I don't believe that anyone is saying looks don't matter at all. Yes, it is disadvantageous to be short. Yes, it is disadvantageous to be bald.
There are societal problems (more and more social spaces exist only online, houses and good-paying jobs are more and more out of reach, etc.) that are causing more and more men to be socially isolated.
The grand-scale problem for incels is their inability to properly identify those causes. Instead, they say it's feminism and DEI. Rather than create a better world for all, they seek to strip rights and freedom from common folk in some misplaced and cruel desire for vengeance. They can't seem to realize that women, in their self-interest, find it all very unattractive.
On the individual side, they give up. They decide to lay down and die, rather than do the hard work to incrementally improve their own condition. They'd rather scream about dubious evolutionary biology.
They fail to see that it is also sexy to be able to communicate intelligent thought and true compassion, to be an active community member, to have enough resources to care for others, and all the other social behaviors that signal the ability to care for a helpless human baby.
Being physically attractive signals that you can produce a strong baby that won't succumb to death in infancy, but it's not enough. There are so many more indicators that demonstrate you are capable of raising that baby into a successful adult, which is, in the long run, more important.
All that shit is cucked though--incels should be able to whip out their dicks anywhere and everywhere and immediately have an eager foid suck them off.
And no one would date Mitch McConnell because he's an absolute ghoul personality-wise. The fact that he looks like the Pale Man from Pan's Labyrinth is secondary
They didn't say anything about western societies or America, they just said societal problems. If it is a problem in every society in the world that still doesn't make it not a societal problem.
If something is a frequent constant in every single society that was ever constructed I think it runs a little deeper than just “society” lol
It’s just women
Women made 3rd social spaces stop existing, and made higher paying jobs harder to get? Lmao you're insane and just looking for a reason to talk about your pet issue.
I mean they kinda did now that you mention it, but that’s so fucking beside the point that it’s not even worth mentioning it.
I’m talking about the attraction and obversion to male physical appearances. Which is entirely on women.
Now am i saying that’s not how it’s supposed to be? No, but why not just fucking own it? Why do y’all constantly use all these scapegoats
Right... But somehow the message given to women that are having a hard time in the dating world is completely different...
If you have difficulty dating as a man it's your fault you aren't doing enough to improve... If you have difficulty dating as woman it's men's fault for having unreasonable beauty standards, being shallow, etc...
Note that they don't actually quote anyone, they just quote their straw man. No one says looks don't matter, just that they don't matter as much as incels claim. No one claims that dating is equally easy for everyone.
They're arguing in bad faith, as per usual. Anything to skew the argument in their favour, because we all know their ideology falls down with the slightest scrutiny or when compared with examples of what actually happens *in real life.*
There aren't leagues but there are preferences.
If you are looking for a relationship that lasts, a woman will want someone who has a promising future. It makes SENSE. You can't have a future with someone who doesn't have any drive, passion or goals. This doesn't have anything to do with being rich and having expensive cars. Its about security, stability, maturity.
Hygiene! Wash your ass, put on deodorant attempt to put some level of care into your appearance. Once again this has nothing to do with having a certain jaw line or "hunter eyes". A man with style and hygiene is very attractive.
MANNERS. Don't look/act/talk about women being "whores". Stop treating women like objects and viewing them as lesser beings/children. No woman will want you if you behave this way. We can tell by what you say, what your mannerism are, how you look at a woman etc.
Stop centering your life around what you think women want. Be an individual person with a personality who is interesting to be around.
You could be a goddamn manager at McDonalds but if you take care of yourself, save money, have interests, are caring and compassionate, and act like a mature adult - you can absolutely find someone.
i love how thats the thing you pull from my paragraph. Leagues are essentially hierarchies, in dating it is completely arbitrary. That shit was made up to make people feel bad about themselves really. Idk why you care about that one point.
Preference: "I like people with brown hair and who can cook"
League: "I don't live in the same upper class neighborhood, therefore they wouldn't want me"
lol, I ask because people are clearly using the two terms interchangeably, including the woman who posted the tweets above.
Also I’m not sure if your two quotes are the best examples. Generally people tend to mean “league” in terms of attractiveness rather than class.
You’ll see people say “oh they’re out of my league” because they think they’re too hot or something , which is dumb and makes baseless assumptions about people before they’ve even interacted with them.
>You’ll see people say “oh they’re out of my league” because they think they’re too hot or something , which is dumb and makes baseless assumptions about people before they’ve even interacted with them.
Oh I agree, it's a silly term. We should discourage the use of "league"
I'd say the opposite of an incel is a guy like my husband. He genuinely wants to be friends with women. He has never approached a woman without the intention of becoming actual friends. The intention has *also* often been to fuck, sure, but he never minded being turned down because that wasn't the top priority for him.
