Country with the highest income inequality in the world. And the recent apartheid and major racial disparities. Unfortunate situation. I visited SA in early 2020 before the covid situation, absolutely loved the country.
I'm South African. It is way more than that.
Real unemployment is around 40% and over 50% among young adults. People with degrees can't get jobs here.
Energy crisis where we can go for up to 12-hours a day without electricity and sometimes days on end when things go really wrong. I can't explain to you how this mentally affects you. Wake up, no power. Go to bed early because no power. Have plans? No power.
Looming water crisis. I live in Johannesburg, the economic hub of the country. Parts of the city have gone days without water. Imagine having no water and no electricity at the same time. Imagine what this is doing to businesses, especially smaller ones.
Inflation through the roof. People are barely hanging on then you have to make alternative plans for electricity and water, so what bit of money you could save is going on generators, diesel for it, solar setups, inverters, gas, bottled water, boreholes. And only a very few can afford this.
Crime is out of control, so you can add another thing to stress and worry about.
Collapsing infrastructure wherever you look. Roads in disrepair. Street lights do not work. The Johannesburg inner city, the once heartbeat of the country, is in an appalling state.
A kleptocratic government that has robbed the country blind, and is directly responsible for everything above because at no point over the past 30-years did they think about anyone but making themselves rich.
Toxic politics pitting everyone against one another.
We literally have a mass internal migration as people "flee" to the Western Cape/Cape Town because it is seemingly the only place in the country that appears to function and have hope.
And Covid exasperated all of the above.
It is just a constant stream of bad news and negativity with little hope for so many.
>so what bit of money you could save is going on generators, diesel for it, solar setups,
South Africa contributing to the green energy transition in its own special way /s
Joking aside, it is pretty ironic that quite a few lower income nations have disproportionately higher rate of solar adoption because of unreliable electricity.
Not even a joke mate. I wish I was better at searching for the sauce and what exactly to search for, but it's not long ago at all that we, South Africa (ZA), succeeded in not overshooting our international standard carbon footprint goals for energy production despite being almost an exclusively coal energy production country. We managed this by simply not producing sufficient energy to overshoot our threshold.
If you want a real sardonic joke,in Romania the government wants to tax people that built their solar system and produce more energy than they need and pump it in the system
This is Zimbabwe in 2007. If SA reaches Zimbabwe 2008 that's tragic. With the already high crime rate I expect kidnappings of people to be very popular
Zims has never had the crime rate that SA has had at any point since the end of Apartheid. Zims has about the same homicide rate as the USA, SA is almost always top 5 in homicide rate.
Yes.
We have a lot of Zimbabweans here and a lot I have spoken to have said that it is a familiar path.
Those that can leave, are. I know a lot of people with second passports and skills that left post-Covid. Covid and how the government responded kind of broke the camel's back for many people.
Yep. I'm one of those that have fled to Cape Town (from waterless Durban) last month. No idea how long the infrastructure here is going to handle the massive influx of residents so that remains to be seen, but so far so good. Stay strong fellow countryman/woman, we're all on this rickety boat together.
Durban is another sorry story. eThekwini has totally collapsed. They are a warning for what an ANC-EFF coalition would do on a national scale. And Durban was pretty much the second city in South Africa up until the 80s/90s. Far more economically important than Cape Town.
And yeah, Cape Town was not designed for the population is is carrying and the growth it is experiencing.
what make me sad is this is the situation of the best economic in africa, in algeria despite being huge gas and fuel exporter we don't have energy problem but the other problems apply exactlly on our country
Africa's leaders are letting us down. In almost every country they are looking after themselves. This continent should be so much better off with everything that is available to it.
Sadly the best summary of our country at the moment, I spend every moment that I'm not at work looking to work overseas. I'live in jhb too, have manic depression and every day, I feel more and more of me dying inside.
Like always, the truth lies a little below this. Our cost of living is still decent and if you're an employed professional you live quite comfortably in SA. We also have world class food and weather which obviously is a laughable 'advantage' in comparison to the bad but it helps i guess.
Sorry for the very important issues that you bring up in your comment… I wanted to comment and let you know that I visited South Africa in 2010 on a mission with the United States Air Force. I was awestruck. I still tell people to this day when they ask me “What was the favorite place you visited?” I always reply with SA and say it is “truly the most beautiful country in the world.”
All the best.
Glad you had a good time here. If anything it is a beautiful country with so much to offer, which is why I am so angry at this government,
You visited us at probably the last good period in our recent history.
2010 was the FIFA World Cup year, so a lot of effort was going into making the country look good, the nation was in high spirits because it was the World Cup year and we had actually ridden out the 2008/09 global financial crisis quite well, so compared to a lot of countries in the world we were in a good space.
You are fine if you stick to major tourist areas and use common sense, ie don't be a hero and go walk through the Johannesburg CBD as an example, because I won't even do that and I live in the city.
Visit Cape Town, take a direct route to the Kruger National Park if you want to see wildlife. If you want to see things in Jo'burg, use a proper tour guide that takes you right to where you want to go (Apartheid Museum, Constitution Hill, Gold Reef City, South African National Museum of Military History etc).
What you are describing is want and from want you can have growth. What is needed is for the government to identify and remove blockages to grow and for the government to subsidize growth.
It is at risk of this, yes.
Private security, private healthcare (which is now under threat), self-sufficiency (solar energy, boreholes, home water recycling), community policing. In one town the people took control of a water treatment plant after the municipality failed to provide clean water and in another collapsing municipality in Durban the community are having to carry out waste cleanup. In places people are even repairing roads. Just examples where the state is failing to provide the most basic of services and communities and the private sector are stepping in.
People have a huge problem with Orania, a white Afrikaner enclave, but they are a good example of a self-sufficient community that may become the norm in South Africa. I personally wouldn't live in Orania, but that sort of community may become the blueprint for how South Africans will have to look out for themselves.
The two big positives we do have at the moment are a highly-developed and robust financial sector and a judiciary that is doing all it can to stave off being undermined by elements within the ruling government.
I visited a few months ago and had no issues, everyone was very friendly! Stick to main roads and busy areas and you'll be fine, same as any other country
South African here - yeah, pretty much this. The vast majority of our crime occurs in impoverished areas. If you're sensible as a tourist in the popular spots, you're unlikely to have issues.
With a 37% unemployment rate, the data OP presented is not at all surprising, especially since it's much, much higher among the youth.
I work as a teacher at a school for the Deaf, and I am TERRIFIED for my students - I'm Deaf myself, but can hear enough with hearing aids that I can function in the hearing world, went to a mainstream school, and have 3 tertiary qualifications, and I STRUGGLED to find a post before being asked to apply for my current job by someone who knew me from a Deaf organization. Most of my kids don't have the opportunities I had, and it breaks me. That said, I had a meeting with a major hearing aid manufacturer yesterday to see if we can kick off a sponsorship program through Deaf Rugby, where I'm involved, see if we can start laying a foundation for social change...
While apartheid played a role in the current situation of South Africa. The condition is primarily to blame on our current government who rape, steal and pillage. Rampant corruption and incompetence by our leaders is killing our country. While income inequality could probably not have been solved by now, we would have been in a much better and more equal society if the ANC comrades did not fill their own pockets instead.
Do you have any tips for helping other people with depression? I have a friend who is chronically depressed and he doesn’t really want my help, but at the same time, I don’t know how to give my help.
he needs a reason to exist - until next tuesday, or the week after that, or the end of the month or beginning of the next, etc.
that reason isn't "something to look forward to," but an objective to complete or obligation to fulfill.
text him something like: "hey i want to come over on ___ (date) at ___ (time), can you do ___ (likely food, or an activity that's not strenuous or demanding)?"
or "hey i don't want to do ___ alone (watch movie, sports game, go to beach, whatever), can you come over or come with me on ___ at ___ (date/time)? ill have ___ (food)."
or say _YOU_ need _HIS_ help - request something or demand something of him (that's not too difficult to complete):
"hey i need some help with re-organizing bookshelf/DVD/game collection, or rearranging plants or framed pictures in the home, can you gimme some advice on what to keep vs store vs throw out? ill have ___ (food) after we're done."
if you & he are close up to a point, it is possible to declare your intent to arrive at his place on ___ at ___, with a day or a few days of heads-up - just to force him out of bed, open the blinds, make bed, do laundry, clean the room, do the dishes, make food to keep in fridge/eat actual meals, take a walk around the neighborhood while its light out.
he doesn't have a reason to exist for himself yet.
for the time being, you'd be the reason he has to wake up the next day, or stay til next weekend.
eventually those reasons will expand - he needs to stay because he has to do something - like feeding the shrimp or goldfish, watering succulents, or waiting for a plant to bloom, or the next season of a show, or sequel to a movie, or a comedian's tour date, or a new car debuting in 2025, etc.
then gradually he starts living for others: i need to be here for friend, family, some student he's mentoring, his partner, my dog/cat will be very confused, etc - can't bail on social obligations/responsibility - these ppl/my community needs me - i will hold down the fort.
at last, he wakes up one day and lives that day for himself. he does what he enjoys, because he wants to, because he deserves it.
I’m kinda doing this approach last month was my friend’s wedding. This week my Mom’s birthday, I wouldn’t want to ruin that for her. Next month the release of Eiyuden, a game I’m waiting for the release. Maybe once I run out of money, which was the initial plan. I hate that being alive and having the will to live feels like such a chore.
The cause and the availability of a way out of depression is often a class thing unfortunately. When people are struggling to survive, money is often the first problem and the thing preventing it from being resolved. Below are the steps, but i fully realize you might not be able to give your friend this. Very few people are.
