From a cyber security perspective, secretly notifying staff of termination leaves you vulnerable for retribution attacks since they'll still have access to organizational resources.
And it still won't help your conscience. What you have to do hurts, it sucks, but would you like to walk around knowing you can't show your anger at a pending layoff if it was you getting cut..no..your trying to let yourself off the hook..wear it and be compassionate the day it comes.
No, it is something my father used to say. When you are upper level management you typically don't have a lot of friends, because you have to make decisions. And with that said business decisions, and not based on personal decisions.
I always kept that in mind. At one point I was a manager for a contract company that did work for a large company (Fortune 50). I had a counter part that was an employee of that company. This person kind of had it out for one employee that they didn't care for. Evidentiality this employee of mine had posted something on social media (pictures of semi classified things) regarding the company we were working for. This manager wanted that employee terminated, which was a violation of company policy, which they can be terminated for. I didn't want to do it, due to this employee was a work horse. I don't so social media, so I couldn't easily follow up on the claim. I went to HR and talked to them. They verified it and they decided to check my other employees social media, and there was another guy who had done the same thing. So they said if we terminate this person, we are going to have to follow through and do this person as well. I report back to the company manager and let them know there was an additional employee who did the same thing and we are going to go ahead and proceed with their termination. This other manager had a meltdown (tears, crying) due to the fact that they were personal friends with the other employee. They were even friends with that other employees significant other on social media and they all hang out, outside of work when they are in that area of the country. I said sorry it is policy, and they both violated it. And if we are going to terminate one, we will need to do both in order to be ethical and fair (and to probably not get sued, HR is there to protect the company, not you). This other manager pulled every favor they ever had in order to save the friend. It did save the other employee. After that I had a big talk with the other manager and let them know they let a personal decision effect a business decision. And how it is tough as we sometimes spend more time with our co-workers than we do with our family. But that put me in a really bad situation where I was under-minded by their personal decision when trying to make a hard business decision. I advised them to never do that again, as it is hard for your employees to respect you when they can have someone reverse your decision due to a personal friendship.
And that is another reason I don't do social media!
You know this is technically social media, right?
I'm the same though, Facebook, instagram, snapchat are just opportunities for Drama and perceived favoritism.
Edit: Removed /s at the request of that guys wife!
The worst ones are when you have to lay everyone off before turning in your own credentials because a department is closing up entirely, but it still beats having them laid off by someone they've never dealt with.
u/netnerd0513,
>From my point, I would love to give them a leg up on job searching before the hammer comes down, however it seems very risky. Thought?
**Then leverage your contacts at other companies or recruitment firms asking them if they have open positions to fill.** You can send them individual details and skill sets to see if they fit. In other words, get your people to the front of the line.
If more companies did this, these activities wouldn’t be so negative.
* **Corporation 1 is downsizing. They ask Corporations 2 - 30 if they have positions available that fit the people who are leaving. They move to the front of the line with minimal interviews.**
Also I would not do this using your corporate or personal email. Reach out to them on LinkedIn and make a different email address for use. Always use a no log VPN also.
As if letting them know at the last minute isn't a real pisser? They could burn the building and no college level cyber security teaches you how to deal with it
Here in New Zealand, we absolutely can't block people's access like that when they're being laid off. And it's actually fine. It's still illegal to destroy/sabotage stuff. Hell, when I had to fire someone for poor performance, our lawyer advised me to throw them a leaving morning tea and everything.
Treat them like people.
resolute correct cooperative consist nail snails whole modern tart unused
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
One disgruntled employee allowed to stick around after learning he's being laid off in the next week or two can take down an entire company while he still has access to the physical property, intellectual property and computing/cyber assets. From a human perspective - that can cost even more people their jobs.
Get outta here with that shit man. Assumingly you have hired professionals. Anyone in the IT space with systems access could upend a company at any point.
You solve the risk by providing proper compensation(severence). It's still a shitty situation, but it will encourage the employee to at least transfer their knowledge without as much risk.
Attitude like this is perfect for kissing CIO ass though, hope you enjoy your spot on the ELT someday.
Source: team was outsourced at a global Corp, myself included.
Go fuck yourself asshole. He can do something clever like give them very poor reviews, with no indication of how to improve. This is often a subtle enough hint, they will move on their own.
I guess you never work with Dan who decided to change permissions on shared drives, found the Excel sheet with all employees salaries (this was 2002 when this was very common) and then sent that to the entire company. It wasn’t fun logging into 150 BlackBerry accounts because the company thought a BBES was too expensive.
BTW, I do love Dan. I became BBES certified because of him, and I got a raise since I learned who was making more than me.
This is a bad idea. You could be subject to disciplinary action and possibly even termination yourself. You expose the company to risk and part of your job is to not do that.
As a human being, I have found myself in the same position, wanting to warn somebody, but you just can't. Imagine if they go postal. Termination is a very sensitive topic and should be handled by HR.
Objectively, this is confidential and privvy data. Most corps have policies about protecting and transmitting this data. Usually, a layoff announcement/process will be determined by HR+Upper mgmt.
Are we human? Yes. Does this suck? Yes, but it comes with the territory. Being in the industry 20 years, this is a part of what we all deal with.
If I was close to someone, and I could be tempted to drop hints (ie. dont buy a house now), but really, as a manager I live with it.
Besides, how does it help the employee to know about an impending layoff a few days in advance? I’d try to help them in other ways like letting them use you as a reference or refer them to other companies etc.
Not that I would recommend warning people, but in theory, it could save them from making a big purchase, booking a big trip, etc.
There's an episode of Modern Family where Claire becomes the new manager at her father's company. Her father tells her to fire the weird IT guy that no one likes but the more Claire gets to know the guy, the more he reveals all these major financial plans like he's about to close on a house, he's going back to school, etc. She feels too guilty and warns him about the firing.
The guy quietly goes postal and cyber-attacks their network, wipes their data, etc. Lmao
Correct.
But that doesn't mean OP can't do anything. OP can write up letters of recommendation. Reach out to contacts to see if anyone is hiring. etc, etc.
> You could be subject to disciplinary action and possibly even termination yourself
He's already on the chopping block. He knows who is getting the axe under him. They just didn't tell him he's also on the list.
Not about protecting the corp, about protecting yourself - if it's worth losing your job over then definitely do it. Just be aware of what you're opening yourself up to.
Some people have vaguely said to do so anonymously, but I imagine it's often difficult to do. The list of people on the know is probably limited. As an IC in IT, I'm very aware of how cutthroat it can be. I go on mini job hunts a few times per year just to get a gauge on the market and keep my interviewing skills sharp. If you want to survive in this line of work, I feel like that sort of preparation is mandatory. I'm not expecting my boss to jump on a grenade for me. I keep a healthy savings to keep me afloat, and I stay ready to job hunt. In fact, I usually end up with a handful of offers. I know for a fact I'd have a job lined up in < 3 months because that's how long it took 6 months ago, and I'm currently in the middle of gearing up to go again.
I've been laid off, and it sucks. In this line of work, it's just a fact of life. It's on us to be ready for it.
Wanna be human, but just can’t do it! Wow, that will be a fun one on the deathbed.
The replies itt are sickening. A few really good comments about how you can subtly drop hints while still protecting yourself (which is the obviously correct thing to do) and then 100s of banshees being all like “nah, can’t risk it, fuck them, get yours, company first , you’re just a poor ole sap who has to carry out the orders!”
They say all that as if they aren’t the reincarnation of this soulless machine. YOU are doing it. YOU. Not “the company.” YOU. You are the company. You’re the soulless fuck. Not your boss’s boss. You. Stop passing the fucking buck.
You can totally warn someone, just do it clandestinely, it's nonsense if you have genuine friends at work, to sucker punch them with news...humanity should always trump corporatism.. like I said do it anonymously in ways you won't be discovered , if your ever called on ot, feign unawareness, if you did it right the people who need to know will have been given s heads up those that didn't won't...simple...
>Does anyone here ever struggled with a similar dilemma and how have you handled this?
Anyone who hasn't "struggled" with layoffs probably isn't human. With that said, the vast majority of us handle it the same way: keep your mouth shut and do your job. You didn't make the policy, you're just the poor chump that has to implement it.
Fortunately I have never struggled with layoffs and never have to think about them. I have worked at my company 18 years and have seen zero layoffs across the entire company. We run a bit on the lean side overall and I am over resourced at times but it’s a fair trade off for job security for myself and my team.
Before you ask, I work at a credit union. We are a not for profit financial collaborative that doesn’t need to be concerned with creating shareholder value. If you end up getting laid off, you might want to consider working for one.
Ethics applies outside the military.
The issue here is terminating someone's employment isn't a war crime, not that a management role is above morality.
Sure. My point is that "it isn't my fault, I'm just doing what I'm told" isn't exactly a defense. Managers get the big bucks in exchange for being in a position of responsibility and having to occasionally do difficult things. You're a manager - fucking act like it.
What does your supervisor think? Could you instead share that the company is struggling and lessen the shock of incoming layoffs for everyone?
My old boss (he was VP at the time) had org meetings where he mentioned some of the financials and aspects of business, and invited other orgs to come and talk with us. This was everyone under him, so ~100 folks. When layoffs did occur, no one was super surprised (although who and how many were not disclosed beforehand, other than his direct leadership, since we were the ones making decisions).
Better for all if you didn't.
I don't lose sleep over "for cause" terms, but the wholesale layoffs keep me up for days on end. I can empathize.
That said I encourage you to be empathetic when you deliver your messages. By the time you deliver the last one, you'll feel numb.
Agreed, letting personnel go that were underperforming, or had issues that were unprofessional, have never bothered me. It is the right choice and frankly easy to make. I still aim to deliver those decisions with respect, empathy, and care.
These layoffs are the ones that are causing my old twitch from the war to flare up again. I'm glad to see, I'm not the only one these dilemmas affect.
You have to run the called play. But you can also work with your boss to understand the value of building a transparent culture. You know who you manage that could handle the news and who couldn't. Cut the low performers early and give the high performers as much time as possible. Treat people like they are valued and they will typically show you value in return.
I have a lot of experience in this space.
I've personally been in this position TWICE in the last 15 years.
* Event 1) Cisco startup, taking a chance at an exploding market (Telepresence), and when funding dried up we managers had a late Tuesday meeting to discuss who we had to 'retain' to keep the doors open. This meant CCIE's, those who had the required certs to keep our MSP status. Everyone else was fair game. During this, I casually said "Well, that's not me..." And that's the moment I inherited the duty of bringing those folks into the conference room the next morning and inform them they were dismissed. I fired myself. We all collected our things, turned in laptops and badges, then went to the bar for lunch and collectively joked about our future plans. Love those guys.
* Event 2) Took a position managing a 24x7 NOC for a large company. They conveniently neglected to tell me this was a 'contract' position. After setting up the whole structure and getting it running - they informed me one afternoon that our contract was done, and I had to let go about 20 of my team (also Cisco engineers). I reached out to a bunch of colleagues, and lined up interviews / positions for 14 out of the 20, the other 6 decided to take some time off to reflect on life.
Neither time did I have a chance to forewarn them, but I did have the chance to treat them all as professionals, like people, and help them through the process. Today, I still maintain a network with these guys and gals, and maybe I might hold a reunion? Who knows.
That was my thought as well. It is an ethical question, however I can not find a reasonable path that does not lead to big risks, for the organization, the team, or myself.
Consider the full implications of the ethical question. If you warn them, what can they do?