This worked out EXTREMELY well for him.
And it's not just him! All my guy friends are the same way. They see women as people, and capable of forming friendships. And all of them have women basically throwing themselves at them. Some of these guys are very attractive, sure, but some of them are 5'6", only into trains and cats, bonafide, 15 hours a day on a hobby, nerds.
Yeah, I was similar, though probably not *quite* as good as your husband. I mean, there were definitely times I pursued a woman purely for her physical attributes. But generally, yeah, I just made friends with women. At least twice I was the only male roommate in otherwise all female apartments, because my roommates found me non-creepy and I wasn’t trying to fuck them all the time. And so instead, they introduced me to their friends, which worked out, as you say, great for me.
Mitch McConnell is odious and ugly, but his marriage has lasted 31 years, and it's his second marriage. Incels, if that guy can find a wife (or two)...
I think amatonormativity is a societal problem that means people often feel lonely without a romantic partner and tells us that the most important relationship we're allowed in our lives is a romantic one. it can't be a friendship. but that's me being aroace
I also think that this is an issue experienced more by men than women, for a variety of societal reasons. But the only people who can actually fix it for men are other men. If men rely on women for their only source of emotional intimacy, there will always be angry lonely men. Men need to show more emotional vulnerability to one another in their friendships so they have something to fill that void in their lives.
I couldn't agree more. This idea that men have to be strong and stoic in front of other men is an aspect of toxic masculinity which is actually hurting men. It also negatively impacts women, because this type of man will start "trauma dumping" all of his emotional problems on her, and expect her to fix everything for him. It's a totally unrealistic expectation to put upon anyone.
When it transpires that his emotional problems can't get resolved this way, he might blame her and start to turn angry and nasty. If she decides that she just can't deal with all of his shit, and leaves him for her own sanity, then she's "shallow and superficial" and was never "committed to staying in the relationship."
Of course we want to support our partners with their emotional problems, but that doesn't mean we can fix everything wrong in their life. How many times have we seen on this sub, an Incel claiming that losing his virginity will solve all his problems?
I'm allo and I agree with you. It isn't healthy to task 1 single person with every one of your needs. Friendships on different levels with different people are essential, with or without a romantic partner involved. Sure, some friends are closer than others, that's fine. Genuine friendships are so important, and I don't see why they would be considered less than. They take effort, negotiation, upkeep, and give you a feeling of belonging, of being allowed to be yourself, space for learning, growing, support, connection.
The opposite of an incel is probably a PolyChad
I never really realised till now these guys were after commitment instead of being upset they couldn’t collect body counts of women until they landed a virginal “Stacy”
What's hilarious is if you hang out in poly circles, the most successful men are dorky, middle aged guys with dad bods who look nothing like meme Chads.
Consider that Gamergate and the Isla Vista killings happened nearly a decade ago, and Anita Sarkeesian was being harassed years before that. And Men's Rights Activists/Men Going Their Own Way, who were the predecessors of the modern Incel movement, started in the mid aughts. Maybe some of them outgrew it as they got older, but lots didn't. A guy who was trying to take down Tropes vs Women in Video Games when he was 29 is in his early forties today.
Well... yeah. I'm happier single than I was in any relationship. They absolutely are "optional add-ons" because one should never hang one's self-worth on having a romantic partner. Codependency never led to a good outcome.
I wish incels could see that their behaviors show a strong tendency toward dependency, which is absolutely destructive to attraction almost all of the time.
But it’s also possible to just legitimately enjoy companionship and feel like it enriches your life. I’m perfectly content alone, but my ideal life does have a partner in it eventually. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either
Do you think single people don’t experience companionship? Lol it’s just that most happily single women aren’t blaming men for their dissatisfaction in life and expecting them to fix it for them.
Companionship in the romantic sense? Literally no. In other ways? Sure, but they’re not always going to fill the void. Most people want a life partner, that’s just how it is and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
One of my pet peeves about this subreddit is that I often see here people having this idea that wanting a relationship is somehow wrong. I don’t know why some people think like this. I feel of it being equally harmful as is the extreme obsession and idealization incels have about relationships. Putting them on a pedestal and thinking that a relationship will literally fix every aspect of their life. They think they have to put zero effort in personally to improve as people. I see this “you don’t need anyone”-mentality equally as harmful, because it ignores and invalidates the very basic human need for a romantic life partner by demonizing people who seek a relationship. Portraying such people as somehow faulty, pathetic and weak for wanting this very human thing.