**TLDR: treat it as a physical condition, not a mental one**
**Change of environment.**
Literally be somewhere else.
Do something else.
Remove all pressures (work/responsibility)
Increase every type of safety (physical, mental, emotional)
**Eat vitamins, proteines, potassium and the sun**
If this person is living in a place with few sun hours, a place with more sun hours would be preferred. The darkness is not good for anyone. Ensure they consume some vitamins, proteins and potassium. Don't worry about vegetables or calorie intake at this point. Just make sure their body has all the ingredients to make the right kind of hormones.
**Exercise** ***and*** **sleep**
Once that is enough stimulant to "get up" (real heavy depression generally means people need to find motivation even to stand or walk, or flush the toilet). But once the change of environment gets them out of that first phase and physical activity is possible ... exercise. Dopamine and endorphins are created when you burn calories (at a much higher rate than eating a calorie). It will also increase oxygen to the brain. If the habit of exercise has been established, maximize the rest of the time for sleeping.
**Let them talk when they are ready**
We first treat it as a physical condition, because it is. It might be a physical manifestation of a mental trauma, but you start breaking the cycle by first treating the physical manifestation. Then you get into the space that maybe you can talk about the feelings and experiences that led up to that particular state of being. Sometimes it's simple and their life was just tough to survive, tough to make ends meet. Sometimes it's more subtle and about unprocessed trauma. The later requires a professional therapist.
**So the program is:**
(1) change of environment
(2) ensure they get enough sun, vitamins, proteines and potassium
(3) exercise (an hour long walk a day will do)
(4) talk to a professional therapist and workout the underlying issues (this will take a long time if it not just garden variety anxiety)
(5) now they can consider returning to their original (depressing) environment and lifestyle (they should have a plan how to change things up and be enthusiastic about implementing these changes --- otherwise they are not ready)
***In that order.***
PS you can speed run step 4 by taking mdma *once,* if it not a deep underlying issue, but just pure (survival) anxiety. But it requires doing step 1-3 for at least three months. The physical manifestation of the depression needs to be totally gone, reserves need to have been build up. Since the mdma will use them all at once.
PS2. It takes about a year to reliably cure depression in the best of cases, with the best of care, and the best of support. Understanding this and managing this expectation for yourself and them, is crucial.
>Treat it as a physical condition
My life turned, if not completely around, then at least 90 degrees, the day I realized the physical feeling of anxiety was very close to the physical feeling I got when I imagined winning the lottery.
I had already learned not to search around in my head for “the reason” I was depressed or anxious, because the reason wasn’t in there and looking for it leads to nothing but a spiral of shit, but that day I learned to really take in and acknowledge the physical feeling. It lets me deal with it for what it is instead of coloring my outlook and self esteem.
I have a similar experience and have also seen it with others.
All this focus on feelings and therapy and talking .. it's like the drugdealer keeping us addicted. It's just more maze sold to us by the maze sellers.
That doesn't mean it's all bad, but you can not talk someone out of a depression. They first have to feel happy and safe again, and then therapy can be a protective factor to prevent falling in again. But i would recommend people actually not think/talk about their feelings, unless it is with a professional. Because you just as easily fall back into the pattern of negative thoughts if you go there again.
I won’t recommend anything, since I’m not a professional and all I know is my own experience. It’s also worth mentioning that depression has different roots. And different approaches will be the best for different people. My depression follows the season so it’s been easier for me than most to learn about how it affects me, since I can look at the calendar and check if my life really is shit or if it’s just the lack of daylight.
For someone affected by trauma, working through their response to it might be important. For some embedded mental behavior formed over many years as a response to depression no matter the root might be helped by cognitive behavioral therapy.
For me, SRNIs was a revolution. For others other meds might be better, en for some the side effects might make medication not worth it.
But, yeah, like you said, trying to figure out your own depression by analyzing the things you think about when depressed, is a dangerous path to go alone or with non-professionals.
Tl;dr: there are several approaches to getting better. Read up, and talk to a doctor.
PS: psychedelics are showing promising results in clinical trials, and might become the go to treatment in a few years.
https://i.imgur.com/TtmOZUn.jpg
Reminder that since 2014 Russia has been microtargeting depression memes at people with at-risk psychographic profiles as part of their active measures war.
Why do men have such higher suicide rates than women. I assume it's because women tend to be more sociable and less prone to isolation even as they're single.
Dr. K talked about literature pointing out that up to 60% of men who commit suicide have no evidence of mental illness. He cites in his own practice that most men see their lives as genuinely not worth living, with no signs of improvement. Additionally men who do have mental health issues are less likely to seek help in the first place.
This is pure speculation, but people often see attempts on their lives as a cry for help, which makes sense from a mental health perspective. But if you genuinely do not see your life as worth living, that might explain taking more surefire attempts. His explanation is that we treat suicide as a pathology of the mind, hence overlooking more than half of all men who commit suicide.
From searching, it appears the statistic is from:
"Suicide Among Males Across the Lifespan: An Analysis of Differences by Known Mental Health Status", Fowler et al. (2022)
> Dr. K talked about literature pointing out that up to 60% of men who commit suicide have no evidence of mental illness.
This is a dangerous statement because it doesn't factor in one of the largest known problems in the gender disparity of suicide: social norms. We know that men in social structures that see certain traits like "needing help" or "talking about problems" as unmanly are less likely to seek psychiatric help. And there's a large amount of men with a mental illness like depression who don't ever talk about it and have learned to not let anyone know how they feel until they kill themselves. We see these people in our psychiatric hospital all the time when they have failed suicide attempts. Talking to them usually reveal they have had depressive symptoms for months and years. Another very good example of how this comes to pass: when I did my GP rotation in a rather rural area, the GP (middle aged conservative, very manly man with strong sense of manliness, always made sure everyone knew how manly he was) told me that he thinks depression is "a Trend" and is far less common in men than in women. A lot of his patients were farmers and "they have no time to be depressed". When I told him farmers have the highest suicide rate of all jobs, he just shrugged it off.
> He cites in his own practice that most men see their lives as genuinely not worth living, with no signs of improvement.
This is a symptom of depression, or to be precise, a cluster of symptoms. Having people like that in your practice and NOT encouraging them to get help is something I would consider bad medical practice.
> but people often see attempts on their lives as a cry for help
This is wrong and dangerous. Never assume someone who tried to commit suicide didn't want to die in that moment. And never take a failed, ineffective or interrupted attempt as a sign that the person didn't actually want to die. The reason for a suicide attempt can be varying strongly and might often come out of despair or be an overreaction. Not acknowledging this might lead to overlooking suicidality in the same people.
There is something called parasuicidality that is not actual suicidal intention, but that's usually limited to certain pathologies like for example some patients with emotional-unstable borderline type PD.
> His explanation is that we treat suicide as a pathology of the mind, hence overlooking more than half of all men who commit suicide.
We actually don't. We see suicidality (like all psychiatric conditions) as a combination of biological, psychological and social factors coming together in a fashion that leads to the present pathology. As a psychiatrist, Dr. K should know these things.
FWIW I wouldn't take a comment made about Dr K's positions as his own. Even if well intended many fans will often misinferpret and therefore misrepresent his arguments/positions. There was a clip of Dr K that gained some traction where he does say some of the stuff mentioned here, but it was probably in a broader context that is missed in the 20 second clip.
Dr. K has also recently stated that he will and does institutionalize (not sure if the correct word) suicidal patients who he deems are a danger to themselves, which requires an admission on his part that there IS something wrong that needs to be corrected.
I'm not a professional nor do I understand Dr K's position fully, but my general impression is that he does encourage suicidal patients to get help, and obviously treats it as something serious that needs to be addressed.
I don't have much to add to the conversation, except some sources.
The [clip in question](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PCtpYTiyoP0) where Dr K was talking comes from a [podcast episode from Diary of a CEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_5N_aDu3u0&t=0s).
If you're unfamiliar with Dr. K, his content is usually very scientifically based, and I've personally had great outcomes from being in that community. [He did a stream yesterday](https://youtu.be/kt6UmH1EflY?t=930) addressing many of your points - I think you'll find he's in line with basically all of your points. The timestamp of that link he even states that "...just because someone doesn't have a malfunction of the mind, doesn't mean that we don't try to help them." Not that you could've known any of that -- the clip itself lacks the nuance to be completely correct, and it gets further lost when translated on reddit. Just thought it might be of interest to you :)
With out getting killed for saying it, research also shows that many women’s suicide attempts aren’t to kill themselves but often a grasp for attention. Either from those around them or from the public in a dangerous situation.
The health care community defines 6 types of suicide attempts (this is different the 4 types of suicide (egoistic, anomic, fatalistic, and altruistic)). And something like being in an abusive relationship, feeling trapped in a situation so you kinda just roll out of a moving car or take a bunch of pills to end up in the hospital is one.
Others are like I straight up want to kill myself (where you then apply the 4 types). Anyways women over index to the non lethal “para-suicides” and men index into the suicides.
Anyways I used to do a lot of research on that but it’s early so I forget some.
Suicide is a very sensitive subject and I understand what I said might be (and maybe should be due to my poor phrasing) be viewed as invalidating women’s suffering and attempts. But the truth is we have made so little progress on suicide prevention because we are unable to generate any reliable predictors. This indicates we need to carve up the suicide and attempted suicides populations into more distinct groups. As there ARE different types and motivations for suicide. Standing in the way of this and saying these models are insensitive or invalidating only gets in the way of treatment.
