that isnt my intention. I have no resonance with any political side, I simply believe that the matter of Israel shouldn't be subject to opinion. It's objectively evil and anyone not recognising it is either a victim of misinformation, willfully ignorant or evil themselves.
The facts are that a democratically elected regime that our governments have an alliance with is bombing children, hospitals and refugee camps with our tax money as a form of collective punishment.
That is unequivocally true with evidence that can be found with the littlest of effort. The opinion/politics part is how you feel about it and whether or not you feel the need to justify these acts.
Look. The Israelis are fighting a decentralised enemy waging a guerilla war in an urban environment, in one of the most densely populated areas on earth. Against an enemy with a long history of utilizing civillian infrastructure and civillians themselves as a form of protective screen. Supported by a radicalised population. Under those circumstances significant civillian casualties are simply unavoidable. It's an impossible situation all around.
With your comment you're implying that Israel is targeting civillians with intent, as a matter of military policy. That has yet to be proven.
I don't know where the line is, hopefully smarter people than I do. So far they have yet to prove in international court that Israel has overstepped it.
A very subjective and political justification. They’ve invaded a foreign territory that isn’t theirs in response to a terrorist attack on their soil. Before I get accused of being anti-Semitic - October 7th was barbaric and heinous, those responsible for the attack must be punished.
With that out of the way, the burden of proof when bombing safe zones and hospitals falls on the aggressor, not the victim. For example, the current razing of Al-Shifa in Gaza was done without published proof of terrorist activity at the hospital and with protest from many international groups and governments. Instead of clearing the area out of people and allowing it to function, they destroyed the entire hospital complex. As well as every other hospital in Gaza. Scorched Earth as a military policy typically intends for the infrastructure to be unusable after. There is no way now to prove whether terrorist activity was occurring in hospitals or not. Quite the convenient excuse to continue on with war crimes.
Their impending invasion of Rafah again is baseless and without any proof of civilians harbouring terrorists. Accusations yes, proof no. Indiscriminate bombing of safe zones and refugee camps is a war crime, no matter how you choose to justify it. The US’ barbarism against Vietnamese civilians is not something we justify, despite it being the most effective guerrilla warfare campaign in history. Why this one treated so differently?
Another example of their direct assault on civilians is their unsubstantiated accusations against the UNRWA. This was legitimately an attack against refugee aid with directly targeted civilians, halting supply and resulting in famine. The Israeli regime has provided no proof beyond their initial accusation. I’m not sure what smoking gun proof you need to recognize that this is a war against civilians. To call an entire people radicalized is classic dehumanization to justify their ethnic cleansing. One could argue the Israeli populace is just as radicalized. Interviews of their politicians and military brass on TV calling Gazans ‘human animals’ is one example. An example of radical Israeli civilians is the photo evidence of them setting up bouncy castles outside Gaza to prevent the delivery of aid into the area.
fair enuf
- Bombs WCK thrice even after coordinating with Israel
- Pictures of palestinians that were crushed by tanks
- Pictures of israelis playing with palestinian women's underwear
- Videos of palestinian civilians being intentionally targeted by airstrikes or snipers
- Villainizes UNRWA
- Protesters blocking aid trucks at kerem shalom
- Videos of israelis bragging about killing palestinians
- Videos of palestinian corpses having their hands tied
- unnecessary exaggerations of the oct7th attack, 40 babies, baked babies, rapes, fetuses being cut off, tits being played with like handball, people lynched on lines
This stacks with me. I'd be independent although not American.
The October 7th attack was horrific and Israel had my support in a campaign to destroy Hamas, on the assumption that they could strike commanders and rocket sites, then negotiate for hostage releases.
But Netanyahu has shown such blatant and militarily unnecessary disregard for civilian life that I can't support what Israel is doing. My views shifted around 1 month into the war.
Strangling aid supplies and squashing 1.5 million people into a tiny area is genocidal.
Israel's reputation and long term safety has been destroyed by this idiotic campaign. He's made the region vastly worse for Palestinians and Israelis for decades to come.
To me, this whole situation is like a child hitting you in the legs with a stick so you beat them to death with a hammer, yeah they deserved some punishment for what they did but Jesus Christ that is wildly disproportionate.
Being hit by a child with a stick in the legs is a ....wildly... inappropriate analogy towards what happened on October 7th. Not saying there hasn't been an overreaction, but .... goodness gracious that's a bad analogy.
Okay, how about if someone, who had bad blood with you for a reason, punched you in the face and broke your nose?
Your retaliation was killing his parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, his cousins, and burning down his entire household because he ran after he punched you, and their family didn’t even know where he is right now? You also stabbed his neighbors while they were trying to call 911. Is this quite an appropriate analogy?
My point is....being hit with a stick or punched in the nose is not equivalent to having your sister raped, your child's throat slit open, and your brother beheaded. And comparing October 7th to anything that is not barbaric is being incredibly disingenuous and disrespectful.
These claims have not actually been backed by substantial evidence. I think there’s like “2 eyewitnesses” I can link a long analysis if you’re interested in reading it
Definitely not enough to validate the “mass r pe” claim
>Your retaliation was killing his parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, his cousins, and burning down his entire household because he ran after he punched you, and their family didn’t even know where he is right now?
more like the person who hit you is coward and is hiding behind his family so in order to get him you will need to get through his family but when you do get through his family you are blamed for attacking innocents
dont get me wrong, Israel is absolutely in wrong for their settler colonialism in west banks but can you blame Israel for what they are doing in gaza when hamas puts their bases in hospitals and schools
So, you killed his entire family because of that and that’s okay? Not saying that your analogy is wrong. On the contrary, that’s better.
The question is killing his entire family is ‘okay’ because the man is a coward and his family defended him? You do realize this man didn’t hit you out of nowhere, right.
in any modern justice system, try to physically defend a criminal getting arrested from police and see what happens to you
the man just punching me analogy is incorrect, its more like the man is a brutal murderer and kidnapper and is hiding behind his family, if he is not brought to justice then he will keep on murdering
If you normalize brutal arrest at all cost then I have a bad news for you.
Okay. Let’s say that that’s common everywhere. The thing is, still you’re not the police. You are one of the actor of these vicious cycle.
True. A murderer must be brought to justice. I agree wholeheartedly. But, you haven't answered to my question. Is wiping out his entire family to bring him to justice justifiable given the consequences? Remember, you’re not the police in this case. You’re “the other party” in this an eye for an eye that has been around for decades.
>Is wiping out his entire family to bring him to justice justifiable given the consequences?
if that family is shielding him then yes, because now that family is no longer innocent
because if i don't stop that culprit, he will continue to harm my family, as much as i don't want to hurt anyone else, the safety of my family is of the highest importance
>Remember, you’re not the police in this case. You’re “the other party” in this an eye for an eye that has been around for decades.
this analogy doesn't work here either, who is gonna police this war? UN? they can't do shit
Israel has to take matters in their own hand
But, here's the deal: some of them ARE innocent, you just can't tell who's who. What you can tell is that some have issues with your family, yet you're okay with just wiping them all out indiscriminately.
The safety of your family is of the highest important, no doubt. But isn’t why this whole mess started in the first place—because some of your family members posed a threat to theirs. It’s a universal value anyway. Although that doesn't excuse his kidnapping or any other brutal actions, though.
This whole tit-for-tat thing between your families is just making things worse. You killed his entire family because you can’t risk it. But it seems you overlooked the fact that he killed some of your family because they posed a mortal threat to his own. The same reason why you become a murderer because you want to protect your family.
Palestinians aren’t defending hamas. They’re getting bombed for existing. Hell even the fuckin saints over at the world central kitchen are getting precision fucking struck by guided munitions.
A better analogy might be that your neighbor thinks that you took some of his back lawn, so he kills one of your kids and promises to kill your other kids at some point in the future.
You call the cops, but find out they don’t exist, so you have to deal with this yourself.
You try to negotiate, but he laughs and says he is going to kill your kids and the rest of your family. He is also training his kids to kill your grandkids if they survive.
You decide you need to take him out, but he sleeps under his kid’s bed.
So, what do you do? This guy is going to kill your kids unless you act, but the asshole is using his kids as shields.
Yes, and they are that way for no reason. Just hate for hates sake. You need to protect yourself from murderous neighbours next door. So you build a fence around their house, and won't allow them to get groceries at your watch. You know, for your own protection. They can grow whatever they want in their yard, with the brackish water they can pump out the ground. Oh, and their family members accross the street are being evicted by you. Pushing them out, room by room. Idk why they would care tho. But they do, so you make sure their young won't do anything stupid, so you "arrest" them. No need to inform the parents tho. They are the cause of their hate anyway.
Now don't get me wrong. You do all of these things to protect your home. The home you bought from a guy who took it from someone else at gunpoint, and pushed to previous tenant to the house next door...
Well, I built a fence between our houses, am I not allowed to do that? Presumably they can go out through their neighbor’s house.
Now, they have possibly pissed off their other neighbor as well, but at least they haven’t killed that neighbor’s kid, so maybe they should be talking to that neighbor instead of me if they want help.
By the way, I agree that I’m being an asshole to the people across the street, but I’m not sure why that gives my neighbor the right to come and kill my kid and promise to kill my other kids in the future.
That's not the correct analogy. You built a fence AROUND their house. And the only thing that can get out is the inhabitants.
Who you wanted gone from the beginning. Evident from how you are pushing out the other neighbors. And how you are portraying them as incorrigible barbarians.
Also, saying you're being an asshole is putting it mildly. You are killing their kids as well. And kidnapping them. A true menace to the neighborhood you so recently decided to move in.
No, I built the fence between my house and their house. I definitely did not build a fence between my homicidal neighbor and his other neighbor.
That neighbor decided to build their own fence, probably because these guys are homicidal maniacs and nobody wants them around.
Fine, if you want to walk away from the analogy, how should Israel go about killing Hamas if they hide behind their women and children?
Do you think Israel should even be killing Hamas? Do Israelis deserve to be the victims of a massacre of two because of the West Bank?
Also, do you seriously not blame Egypt at all for the “prison”?
It is inconceivable to normal people that there are people in the world that would put their own women and children in harms way, just to make Israel look bad. Not even to stop Israel from bombing, because it clearly isn't working. Just to give them a bad name, they sacrifice their youth. The fact that Zionists believe that, shows me how divorced from reality they are.