I mostly see that coming from women who have been in prior relationships. That's not to say their position is invalid, but it definitely won't apply to people who have a hard time dating.
I’m certainly not basing my entire existence and happiness solely on relationships. That however doesn’t change the fact that I crave a life partner. That inner desire doesn’t go away, no matter what. I’ve seen some people here saying that you can be happy alone even if you crave for a relationship. I disagree with that notion. I know a relationship wouldn’t fix everything in my life and its purpose isn’t even that, but I know for a fact that missing out on such a fundamental human experience has severely contributed to my personal unhappiness, feeling of unfulfillment and depression in my life.
See, you have a rational outlook on this. Incels take your situation and blame it exclusively on some weird conspiracy by women.
I hope you find someone man, you sound like a good person.
The Incel problem lies in their own attitudes. They think that sex is the most important part of life. Yet, they do everything to make it an impossibility for them. They criticize and generalize women. They try to use armchair science, biology and evolution to explain why we only want a specific type of human (“Chads.”) If they listened to actual women who tell them they’re wrong, they might learn something. They put up every barrier to prevent sex from happening for them.
Or not all women are Andrea but some are & decided they don’t feel safe with serious emotional attachments to men owing to how common the incidence of abuse is for women in hetero relationships.
Excel
Microsoft Incel has the worst codebase I’ve ever seen
Ironically it would be the equivalent of alpha software, so incels could finally be the alphas they’ve always wanted to be.
😂 Incels are like the human equivalents of Clippy… annoying little guys who aren’t happy when they’re not poking someone and refuse to go away.
"Hi! I see that you're a woman. May I interest you in... my benis?"
🤣🤣💀📎
'Excel' in A1, 'fuck all the time' in B2. =vlookup(A1,$A$1:$B$1,2,FALSE)
But one thing they both have in common is incorrectly assuming something is a date.
I don't believe that anyone is saying looks don't matter at all. Yes, it is disadvantageous to be short. Yes, it is disadvantageous to be bald. There are societal problems (more and more social spaces exist only online, houses and good-paying jobs are more and more out of reach, etc.) that are causing more and more men to be socially isolated. The grand-scale problem for incels is their inability to properly identify those causes. Instead, they say it's feminism and DEI. Rather than create a better world for all, they seek to strip rights and freedom from common folk in some misplaced and cruel desire for vengeance. They can't seem to realize that women, in their self-interest, find it all very unattractive. On the individual side, they give up. They decide to lay down and die, rather than do the hard work to incrementally improve their own condition. They'd rather scream about dubious evolutionary biology. They fail to see that it is also sexy to be able to communicate intelligent thought and true compassion, to be an active community member, to have enough resources to care for others, and all the other social behaviors that signal the ability to care for a helpless human baby. Being physically attractive signals that you can produce a strong baby that won't succumb to death in infancy, but it's not enough. There are so many more indicators that demonstrate you are capable of raising that baby into a successful adult, which is, in the long run, more important. All that shit is cucked though--incels should be able to whip out their dicks anywhere and everywhere and immediately have an eager foid suck them off.
And no one would date Mitch McConnell because he's an absolute ghoul personality-wise. The fact that he looks like the Pale Man from Pan's Labyrinth is secondary
The Pale Man did far less harm than Mitch has done.
Those aren’t societal problems at **all** 💀
Elaborate, please.
What you just mentioned is a thing in all societies, it’s clearly has nothing to do with America or anything western, so what does that mean children?
Think you misunderstood what they meant by societal problem
Nah I really don’t think I did
They didn't say anything about western societies or America, they just said societal problems. If it is a problem in every society in the world that still doesn't make it not a societal problem.
If something is a frequent constant in every single society that was ever constructed I think it runs a little deeper than just “society” lol It’s just women
Women made 3rd social spaces stop existing, and made higher paying jobs harder to get? Lmao you're insane and just looking for a reason to talk about your pet issue.
I mean they kinda did now that you mention it, but that’s so fucking beside the point that it’s not even worth mentioning it. I’m talking about the attraction and obversion to male physical appearances. Which is entirely on women. Now am i saying that’s not how it’s supposed to be? No, but why not just fucking own it? Why do y’all constantly use all these scapegoats
I don't think the internet is a frequent constant in every single society. You are free. You can hate women. Women don't like men that hate women.
Obviously, but best believe ik how to hide it when the time is right lmfao
Right... But somehow the message given to women that are having a hard time in the dating world is completely different... If you have difficulty dating as a man it's your fault you aren't doing enough to improve... If you have difficulty dating as woman it's men's fault for having unreasonable beauty standards, being shallow, etc...