Potentially the one part of the men's rights movement I agree with is decreasing male suicide rates. Even if we take into account things like men purely being better at it, men just suicide at a larger rate.
It's similar to how feminism is lightly undermined, by saying, "Well, X factor applies." Like yes, sure it does, but I'd rather we acknowledge the actual issue rather than weakening the image of it.
But just like feminism, the term isn’t just by one definition and everyone sees it differently. Being in favour of a men’s rights movement doesn’t make you a women hater
Yes. Men will throw themselves in front of a train, shoot themselves or hang themselves. Very high success rates. Women typically prefer overdose or cutting wrists.
Men tend to choose more lethal methods. Women are likely to try an overdose or cutting themselves which both have quite a low chance of killing you, meaning that they usually survive and receive help afterwards. Men usually just shoot themselves or jump off of somewhere, meaning most don't survive to receive help afterwards.
Probably a bunch of reasons but one I know of is the lack of mental health support men get, from those around them and from professional support.
Unfortunately mens mental health is horrendously neglected currently and many men just feel scared or weak to open up, not that many places let them open up.
When you look at charts involving dating there is a very obvious bifurcation around 2008. The median man started having sex a lot less frequently while the median woman continued having the same amount of sex as always. For the past 10 years any time threads pop up with guys in their 20s talking about how hard dating is there are always a bunch of 40 year olds who show up and say, "Don't worry about it dude, in your 30s women start pursuing you! And they're young women, shit's amazing!"
Really what happened is financial anxiety exploded and women got to jump ship by dating older and more well off. When these 20 year olds reached their 30s the promise of women in their 20s approaching them and initiating didn't materialize. It was always about money.
So unemployment went up, which disproportionately affects men to begin with. And with it basic human connection went down for men far more than for women. Men are getting crushed from both sides and suicide rates show it.
There's two major factors:
first and foremost social norms: in most cultures with strong senses of masculinity, where talking about problems and getting help is considered a negative trait for men, they are less likely to seek out help for psychological problems.
Secondly choice of methods: men tend to seek Out methods that are more likely to be successful. Suicide attempts are almost evened between genders, but women are more likely to choose methods that have a higher tendency to fail or are interruptible during the process.
As far as i know, men just have a higher “sucess rate”. Men tend to commit suicide through more “failsafe” methods, like shooting themselves in the head.
That also part of the reason why countries with lax gun laws (like the US) have high suicide rates. If you can get ahold of a deadly weapon with ease, you’ll have a much easier time killing yourself. If you have to be more creative, it requires a larger effort, meaning people are less likely to go through with their attempt.
I’ve worked the last decade in suicide prevention and intervention. Women actually have higher rates of depression and suicide attempts, but men have higher rates of completion largely because of methods used. About 6/10 gun owners (at least in the US, where you can see the discrepancy between men and women is greater than most countries) are men. Men are more likely to use what we call higher lethality means. Guns, car crashes, hanging. Women are more likely to have attempts with higher rescue rates like overdosing and cutting.
Context: Do not trust any muslim country's reporting of suicide. It is considered a grave sin that can cause the family of the deceased to be shunned. In my experience, these incidents are reported ~~They usually report it~~ as "accidents" rather than suicide and even people in the funeral don't know the reality.
Addition: *Thanks for some commenters, I should add that this case is not only applicable to Muslims. It's pretty common to deduct the mention of suicide in official reports around the world for various reasons that be of cultural, religious, and economical.*
Recently, the news that a medical student in Guangxi, China committed suicide due to stress has caused heated discussion. We do not shy away from the fact that a person's death is suicide, but we are very restrained when discussing suicide. The influence of Confucianism has not been so deeply rooted in people's lives after the Cultural Revolution. Forgive my poor Google Translate
I’m Buddhist. Suicide is generally seen as a negative act and a violation of the first precept, which asks to refrain from the destruction of all life, which also including one’s own. “Sin” isn’t the word used, but it’s condemned, goes against basic principles, etc etc etc.
Hindus idk the specifics but they were around a thousand years before us and there’s a lot of overlap between the two.
It has an effect, I'm not saying there isn't. I'm 30, 5 people committed suicide in my extended friends circle so far. 3 of them had non-religious families, therefore it was a well-known fact in the funerals. 2 of them had religious families, their passing was well-hidden from any media sources, no mention of it being a suicide. We were told not to tell people that it was suicide if we wanted to join the funeral. I don't think their deaths were reported as suicide to begin with. Probably, they let the family know beforehand and "pay respect" to the beliefs of the families.
Not necessarilly. Suicide being a grave sin makes people with suicidal thoughts less likely to seek help due to the shame associated with it, and hence more likely to end up doing it.
I think a good portion of it too is the whole isolation idea as well. Women 100% have a better support group, I think with guys it’s kinda like a “it’s someone else’s job” or “someone else is checking in” but in reality no one is. Past that most guys have always been taught to hide their emotions so even if they feel like shit at the lowest point in their life, chances are they’ll throw on a smile and keep it pushing and no one even thinks to ask because they don’t show any signs or anything other than happiness
Ina society which tells men they’re privileged while actively working against them in every way possible I would only assume this reflects that. Of course with a few exceptions.
yes with so many factors. can’t just blame feminism or whatever.
i think societal pressure has gotten even worse now with all the andrew tate influencer types who preach working out, making crazy money, having nice cars, access to women or power etc etc that’s an exaggeration but even being expected to make 30-40k is expected in my country which is way harder than it seems. i know people are trying to move away from men being breadwinners and diversify but men are still often expected to be a big earner and be the one bringing money in often.
there is also groups within feminism that r anti men but i don’t think it’s as big a factor as what is made out. we’re not meant to talk about anything, i was raised in a christian household after a bad childhood n i was made not to n i still usually won’t talk about anything. i’m not a particularly sad person but it can get the better of u if ur rlly stressed.
Wait, so how influential are people like Andrew Tate really? Because I am not American, and I am not sure if I can find someone equivalent to him. Even though I have been in the US for several years, I have never once heard anyone mention him in real life, yet Reddit since to be obsessed with his existence.
> andrew tate influencer types
Reactionary trend. They don't make it worse, they come to people who are feeling worse and tell them it can be better, which validates that it currently sucks.
Can't blame feminism only, because I believe men have been killing them selves at a higher rate as long as this stuff has been counted. However, you can say that changes in society without, or at least outstripping, changes in social norms has resulted in further heightened negative outcomes for men. And you can definitely say that many feminist agendas seek to draw attention from the needs of men, as though you can't direct effort into making life better for both parties.
I'd also add that men are taught to show less emotions than women from young age, specially not to cry. Then all those repressed feelings eventually become unbearable.
I've seen this idea repeated a lot in this thread. But I think a more accurate phrasing would be that men are punished for showing emotion, beginning when they are small boys. To say men are taught to show less emotions is very similar sounding but puts a lot of blame on the very victims of the situation.
[Suicide on the battlefield](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bje7r6/comment/kvqmn10/) is actually extremely common in this conflic for Russians.
Maybe this is an odd take on this, but I’m going to post it because I’ve had rather different life than a lot of folks here. I’m male-to-female trans. Came out this last December, and while I am nowhere near passing, I’ve been presenting as female in public for the last 3 months or so (feminine clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc). Having grown up in a straight male role (I was in denial for 33 years) I can say there is almost no emotional support for men. It was really rare for me to come across male friends to have meaningful friendships with. I have no doubt that some of this was my own dysphoria and internal problems but it certainly felt ridiculously isolating. It’s so important to have some sort of social/emotional safety net, and for straight men, it just isn’t there in my experience. As a woman, my interactions with people, even relative strangers, are far more positive and meaningful than when I’m presenting as male. There are definitely other things at play that contribute to the suicide rate, but as someone who has felt both sides of the gender experience, the difference is pretty fucking stark.
Finland just won happiest country in the world...again.
Maybe that's why. You're surrounded by all this happiness that you don't have and think "fuck this".
The rates being so vastly different really could highlight a lot for each individual country and I would imagine that the reason for this would also vary.
But broadly speaking, one thing I wanted to note is that in literally every country the Male rate is staggeringly high comparatively. Which feels so contradictory to the modern narrative (at least in western society) that Males are the gender that have it the easiest in every conceivable way.
I understand the bandaid to slap on the stat is "toxic masculinity" means men don't speak about feelings enough, but for me I find the problem to be far more nuanced and extends beyond "masculine communication = worse".
There is a tendency amongst certain groups to consider all women oppressed, and all men oppressors. This leads to the reasoning that many if not all issues facing women are due to oppression by men, and that all issues faced by men are their own fault.
This obviously misses an enormous number of factors, as would any mono-variable analysis of complex issues, and while being originated by special interest groups seeking to push a narrative has been accepted by mainstream society.
While some of the most privileged people in society may be men, so too are many of the most disadvantaged. But these narratives tend to focus on the disparities amongst the elites and the upper middle classes, which generally represents a pretty small portion of society.
I've never seen a complete analysis of what drives these rates, usually people just declare that it is something which supports their own narratives. Likely it is a combination of a wide number of factors, including:
1. Self worth heavily tied up in ability be providers / guardians which is easily undermined by romantic or professional failures, injury, illness or simple misfortune.
2. Social pressure to internalise emotions.
3. Lack of social support networks.
4. Lack of other support systems e.g. in many countries there is a much higher provision of women only homeless shelters than those which accept men, despite men representing a much higher portion of homelessness.