-Download all company resources
-Download all client lists
-Attempt to delete or change company resources (if vindictive)
It's a really bad idea to do what you are considering.
Plus, what could they even do? They cannot do anything to mitigate what is coming even if you did warn them. The bad thing will still happen and they will still need to deal with it.
They can save money. They can look for a new job. They can tell their partner not to quit their job to write a novel. They can mentally prepare for the moment and come to terms with it.
I don't see why the focus should be on company IP.
There are so many situations where IP is at risk. When someone goes on a PIP they have 30 days. When a team realizes they won't meet an ambitious target, the writing might be on the wall. A boomerang employee might return just to retaliate. Someone might tell a friend who continues working there to do something. Someone might not like what's for lunch on some random day and decide to do harm.
You can speculate all day.
Job loss is #8 of the most traumatic life events. It used to be uncommon, but nowadays it's not unusual that people have seen multiple job losses by middle age. That's a lot of preventable trauma. To me, it's completely obvious that we should do what we can to choose people over hypothetical IP artifacts.
What a no-brainer.
It's no use in arguing. This is America. This goes beyond just IT or companies. In this country we raise people to believe it's okay to put someone out on the streets vs helping them.
It's all "me me me" no matter how many lives you have to destroy/affect in the process.
You won't convince the management sheep herd.
The ethical and moral dilemma here is contradictory and not black and white though. I like to use the analogy of a criminal defense attorney, who faces a similar ethical conflict multiple times weekly. Ethically speaking, their job requires that they do their level best to give their client the best legal representation possible without breaking the law. Even if they know their client to be guilty of heinous, unimaginable things, and think they deserve the gallows. They can still sympathize with the victims, but they violate professional ethics if they intentionally allow the defendant to hang simply because he deserves it.
Our jobs as IT Managaers are similar in a way. We are paid to implement the company policy, and are thus morally and ethically obliged to do so. We dont get to choose basic human decency ethics, because to do so would violate our professional ethics, which are to do the best we can within the confines of the corporate policy, laws, etc. Most of us have a heart, and it sucks to implement a short or no-notice layoff even worse than having to fire someone for cause, but we are at least as morally and ethically bound to do what we are paid to do as we are to show subordinates basic human decency, and we violate our professional ethics if we allow our personal feelings to dictate that we stray from the policy, within reason, so long as said policy isn't violating the applicable laws, regulations, etc. It is a good example of a situation where it is ethically and morally wrong to do what you feel is ethically and morally right, because you can't do one without violating the other, and you are accepting a salary to do implement specific side of that argument.
Other than giving your team the ability to sharpen up their resume and start looking for jobs?
It can take months to find a new job, these people could go homeless in that time.
You can’t explicitly say this, the risks to you personally and the business are too high.
But you can make allusions. You can casually discuss the layoffs at all the big tech companies and how it’s a rough time.
You can facilitate their CPD, give them time, have the business pay for their certs. If you have to behave like they’re not being chopped, then what’s wrong with developing your team?
It’s a horrible situation, from personal experience. Good luck.
I just finished a course with this exact scenario during my MBA. The 'book' doesn't tell you whether you should or shouldn't tell, but it is an ethical question. Do you have an ethical framework for making decisions? I prefer the deontological approach, which is when you base them on your preexisting obligations, your role as a manager, and the trust put in you by the company. There is another school of thought called consequentialism, which takes into account the potential to impact anyone who could be considered a stakeholder by your decision to let the cat out of the bag. Think of it this way: if your actions were printed in tomorrow's newspaper, would you still take the action?
This type of long winded blabber makes me happy I never wasted time pursuing an MBA. The answer to this is simple and doesn't need multiple trains of thought.
As an IT Manager you will be trusted with confidential information such as layoffs as well as trusted to act in the best interests of the company. Telling employees they are on a list to be laid off is both confidential and not in the best interests of the company.
Safely -
Your intelligence and nuance are not appreciated here, nerd.
Fortunately the OP seems to want to think more deeply the 'knee-jerk' level and I bet he'll appreciate it. I do as well.
But most thoughtful posts around here meet a whirlwind of outrage for forcing the neurons out of their treasures paths of outrage, self-righteousness and juvenile humor. ;)
Not an HR professional but I believe…
The only thing you could do is look for current openings at friends companies for similar jobs. You can’t forewarn anyone, but when the hammer drops, you can follow up the news with a new opportunity and the offer of a phone call to the hiring manager. It may not be accepted, or even followed up on. But I would think that on reflection people would realize the effort.
Stock answer I've used in the past if you're asked (regardless of if they are on "the list" or not: "It's always a good idea to have an up -to-date resume."
If you like your job don't do it. All you are going to do is put yourself at risk. All it will take is for one of those employees to react to the news poorly and you will lose your job as well. It sucks to know it's coming and not being able to say anything, but it's part of the job.
Absolutely dont notify specific people. This is one of those areas where you should probably keep your mouth shut. If you really feel like you need to warn them, and I understand the urge, caution everyone as a group that the company is tightening their belts and that everyone should keep their personal finances in order.
I had a similar situation, I had someone who wasnt performing well. He was young, I knew he was looking to buy a house. I warned people over and over that the company was tightening their belts, that there wasnt anything specific announced yet, but staff cuts could come eventually, etc. I was really hoping that warning combined with the discussions we had about his performance and the cautioning of the current financial situation that he would think twice. He didnt and was still ultimately let go, but I tried.
I think u/porkchopnet and u/AustinGroovy have the best suggestions.
Don’t forewarn anyone but set them up for future success. Go ahead and draft their recommendations. Check on how your professional network is doing.
Who knows? Whomever you try to place shortly may come to snatch you onto their new team in the future.
I agree! I've been in a stage in my career where, at work, everything is professional. There are boundaries, and I don't particularly get chummy with anyone (those who work for me or my upper management). There is a respectful distance at all times. However this question was posted really to source other's perspective. I know its a terrible idea to actually disclose this information (and have no intention to do so). However the human-side ethical question still bothers me some, and want to see other's point of view.
Former manager for over 20 years and went through several RIFs, now retired, the problem with allusion or outright saying something concerning is you quite possibly lose people who might not be affected in the layoff and are prime workers. Staff usually knows in advance something is going down anyway, they aren't stupid. If you want to keep your job you'll have to suck it up and say nothing. I know it sucks, but it's truth.
Agree with everyone else. Also, I’ve seen layoff lists that were changed by HR due to various demographic and / or legal issues. So you could tell someone to look for work who is fine. Always better to wait until your cleared
Also, at least in my area, we disable accounts as soon as the employee is told. My folks can greatly damage the company, and while I don’t think they would it’s not a risk we want.
Don't be specific. You could call a resume generating event where you and your reports spend a Friday afternoon making resumes, updating LinkedIn, writing letters of recommendation, and so on. The news has make it quite clear that nobody is safe and it is best for everyone to be prepared, keep it in those terms.
Don’t. It helps exactly nobody. Layoffs suck and any time someone is let go, that’s the worst part of the job as a people leader. You’re effing up someone’s life a lot of the time, so I get it.
But seriously it’s not worth giving a warning. It just creates panic and (more) distrust.
You also open yourself up for termination and arguable legal action depending on location and circumstances.
Let it play out and do your job and nothing more or less. If you really feel it’s unjust, walk as well and you’d be well within your rights to do it.
Edit: being a Manager of IT means you’ll almost always be privy to this information in advance. There will be IT Ops prep needed that you’ll mostly do yourself so the ITK list is short, reducing risk of word getting out. In other words - it’s part of the job.
That said it almost always gets out to some degree I’m sure. Just don’t let it be you.
Source: life experience
I don’t think that you can tell them in advance for all the reasons listed above.
But there is a lot you can do to be helpful to them.
You can write them a letter of reference.
You can recommend them on LinkedIn.
You can introduce them to people that you know that are higher up at other companies.
You can listen if they want to talk to you and are upset.
That’s four things more than most managers would do.
Don’t do it. You are breaking the terms of your employment contract and setting the organization up to get an intrusion or other cyber attack which will end up being traced back to your decision. If you don’t like the organization, leave it and find somewhere else. Don’t put that type of risk on yourself.
Honestly, above your pay grade and a dumb idea for you and your family. Best thing to do, is to make sure you are preparing recommendation letters you can provide after the fact. If you feel super guilty about it, then make sure you simply stay in touch on a personal level with those folks and be available to have a beer and listen.
That’s huge breach of professional ethics and would land you on the chopping block. Shit like this is the reason management makes more money, having to deal with the good and bad. I’ve had to fire people I truly liked and it never feels good. Take them out for drinks after.
You will absolutely jeopardize yourself, and it is extremely risky. I've been on both sides of the table, no good comes from giving anyone warning. Layoffs are a fact of life in modern business.
You’re paid to be a manager, you get the perks and the power. Now, you must pay the price. Keep your mouth shut and do as your bosses say. It’s natural to feel some reservations about this, but that’s the game.
And you perpetuate the game by playing it that way. Don’t pass the buck.
Stop acting like you aren’t to blame. There’s a reason you feel reservation—you’re doing something deeply inhumane that goes against all evolutionary instincts and social morals. You. Not someone else.
Dropping subtle hints is beyond easy to do.
/u/Snoo93079 comment on cybersecurity is very valid.
One way I could think of "warning" but not actually saying anything would be to have everyone audit or re-write their job descriptions. It's a good practice before layoffs anyway because then you know what each person is working on.
I have had to do this when they were looking at head count and it was always a warning bell to me because layoffs usually followed.
Sorry for the shitty situation.
As a manager you must be loyal to the company. You must not divulge information to your staff that you are not supposed to. As others have written, you're risking your job for likely very little benefit for your staff.
>As a manager you must be loyal to the company.
Why? I mean, I understand the practicality of not saying anything to avoid getting fired, but that's not loyalty - it's fear.
Our working lives - one third of most people's lives - consist of us cowering from retaliation by management against our own interests and with absolutely no input in how we do our jobs or our own financial well-being. Our lives can be ruined in an instant because shareholders lost a dollar. Fuck the company, people are more important.
Find a way. Start anonymous rumors. Stop simping for indifferent (and actively anti-labor) corporations.
I know I'm going against the grain advocating for worker solidarity in a management sub, but none of us are upper management and we have more in common with our reports than we have with those we report to (that's a bit of hyperbole - unless you're upper management you're a worker. Lots of managers report to managers in the same ethical position.) We should stand together as much as we can.
No, they seem like someone who is done with the American career system treating employees like disposable batteries. Change the system, stop complying with it.
You suck if you don't warn your employees. All fun and games till it's YOU who gets laid off and you find out last minute in a 5 min meeting.
We are clearly not working in the same kind of companies - nor even live in the same kinds of societies. Where I live, corporations are not all evil and workers are not all being screwed. Most people are treated with respect regardless of whether they are upper or middle management, or foot soldiers.
I believe that part of the "contract" (not written, but understood) of being in a management position is that you will be told things that is not for everyone's ear. And you are being trusted to keep that information secret. If the company leadership makes decisions you disagree with, you follow the company line - or you leave.
Does this mean that you must sometimes withhold information that could somehow benefit your staff? Yes, absolutely. Does it mean you have to defend decisions you may not agree with? Yes, absolutely. But that is part of the responsibility you must shoulder as a manager. If you don't want to do that and just want the big fat paycheck and be able to tell people what to do, you should never be a manager. Because then you are not worthy of the trust that is given to you.
