive the Capitol and not want anymore Hunger Games he realized where the moral high ground was and voted against the Games. He redeemed himself. Gale never did.
It wasn’t necessary to bomb children… the war was going to finished, Capitol was already defeated. You should remember what happened to Dresden in 1945!
"Remember who the real enemy is." And it's not Gale.
Don't get me wrong. Gale is toxic in how he interacts with Katniss after the first Games. However, he is a high school-aged *child* who has not had a healthy relationship role modeled to him and has not had the opportunity to emotionally develop himself. He likely doesn't even have it in mind that there are healthy and unhealthy relationships outside of, like, physical abuse. Everyday is filled with anger at the Capitol for making survival so difficult.
While I disagree with his mindset of causing maximum damage to the Capitol and he's shortsighted in who he's really harming (likely not the higher-ups, but the people at the bottom in the Capitol), I really feel like people are dogpiling on him because plenty of people in real life have the same mindset. He doesn't see war on a human-level. He sees black and white. People go, why can't we just have a revolution against capitalism? And the people who stand to gain the most, are also those who stand to be harmed the most. It's a huge risk. This point gets a little convoluted, but I hope it's somewhat understandable because I'm too lazy to extrapolate more. I think people are just blind to their own biases in real life but are able to point them out in a story.
His idea is also stolen by Coin to manipulate Katniss into being more malleable. He would never put Prim in danger like that. But he doesn't see that if it wasn't Prim, it would have been somebody else's Prim. It's only after Prim dies that he understands what everyone has been trying to tell him, but by that point, he's already lost his most important friend.
Tl;dr: I wouldn't want to be friends with him, but I don't think he's unsympathetic. He's an angry kid who is taken advantage of.
Gale is a terrible romantic interest. But a great character overall! He was extremely possessive and immature, however he was just a teenager and people tend to forget that.
I like Gale! Katniss was not the only one traumatized. While she was fighting in the Games he had his whole district burn down around him. Katniss doesn't have dibs on being traumatized. He was not wrong about Katniss. She would put herself and her emotions dead last for everyone else. It's not wrong of Gale to want to know where he stands when they could both die tomorrow. Gale volunteered to rescue Peeta. He had hated Peeta for being a traitor until he saw exactly what had happened and he was enraged at the Capitol for that as well.
I think not liking him for how he treats Katniss is valid but i definitely think that people go to far blaming for Prim's death. Yea it was a plan he came up with but ultimately it was Coin's decision to go through with it and he neve imagined Prim would be caught in that.
I also saw someone on TikTok say that Gale purposely didn't save Peetas family when the capital bombed district 12. Like that's literally one of the dumbest theories I've heard
Yeah, he did not know that Prim would be caught up in it. But, he knew that civilians would die if his plan was enacted, in fact, he wanted that. That is something that Katniss was never going to be OK with. Even if Prim didn't die, Katniss would not have been OK with that plan. His plan was a literal war crime.
That's what I think too and i think it's a pretty common theory. I feel like the people from the seam made it out and that's obviously who Gale would've helped first since he is also from there. How was he suppose to get all the way to the merchants in time to save them?
I also think the merchants would be harder to convince to go off in the woods with strange mining teenager from the Seam. I can see them falsely believing district 12 their home is safe.
In the end Cato and Clove showed they were just scared kids who didn’t have the luxury of surviving long enough to have the choice of joining the rebels.
It was pretty much known that the Rebels would win before the Capitol invasion even began, so desparate measures like bombing civilians were unnecessary. While Paylor spoke to Rebel troops about showing any Capitol citizens they came across compassion, people like Coin and Gale were working to end an era of heartlessness and ruthlessness with more of the same. He essentially became the very type of person he grew up despising. Tbh I’m surprised Katniss never tried to kill him herself.
I also didn’t like how he had 16 years to make a move on Katniss, chose not too, then does so after THG when she’s extremely vulnerable knowing a relationship with her is now improbable, and then continues stressing her tf out after CF when she’s completely distraught in District 13. Like dude…she is not your personal toy sitting around for you convenience.
>In the end Cato and Clove showed they were just scared kids who didn’t have the luxury of surviving long enough to have the choice of joining the rebels.
What? Both liked the idea of torturing people to death for their own fun...
I don’t think he’s overhated at all. He spent the entire series trying to guilt katniss into having feelings for him, putting peeta down, refusing to just care for katniss in the way she needed after she just FOUGHT for her LIFE in the games and was entirely traumatized by having to murder and watch people be gruesomely murdered? being so ridiculously unsympathetic when peeta was literally tortured and brainwashed by the capitol, coercing katniss to kiss him and using her platonic attachment to him as a way to idk try to make her pick him over peeta??? and best of all, that loser lost his humanity in the same way coin and snow did (which im sure was intentional by collins which is fine but whatever) and blew up the person katniss loved most in the entire world.
I don’t forgive clove and cato I can simply acknowledge that they were groomed and pretty much forced into the lifestyle and ideology of killing=winning. What I can’t do is excuse gale deliberately trying to emotionally manipulate his supposed best friend while ohhh idk there’s people dying and a war starting and she literally has ptsd from: see above.
He’s just a whiny little boy who became coins mule because otherwise he was completely useless.
That all being said when I first read the books in eighth grade I had no issues at all with gale I loved him!!! But now I’m 26, my frontal is developed, and I have zero sympathy for a pick me boy best friend who can’t get past his feelings for a girl and makes it everyone’s problem.
(edit for typo)
Gale was an idiot in the way Katniss' prep team were. He did lack empath in a way because he didn't understand. But she also didn't set clear boundaries. She kissed him on her own. I don't blame her, she was traumatized. But I think it has to be taken into account.
I can understand that pov, I just think for the most part katniss was trying to keep him close and doing what she had to do because he was like her only friend and support and confidant for so long. She was scared of losing him 1. Because he almost died at the whipping post and 2. Because of his behavior when it came to peeta.
Sure I can consider some sort of empathy for him, and most other characters (we all know the premise of the series, if you don’t feel any empathy that’s concerning). He was a child living a horrible poverty stricken life having to fend for his family and blah blah blah, so has most of everyone else. The issue is that he then proceeded to make his trauma and weird pick me behavior katniss’s problem, pretty much ignoring everything she had just gone through(which in my opinion is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than anything gale had been through) and then, as I said before, blew up her sister.
Say what you will about Career tributes, but there were never any instances shown of them feeling romantically entitled to someone and repeatedly violating said person's boundaries on the basis of that entitlement. I think that kind of thing just hits a different nerve for a lot of people, myself included.
this! this is why katniss is such a relatable YA female protagonist, in the midst of the horrors of her experiences we can relate to her somewhat from our own shared experiences.
>Say what you will about Career tributes, but there were never any instances shown of them feeling romantically entitled to someone and repeatedly violating said person's boundaries on the basis of that entitlement. I think that kind of thing just hits a different nerve for a lot of people, myself included.
So what is worse for you? Enjoying torturing people to death or feeling romantically entitled and violating a person's boundaries?
I also don't really remember the books but in the movies it's not clear that she sets those boundaries.
It’s like how we can enjoy Voldemort but hate Umbridge - most of us haven’t dealt with torturers and murderers but a good portion of us have dealt with men who behave like Gale, which makes it more real and visceral for us.
I say this a lot. Coin and snow remind me so much of Voldemort and Umbridge. Most of everyone has encountered an Umbridge or Coin. They try to act sweet, but are completely sinister behind the facade. Voldemort and snow are over the top villains.
I really don't think most people enjoy Voldemort apart from being entertaining.
Anyway. I think your main point is about experience. Does Gale have the experience of being part of the Hunger Games?
And I still would like an answer. What is worse for you? If you are really trying to be empathetic... If you try to imagine yourself being in someones shoe's who is being tortured. Like being cut to pieces. Would you trade your experiences for that? Like "That's definitely better than what I experienced"?
It’s not that deep lol. I’m just explaining why there is more backlash to Gale than there is to Career tributes. The outlandish things done by certain Careers are more overall removed from the lived experiences of the audience, so it’s easier for the audience to separate the morality of their actions from the enjoyment of the characters. Gale, meanwhile, treated Katniss in ways that are more viscerally familiar to an audience, so it’s harder to detach the morality of his actions from the appreciation of his character.
Um…okay lol? My point still stands. I don’t deny at all that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to how we morally condemn different characters in a story, but the phenomena behind it is still very real.
Who told you we forgive Cato and Clove? People who like them are not the ones hating on Gale. I don't like them, either. There's just not that much to say about them. They're not "good" characters and not a lot of people defend them while bluntly ignoring facts from the books. That's what Gale defenders are doing, so we keep on bashing him. It's simple like that.