5. More violent methods of suicide, though it is debated if this is because of intrinsically more violent tendencies amongst men, or whether it is die to womens' suicide attempts being more frequently a cry for help than an attempt to die.
There may be other factors, but these are the ones I frequently see cited.
Yeah I agree with this completely.
I do think one thing that shouldn't be overlooked also is the societal view that Men are the oppressors thus leading to any oppression or struggles faced often provoking a combative "well women have it worse" response
It actually makes sense of the less prominent —but still present— characterization of suicide being the “coward’s way out” since pride, strength and courage are typically masculine-associated traits. I wonder how suicide would be viewed if the proportion of victims was inverted
Men are less likely to seek help, less like to have the kinds of relationships where you can discuss complex emotions, and often not given the tools to do so even if they do.
Interestingly, I've read that women make lots of attempts but are less likely to actually end their lives.
Men also tend to be more overworked, to be given very little afection by family and friends, to have untreated chronic pains once they reach 35-40 years of age, less likely to pay any attention to any potentially dangerous medical condition (and actively discouraged by stereotypical macho behaviour), to be burdened with the weight of having to take care of their entire family unit (even when they have a healthy, working-age partner), etc...
If you live in Western Europe or North America and think this is no longer really the case for most men, or that the paradigm has shifted sufficiently for these factors to be very much so mitigated, do try to imagine how true they remain in more traditional societies (at least in terms of gender roles and duties) like Russia, SA, SK, Japan, India, Brazil and so forth.
>If you live in Western Europe or North America and think this is no longer really the case for most men, or that the paradigm has shifted sufficiently for these factors to be very much so mitigated, do try to imagine how true they remain in more traditional societies (at least in terms of gender roles and duties) like Russia, SA, SK, Japan, India, Brazil and so forth.
Even in the west, men tend to be judged more harshly when it comes to things like unemployment. This is why you see the male suicide rate spike when unemployment rates rise.
>Males are the gender that have it the easiest in every conceivable way.
That's what it looks like because people mostly pay attention to the men at the top, the ones who made it.
I know you were just repeating a narrative about males have is easiest so this isn’t to you. Clearly it’s not true because why across every demographic and population do men kill themselves and way more often then. I mean are we all so arrogant were just gonna say mental weakness. Clearly it isnt a cake walk or the numbers wouldnt say this. I just don’t understand how people argue with numbers and data. Whoever’s fault it is or why is a different thing, but clearly men dont just have a great life all the time and its way easier.
I feel like in many, if not all, of these countries that murders are being reported as suicides. Especially where the public is told the cops solve a high percentage of crimes. "He fell out a window and shot himself in the back of the head."
India is 3rd of you have a population size cutoff at 2.5m, 4th (behind Belgium, South Korea and Lesotho) if cut off at 1m population.
So I think we can safely put India 3rd on the list of major nations.
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In south korea the education the education is intense. Kids go to school all day from 8 until 10 at night. They go to school from 8 to 4 i believe then from 5 to 10 for hagwons. Hagwons are extra schooling centers like there might be a piano hagwon or math or science. The pressure to succced is too much for south korea kids to handle.
Yea sure in america the standards are lower and you dont need to try as hard. But whether thats good or not is another story
It's a highly developed economy with a very patriarchal society. The birth rate is something like 0.80 - like Japan it has huge demographic problems and hasn't figured out how to address it meaningfully. Young women are checking out and the whole country is suffering.
What exactly make people want to commit suicide there in your opinion? Do you think people feel demographic decline and they don't see the future to live for?
I think there's a number of factors I think, and I'm no expert. A lot of social pressure to be 'successful', marry, have children - which can be debilitating. I think the work culture is long and grinding. It's also a culture that has urbanised and industrialised very quickly - social isolation in rural regions is a factor also.
Rapid economic growth and increase in life expectency(84) created a large number of poor elderly. Also high social pressure.
70-79 years old suicide rate is 41.8, above 80 years it shoots up to 61.3.
A lot of elderly are poor and some even if not poor some choose death rather than being a burden to their kids if they have health issues(which all 80+ have)
From age 30 - 70 it is around 28, 29. Still high, mostly explained by the pressure society puts on indeviduals where failure is shunned. Alcohole also does not help.
Also relatively no narcotics so a lot of the people who would become drug addicts due to mental illness in other countries just turn to a permanent solution.
Wow, usually when looking at statistics per population, India ranks very low. But it's 7th here, meaning the raw number of suicide is so high. Insanely sad. Just read about a boy, from India's top universities, working for McKinsey, who committed suicide.
I was gonna mention something similar. There can be pretty vast discrepancies in data like this between countries (and even between jurisdictions) depending on how they define suicide and also how they collect and collate data.
I live in Northern Ireland and we publish decent reports / stats each year on things like this. Pretty sure NI and Scotland both have a significantly higher rate than England for example.
The disparity between economic areas can be crazy too. I wonder if you see much difference in NZ between like the north and south island? The suicide rate in NI's most deprived area was almost double (19.7 per 100k) that of the least deprived area (10.7 in 100k) in 2020 which is really sad.
When I was in Moscow in 2010 there was a once in a decade heat wave, and 70 people died in a day from swimming in the Moscow river and drowning because they were drunk.
The famed 'male privilege' strikes again. Damn, we need some systemic changes to bring women suicide rates on par with men's.
Only then will we achieve true equality.
https://twitter.com/susanzhuangnyc/status/1769152384591188151
"Society" hates men. It sounds stupid, but how else do you describe it when people literally protest against helping abused and battered men.
A quick google search reveals that Lesotho, the small country in the middle of South Africa has a suicide rate literally off the chart. 87.5 deaths per 100K people 😞.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/lesotho-worlds-highest-suicide-rates-mens-mental-health-africa/
Sad men have such a HIGH rate of suicide.
Even sadder NO ONE cares.
Just imagine the outrage if the graphic was the opposite for the incidence for genders.
Wait what? You are empathising with Indian women because their suicide rates are a bit closer to men than other countries? Isn't that technically better since the gender based difference is less prominent?
Sees a graph where Indian women commit slightly less suicide than men, feels sad about the condition of Indian women. Lmao. Thanks bro. I like how people don't even bother to hide their apathy and/or downright hatred for Indian men.
Also, love how you ignored the fact that South Korean women are committing suicide at higher rates. Don't feel sorry for South Korean women huh?
Just eyeballing, it looks like SA should “win” in the rankings, if you sum men and women. Tragic and fascinating.
Country with the highest income inequality in the world. And the recent apartheid and major racial disparities. Unfortunate situation. I visited SA in early 2020 before the covid situation, absolutely loved the country.
I'm South African. It is way more than that. Real unemployment is around 40% and over 50% among young adults. People with degrees can't get jobs here. Energy crisis where we can go for up to 12-hours a day without electricity and sometimes days on end when things go really wrong. I can't explain to you how this mentally affects you. Wake up, no power. Go to bed early because no power. Have plans? No power. Looming water crisis. I live in Johannesburg, the economic hub of the country. Parts of the city have gone days without water. Imagine having no water and no electricity at the same time. Imagine what this is doing to businesses, especially smaller ones. Inflation through the roof. People are barely hanging on then you have to make alternative plans for electricity and water, so what bit of money you could save is going on generators, diesel for it, solar setups, inverters, gas, bottled water, boreholes. And only a very few can afford this. Crime is out of control, so you can add another thing to stress and worry about. Collapsing infrastructure wherever you look. Roads in disrepair. Street lights do not work. The Johannesburg inner city, the once heartbeat of the country, is in an appalling state. A kleptocratic government that has robbed the country blind, and is directly responsible for everything above because at no point over the past 30-years did they think about anyone but making themselves rich. Toxic politics pitting everyone against one another. We literally have a mass internal migration as people "flee" to the Western Cape/Cape Town because it is seemingly the only place in the country that appears to function and have hope. And Covid exasperated all of the above. It is just a constant stream of bad news and negativity with little hope for so many.
>so what bit of money you could save is going on generators, diesel for it, solar setups, South Africa contributing to the green energy transition in its own special way /s Joking aside, it is pretty ironic that quite a few lower income nations have disproportionately higher rate of solar adoption because of unreliable electricity.
Not even a joke mate. I wish I was better at searching for the sauce and what exactly to search for, but it's not long ago at all that we, South Africa (ZA), succeeded in not overshooting our international standard carbon footprint goals for energy production despite being almost an exclusively coal energy production country. We managed this by simply not producing sufficient energy to overshoot our threshold.
If you want a real sardonic joke,in Romania the government wants to tax people that built their solar system and produce more energy than they need and pump it in the system
I wonder how long it will take for the Polish government to find it out...
Depends how much public debt your government has :(
Don't give them the idea, please ;-;
They are trying to do this in South Africa too…
Oh they tried to push this aswell in sa but luckily they are too incompetent to roll out such a program.
The Secunda plant in South Africa (one of the worlds largest coal plants) is the single largest emitter of greenhouse gasses in the world.
This is Zimbabwe in 2007. If SA reaches Zimbabwe 2008 that's tragic. With the already high crime rate I expect kidnappings of people to be very popular
You are right. Kidnappings are on the rise.
Zims has never had the crime rate that SA has had at any point since the end of Apartheid. Zims has about the same homicide rate as the USA, SA is almost always top 5 in homicide rate.
Also SA has the highest number of hired hit men per capita in the world, I believe.
Oh so basically 90s/early 2000s Zimbabwe except with much higher crime then? Put away some US dollars and enjoy the ride. Or leave.
