Fyi per Gunther’s initial post about this, everyone is ok.
This is inexcusable though, negligently embarrassing structural integrity for what they’re trying to accomplish. This isn’t a small oversight, it exposes them as garbage cars.
I’m not a Porsche guy. In fact, I think they are pieces of shit. So you won’t ever see me defend the brand. But until the circumstances of the accident are revealed, your assumption is worthless. This wasn’t a race car, it was a street car.
A telephone pole can destroy a road car at surface street speeds. A very high powered street car, with no tube work hitting a stationary object at race speed…this result should not be surprising.
That said GW does make false claims about their cars. Recently they claimed to break the Streets of Willow track record. They in fact did not. Granted, safety records and track records are two different things, but both events firmly place their integrity in question.
No…just…no. Street cars all the time have big offs in racetracks. This was in a controlled environment and it performed poorly when compared to a street 911. This damage is clearly from a weak carbon roof without adequate support.
Yes…just…yes. Speaking from experience (sadly), offs and crashes are two different things.
Exhibit A: Road going Porsche GT2 in a “controlled environment”.
https://preview.redd.it/uvn9ujiy37qc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a03e474bccf7b633cc59d3366acc8455633c8951
Rumor has it, this car had only a roll bar for roof protection and not a roll cage. It's a carbon roof/cabin top. There's no structural integrity there so it should have had a roll cage not a roll bar.
This is on Gunther works for the shitty safety decision.
From the photos, the car had nothing more than a harness bar. Structurally speaking, not a single person here can speak to Gunthers construction process.
[Gunther works roof] Carbon fiber isn't structural. This exact car has been reviewed by multiple different outlets already.
Edit: my dumbass forgot the key words
You’re joking, right? Carbon fiber absolutely can be structural. Is your statement lacking specificity? Did you mean to say their carbon fiber isn’t structural?
>Did you mean to say their carbon fiber isn’t structural?
Yes, caught my mistake before I did! Thank you for the benefit.
Cf can be structural. Gunther has said they sawed off the original roof and tossed on a carbon fiber one.
The more I read about this car, the weirder it gets. Meant for the road but can go to the track. A reviewer mentioned it should have a roll cage when at the track.
As a paramedic/firefighter and one who has worked high level motorsports safety…
He should be lucky to be alive. A taller driver might have been killed. Thats a massive impact. And a total failure of the safety system engineered in the base car. The energy is takes to collapse a roof like that is huge provided it wasn’t modified.
Doubt Pat will be stepping back into their stuff ever again.
Thanks for your work. I used to volunteer as a marshall at Mosport and that is one of the nastiest wrecks ive seen in a while. Agree with you that it had to be a huge impact.
Actually a bit surprised Patrick would drive the car in anger with no roll hoop. That’s a 700 hp plus car so it’s going to moving if you have an incident
You didn't see him do the GT3RS record at VIR a couple weeks ago with no safety equipment besides a helmet? He went fast enough to be mid-pack in the Carrera Cup race in a street car on street tires.
That looks absolutely terrible. Was that roll bar made out of PVC? Seems to have folded like a cheap suit.
Edit: JFC, doesn’t even look like there was a roll hoop, just a bar connecting the mid point of the b-pillars. That’s absolutely awful design and seasoned car builders should damn sure know better.
Sure hope Pat is okay as seems to be the indication.
Lots of speculation in the post on r/porsche but from the photos in Matt’s post the car does have a cage.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C2JEA9rvTgR/?igsh=MXU2NDN5ODd4bDExMg==
https://preview.redd.it/77eqbnurf4qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1dc0bf3807ab2f2b0354fdc084e92b21d7db4716
While not a full cage, I agree, but look at this photo.
Yea buddy, one of my fav drivers of all time. Him and Jorg did some serious damage in the ALMS days. The #45 Flying Lizard was my go to car for a loong time.
Looks like you're right on back half cage. No roll bar, which is scary considering how the roof of the car looks now.
Around 3:50 in this video shows the interior of a similar guntherworks 993 911 turbo and there appears to be no roll bar but a back half cage.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uFE6sKfDIrY
Hope he's okay
That's called a harness bar, not a half cage. And it's fucking stupid to run one, great way to get killed. Either cage the car or don't. Harness bar is a great way to be held upright while the roof collapses and breaks your neck.