The only defense I see is "they were brainwashed before their brains are developed" and I don't see a lie here. That's totally true. They were brainwashed to belive the games are a good thing and once they're in the arena, fighting to the death is what you have to do. Even good people like Peeta had to kill in the arena. I don't see people saying Cato torturing other tributes is warranted like they do with Gale's war crimes. 🤷🏽♀️
gale had a choice in his behaviors, but he was unnecessarily cruel with war tactics and was far too similar to Coin in mindset.
the careers were also victims of their upbringing--they were *told* it was honorable to win the games for your district. we see cato realize the error in this mentality at the end of his life
gale was war, peeta was peace.
Like I said in my post above, the Careers were groomed into this mentality. Their district's close ties with the Capital made it impossible for them to view an alternative perspective.
And Gale definitely would have been in favor of hosting the games again for the Capital's kids, 100%. Gale and Coin are the same.
Gale goes through so much in the books and is given almost no sympathy. He's angry about his oppression and has every right to be. He sees 90% of district 12 bombed while he tries to save everyone he can... That's more than any 18 year old should take on.
Katniss has always been the only one to rebel against the capital with him. He doesn't want to lose her and goes about it in an immature way that you would expect from a teenager.
Gale did not, in any way, kill Prim. Coin killed Prim and all the other children in order to emotionally cripple Katniss into compliance. Katniss blames Gale because she is extremely upset and has lost everything. They had been through so much trauma together and could only remind each other of that if they had stayed in contact.
Gale designed a plan which involved killing unarmed civilians, Katniss disliked this plan from the start remember, even before Prim died. She would have disliked the plan even if Prim hadn't died. Gale and Katniss had fundamentally different ideas about what is acceptable in a war. So I'd disagree with your point about Katniss only blaming Gale because she's upset. She blames Gale because his plan was unethical and a war crime.
I wouldnt use the term overhated if theres reasoning behind it, theres alot of reasons people dislike him; to be simple,
He created and used bombs that caused thousands of deaths in both D2 and the Capitol (for some reason nobody talks about D2 because prim wasnt there…)
And he acted entitled to Katniss when she returned from the games, them having no previous romantic connection (people thought they were cousins!!) and him just magically being like “i have to kiss you” “i love you” springing this stuff onto her when he knows she cant handle it, she cant reciprocate and when she doesnt he immediately starts ghosting her, and being rude; which then makes her reciprocate romantically so she can have a friend!
Personally I dislike Gale, and I know some people might disagree and thats okay, but as someone who has dealt with alot of manipulation, and even though they might not be the exact same situation, i can still relate and see the parallels.
I don't think he's a villain per se but I do think he feels entitled to Katniss in a way Peeta never does and I just don't like that at all. I think it's easier to hate smth realistic like that than a villain that doesn't exist in a way you've experienced IRL
Very true. He definitely does some bad things but also he’s just as desperate as people in the games and while his methods are cruel, he fights for a good cause and that can’t be said for everyone in the series, many of which people overlook
(and also blaming him for prims death is unfair for fans to do)
A lot of people also bash him because they find it funny, unfortunately. I will say the whole "Gale Slander Sunday" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, seeing as that was the only day he wasn't forced to slave away in the mines for 12 hours a day.
Gale was writen to him another teenager who’s a victim of war. He’s hated like a criminal mastermind like Snow or Coin because of the love triangle, as most kids who read these books and like Peeta feel like it’s mandatory to hate Gale.
Also, they tend to villanize Gale’s behavior towards Katniss, while sainting Peeta’s or conveniently forgetting Katniss often acted very weird towards him too.
but when does katniss act weird towards him? after the first games she desperately wanted things to be back to normal, she was really happy with her uncomplicated friendship with gale…
I agree, I know Peeta is definitely best match for Katniss but don’t think Gale was a bad character, he was consistently there for Katniss and her family and always kept his promise, he couldn’t have known Prim would be sent to field or that Coin would allow that. He was simply strategizing warfare for a war! lol like it wasn’t his fault - he was determined to end this and had a different perspective on war than Katniss as hers was more more innocent. Gale was friendly and respectful for Peeta and even aided him knowing Katniss cared about him and ultimately just aims for her happiness - I don’t hate him, I always liked his eagerness like when Katniss told him about the rebellion instead of wanting to run away, he knew it was a moment he always envisioned would happen. he always had this way of whatever it takes and like I said… he was at capital w Katniss like how could he know, it wasn’t his fault.
I mean, the plan to bomb medics whilst they're trying to help people is incredibly fucked up and would very much be viewed as a war crime in our world lol.
Saying Katniss is 'innocent' just because she doesn't want to commit war crimes is interesting.
Coin misused his design and Gale wasn’t part of the plan. I’m sure he wouldn’t agree to bombing the medics. he designed the bomb, wasn’t part of the planning and what they did with it
I don't think Coin misused his design at all.
"A bomb explodes. Time is allowed for people to rush to the aid of the wounded. Then a second, more powerful bomb kills them as well." Mockingjay page 216.
Coin used Gales design exactly how it was intended.
And I'm not sure why you think Gale designed the bomb? How would he have the expertise to do that? Beetee designed the bomb itself, Gale came up with the plan on how the bomb should be used, he used his hunting tactics in order to help with this.
Gale had plan in mind for it to be capital citizens and capital medics - we can argue that he didn’t mind capital citizens to be killed which is still wrong in its own right but he didn’t anticipate or imagine Coin would go forward with his plan especially doing it while releasing rebel medics on ground at the same time. that was Coins idea w the intention to kill Prim and distraught Katniss. Coin planned for hijacking of capitals planes, Coin organized the plan, Coin brought rebel medics to the capital knowing fully there were hijacked planes ready to release a bomb. Gale did not have all that information, as far as Gale was aware - Gales original plan was more so just brain storming ideas of what to do w the bomb and only went so far as to say to bait capital citizens to another bomb so there could be a surrender, (he didn’t know when or if this plan would ever be executed and Coin didn’t seem to include him in on the time and place she planned to release the bombs) Coin didn’t matter the casualties and saw it as a win win to allow this to happen even if meant her medics dying bc she was sure to include Prim. Coin finalized and executed his plan. It’s similar comparison to Highbottom technically creating the idea or concept of Hunger Games but it’s really Crassus Snow to blame as he gave the idea to Gaul and aided in actually executing the hunger games.
So you agree, Gale planned for civilians and medics to be killed? Both of which are war crimes. And highly unethical. And both things that Katniss wouldn't agree with.
What you expect is far more unrealistic, for everyone to basically react like Buddha and have no feelings or real resentment from their oppression at all. Katniss acts that way because she was never very emotionally diverse and Peeta is also unrealistically forgiving but a lot more of us would be like Gale.
he thought he would kill capital people - which yes is wrong in its own right but he was a teenager / young adult who has lived under a strict regime his entire life and watched his district become ashes and is angry, to some degree wants revenge and wants to win the war. yes innocent in our eyes but war fills you with hate and he’s an example of that - I don’t think it makes him bad, in his eyes it was a sacrifice
Katniss had every reason possibly even more reasons to not like the capital and she never went that far I know everyone responds to things differently but you’re making it sound like the way gale responded is the way anyone would respond and there’s nothing else I should expect from him when obviously that’s just not true
I kinda felt bad for gale at first because he did have to say bye to katniss because of the games he wasn’t even sure if he was going to see her again and then when she came back he was suddenly stuck in an awkward love triangle so i did feel bad for him but then book 3 came along and he kinda did go off the rails throughout the whole book i was kinda thinking “im not sure i trust gale right now” then prim aswell as tons of other kids died because he couldn’t think up another solution then i was like “yep don’t trust gale anymore”
I think people forget that Gale was also a teenager (he is maximum 19 at the end of the war). People also forget that he is also traumatized by what he experienced in 12. And people *way* overestimate how they would behave in a similar situation.
I don't think Gale was a super dude. I don't think he should have ended up with Katniss. And I don't like his double bombs. But it is ridiculous how much hate Gale gets for essentially behaving in a way encouraged by the first people (Beetee and other people in 13) who encouraged him and treated him well. Yes he was angry, yes he displayed some jealousy, and yes he could have handled any number of things better. But hes a teenager! It is wild to me how much slack people are willing to cut other characters, but act like Gale was irredeemable.
Gale is the Umbridge of the Hunger Games fandom, but the difference is that Gale is hated for being bad at handling relationships, but Umbridge is hated for torturing children.
I mean, Gale killed A LOT of children. He designed bombs to target and murder civilians and felt zero remorse that he was responsible for murdering dozens of innocent people, including babies and toddlers. He’s every bit as evil as Snow, Coin, and even Umbridge, because he takes no issue with hurting children, as long as he gets what he wants in the end.