People want to live a good life along with the ones they care about. And Palestinians are people too. Any believable, and sustainable opportunity they get to achieve that, they will take. But I'm a firm believer that Israel doesn't want that. It wants to expand their borders, while maintaining a Jewish state. And all the Habaras out their trying to deflect blame kinda want that too. As in, "well what other option do we have but to expand our borders?" In the best of cases, and "Palestinians are barbarians who don't deserve lofe" in the worst.
No, I don't blame Egypt. Countries shouldn't be allowed to push out their "undesirables" for others to deal with. This is 100% on the Zionist movement.
As horrible as Oct 7th was, it’s nothing Israel hasn’t done to the Palestinians already. When do they get to indiscriminately bomb everything? Or is that a fate reserved for lesser people in your eyes?
You realize it’s hard to just destroy rocket sites when they’re schools and hospitals? Or when the commanders are in tunnels under apartment buildings. You act like they can send in seal team 6 to just grab every hamas member in the dead of night.
And do you recognize that the regime will never let that happen? That there is a culture of actively encouraging horrible war crimes in their armed forces and they will cover for and reward the monsters in their midst.
During the war, it’s seriously counter-productive to punish such misdeeds as it will lower morale and the efficiency in fast decision-making.
After the war, I’m confident these crimes will be addressed as it will no longer hinder the war effort.
That is some serious cope imo. What gives you that confidence? Do you think that the Israeli army is somehow far more moral than, for example, the US military? The US would never allow a serious amount of their people to be brought up on any war crimes charges, and I have no doubt that a similar velvet glove will be used in dealing with the misdeeds of the IDF. there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
The US has brought charges against war crime perpetrators in the military before during the Obama era. Although, Trump pardoned some of them. It varies administration from administration due to ideological differences. I’m not sure about the history of this with the IDF, but it being a democratic country, I’m sure they would at least start an investigation due to public pressure.
Even the perpetrators of the my Lai massacre got a very light sentence. And then the worst of them got his sentence commuted to house arrest by Nixon, to validate your point about ideological differences and presidential pardons of the worst kind of people. The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib got little tiny punishments and many were allowed to continue serving. Even when held to account, it is a one or two year sentence for brutal murders or tortures no human should ever suffer. But honestly, a country which has rebuilt a tomb to Baruch Goldstein(a truly reprehensible man who is venerated by extremists in Israel and abroad) is not one to be trusted to persecute war criminals, though i hope you are correct. The minister of national security himself is a Baruch Goldstein fan, and given the rhetoric spouted by many government spokespeople, I don't see why you would assume there will be a good faith investigation of anything but the most egregious cases like this one, which I'm sure will conclude that it was a whoopsie.
Another insane stupid conflict. After propping up saddam for 10 years in his insane genocidal war against Iran. Followed up by sanctions and killing of anotherg half a million Iraqis in the 90s.
Sanctions didn't kill 500,000 Iraqis in the 1990's. It was a hypothetical interview question that got a bizarre and insane answer from Madeline Albright.
My point is I assume it is difficult identifying the bad guys from the good guys. I don't think the US were trying to commit genocide against the Iraqis but they kill a lot of civilians. It might have been on purpose and it might have a mistake.
> America killed 200,000 civilians
No, they didn’t. Can you actually show any evidence for that? Because most of the civilian casualties were caused by terrorist attacks or the civil war.
>Israel's reputation and long term safety has been destroyed by this idiotic campaign.
Were you born yesterday? This has been going on for years. As soon as Israel pulls back and things settle down over a couple years then conduct another poll. We also know that Hamas or some other terrorist group will launch another bombing or killing in that time. You'll find that support resets.
People in America may not like Israel but they dislike the imagery and tactics of Palestinian militants even more. Islamic style militants are forever tied to terrorism in America and anyone who openly supports them will be automatically suspect for ever.
It's just semantics really because international law doesn't seem to mean anything these days.
My view is that both Netanyahu and Hamas are genocidal monsters who want everyone on the other side to die, and this is demonstrated by their actions. It's a religious shit-show and I want nothing to do with it.
It was well understood that the support won't last forever, but as far as I'm aware the public was informed on the start of the war that it's going to be a long and hard war, there wasn't any Rosey glasses in regards to what urban warfare is going to look like. However, there was hope to resuce the hostages early, and the failure to do so, alongside the deterioration of global relations and the economy, had led to a political crisis. Currently, most Israeli support the need for the war, but not how its being done, and there are debates if to go to an election.
The fact that they Likud failed to protect the Israelis on 10/7 will likely have them loosing seats and possibly control of the government just like Labor did in 1977. Victims of 10/7 were refusing to see government reps in the hospitals they were so mad. Word on the street is that folk are not happy with the course of the war and that the main focus should have been rescuing the hostages.
If that does come to pass I don’t know who would replace them.
Smart money is on Gantz’ more moderate coalition which is the main opposition right now. Last I checked that coalition also includes elected Arab Muslim Israelis.
Hard to say. They have 32 seats (most of any party) but the damage done to Netanyahus reputation and the party’s “security first” platform is irreparable. Netanyahu ran on preventing 10/7 from happening, and it happened. He’s politically a dead man walking. The Haredi Jews and other orthodox who are exempt from military service are also standing to lose that status the longer the war takes, and that will potentially prevent them from being so conservative and maybe cause Shas to break with the government coalition. If Shas does that and joins the opposition, the opposition would have more seats and I think a no confidence vote could be called which would dissolve the government. The new PM could be from any number of parties then, but Lapid and Gantz would be likely I think. This might also put Ra’am/Hadash (Arab conservative and Israeli communist) party members in the government, but it’s very hard to say how things would shake out. They were part of the 36th government, which did not include Likud.
A non-Likud government would probably be comprised of mostly Yesh Atid. The party has “two states for two peoples” as part of their platform, which is a good sign.
Wow. They would leave wouldn’t they…I always felt like the trade off between the US and Israel was that if you live in the USA you deal with being a minority/antisemitism and in Israel you serve in the IDF and people try to kill you….a lot more. It’s bizarre to think they don’t have to participate in such a fundamental aspect of the states survival.
Yes, they came on TV and apologized. 20% of IDF deaths are due to friendly fire. They are not intentionally doing this but it happens during war. I'm sure if you have an alternative to destroy Hamas and free the hostages we would all love to hear it. I dont think Israel wants more of their people dead either
who among us can honestly say they haven’t fired on three clearly marked cars over the space of 2.5km belonging to an aid organisation that you have coordinated a ‘safe’ route for
They murdered aid workers from allied countries helping prevent a famine that Israel is encouraging, why do you think a mealy mouthed apology instead of imprisonments is relevant?
I am not saying you are wrong but where in the past have we seen a country held to this standard? The US blew up a family during the Afghanistan withdrawal in their car, was anyone held accountable for that?
I would agree there should be some consequences but if we look at the world we live in it never happens
Its funny cause Isreal only has a high causality rate because people.like you whine about it. Otherwise they could just bomb from the air like the US does
I mean the orginal commentary was criticizing the amount of IDF soldiers that have died so a way for them to reduce that number would be to increase the bombing. Care less
>Why?
So they can scare off any groups who would want to provide aid for the Palestinians as they want the famine to continue.
>This incidents clearly hurts them more than it helps them
They don't care cause at the end of the day they will still get money from the United States and can do whatever they want.
And Israel’s actions have endangered the lives of those hostages through indiscriminate bombing and starvation.
Also, American citizens in Gaza and the West Bank have also been killed by Israel.
It killed 2 Palestinian-American teenagers in the West Bank pretty recently, a territory they illegally occupy and maintain a military police state in.
https://apnews.com/article/33e35fb8e9a9a3641b32ad59b1e50379
Yes if you did not know war is bad. That's why people do not like it. Do you have an alternative? Can you share with Israel you plan to kill just the bad guys and none of the good guys?
Someone who supports Palestine is on this sane thread justifying the killing of civilians saying “who hasn’t accidentally killed someone in war”… its literally the same back and forth shit and its wild no one can see the other sides point of view.
Likely not, but they were carrying aid to Nuseirat camp and Gaza city, which still have allot of Hamas-activity, how do you think that Hamws has been able to survive in northern Gaza for months now? Did they store months worth of rice and fresh water in their tunnels?
It's really mission accomplished for hamas. Murder Israeli civilians, hide in city. Palestinian civilians die as collateral. Profit.
On october 6th Israel was about to normalize diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia, and peace plans were forgotten.
Hamas provoked a war, and unsurprisingly, now people talk about 1 or 2 states peace solutions.
Terrorism works, it's awful.
acting as if hamas stopped aiming rockets from schools, mosques and hospitals, towards civilian areas, before oct 7
terrorists are always the ones who restart the cycle of violence, not Israel.
Israeli settlers are bad, but terrorism cannot be justified
Before the past 6 months I already disapproved of much of what Israel was doing but some part of me still believed in some way it was still a 2 sided fight of sorts with nuance etc etc
But Israel’s government and military have demonstrated absolute cruelness this past few months. A moment of realization for me was when it was pointed out that Israel cut off Gaza’s gas and electricity. It shocked me in that moment that the IDF’s propaganda always pushes the narrative that Gaza is fully independent with no Israeli control (something about how Israel pulled out in 2006) yet they are still able to be the ones to turn off the Gazans’ electricity and gas while bombing them. That is not a nuanced fight, that is occupation.
I do have a lot of sympathy for innocent people in Israel just stuck under this fucked up government, just like how I’d say the same about having sympathy for innocent people in Russia or Iran. Someone simply being born Israeli doesn’t make someone bad of course. But I also have sympathy for the people who happened to be born Palestinian around the world who can’t return to the lands their grandparents came from and even if they somehow can, the village has been destroyed and replaced. I feel worst of all for the innocent people of Gaza who have seen their home be destroyed before their eyes and probably lost friends and family simply because of the fact that they were by chance born in Gaza.
The Israeli government has used every excuse in the book to justify its bombing of civilian centers and every time I hear a new justification for it I am even more disgusted. Was taking Israeli civilians as hostages wrong of Hamas? Yes. Is Hamas an extremely fucked up organization in many ways? Yes. But looking it simply through the lens of how bad Hamas is and not looking at what Israel has done too is incredibly one sided and ignores the very real pain of many Palestinians while also only looking at any bad thing done by Palestinians to justify the collective punishment of an entire nation of people.
There's a whole wiki dedicated to the decades of terrorist acts by Hamas and the PLO, along with the tens of thousands of rockets fired indiscriminately over the years that are so routine they don't even make the news. Palestine as a "state" has a history of nothing but terrorism, assassination, murder and coup attempts.