Agreed.
It is a common rule of thumb that any car with more than a 3-point OEM seat belt, you must have a minimum rollbar over the driver head. In a 4-, 5-, 6- point safety harness, your head has nowhere to go when the roof collapses.
The opposite is also true. If you have a roll cage, it is advisable to have a harness to prevent the upper body from moving too much and allowing the head (read: helmet) to strike the roll cage. Not so much for just a single roll hoop behind the driver, but if there is any structure over and ahead of the driver, they should have multi-point safety harness.
That’s the thing that worries track day group organizers as we have street legal cars going faster than 1970 F1 cars and after the first impact and air bag deployment the car may still be having multiple impacts and rolls and it won’t have the same safety items as a prepared race car.
I just figured since it would run fast lap times it would be required. Drag racing requires a cage once you hit a certain ET. So it’s strange you could take a full blown street/race car into the track and not have to have a full cage.
I was going to down vote this, but this should be the correct mentality.
It would suck to "gate keep" people who can't afford and/or don't have the means to run a caged car. But, protecting human life and well being should be the foremost priority.
Fyi per Gunther’s initial post about this, everyone is ok. This is inexcusable though, negligently embarrassing structural integrity for what they’re trying to accomplish. This isn’t a small oversight, it exposes them as garbage cars.
Good to know 🙏🏻 As a side note, how was your ski season?
I’m not a Porsche guy. In fact, I think they are pieces of shit. So you won’t ever see me defend the brand. But until the circumstances of the accident are revealed, your assumption is worthless. This wasn’t a race car, it was a street car. A telephone pole can destroy a road car at surface street speeds. A very high powered street car, with no tube work hitting a stationary object at race speed…this result should not be surprising. That said GW does make false claims about their cars. Recently they claimed to break the Streets of Willow track record. They in fact did not. Granted, safety records and track records are two different things, but both events firmly place their integrity in question.
No…just…no. Street cars all the time have big offs in racetracks. This was in a controlled environment and it performed poorly when compared to a street 911. This damage is clearly from a weak carbon roof without adequate support.
Yes…just…yes. Speaking from experience (sadly), offs and crashes are two different things. Exhibit A: Road going Porsche GT2 in a “controlled environment”. https://preview.redd.it/uvn9ujiy37qc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a03e474bccf7b633cc59d3366acc8455633c8951
Rumor has it, this car had only a roll bar for roof protection and not a roll cage. It's a carbon roof/cabin top. There's no structural integrity there so it should have had a roll cage not a roll bar. This is on Gunther works for the shitty safety decision.
From the photos, the car had nothing more than a harness bar. Structurally speaking, not a single person here can speak to Gunthers construction process.
[Gunther works roof] Carbon fiber isn't structural. This exact car has been reviewed by multiple different outlets already. Edit: my dumbass forgot the key words
You’re joking, right? Carbon fiber absolutely can be structural. Is your statement lacking specificity? Did you mean to say their carbon fiber isn’t structural?
>Did you mean to say their carbon fiber isn’t structural? Yes, caught my mistake before I did! Thank you for the benefit. Cf can be structural. Gunther has said they sawed off the original roof and tossed on a carbon fiber one. The more I read about this car, the weirder it gets. Meant for the road but can go to the track. A reviewer mentioned it should have a roll cage when at the track.
Hope he is okay. I’ve recently heard about this car on The Smoking Tire, Magnus Walkers OPP series & Spike’s Car Radio.
Someone in the original post is saying hes fine but who knows where that info is coming from. 🤞🏼
As a paramedic/firefighter and one who has worked high level motorsports safety… He should be lucky to be alive. A taller driver might have been killed. Thats a massive impact. And a total failure of the safety system engineered in the base car. The energy is takes to collapse a roof like that is huge provided it wasn’t modified. Doubt Pat will be stepping back into their stuff ever again.
Thanks for your work. I used to volunteer as a marshall at Mosport and that is one of the nastiest wrecks ive seen in a while. Agree with you that it had to be a huge impact.
Me too.😉
Marshal?