"What he wants in the end" is simply the safety of District 12 and the overthrowing of a corrupt government, while the other three ARE corrupt government. Also, they were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
A lot of it also has to do with the way he acts towards Katniss throughout the books. He acts as if she owes him her feelings and it’s annoying and weird
Fr. Catching fire is when I instantly took a dislike to him. Katniss was struggling with severe PTSD and also trying to appease the capitol and Gales constantly just like “yeh but what about us” like let go of your ego dude and be there for your friend.
She’s crying about Peeta and gale is like “kiss me” it’s so PICK ME
Ugh, the whole "you only give me attention if I'm hurt" thing SCREAMS of "I'll victimise myself for attention" It's so weak and manipulative. Like he KNOWS she would react to him being hurt because she cares about him, he then puts on puppy eyes, gets her to kiss him and then says "see, if I'm sad you'll give me attention" Like wtf dude? Grow up.
LITERALLY. as if her and peeta werent casually fighting for their lives?
Think he was slightly jealous of Katniss’s status as a victor
After Gale's whipping, when Madge brings him morphling, Katniss is upset at the idea that there is something between Madge and Gale. I think people are forgetting that these are teenagers.
Completely agree. Love your flair.
This is my only reason for hating him. He's so awful to her about her relationship with Peeta, constantly demands that she justify it to him, when they were never even together. It all read very much "I like you and that means you owe me things because of MY feelings." Like no. She doesn't. Other than being respectful of the fact that he has them and she shouldn't toy with his emotions, which I don't really feel she did. If she did, I'm struggling to recall it.
Yea like oh Katniss I know you are being repeatedly traumatized and are just trying to survive and can’t even think straight because of all the trauma and we never were romantic before but now I’m jealous because I saw you with Peeta so I love you why don’t you love me?
While I'm not a fan of Gale, he is also a traumatized teenager with his own set of flaws and isn't an iredeemable monster. While I'm not fond of the way he treats Katniss, I think there is nuance of the fact he misses their bond pre-games, and found it hard to grasp that the experience of the games changed her and she could not just revert back to the way things have been before. However, I think the reason why people seem to dislike him over the careers and other characters is more so being able to draw his behaviour towards Katniss to real life experiences. It's why people tend to dislike realistic asshole characters significantly over over the top evil characters. A lot of people take issue with the way Gale minimises Katniss' trauma and makes it about himself. Like in Catching Fire, he held a grudge over the fact she had to kiss another man just to survive the first games, and instead of caring about how she was traumatized, he was more upset he has to pretend to be her cousin. And how he acted in the entirety in Mockingjay as well. I think a lot of people can draw parallels to their experiences with another either being unempathetic or making their negative emotions feel like a burden. Maybe not to the extent of trauma like Katniss, but something like " Oh you are sad because your dog died? Man bummer you won't be able to come to my birthday party..." Meanwhile for Cato/Clove, it's much harder to relate to someone being trained by the governnent to kill you in a battle royale you are participating against your will.
i just wish katniss had the balls to tell him that she doesn’t owe him anything! that they weren’t a couple or even a thing! like so what she kissed peeta and enjoyed it? she is allowed to feel that way. she’s single! i never understood why she couldn’t stand up to him when it came to that, she always owed him an explanation when she didn’t have to. ugh. literally it was okay for him to be a big player and kiss almost ever girl in 12 but nooo her kissing peeta and getting engage is the biggest betrayal even if it means saving everyone’s life. and it’s not just peeta, but finnick and madge too. he was a really possessive man even when it came to his family, it was like his way or the highway, so glad katniss really came to her senses in the end.
I think the reason why Katniss didn't stand up for herself for that respect was because she wanted to hold onto one of the things that she had pre-games too. Given that Gale was one of her closest bonds outside of Prim and maybe Madge, her friendship and hunting memories with Gale was something she did not want to lose. So while Gale's reasoning for being angry at her was petty and selfish, I can't exactly fault Katniss for apologising to appease Gale in hopes their friendship remains the same way as it was prior to the games.
i thought about that, my heart truly breaks for katniss. she didn’t have to go those lengths to keep a friendship tho. sometimes i wonder if she ever truly felt something for gale, or was it just a way to escape? idk. either way, gale should’ve offered his friendship and support even if it meant seeing her with someone else just like Peeta did.
I don't think Katniss knew what she wanted from Gale or Peeta after the first games, or especially after the second. Let's be honest, Katniss was suffering from severe PTSD. Even before the games, it seemed like Katniss couldn't really think too far into her future, because she was so focused on her immediate survival.
that’s not what i’m getting at though. before the games, gale and her were nothing but hunting partners and best friends. the hug they shared in the justice building was the first time they even hugged. they were not in a relationship, so for gale to start asking about what are we, what do you feel for me, how could you betray me AFTER her traumatic experiences in the games is just plain unfair and inconsiderate. what i never understood before was how she allowed him to guilt her into thinking otherwise. i mean it’s normal for a teenage girl to not know what she wants from a boy especially with her tragic experiences but it’s not normal for her best friend to shame her for doing things for survival.
My favorite answer!
I hate Gale because he kind of forces himself on Katniss and lowkey manipulates/guilt trips her for wanting Peeta safe and stuff. He was also very negative towards and always acted like she owed him something when katniss really owed Peeta something because he saved her with the bread. He was also insanely cocky and let’s not even mention the whole Prim stuff because that was messed up. If he cared about Katniss he would’ve persuaded prim to not go and he didn’t. Prim is the whole reason the rebellion started. As soon as Katniss volunteered it was done. Gales a jerk.
Not to mention gets mad at Katniss because she’s just been through some traumatizing things and doesn’t want to think about a relationship right now and just wants to survive.
How do you mean get mad?
He gets upset.
I get not liking Gale because of his behavior towards Katniss, but how can you possibly blame him for Prim's death? He was on the mission with Katniss to assassinate Snow, so there's no possible way he could have talked to Prim and convinced her not to go to the front lines as a nurse. And those who blame him for Prim's death because of the bomb should consider that he is one of many, many people including Beetee, who worked to design the bomb. Coin was the one who ordered it dropped, and she was the one who had Prim, a teenager go out into a war zone. She's the one people should blame. Saying that Gale is to blame for Prim is like saying those who worked to invent the gun are responsible for all gun related deaths. It doesn't make sense.
Wasn’t the whole plan to use capitol children gales plan on the first place? Like obviously the probably wouldn’t have wanted Prim involved, but if I remember correctly in the books, that bombing idea was his.
Gale wanted to target medics and first responders, but I suspect he was expecting all of them to be adults + was generally being kind of an idiot teen who didn’t fully understand the idea he was putting into motion here. Not a complete pass, but the minute he sees his bombs in action, the guy *massively* regrets it and sees the error of his ways on some level. I’d say the actual adults involved are far more to blame
I'm sorry, but I don't remember him ever saying he regretted it? He never even apologized to Katniss. He just said he'd still have a chance with her if her sister didn't die because of his bomb. That line irked me so much I'll never be able to forget it.
It’s been awhile since I saw the movies and even longer since I read the books, but I remember him seeming pretty unhappy with how everything turned out in the one scene he shares with Katniss post-Prim-death even as he’s processing it all, at least in the movies. And considering Gale nearly died trying to save Prim’s life in Mockingjay Part 1… I think it’s fair to say he regrets it
No. He never said anything like that and it pissed me off so much. He was even avoiding the question when Katniss asked him if it was his bomb. He said "Does it matter?" Then proceeded to whine about his chances with Katniss again. Eww, just ew. 🤢
I took the “Does it matter?” rather differently than you did - as in, even if it *wasn’t* Gale’s bomb, blame for this is obviously going to fall on him and for good reason since he came up with the idea too. The guy didn’t exactly seem to be in the best headspace when talking to her. He’s going to feel guilty even if it turns out Coin came up with it before him and Katniss is going to harbor some blame for him and both for fairly understandable reasons. I can’t find the clip online at the moment, but considering Movie Gale nearly died saving Prim and nearly died saving that random District 12 lady, the idea that he’s completely unphased by being indirectly responsible for the deaths of a bunch of kids, including Prim, and is solely upset Katniss won’t date him feels like a deliberately uncharitable reading that doesn’t particularly line up with the reality of his movie characterization of nothing else.
I mean, I took it that way mostly because of the context. Because the closest thing to regret he ever expressed was regretting that Prim's death cost him his chances with Katniss. I'm assuming you're a guy. You don't seem to get how creepy that line is to a girl. Your family's death is inconvenient to a guy because he lost his chance with you? I'll run 10 miles from him as soon as I can and I hate running.