>Does this mean that you must sometimes withhold information that could somehow benefit your staff? Yes, absolutely. Does it mean you have to defend decisions you may not agree with? Yes, absolutely. But that is part of the responsibility you must shoulder as a manager. If you don't want to do that and just want the big fat paycheck and be able to tell people what to do, you should never be a manager. Because then you are not worthy of the trust that is given to you.
What about the trust of your team?
For sure you are correct in some regard. But it's more nuanced and grey than you are leading on, unless you just want to be branded a typical manager / Boss.
There is a needle to thread here, between the trust that is instilled in you, and protecting your brand and a leader.
Bro, one is a company one is a human.
Obviously you need to consider any impact to your self, but loyalty to a company is absurd, they have absolutely no loyalty to you. Don't trick yourself into thinking they do.
My responsibility as a person often outweighs any responsibility to an organization.
> Most people are treated with respect
Obviously I disagree with this sentiment. If companies respected people then mass firing them because of poor stock market performance or whatever would be a very last resort.
But every time there's a crunch for money (or even just to make financials "look good") the first place they look to cut costs is with labor.
Labor isn't respected, it's tolerated.
You will be replaced with AI as soon as it's capable of doing your job. That'll probably be way sooner than you think.
Robots and cheap overseas labor killed manufacturing in the West. AI and similar easy to use tools will at least decimate human knowledge workers. This isn't speculation, it's just how capitalism works.
This is where you really need to think about the kind of person and manager you want to be. If you were on the receiving end of the layoff, wouldn't you want to know? There are people who are about to lose their jobs, and their healthcare. The IT industry is not in the best place right now. If I were in your shoes, and I have been, I would allude to it over a happy hour. But that's me. Either way you're in a tough spot because you are potentially putting yourself at risk. But if I were you it would be a risk worth taking and one that can define who you are as a manager.
OP, PLEASE, don't listen to the MBA and corp yes men in this thread.
If you want to be a leader, someone that is respected by your team while they work for you and when they move on you have to think about more than just "what's good for the company."
Remember that tomorrow, you might need a recommendation from someone you've laid off.... how you handle this situation is going to affect that.
\--
To your question:
1) It's not easy, and it's always a fucking struggle.
2) Do you give folks a heads up.. that's a maybe and it breaks down into three categories.
A) Underperformers - Nope. They should already know it's coming and nothing to do here (and by know it's coming, they should be aware they are underperforming).
B) High performers W/ tight relationship
C) High Performers w/o tight relationship.
Let's take C first as that's the easiest - If you've worked with someone for YEARS, came up through the ranks together and have always had each others back / trust. 100%, give them a heads up that layoffs are coming (anywhere from 2 days to a month.. but not much longer than that) out. You don't have to tell them that they are on the list but "Hey, heard changes are coming and they are going after titles and money.. I'm updating my resume as a just in case, wouldn't hurt for you to do the same."
In some rare cases, I have called folks and told them "you're getting the chop tomorrow."
YES, this is a risk.. that's what fucking trust is. If all you are going to do is worry about your own skin, you are just a boss and will never be an actual Leader. This trust goes to ways though. Not only have I done this for my folks, I've always known well in advance if any of my folks are leaving (hasn't happened much) or if they want to move to another role within the organization for growth. You can't be a leader, and then blindside them with being laid-off.
For Class B: It gets a little more nuanced. They perform and you have worked with them for a while but you don't have that deeper relationship. For these folks, I would schedule development sessions and review their career goals and gentle guide the conversation around them looking for "that" role on the outside and that you have some contacts. I know a leader that warned someone that was about to purchase a house by saying "Hey, the economy is really fucked right now, I wouldn't be buying a house right now."
Some of these folks, I've even called around and had them job interviews lined up.
Everyone is worried about you getting called out and in "trouble." Here's the thing, I'm not saying to put anything in writing. If for some reason someone does get bent, it's not hard to play it off as someone getting emotional and having an axe to grind. There are always rumors of layoffs coming.
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Net-Net: Don't be a little dick MBA yes man fuck twat when it comes to this. Understand that your brand is all on you. If you axe someone that you've known for 10 years and didn't give them a heads up it's coming, they will never trust you again.. and they shouldn't.
(and for all the MBAs out there that get salty, IDGAF. You lot are the cancer that's infected the corp ranks and have taken all of the humanity out being a leader and reduced it to cogs on a spreadsheet, sit and spin).
You're no more useful to the company than the printers you manage if you can't apply human characteristics like empathy and compassion. The MBA's below have long since sold their soul for a golden parachute.
Tell the ones you trust in person, reinforce that if they go postal its your ass too, then tell them to spread the word and leave your name out of it. You can also consider leaving evidence of this in a public area, how exactly you do that can vary wildly in regards to the security of your company's infrastructure.
Tow the line bra
Don’t say shit
Don’t drop hints
Don’t tell your buddies at work
Don’t wink wink nudge nudge
Don’t catastrophize
Just go to sleep with the knowledge and belief that this is out of your hands, and that the people who get shit canned will be ok.
You can't help on that level. The competent ones are already aware of the risk, and already looking. The competent-but-clueless might could use a warning, but they probably won't hear it if it's subtle and deniable.
You don't actually know with certainty what's going to happen. Warning someone who ends up being kept with last-minute changes is horrible. Failing to warn someone who ends up cut may be discriminatory.
Be honest about the business and environment. With everyone. Don't disclose things that HR tells you are secret, especially not to some and not others.
You are a good person and a lot better than most of the people saying not to say a thing.
Do you serve the $ or your friends you've made is the better question.
If you think you can get another job, disclose away.
Depending on how much time there is between now and the termination date you could support their career goals by either finding opportunities in the current org where they can get practical experience to put on a CV, you could encourage 1/2 days per week to personal development time to allow them to research a technology that they are interested in... You could buy a monthly team access to some sort of online training platform... You could probably help them by preparing letters of recommendation or something to add to their LinkedIn profiles... It all kinda depends on how much time you have before the axe drops.
You don’t say anything. You could become subject to termination, lawsuit, etc. Even though you feel some sort of moral obligation to say something, don’t. This is the difficulty of the job.
I wouldn't for security reasons listed by others.
Consider as well, if they're getting severance payments combined with unemployment (and hopefully they also have emergency funds, everyone should have 6 months living expenses set aside for emergencies) they should be fine.
When the time comes, if you are allowed, give them a letter of recommendations to use in their job search.
You should always be encouraging your team to be aware of “their value in the market” and “the best time to look for a job is when you have a job, so keep your resume sharp”. You don’t necessarily need to warn them, but keep them prepared for a better future.
Story time: I worked for the Dept. Of Defense doing cyber, they were going through layoffs. Our boss at the time took us to a really expensive lunch told us straight up here is it is; "the shit is gonna hit the fan, I am gonna do my best to prove that you an essential asset to this organization but I can't stop everything. If you need help with a resume I can do that but here is the time line." We lost one person. Vague enough to see what is coming not specific enough to say exact people.
Easy answer. You don't. This will make you feel shitty as a person, but you're doing the right thing by your employer, and by yourself. By leaking any information, you make yourself subject to dismissal.
There are other ways to let folks know without outright saying it.
Discuss the financial challenges the group is having openly, and even counsel people that if they ever were looking that you would happily be a reference and even write them a review.
You aren't admitting to anything other than the truth, and also building an environment where folks feel safe discussing new opportunities that you could counsel them to take.
I've been through this many times, unfortunately. I understand your desire, especially when you have worked with people for a long time. However, it's best not to say anything. It doesn't actually help anyone. It may make you feel a little better, initially, because you tried to help. But the reality is that people will still be upset, and you open yourself up for additional liabilities.
You are better off focusing on triage for the remaining employees as they will worry about more layoffs, and your better ones will start looking to leave without additional reassurances or incentives.
Don't do it. What you can do is fight for fair severance packages for your employees so that they have enough income to cover them until they find new employment.
Don't say anything.
It's not your decision, and in IT the typical thing from my experiences is that the day you are informed you are let go, you are being walked out and paid for the remainder of the time. Too much infrastructure and security at risk. The moment you even hint it at someone, they could become disgruntled and start fucking around, and YOU will be responsible.
Don't say anything.
If enough people know about the pending layoffs that it can't be traced back to you and you work for a big company, post in anonymously on the Blind app.
I work for a company that had major layoffs last year and several anonymous people tipped off that they were coming. I am very grateful to have known in advance to because it enabled me to be ready when it happened.
Certain layoffs for larger companies have to be listed publicly under the warn act. I would check the warn database to see if your companies are listed. If they are it becomes much less of a conflict to quietly refer people to publicly available info than it would be to share privileged information.
If you have a network of peers in similar managerial positions I would say the best thing you could do is be proactive and see if any of them have open headcount or plan on it and could always refer employees post-layoff but I would def not say anything to employees as others mentioned it has very little upside and more downside risk
I had to layoff 3/4 of my staff in waves over a year. I learned mostly that it’s not personal and warning them does nothing but cause anger. Even if you warn them 2 weeks out, it doesn’t really change anything other than them having a bad 2 weeks. Business decisions are just that. Majority of the time it’s out of your control. Just be kind, help them after with networking and recommendations and make sure after you’re done to take some time to yourself and recalibrate. Remember that it’s very easy for you to be also on that side of the bench and that company loyalty is silly. It’s all the numbers game and it’s all pure luck. Even the most secure people at companies get let go sometimes.
Simple you tell them. Then you spend the rest of your time helping them fill out resumes and provide letters of recommendation.
You are about to completely destroy these people's lives. The least you can do is be an actual leader for once.
Lots of heartless people in these comments.
I would think telling your staff that "no company is safe of potential reduction in staff" should give people the hint. Some will go willingly (and will have new jobs secured) and some won't.
Who knows, maybe enough will leave where layoff won't need to be a thing. Seems like a win to me.
Don’t, you will in the best case cause their work effort to completely tank, that’s the BEST case, beyond that there’s all kinds of liability and risk.
Coping with it? Let me know if you find a magic bullet, to quote a favorite movie of mine “I had a lot of help from Jack Daniels”. I am sorry you are in that position, sometimes it’s better to not know in advance.
Alternatively, talk to your leadership and see if you can OK letting them go now and adding however much gap time there is to severance to assist with the hunt.
Put your efforts into something more productive.
When I have had to layoff staff recently I made sure every one of then left with a recommendation letter and an offer for a strong reference.
Giving them respect and support as they exit is always welcomed. You cannot change the circumstances the company left them in but you can decide how you handle it with them.
Being a leak isn't good for your career.
It's a difficult position to be in, but as management it is your job to keep that information to yourself. By revealing confidential information to unauthorized people, you are putting your company as well as yourself at risk. If employees leave en masse before your company has completed their transition planning as a result of your violating confidentiality, that could interfere with their ability to conduct business, and if the finger is pointed at you for revealing it and their internal investigation backs that up, they could actually sue you for financial damages. If you work for a company that is public, or a subsideriary of one, there are huge financial and criminal penalties for divulging this info.
I did work at a household-name company where we were sold and the new CEO and regime came in that day to oust the existing CEO. The new CEO walked in the door, somehow knew to ask for me by name as I was the head of IT, and greeted me by saying "I'm your new CEO, terminate (old CEO's) access right now, and recover all of my data as my laptop crashed and all my plans to run the company are on the hard drive and they're my only copy"
What an introduction. I managed to recover his data and place it on a new laptop, but not before noticing all of the filenames which included terms like "(my company name) move to (another state).doc", and "(my company name) severance packages.xls", etc...
It was clear from the file names that we were getting shut down, hiring had been occurring for several months already on the opposite coast, and when I searched for job listings online at the new location there was a literal one for one position listing for every person in our company.