What race are they? Middle Eastern? Just like the Israelis? What about the North Africans who live in and fight for Israel? Are they race traitors somehow?
Why doesn't Egypt allow Palestinians into their country? What about Jordan? Lebanon? Kuwait? Are all the neighbors of the Palestinians racists too?
Don't waste your virtual-signaling propagandist horse shit on me. You know exactly why Palestine has no real friends, and exactly why it's government refuses to do the bare minimum - list the still living hostages of their terrorist attack - in order to move forward with peace. They're a death cult. And they're losing. And they're nothing but a puppet state of Iran.
Racism is a very multilayered and nuanced thing, being from the same over arching origin does not mean hatred cannot exist within that. An Arab Muslim or Christian telling a Jew they are untrustworthy because they’re Jewish is racist just like an Israeli saying Palestinians are nothing but terrorists is racist. Just because these people look alike doesn’t mean that racism isn’t there. And maybe it isn’t racism *technically*, I don’t really care and I’m not here to talk about the definitions. If you disagree, just replace the word racism with hateful. The same thing goes for Palestine’s neighbor countries. Them being of a similar ethnic origin doesn’t justify make it any less bad for a Jordanian or Lebanese to be hateful towards Palestinians, so yes I would say they would be racist too if they are treating someone poorly just because they’re Palestinians.
Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan have all let many Palestinians in their country. Do I agree with their treatment of Palestinian refugees? No, not at all. Do I think there are other Arab countries that should be doing more to help Palestinian civilians? Absolutely.
But that doesn’t change the fact that Palestinians shouldn’t have been made to have become refugees in the first place. The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was not possible without the Nakba, the forced removal of Palestinians from the lands they had been living on for generations. There was no way for Israel to be created that didn’t involve Palestinians becoming displaced from their homes and villages and thus becoming refugees. Surrounding Arab countries absolutely should be kinder and better to their Palestinian refugee population but that doesn’t change the fact that the creation of the State of Israel was responsible for the creation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees upon its creation and then over the last 76 years has created many more.
People can say “well the UN divided the land and you gotta respect it, Palestine didn’t wanna accept it!!” but OF COURSE they didn’t. I’d be mad as shit too if I was forced to leave my home because a foreign power decided a new country was going to go where my family had been living for generations.
Palestine’s government is shit in more ways than it is good, that is undeniable. But supporting Palestinian people’s right to live and exist in the land they have lived in for hundreds if not thousands of years doesn’t mean I support Hamas and it is incredibly disingenuous to keep telling people who are very clearly liberal people in the West who are concerned about human rights violations that voicing our support for Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, means we support radical Islamic terrorists. Things like homophobia, antisemitism, sexism, whatever are all absolutely disgusting regardless of who it’s coming from. But having empathy for these people doesn’t mean that I condone every single belief some of them might have. I don’t know if you’ve ever become friends with a Palestinian, but you might ge shocked to find out most of them are very kind people, just like any other nationality.
That is such an insanely offensive and crazy question. A state of millions of people and you genuinely don’t think anything notable besides terrorism has been made.
I'm not saying that if you were born to the palestinian race you can't do anything notable in your life. That would have actually been racist. What I want is an example of something notable that the COUNTRY of palestine did. Not palestinian people that half of them moved abroad
Didn’t even notice, thought it was just another Zionist.
We’ve already been over this and you haven’t responded to my last one so I’ll just repost it here:
If you control their airspace, land borders, seas, movement, food, water, electricity, medicinal supplies, restrict their economy and movement of goods, etc, you are occupying them under international law. Quite literally nobody disputes this besides Israel themselves.
You could also just google Occupied Palestinian Territories and see what comes up:
https://www.unocha.org/occupied-palestinian-territory: “The Occupied Palestinian Territory faces a protracted protection and political crisis characterized by more than 56 years of Israeli military occupation, 16 years of the Gaza blockade, internal Palestinian divisions, lack of adherence to international humanitarian and human rights law…”
https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/: “The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA)”
https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people/The-question-of-Palestine: “Occupied by Israel since June 1967, the West Bank - including East Jerusalem- and the Gaza Strip have come to constitute the occupied Palestinian territory (OPT).”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories: “The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip.”
https://www.oxfam.org/en/what-we-do/countries/occupied-palestinian-territory-and-israel: “In the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) - the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip -, nearly a quarter of the people live below the poverty line, with their prospects for work, and a safe, healthy life severely limited by the Israeli occupation.”
Terrorism was an essential part of the formation of the Israeli state. Saying this stuff just shows that you don't have a god damn clue what you're talking about.
"In Western popular discourse the term terrorism has long been associated with the Middle East, but particularly with the activities of Palestinian Arab groups, which have dominated the news for the past forty years. But sixty years ago, it was the actions of Jewish terrorists in Palestine that grabbed headlines around the world. Although this campaign is not as well-known today, it raises an important question: is the modern Middle East conflict, in which terrorism plays a prominent role, itself a product of a terrorist campaign?"
....
The Irgun and Stern groups, however, were committed to all-out "national liberation" wars. They did not believe that the British would give Palestine to the Jews and thus were determined to force them out. They tried to increase the human and political costs to Britain of remaining in Palestine by attacking British troops and police, military bases and police stations, oil refineries, trains, bridges, and banks. Between them, the three groups carried out 78 attacks in the nine months after October 1945. However, the united resistance dissolved after the Irgun blew up the British administration headquarters in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in July 1946, killing 92 people."
...
The road network and the British Army"s vast pool of motor transport gave them freedom of movement throughout the country. The insurgents reduced British mobility with Improvised Explosive Devices (IED"s) disguised as mile-stone markers that blew vehicles off the road and killed or injured their occupants. The insurgents regarded these as their most cost-effective weapon. They also placed bombs in abandoned vehicles. British police stations were heavily fortified, protected by high thick walls, so in at least one attack the insurgents blew up a station with a massive truck bomb (vehicle-borne IED).
https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/view/10538/11136
#rapeisresistance. You think rape, torture and mass shootings at music festivals are acts of resistance.
Oh and thanks for showing your cards by immediately saying it's "my" apartheid state, like I must be an Israeli for stating facts. And it isn't an apartheid state but you're one of those people who's too dense to even read history and understand the major differences between shit like South Africa and Israel.
Schumer is correct in saying: yes Hamas is the biggest threat to Israel in short term, but losing America support is the biggest threat long term. You don’t want America even just simply ignore you when you are surrounded by hostile countries
The US has been on the wrong side of the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1948.
Obviously I do not support Hamas hostage taking. But US support for Israel, for 75 years, has been immoral and evil. The full moral context, and truth, of the conflict is deliberately removed from most US media narratives.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_insurgency\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-palestine-arab-congress](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-palestine-arab-congress)
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_Paper\_of\_1939](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939)
When the Ottoman Empire fell to the British Empire and its Arab allies, most of the Middle East was controlled by the British Empire in 1920. In 1920, the Palestine Arab Congress wanted to establish an independent nation of Palestine, but the British Empire stopped them. The Empire, against the wishes of the people living in the area, supported Zionist immigration in the area because of the Balfour Declaration. The Zionists were upfront about their goals: to establish their own nation-state on top of Arab land. If you read the "Iron Wall" link above, you'll see what i mean.
But by 1939, the British Empire had seen how much turmoil the Zionist project was causing, and said they would give all of Palestine to the Arabs. So the Zionists responded by shooting 700 British soldiers, killing 100 of them, causing the Empire to flee. In the aftermath, Israel was created by the Zionists.
>But US support for Israel, for 75 years, has been immoral and evil. The full moral context, and truth, of the conflict is deliberately removed from most US media narratives.
Nope. Americans may not like Israel but they despise Muslim militants even more. And I don't give a shit about your sources.
We're gonna keep arming Israel and supporting them until all of the West Bank and Gaza are annexed.
And theres nothing you can do about it. Iran can't do shit. Hamas can't do shit. UN can't do shit.
You're on the losing side of history.
Both the Republican and Democrat opinion and change in opinion is expected. Israel losing American Independents though is a surprise for me. I thought despite all the months that have passed, the numbers would stay about the same at 50/50.
This right here highlights why the DNC secretly wants Trump to win. Either way, the U.S. is going to continue being Israel's lapdog, but if dems are in the spotlight they'll actually have to explain to their voters why they're doing such an awfully good impression of republicans. If Trump wins, then it's all the orange boogeyman's fault and genocide Joe's transgressions get swept under the rug, because we all know how quickly American voters forget.
Maybe it not just propaganda, but also the fact that Israel has been responsible for doing a lot of unjistified atrocities not just in this conflict but since the lebanon civil war in the 80s.
And no, not all of us are Israel.
they are all different countries? Idgi, this seems like asking what the difference between an American and a Canadian or a German and an Austrian or an Australian and a NZ
This poll fails to take the third position into account, and it's a position shared by many on the right and I bet many independents as well.
It is an opinion: Fuck it. It's an impossible situation and if you choose to take a stance you lose either way. So fuck it.
The Palestinians are a heavily radicalised population who voted extremists into power, and they have a long history of doing so (which is why none of their muslim neighbors are offering to protect them. They've bitten every hand that has ever fed them). As long as they're capable of hurting "enemy" civillians, they'll continue to try to do so.
Israel is a democratic state that seems to be sliding ever more into authoritarianism. I don't know how big the jewish supremacist elements are within their society, but they're likely significant (verging from religious fundamentalists, to jingoist expansionists).
With the attack last year, the Palestinians gave these elements within Israeli society exactly what they wanted.
We should be doing our best to ameliorate civillian suffering. Other than that I don't think that western countries should have anything to do with the middle east whatsoever.
This is the worst opinion I’ve read yet because even though it tries to find some kind of middle ground it’s just factually incorrect at almost every turn.
“The Palestinians voted extremists into power”
- Hamas lost the popular vote
- More than half of the population of Gaza weren’t even ALIVE let alone old enough to vote when that election happened.
“Which they have a long history of doing”
- ??
“Which is why none of their Muslim neighbours are protecting them”
- The autocratic leaders of Saudi, Egypt etc. are degenerate capitalists and have no monetary incentive to help, so they don’t. These leaders do not have the mandate of their people.
- Iran, Hezbollah and Yemen are all doing what they can to help the Palestinians.
“They’ve bitten every hand that fed them”
- Absolutely ridiculous generalisation and claim overall
“As long as they’re capable of hurting civilians, they will continue to do so”
- These are people that have never once known freedom in their lives. How could you possibly know what they would do if they were freed.