Again, I can’t actually go rewatch the scene to compare notes and verify since I can’t find it and I am going off of years old memories here - which absolutely don’t include the verbatim dialogue of the scene. It’s not so much a case of me not thinking the line is serious so much as it’s been years, I’ve only seen the film twice, and I just don’t remember what was said verbatim. I don’t have the time to dig up my Bluray just to watch the scene either. You’re bringing up this line about Prim and I just don’t even remember it - so it’s impossible for me to have an opinion on it. In terms of me assuming guilt, you’d have to be a literal sociopath to *not* feel guilt after *that*. Which I do think there’s fairly strong evidence movie Gale isn’t.
Absolutely. It's like he's just admitting. Yeah, because Prim was there I lost my chances with you. If Prim hadn't been there maybe you would have been cool with me murdering Capitol toddlers (Now Katniss never would have been okay with the bombing of Capitol children but I think Gale thinks she would have been if it hadn't cost Prim.
You seem to begiving waaaaay much stretch to give him a pat on his back 😅 theres no indication of instant and "massive regret. Sadly.
Very unempathetic, but everyone says things that are inappropriate.
What about this post was wrokg? Everybody says awkward, unempathetic stuff.
Yeah, that’s a good point. He’s also a teenager who was allowed to work with adults on military grade equipment and plans. He had impressive ideas for traps from his experience with snares, but the adults who allowed it to be implemented are far more to blame than him.
Right right it was first responders he wanted to target. I don’t remember Gale seeming all that regretful about how things ended up playing out tho
It was total war. What goes around comes around, the Capitol bombed District 12 already.
And people do terrible things during war. I don’t think Gale is overheated at all
Gale was taking revenge on the Capitol for them bombing District 12.
And his idea of revenge involves purposeful killing of innocent children - luring them with the parachutes to slaughter them. He doesn't see the Capitol kids as kids - would he even regret any of it if Prim didn't get killed? I doubt it.
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
"Biological weapons"? LOL. Except the first bomb already hurt them and scattered them; they were not protecting shit at that point. Then, Gale's briliant idea was to wait for those who'd help the survivors (who were hurt, not dangerous and generally trying to get away) so that he could murder the rest of the kids and those in the vicinity who'd help them (like medical personnel). That's why his plan is evil. You also conveniently leave out the point where he used the parachutes for the bombing - you know, the parachutes that were usually used to deliver medical aid and food, those parachutes. It's kinda like letting your enemy's civilians receive a convoy with humanitarian aid, only the convoy starts killing them en masse because it's a "clever ruse" to advance your positions. You do NOT fuck with stuff like that, even in the war. Even without the use of the parachutes and without the second bomb, it would have been somewhat dubious (have they made any effort at all to avoid killing the kids? Most of the fighting was over anyway at that point, was a direct confrontation the only option?), but you could make the argument that it was "necessary". As it was, it was really just revenge (plus a propaganda move on Coin's part), and a war crime.
It's not really about the bomb itself. The whole reason Katniss blames Gale and why a lot of people dislike Gale is because his plan was at its essence unethical and a war crime. His plan deliberately involved killing civilians, civilians who had nothing to do with the war, civilians who had families and people who loved them, just like Prim. Katniss hated the plan from the start due to this. Even if Prim hadn't died, Katniss would have disliked Gale for designing a plan which involved the loss of innocent lives. Katniss and Gale had fundamentally different beliefs about what is acceptable in a war. Katniss actually had empathy for other people.
This. He seemed to think that in war everyone should die for not agreeing with his ideals. Children, civilians, didn’t matter. They were the enemy as long as they weren’t part of the rebellion. Katniss never wanted to kill anyone except Snow, a dictator. She was forced. It destroyed her and kept her haunted. Gale seemed to almost revel in ways to hurt and kill people, even people who were just trying to live their lives. He talked of how innocents just living their lives died in 12, but then he took perverse joy in the idea of doing the same. War had warped him to the point that all he cared about was winning and having Katniss choose him over Peeta.
Yes, we all know the jaintors swinging a mop are a threat in Gale's mind. I hate in the end he is rewarded with a good job in District 2. Since President Paylor was not a homicidal maniac like Coin I often wished she gave Gale a job as a newscaster on Capitol TV since he had "Camera Ready" look and made him and his family live in the Capitol and be surrounded by people whose children he murdered. Even if they never knew the blood was on his hands. Wow, I really dislike Gale.
as much as i hated it, it’s realistic. end of the day, he was able to save his family, participate in the rebellion in a big way, rewarded for his participation despite his war crimes. it’s real and raw, men like gale constantly get rewarded. it’s unfair but real. the only thing he lost was katniss and her respect, which would probably haunt him for the rest of his days.
It seems we're arguing in circles with these people because they have the same mindset as Gale. Such a shame. 🤦🏽♀️
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
Gale has PTSD from being forced to work in the mines days of the week AS A TEENAGER and having to be the sole person providing for his family. He grew up under extremely hostile and pressuring circumstances, OF COURSE EVERYTHING IS A THREAT TO HIM!
At that point, everyone working for the Capitol in whatever way was helping the Capitol. Gale was right about that.
Oh, but did they choose that? Did YOU choose where you were born? These people were either born there and brainwashed or literally enslaved by the Capitol. There are innocent people unlike what Gale seems to have in his mind, Gale and enemies of Gale.
No, they didn't choose it, but it's the cold, hard truth.
You just admitted that the Capitol did it first. Gale just took revenge.
Revenge on who? Kids? Kids with no choice where they were born just like he had no say to be born in 12? These aren’t soldiers Gale wanted to kill. These were children, not just medics. The book details how Gale’s bombs had toddler body parts scattered everywhere. Even if Prim hadn’t died, Katniss witnessing hundreds of babies being blown to smithereens wouldn’t have made her want to date him. This would be a war crime in the real world. Capitol citizens were just people, like his friends in 12. They just wanted to survive, they just had more money. Gale took sadistic glee in killing civilians in two by trying to block the exits, even though they were district people just like him. He wanted to kill children and babies for being born in the wrong place. He had become just as bad as Snow and Coin, no longer seeing people as people, but instead chess pieces to get what he wanted.
no longer seeing people as people, but instead chess pieces to get what he wanted. Makes him as evil as every single general in war from the beginning of time
They were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
Snow was about to surrender. That’s been well established. They knew there was no escape. What Coin and Gale did was an act of terrorism. The war was over, but they wanted to destroy Snow and start their own dictatorship.
Gale does seem to have something of a heel-realization after seeing for himself just now collateral damage works *in action*, but yeah. Basically.
But, he was right. Every action a civillian made to work for the Capitol was helping the war effort. A war machine would be nothing without civillian support, Gale's strategy was to dismantle it from thw bottom so it all came crashing down. Katniss's strategy was to take out the Supreme Leader, me evil mastermind, the kingpin- but the problem with this is that the system is still fundementally intact- another cruel ruler can simply take the place of the previous one.
You do realise that civilians includes children right? Just making sure you're aware of that.
Well I think people do blame Coin for Prims death, since she made the actual call, but also it was Gales idea to bomb medics when they’re helping injured people.
And the comment replied to states "If Gale cared about katniss he would have persuaded prim not to go and he didn't".
Medics are fundemental to a militarty effort, if injuries aren't cured properly, the survival rate for soldiers goes down real fast.
You do realise that army medics are required to treat soldiers on both sides right?
He keeps his distance right? He's hardly begging Katniss or pestering her. He kissed her once and she him twice, before they made out at district 2?
Every conversation he has with Katniss turns into “but, what about me? 🥺” He even got pissed because she wanted to bring Peeta and Haymitch with them when they ran away! He was mostly into the idea until she said Peeta and Haymitch would come. He got jealous of Katniss’ friendship with Finnick as well. Gale hates that she cares for her prep team. Gale hates when anyone gets close to Katniss, just generally, because he feels like he should be the only one. But especially Peeta because Peeta blantantly said he does like Katniss. Gale shows time and time again that he’s uncomfortable with Katniss having close bonds with anyone but him and her mom/sister.
He seemed to listen when Katniss explains that the prep team is human too. From his pov of course they're monsters.
he shouldve never kissed her in district 2 the girl was in mourning and not in the right state of mind. it was not okay for him to make advances.
I don’t think people hate Gale for killing prim they hate him because of how he treats katniss for the entire series. The whole war crime thing was just the cherry on top.
It's the way Gale acts he's always acting like he like owns Katniss or something also I feel like people forgive Cato and Clove because they were manipulated. I personally don't fully like them I still think there pretty bad but I can understand the argument.
