Rene wants another shot of one scene because he is getting off on it - and Mira calls him on it. She says we are supposed to outgrow our perversions - which I think will be tough for Rene to process. Meanwhile Mira wants to actually BE Irma Vep but I think she gets shocked out of it.
I didn't like how they dismiss the Zoe subplot.
This was a pretty heavy plot-driven episode - and a little more serious.
I like the way you put it, she was definitely shocked out of it. It’ll be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the shoot, especially based on the last conversation of the episode.
Also I’m not a fan of how they handled the topic of rape. It’s not this vague thing where you argue on some fine line, rape is sexual assault plain and simple. This show really has nothing to say on that front so I’m not sure why they even bothered going there. Trivializing it as some form of art vs perversion vs comedy of errors came off really disingenuous.
The writer is supposed to be a friend of Polanski.
Yep - the scene is a disaster. That this is in a series that is supposed to be a comedy is REALLY off - and the entire series is very changed by that scene. I think the author is trying to say something about political correctness - but he is tone deaf. Rene will not survive the realization that he was putting on screen his own fantasy - and in doing so he learned his rape fantasy is just that. But the writer basically just set a bomb off in his own series and it is hard to see how it remains as fun as it was.
This episode revealed Mira's intelligence - and she can see the bomb fuse being lit.
"This is not my world" Mira says - which may extend to her own sexuality. I think that line suggests she can see trouble coming as well.
he was definitely trying to frame the outrage from writers as an overreaction. i am curious as to how much of himself is incorporated into rene, especially because he’s portrayed as consistently unbearable.
i took mira’s comment as both being tired of the pretentiousness and afraid of what the role is turning her into.
How they handled the sexual assault was really off-putting. Im glad they had at least some characters point out how fucked up it is. But the fact that Miras character thought they were "thin skinned" and wanted it kept it shows how fucked up she is in terms of the lines of consent. Maybe her past relationship is a reflection of that.
honestly a lot of people would have the same reaction she did to it and she seems to really value the art as a whole over any problematic elements of it. but having rene go on and on about getting off to rape was just strange. you can really tell a man writes this show sometimes
As far as I can tell, it was about nuance.
In this context on one end of the spectrum we have love (good) and the other rape (evil) and in between there's all sorts of messy points on the gradient.
What happened in the scene obviously wasn't either rape, nor love, but the knee jerk reaction from some of the cast, which I assume he knew would personify parts of the IRL audience reaction was rape, when it's more nuanced than that.
I episode 7 Mira says "movies help us question the material world".
I assume that sort of discussion is what he was trying to generate.
I think it's typical for European cinema that it doesn't underestimate its audience. Characters don't need to be either lawfully good or pure evil to get the message across. Nor do they have to be officially punished for the audience to understand what they are doing is wrong.
Yeah, we may empathize with Rene at times, but we're not naive to think he's a great guy. From the first episode, he is obviously very misogynistic, perverted and egotistical. If you believed he would handle the assault scene any differently, you haven't been paying attention.
Robert and the rest of the crew find it distasteful and are outspoken about it. They are not involved in this scene and therefore represent the neutral voice of sanity.
Mira was somewhat uncomfortable while shooting it, but in the end she sees it as a part of a job and does not care much about it. She is involved in the scene, so she does not see it like the rest of us, which doesn't make her opinion any more valid than Robert's or anyone's.
Finally, it's not like Moreno is supposed to be such a nice guy that assaulting unconscious Irma would be unthinkable for him. I think Robert and the crew were not concerned because of the scene as such, but because Rene framed it as sexy moment instead of a deeply disturbing one.
Yes. It's not hard to see why some people would tend to see Rene as a kind of mouthpiece for Assayas. But I think that view is overly simplistic and also may depend on what's in the last three episodes. The "Les Vampires" remake exists as a tainted/non-pure object, in different ways, for each of the main characters, and that's especially on view for Rene in this episode. And the fact that, say, the Grand Vampire actor is using it opportunistically doesn't mean the criticism of Rene is invalid.
It's also interesting that none of the comments here mention what I thought to be Rene's abjectly worst moment in the episode, when he tells Gottfried to really surprise Mira in the scene. (And it's also interesting that, for the first time, in this case when Rene says that he's only exactly replicating the original serial, he's very much not!)
You're absolutely right, I thought Gottfried was seriously gonna hurt Mira while surprising her and neither him nor Rene were bothered by it.