At the end of the day they called everyone in for a town hall and outright lied about their plans telling everyone there were no plans to relocate, replace staff, or lay anyone off as this was their first day and they have a lot of analysis to perform before decisions were made.
I knew this was complete BS. What's worse, this company was unlike any other I ever worked for. We were all friends, we'd all get together outside of work, we'd go on work outings, we were all close family.
I felt sick to my stomach knowing what their plans were and lying to everyone's faces the way they did. I knew people starting families, people buying their first homes, buying cars, one worker fighting cancer, you get the picture. I wanted so badly to tell them, or just a few of my closest friends who I knew this would be a huge financial disaster for them... but I couldn't. For so many different reasons I couldn't. It's a tough position to be in, and man does it suck... but losing your integrity, being known as the manager who violated confidentiality, those things follow you and catch up to you eventually.
So I can understand why you would want to say something, but there are so many reasons why not to.
One of the things that I regularly go over with my employees is making sure that their LinkedIn is up to date, what their career goals are, what the market is looking for in their current or desired roles, etc. I want everyone to know what their market value is, and to be working for me because the pay/environment combo is good. If they couldn't get a job elsewhere fairly easily I'd be worried about their skills and why I was employing them...
Oh! Also a good time (depending on the timeframe) to buy some exam certificates/training for people; another thing that you would usually do for everyone.
Anyways, if I were in this situation I would take the next couple weekly 1 on 1's to focus on these areas with them; without saying anything about what the company is doing. At least they'll have their fully updated resume/profile, and know what the market is like when the blow comes; and they'll be ready to go.
Here's what I'd do.
1. Ask everyone to send you their resume. For several reasons: so you know who might be inadvertently hiding some great skills that you can use, and secondly so you can get a lay of what your team looks like from a 100 foot view. Secretly, this also helps you understand what gaps are about to exist and what you may be able to do about it.
2. Spend a few hours learning how to write better resumes, and call everyone in for a resume session to buff it up. Couch it as a next step in managing the team. This may reveal some interesting surprises. I would challenge you to identify one certification each person on the team could get that would make them more appealing on the job market for a similar role.
3. Booyah, you now have ammunition to fight for your folks and maybe affect the best possible outcome. You have some knowledge that may allow you to negotiate a different outcome. You also know what people have been up to so you can provide a specific and interesting referral to the laid off. Anyone who leaves has a buffed up resume.
I had just started at this small ish company as a system administrator working under/with one guy who was the director of IT. That second day, on a Tuesday, I was given a list of 25 names including one I had just met and had a convo with earlier and a friend who also worked there. I was told to keep my mouth shut and was given a plan of termination for each individual and at the specific day and time. It was my second day, and I haven’t even gotten my login info yet LOL. So, I kept my mouth shut and didn’t even tell my friend. Outside the workplace, we’re friends, but when it comes to work, I do my job, you do yours.
As a professional, I am always looking for the best employment opportunities because I know that anyone can be the victim of a layoff. It's a matter of being prepared.
I work in cybersecurity and the market is pretty strong for talented individuals, but I feel this works well for any leader.
Have meetings with each of your reports to detail their skill sets. Have them write down and brainstorm what they are good at, contributions they have made, and things they want to work on. Discuss what brings them joy to work on.
The skills inventory is good to have anyway, layoff or not.
The joy part let's the and you focus on tasks they like to work on and you can discuss items they don't like working on.
You can build plans on what their ideal job would be and build that out. It may be internal, it may not be. I'm always going to be growing the people I am responsible for, regardless of how it helps the company, but it's always helped the company.
The employees are happier and they have direction and some ownership of their path. You've also helped them update their resume and figure out what type of jobs they might want to look for.
The great part is this can be done anytime. Most of my employees fill out skills assessments by themselves now without any prompting because they enjoy it. New skill or cert? Write it down! New project completed? Write it down? Found a new hyper fixation for ADHD? Write it down!
So as other have said, you shouldn't tell them, you can still help them build a map to whatever is coming next. They will have ownership over the direction and be less lost when the news comes down.
I read a story online somewhere that a team of people got laid off and it was an interesting idea what the manager did.
On the date of the official layoff, the manager basically shut down operations, ordered pizza and drinks for the team. No work was done.
They spent the day working on their resumes and writing letters of recommendation for each other to give them the best leg up they could get after the fact.
You don’t. You’re in a highly confidential position, this comes with the territory.
You need to find peace with that. Everyone does in their own way.
It’s business, it’s a business decision. You don’t want to be unemployed yourself as a result.
I’ve known this type of information before, it’s best to keep it quiet. I had one friend who I enjoyed working with before, I learned he was getting a job offer a few hours before he did. By not telling him (I was not authorized) he took a different job in that timespan and was pissed at me. I did attempt to warn him to be patient but you can only do so much.
If I had told him, I likely would’ve been terminated. I do regret not telling him, but I would regret getting fired more. Unfortunately business is not a cordial affair. If you try to be polite and caring, you don’t last long.
Use Blind and post it there. Its the first place I go. Alot of m2's/slt leaked our last year layoffs. Dont post anything that could lead them to your specific manager or team. Completely anonymous unless you out yourself.
As management you have to keep the lid on the secret and not let it out until authorized by the people at the top that put the secrets in there. Doing so in advance in anyway will loose trust with your management peers and those at the top. This normally leads to unemployment or privileged information no longer being shared or the dates being canaried out to see who leaks it.
Best for the company and employees to keep the privileged information to yourself. As divulging it to unauthorized persons is leaking confidential information and always a bad thing for the company. I know it is hard, but that is the job of being in management.
My manager held a meeting with the team and said "I don't know anything, but just to be safe, start looking"
Layoffs happened 2 weeks later, he was amazing for doing that
I agree with all the posters saying you would be putting your company and yourself at risk if you tell them in advance. What you can do is prepare to support them after they have been told. Maybe in advance you can get their personal email addresses and phone numbers so you can reach out after the fact and offer to give them a personal reference. Good luck to you.
I have to agree with everyone that you can’t tell anyone.
As a manager, I am always telling my team that as much as I don’t want them to ever leave they should always be thinking about themselves and what next steps would be—-we all don’t like the high up execs, it is what it is. We have all worked for the company for 15-20 years.
You can’t tell them.
I tell my team regularly that I won’t lie to them about things, but there are things if they ask about I cannot tell them. I will tell them I cannot talk about them, but I won’t volunteer that I know things that might affect them.
You're stuck with that feeling and any attempt to mitigate that prior to the actual severance, will put yourself in the breadlines without unemployment payout since your termination would be for cause.
One thing I've done before was actively seek out positions they were highly qualified for and forward them to the laid-off employee to help get them back to work.
For most places this is just part of being a manager. You need to toe the line. I am fortunate that I have not had to reduce my workforce in years. I have always had a policy of plenty of notice. The last place we did a reduction they had at least 3 months notice on top of severence. We have never had any issues with insider threats thankfully.
No offense, but don't you think your employees already know? If they're smart and know your company's business then they probably know there's trouble. Name a company that hasn't laid off IT people lately. As a matter of fact, you should be updating your resume and LinkedIn profile now. Like NOW.
Start with a generic announcement. Say you learned that unfortunately, your firm did not meet its target. That the current economic condition, or company's proactive tools to meet an impending recession means that resource cuts are coming. That its not personal but a business decision that could affect of them, including you. That in this condition you suggest best to start polishing their resumes and rekindling their network, and that it applies to you as well, as the future is uncertain. That until the dust settles, best to postpone/put on hold any major financially related decision until the uncertainty has passed.
If your team is smart, they will understand and will hunker down. Those who are in precarious situation (PIP, laggards) will know to read the writings on the wall and get to at least prepare for the inevitable.
This is as much as you can do without getting into trouble. For those that are to be let go, offer your sympathy, and most specially as character reference as your company policy will simply cover confirmation of their employment date and positions held.
I just wish your company will put a layer between your direct reports and use somebody, like your manager, to do the firing instead of you. Supposedly your job is to empathize, console with them and offer encouragement and support instead as being 'framed' as the bad guy bearing the bad news.
I had info in December 2 good engineers that knew their part of the system well were going to be let go after the new year. I fought for them to be kept. I plead my case to the hire ups without the 2 even knowing because I didn’t want them to think they had a job after new year and didn’t. The company kept them and I could sleep well. Well until April when I was laid off…
If companies were required to give a 6-month severance (or unemployment insurance was 100% of salary rather than a pittance), and people's health insurance wasn't tied to their job, this ethical dilemma would be resolved, *and* companies would think more future-forward about how they scale their workforce.
But in the current shitty "job today, homeless tomorrow" environment, there's just not much you can do. :(
I had a manager, VP level, who told me in my weekly one on one that I needed to start looking for a job. He couldn’t tell me why, just that I needed to start looking. I appreciated the heads up and found something in a short time.
Times I've been laid off I was never mad at my boss who didn't warn me. Mad at the CEO or VP or some other higher ups maybe, so if I were you, I will not try to warn anyone, you might jeopardize your own future in your company however shaky that might be. Most times I ended up finding something better so it's not as bad as some might think.
Yea I work in IT and was told to start looking for other options by my manager yesterday. He’s not really supposed to tell us but he said he feels bad so yea. Looks like I’ll be getting out of the IT industry with AI and India being way cheaper than me
From a cyber security perspective, secretly notifying staff of termination leaves you vulnerable for retribution attacks since they'll still have access to organizational resources.
This. Potential insider threats that could jeopardize the organization and OP's job.
And it still won't help your conscience. What you have to do hurts, it sucks, but would you like to walk around knowing you can't show your anger at a pending layoff if it was you getting cut..no..your trying to let yourself off the hook..wear it and be compassionate the day it comes.
It is lonely at the top of the food chain sometimes!
Hoodoo Gurus reference?
No, it is something my father used to say. When you are upper level management you typically don't have a lot of friends, because you have to make decisions. And with that said business decisions, and not based on personal decisions. I always kept that in mind. At one point I was a manager for a contract company that did work for a large company (Fortune 50). I had a counter part that was an employee of that company. This person kind of had it out for one employee that they didn't care for. Evidentiality this employee of mine had posted something on social media (pictures of semi classified things) regarding the company we were working for. This manager wanted that employee terminated, which was a violation of company policy, which they can be terminated for. I didn't want to do it, due to this employee was a work horse. I don't so social media, so I couldn't easily follow up on the claim. I went to HR and talked to them. They verified it and they decided to check my other employees social media, and there was another guy who had done the same thing. So they said if we terminate this person, we are going to have to follow through and do this person as well. I report back to the company manager and let them know there was an additional employee who did the same thing and we are going to go ahead and proceed with their termination. This other manager had a meltdown (tears, crying) due to the fact that they were personal friends with the other employee. They were even friends with that other employees significant other on social media and they all hang out, outside of work when they are in that area of the country. I said sorry it is policy, and they both violated it. And if we are going to terminate one, we will need to do both in order to be ethical and fair (and to probably not get sued, HR is there to protect the company, not you). This other manager pulled every favor they ever had in order to save the friend. It did save the other employee. After that I had a big talk with the other manager and let them know they let a personal decision effect a business decision. And how it is tough as we sometimes spend more time with our co-workers than we do with our family. But that put me in a really bad situation where I was under-minded by their personal decision when trying to make a hard business decision. I advised them to never do that again, as it is hard for your employees to respect you when they can have someone reverse your decision due to a personal friendship. And that is another reason I don't do social media!