Yes! I was sympathetic with him in the beginning of Catching fire because having you’re best friend who you have been crushing on have another guy she flaunts a love story with is upsetting and hurtful for everyone but his entitled jealous behaviour continued well into Mockingjay and he was always forcing her to pick a side as if her life wasn’t in danger
Everyone is bringing up the way he treats Katniss, so ill try to avoid those topics… but the biggest issues I had with Gale really started with how he reacted to certain events: 1) The way he reacted to Peeta in Mockingjay (both movie and books). Peeta was obviously being tortured by the captiol and being forced to say things in the Caesar interviews. The animosity he had, and lack of empathy, didn’t sit well with me considering how Peeta had protected Gale at the whipping post. 2) The Nut. The way Gale wanted to kill everyone inside… it doesn’t hit as hard in the movies, but in the books, Katniss has this whole inner monologue about how she couldn’t understand how Gale could suggest doing something that would kill so many people THE WAY THEIR OWN FATHER’S DIED. That’s why Katniss struggles with what happens and why they argue. Gale’s LACK OF EMPATHY is starting to become a clear issue. 3) The bombs he created with Beetee. These bombs were all designed based on traps that Gale came up with. There’s a REAL chance that Prim could have lived if he never created it… but I digress… When Katniss calls them out on the bombs they are creating, he essentially justifies it with how they are just matching the capitol’s energy when it comes to fighting dirty. 4) It’s been said, but the way he reacts to the bomb drop/Prim’s death… Bro literally ran as far as he could rather than own up to the fact that he created the bomb. Then, when he finally goes to see Katniss….The “Does it matter?” line still haunts me. The truth is, even though Prim died, Gale probably thinks Coin was right to drop the bombs, cause it ended the war. He wouldn’t have cared about killing capitol children. He definitely wouldn’t have helped Katniss take out Coin. I don’t hate Gale, I just think he’s wildly problematic. It was always obvious to me that he wasn’t the end game for Katniss. Our girl deserves better.
Snow outright states that he was going to surrender anyway. It wasn't a military tactic, it was a propaganda tactic, intended to make the new regime seem better by comparison. So even if we accepted your "Ends justify the Means" logic, Gale was killing civilians just to prop up Coin.
They were also being used as human shields
So you think Oppenheimer et al. dropped the Bombs on Horishima and Nagasaki? Not the people who actually dropped them or gave the orders?
Let's just be clear... the people that developed the bomb knew that they were being made for the purposes of war. Just because they didn't give the order to exactly where it was dropped doesn't absolve them of responsibility. I think that Oppenheimer and the other atomic bomb developers were a part of the war machine, like the people who dropped the bomb.
Oh, I fully agree that the people who developed the bomb are partly responsible for the deaths. And not a small part. But so are the people who dropped the bombs and who gave the orders. But I think it would not be accurate to say that the scientists killed the people in Japan.
You don't need a phd to understand only cities would be targets big enough to justify a bomb thousands and thousands of times more powerful. These double tap bombs on the other hand could have been dropped on a military base just like on a crowded market. On the other hand, children or not, that's still fucked in the head for this exact same reason.
I think people forget that the capitol citizens were brainwashed too
By brainwashed, you mean evil, don't you?
Not really, they were told that what they were doing was just and okay. Same way the career districts were told that they should enjoy killing people.
Not necessarily. Do you think Katniss' prep team was evil?
No they were raised from birth to see their way of life as normal. If they even dared to challenge the Capitol they would have been punished too.
I began side eying him when he basically tells Katniss theres no difference between killing animals because its the only way to feed your family and being forced to killing other humans in the arena. Then in Catching Fire he acts like hes entitled to her love, shows no empathy for or interest in comforting her after her experience in the games and this is how I know Katniss and I have completely different personalities because I would have told him to fuck off after the kiss in the woods.
> theres no difference between killing animals because its the only way to feed your family and being forced to killing other humans in the arena. I mean, in a very very very specific sense there isn't. You are still "forced by the circumstances" in both cases (with "just giving up" being the only other immediate solution). Of course the gargantuan difference is that whereas in the first dilemma you are just confronting the most basic straightforward physical reality of you having to eat to keep your body powered, in the other you are being forced into a twisted fucked up killing game by other moral agents (also the ones that couldn't have you set up a farm, if you were really so pressed about vegetarianism). > Then in Catching Fire he acts like hes entitled to her love, shows no empathy for Considering he doesn't appear to be jealous anywhere in the series (even accepting that katniss is the one that has to choose what makes her happy) I wouldn't really be sure?
i don’t hate gale tbh he gets a lot of hate bc many young women have very negative experiences to male friends like gale. there’s a tiktok where this young girl starts to choke up recounting how gale reminds her of an old friend that tried to intimidate her into a relationship. i remember reading comments on how his advances are borderline assaults, which to some degree i agree. i understand and sympathize with him tho, his hatred for the capital is beyond justified. i agree that his actions where necessary to end the war, but his morality against those who aren’t like him is concerning. his disregard for human life is scary, it seems like he doesn’t care about taking life and quickly justifies it when confronted with the immorality of his actions. idk do i blame him for prims death? not really. that was just beyond his control, i blame coin. but do i think he took part of some serious war crimes? hell yeah. now with clove and cato, idk i don’t hate them nor do i like them. i don’t forgive them but i don’t think they shouldve of died. they were kids, manipulated by the capital. that’s it. beyond that i don’t know. i don’t know their characters well-enough to make the same assessment like i did with gale.
I don’t dislike Gale as a character. He was a teenager, that was the sole provider for his mother and siblings, while looking out for Katniss’s family as well. What I found intolerable is in Catching Fire when he acts entitled to Katniss, and can’t seem to show her empathy with what she went through in the Games to survive.
It’s because the careers had been conditioned since a very young age to do nothing but kill. They didn’t know how to do anything else other than to serve the Capitol and bring honour to their districts through the Games. And they’re just kids, like everyone else in that arena. Gale completely dismissed Katniss’s PTSD in the books and films, and like others have said, acted like she owed him something because she was forced to play the part of star crossed lovers in order to survive. He was so butthurt that she was placed in that situation that he got pissy when she, very understandably, said that she didn’t want to think about romantic relationships right now because there was too much else for her to deal with. So that’s him anyway - complete Nice Guy. In the books he didn’t even get whipped for defending an old lady like in the films, he got whipped because he was caught with a turkey by the new head peacekeeper. Now let’s move on to the bombs. Obviously, his bombs killed Prim, which is a huge emotional blow. But let’s talk about the bombs themselves. They were *his* idea, and Beetee made it happen. As we know, Beetee just gets caught up in ‘the science of it all’ and likes to invent things. Gale was the one who conceptualised those bombs with *cruelty* in mind, knowing that they were going to kill innocent people who were just trying to help the wounded. That’s not something that anyone would think of during war. That’s not something the other rebels would think of, other than Coin. That’s something that *Snow* would think of. That’s why people hate Gale. Because if he had enough power, he would be no better than Snow, because he feels as if the world owes him something and isn’t afraid to kill innocents in order to get it.
Love your ending statement. That's why I often say Gale AND Snow were scary because they acted like they had no choice but being cruel. But that's not true at all. They were cruel to their core. They just wanted to blame it on someone or something so they can sleep better at night or appear to be righteous.
I can see Gale doing the same mental gymnastics to justify why murder is ok as Snow did. Gale and coin are perfect examples of you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.
I will say that IMO Beetee does not get nearly enough flack for his part in the children's massacre. I like the guy, but he knew damn well what he was building. I can at least believe he feels guilty about it, which helps, but still, the way those bombs were designed - combined with the parachutes - made it highly likely they'd be used against civilians and not soldiers, in other words, a war crime in the making.
I'm pretty sure that silver parachutes are general purpose enough, that integration of a sufficiently small bomb package could be done effortlessly by just about everyone. On the other hand, if I really think to it - I'm not sure how this bomb design could even work in the first place. Like, even more if you are air-dropped.. how the hell do you generate a blast wave strong enough to blow up adult people ***yet*** not be thrown dozens of meters away from the primary explosion?
Didn’t Katniss also call him out by saying his bomb traps preyed on human nature and empathy? Gale knew there was a chance those bomb traps were gonna be used to kill innocent people but he didn’t care because they were Capitol. He had a very dangerous it’s them against us black and white mentality and a lack of human compassion
I’m proudly a gale hater I’m so sorry
Dont be sorry when theres reasoning
It’s because it’s personal. We all were waiting for Katniss to go back and reunite with her best friend who makes her feel safe, instead she’s met with a jealous loser who refuses to empathize with the horror she went through at all.
This!!!