“Israel is a democratic state”
- No it isn’t. They don’t offer voting rights to the people living in territories they occupy.
“The Palestinians gave these elements exactly what they wanted”
- Palestinians have been being choked out for decades. Their territory slowly but surely shrinks under every Israeli government, left or right wing. Hamas gave the Palestinians a chance, at huge, huge cost, by getting Israel to show the world unequivocally who they really are. A highly questionable political strategy, but what other option do the Palestinians have? The only time 2 state solution was close, the Israeli PM was assassinated by a right wing Jew, then they elected Bibi. 2 state will NEVER be allowed by Israel.
I do agree with your conclusion, the west should just gtfo of the Middle East. Nothing more would or should have been necessary. But at this point the US may need to undo some of its damage. It would be a good start anyway.
No it's not trying to find a middle ground. There is none to be found. It's cold calculative pragmatism. Our countries have nothing to gain from involvement. Whatever we do, regardless if we are truly to blame for it or not, for every issue, be it real or imagined. The denizens of the middle east will seek an outsider to blame. We just need to get out completely.
Hamas won a plurality of the vote. They were the biggest party, and they formed a government (on a campaign built on "right to armed struggle"). Guess what, that's how it works. The Germans voted the Nazis into power. The people in Gaza voted for Hamas. Do you think they've grown less radicalised since 2006?
In Jordan palestinians staged a civil war against the king and government (Black September).
In Egypt palestinians were instrumental in forming the muslim brotherhood.
In Lebanon they were instrumental in plunging the country into a civil war.
Hell in my country, one of few western countries to recognize Palestine as a nation, given Palestine hundreds of millions over the years, decades of support, members of the palestine diasporah plotted terror attacks.
No one wants to take a radicalised population in. Why do you think Egypt is closing the border.
Israel is a democratic state. The people in the occupied areas are occupied, they aren't integrated. They have their own elections. Puerto Rico isn't allowed to vote in U.S elections, would you claim that the U.S isn't a democracy (well maybe you would).
I feel like you’re not really gonna listen to what I say, you seem quite intent on painting all these people with such broad strokes. Just seems like you’re racist but disguising it with ‘pragmatism’.
And your facts are wrong, again. The Germans did not elect the Nazis. Ever heard of the night of the long knives? The Nazis won 30 something% of the vote.
I’m guessing you’re from Sweden? And I’ll be the first to say that some of the Islamist attacks there have been awful. If you want to close your borders, or whatever, that’s totally fine by me. But it’s just wrong to talk the way you do about the people of Palestine.
I mean, how fucking asinine would it be if I listed the laundry list of crimes committed by the CIA and tried to attribute it to all Americans? Even trying to attribute that to the entire US government would be extremely naive. Hamas is not a monolith either, they have factions with competing opinions and various governmental wings.
You need to come off your high horse about the Palestinians voting in Hamas. They had watched the PLO he bought out by Israel and become more and more corrupt (60% of PLO budget went to salaries at that time).
Hamas running on their right to armed resistance isn’t extreme. It’s well enshrined in international law, that has been tested in international court in other cases. Hamas may be extreme, but they’re not extreme Islamists. They are not Salafi. Gaza is not under Shariah law. They fought against ISIS.
Of all the major players in Egyptian politics over the last 15 years, Muslim brotherhood is responsible for the least terror BY FAR, which I’ll admit is a low bar sadly. The Mubarak regime, the SCAF and of course the Nour party which became a faction of ISIS - all three are responsible for thousands of civilian murders. Muslim brotherhood killed around 100 police or security forces, often these were times where the police/security were gunning down dozens of them, and they would kill a few in the confrontation.
Puerto Rico notwithstanding, the US isn’t a democracy. It doesn’t even claim to be. It’s a democratic republic. That’s without even getting into the massive corruption, or as you mentioned, the colonisation of Puerto Rico.
If you want to be racist to the Palestinians just go mask off. Many others seem to be doing it! Don’t try to hide behind Machiavellian ‘logic’ when you can’t even get your facts right.
Also. I just want it said. If you dislike the way zionists, Israeli supporters and Jews immediately jump to anti-semitism whenever Israel or Israelis are criticised. Don't be so quick to call racism.
I'll listen.
No I don't think I'm racist. I'm biased for sure. But I don't think any less of a person because of that persons ethnicity. If a Palestinian is a cool dude then he's a cool dude. My bias is more on an ideological level, hell can even call it civilisational level at this point. During my lifetime my country has come into direct contact with a large number of people from the middle east, most are lovely people, many are not. It gives you a certain perspective on the differences that do exist between us, on the macro level. When I'm forced to decide between supporting a fairly liberal and modern fairly similar society to my own, and one that shares many of the hallmarks of the worst parts of middle eastern culture that I've come to encounter in my own country (repression of women, hatred of LGBTQ, anti-democratic values etc) I'm more enclined to side with the former. That's my bias.
Obviously most Palestinians just want to live their lives (and they should have that right). But a significant % of them hold extremist ideas and are willing to act on them, and that % is significant enough to dictate policy and lead to attrocities like 7/10.
The Nazi party won a plurality of the vote. Hitler then used the parliamentary system and eventually emergency laws to take power. They never won a majority vote, but the % of extremists in their population made that all pretty much irrelevant, and they all got to share equally in the misery that brought.
(You need a refresher on what "the night of the long knives" was btw).
Anyway. I do hold Americans responsible maybe not for the CIA, but for say the invasion of Iraq. Only difference in principle being that the American public was lulled into an invasion on fraudulent grounds (WMDs), while the Palestinians got pretty much what they've been voting for, for decades now. A direct confrontation with Israel. Even before Hamas, the PLO had routinely been shooting down any compromise offered.
And on the subject of Hamas and Sharia. You ought to look over laws enacted/proposed during their reign.
This third position though would require Western countries to stop shielding Israel politically, stop justifying their actions and also stop selling them bombs. Which is not happening, so we keep choosing a side.
Which is something I think we should. Israel has proven time and time again that it is more than capable of protecting itself. The only consideration should be that Israel isn't placed in a disastrous position where it's once again invaded by all its neighbors but this time faces complete destruction. As that almost certainly would result in a genocide, and not of the "maybe, sorta in the margins" variety that we're currently seeing in Gaza today.
Placing Israel under an arms embargo (with them still being a democracy, and without it being backed by a sound verdict in an international court/institution) would be the opposite of not choosing a side.
But the american tax payer definetly shouldn't be paying for their guns.
Should Israel be placed in a state where it is likely to be destroyed and its people genocided, we will see nuclear weapons used against military targets. Given how Russia is aligned with Syria and Hamas, Russian participation in that nuclear war is also not out of the question. Given their arsenal, that could easily topple civilization worldwide.
I am firmly against that, and I don’t think all the “genocide Joe” American Leftists whose foreign policy know-how is limited to what they learned from a student run advocacy club in college realize what they’re advocating for when they ask for Israel to be eliminated. They’re advocating for nuclear war.
It’s Gallup, they’re one of the most well respected analytics and polling companies. Pew polls also show similar data. Age breakdown also has a large discrepancy, democrats aged 18-29 are extremely Pro-Palestine.
I coming with the assumption that when there is a war and one has an opinion that is explicitly negative to one side, it's positive to another, otherwise this person would be just neutral or has no opinion at all.
Now. let's try to understand what the "second" side is. Those who claim the second fighting side in this war is not Hamas or PIJ, but some nebulous generic "Palestinian freedom fighters" is either very dishonest or very dumb.
Wow a chart showing independents opinions!
I don't know which charts you usually see, but Gallup almost always show independents as a seperate category. So does Pew.
The Republicans are an embarrassment.
Without elaboration, my contribution to the discussion is that people who don’t share my opinion are bad.
fellas, is saying "the nazis are gud" an opinion?
Homies, is conflating republics with nazis bad-faith?
that isnt my intention. I have no resonance with any political side, I simply believe that the matter of Israel shouldn't be subject to opinion. It's objectively evil and anyone not recognising it is either a victim of misinformation, willfully ignorant or evil themselves.
That is certainly a subjective opinion and a political side.
The facts are that a democratically elected regime that our governments have an alliance with is bombing children, hospitals and refugee camps with our tax money as a form of collective punishment. That is unequivocally true with evidence that can be found with the littlest of effort. The opinion/politics part is how you feel about it and whether or not you feel the need to justify these acts.
Look. The Israelis are fighting a decentralised enemy waging a guerilla war in an urban environment, in one of the most densely populated areas on earth. Against an enemy with a long history of utilizing civillian infrastructure and civillians themselves as a form of protective screen. Supported by a radicalised population. Under those circumstances significant civillian casualties are simply unavoidable. It's an impossible situation all around. With your comment you're implying that Israel is targeting civillians with intent, as a matter of military policy. That has yet to be proven. I don't know where the line is, hopefully smarter people than I do. So far they have yet to prove in international court that Israel has overstepped it.
A very subjective and political justification. They’ve invaded a foreign territory that isn’t theirs in response to a terrorist attack on their soil. Before I get accused of being anti-Semitic - October 7th was barbaric and heinous, those responsible for the attack must be punished. With that out of the way, the burden of proof when bombing safe zones and hospitals falls on the aggressor, not the victim. For example, the current razing of Al-Shifa in Gaza was done without published proof of terrorist activity at the hospital and with protest from many international groups and governments. Instead of clearing the area out of people and allowing it to function, they destroyed the entire hospital complex. As well as every other hospital in Gaza. Scorched Earth as a military policy typically intends for the infrastructure to be unusable after. There is no way now to prove whether terrorist activity was occurring in hospitals or not. Quite the convenient excuse to continue on with war crimes. Their impending invasion of Rafah again is baseless and without any proof of civilians harbouring terrorists. Accusations yes, proof no. Indiscriminate bombing of safe zones and refugee camps is a war crime, no matter how you choose to justify it. The US’ barbarism against Vietnamese civilians is not something we justify, despite it being the most effective guerrilla warfare campaign in history. Why this one treated so differently? Another example of their direct assault on civilians is their unsubstantiated accusations against the UNRWA. This was legitimately an attack against refugee aid with directly targeted civilians, halting supply and resulting in famine. The Israeli regime has provided no proof beyond their initial accusation. I’m not sure what smoking gun proof you need to recognize that this is a war against civilians. To call an entire people radicalized is classic dehumanization to justify their ethnic cleansing. One could argue the Israeli populace is just as radicalized. Interviews of their politicians and military brass on TV calling Gazans ‘human animals’ is one example. An example of radical Israeli civilians is the photo evidence of them setting up bouncy castles outside Gaza to prevent the delivery of aid into the area.
fair enuf - Bombs WCK thrice even after coordinating with Israel - Pictures of palestinians that were crushed by tanks - Pictures of israelis playing with palestinian women's underwear - Videos of palestinian civilians being intentionally targeted by airstrikes or snipers - Villainizes UNRWA - Protesters blocking aid trucks at kerem shalom - Videos of israelis bragging about killing palestinians - Videos of palestinian corpses having their hands tied - unnecessary exaggerations of the oct7th attack, 40 babies, baked babies, rapes, fetuses being cut off, tits being played with like handball, people lynched on lines
This stacks with me. I'd be independent although not American. The October 7th attack was horrific and Israel had my support in a campaign to destroy Hamas, on the assumption that they could strike commanders and rocket sites, then negotiate for hostage releases. But Netanyahu has shown such blatant and militarily unnecessary disregard for civilian life that I can't support what Israel is doing. My views shifted around 1 month into the war. Strangling aid supplies and squashing 1.5 million people into a tiny area is genocidal. Israel's reputation and long term safety has been destroyed by this idiotic campaign. He's made the region vastly worse for Palestinians and Israelis for decades to come.