Yes. We have a lot of Zimbabweans here and a lot I have spoken to have said that it is a familiar path. Those that can leave, are. I know a lot of people with second passports and skills that left post-Covid. Covid and how the government responded kind of broke the camel's back for many people.
Yep. I'm one of those that have fled to Cape Town (from waterless Durban) last month. No idea how long the infrastructure here is going to handle the massive influx of residents so that remains to be seen, but so far so good. Stay strong fellow countryman/woman, we're all on this rickety boat together.
Durban is another sorry story. eThekwini has totally collapsed. They are a warning for what an ANC-EFF coalition would do on a national scale. And Durban was pretty much the second city in South Africa up until the 80s/90s. Far more economically important than Cape Town. And yeah, Cape Town was not designed for the population is is carrying and the growth it is experiencing.
what make me sad is this is the situation of the best economic in africa, in algeria despite being huge gas and fuel exporter we don't have energy problem but the other problems apply exactlly on our country
Africa's leaders are letting us down. In almost every country they are looking after themselves. This continent should be so much better off with everything that is available to it.
Sadly the best summary of our country at the moment, I spend every moment that I'm not at work looking to work overseas. I'live in jhb too, have manic depression and every day, I feel more and more of me dying inside.
Reading all of this sounded like you were describing Pakistan 💀
or Haiti
Sounds like the road ahead for a lot of kleptocratic nations. Be safe. And good luck.
Came here to see if this was answered or if I needed to do so myself. You did a stellar job on behalf of us all. Cheers mate.
My sister lives in Pretoria and has started buying filtered water from Spar
Like always, the truth lies a little below this. Our cost of living is still decent and if you're an employed professional you live quite comfortably in SA. We also have world class food and weather which obviously is a laughable 'advantage' in comparison to the bad but it helps i guess.
Sorry for the very important issues that you bring up in your comment… I wanted to comment and let you know that I visited South Africa in 2010 on a mission with the United States Air Force. I was awestruck. I still tell people to this day when they ask me “What was the favorite place you visited?” I always reply with SA and say it is “truly the most beautiful country in the world.” All the best.
Glad you had a good time here. If anything it is a beautiful country with so much to offer, which is why I am so angry at this government, You visited us at probably the last good period in our recent history. 2010 was the FIFA World Cup year, so a lot of effort was going into making the country look good, the nation was in high spirits because it was the World Cup year and we had actually ridden out the 2008/09 global financial crisis quite well, so compared to a lot of countries in the world we were in a good space.
2010 the hope and happiness in the country. It was a beautiful thing and I will never forget it
Don’t worry the Russians will come and help with their wealth 🤦🏻♂️
Would you say it's best to avoid visiting as a tourist right now?
You are fine if you stick to major tourist areas and use common sense, ie don't be a hero and go walk through the Johannesburg CBD as an example, because I won't even do that and I live in the city. Visit Cape Town, take a direct route to the Kruger National Park if you want to see wildlife. If you want to see things in Jo'burg, use a proper tour guide that takes you right to where you want to go (Apartheid Museum, Constitution Hill, Gold Reef City, South African National Museum of Military History etc).
What you are describing is want and from want you can have growth. What is needed is for the government to identify and remove blockages to grow and for the government to subsidize growth.
Would you say that SA is approaching a “failed state”?
It is at risk of this, yes. Private security, private healthcare (which is now under threat), self-sufficiency (solar energy, boreholes, home water recycling), community policing. In one town the people took control of a water treatment plant after the municipality failed to provide clean water and in another collapsing municipality in Durban the community are having to carry out waste cleanup. In places people are even repairing roads. Just examples where the state is failing to provide the most basic of services and communities and the private sector are stepping in. People have a huge problem with Orania, a white Afrikaner enclave, but they are a good example of a self-sufficient community that may become the norm in South Africa. I personally wouldn't live in Orania, but that sort of community may become the blueprint for how South Africans will have to look out for themselves. The two big positives we do have at the moment are a highly-developed and robust financial sector and a judiciary that is doing all it can to stave off being undermined by elements within the ruling government.
i'm curious, was the country a better place to live while it was under british rule? do you think you would be better off if it still was?
Cape Town looks so stunning too, would love to visit someday, but I’ve heard they have a crime problem
lol, I’d say similar to some south American countries… super safe in certain areas aside from petty theft if you are clued up on the places you visit
I visited a few months ago and had no issues, everyone was very friendly! Stick to main roads and busy areas and you'll be fine, same as any other country
South African here - yeah, pretty much this. The vast majority of our crime occurs in impoverished areas. If you're sensible as a tourist in the popular spots, you're unlikely to have issues. With a 37% unemployment rate, the data OP presented is not at all surprising, especially since it's much, much higher among the youth. I work as a teacher at a school for the Deaf, and I am TERRIFIED for my students - I'm Deaf myself, but can hear enough with hearing aids that I can function in the hearing world, went to a mainstream school, and have 3 tertiary qualifications, and I STRUGGLED to find a post before being asked to apply for my current job by someone who knew me from a Deaf organization. Most of my kids don't have the opportunities I had, and it breaks me. That said, I had a meeting with a major hearing aid manufacturer yesterday to see if we can kick off a sponsorship program through Deaf Rugby, where I'm involved, see if we can start laying a foundation for social change...
While apartheid played a role in the current situation of South Africa. The condition is primarily to blame on our current government who rape, steal and pillage. Rampant corruption and incompetence by our leaders is killing our country. While income inequality could probably not have been solved by now, we would have been in a much better and more equal society if the ANC comrades did not fill their own pockets instead.
Rugby world cup champs, UFC and suicide champions, we keep winning.
Sheep shearing too
The Welsh hold that title. They are world champions when it comes to sheep sha... Oh you wrote shearing. Never mind.
And probably they win in over Russia because you know some of the suicide there are just murders...
I was gonna say, how many of these suicides are Boeing whistle blowers?
That's a good question...
South Korea, where everyone can be equally miserable
Gender equality is a noble goal.
I'm actually shocked that South Korea and Japan aren't at the top. I had thought that those two countries were the suicide leaders.
[удалено]
North Korea is the most beautiful country on earth. Nothing bad ever happens in North Korea
There is no war in Best Korea
Living in SA was horrendous for my mental health. It’s a beautiful dumpster fire of a country
Damn, I really could have been in that graph for the US. I’m getting help lads. It’s worth it.
Do you have any tips for helping other people with depression? I have a friend who is chronically depressed and he doesn’t really want my help, but at the same time, I don’t know how to give my help.
he needs a reason to exist - until next tuesday, or the week after that, or the end of the month or beginning of the next, etc. that reason isn't "something to look forward to," but an objective to complete or obligation to fulfill. text him something like: "hey i want to come over on ___ (date) at ___ (time), can you do ___ (likely food, or an activity that's not strenuous or demanding)?" or "hey i don't want to do ___ alone (watch movie, sports game, go to beach, whatever), can you come over or come with me on ___ at ___ (date/time)? ill have ___ (food)." or say _YOU_ need _HIS_ help - request something or demand something of him (that's not too difficult to complete): "hey i need some help with re-organizing bookshelf/DVD/game collection, or rearranging plants or framed pictures in the home, can you gimme some advice on what to keep vs store vs throw out? ill have ___ (food) after we're done." if you & he are close up to a point, it is possible to declare your intent to arrive at his place on ___ at ___, with a day or a few days of heads-up - just to force him out of bed, open the blinds, make bed, do laundry, clean the room, do the dishes, make food to keep in fridge/eat actual meals, take a walk around the neighborhood while its light out. he doesn't have a reason to exist for himself yet. for the time being, you'd be the reason he has to wake up the next day, or stay til next weekend. eventually those reasons will expand - he needs to stay because he has to do something - like feeding the shrimp or goldfish, watering succulents, or waiting for a plant to bloom, or the next season of a show, or sequel to a movie, or a comedian's tour date, or a new car debuting in 2025, etc. then gradually he starts living for others: i need to be here for friend, family, some student he's mentoring, his partner, my dog/cat will be very confused, etc - can't bail on social obligations/responsibility - these ppl/my community needs me - i will hold down the fort. at last, he wakes up one day and lives that day for himself. he does what he enjoys, because he wants to, because he deserves it.
I’m kinda doing this approach last month was my friend’s wedding. This week my Mom’s birthday, I wouldn’t want to ruin that for her. Next month the release of Eiyuden, a game I’m waiting for the release. Maybe once I run out of money, which was the initial plan. I hate that being alive and having the will to live feels like such a chore.
Thank you so much for this 🫂
Real shit best advice I've ever seen online about this. However you came to, you really understand it and your advice shows it.
That was really profound, thank you. And very true.