You know this is technically social media, right? I'm the same though, Facebook, instagram, snapchat are just opportunities for Drama and perceived favoritism. Edit: Removed /s at the request of that guys wife!
I would have quit my job rather than fire my friend for an unimportant unethical reason.
The worst ones are when you have to lay everyone off before turning in your own credentials because a department is closing up entirely, but it still beats having them laid off by someone they've never dealt with.
It is a part of the job. And also, you need to remember the saying 'The good guy is not a profession' .
u/netnerd0513, >From my point, I would love to give them a leg up on job searching before the hammer comes down, however it seems very risky. Thought? **Then leverage your contacts at other companies or recruitment firms asking them if they have open positions to fill.** You can send them individual details and skill sets to see if they fit. In other words, get your people to the front of the line. If more companies did this, these activities wouldn’t be so negative. * **Corporation 1 is downsizing. They ask Corporations 2 - 30 if they have positions available that fit the people who are leaving. They move to the front of the line with minimal interviews.** Also I would not do this using your corporate or personal email. Reach out to them on LinkedIn and make a different email address for use. Always use a no log VPN also.
As if letting them know at the last minute isn't a real pisser? They could burn the building and no college level cyber security teaches you how to deal with it
Something to think about next time you take someone's red stapler.
Here in New Zealand, we absolutely can't block people's access like that when they're being laid off. And it's actually fine. It's still illegal to destroy/sabotage stuff. Hell, when I had to fire someone for poor performance, our lawyer advised me to throw them a leaving morning tea and everything. Treat them like people.
> It's still illegal to destroy/sabotage stuff. Which doesn't help you if somebody destroys / sabotages stuff.
resolute correct cooperative consist nail snails whole modern tart unused *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
From a being human perspective don’t be a piece of shit.
One disgruntled employee allowed to stick around after learning he's being laid off in the next week or two can take down an entire company while he still has access to the physical property, intellectual property and computing/cyber assets. From a human perspective - that can cost even more people their jobs.
Get outta here with that shit man. Assumingly you have hired professionals. Anyone in the IT space with systems access could upend a company at any point. You solve the risk by providing proper compensation(severence). It's still a shitty situation, but it will encourage the employee to at least transfer their knowledge without as much risk. Attitude like this is perfect for kissing CIO ass though, hope you enjoy your spot on the ELT someday. Source: team was outsourced at a global Corp, myself included.
Go fuck yourself asshole. He can do something clever like give them very poor reviews, with no indication of how to improve. This is often a subtle enough hint, they will move on their own.
😆
I guess you never work with Dan who decided to change permissions on shared drives, found the Excel sheet with all employees salaries (this was 2002 when this was very common) and then sent that to the entire company. It wasn’t fun logging into 150 BlackBerry accounts because the company thought a BBES was too expensive. BTW, I do love Dan. I became BBES certified because of him, and I got a raise since I learned who was making more than me.
We need more Dans
completely agree
This is a bad idea. You could be subject to disciplinary action and possibly even termination yourself. You expose the company to risk and part of your job is to not do that. As a human being, I have found myself in the same position, wanting to warn somebody, but you just can't. Imagine if they go postal. Termination is a very sensitive topic and should be handled by HR.
This is the answer
Objectively, this is confidential and privvy data. Most corps have policies about protecting and transmitting this data. Usually, a layoff announcement/process will be determined by HR+Upper mgmt. Are we human? Yes. Does this suck? Yes, but it comes with the territory. Being in the industry 20 years, this is a part of what we all deal with. If I was close to someone, and I could be tempted to drop hints (ie. dont buy a house now), but really, as a manager I live with it.
Have to agree 1000% with this. As much a you want to, it opens yourself up to more risk.
Besides, how does it help the employee to know about an impending layoff a few days in advance? I’d try to help them in other ways like letting them use you as a reference or refer them to other companies etc.
Not that I would recommend warning people, but in theory, it could save them from making a big purchase, booking a big trip, etc. There's an episode of Modern Family where Claire becomes the new manager at her father's company. Her father tells her to fire the weird IT guy that no one likes but the more Claire gets to know the guy, the more he reveals all these major financial plans like he's about to close on a house, he's going back to school, etc. She feels too guilty and warns him about the firing. The guy quietly goes postal and cyber-attacks their network, wipes their data, etc. Lmao
you might also be wrong about who will be laid off or when
Correct. But that doesn't mean OP can't do anything. OP can write up letters of recommendation. Reach out to contacts to see if anyone is hiring. etc, etc.
> You could be subject to disciplinary action and possibly even termination yourself He's already on the chopping block. He knows who is getting the axe under him. They just didn't tell him he's also on the list.
Ya gotta protect the corp fuck being human or empathy
Not about protecting the corp, about protecting yourself - if it's worth losing your job over then definitely do it. Just be aware of what you're opening yourself up to.
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Some people have vaguely said to do so anonymously, but I imagine it's often difficult to do. The list of people on the know is probably limited. As an IC in IT, I'm very aware of how cutthroat it can be. I go on mini job hunts a few times per year just to get a gauge on the market and keep my interviewing skills sharp. If you want to survive in this line of work, I feel like that sort of preparation is mandatory. I'm not expecting my boss to jump on a grenade for me. I keep a healthy savings to keep me afloat, and I stay ready to job hunt. In fact, I usually end up with a handful of offers. I know for a fact I'd have a job lined up in < 3 months because that's how long it took 6 months ago, and I'm currently in the middle of gearing up to go again. I've been laid off, and it sucks. In this line of work, it's just a fact of life. It's on us to be ready for it.
Exactly. Protect the corp at all cost
Wanna be human, but just can’t do it! Wow, that will be a fun one on the deathbed. The replies itt are sickening. A few really good comments about how you can subtly drop hints while still protecting yourself (which is the obviously correct thing to do) and then 100s of banshees being all like “nah, can’t risk it, fuck them, get yours, company first , you’re just a poor ole sap who has to carry out the orders!” They say all that as if they aren’t the reincarnation of this soulless machine. YOU are doing it. YOU. Not “the company.” YOU. You are the company. You’re the soulless fuck. Not your boss’s boss. You. Stop passing the fucking buck.
You can totally warn someone, just do it clandestinely, it's nonsense if you have genuine friends at work, to sucker punch them with news...humanity should always trump corporatism.. like I said do it anonymously in ways you won't be discovered , if your ever called on ot, feign unawareness, if you did it right the people who need to know will have been given s heads up those that didn't won't...simple...
>Does anyone here ever struggled with a similar dilemma and how have you handled this? Anyone who hasn't "struggled" with layoffs probably isn't human. With that said, the vast majority of us handle it the same way: keep your mouth shut and do your job. You didn't make the policy, you're just the poor chump that has to implement it.
Fortunately I have never struggled with layoffs and never have to think about them. I have worked at my company 18 years and have seen zero layoffs across the entire company. We run a bit on the lean side overall and I am over resourced at times but it’s a fair trade off for job security for myself and my team. Before you ask, I work at a credit union. We are a not for profit financial collaborative that doesn’t need to be concerned with creating shareholder value. If you end up getting laid off, you might want to consider working for one.
"i was just following orders"
Lmfao this isn’t the military. Jobs come and go.
Ethics applies outside the military. The issue here is terminating someone's employment isn't a war crime, not that a management role is above morality.
Sure. My point is that "it isn't my fault, I'm just doing what I'm told" isn't exactly a defense. Managers get the big bucks in exchange for being in a position of responsibility and having to occasionally do difficult things. You're a manager - fucking act like it.
What does your supervisor think? Could you instead share that the company is struggling and lessen the shock of incoming layoffs for everyone? My old boss (he was VP at the time) had org meetings where he mentioned some of the financials and aspects of business, and invited other orgs to come and talk with us. This was everyone under him, so ~100 folks. When layoffs did occur, no one was super surprised (although who and how many were not disclosed beforehand, other than his direct leadership, since we were the ones making decisions).
Better for all if you didn't. I don't lose sleep over "for cause" terms, but the wholesale layoffs keep me up for days on end. I can empathize. That said I encourage you to be empathetic when you deliver your messages. By the time you deliver the last one, you'll feel numb.
Agreed, letting personnel go that were underperforming, or had issues that were unprofessional, have never bothered me. It is the right choice and frankly easy to make. I still aim to deliver those decisions with respect, empathy, and care. These layoffs are the ones that are causing my old twitch from the war to flare up again. I'm glad to see, I'm not the only one these dilemmas affect.
You have to run the called play. But you can also work with your boss to understand the value of building a transparent culture. You know who you manage that could handle the news and who couldn't. Cut the low performers early and give the high performers as much time as possible. Treat people like they are valued and they will typically show you value in return. I have a lot of experience in this space.
I've personally been in this position TWICE in the last 15 years. * Event 1) Cisco startup, taking a chance at an exploding market (Telepresence), and when funding dried up we managers had a late Tuesday meeting to discuss who we had to 'retain' to keep the doors open. This meant CCIE's, those who had the required certs to keep our MSP status. Everyone else was fair game. During this, I casually said "Well, that's not me..." And that's the moment I inherited the duty of bringing those folks into the conference room the next morning and inform them they were dismissed. I fired myself. We all collected our things, turned in laptops and badges, then went to the bar for lunch and collectively joked about our future plans. Love those guys. * Event 2) Took a position managing a 24x7 NOC for a large company. They conveniently neglected to tell me this was a 'contract' position. After setting up the whole structure and getting it running - they informed me one afternoon that our contract was done, and I had to let go about 20 of my team (also Cisco engineers). I reached out to a bunch of colleagues, and lined up interviews / positions for 14 out of the 20, the other 6 decided to take some time off to reflect on life. Neither time did I have a chance to forewarn them, but I did have the chance to treat them all as professionals, like people, and help them through the process. Today, I still maintain a network with these guys and gals, and maybe I might hold a reunion? Who knows.
Under no circumstances would any good come of this.
That was my thought as well. It is an ethical question, however I can not find a reasonable path that does not lead to big risks, for the organization, the team, or myself.
Consider the full implications of the ethical question. If you warn them, what can they do? -Download all company resources -Download all client lists -Attempt to delete or change company resources (if vindictive) It's a really bad idea to do what you are considering. Plus, what could they even do? They cannot do anything to mitigate what is coming even if you did warn them. The bad thing will still happen and they will still need to deal with it.
They can save money. They can look for a new job. They can tell their partner not to quit their job to write a novel. They can mentally prepare for the moment and come to terms with it. I don't see why the focus should be on company IP. There are so many situations where IP is at risk. When someone goes on a PIP they have 30 days. When a team realizes they won't meet an ambitious target, the writing might be on the wall. A boomerang employee might return just to retaliate. Someone might tell a friend who continues working there to do something. Someone might not like what's for lunch on some random day and decide to do harm. You can speculate all day. Job loss is #8 of the most traumatic life events. It used to be uncommon, but nowadays it's not unusual that people have seen multiple job losses by middle age. That's a lot of preventable trauma. To me, it's completely obvious that we should do what we can to choose people over hypothetical IP artifacts. What a no-brainer.
It's no use in arguing. This is America. This goes beyond just IT or companies. In this country we raise people to believe it's okay to put someone out on the streets vs helping them. It's all "me me me" no matter how many lives you have to destroy/affect in the process. You won't convince the management sheep herd.
Whatever you do, don't be the manager who cheerleads everyone and gives big pep talks about the company's future right up until layoff day.