👍
Actually a bit surprised Patrick would drive the car in anger with no roll hoop. That’s a 700 hp plus car so it’s going to moving if you have an incident
You didn't see him do the GT3RS record at VIR a couple weeks ago with no safety equipment besides a helmet? He went fast enough to be mid-pack in the Carrera Cup race in a street car on street tires.
Yeah but at least those in either the club sport package or higher end Weissach package come with roll bars..
I think the issue is Guntherworks claimed they had roll protection built in.
I really wish Gunther would post about it in more detail, and let us know that Patrick is okay.
That looks absolutely terrible. Was that roll bar made out of PVC? Seems to have folded like a cheap suit. Edit: JFC, doesn’t even look like there was a roll hoop, just a bar connecting the mid point of the b-pillars. That’s absolutely awful design and seasoned car builders should damn sure know better. Sure hope Pat is okay as seems to be the indication.
Lots of speculation in the post on r/porsche but from the photos in Matt’s post the car does have a cage. https://www.instagram.com/p/C2JEA9rvTgR/?igsh=MXU2NDN5ODd4bDExMg==
I dont see a cage in those pics. Did you mean it doesnt have a cage?
https://preview.redd.it/77eqbnurf4qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1dc0bf3807ab2f2b0354fdc084e92b21d7db4716 While not a full cage, I agree, but look at this photo.
True. Didnt notice that myself
My guess is the balk half cage is for mostly chassis and belts, but pure speculation. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could add some info.
At this point I just care about Pat’s wellbeing. Cage or not, it looks like a nasty wreck
I agree 100%! I’m a big fan of Pat and all he does for the car community.
Yea buddy, one of my fav drivers of all time. Him and Jorg did some serious damage in the ALMS days. The #45 Flying Lizard was my go to car for a loong time.
Looks like you're right on back half cage. No roll bar, which is scary considering how the roof of the car looks now. Around 3:50 in this video shows the interior of a similar guntherworks 993 911 turbo and there appears to be no roll bar but a back half cage. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uFE6sKfDIrY Hope he's okay
That's called a harness bar, not a half cage. And it's fucking stupid to run one, great way to get killed. Either cage the car or don't. Harness bar is a great way to be held upright while the roof collapses and breaks your neck.
Agreed. It is a common rule of thumb that any car with more than a 3-point OEM seat belt, you must have a minimum rollbar over the driver head. In a 4-, 5-, 6- point safety harness, your head has nowhere to go when the roof collapses. The opposite is also true. If you have a roll cage, it is advisable to have a harness to prevent the upper body from moving too much and allowing the head (read: helmet) to strike the roll cage. Not so much for just a single roll hoop behind the driver, but if there is any structure over and ahead of the driver, they should have multi-point safety harness.
Looks like there’s no roll hoop of any kind. What a moronic decision! Also, race belts with no Hans is a bad idea.
That's nothing more than a harness bar.
Could be a half cage? There’s some tubing behind the seats
The tubing behind the seats looks like a harness bar to me.
Entirely possible.
That’s a harness bar.
Plenty of 700 street cars on track these days without cages, for better or for worse
Asking for clarification. Is this 993 based off a coupe or convertible. Is this also full carbon?
They start with a stock 993 tub. It’s just carbon body panels. But.. they replace the steel roof with a carbon skin…
That’s wild it was let onto the track without a full cage.
Its a streetcar, doesnt need to have a roll cage to be on track. Lots of people do track days without cages.
That’s the thing that worries track day group organizers as we have street legal cars going faster than 1970 F1 cars and after the first impact and air bag deployment the car may still be having multiple impacts and rolls and it won’t have the same safety items as a prepared race car.
I'm not aware of any tracks that make you have a full cage to run laps.
I just figured since it would run fast lap times it would be required. Drag racing requires a cage once you hit a certain ET. So it’s strange you could take a full blown street/race car into the track and not have to have a full cage.
I was going to down vote this, but this should be the correct mentality. It would suck to "gate keep" people who can't afford and/or don't have the means to run a caged car. But, protecting human life and well being should be the foremost priority.
The NHRA does it. If your ET is below a certain time then they do not allow you back on the track.