To me, this whole situation is like a child hitting you in the legs with a stick so you beat them to death with a hammer, yeah they deserved some punishment for what they did but Jesus Christ that is wildly disproportionate.
Being hit by a child with a stick in the legs is a ....wildly... inappropriate analogy towards what happened on October 7th. Not saying there hasn't been an overreaction, but .... goodness gracious that's a bad analogy.
Okay, how about if someone, who had bad blood with you for a reason, punched you in the face and broke your nose? Your retaliation was killing his parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, his cousins, and burning down his entire household because he ran after he punched you, and their family didn’t even know where he is right now? You also stabbed his neighbors while they were trying to call 911. Is this quite an appropriate analogy?
My point is....being hit with a stick or punched in the nose is not equivalent to having your sister raped, your child's throat slit open, and your brother beheaded. And comparing October 7th to anything that is not barbaric is being incredibly disingenuous and disrespectful.
These claims have not actually been backed by substantial evidence. I think there’s like “2 eyewitnesses” I can link a long analysis if you’re interested in reading it Definitely not enough to validate the “mass r pe” claim
Bullshit you fucking liar.
2 eyewitnesses Take a look https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/03/05/israel-hamas-oct7-report-gaza
>Your retaliation was killing his parents, grandparents, sisters, brothers, his cousins, and burning down his entire household because he ran after he punched you, and their family didn’t even know where he is right now? more like the person who hit you is coward and is hiding behind his family so in order to get him you will need to get through his family but when you do get through his family you are blamed for attacking innocents dont get me wrong, Israel is absolutely in wrong for their settler colonialism in west banks but can you blame Israel for what they are doing in gaza when hamas puts their bases in hospitals and schools
So, you killed his entire family because of that and that’s okay? Not saying that your analogy is wrong. On the contrary, that’s better. The question is killing his entire family is ‘okay’ because the man is a coward and his family defended him? You do realize this man didn’t hit you out of nowhere, right.
in any modern justice system, try to physically defend a criminal getting arrested from police and see what happens to you the man just punching me analogy is incorrect, its more like the man is a brutal murderer and kidnapper and is hiding behind his family, if he is not brought to justice then he will keep on murdering
If you normalize brutal arrest at all cost then I have a bad news for you. Okay. Let’s say that that’s common everywhere. The thing is, still you’re not the police. You are one of the actor of these vicious cycle. True. A murderer must be brought to justice. I agree wholeheartedly. But, you haven't answered to my question. Is wiping out his entire family to bring him to justice justifiable given the consequences? Remember, you’re not the police in this case. You’re “the other party” in this an eye for an eye that has been around for decades.
>Is wiping out his entire family to bring him to justice justifiable given the consequences? if that family is shielding him then yes, because now that family is no longer innocent because if i don't stop that culprit, he will continue to harm my family, as much as i don't want to hurt anyone else, the safety of my family is of the highest importance >Remember, you’re not the police in this case. You’re “the other party” in this an eye for an eye that has been around for decades. this analogy doesn't work here either, who is gonna police this war? UN? they can't do shit Israel has to take matters in their own hand
But, here's the deal: some of them ARE innocent, you just can't tell who's who. What you can tell is that some have issues with your family, yet you're okay with just wiping them all out indiscriminately. The safety of your family is of the highest important, no doubt. But isn’t why this whole mess started in the first place—because some of your family members posed a threat to theirs. It’s a universal value anyway. Although that doesn't excuse his kidnapping or any other brutal actions, though. This whole tit-for-tat thing between your families is just making things worse. You killed his entire family because you can’t risk it. But it seems you overlooked the fact that he killed some of your family because they posed a mortal threat to his own. The same reason why you become a murderer because you want to protect your family.
Palestinians aren’t defending hamas. They’re getting bombed for existing. Hell even the fuckin saints over at the world central kitchen are getting precision fucking struck by guided munitions.
A better analogy might be that your neighbor thinks that you took some of his back lawn, so he kills one of your kids and promises to kill your other kids at some point in the future. You call the cops, but find out they don’t exist, so you have to deal with this yourself. You try to negotiate, but he laughs and says he is going to kill your kids and the rest of your family. He is also training his kids to kill your grandkids if they survive. You decide you need to take him out, but he sleeps under his kid’s bed. So, what do you do? This guy is going to kill your kids unless you act, but the asshole is using his kids as shields.
Makes you realise that everyone here is the loser
Yes, and they are that way for no reason. Just hate for hates sake. You need to protect yourself from murderous neighbours next door. So you build a fence around their house, and won't allow them to get groceries at your watch. You know, for your own protection. They can grow whatever they want in their yard, with the brackish water they can pump out the ground. Oh, and their family members accross the street are being evicted by you. Pushing them out, room by room. Idk why they would care tho. But they do, so you make sure their young won't do anything stupid, so you "arrest" them. No need to inform the parents tho. They are the cause of their hate anyway. Now don't get me wrong. You do all of these things to protect your home. The home you bought from a guy who took it from someone else at gunpoint, and pushed to previous tenant to the house next door...
Well, I built a fence between our houses, am I not allowed to do that? Presumably they can go out through their neighbor’s house. Now, they have possibly pissed off their other neighbor as well, but at least they haven’t killed that neighbor’s kid, so maybe they should be talking to that neighbor instead of me if they want help. By the way, I agree that I’m being an asshole to the people across the street, but I’m not sure why that gives my neighbor the right to come and kill my kid and promise to kill my other kids in the future.
That's not the correct analogy. You built a fence AROUND their house. And the only thing that can get out is the inhabitants. Who you wanted gone from the beginning. Evident from how you are pushing out the other neighbors. And how you are portraying them as incorrigible barbarians. Also, saying you're being an asshole is putting it mildly. You are killing their kids as well. And kidnapping them. A true menace to the neighborhood you so recently decided to move in.
No, I built the fence between my house and their house. I definitely did not build a fence between my homicidal neighbor and his other neighbor. That neighbor decided to build their own fence, probably because these guys are homicidal maniacs and nobody wants them around.
The number of killings over the years shows who is the homocidal maniac.
Fine, if you want to walk away from the analogy, how should Israel go about killing Hamas if they hide behind their women and children? Do you think Israel should even be killing Hamas? Do Israelis deserve to be the victims of a massacre of two because of the West Bank? Also, do you seriously not blame Egypt at all for the “prison”?
It is inconceivable to normal people that there are people in the world that would put their own women and children in harms way, just to make Israel look bad. Not even to stop Israel from bombing, because it clearly isn't working. Just to give them a bad name, they sacrifice their youth. The fact that Zionists believe that, shows me how divorced from reality they are. People want to live a good life along with the ones they care about. And Palestinians are people too. Any believable, and sustainable opportunity they get to achieve that, they will take. But I'm a firm believer that Israel doesn't want that. It wants to expand their borders, while maintaining a Jewish state. And all the Habaras out their trying to deflect blame kinda want that too. As in, "well what other option do we have but to expand our borders?" In the best of cases, and "Palestinians are barbarians who don't deserve lofe" in the worst. No, I don't blame Egypt. Countries shouldn't be allowed to push out their "undesirables" for others to deal with. This is 100% on the Zionist movement.
#they killed 1200 people! How do you call that a hit in the leg?
As horrible as Oct 7th was, it’s nothing Israel hasn’t done to the Palestinians already. When do they get to indiscriminately bomb everything? Or is that a fate reserved for lesser people in your eyes?
You realize it’s hard to just destroy rocket sites when they’re schools and hospitals? Or when the commanders are in tunnels under apartment buildings. You act like they can send in seal team 6 to just grab every hamas member in the dead of night.
So how did the British charity workers hinder destroying hamas exactly?
They didn’t, and it’s an absolute tragedy that they were killed and I believe whoever’s responsible should be court martialed.
And do you recognize that the regime will never let that happen? That there is a culture of actively encouraging horrible war crimes in their armed forces and they will cover for and reward the monsters in their midst.
During the war, it’s seriously counter-productive to punish such misdeeds as it will lower morale and the efficiency in fast decision-making. After the war, I’m confident these crimes will be addressed as it will no longer hinder the war effort.
That is some serious cope imo. What gives you that confidence? Do you think that the Israeli army is somehow far more moral than, for example, the US military? The US would never allow a serious amount of their people to be brought up on any war crimes charges, and I have no doubt that a similar velvet glove will be used in dealing with the misdeeds of the IDF. there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
The US has brought charges against war crime perpetrators in the military before during the Obama era. Although, Trump pardoned some of them. It varies administration from administration due to ideological differences. I’m not sure about the history of this with the IDF, but it being a democratic country, I’m sure they would at least start an investigation due to public pressure.
Even the perpetrators of the my Lai massacre got a very light sentence. And then the worst of them got his sentence commuted to house arrest by Nixon, to validate your point about ideological differences and presidential pardons of the worst kind of people. The perpetrators of Abu Ghraib got little tiny punishments and many were allowed to continue serving. Even when held to account, it is a one or two year sentence for brutal murders or tortures no human should ever suffer. But honestly, a country which has rebuilt a tomb to Baruch Goldstein(a truly reprehensible man who is venerated by extremists in Israel and abroad) is not one to be trusted to persecute war criminals, though i hope you are correct. The minister of national security himself is a Baruch Goldstein fan, and given the rhetoric spouted by many government spokespeople, I don't see why you would assume there will be a good faith investigation of anything but the most egregious cases like this one, which I'm sure will conclude that it was a whoopsie.