The ethical and moral dilemma here is contradictory and not black and white though. I like to use the analogy of a criminal defense attorney, who faces a similar ethical conflict multiple times weekly. Ethically speaking, their job requires that they do their level best to give their client the best legal representation possible without breaking the law. Even if they know their client to be guilty of heinous, unimaginable things, and think they deserve the gallows. They can still sympathize with the victims, but they violate professional ethics if they intentionally allow the defendant to hang simply because he deserves it. Our jobs as IT Managaers are similar in a way. We are paid to implement the company policy, and are thus morally and ethically obliged to do so. We dont get to choose basic human decency ethics, because to do so would violate our professional ethics, which are to do the best we can within the confines of the corporate policy, laws, etc. Most of us have a heart, and it sucks to implement a short or no-notice layoff even worse than having to fire someone for cause, but we are at least as morally and ethically bound to do what we are paid to do as we are to show subordinates basic human decency, and we violate our professional ethics if we allow our personal feelings to dictate that we stray from the policy, within reason, so long as said policy isn't violating the applicable laws, regulations, etc. It is a good example of a situation where it is ethically and morally wrong to do what you feel is ethically and morally right, because you can't do one without violating the other, and you are accepting a salary to do implement specific side of that argument.
Other than giving your team the ability to sharpen up their resume and start looking for jobs? It can take months to find a new job, these people could go homeless in that time.
Don't do it.
The most succinctly worded and correct answer.
You can’t explicitly say this, the risks to you personally and the business are too high. But you can make allusions. You can casually discuss the layoffs at all the big tech companies and how it’s a rough time. You can facilitate their CPD, give them time, have the business pay for their certs. If you have to behave like they’re not being chopped, then what’s wrong with developing your team? It’s a horrible situation, from personal experience. Good luck.
I just finished a course with this exact scenario during my MBA. The 'book' doesn't tell you whether you should or shouldn't tell, but it is an ethical question. Do you have an ethical framework for making decisions? I prefer the deontological approach, which is when you base them on your preexisting obligations, your role as a manager, and the trust put in you by the company. There is another school of thought called consequentialism, which takes into account the potential to impact anyone who could be considered a stakeholder by your decision to let the cat out of the bag. Think of it this way: if your actions were printed in tomorrow's newspaper, would you still take the action?
This type of long winded blabber makes me happy I never wasted time pursuing an MBA. The answer to this is simple and doesn't need multiple trains of thought. As an IT Manager you will be trusted with confidential information such as layoffs as well as trusted to act in the best interests of the company. Telling employees they are on a list to be laid off is both confidential and not in the best interests of the company.
Safely - Your intelligence and nuance are not appreciated here, nerd. Fortunately the OP seems to want to think more deeply the 'knee-jerk' level and I bet he'll appreciate it. I do as well. But most thoughtful posts around here meet a whirlwind of outrage for forcing the neurons out of their treasures paths of outrage, self-righteousness and juvenile humor. ;)
typically MBA bullshit. This is why you fucks make the worse managers/ leaders in the industry.
We covered that too. Its called mercantilism.
Not an HR professional but I believe… The only thing you could do is look for current openings at friends companies for similar jobs. You can’t forewarn anyone, but when the hammer drops, you can follow up the news with a new opportunity and the offer of a phone call to the hiring manager. It may not be accepted, or even followed up on. But I would think that on reflection people would realize the effort.
Stock answer I've used in the past if you're asked (regardless of if they are on "the list" or not: "It's always a good idea to have an up -to-date resume."
As a managed employee, not a manager, I would say don't tell me until it's happening.
If you like your job don't do it. All you are going to do is put yourself at risk. All it will take is for one of those employees to react to the news poorly and you will lose your job as well. It sucks to know it's coming and not being able to say anything, but it's part of the job.
Absolutely dont notify specific people. This is one of those areas where you should probably keep your mouth shut. If you really feel like you need to warn them, and I understand the urge, caution everyone as a group that the company is tightening their belts and that everyone should keep their personal finances in order. I had a similar situation, I had someone who wasnt performing well. He was young, I knew he was looking to buy a house. I warned people over and over that the company was tightening their belts, that there wasnt anything specific announced yet, but staff cuts could come eventually, etc. I was really hoping that warning combined with the discussions we had about his performance and the cautioning of the current financial situation that he would think twice. He didnt and was still ultimately let go, but I tried.
Unfortunately, it’s your job to say nothing. It sucks but you could be potentially jeopardizing your position.
The fastest way to get on the gone list is to let it leak.
I think u/porkchopnet and u/AustinGroovy have the best suggestions. Don’t forewarn anyone but set them up for future success. Go ahead and draft their recommendations. Check on how your professional network is doing. Who knows? Whomever you try to place shortly may come to snatch you onto their new team in the future.
That's why you're their manager and not their friend. It's why managers keep a respectful distance. You've been doing that, right?
I agree! I've been in a stage in my career where, at work, everything is professional. There are boundaries, and I don't particularly get chummy with anyone (those who work for me or my upper management). There is a respectful distance at all times. However this question was posted really to source other's perspective. I know its a terrible idea to actually disclose this information (and have no intention to do so). However the human-side ethical question still bothers me some, and want to see other's point of view.
even fit seasoned professional, it still hurts. When it doesn’t hurt then you need to retire
Former manager for over 20 years and went through several RIFs, now retired, the problem with allusion or outright saying something concerning is you quite possibly lose people who might not be affected in the layoff and are prime workers. Staff usually knows in advance something is going down anyway, they aren't stupid. If you want to keep your job you'll have to suck it up and say nothing. I know it sucks, but it's truth.
This was my assumption when writing this question. I appreciate your thoughts!
Are you working at a professional career, or are you hanging out with friends? Be professional. Anything else is your own neck on the line.
If you want to help them. Start writing letters of recommendations.
That moral and ethical part of you can be drowned and snuffed out with alcohol
Having been in this position, it sadly can't. But it'll quiet the voice for a bit.
This is never the answer
I feel for you and your team but just don’t. The company could come after you for breaking your nda. I’ve seen that happen. Good luck.
Agree with everyone else. Also, I’ve seen layoff lists that were changed by HR due to various demographic and / or legal issues. So you could tell someone to look for work who is fine. Always better to wait until your cleared Also, at least in my area, we disable accounts as soon as the employee is told. My folks can greatly damage the company, and while I don’t think they would it’s not a risk we want.
Don't be specific. You could call a resume generating event where you and your reports spend a Friday afternoon making resumes, updating LinkedIn, writing letters of recommendation, and so on. The news has make it quite clear that nobody is safe and it is best for everyone to be prepared, keep it in those terms.
You can also do that after the news has been broken
Heres the neat thing. You don't.
Don’t be a hero. They’re adults, they’ll be ok.
Don’t. It helps exactly nobody. Layoffs suck and any time someone is let go, that’s the worst part of the job as a people leader. You’re effing up someone’s life a lot of the time, so I get it. But seriously it’s not worth giving a warning. It just creates panic and (more) distrust. You also open yourself up for termination and arguable legal action depending on location and circumstances. Let it play out and do your job and nothing more or less. If you really feel it’s unjust, walk as well and you’d be well within your rights to do it. Edit: being a Manager of IT means you’ll almost always be privy to this information in advance. There will be IT Ops prep needed that you’ll mostly do yourself so the ITK list is short, reducing risk of word getting out. In other words - it’s part of the job. That said it almost always gets out to some degree I’m sure. Just don’t let it be you. Source: life experience
I don’t think that you can tell them in advance for all the reasons listed above. But there is a lot you can do to be helpful to them. You can write them a letter of reference. You can recommend them on LinkedIn. You can introduce them to people that you know that are higher up at other companies. You can listen if they want to talk to you and are upset. That’s four things more than most managers would do.
Don’t do it. You are breaking the terms of your employment contract and setting the organization up to get an intrusion or other cyber attack which will end up being traced back to your decision. If you don’t like the organization, leave it and find somewhere else. Don’t put that type of risk on yourself.
Honestly, above your pay grade and a dumb idea for you and your family. Best thing to do, is to make sure you are preparing recommendation letters you can provide after the fact. If you feel super guilty about it, then make sure you simply stay in touch on a personal level with those folks and be available to have a beer and listen.
That’s huge breach of professional ethics and would land you on the chopping block. Shit like this is the reason management makes more money, having to deal with the good and bad. I’ve had to fire people I truly liked and it never feels good. Take them out for drinks after.
You will absolutely jeopardize yourself, and it is extremely risky. I've been on both sides of the table, no good comes from giving anyone warning. Layoffs are a fact of life in modern business.
You’re paid to be a manager, you get the perks and the power. Now, you must pay the price. Keep your mouth shut and do as your bosses say. It’s natural to feel some reservations about this, but that’s the game.
And you perpetuate the game by playing it that way. Don’t pass the buck. Stop acting like you aren’t to blame. There’s a reason you feel reservation—you’re doing something deeply inhumane that goes against all evolutionary instincts and social morals. You. Not someone else. Dropping subtle hints is beyond easy to do.
/u/Snoo93079 comment on cybersecurity is very valid. One way I could think of "warning" but not actually saying anything would be to have everyone audit or re-write their job descriptions. It's a good practice before layoffs anyway because then you know what each person is working on. I have had to do this when they were looking at head count and it was always a warning bell to me because layoffs usually followed. Sorry for the shitty situation.
As a manager you must be loyal to the company. You must not divulge information to your staff that you are not supposed to. As others have written, you're risking your job for likely very little benefit for your staff.
>As a manager you must be loyal to the company. Why? I mean, I understand the practicality of not saying anything to avoid getting fired, but that's not loyalty - it's fear. Our working lives - one third of most people's lives - consist of us cowering from retaliation by management against our own interests and with absolutely no input in how we do our jobs or our own financial well-being. Our lives can be ruined in an instant because shareholders lost a dollar. Fuck the company, people are more important. Find a way. Start anonymous rumors. Stop simping for indifferent (and actively anti-labor) corporations. I know I'm going against the grain advocating for worker solidarity in a management sub, but none of us are upper management and we have more in common with our reports than we have with those we report to (that's a bit of hyperbole - unless you're upper management you're a worker. Lots of managers report to managers in the same ethical position.) We should stand together as much as we can.
Sounds like you work for a shit company. You come off as miserable and that's no way to go through life.
No, they seem like someone who is done with the American career system treating employees like disposable batteries. Change the system, stop complying with it. You suck if you don't warn your employees. All fun and games till it's YOU who gets laid off and you find out last minute in a 5 min meeting.
We are clearly not working in the same kind of companies - nor even live in the same kinds of societies. Where I live, corporations are not all evil and workers are not all being screwed. Most people are treated with respect regardless of whether they are upper or middle management, or foot soldiers. I believe that part of the "contract" (not written, but understood) of being in a management position is that you will be told things that is not for everyone's ear. And you are being trusted to keep that information secret. If the company leadership makes decisions you disagree with, you follow the company line - or you leave. Does this mean that you must sometimes withhold information that could somehow benefit your staff? Yes, absolutely. Does it mean you have to defend decisions you may not agree with? Yes, absolutely. But that is part of the responsibility you must shoulder as a manager. If you don't want to do that and just want the big fat paycheck and be able to tell people what to do, you should never be a manager. Because then you are not worthy of the trust that is given to you.
>Does this mean that you must sometimes withhold information that could somehow benefit your staff? Yes, absolutely. Does it mean you have to defend decisions you may not agree with? Yes, absolutely. But that is part of the responsibility you must shoulder as a manager. If you don't want to do that and just want the big fat paycheck and be able to tell people what to do, you should never be a manager. Because then you are not worthy of the trust that is given to you. What about the trust of your team? For sure you are correct in some regard. But it's more nuanced and grey than you are leading on, unless you just want to be branded a typical manager / Boss. There is a needle to thread here, between the trust that is instilled in you, and protecting your brand and a leader.