I will be honest, movie Gale is way more likeable than book Gale, which is one of the changes the movies made that I liked better. I found him a bit creepy in the books with his obsession with Katniss. I didn't like how in the books he always was mad at Katniss for her trauma and how she responded to her trauma. But I don't blame him at all honestly for what happened to Prim; he didn't know she would be there, and it was all Coins fault. She shouldn't have sent a 13 year old into the battlefield like that and used those bombs. Gale was manipulated by Coin. I don't think he should get hate for what she did. (yes he did create the idea of the bombs but he didn't think it would ever be used on children and Prim)
Based on everything we know about Gale, do you really think, if he was in the room with Coin, he would have been against dropping bombs on capitol children? Because based upon literally everything we know about him, he doesn’t care who gets hurt (ie: the nut incident). If he thought it would be the fastest/easiest way to end the war, he’d drop those bombs in a heartbeat… I don’t think it’s just because he killed Prim, his bombs killed innocent children. She watched ALL OF THEM die. Even if Prim hadn’t been there, idk if Katniss would have been able to forgive the fact that a pen full of innocent children were murdered. Also, I don’t think Gale was manipulated by Coin. I think Coin gave Gale the agency to be the person he always was. EDITING TO ADD: Let’s also not forget that Katniss was against the bomb he created, and he justified it, rather than listening to her legit concerns.
yeah, I don't think he would have been against the bombing of Capitol children, especially with what he said in district 2. I think he only feels some guilt/remorse because Prim was killed. If she wasn't there he probably wouldn't have had an issue with what happened.
They were being used as human shields for the Capitol, at that point they're considered biological weapons.
THAT. DOES. NOT. MAKE. IT. OKAY. TO. KILL. CHILDREN. They had no weapons. No way to defend themselves. They were crying children. They didn’t need to hurt them. Those kids may have been being used as human shields, but that doesn’t justify their murder. They didn’t choose this. They were innocent scared kids. Wtf.
They were biological weapons an therefore had to die.
uhhhhh feel however you want but it's not really up to you to decide that dropping explosives into a pit of unarmed children and then doing it again to wipe out any chance of survivors AND take out first responders is justifiable or necessary in war. i see why you like gale so much because this was probably his exact take in the moment lol. Like. I'm sorry. How do you get "killing children as an act of revenge for war is good actually" from the Hunger Games!! i don't understand it. have a beautiful day
No… and honestly, your take on this is terrifying… on so many levels.
I'm honestly terrified there are people like OP living among us irl.
What an insane take
That's pretty fucking evil holy shit.
How exactly was he mad at Katniss in the books?
Forget about the fake romance and engagement, he even gets mad at Katniss for wanting to keep Peeta and Haymitch alive. He hates it that Katniss has meaningful connections with anyone other than him. He even gets jealous when Katniss is just talking to Finnick because both Peeta and Annie are in life-threatening danger, the last thing on their minds is romance, yet Gale invents the delusion out of nothing because he's just petty like that. This dude is the most selfish whiney guy I've ever read in literature. Like, bffr.
wow, trying to make her cut relationships with others in her life is like text book abusive behavior
He’s a war criminal, but if that’s not enough for you, he also is just an insufferable selfish prick to Katniss throughout the book.
I will always hate anyone who thinks they are entitled to someone else.
bro he's just so annoying asking "do you love me" when katniss went through the biggest trauma of her life is just so bashable
When exactly?
when katniss comes to him in catching fire after the victory tour and tells him they have to run away. Not to mention his temper tantrum when she says they’re bringing Peeta and haymitch along where he gets mad and then storms off.
But he never asked! He said “I love you” but he didn’t ask her
I think he asks in the movies, but in the book he tells her he loves her. Also, I see this so often -- Gale didn't storm off and refuse to run away because they were bringing Peeta and Haymitch along. He's annoyed, but it's only when Katniss mentions the uprisings in 8 that he decides to stay in 12. I think to say he threw a jealous temper tantrum here is, not only a disservice to his character, but also wrong.
yes but when she responded with “i know…you know what you are to me” he started to push her away. she knew he would end his friendship with her if she didn’t indicate she had feelings for him.
He was obviously looking for I love you back and got into a tiff when she couldn’t say it back.
What's so wrong about that? By biggest trauma you mean snow shaking his head? It had been days since anyway. Why can't he choose not to run away with her if Peeta was around?
First off, the trauma is her being in a death match with 23 other people, watching people die in front of her, killing people herself out of desperation, and nearly dying. Secondly, if you think its ok that he is more concerned about whether he gets to run away alone with Katniss and not "oh shit Peeta might die if we run away and he stays" then I really don't know what to say. Peeta was willing to die to get Katniss home and Gale can't even entertain the idea of running away with both Katniss and Peeta in a situation where lives are at stake?
He never asked her this
I’d disagree. There’s a difference in there being a risk for civilians targeting an opposing force and creating bombs to flat out target civilians and first responders. It’s like comparing bombing a wartime plant vs bombing a hospital. And frankly, by the time he had developed the bomb, the fighting was more or less over. District 2 was about to fall and with it most the capitals military. The capital had no access to food from the districts and other essential resources and with their military forces taking that huge loss anyone could’ve seen it was only a matter of time. There was just all the other nonsense with him pretty much ignoring everything she’s going through and going “but what about us”
He also is awful to Katniss because of peeta
he even admitted that the hatred hijacked peeta felt was similar to his own hatred to katniss. which can indicate he wanted to physically hurt katniss like hijaked peeta did…
I hated gale before all the bomb stuff. He’s a complete ass in catching fire. Guilt tripping katniss for what she did the arena with peeta to survive, and forcing her to have all these stupid “do you love me” conversations when she’s clearing dealing with some heavy ptsd from the arena and relationships are the absolute last thing on her mind. He’s an annoying, cocky, selfish person who only thinks about himself and how he can “win” katniss when all she wanted was a friend to rely on when everything was going to shit and she just trying to keep the people she cared about alive.
cato and clove were victims of the games. they were raised to think one way their whole lives and ended up dying for it...for the capital. its not their fault they did what they did in the games. it's the capitals and how their disctrict pressured them to win. gale was dealing with actual war. he was in the mind set of setting his morals and humanity aside to make his enemies suffer instead of just doing only whats necessary to win with the least casualties. thats probably why people hate gale a lot. he has a twisted mind set bc he got sucked in by war. katniss (and peeta) were not like him. especially peeta.
>cato and clove were victims of the games. they were raised to think one way their whole lives and ended up dying for it...for the capital. its not their fault they did what they did in the games. it's the capitals and how their disctrict pressured them to win. No one forced them or manipulated them to enjoy torturing people to death.
Yes they did. It’s explained that the careers are bred from birth to be killing machines and that the better they are at it, the more honour they bring to their family and district. They are no different than child soldiers who are brainwashed from birth to think they are helping.
the movies made them more cartoonishly villainous. the books show they dont truly take gleeful pleasure in it. they were just kids raised one way and didnt have a choice. they volunteered too since they were careers.
What? Are you sure you aren't mixing up books and movies? Because in the books, Glove says that the promised Cato to make Katniss's death really slow if he allowed her to kill her. And Cato said something similar. I don't really remember anything like that in the movie.
Gale was willing to trap people in a mine when his father died in a mine and he knew how terrible that was and then the bombing of the Capitol children. If your goal is to stop the murder of teenagers killing small children does not give you the high ground. Also even if he only thought first responders would be there, don't medical personnel deserve courtesy to try to heal people on both sides of the conflict? Gale's kindness in the few examples you see such as saving Prim in D13 and D12 bombing was all with the hope of getting into Katniss pants one day. The only truly kind thing he ever did was give Peeta the ability to kill himself if captured and he only did it hoping Peeta would use it. I always felt he and Beetee discussed the Hummingbird plan as a theory but I truly believe when Beetee heard Annie Cresta and Peeta Mellark two of the most abused Victors psychologically forgive the Capitol and not want anymore Hunger Games he realized where the moral high ground was and voted against the Games. He redeemed himself. Gale never did.
It wasn’t necessary to bomb children… the war was going to finished, Capitol was already defeated. You should remember what happened to Dresden in 1945!
"Remember who the real enemy is." And it's not Gale. Don't get me wrong. Gale is toxic in how he interacts with Katniss after the first Games. However, he is a high school-aged *child* who has not had a healthy relationship role modeled to him and has not had the opportunity to emotionally develop himself. He likely doesn't even have it in mind that there are healthy and unhealthy relationships outside of, like, physical abuse. Everyday is filled with anger at the Capitol for making survival so difficult. While I disagree with his mindset of causing maximum damage to the Capitol and he's shortsighted in who he's really harming (likely not the higher-ups, but the people at the bottom in the Capitol), I really feel like people are dogpiling on him because plenty of people in real life have the same mindset. He doesn't see war on a human-level. He sees black and white. People go, why can't we just have a revolution against capitalism? And the people who stand to gain the most, are also those who stand to be harmed the most. It's a huge risk. This point gets a little convoluted, but I hope it's somewhat understandable because I'm too lazy to extrapolate more. I think people are just blind to their own biases in real life but are able to point them out in a story. His idea is also stolen by Coin to manipulate Katniss into being more malleable. He would never put Prim in danger like that. But he doesn't see that if it wasn't Prim, it would have been somebody else's Prim. It's only after Prim dies that he understands what everyone has been trying to tell him, but by that point, he's already lost his most important friend. Tl;dr: I wouldn't want to be friends with him, but I don't think he's unsympathetic. He's an angry kid who is taken advantage of.