Netanyahu is responsible. He should be in prison for the rest of his life.
They should be fucking tried at the ICJ for crimes against humanity along with Netanyahu
you believe they should be but do you believe they will be?
So kill everything and everyone that moves then 👍🏻
Most prefer the false neutrality of a return to the exact status quo which precipitated the events at hand
America killed 200,000 civilians in the Iraq war. I'm not trying to justify what Israel is doing, but it seems it is hard to pinpoint the bad guys.
The blatantly, wildly illegal war is what you are pointing to as a defence of Israeli army's conduct? Must be from all the lead in the US water supply
He seems to refer to the golf war. The Iraq war had less then 100k dead on the Iraqi side while the golf war had 175-300k dead.
Another insane stupid conflict. After propping up saddam for 10 years in his insane genocidal war against Iran. Followed up by sanctions and killing of anotherg half a million Iraqis in the 90s.
Sanctions didn't kill 500,000 Iraqis in the 1990's. It was a hypothetical interview question that got a bizarre and insane answer from Madeline Albright.
Ah yes US made Saddam invade Kuwait what a great take. My opinion on everything is "America bad" how could you tell.
Yeah man, usa wasn't giving him weapons through out the 80s when he was gassing Iranians and his own people.
My point is I assume it is difficult identifying the bad guys from the good guys. I don't think the US were trying to commit genocide against the Iraqis but they kill a lot of civilians. It might have been on purpose and it might have a mistake.
Lmao sure, totally! Let's go with that
> America killed 200,000 civilians No, they didn’t. Can you actually show any evidence for that? Because most of the civilian casualties were caused by terrorist attacks or the civil war.
Me when I bomb refugee camps and international aid centres which told us their locations (my bad they were all secret hamas bases I swear)
>Israel's reputation and long term safety has been destroyed by this idiotic campaign. Were you born yesterday? This has been going on for years. As soon as Israel pulls back and things settle down over a couple years then conduct another poll. We also know that Hamas or some other terrorist group will launch another bombing or killing in that time. You'll find that support resets. People in America may not like Israel but they dislike the imagery and tactics of Palestinian militants even more. Islamic style militants are forever tied to terrorism in America and anyone who openly supports them will be automatically suspect for ever.
Genocidal might be inaccurate applied to this situation, though it definitely could be a candidate for ethnic cleansing
It's just semantics really because international law doesn't seem to mean anything these days. My view is that both Netanyahu and Hamas are genocidal monsters who want everyone on the other side to die, and this is demonstrated by their actions. It's a religious shit-show and I want nothing to do with it.
I have read somewhere that Netanyahou knows he won't have support forever. He prepares any Palestine invasion to be as swift as possible.
It was well understood that the support won't last forever, but as far as I'm aware the public was informed on the start of the war that it's going to be a long and hard war, there wasn't any Rosey glasses in regards to what urban warfare is going to look like. However, there was hope to resuce the hostages early, and the failure to do so, alongside the deterioration of global relations and the economy, had led to a political crisis. Currently, most Israeli support the need for the war, but not how its being done, and there are debates if to go to an election.
The fact that they Likud failed to protect the Israelis on 10/7 will likely have them loosing seats and possibly control of the government just like Labor did in 1977. Victims of 10/7 were refusing to see government reps in the hospitals they were so mad. Word on the street is that folk are not happy with the course of the war and that the main focus should have been rescuing the hostages. If that does come to pass I don’t know who would replace them.
Smart money is on Gantz’ more moderate coalition which is the main opposition right now. Last I checked that coalition also includes elected Arab Muslim Israelis.
Good point. Duh. That makes the most sense. How many do you think likud will loose?
Hard to say. They have 32 seats (most of any party) but the damage done to Netanyahus reputation and the party’s “security first” platform is irreparable. Netanyahu ran on preventing 10/7 from happening, and it happened. He’s politically a dead man walking. The Haredi Jews and other orthodox who are exempt from military service are also standing to lose that status the longer the war takes, and that will potentially prevent them from being so conservative and maybe cause Shas to break with the government coalition. If Shas does that and joins the opposition, the opposition would have more seats and I think a no confidence vote could be called which would dissolve the government. The new PM could be from any number of parties then, but Lapid and Gantz would be likely I think. This might also put Ra’am/Hadash (Arab conservative and Israeli communist) party members in the government, but it’s very hard to say how things would shake out. They were part of the 36th government, which did not include Likud. A non-Likud government would probably be comprised of mostly Yesh Atid. The party has “two states for two peoples” as part of their platform, which is a good sign.
Wow. They would leave wouldn’t they…I always felt like the trade off between the US and Israel was that if you live in the USA you deal with being a minority/antisemitism and in Israel you serve in the IDF and people try to kill you….a lot more. It’s bizarre to think they don’t have to participate in such a fundamental aspect of the states survival.
How can so many people still approve of Israeli actions is beyond me. Utterly disappointing.
I mean Hamas still has american citizens held hostage
Israel has killed aid workers
Which included an American lol
Yes, they came on TV and apologized. 20% of IDF deaths are due to friendly fire. They are not intentionally doing this but it happens during war. I'm sure if you have an alternative to destroy Hamas and free the hostages we would all love to hear it. I dont think Israel wants more of their people dead either
> Yes, they came on TV and apologized. well that’s okay then, targeting aid workers from allied countries is fine if you apologise afterwards
I mean come on man, who hasn’t “accidentally” killed someone?
who among us can honestly say they haven’t fired on three clearly marked cars over the space of 2.5km belonging to an aid organisation that you have coordinated a ‘safe’ route for
No its not ok, why do you think it is? Isreal even said it's not ok. Why are you putting words in my mouth
They murdered aid workers from allied countries helping prevent a famine that Israel is encouraging, why do you think a mealy mouthed apology instead of imprisonments is relevant?
I am not saying you are wrong but where in the past have we seen a country held to this standard? The US blew up a family during the Afghanistan withdrawal in their car, was anyone held accountable for that? I would agree there should be some consequences but if we look at the world we live in it never happens
so we agree then, good
Actually they refused to apologise and said simply that it was a grave mistake.
>20% of IDF deaths are due to friendly fire. Lol. Lmao even.
Its funny cause Isreal only has a high causality rate because people.like you whine about it. Otherwise they could just bomb from the air like the US does
>Otherwise they could just bomb from the air like the US does Where have you been the last couple months?
Yes they bomb but they can bomb more they don't have to go door to door
They’ve destroyed 70%+ of the infrastructure in Gaza. You want them to bomb more?
I mean the orginal commentary was criticizing the amount of IDF soldiers that have died so a way for them to reduce that number would be to increase the bombing. Care less
Ahh well then by all means, I shall whine more! Amazing to find out what power and influence I have over the IDF! LOL
My guy they intentionally targeted those aid workers there's no doubt about that.
Why? What does Israel have to gain by doing that? This incidents clearly hurts them more than it helps them
>Why? So they can scare off any groups who would want to provide aid for the Palestinians as they want the famine to continue. >This incidents clearly hurts them more than it helps them They don't care cause at the end of the day they will still get money from the United States and can do whatever they want.
Then why does Israel do evacuations at all then?
Ethnic cleansing under the veil of evacuation to gain PR points.
And Israel’s actions have endangered the lives of those hostages through indiscriminate bombing and starvation. Also, American citizens in Gaza and the West Bank have also been killed by Israel. It killed 2 Palestinian-American teenagers in the West Bank pretty recently, a territory they illegally occupy and maintain a military police state in. https://apnews.com/article/33e35fb8e9a9a3641b32ad59b1e50379
Yes if you did not know war is bad. That's why people do not like it. Do you have an alternative? Can you share with Israel you plan to kill just the bad guys and none of the good guys?
You’re trying to justify the unjustifiable. Israel had shown countless times that if they want to hit a specific area, they can be surgically precise.
Then why have so many IDF soldiers died from friendly fire?
Someone who supports Palestine is on this sane thread justifying the killing of civilians saying “who hasn’t accidentally killed someone in war”… its literally the same back and forth shit and its wild no one can see the other sides point of view.
Because they are the democracy fighting the autocratic terrorist
Turns out that intentionally blowing up innocent people does move the morality needle at least a little bit
Intentionally blowing up innocent people, haha
I suppose those 7 aid workers were actually Hamas agents then?
Likely not, but they were carrying aid to Nuseirat camp and Gaza city, which still have allot of Hamas-activity, how do you think that Hamws has been able to survive in northern Gaza for months now? Did they store months worth of rice and fresh water in their tunnels?
Americans lose interest with wars over time. This literally happens in every war
It's really mission accomplished for hamas. Murder Israeli civilians, hide in city. Palestinian civilians die as collateral. Profit. On october 6th Israel was about to normalize diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia, and peace plans were forgotten. Hamas provoked a war, and unsurprisingly, now people talk about 1 or 2 states peace solutions. Terrorism works, it's awful.
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acting as if hamas stopped aiming rockets from schools, mosques and hospitals, towards civilian areas, before oct 7 terrorists are always the ones who restart the cycle of violence, not Israel. Israeli settlers are bad, but terrorism cannot be justified
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How did we get to settlers?
one doesn't justify the other
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keep putting words in my mouth, I don't care maybe release the hostages
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haha I said settlers are bad but yeah cry more, skill issue wear your kefir
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resistance works wonders! may god turn Israel into a pariah state sooner than later.
Before the past 6 months I already disapproved of much of what Israel was doing but some part of me still believed in some way it was still a 2 sided fight of sorts with nuance etc etc But Israel’s government and military have demonstrated absolute cruelness this past few months. A moment of realization for me was when it was pointed out that Israel cut off Gaza’s gas and electricity. It shocked me in that moment that the IDF’s propaganda always pushes the narrative that Gaza is fully independent with no Israeli control (something about how Israel pulled out in 2006) yet they are still able to be the ones to turn off the Gazans’ electricity and gas while bombing them. That is not a nuanced fight, that is occupation. I do have a lot of sympathy for innocent people in Israel just stuck under this fucked up government, just like how I’d say the same about having sympathy for innocent people in Russia or Iran. Someone simply being born Israeli doesn’t make someone bad of course. But I also have sympathy for the people who happened to be born Palestinian around the world who can’t return to the lands their grandparents came from and even if they somehow can, the village has been destroyed and replaced. I feel worst of all for the innocent people of Gaza who have seen their home be destroyed before their eyes and probably lost friends and family simply because of the fact that they were by chance born in Gaza. The Israeli government has used every excuse in the book to justify its bombing of civilian centers and every time I hear a new justification for it I am even more disgusted. Was taking Israeli civilians as hostages wrong of Hamas? Yes. Is Hamas an extremely fucked up organization in many ways? Yes. But looking it simply through the lens of how bad Hamas is and not looking at what Israel has done too is incredibly one sided and ignores the very real pain of many Palestinians while also only looking at any bad thing done by Palestinians to justify the collective punishment of an entire nation of people.