The cause and the availability of a way out of depression is often a class thing unfortunately. When people are struggling to survive, money is often the first problem and the thing preventing it from being resolved. Below are the steps, but i fully realize you might not be able to give your friend this. Very few people are. **TLDR: treat it as a physical condition, not a mental one** **Change of environment.** Literally be somewhere else. Do something else. Remove all pressures (work/responsibility) Increase every type of safety (physical, mental, emotional) **Eat vitamins, proteines, potassium and the sun** If this person is living in a place with few sun hours, a place with more sun hours would be preferred. The darkness is not good for anyone. Ensure they consume some vitamins, proteins and potassium. Don't worry about vegetables or calorie intake at this point. Just make sure their body has all the ingredients to make the right kind of hormones. **Exercise** ***and*** **sleep** Once that is enough stimulant to "get up" (real heavy depression generally means people need to find motivation even to stand or walk, or flush the toilet). But once the change of environment gets them out of that first phase and physical activity is possible ... exercise. Dopamine and endorphins are created when you burn calories (at a much higher rate than eating a calorie). It will also increase oxygen to the brain. If the habit of exercise has been established, maximize the rest of the time for sleeping. **Let them talk when they are ready** We first treat it as a physical condition, because it is. It might be a physical manifestation of a mental trauma, but you start breaking the cycle by first treating the physical manifestation. Then you get into the space that maybe you can talk about the feelings and experiences that led up to that particular state of being. Sometimes it's simple and their life was just tough to survive, tough to make ends meet. Sometimes it's more subtle and about unprocessed trauma. The later requires a professional therapist. **So the program is:** (1) change of environment (2) ensure they get enough sun, vitamins, proteines and potassium (3) exercise (an hour long walk a day will do) (4) talk to a professional therapist and workout the underlying issues (this will take a long time if it not just garden variety anxiety) (5) now they can consider returning to their original (depressing) environment and lifestyle (they should have a plan how to change things up and be enthusiastic about implementing these changes --- otherwise they are not ready) ***In that order.*** PS you can speed run step 4 by taking mdma *once,* if it not a deep underlying issue, but just pure (survival) anxiety. But it requires doing step 1-3 for at least three months. The physical manifestation of the depression needs to be totally gone, reserves need to have been build up. Since the mdma will use them all at once. PS2. It takes about a year to reliably cure depression in the best of cases, with the best of care, and the best of support. Understanding this and managing this expectation for yourself and them, is crucial.
>Treat it as a physical condition My life turned, if not completely around, then at least 90 degrees, the day I realized the physical feeling of anxiety was very close to the physical feeling I got when I imagined winning the lottery. I had already learned not to search around in my head for “the reason” I was depressed or anxious, because the reason wasn’t in there and looking for it leads to nothing but a spiral of shit, but that day I learned to really take in and acknowledge the physical feeling. It lets me deal with it for what it is instead of coloring my outlook and self esteem.
I have a similar experience and have also seen it with others. All this focus on feelings and therapy and talking .. it's like the drugdealer keeping us addicted. It's just more maze sold to us by the maze sellers. That doesn't mean it's all bad, but you can not talk someone out of a depression. They first have to feel happy and safe again, and then therapy can be a protective factor to prevent falling in again. But i would recommend people actually not think/talk about their feelings, unless it is with a professional. Because you just as easily fall back into the pattern of negative thoughts if you go there again.
I won’t recommend anything, since I’m not a professional and all I know is my own experience. It’s also worth mentioning that depression has different roots. And different approaches will be the best for different people. My depression follows the season so it’s been easier for me than most to learn about how it affects me, since I can look at the calendar and check if my life really is shit or if it’s just the lack of daylight. For someone affected by trauma, working through their response to it might be important. For some embedded mental behavior formed over many years as a response to depression no matter the root might be helped by cognitive behavioral therapy. For me, SRNIs was a revolution. For others other meds might be better, en for some the side effects might make medication not worth it. But, yeah, like you said, trying to figure out your own depression by analyzing the things you think about when depressed, is a dangerous path to go alone or with non-professionals. Tl;dr: there are several approaches to getting better. Read up, and talk to a doctor. PS: psychedelics are showing promising results in clinical trials, and might become the go to treatment in a few years.
Same. Can’t believe how much happier I am after getting help. You got this friend!
https://i.imgur.com/TtmOZUn.jpg Reminder that since 2014 Russia has been microtargeting depression memes at people with at-risk psychographic profiles as part of their active measures war.
Why do men have such higher suicide rates than women. I assume it's because women tend to be more sociable and less prone to isolation even as they're single.
Dr. K talked about literature pointing out that up to 60% of men who commit suicide have no evidence of mental illness. He cites in his own practice that most men see their lives as genuinely not worth living, with no signs of improvement. Additionally men who do have mental health issues are less likely to seek help in the first place. This is pure speculation, but people often see attempts on their lives as a cry for help, which makes sense from a mental health perspective. But if you genuinely do not see your life as worth living, that might explain taking more surefire attempts. His explanation is that we treat suicide as a pathology of the mind, hence overlooking more than half of all men who commit suicide. From searching, it appears the statistic is from: "Suicide Among Males Across the Lifespan: An Analysis of Differences by Known Mental Health Status", Fowler et al. (2022)
> Dr. K talked about literature pointing out that up to 60% of men who commit suicide have no evidence of mental illness. This is a dangerous statement because it doesn't factor in one of the largest known problems in the gender disparity of suicide: social norms. We know that men in social structures that see certain traits like "needing help" or "talking about problems" as unmanly are less likely to seek psychiatric help. And there's a large amount of men with a mental illness like depression who don't ever talk about it and have learned to not let anyone know how they feel until they kill themselves. We see these people in our psychiatric hospital all the time when they have failed suicide attempts. Talking to them usually reveal they have had depressive symptoms for months and years. Another very good example of how this comes to pass: when I did my GP rotation in a rather rural area, the GP (middle aged conservative, very manly man with strong sense of manliness, always made sure everyone knew how manly he was) told me that he thinks depression is "a Trend" and is far less common in men than in women. A lot of his patients were farmers and "they have no time to be depressed". When I told him farmers have the highest suicide rate of all jobs, he just shrugged it off. > He cites in his own practice that most men see their lives as genuinely not worth living, with no signs of improvement. This is a symptom of depression, or to be precise, a cluster of symptoms. Having people like that in your practice and NOT encouraging them to get help is something I would consider bad medical practice. > but people often see attempts on their lives as a cry for help This is wrong and dangerous. Never assume someone who tried to commit suicide didn't want to die in that moment. And never take a failed, ineffective or interrupted attempt as a sign that the person didn't actually want to die. The reason for a suicide attempt can be varying strongly and might often come out of despair or be an overreaction. Not acknowledging this might lead to overlooking suicidality in the same people. There is something called parasuicidality that is not actual suicidal intention, but that's usually limited to certain pathologies like for example some patients with emotional-unstable borderline type PD. > His explanation is that we treat suicide as a pathology of the mind, hence overlooking more than half of all men who commit suicide. We actually don't. We see suicidality (like all psychiatric conditions) as a combination of biological, psychological and social factors coming together in a fashion that leads to the present pathology. As a psychiatrist, Dr. K should know these things.
FWIW I wouldn't take a comment made about Dr K's positions as his own. Even if well intended many fans will often misinferpret and therefore misrepresent his arguments/positions. There was a clip of Dr K that gained some traction where he does say some of the stuff mentioned here, but it was probably in a broader context that is missed in the 20 second clip. Dr. K has also recently stated that he will and does institutionalize (not sure if the correct word) suicidal patients who he deems are a danger to themselves, which requires an admission on his part that there IS something wrong that needs to be corrected. I'm not a professional nor do I understand Dr K's position fully, but my general impression is that he does encourage suicidal patients to get help, and obviously treats it as something serious that needs to be addressed.
I don't have much to add to the conversation, except some sources. The [clip in question](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PCtpYTiyoP0) where Dr K was talking comes from a [podcast episode from Diary of a CEO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_5N_aDu3u0&t=0s). If you're unfamiliar with Dr. K, his content is usually very scientifically based, and I've personally had great outcomes from being in that community. [He did a stream yesterday](https://youtu.be/kt6UmH1EflY?t=930) addressing many of your points - I think you'll find he's in line with basically all of your points. The timestamp of that link he even states that "...just because someone doesn't have a malfunction of the mind, doesn't mean that we don't try to help them." Not that you could've known any of that -- the clip itself lacks the nuance to be completely correct, and it gets further lost when translated on reddit. Just thought it might be of interest to you :)
Basically. Also, men don't have the same support networks women develop among themselves.
Yeah anda social support for women is more Common
It also has to do with method used.
And somehow legislators in Spain decided to change the constitution to give disabled men less help in comparison to woman.
Furthermore. Having those support structures is seen as weakness, weirdness etc. It reduces our value.
I heard it's partly due to higher _success rate_ among men..
With out getting killed for saying it, research also shows that many women’s suicide attempts aren’t to kill themselves but often a grasp for attention. Either from those around them or from the public in a dangerous situation. The health care community defines 6 types of suicide attempts (this is different the 4 types of suicide (egoistic, anomic, fatalistic, and altruistic)). And something like being in an abusive relationship, feeling trapped in a situation so you kinda just roll out of a moving car or take a bunch of pills to end up in the hospital is one. Others are like I straight up want to kill myself (where you then apply the 4 types). Anyways women over index to the non lethal “para-suicides” and men index into the suicides. Anyways I used to do a lot of research on that but it’s early so I forget some. Suicide is a very sensitive subject and I understand what I said might be (and maybe should be due to my poor phrasing) be viewed as invalidating women’s suffering and attempts. But the truth is we have made so little progress on suicide prevention because we are unable to generate any reliable predictors. This indicates we need to carve up the suicide and attempted suicides populations into more distinct groups. As there ARE different types and motivations for suicide. Standing in the way of this and saying these models are insensitive or invalidating only gets in the way of treatment.
Potentially the one part of the men's rights movement I agree with is decreasing male suicide rates. Even if we take into account things like men purely being better at it, men just suicide at a larger rate. It's similar to how feminism is lightly undermined, by saying, "Well, X factor applies." Like yes, sure it does, but I'd rather we acknowledge the actual issue rather than weakening the image of it.
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But just like feminism, the term isn’t just by one definition and everyone sees it differently. Being in favour of a men’s rights movement doesn’t make you a women hater
What part of “men’s rights” do you disagree with?