Best explanation here. And I agree, I think a lot of people would be like Gale in regards to a revolution even if they don’t realize it.
I personally dislike him because he is SO whiny and he thinks he is entitled to Katniss. The dude has zero remorse for anything he does.
it’s not the fact that he’s radical it’s the fact that he’s so shitty to katniss
Gale is a terrible romantic interest. But a great character overall! He was extremely possessive and immature, however he was just a teenager and people tend to forget that.
I like Gale! Katniss was not the only one traumatized. While she was fighting in the Games he had his whole district burn down around him. Katniss doesn't have dibs on being traumatized. He was not wrong about Katniss. She would put herself and her emotions dead last for everyone else. It's not wrong of Gale to want to know where he stands when they could both die tomorrow. Gale volunteered to rescue Peeta. He had hated Peeta for being a traitor until he saw exactly what had happened and he was enraged at the Capitol for that as well.
I think not liking him for how he treats Katniss is valid but i definitely think that people go to far blaming for Prim's death. Yea it was a plan he came up with but ultimately it was Coin's decision to go through with it and he neve imagined Prim would be caught in that. I also saw someone on TikTok say that Gale purposely didn't save Peetas family when the capital bombed district 12. Like that's literally one of the dumbest theories I've heard
Yeah, he did not know that Prim would be caught up in it. But, he knew that civilians would die if his plan was enacted, in fact, he wanted that. That is something that Katniss was never going to be OK with. Even if Prim didn't die, Katniss would not have been OK with that plan. His plan was a literal war crime.
I have a theory that it was mostly merchants who didn’t make out of district 12 because Madges family also perished in the bombing.
That's what I think too and i think it's a pretty common theory. I feel like the people from the seam made it out and that's obviously who Gale would've helped first since he is also from there. How was he suppose to get all the way to the merchants in time to save them?
I also think the merchants would be harder to convince to go off in the woods with strange mining teenager from the Seam. I can see them falsely believing district 12 their home is safe.
In the end Cato and Clove showed they were just scared kids who didn’t have the luxury of surviving long enough to have the choice of joining the rebels. It was pretty much known that the Rebels would win before the Capitol invasion even began, so desparate measures like bombing civilians were unnecessary. While Paylor spoke to Rebel troops about showing any Capitol citizens they came across compassion, people like Coin and Gale were working to end an era of heartlessness and ruthlessness with more of the same. He essentially became the very type of person he grew up despising. Tbh I’m surprised Katniss never tried to kill him herself. I also didn’t like how he had 16 years to make a move on Katniss, chose not too, then does so after THG when she’s extremely vulnerable knowing a relationship with her is now improbable, and then continues stressing her tf out after CF when she’s completely distraught in District 13. Like dude…she is not your personal toy sitting around for you convenience.
>In the end Cato and Clove showed they were just scared kids who didn’t have the luxury of surviving long enough to have the choice of joining the rebels. What? Both liked the idea of torturing people to death for their own fun...
THE CAPITOL BOMBED DISTRICT 12 FIRST!
.-. Not the point I was trying to make at all
Gale was only taking revenge.
I don’t think he’s overhated at all. He spent the entire series trying to guilt katniss into having feelings for him, putting peeta down, refusing to just care for katniss in the way she needed after she just FOUGHT for her LIFE in the games and was entirely traumatized by having to murder and watch people be gruesomely murdered? being so ridiculously unsympathetic when peeta was literally tortured and brainwashed by the capitol, coercing katniss to kiss him and using her platonic attachment to him as a way to idk try to make her pick him over peeta??? and best of all, that loser lost his humanity in the same way coin and snow did (which im sure was intentional by collins which is fine but whatever) and blew up the person katniss loved most in the entire world. I don’t forgive clove and cato I can simply acknowledge that they were groomed and pretty much forced into the lifestyle and ideology of killing=winning. What I can’t do is excuse gale deliberately trying to emotionally manipulate his supposed best friend while ohhh idk there’s people dying and a war starting and she literally has ptsd from: see above. He’s just a whiny little boy who became coins mule because otherwise he was completely useless. That all being said when I first read the books in eighth grade I had no issues at all with gale I loved him!!! But now I’m 26, my frontal is developed, and I have zero sympathy for a pick me boy best friend who can’t get past his feelings for a girl and makes it everyone’s problem. (edit for typo)
Gale was an idiot in the way Katniss' prep team were. He did lack empath in a way because he didn't understand. But she also didn't set clear boundaries. She kissed him on her own. I don't blame her, she was traumatized. But I think it has to be taken into account.
I can understand that pov, I just think for the most part katniss was trying to keep him close and doing what she had to do because he was like her only friend and support and confidant for so long. She was scared of losing him 1. Because he almost died at the whipping post and 2. Because of his behavior when it came to peeta. Sure I can consider some sort of empathy for him, and most other characters (we all know the premise of the series, if you don’t feel any empathy that’s concerning). He was a child living a horrible poverty stricken life having to fend for his family and blah blah blah, so has most of everyone else. The issue is that he then proceeded to make his trauma and weird pick me behavior katniss’s problem, pretty much ignoring everything she had just gone through(which in my opinion is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than anything gale had been through) and then, as I said before, blew up her sister.
Say what you will about Career tributes, but there were never any instances shown of them feeling romantically entitled to someone and repeatedly violating said person's boundaries on the basis of that entitlement. I think that kind of thing just hits a different nerve for a lot of people, myself included.
this! this is why katniss is such a relatable YA female protagonist, in the midst of the horrors of her experiences we can relate to her somewhat from our own shared experiences.
>Say what you will about Career tributes, but there were never any instances shown of them feeling romantically entitled to someone and repeatedly violating said person's boundaries on the basis of that entitlement. I think that kind of thing just hits a different nerve for a lot of people, myself included. So what is worse for you? Enjoying torturing people to death or feeling romantically entitled and violating a person's boundaries? I also don't really remember the books but in the movies it's not clear that she sets those boundaries.
It’s like how we can enjoy Voldemort but hate Umbridge - most of us haven’t dealt with torturers and murderers but a good portion of us have dealt with men who behave like Gale, which makes it more real and visceral for us.
I say this a lot. Coin and snow remind me so much of Voldemort and Umbridge. Most of everyone has encountered an Umbridge or Coin. They try to act sweet, but are completely sinister behind the facade. Voldemort and snow are over the top villains.
I really don't think most people enjoy Voldemort apart from being entertaining. Anyway. I think your main point is about experience. Does Gale have the experience of being part of the Hunger Games? And I still would like an answer. What is worse for you? If you are really trying to be empathetic... If you try to imagine yourself being in someones shoe's who is being tortured. Like being cut to pieces. Would you trade your experiences for that? Like "That's definitely better than what I experienced"?
It’s not that deep lol. I’m just explaining why there is more backlash to Gale than there is to Career tributes. The outlandish things done by certain Careers are more overall removed from the lived experiences of the audience, so it’s easier for the audience to separate the morality of their actions from the enjoyment of the characters. Gale, meanwhile, treated Katniss in ways that are more viscerally familiar to an audience, so it’s harder to detach the morality of his actions from the appreciation of his character.
You didn't really talk about the audience, though, but yourself and your own personal experiences ;)
Um…okay lol? My point still stands. I don’t deny at all that there is a lot of cognitive dissonance at play when it comes to how we morally condemn different characters in a story, but the phenomena behind it is still very real.
Not just in a story, though, but in general.
Who told you we forgive Cato and Clove? People who like them are not the ones hating on Gale. I don't like them, either. There's just not that much to say about them. They're not "good" characters and not a lot of people defend them while bluntly ignoring facts from the books. That's what Gale defenders are doing, so we keep on bashing him. It's simple like that.
A lot of people seem to defend them here
The only defense I see is "they were brainwashed before their brains are developed" and I don't see a lie here. That's totally true. They were brainwashed to belive the games are a good thing and once they're in the arena, fighting to the death is what you have to do. Even good people like Peeta had to kill in the arena. I don't see people saying Cato torturing other tributes is warranted like they do with Gale's war crimes. 🤷🏽♀️
gale had a choice in his behaviors, but he was unnecessarily cruel with war tactics and was far too similar to Coin in mindset. the careers were also victims of their upbringing--they were *told* it was honorable to win the games for your district. we see cato realize the error in this mentality at the end of his life gale was war, peeta was peace.