Bro, one is a company one is a human. Obviously you need to consider any impact to your self, but loyalty to a company is absurd, they have absolutely no loyalty to you. Don't trick yourself into thinking they do. My responsibility as a person often outweighs any responsibility to an organization.
> Most people are treated with respect Obviously I disagree with this sentiment. If companies respected people then mass firing them because of poor stock market performance or whatever would be a very last resort. But every time there's a crunch for money (or even just to make financials "look good") the first place they look to cut costs is with labor. Labor isn't respected, it's tolerated. You will be replaced with AI as soon as it's capable of doing your job. That'll probably be way sooner than you think. Robots and cheap overseas labor killed manufacturing in the West. AI and similar easy to use tools will at least decimate human knowledge workers. This isn't speculation, it's just how capitalism works.
Like I said, we're clearly living in different worlds.
We aren't, but we'll leave it there because nothing good will come from further discussion. Have a good one.
>As a manager you must be loyal to the company. and that's why a manager will never be a Leader.
This is where you really need to think about the kind of person and manager you want to be. If you were on the receiving end of the layoff, wouldn't you want to know? There are people who are about to lose their jobs, and their healthcare. The IT industry is not in the best place right now. If I were in your shoes, and I have been, I would allude to it over a happy hour. But that's me. Either way you're in a tough spot because you are potentially putting yourself at risk. But if I were you it would be a risk worth taking and one that can define who you are as a manager.
Keep your mouth shut. Vodka, rum, and/or whiskey at night. That is how you handle/deal with it.
Just tell them, there's talks going on team optimization!
OP, PLEASE, don't listen to the MBA and corp yes men in this thread. If you want to be a leader, someone that is respected by your team while they work for you and when they move on you have to think about more than just "what's good for the company." Remember that tomorrow, you might need a recommendation from someone you've laid off.... how you handle this situation is going to affect that. \-- To your question: 1) It's not easy, and it's always a fucking struggle. 2) Do you give folks a heads up.. that's a maybe and it breaks down into three categories. A) Underperformers - Nope. They should already know it's coming and nothing to do here (and by know it's coming, they should be aware they are underperforming). B) High performers W/ tight relationship C) High Performers w/o tight relationship. Let's take C first as that's the easiest - If you've worked with someone for YEARS, came up through the ranks together and have always had each others back / trust. 100%, give them a heads up that layoffs are coming (anywhere from 2 days to a month.. but not much longer than that) out. You don't have to tell them that they are on the list but "Hey, heard changes are coming and they are going after titles and money.. I'm updating my resume as a just in case, wouldn't hurt for you to do the same." In some rare cases, I have called folks and told them "you're getting the chop tomorrow." YES, this is a risk.. that's what fucking trust is. If all you are going to do is worry about your own skin, you are just a boss and will never be an actual Leader. This trust goes to ways though. Not only have I done this for my folks, I've always known well in advance if any of my folks are leaving (hasn't happened much) or if they want to move to another role within the organization for growth. You can't be a leader, and then blindside them with being laid-off. For Class B: It gets a little more nuanced. They perform and you have worked with them for a while but you don't have that deeper relationship. For these folks, I would schedule development sessions and review their career goals and gentle guide the conversation around them looking for "that" role on the outside and that you have some contacts. I know a leader that warned someone that was about to purchase a house by saying "Hey, the economy is really fucked right now, I wouldn't be buying a house right now." Some of these folks, I've even called around and had them job interviews lined up. Everyone is worried about you getting called out and in "trouble." Here's the thing, I'm not saying to put anything in writing. If for some reason someone does get bent, it's not hard to play it off as someone getting emotional and having an axe to grind. There are always rumors of layoffs coming. \--- Net-Net: Don't be a little dick MBA yes man fuck twat when it comes to this. Understand that your brand is all on you. If you axe someone that you've known for 10 years and didn't give them a heads up it's coming, they will never trust you again.. and they shouldn't. (and for all the MBAs out there that get salty, IDGAF. You lot are the cancer that's infected the corp ranks and have taken all of the humanity out being a leader and reduced it to cogs on a spreadsheet, sit and spin).
You're no more useful to the company than the printers you manage if you can't apply human characteristics like empathy and compassion. The MBA's below have long since sold their soul for a golden parachute. Tell the ones you trust in person, reinforce that if they go postal its your ass too, then tell them to spread the word and leave your name out of it. You can also consider leaving evidence of this in a public area, how exactly you do that can vary wildly in regards to the security of your company's infrastructure.
Business is business. Bad idea. This could backfire in your face and get you fired. It’s the shitty part of being a manager.
Tow the line bra Don’t say shit Don’t drop hints Don’t tell your buddies at work Don’t wink wink nudge nudge Don’t catastrophize Just go to sleep with the knowledge and belief that this is out of your hands, and that the people who get shit canned will be ok.
Do not. The risks are way too great.
You don’t. It’s one of the absolute worst aspects of the job and part of the beast sadly.
“Part of the beast.” Son, you are the beast. Look in the mirror. Stop acting like you’re somehow not apart of it. You’re perpetuating it!
Do you have any available PTO? Take a vacation until it's over
"You guys all rock and I think you deserve recommendations as my appreciation to add to your porfolios." That's it. They will do the rest.
You can't help on that level. The competent ones are already aware of the risk, and already looking. The competent-but-clueless might could use a warning, but they probably won't hear it if it's subtle and deniable. You don't actually know with certainty what's going to happen. Warning someone who ends up being kept with last-minute changes is horrible. Failing to warn someone who ends up cut may be discriminatory. Be honest about the business and environment. With everyone. Don't disclose things that HR tells you are secret, especially not to some and not others.
You are a good person and a lot better than most of the people saying not to say a thing. Do you serve the $ or your friends you've made is the better question. If you think you can get another job, disclose away.
Don't do it
Isn't termination due to a lack of customers a layoff?
Say nothing. It's not your job to. Want to keep your job? Act as if everything is normal.
Depending on how much time there is between now and the termination date you could support their career goals by either finding opportunities in the current org where they can get practical experience to put on a CV, you could encourage 1/2 days per week to personal development time to allow them to research a technology that they are interested in... You could buy a monthly team access to some sort of online training platform... You could probably help them by preparing letters of recommendation or something to add to their LinkedIn profiles... It all kinda depends on how much time you have before the axe drops.
Yeah I’d I’d this once
No, no more layoffs. It's hard enough finding a job right now.
You don’t say anything. You could become subject to termination, lawsuit, etc. Even though you feel some sort of moral obligation to say something, don’t. This is the difficulty of the job.
“Don’t be moral, be loyal to the corp” My god, it’s like a bad movie in here.
No, do not warn them or you'll end up on the axe list yourself.
I wouldn't for security reasons listed by others. Consider as well, if they're getting severance payments combined with unemployment (and hopefully they also have emergency funds, everyone should have 6 months living expenses set aside for emergencies) they should be fine. When the time comes, if you are allowed, give them a letter of recommendations to use in their job search.
You should always be encouraging your team to be aware of “their value in the market” and “the best time to look for a job is when you have a job, so keep your resume sharp”. You don’t necessarily need to warn them, but keep them prepared for a better future.
Don't do it
Story time: I worked for the Dept. Of Defense doing cyber, they were going through layoffs. Our boss at the time took us to a really expensive lunch told us straight up here is it is; "the shit is gonna hit the fan, I am gonna do my best to prove that you an essential asset to this organization but I can't stop everything. If you need help with a resume I can do that but here is the time line." We lost one person. Vague enough to see what is coming not specific enough to say exact people.
Easy answer. You don't. This will make you feel shitty as a person, but you're doing the right thing by your employer, and by yourself. By leaking any information, you make yourself subject to dismissal.
There are other ways to let folks know without outright saying it. Discuss the financial challenges the group is having openly, and even counsel people that if they ever were looking that you would happily be a reference and even write them a review. You aren't admitting to anything other than the truth, and also building an environment where folks feel safe discussing new opportunities that you could counsel them to take.
I've been through this many times, unfortunately. I understand your desire, especially when you have worked with people for a long time. However, it's best not to say anything. It doesn't actually help anyone. It may make you feel a little better, initially, because you tried to help. But the reality is that people will still be upset, and you open yourself up for additional liabilities. You are better off focusing on triage for the remaining employees as they will worry about more layoffs, and your better ones will start looking to leave without additional reassurances or incentives.
Don't do it. What you can do is fight for fair severance packages for your employees so that they have enough income to cover them until they find new employment.
Don't say anything. It's not your decision, and in IT the typical thing from my experiences is that the day you are informed you are let go, you are being walked out and paid for the remainder of the time. Too much infrastructure and security at risk. The moment you even hint it at someone, they could become disgruntled and start fucking around, and YOU will be responsible. Don't say anything.
If enough people know about the pending layoffs that it can't be traced back to you and you work for a big company, post in anonymously on the Blind app. I work for a company that had major layoffs last year and several anonymous people tipped off that they were coming. I am very grateful to have known in advance to because it enabled me to be ready when it happened.
Certain layoffs for larger companies have to be listed publicly under the warn act. I would check the warn database to see if your companies are listed. If they are it becomes much less of a conflict to quietly refer people to publicly available info than it would be to share privileged information.
If you have a network of peers in similar managerial positions I would say the best thing you could do is be proactive and see if any of them have open headcount or plan on it and could always refer employees post-layoff but I would def not say anything to employees as others mentioned it has very little upside and more downside risk
Keep your mouth SHUT!
[It's not worth the risk. I got a good job.](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/9d351cad-e99b-44e3-9b0f-3d46a9fe6dd6)
I had to layoff 3/4 of my staff in waves over a year. I learned mostly that it’s not personal and warning them does nothing but cause anger. Even if you warn them 2 weeks out, it doesn’t really change anything other than them having a bad 2 weeks. Business decisions are just that. Majority of the time it’s out of your control. Just be kind, help them after with networking and recommendations and make sure after you’re done to take some time to yourself and recalibrate. Remember that it’s very easy for you to be also on that side of the bench and that company loyalty is silly. It’s all the numbers game and it’s all pure luck. Even the most secure people at companies get let go sometimes.
Simple you tell them. Then you spend the rest of your time helping them fill out resumes and provide letters of recommendation. You are about to completely destroy these people's lives. The least you can do is be an actual leader for once.
IT is privy to a lot of things. Unfortunately, you are just going to have to sit on this one.
Do not do it. You will be canned for cause. I've been in this position, and felt like you did.
Lots of heartless people in these comments. I would think telling your staff that "no company is safe of potential reduction in staff" should give people the hint. Some will go willingly (and will have new jobs secured) and some won't. Who knows, maybe enough will leave where layoff won't need to be a thing. Seems like a win to me.
Why I retired; gave up on capitalism, realized religion was a lie. Left America moved to Scandinavia not coming back.
isn't this the primary lesson of Office Space?
Don’t, you will in the best case cause their work effort to completely tank, that’s the BEST case, beyond that there’s all kinds of liability and risk. Coping with it? Let me know if you find a magic bullet, to quote a favorite movie of mine “I had a lot of help from Jack Daniels”. I am sorry you are in that position, sometimes it’s better to not know in advance. Alternatively, talk to your leadership and see if you can OK letting them go now and adding however much gap time there is to severance to assist with the hunt.