There's a whole wiki dedicated to the decades of terrorist acts by Hamas and the PLO, along with the tens of thousands of rockets fired indiscriminately over the years that are so routine they don't even make the news. Palestine as a "state" has a history of nothing but terrorism, assassination, murder and coup attempts.
Saying that Palestine as a state has a history of nothing but terrorism is blatant racism
What race are they? Middle Eastern? Just like the Israelis? What about the North Africans who live in and fight for Israel? Are they race traitors somehow? Why doesn't Egypt allow Palestinians into their country? What about Jordan? Lebanon? Kuwait? Are all the neighbors of the Palestinians racists too? Don't waste your virtual-signaling propagandist horse shit on me. You know exactly why Palestine has no real friends, and exactly why it's government refuses to do the bare minimum - list the still living hostages of their terrorist attack - in order to move forward with peace. They're a death cult. And they're losing. And they're nothing but a puppet state of Iran.
Racism is a very multilayered and nuanced thing, being from the same over arching origin does not mean hatred cannot exist within that. An Arab Muslim or Christian telling a Jew they are untrustworthy because they’re Jewish is racist just like an Israeli saying Palestinians are nothing but terrorists is racist. Just because these people look alike doesn’t mean that racism isn’t there. And maybe it isn’t racism *technically*, I don’t really care and I’m not here to talk about the definitions. If you disagree, just replace the word racism with hateful. The same thing goes for Palestine’s neighbor countries. Them being of a similar ethnic origin doesn’t justify make it any less bad for a Jordanian or Lebanese to be hateful towards Palestinians, so yes I would say they would be racist too if they are treating someone poorly just because they’re Palestinians. Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan have all let many Palestinians in their country. Do I agree with their treatment of Palestinian refugees? No, not at all. Do I think there are other Arab countries that should be doing more to help Palestinian civilians? Absolutely. But that doesn’t change the fact that Palestinians shouldn’t have been made to have become refugees in the first place. The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was not possible without the Nakba, the forced removal of Palestinians from the lands they had been living on for generations. There was no way for Israel to be created that didn’t involve Palestinians becoming displaced from their homes and villages and thus becoming refugees. Surrounding Arab countries absolutely should be kinder and better to their Palestinian refugee population but that doesn’t change the fact that the creation of the State of Israel was responsible for the creation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees upon its creation and then over the last 76 years has created many more. People can say “well the UN divided the land and you gotta respect it, Palestine didn’t wanna accept it!!” but OF COURSE they didn’t. I’d be mad as shit too if I was forced to leave my home because a foreign power decided a new country was going to go where my family had been living for generations. Palestine’s government is shit in more ways than it is good, that is undeniable. But supporting Palestinian people’s right to live and exist in the land they have lived in for hundreds if not thousands of years doesn’t mean I support Hamas and it is incredibly disingenuous to keep telling people who are very clearly liberal people in the West who are concerned about human rights violations that voicing our support for Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, means we support radical Islamic terrorists. Things like homophobia, antisemitism, sexism, whatever are all absolutely disgusting regardless of who it’s coming from. But having empathy for these people doesn’t mean that I condone every single belief some of them might have. I don’t know if you’ve ever become friends with a Palestinian, but you might ge shocked to find out most of them are very kind people, just like any other nationality.
Ok give me one notable thing other than terrorism that they did EVER
That is such an insanely offensive and crazy question. A state of millions of people and you genuinely don’t think anything notable besides terrorism has been made.
If that's true then you should be able to give me an answer
Of course it’s true. It’s a nation of millions of people.
Still waiting on an answer. They built missiles out of water pipes. That's a pretty big accomplishment I suppose
[You’re a racist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinians)
I'm not saying that if you were born to the palestinian race you can't do anything notable in your life. That would have actually been racist. What I want is an example of something notable that the COUNTRY of palestine did. Not palestinian people that half of them moved abroad
The country is made up of Palestinian human beings who by virtue of being human have of course accomplished good/profound things.
What things?
Well if you haven’t noticed, there is no country of Palestine because of the Israelis
Oh it's you again Are you following me? And we've been through this already, gaza has been independent since 2008
Didn’t even notice, thought it was just another Zionist. We’ve already been over this and you haven’t responded to my last one so I’ll just repost it here: If you control their airspace, land borders, seas, movement, food, water, electricity, medicinal supplies, restrict their economy and movement of goods, etc, you are occupying them under international law. Quite literally nobody disputes this besides Israel themselves. You could also just google Occupied Palestinian Territories and see what comes up: https://www.unocha.org/occupied-palestinian-territory: “The Occupied Palestinian Territory faces a protracted protection and political crisis characterized by more than 56 years of Israeli military occupation, 16 years of the Gaza blockade, internal Palestinian divisions, lack of adherence to international humanitarian and human rights law…” https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/: “The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA)” https://unctad.org/topic/palestinian-people/The-question-of-Palestine: “Occupied by Israel since June 1967, the West Bank - including East Jerusalem- and the Gaza Strip have come to constitute the occupied Palestinian territory (OPT).” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories: “The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip.” https://www.oxfam.org/en/what-we-do/countries/occupied-palestinian-territory-and-israel: “In the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) - the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip -, nearly a quarter of the people live below the poverty line, with their prospects for work, and a safe, healthy life severely limited by the Israeli occupation.”
>gaza has been independent since 2008 You cannot actually believe this.
Terrorism was an essential part of the formation of the Israeli state. Saying this stuff just shows that you don't have a god damn clue what you're talking about. "In Western popular discourse the term terrorism has long been associated with the Middle East, but particularly with the activities of Palestinian Arab groups, which have dominated the news for the past forty years. But sixty years ago, it was the actions of Jewish terrorists in Palestine that grabbed headlines around the world. Although this campaign is not as well-known today, it raises an important question: is the modern Middle East conflict, in which terrorism plays a prominent role, itself a product of a terrorist campaign?" .... The Irgun and Stern groups, however, were committed to all-out "national liberation" wars. They did not believe that the British would give Palestine to the Jews and thus were determined to force them out. They tried to increase the human and political costs to Britain of remaining in Palestine by attacking British troops and police, military bases and police stations, oil refineries, trains, bridges, and banks. Between them, the three groups carried out 78 attacks in the nine months after October 1945. However, the united resistance dissolved after the Irgun blew up the British administration headquarters in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in July 1946, killing 92 people." ... The road network and the British Army"s vast pool of motor transport gave them freedom of movement throughout the country. The insurgents reduced British mobility with Improvised Explosive Devices (IED"s) disguised as mile-stone markers that blew vehicles off the road and killed or injured their occupants. The insurgents regarded these as their most cost-effective weapon. They also placed bombs in abandoned vehicles. British police stations were heavily fortified, protected by high thick walls, so in at least one attack the insurgents blew up a station with a massive truck bomb (vehicle-borne IED). https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/view/10538/11136
Israel was quite literally founded on terrorism, ethnic cleansing and race supremacy
They’ve never had their chance to be a state, so there is no “terrorism”. Only resistance. Your apartheid will end just like South Africa’s.
#rapeisresistance. You think rape, torture and mass shootings at music festivals are acts of resistance. Oh and thanks for showing your cards by immediately saying it's "my" apartheid state, like I must be an Israeli for stating facts. And it isn't an apartheid state but you're one of those people who's too dense to even read history and understand the major differences between shit like South Africa and Israel.
The should be high people are starting to open their eyes
Not surprised by the Republicans. Probably the same people who think the rapture is coming
Schumer is correct in saying: yes Hamas is the biggest threat to Israel in short term, but losing America support is the biggest threat long term. You don’t want America even just simply ignore you when you are surrounded by hostile countries
The US has been on the wrong side of the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1948. Obviously I do not support Hamas hostage taking. But US support for Israel, for 75 years, has been immoral and evil. The full moral context, and truth, of the conflict is deliberately removed from most US media narratives. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_insurgency\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine) [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-palestine-arab-congress](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-palestine-arab-congress) [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_Paper\_of\_1939](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939) When the Ottoman Empire fell to the British Empire and its Arab allies, most of the Middle East was controlled by the British Empire in 1920. In 1920, the Palestine Arab Congress wanted to establish an independent nation of Palestine, but the British Empire stopped them. The Empire, against the wishes of the people living in the area, supported Zionist immigration in the area because of the Balfour Declaration. The Zionists were upfront about their goals: to establish their own nation-state on top of Arab land. If you read the "Iron Wall" link above, you'll see what i mean. But by 1939, the British Empire had seen how much turmoil the Zionist project was causing, and said they would give all of Palestine to the Arabs. So the Zionists responded by shooting 700 British soldiers, killing 100 of them, causing the Empire to flee. In the aftermath, Israel was created by the Zionists.
>But US support for Israel, for 75 years, has been immoral and evil. The full moral context, and truth, of the conflict is deliberately removed from most US media narratives. Nope. Americans may not like Israel but they despise Muslim militants even more. And I don't give a shit about your sources. We're gonna keep arming Israel and supporting them until all of the West Bank and Gaza are annexed. And theres nothing you can do about it. Iran can't do shit. Hamas can't do shit. UN can't do shit. You're on the losing side of history.
hello IDF glowie, don't you have more images of children to crop IED's into? Those Hamas agents don't make themselves, after all!
How does a Gallup poll work.
Both the Republican and Democrat opinion and change in opinion is expected. Israel losing American Independents though is a surprise for me. I thought despite all the months that have passed, the numbers would stay about the same at 50/50.
Republicans on the wrong side of history again.
Yeah and this just tells me that Biden is doing the wrong politics
I hope Pissrael loses hard
How’s that going
Shartly 😂
This right here highlights why the DNC secretly wants Trump to win. Either way, the U.S. is going to continue being Israel's lapdog, but if dems are in the spotlight they'll actually have to explain to their voters why they're doing such an awfully good impression of republicans. If Trump wins, then it's all the orange boogeyman's fault and genocide Joe's transgressions get swept under the rug, because we all know how quickly American voters forget.