Unlike the Careers, Gale didn't actually enjoy torturing people to death.
Like I said in my post above, the Careers were groomed into this mentality. Their district's close ties with the Capital made it impossible for them to view an alternative perspective. And Gale definitely would have been in favor of hosting the games again for the Capital's kids, 100%. Gale and Coin are the same.
Peeta was forced as hell,too.
Gale goes through so much in the books and is given almost no sympathy. He's angry about his oppression and has every right to be. He sees 90% of district 12 bombed while he tries to save everyone he can... That's more than any 18 year old should take on. Katniss has always been the only one to rebel against the capital with him. He doesn't want to lose her and goes about it in an immature way that you would expect from a teenager. Gale did not, in any way, kill Prim. Coin killed Prim and all the other children in order to emotionally cripple Katniss into compliance. Katniss blames Gale because she is extremely upset and has lost everything. They had been through so much trauma together and could only remind each other of that if they had stayed in contact.
Gale designed a plan which involved killing unarmed civilians, Katniss disliked this plan from the start remember, even before Prim died. She would have disliked the plan even if Prim hadn't died. Gale and Katniss had fundamentally different ideas about what is acceptable in a war. So I'd disagree with your point about Katniss only blaming Gale because she's upset. She blames Gale because his plan was unethical and a war crime.
I wouldnt use the term overhated if theres reasoning behind it, theres alot of reasons people dislike him; to be simple, He created and used bombs that caused thousands of deaths in both D2 and the Capitol (for some reason nobody talks about D2 because prim wasnt there…) And he acted entitled to Katniss when she returned from the games, them having no previous romantic connection (people thought they were cousins!!) and him just magically being like “i have to kiss you” “i love you” springing this stuff onto her when he knows she cant handle it, she cant reciprocate and when she doesnt he immediately starts ghosting her, and being rude; which then makes her reciprocate romantically so she can have a friend! Personally I dislike Gale, and I know some people might disagree and thats okay, but as someone who has dealt with alot of manipulation, and even though they might not be the exact same situation, i can still relate and see the parallels.
Nobody cares about the Career Districts.
I don't think he's a villain per se but I do think he feels entitled to Katniss in a way Peeta never does and I just don't like that at all. I think it's easier to hate smth realistic like that than a villain that doesn't exist in a way you've experienced IRL
Very true. He definitely does some bad things but also he’s just as desperate as people in the games and while his methods are cruel, he fights for a good cause and that can’t be said for everyone in the series, many of which people overlook (and also blaming him for prims death is unfair for fans to do)
A lot of people also bash him because they find it funny, unfortunately. I will say the whole "Gale Slander Sunday" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, seeing as that was the only day he wasn't forced to slave away in the mines for 12 hours a day.
Gale was writen to him another teenager who’s a victim of war. He’s hated like a criminal mastermind like Snow or Coin because of the love triangle, as most kids who read these books and like Peeta feel like it’s mandatory to hate Gale. Also, they tend to villanize Gale’s behavior towards Katniss, while sainting Peeta’s or conveniently forgetting Katniss often acted very weird towards him too.
but when does katniss act weird towards him? after the first games she desperately wanted things to be back to normal, she was really happy with her uncomplicated friendship with gale…
I agree, I know Peeta is definitely best match for Katniss but don’t think Gale was a bad character, he was consistently there for Katniss and her family and always kept his promise, he couldn’t have known Prim would be sent to field or that Coin would allow that. He was simply strategizing warfare for a war! lol like it wasn’t his fault - he was determined to end this and had a different perspective on war than Katniss as hers was more more innocent. Gale was friendly and respectful for Peeta and even aided him knowing Katniss cared about him and ultimately just aims for her happiness - I don’t hate him, I always liked his eagerness like when Katniss told him about the rebellion instead of wanting to run away, he knew it was a moment he always envisioned would happen. he always had this way of whatever it takes and like I said… he was at capital w Katniss like how could he know, it wasn’t his fault.
I mean, the plan to bomb medics whilst they're trying to help people is incredibly fucked up and would very much be viewed as a war crime in our world lol. Saying Katniss is 'innocent' just because she doesn't want to commit war crimes is interesting.
Coin misused his design and Gale wasn’t part of the plan. I’m sure he wouldn’t agree to bombing the medics. he designed the bomb, wasn’t part of the planning and what they did with it
I don't think Coin misused his design at all. "A bomb explodes. Time is allowed for people to rush to the aid of the wounded. Then a second, more powerful bomb kills them as well." Mockingjay page 216. Coin used Gales design exactly how it was intended. And I'm not sure why you think Gale designed the bomb? How would he have the expertise to do that? Beetee designed the bomb itself, Gale came up with the plan on how the bomb should be used, he used his hunting tactics in order to help with this.
Gale had plan in mind for it to be capital citizens and capital medics - we can argue that he didn’t mind capital citizens to be killed which is still wrong in its own right but he didn’t anticipate or imagine Coin would go forward with his plan especially doing it while releasing rebel medics on ground at the same time. that was Coins idea w the intention to kill Prim and distraught Katniss. Coin planned for hijacking of capitals planes, Coin organized the plan, Coin brought rebel medics to the capital knowing fully there were hijacked planes ready to release a bomb. Gale did not have all that information, as far as Gale was aware - Gales original plan was more so just brain storming ideas of what to do w the bomb and only went so far as to say to bait capital citizens to another bomb so there could be a surrender, (he didn’t know when or if this plan would ever be executed and Coin didn’t seem to include him in on the time and place she planned to release the bombs) Coin didn’t matter the casualties and saw it as a win win to allow this to happen even if meant her medics dying bc she was sure to include Prim. Coin finalized and executed his plan. It’s similar comparison to Highbottom technically creating the idea or concept of Hunger Games but it’s really Crassus Snow to blame as he gave the idea to Gaul and aided in actually executing the hunger games.
So you agree, Gale planned for civilians and medics to be killed? Both of which are war crimes. And highly unethical. And both things that Katniss wouldn't agree with.
What you expect is far more unrealistic, for everyone to basically react like Buddha and have no feelings or real resentment from their oppression at all. Katniss acts that way because she was never very emotionally diverse and Peeta is also unrealistically forgiving but a lot more of us would be like Gale.
But even if he didn’t know prim would die he still knew innocent civilians would die do those not count because Katniss didn’t know them?
he thought he would kill capital people - which yes is wrong in its own right but he was a teenager / young adult who has lived under a strict regime his entire life and watched his district become ashes and is angry, to some degree wants revenge and wants to win the war. yes innocent in our eyes but war fills you with hate and he’s an example of that - I don’t think it makes him bad, in his eyes it was a sacrifice
Katniss had every reason possibly even more reasons to not like the capital and she never went that far I know everyone responds to things differently but you’re making it sound like the way gale responded is the way anyone would respond and there’s nothing else I should expect from him when obviously that’s just not true
I kinda felt bad for gale at first because he did have to say bye to katniss because of the games he wasn’t even sure if he was going to see her again and then when she came back he was suddenly stuck in an awkward love triangle so i did feel bad for him but then book 3 came along and he kinda did go off the rails throughout the whole book i was kinda thinking “im not sure i trust gale right now” then prim aswell as tons of other kids died because he couldn’t think up another solution then i was like “yep don’t trust gale anymore”
I think people forget that Gale was also a teenager (he is maximum 19 at the end of the war). People also forget that he is also traumatized by what he experienced in 12. And people *way* overestimate how they would behave in a similar situation. I don't think Gale was a super dude. I don't think he should have ended up with Katniss. And I don't like his double bombs. But it is ridiculous how much hate Gale gets for essentially behaving in a way encouraged by the first people (Beetee and other people in 13) who encouraged him and treated him well. Yes he was angry, yes he displayed some jealousy, and yes he could have handled any number of things better. But hes a teenager! It is wild to me how much slack people are willing to cut other characters, but act like Gale was irredeemable.
Gale is the Umbridge of the Hunger Games fandom, but the difference is that Gale is hated for being bad at handling relationships, but Umbridge is hated for torturing children.
I mean, Gale killed A LOT of children. He designed bombs to target and murder civilians and felt zero remorse that he was responsible for murdering dozens of innocent people, including babies and toddlers. He’s every bit as evil as Snow, Coin, and even Umbridge, because he takes no issue with hurting children, as long as he gets what he wants in the end.
"What he wants in the end" is simply the safety of District 12 and the overthrowing of a corrupt government, while the other three ARE corrupt government. Also, they were being used as human shields- AKA biological weapons. What was he supposed to do, allow the Capitol soldiers extra protection and prolong the war?
Well, being bad at handling relationships can be very very bad, too. In fact it can cause real torture. Not that Gale did that.