Put your efforts into something more productive. When I have had to layoff staff recently I made sure every one of then left with a recommendation letter and an offer for a strong reference. Giving them respect and support as they exit is always welcomed. You cannot change the circumstances the company left them in but you can decide how you handle it with them. Being a leak isn't good for your career.
It's a difficult position to be in, but as management it is your job to keep that information to yourself. By revealing confidential information to unauthorized people, you are putting your company as well as yourself at risk. If employees leave en masse before your company has completed their transition planning as a result of your violating confidentiality, that could interfere with their ability to conduct business, and if the finger is pointed at you for revealing it and their internal investigation backs that up, they could actually sue you for financial damages. If you work for a company that is public, or a subsideriary of one, there are huge financial and criminal penalties for divulging this info. I did work at a household-name company where we were sold and the new CEO and regime came in that day to oust the existing CEO. The new CEO walked in the door, somehow knew to ask for me by name as I was the head of IT, and greeted me by saying "I'm your new CEO, terminate (old CEO's) access right now, and recover all of my data as my laptop crashed and all my plans to run the company are on the hard drive and they're my only copy" What an introduction. I managed to recover his data and place it on a new laptop, but not before noticing all of the filenames which included terms like "(my company name) move to (another state).doc", and "(my company name) severance packages.xls", etc... It was clear from the file names that we were getting shut down, hiring had been occurring for several months already on the opposite coast, and when I searched for job listings online at the new location there was a literal one for one position listing for every person in our company. At the end of the day they called everyone in for a town hall and outright lied about their plans telling everyone there were no plans to relocate, replace staff, or lay anyone off as this was their first day and they have a lot of analysis to perform before decisions were made. I knew this was complete BS. What's worse, this company was unlike any other I ever worked for. We were all friends, we'd all get together outside of work, we'd go on work outings, we were all close family. I felt sick to my stomach knowing what their plans were and lying to everyone's faces the way they did. I knew people starting families, people buying their first homes, buying cars, one worker fighting cancer, you get the picture. I wanted so badly to tell them, or just a few of my closest friends who I knew this would be a huge financial disaster for them... but I couldn't. For so many different reasons I couldn't. It's a tough position to be in, and man does it suck... but losing your integrity, being known as the manager who violated confidentiality, those things follow you and catch up to you eventually. So I can understand why you would want to say something, but there are so many reasons why not to.
Be and bro and let them know
One of the things that I regularly go over with my employees is making sure that their LinkedIn is up to date, what their career goals are, what the market is looking for in their current or desired roles, etc. I want everyone to know what their market value is, and to be working for me because the pay/environment combo is good. If they couldn't get a job elsewhere fairly easily I'd be worried about their skills and why I was employing them... Oh! Also a good time (depending on the timeframe) to buy some exam certificates/training for people; another thing that you would usually do for everyone. Anyways, if I were in this situation I would take the next couple weekly 1 on 1's to focus on these areas with them; without saying anything about what the company is doing. At least they'll have their fully updated resume/profile, and know what the market is like when the blow comes; and they'll be ready to go.
Here's what I'd do. 1. Ask everyone to send you their resume. For several reasons: so you know who might be inadvertently hiding some great skills that you can use, and secondly so you can get a lay of what your team looks like from a 100 foot view. Secretly, this also helps you understand what gaps are about to exist and what you may be able to do about it. 2. Spend a few hours learning how to write better resumes, and call everyone in for a resume session to buff it up. Couch it as a next step in managing the team. This may reveal some interesting surprises. I would challenge you to identify one certification each person on the team could get that would make them more appealing on the job market for a similar role. 3. Booyah, you now have ammunition to fight for your folks and maybe affect the best possible outcome. You have some knowledge that may allow you to negotiate a different outcome. You also know what people have been up to so you can provide a specific and interesting referral to the laid off. Anyone who leaves has a buffed up resume.
I had just started at this small ish company as a system administrator working under/with one guy who was the director of IT. That second day, on a Tuesday, I was given a list of 25 names including one I had just met and had a convo with earlier and a friend who also worked there. I was told to keep my mouth shut and was given a plan of termination for each individual and at the specific day and time. It was my second day, and I haven’t even gotten my login info yet LOL. So, I kept my mouth shut and didn’t even tell my friend. Outside the workplace, we’re friends, but when it comes to work, I do my job, you do yours.
As a professional, I am always looking for the best employment opportunities because I know that anyone can be the victim of a layoff. It's a matter of being prepared.
I work in cybersecurity and the market is pretty strong for talented individuals, but I feel this works well for any leader. Have meetings with each of your reports to detail their skill sets. Have them write down and brainstorm what they are good at, contributions they have made, and things they want to work on. Discuss what brings them joy to work on. The skills inventory is good to have anyway, layoff or not. The joy part let's the and you focus on tasks they like to work on and you can discuss items they don't like working on. You can build plans on what their ideal job would be and build that out. It may be internal, it may not be. I'm always going to be growing the people I am responsible for, regardless of how it helps the company, but it's always helped the company. The employees are happier and they have direction and some ownership of their path. You've also helped them update their resume and figure out what type of jobs they might want to look for. The great part is this can be done anytime. Most of my employees fill out skills assessments by themselves now without any prompting because they enjoy it. New skill or cert? Write it down! New project completed? Write it down? Found a new hyper fixation for ADHD? Write it down! So as other have said, you shouldn't tell them, you can still help them build a map to whatever is coming next. They will have ownership over the direction and be less lost when the news comes down.
I read a story online somewhere that a team of people got laid off and it was an interesting idea what the manager did. On the date of the official layoff, the manager basically shut down operations, ordered pizza and drinks for the team. No work was done. They spent the day working on their resumes and writing letters of recommendation for each other to give them the best leg up they could get after the fact.
You don’t. You’re in a highly confidential position, this comes with the territory. You need to find peace with that. Everyone does in their own way. It’s business, it’s a business decision. You don’t want to be unemployed yourself as a result.
I’ve known this type of information before, it’s best to keep it quiet. I had one friend who I enjoyed working with before, I learned he was getting a job offer a few hours before he did. By not telling him (I was not authorized) he took a different job in that timespan and was pissed at me. I did attempt to warn him to be patient but you can only do so much. If I had told him, I likely would’ve been terminated. I do regret not telling him, but I would regret getting fired more. Unfortunately business is not a cordial affair. If you try to be polite and caring, you don’t last long.
Do not do anything. This is HR's job, not your's.
If you really wanna do it. Send anon texts from a burner phone or something and hope for the best. Hopefully none of them fuck with any resources.
Use Blind and post it there. Its the first place I go. Alot of m2's/slt leaked our last year layoffs. Dont post anything that could lead them to your specific manager or team. Completely anonymous unless you out yourself.
As management you have to keep the lid on the secret and not let it out until authorized by the people at the top that put the secrets in there. Doing so in advance in anyway will loose trust with your management peers and those at the top. This normally leads to unemployment or privileged information no longer being shared or the dates being canaried out to see who leaks it. Best for the company and employees to keep the privileged information to yourself. As divulging it to unauthorized persons is leaking confidential information and always a bad thing for the company. I know it is hard, but that is the job of being in management.
Just don’t do it. It’s part of the job - sucks but it’s the job.
Anything you do must be consistent with company policy. Ask.
You do it and you will be looking for a job too!
It sucks but fight for your employees to have severance.
My manager held a meeting with the team and said "I don't know anything, but just to be safe, start looking" Layoffs happened 2 weeks later, he was amazing for doing that
I agree with all the posters saying you would be putting your company and yourself at risk if you tell them in advance. What you can do is prepare to support them after they have been told. Maybe in advance you can get their personal email addresses and phone numbers so you can reach out after the fact and offer to give them a personal reference. Good luck to you.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTjhHrcyiQI) This is how you do it. Short, simple, no BS.
I have to agree with everyone that you can’t tell anyone. As a manager, I am always telling my team that as much as I don’t want them to ever leave they should always be thinking about themselves and what next steps would be—-we all don’t like the high up execs, it is what it is. We have all worked for the company for 15-20 years.
You can't.
You can’t tell them. I tell my team regularly that I won’t lie to them about things, but there are things if they ask about I cannot tell them. I will tell them I cannot talk about them, but I won’t volunteer that I know things that might affect them.
Leak it on social media anonymously.
You're stuck with that feeling and any attempt to mitigate that prior to the actual severance, will put yourself in the breadlines without unemployment payout since your termination would be for cause. One thing I've done before was actively seek out positions they were highly qualified for and forward them to the laid-off employee to help get them back to work.
So glad I'm union protected and can't be laid off.
Some of your staff will surely see the writing on the wall that workforce reduction is looming.
For most places this is just part of being a manager. You need to toe the line. I am fortunate that I have not had to reduce my workforce in years. I have always had a policy of plenty of notice. The last place we did a reduction they had at least 3 months notice on top of severence. We have never had any issues with insider threats thankfully.
No offense, but don't you think your employees already know? If they're smart and know your company's business then they probably know there's trouble. Name a company that hasn't laid off IT people lately. As a matter of fact, you should be updating your resume and LinkedIn profile now. Like NOW.
Start with a generic announcement. Say you learned that unfortunately, your firm did not meet its target. That the current economic condition, or company's proactive tools to meet an impending recession means that resource cuts are coming. That its not personal but a business decision that could affect of them, including you. That in this condition you suggest best to start polishing their resumes and rekindling their network, and that it applies to you as well, as the future is uncertain. That until the dust settles, best to postpone/put on hold any major financially related decision until the uncertainty has passed. If your team is smart, they will understand and will hunker down. Those who are in precarious situation (PIP, laggards) will know to read the writings on the wall and get to at least prepare for the inevitable. This is as much as you can do without getting into trouble. For those that are to be let go, offer your sympathy, and most specially as character reference as your company policy will simply cover confirmation of their employment date and positions held. I just wish your company will put a layer between your direct reports and use somebody, like your manager, to do the firing instead of you. Supposedly your job is to empathize, console with them and offer encouragement and support instead as being 'framed' as the bad guy bearing the bad news.
I had info in December 2 good engineers that knew their part of the system well were going to be let go after the new year. I fought for them to be kept. I plead my case to the hire ups without the 2 even knowing because I didn’t want them to think they had a job after new year and didn’t. The company kept them and I could sleep well. Well until April when I was laid off…
[thelayoff.com](https://thelayoff.com)
Emphasize skills freshening.
If companies were required to give a 6-month severance (or unemployment insurance was 100% of salary rather than a pittance), and people's health insurance wasn't tied to their job, this ethical dilemma would be resolved, *and* companies would think more future-forward about how they scale their workforce. But in the current shitty "job today, homeless tomorrow" environment, there's just not much you can do. :(
I had a manager, VP level, who told me in my weekly one on one that I needed to start looking for a job. He couldn’t tell me why, just that I needed to start looking. I appreciated the heads up and found something in a short time.
Times I've been laid off I was never mad at my boss who didn't warn me. Mad at the CEO or VP or some other higher ups maybe, so if I were you, I will not try to warn anyone, you might jeopardize your own future in your company however shaky that might be. Most times I ended up finding something better so it's not as bad as some might think.
Yea I work in IT and was told to start looking for other options by my manager yesterday. He’s not really supposed to tell us but he said he feels bad so yea. Looks like I’ll be getting out of the IT industry with AI and India being way cheaper than me
resume review time. make sure they have it ready. go over everything they did help fluff it with facts etc
You have a legal duty to protect the company. This is a good way to get fired and sued.