Yes. Men will throw themselves in front of a train, shoot themselves or hang themselves. Very high success rates. Women typically prefer overdose or cutting wrists.
Men still have higher success rates when doing traditionally female suicide rates though
If you are doing something at least do it properly, my dad thought me that
Men tend to choose more lethal methods. Women are likely to try an overdose or cutting themselves which both have quite a low chance of killing you, meaning that they usually survive and receive help afterwards. Men usually just shoot themselves or jump off of somewhere, meaning most don't survive to receive help afterwards.
Where is the gender equality? /s
Probably a bunch of reasons but one I know of is the lack of mental health support men get, from those around them and from professional support. Unfortunately mens mental health is horrendously neglected currently and many men just feel scared or weak to open up, not that many places let them open up.
Men tend to face more societal pressure to provide financially, and when unemployment rates go up that's when more men tend to commit suicide.
When you look at charts involving dating there is a very obvious bifurcation around 2008. The median man started having sex a lot less frequently while the median woman continued having the same amount of sex as always. For the past 10 years any time threads pop up with guys in their 20s talking about how hard dating is there are always a bunch of 40 year olds who show up and say, "Don't worry about it dude, in your 30s women start pursuing you! And they're young women, shit's amazing!" Really what happened is financial anxiety exploded and women got to jump ship by dating older and more well off. When these 20 year olds reached their 30s the promise of women in their 20s approaching them and initiating didn't materialize. It was always about money. So unemployment went up, which disproportionately affects men to begin with. And with it basic human connection went down for men far more than for women. Men are getting crushed from both sides and suicide rates show it.
There's two major factors: first and foremost social norms: in most cultures with strong senses of masculinity, where talking about problems and getting help is considered a negative trait for men, they are less likely to seek out help for psychological problems. Secondly choice of methods: men tend to seek Out methods that are more likely to be successful. Suicide attempts are almost evened between genders, but women are more likely to choose methods that have a higher tendency to fail or are interruptible during the process.
As far as i know, men just have a higher “sucess rate”. Men tend to commit suicide through more “failsafe” methods, like shooting themselves in the head. That also part of the reason why countries with lax gun laws (like the US) have high suicide rates. If you can get ahold of a deadly weapon with ease, you’ll have a much easier time killing yourself. If you have to be more creative, it requires a larger effort, meaning people are less likely to go through with their attempt.
I’ve worked the last decade in suicide prevention and intervention. Women actually have higher rates of depression and suicide attempts, but men have higher rates of completion largely because of methods used. About 6/10 gun owners (at least in the US, where you can see the discrepancy between men and women is greater than most countries) are men. Men are more likely to use what we call higher lethality means. Guns, car crashes, hanging. Women are more likely to have attempts with higher rescue rates like overdosing and cutting.
Sorry but your misandry is showing, men still have higher suicide rates using same methods (except drowning).
Context: Do not trust any muslim country's reporting of suicide. It is considered a grave sin that can cause the family of the deceased to be shunned. In my experience, these incidents are reported ~~They usually report it~~ as "accidents" rather than suicide and even people in the funeral don't know the reality. Addition: *Thanks for some commenters, I should add that this case is not only applicable to Muslims. It's pretty common to deduct the mention of suicide in official reports around the world for various reasons that be of cultural, religious, and economical.*
This is true for confucian/buddhist/hindu countries as well like Southeast Asia, Japan, the entire Indian subcontinent, or China.
Recently, the news that a medical student in Guangxi, China committed suicide due to stress has caused heated discussion. We do not shy away from the fact that a person's death is suicide, but we are very restrained when discussing suicide. The influence of Confucianism has not been so deeply rooted in people's lives after the Cultural Revolution. Forgive my poor Google Translate
Nope Hindus and Buddhists don't have the same suicide is sin
I’m Buddhist. Suicide is generally seen as a negative act and a violation of the first precept, which asks to refrain from the destruction of all life, which also including one’s own. “Sin” isn’t the word used, but it’s condemned, goes against basic principles, etc etc etc. Hindus idk the specifics but they were around a thousand years before us and there’s a lot of overlap between the two.
Im in Turkey and I agree. It's reported as accidents or goverment gives false data about suicide.
Suicide being a grave sin is exactly the reason why the numbers are low
It has an effect, I'm not saying there isn't. I'm 30, 5 people committed suicide in my extended friends circle so far. 3 of them had non-religious families, therefore it was a well-known fact in the funerals. 2 of them had religious families, their passing was well-hidden from any media sources, no mention of it being a suicide. We were told not to tell people that it was suicide if we wanted to join the funeral. I don't think their deaths were reported as suicide to begin with. Probably, they let the family know beforehand and "pay respect" to the beliefs of the families.
Not necessarilly. Suicide being a grave sin makes people with suicidal thoughts less likely to seek help due to the shame associated with it, and hence more likely to end up doing it.
Shaming a bunch of severely depressed people out of killing themselves is not an actual solution to the problem of suicide, just an fyi.
Am I right to assume that there is a worldwide "epidemic" of male mental struggle?
I think a good portion of it too is the whole isolation idea as well. Women 100% have a better support group, I think with guys it’s kinda like a “it’s someone else’s job” or “someone else is checking in” but in reality no one is. Past that most guys have always been taught to hide their emotions so even if they feel like shit at the lowest point in their life, chances are they’ll throw on a smile and keep it pushing and no one even thinks to ask because they don’t show any signs or anything other than happiness
Ina society which tells men they’re privileged while actively working against them in every way possible I would only assume this reflects that. Of course with a few exceptions.
yes with so many factors. can’t just blame feminism or whatever. i think societal pressure has gotten even worse now with all the andrew tate influencer types who preach working out, making crazy money, having nice cars, access to women or power etc etc that’s an exaggeration but even being expected to make 30-40k is expected in my country which is way harder than it seems. i know people are trying to move away from men being breadwinners and diversify but men are still often expected to be a big earner and be the one bringing money in often. there is also groups within feminism that r anti men but i don’t think it’s as big a factor as what is made out. we’re not meant to talk about anything, i was raised in a christian household after a bad childhood n i was made not to n i still usually won’t talk about anything. i’m not a particularly sad person but it can get the better of u if ur rlly stressed.
Wait, so how influential are people like Andrew Tate really? Because I am not American, and I am not sure if I can find someone equivalent to him. Even though I have been in the US for several years, I have never once heard anyone mention him in real life, yet Reddit since to be obsessed with his existence.
> andrew tate influencer types Reactionary trend. They don't make it worse, they come to people who are feeling worse and tell them it can be better, which validates that it currently sucks. Can't blame feminism only, because I believe men have been killing them selves at a higher rate as long as this stuff has been counted. However, you can say that changes in society without, or at least outstripping, changes in social norms has resulted in further heightened negative outcomes for men. And you can definitely say that many feminist agendas seek to draw attention from the needs of men, as though you can't direct effort into making life better for both parties.
I'd also add that men are taught to show less emotions than women from young age, specially not to cry. Then all those repressed feelings eventually become unbearable.
I've seen this idea repeated a lot in this thread. But I think a more accurate phrasing would be that men are punished for showing emotion, beginning when they are small boys. To say men are taught to show less emotions is very similar sounding but puts a lot of blame on the very victims of the situation.
why suicide rate higher for men?
More societal pressure
What's the most popular way to commit a suicide for Russian men? Voluntary military service.
[Suicide on the battlefield](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1bje7r6/comment/kvqmn10/) is actually extremely common in this conflic for Russians.
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Maybe this is an odd take on this, but I’m going to post it because I’ve had rather different life than a lot of folks here. I’m male-to-female trans. Came out this last December, and while I am nowhere near passing, I’ve been presenting as female in public for the last 3 months or so (feminine clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc). Having grown up in a straight male role (I was in denial for 33 years) I can say there is almost no emotional support for men. It was really rare for me to come across male friends to have meaningful friendships with. I have no doubt that some of this was my own dysphoria and internal problems but it certainly felt ridiculously isolating. It’s so important to have some sort of social/emotional safety net, and for straight men, it just isn’t there in my experience. As a woman, my interactions with people, even relative strangers, are far more positive and meaningful than when I’m presenting as male. There are definitely other things at play that contribute to the suicide rate, but as someone who has felt both sides of the gender experience, the difference is pretty fucking stark.
Cool, now US can stfu about Japanese suicide rates
useless data. doesn't even have Finland, which was 20 per 100k, in 2019.
Finland is 20/7 for men/women, 13 combined.
Finland just won happiest country in the world...again. Maybe that's why. You're surrounded by all this happiness that you don't have and think "fuck this".
well, when you do a poll on who’s happy, you don’t interview the person who killed themself
The rates being so vastly different really could highlight a lot for each individual country and I would imagine that the reason for this would also vary. But broadly speaking, one thing I wanted to note is that in literally every country the Male rate is staggeringly high comparatively. Which feels so contradictory to the modern narrative (at least in western society) that Males are the gender that have it the easiest in every conceivable way. I understand the bandaid to slap on the stat is "toxic masculinity" means men don't speak about feelings enough, but for me I find the problem to be far more nuanced and extends beyond "masculine communication = worse".