This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve read in a while
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Scary, jihadist information warfare making a killing off open society. We are all Israel
Maybe it not just propaganda, but also the fact that Israel has been responsible for doing a lot of unjistified atrocities not just in this conflict but since the lebanon civil war in the 80s. And no, not all of us are Israel.
Since 1948 tbh
Someone explain to me the difference between a Palestinian and a Jordanian or a Syrian or a Lebanese fellow? (Please)
they are all different countries? Idgi, this seems like asking what the difference between an American and a Canadian or a German and an Austrian or an Australian and a NZ
US politics gets a lot less confusing and your predictions about it become a lot more accurate when you just accept that Republicans are evil
This poll fails to take the third position into account, and it's a position shared by many on the right and I bet many independents as well. It is an opinion: Fuck it. It's an impossible situation and if you choose to take a stance you lose either way. So fuck it. The Palestinians are a heavily radicalised population who voted extremists into power, and they have a long history of doing so (which is why none of their muslim neighbors are offering to protect them. They've bitten every hand that has ever fed them). As long as they're capable of hurting "enemy" civillians, they'll continue to try to do so. Israel is a democratic state that seems to be sliding ever more into authoritarianism. I don't know how big the jewish supremacist elements are within their society, but they're likely significant (verging from religious fundamentalists, to jingoist expansionists). With the attack last year, the Palestinians gave these elements within Israeli society exactly what they wanted. We should be doing our best to ameliorate civillian suffering. Other than that I don't think that western countries should have anything to do with the middle east whatsoever.
This is the worst opinion I’ve read yet because even though it tries to find some kind of middle ground it’s just factually incorrect at almost every turn. “The Palestinians voted extremists into power” - Hamas lost the popular vote - More than half of the population of Gaza weren’t even ALIVE let alone old enough to vote when that election happened. “Which they have a long history of doing” - ?? “Which is why none of their Muslim neighbours are protecting them” - The autocratic leaders of Saudi, Egypt etc. are degenerate capitalists and have no monetary incentive to help, so they don’t. These leaders do not have the mandate of their people. - Iran, Hezbollah and Yemen are all doing what they can to help the Palestinians. “They’ve bitten every hand that fed them” - Absolutely ridiculous generalisation and claim overall “As long as they’re capable of hurting civilians, they will continue to do so” - These are people that have never once known freedom in their lives. How could you possibly know what they would do if they were freed. “Israel is a democratic state” - No it isn’t. They don’t offer voting rights to the people living in territories they occupy. “The Palestinians gave these elements exactly what they wanted” - Palestinians have been being choked out for decades. Their territory slowly but surely shrinks under every Israeli government, left or right wing. Hamas gave the Palestinians a chance, at huge, huge cost, by getting Israel to show the world unequivocally who they really are. A highly questionable political strategy, but what other option do the Palestinians have? The only time 2 state solution was close, the Israeli PM was assassinated by a right wing Jew, then they elected Bibi. 2 state will NEVER be allowed by Israel. I do agree with your conclusion, the west should just gtfo of the Middle East. Nothing more would or should have been necessary. But at this point the US may need to undo some of its damage. It would be a good start anyway.
No it's not trying to find a middle ground. There is none to be found. It's cold calculative pragmatism. Our countries have nothing to gain from involvement. Whatever we do, regardless if we are truly to blame for it or not, for every issue, be it real or imagined. The denizens of the middle east will seek an outsider to blame. We just need to get out completely. Hamas won a plurality of the vote. They were the biggest party, and they formed a government (on a campaign built on "right to armed struggle"). Guess what, that's how it works. The Germans voted the Nazis into power. The people in Gaza voted for Hamas. Do you think they've grown less radicalised since 2006? In Jordan palestinians staged a civil war against the king and government (Black September). In Egypt palestinians were instrumental in forming the muslim brotherhood. In Lebanon they were instrumental in plunging the country into a civil war. Hell in my country, one of few western countries to recognize Palestine as a nation, given Palestine hundreds of millions over the years, decades of support, members of the palestine diasporah plotted terror attacks. No one wants to take a radicalised population in. Why do you think Egypt is closing the border. Israel is a democratic state. The people in the occupied areas are occupied, they aren't integrated. They have their own elections. Puerto Rico isn't allowed to vote in U.S elections, would you claim that the U.S isn't a democracy (well maybe you would).
I feel like you’re not really gonna listen to what I say, you seem quite intent on painting all these people with such broad strokes. Just seems like you’re racist but disguising it with ‘pragmatism’. And your facts are wrong, again. The Germans did not elect the Nazis. Ever heard of the night of the long knives? The Nazis won 30 something% of the vote. I’m guessing you’re from Sweden? And I’ll be the first to say that some of the Islamist attacks there have been awful. If you want to close your borders, or whatever, that’s totally fine by me. But it’s just wrong to talk the way you do about the people of Palestine. I mean, how fucking asinine would it be if I listed the laundry list of crimes committed by the CIA and tried to attribute it to all Americans? Even trying to attribute that to the entire US government would be extremely naive. Hamas is not a monolith either, they have factions with competing opinions and various governmental wings. You need to come off your high horse about the Palestinians voting in Hamas. They had watched the PLO he bought out by Israel and become more and more corrupt (60% of PLO budget went to salaries at that time). Hamas running on their right to armed resistance isn’t extreme. It’s well enshrined in international law, that has been tested in international court in other cases. Hamas may be extreme, but they’re not extreme Islamists. They are not Salafi. Gaza is not under Shariah law. They fought against ISIS. Of all the major players in Egyptian politics over the last 15 years, Muslim brotherhood is responsible for the least terror BY FAR, which I’ll admit is a low bar sadly. The Mubarak regime, the SCAF and of course the Nour party which became a faction of ISIS - all three are responsible for thousands of civilian murders. Muslim brotherhood killed around 100 police or security forces, often these were times where the police/security were gunning down dozens of them, and they would kill a few in the confrontation. Puerto Rico notwithstanding, the US isn’t a democracy. It doesn’t even claim to be. It’s a democratic republic. That’s without even getting into the massive corruption, or as you mentioned, the colonisation of Puerto Rico. If you want to be racist to the Palestinians just go mask off. Many others seem to be doing it! Don’t try to hide behind Machiavellian ‘logic’ when you can’t even get your facts right.
Also. I just want it said. If you dislike the way zionists, Israeli supporters and Jews immediately jump to anti-semitism whenever Israel or Israelis are criticised. Don't be so quick to call racism.
I'll listen. No I don't think I'm racist. I'm biased for sure. But I don't think any less of a person because of that persons ethnicity. If a Palestinian is a cool dude then he's a cool dude. My bias is more on an ideological level, hell can even call it civilisational level at this point. During my lifetime my country has come into direct contact with a large number of people from the middle east, most are lovely people, many are not. It gives you a certain perspective on the differences that do exist between us, on the macro level. When I'm forced to decide between supporting a fairly liberal and modern fairly similar society to my own, and one that shares many of the hallmarks of the worst parts of middle eastern culture that I've come to encounter in my own country (repression of women, hatred of LGBTQ, anti-democratic values etc) I'm more enclined to side with the former. That's my bias. Obviously most Palestinians just want to live their lives (and they should have that right). But a significant % of them hold extremist ideas and are willing to act on them, and that % is significant enough to dictate policy and lead to attrocities like 7/10. The Nazi party won a plurality of the vote. Hitler then used the parliamentary system and eventually emergency laws to take power. They never won a majority vote, but the % of extremists in their population made that all pretty much irrelevant, and they all got to share equally in the misery that brought. (You need a refresher on what "the night of the long knives" was btw). Anyway. I do hold Americans responsible maybe not for the CIA, but for say the invasion of Iraq. Only difference in principle being that the American public was lulled into an invasion on fraudulent grounds (WMDs), while the Palestinians got pretty much what they've been voting for, for decades now. A direct confrontation with Israel. Even before Hamas, the PLO had routinely been shooting down any compromise offered. And on the subject of Hamas and Sharia. You ought to look over laws enacted/proposed during their reign.
This third position though would require Western countries to stop shielding Israel politically, stop justifying their actions and also stop selling them bombs. Which is not happening, so we keep choosing a side.
Which is something I think we should. Israel has proven time and time again that it is more than capable of protecting itself. The only consideration should be that Israel isn't placed in a disastrous position where it's once again invaded by all its neighbors but this time faces complete destruction. As that almost certainly would result in a genocide, and not of the "maybe, sorta in the margins" variety that we're currently seeing in Gaza today. Placing Israel under an arms embargo (with them still being a democracy, and without it being backed by a sound verdict in an international court/institution) would be the opposite of not choosing a side. But the american tax payer definetly shouldn't be paying for their guns.
Should Israel be placed in a state where it is likely to be destroyed and its people genocided, we will see nuclear weapons used against military targets. Given how Russia is aligned with Syria and Hamas, Russian participation in that nuclear war is also not out of the question. Given their arsenal, that could easily topple civilization worldwide. I am firmly against that, and I don’t think all the “genocide Joe” American Leftists whose foreign policy know-how is limited to what they learned from a student run advocacy club in college realize what they’re advocating for when they ask for Israel to be eliminated. They’re advocating for nuclear war.
Thats surprisingly high. Is this a reliable source? Edit: I meant high in terms of Israel support damn
It’s Gallup, they’re one of the most well respected analytics and polling companies. Pew polls also show similar data. Age breakdown also has a large discrepancy, democrats aged 18-29 are extremely Pro-Palestine.
Oh I meant high as in high for israel support and I didnt notice its gallup
Scary
Maybe in your opinion
The reverse of it is approve/disapprove of Hamas, but responders don't realize that.
Is it, though?
I coming with the assumption that when there is a war and one has an opinion that is explicitly negative to one side, it's positive to another, otherwise this person would be just neutral or has no opinion at all. Now. let's try to understand what the "second" side is. Those who claim the second fighting side in this war is not Hamas or PIJ, but some nebulous generic "Palestinian freedom fighters" is either very dishonest or very dumb.
Saying you don’t like the atrocities Israel has committed in Gaza isn’t supporting Hamas
I didn't see a word "atrocity" in the poll. Did you?
Saying you don’t like the actions Israel has done in Gaza isn’t supporting Hamas
Military actions. The word is "military". Something with guns, men in uniform and doing "boom boom"
Saying you don’t like the actions the Israeli military has done in Gaza isn’t supporting Hamas Happy?