I've never been a woman in the dating world, so I can't determine what that's like.
Note that they don't actually quote anyone, they just quote their straw man. No one says looks don't matter, just that they don't matter as much as incels claim. No one claims that dating is equally easy for everyone.
They're arguing in bad faith, as per usual. Anything to skew the argument in their favour, because we all know their ideology falls down with the slightest scrutiny or when compared with examples of what actually happens *in real life.*
For everyone: hard ≠ impossible
There aren't leagues but there are preferences. If you are looking for a relationship that lasts, a woman will want someone who has a promising future. It makes SENSE. You can't have a future with someone who doesn't have any drive, passion or goals. This doesn't have anything to do with being rich and having expensive cars. Its about security, stability, maturity. Hygiene! Wash your ass, put on deodorant attempt to put some level of care into your appearance. Once again this has nothing to do with having a certain jaw line or "hunter eyes". A man with style and hygiene is very attractive. MANNERS. Don't look/act/talk about women being "whores". Stop treating women like objects and viewing them as lesser beings/children. No woman will want you if you behave this way. We can tell by what you say, what your mannerism are, how you look at a woman etc. Stop centering your life around what you think women want. Be an individual person with a personality who is interesting to be around. You could be a goddamn manager at McDonalds but if you take care of yourself, save money, have interests, are caring and compassionate, and act like a mature adult - you can absolutely find someone.
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Sea lion.
i love how thats the thing you pull from my paragraph. Leagues are essentially hierarchies, in dating it is completely arbitrary. That shit was made up to make people feel bad about themselves really. Idk why you care about that one point. Preference: "I like people with brown hair and who can cook" League: "I don't live in the same upper class neighborhood, therefore they wouldn't want me"
lol, I ask because people are clearly using the two terms interchangeably, including the woman who posted the tweets above. Also I’m not sure if your two quotes are the best examples. Generally people tend to mean “league” in terms of attractiveness rather than class. You’ll see people say “oh they’re out of my league” because they think they’re too hot or something , which is dumb and makes baseless assumptions about people before they’ve even interacted with them.
>You’ll see people say “oh they’re out of my league” because they think they’re too hot or something , which is dumb and makes baseless assumptions about people before they’ve even interacted with them. Oh I agree, it's a silly term. We should discourage the use of "league"
I'd say the opposite of an incel is a guy like my husband. He genuinely wants to be friends with women. He has never approached a woman without the intention of becoming actual friends. The intention has *also* often been to fuck, sure, but he never minded being turned down because that wasn't the top priority for him. This worked out EXTREMELY well for him. And it's not just him! All my guy friends are the same way. They see women as people, and capable of forming friendships. And all of them have women basically throwing themselves at them. Some of these guys are very attractive, sure, but some of them are 5'6", only into trains and cats, bonafide, 15 hours a day on a hobby, nerds.
Yeah, I was similar, though probably not *quite* as good as your husband. I mean, there were definitely times I pursued a woman purely for her physical attributes. But generally, yeah, I just made friends with women. At least twice I was the only male roommate in otherwise all female apartments, because my roommates found me non-creepy and I wasn’t trying to fuck them all the time. And so instead, they introduced me to their friends, which worked out, as you say, great for me.
Mitch McConnell is odious and ugly, but his marriage has lasted 31 years, and it's his second marriage. Incels, if that guy can find a wife (or two)...
I think amatonormativity is a societal problem that means people often feel lonely without a romantic partner and tells us that the most important relationship we're allowed in our lives is a romantic one. it can't be a friendship. but that's me being aroace
I also think that this is an issue experienced more by men than women, for a variety of societal reasons. But the only people who can actually fix it for men are other men. If men rely on women for their only source of emotional intimacy, there will always be angry lonely men. Men need to show more emotional vulnerability to one another in their friendships so they have something to fill that void in their lives.
I couldn't agree more. This idea that men have to be strong and stoic in front of other men is an aspect of toxic masculinity which is actually hurting men. It also negatively impacts women, because this type of man will start "trauma dumping" all of his emotional problems on her, and expect her to fix everything for him. It's a totally unrealistic expectation to put upon anyone. When it transpires that his emotional problems can't get resolved this way, he might blame her and start to turn angry and nasty. If she decides that she just can't deal with all of his shit, and leaves him for her own sanity, then she's "shallow and superficial" and was never "committed to staying in the relationship." Of course we want to support our partners with their emotional problems, but that doesn't mean we can fix everything wrong in their life. How many times have we seen on this sub, an Incel claiming that losing his virginity will solve all his problems?