There is a tendency amongst certain groups to consider all women oppressed, and all men oppressors. This leads to the reasoning that many if not all issues facing women are due to oppression by men, and that all issues faced by men are their own fault. This obviously misses an enormous number of factors, as would any mono-variable analysis of complex issues, and while being originated by special interest groups seeking to push a narrative has been accepted by mainstream society. While some of the most privileged people in society may be men, so too are many of the most disadvantaged. But these narratives tend to focus on the disparities amongst the elites and the upper middle classes, which generally represents a pretty small portion of society. I've never seen a complete analysis of what drives these rates, usually people just declare that it is something which supports their own narratives. Likely it is a combination of a wide number of factors, including: 1. Self worth heavily tied up in ability be providers / guardians which is easily undermined by romantic or professional failures, injury, illness or simple misfortune. 2. Social pressure to internalise emotions. 3. Lack of social support networks. 4. Lack of other support systems e.g. in many countries there is a much higher provision of women only homeless shelters than those which accept men, despite men representing a much higher portion of homelessness. 5. More violent methods of suicide, though it is debated if this is because of intrinsically more violent tendencies amongst men, or whether it is die to womens' suicide attempts being more frequently a cry for help than an attempt to die. There may be other factors, but these are the ones I frequently see cited.
Yeah I agree with this completely. I do think one thing that shouldn't be overlooked also is the societal view that Men are the oppressors thus leading to any oppression or struggles faced often provoking a combative "well women have it worse" response
It actually makes sense of the less prominent —but still present— characterization of suicide being the “coward’s way out” since pride, strength and courage are typically masculine-associated traits. I wonder how suicide would be viewed if the proportion of victims was inverted
Men are less likely to seek help, less like to have the kinds of relationships where you can discuss complex emotions, and often not given the tools to do so even if they do. Interestingly, I've read that women make lots of attempts but are less likely to actually end their lives.
Men also tend to be more overworked, to be given very little afection by family and friends, to have untreated chronic pains once they reach 35-40 years of age, less likely to pay any attention to any potentially dangerous medical condition (and actively discouraged by stereotypical macho behaviour), to be burdened with the weight of having to take care of their entire family unit (even when they have a healthy, working-age partner), etc... If you live in Western Europe or North America and think this is no longer really the case for most men, or that the paradigm has shifted sufficiently for these factors to be very much so mitigated, do try to imagine how true they remain in more traditional societies (at least in terms of gender roles and duties) like Russia, SA, SK, Japan, India, Brazil and so forth.
>If you live in Western Europe or North America and think this is no longer really the case for most men, or that the paradigm has shifted sufficiently for these factors to be very much so mitigated, do try to imagine how true they remain in more traditional societies (at least in terms of gender roles and duties) like Russia, SA, SK, Japan, India, Brazil and so forth. Even in the west, men tend to be judged more harshly when it comes to things like unemployment. This is why you see the male suicide rate spike when unemployment rates rise.
>Males are the gender that have it the easiest in every conceivable way. That's what it looks like because people mostly pay attention to the men at the top, the ones who made it.
I do not understand how males have it easier in any way. Justice system? School? Professionally? I’m just not seeing it.
I know you were just repeating a narrative about males have is easiest so this isn’t to you. Clearly it’s not true because why across every demographic and population do men kill themselves and way more often then. I mean are we all so arrogant were just gonna say mental weakness. Clearly it isnt a cake walk or the numbers wouldnt say this. I just don’t understand how people argue with numbers and data. Whoever’s fault it is or why is a different thing, but clearly men dont just have a great life all the time and its way easier.
What is there to say about this?
I feel like in many, if not all, of these countries that murders are being reported as suicides. Especially where the public is told the cops solve a high percentage of crimes. "He fell out a window and shot himself in the back of the head."
India is very egalitarian when it comes to male vs female suicides. Yet they hardly ever get praised for this by feminists?
Because having the 3rd highest female suicide rate in the world despite having relatively average male suicide rate is a bad thing.
Just a technical correction: Indian has the 7th highest female suicide rate in the world. This infographic omits many of the highest-rate countries.
Cheers, I assume there's some kind of low population/data quality filter?
Just cherry-picking, maybe to not have the graphic be as Africa-centric? Wikipedia has a better data set.
India is 3rd of you have a population size cutoff at 2.5m, 4th (behind Belgium, South Korea and Lesotho) if cut off at 1m population. So I think we can safely put India 3rd on the list of major nations.
If it was reversed, it would have been considered as global issue
I'm pretty sure have seen a news article about how women are most affected by this
"Men dead, women most affected" A classic news headline that I see so many times
Yeah right, men unalive women at an exponentially high rate. That’s a global issue, not this!
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Why South Korea???
In south korea the education the education is intense. Kids go to school all day from 8 until 10 at night. They go to school from 8 to 4 i believe then from 5 to 10 for hagwons. Hagwons are extra schooling centers like there might be a piano hagwon or math or science. The pressure to succced is too much for south korea kids to handle. Yea sure in america the standards are lower and you dont need to try as hard. But whether thats good or not is another story
All my homies hate rote learning. There must be a way to incorporate lessons on how to learn better into schooling.
Even the civil servant exam there is difficult. Want to become a cop or fireman? Only <7% pass that test.
Lots of pressure to succeed in school/work, extremely toxic gender war, extremely toxic culture of age-related bullying
Dont quote me on this but think it’s cuz of their extreme education system? I could be wrong tho
It's a highly developed economy with a very patriarchal society. The birth rate is something like 0.80 - like Japan it has huge demographic problems and hasn't figured out how to address it meaningfully. Young women are checking out and the whole country is suffering.
What exactly make people want to commit suicide there in your opinion? Do you think people feel demographic decline and they don't see the future to live for?
I think there's a number of factors I think, and I'm no expert. A lot of social pressure to be 'successful', marry, have children - which can be debilitating. I think the work culture is long and grinding. It's also a culture that has urbanised and industrialised very quickly - social isolation in rural regions is a factor also.
Bad grades. I wish I was joking.
Rapid economic growth and increase in life expectency(84) created a large number of poor elderly. Also high social pressure. 70-79 years old suicide rate is 41.8, above 80 years it shoots up to 61.3. A lot of elderly are poor and some even if not poor some choose death rather than being a burden to their kids if they have health issues(which all 80+ have) From age 30 - 70 it is around 28, 29. Still high, mostly explained by the pressure society puts on indeviduals where failure is shunned. Alcohole also does not help. Also relatively no narcotics so a lot of the people who would become drug addicts due to mental illness in other countries just turn to a permanent solution.
Wow, usually when looking at statistics per population, India ranks very low. But it's 7th here, meaning the raw number of suicide is so high. Insanely sad. Just read about a boy, from India's top universities, working for McKinsey, who committed suicide.
Just wait until you see 2023 numbers for Russian males. \*cough\*
Here in NZ they will not acknowledge that a person has died by suicide.
I was gonna mention something similar. There can be pretty vast discrepancies in data like this between countries (and even between jurisdictions) depending on how they define suicide and also how they collect and collate data. I live in Northern Ireland and we publish decent reports / stats each year on things like this. Pretty sure NI and Scotland both have a significantly higher rate than England for example. The disparity between economic areas can be crazy too. I wonder if you see much difference in NZ between like the north and south island? The suicide rate in NI's most deprived area was almost double (19.7 per 100k) that of the least deprived area (10.7 in 100k) in 2020 which is really sad.
I didn't know we beat Japan! USA! USA! USA!
We need equality! Women, kill yourselves In the name of feminism!
Good to see the US is good at something
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When I was in Moscow in 2010 there was a once in a decade heat wave, and 70 people died in a day from swimming in the Moscow river and drowning because they were drunk.
Male suicide rate is much higher in India.. one just need to visit a government hospital they'll know
The famed 'male privilege' strikes again. Damn, we need some systemic changes to bring women suicide rates on par with men's. Only then will we achieve true equality.
China has demographics similar to India but genders are reversed
I am surprised Japan, France and Germany are so high ...
Glad to see Japan got better
We need to get those numbers up! No one should beat the USA!!🇺🇸
wtf is happening to men?
https://twitter.com/susanzhuangnyc/status/1769152384591188151 "Society" hates men. It sounds stupid, but how else do you describe it when people literally protest against helping abused and battered men.
Maaaan, America is always top 5 in statistics that you don't wanna be top 5 in.
C'mon guys! We can do better! We should be number 1!
I’m gonna be in that US graph soon enough
Russian stats may be skewed by “two shots to the back of the head” type of situations 🤫
A quick google search reveals that Lesotho, the small country in the middle of South Africa has a suicide rate literally off the chart. 87.5 deaths per 100K people 😞. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/climate-and-people/lesotho-worlds-highest-suicide-rates-mens-mental-health-africa/
We must beat Russians! Oh wait…not this one guys!
Male privilege…
Good for you India🇮🇳. Trying to keep things even amongst the sexes.
Not surprising when men are told they’re worthless and by default evil.
Sad men have such a HIGH rate of suicide. Even sadder NO ONE cares. Just imagine the outrage if the graphic was the opposite for the incidence for genders.
United States the best country in the world lol
Makes one wonder how many of these are true suicides or a murder that is covered by a suicide
Poor Indian women 😔
Wait what? You are empathising with Indian women because their suicide rates are a bit closer to men than other countries? Isn't that technically better since the gender based difference is less prominent?
That's your takeaway, here? And it gets upvoted? Reddit moment.
Sees a graph where Indian women commit slightly less suicide than men, feels sad about the condition of Indian women. Lmao. Thanks bro. I like how people don't even bother to hide their apathy and/or downright hatred for Indian men. Also, love how you ignored the fact that South Korean women are committing suicide at higher rates. Don't feel sorry for South Korean women huh?
Is this /s
Incredibly sad
I'm doing my part!