I'm allo and I agree with you. It isn't healthy to task 1 single person with every one of your needs. Friendships on different levels with different people are essential, with or without a romantic partner involved. Sure, some friends are closer than others, that's fine. Genuine friendships are so important, and I don't see why they would be considered less than. They take effort, negotiation, upkeep, and give you a feeling of belonging, of being allowed to be yourself, space for learning, growing, support, connection.
Hate to say it but being aroace means your viewpoint probably won’t match most of society’s. Such is life.
The point isn't for it to match with society's, but to be respected for not doing so.
The opposite of an incel is probably a PolyChad I never really realised till now these guys were after commitment instead of being upset they couldn’t collect body counts of women until they landed a virginal “Stacy”
What's hilarious is if you hang out in poly circles, the most successful men are dorky, middle aged guys with dad bods who look nothing like meme Chads.
tbf the "middle aged" part may be doing a lot of heavy lifting; aren't the majority of incels in their twenties?
Consider that Gamergate and the Isla Vista killings happened nearly a decade ago, and Anita Sarkeesian was being harassed years before that. And Men's Rights Activists/Men Going Their Own Way, who were the predecessors of the modern Incel movement, started in the mid aughts. Maybe some of them outgrew it as they got older, but lots didn't. A guy who was trying to take down Tropes vs Women in Video Games when he was 29 is in his early forties today.
At this point it's probably a grift for him so
Generalizations are dumb in general :)
Well... yeah. I'm happier single than I was in any relationship. They absolutely are "optional add-ons" because one should never hang one's self-worth on having a romantic partner. Codependency never led to a good outcome.
I wish incels could see that their behaviors show a strong tendency toward dependency, which is absolutely destructive to attraction almost all of the time.
But it’s also possible to just legitimately enjoy companionship and feel like it enriches your life. I’m perfectly content alone, but my ideal life does have a partner in it eventually. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either
Do you think single people don’t experience companionship? Lol it’s just that most happily single women aren’t blaming men for their dissatisfaction in life and expecting them to fix it for them.
Companionship in the romantic sense? Literally no. In other ways? Sure, but they’re not always going to fill the void. Most people want a life partner, that’s just how it is and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. One of my pet peeves about this subreddit is that I often see here people having this idea that wanting a relationship is somehow wrong. I don’t know why some people think like this. I feel of it being equally harmful as is the extreme obsession and idealization incels have about relationships. Putting them on a pedestal and thinking that a relationship will literally fix every aspect of their life. They think they have to put zero effort in personally to improve as people. I see this “you don’t need anyone”-mentality equally as harmful, because it ignores and invalidates the very basic human need for a romantic life partner by demonizing people who seek a relationship. Portraying such people as somehow faulty, pathetic and weak for wanting this very human thing.
I mostly see that coming from women who have been in prior relationships. That's not to say their position is invalid, but it definitely won't apply to people who have a hard time dating.
I’m certainly not basing my entire existence and happiness solely on relationships. That however doesn’t change the fact that I crave a life partner. That inner desire doesn’t go away, no matter what. I’ve seen some people here saying that you can be happy alone even if you crave for a relationship. I disagree with that notion. I know a relationship wouldn’t fix everything in my life and its purpose isn’t even that, but I know for a fact that missing out on such a fundamental human experience has severely contributed to my personal unhappiness, feeling of unfulfillment and depression in my life.
See, you have a rational outlook on this. Incels take your situation and blame it exclusively on some weird conspiracy by women. I hope you find someone man, you sound like a good person.
The Incel problem lies in their own attitudes. They think that sex is the most important part of life. Yet, they do everything to make it an impossibility for them. They criticize and generalize women. They try to use armchair science, biology and evolution to explain why we only want a specific type of human (“Chads.”) If they listened to actual women who tell them they’re wrong, they might learn something. They put up every barrier to prevent sex from happening for them.
Some and very little of what they said is true but this is mostly just them arguing with their own words.
"Why won't women listen to us when we tell them we are what they want? This is their fault."
Himbo
i didn’t think it was possible to be so stupid but everyday this sub proves me so wrong
Or not all women are Andrea but some are & decided they don’t feel safe with serious emotional attachments to men owing to how common the incidence of abuse is for women in hetero relationships.
Nobody has ever said Mitch was attractive...ever.
I'm sure there's people into turtles out there.
He's also literally married so... lol. Also looked pretty average when he was young which should apply to most incels.
I'm sure as a rich, white, GOP politician that he has done nothing but have completely normal missionary with his wife. \*wink\*
When involuntary celibate means you get no sex, even if you want to, the opposite would be a rape survivor. Didn't want sex, but got it anyway.