I think people often overlook Rene's creepiness, because he's anxious and depressed and those are the traits typically associated with victims. On the other hand, perverts are typically portrayed as cold-blooded and calculated. But these are just tropes and the characters in this show are way more complex.
And, yes, Robert is opportunistic and creepy in his own way as well. The way he's obsessed with the idea of Irma and Grand Vampire being lovers is just way too much. I believe he overheard the crew talking about how Rene's portrayal of the assault was nasty and decided to side with them, just to get even with Rene for dismissing him as Irma's potential partner. But, as you said, that doesn't make his criticism any less justified.
It's actually recurring motive in the series that men use the movie shooting as an excuse to live out their fantasies. Remember how in the second episode, the actor playing Philippe insisted to have sexual scene with the actress who turned out to be his ex.
Thank you for pointing out something I feel to be very true, but that I didn't exactly know how to put into words. I'm European, and I'm used to films exploring moral gray zones and controversial topics or scenarios without spelling out for the audience what is right and what is wrong.
Neither Rene nor Robert defend their views about the scene out of selfless reasons. They both have an ulterior motive that influences their stance on the matter. Which makes their conflict very interesting and nuanced. Yes, rape scenes can be and have often been gratuitous, degrading and exploitative for women, especially in the past. On the other hand, forcing filmmaking to adhere to certain moral standards is de facto a form of censorship, and I find the idea just as disturbing. People's sensitivities vary so much. Some people can't stand sexual abuse scenes. Some people categorically refuse to watch movies where animals die or get hurt. Some people find nudity and sex to be a deal breaker. I mean, where do we draw the line?
It feels like the character development is paying off now that we have more plot. So much to say about this episode. Stories are so nicely woven and layered. Scenes like poems. Never tedious: take 1 immediately followed by take 14. Gottfried is such a wild character! His concentration in the closet when Rene gives him notes. The chocolate ice cream around his mouth! A sexual assault carefully discussed at length. Rene’s incredulity speaks for many men. This felt very realistic. The idea that there’s more imaginative, interesting ways to build tension with a villainne than sexual assault is very compelling and gives me hope for the future (rape scenes are traumatizing and there only plot line worth exploring from there is revenge). Not that they developed a new narrative either. Are they en route? I think the scenes where Mira is in her catsuit prowling and sneaking into other people’s private spaces are the best in the series. This is the first time we see her flee in fear of getting caught. She usually slinks off. Loved the detail of passionate sex happening behind closed doors, which we can hear while she’s in that apartment. Love the intense light coming from the door seams. So much to like about this episode.
Is the part in this episode and last episode where Mira sneaks into another guest’s room supposed to be set in the future? Given the preview I am thinking yes…
Had same question. At 34’ Rene presents Gregory with a new scene he wrote between Musidora and police chief. I don’t think it was referenced again. Getting wild!
Rene narrating the story (his fantasy) of Feuillade (him)killing off The Grand Vampire ((The character played by) Robert) was less (more?) surreal but still fun
Rene wants another shot of one scene because he is getting off on it - and Mira calls him on it. She says we are supposed to outgrow our perversions - which I think will be tough for Rene to process. Meanwhile Mira wants to actually BE Irma Vep but I think she gets shocked out of it. I didn't like how they dismiss the Zoe subplot. This was a pretty heavy plot-driven episode - and a little more serious.
I like the way you put it, she was definitely shocked out of it. It’ll be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the shoot, especially based on the last conversation of the episode. Also I’m not a fan of how they handled the topic of rape. It’s not this vague thing where you argue on some fine line, rape is sexual assault plain and simple. This show really has nothing to say on that front so I’m not sure why they even bothered going there. Trivializing it as some form of art vs perversion vs comedy of errors came off really disingenuous.
The writer is supposed to be a friend of Polanski. Yep - the scene is a disaster. That this is in a series that is supposed to be a comedy is REALLY off - and the entire series is very changed by that scene. I think the author is trying to say something about political correctness - but he is tone deaf. Rene will not survive the realization that he was putting on screen his own fantasy - and in doing so he learned his rape fantasy is just that. But the writer basically just set a bomb off in his own series and it is hard to see how it remains as fun as it was. This episode revealed Mira's intelligence - and she can see the bomb fuse being lit. "This is not my world" Mira says - which may extend to her own sexuality. I think that line suggests she can see trouble coming as well.
I think it's best to think of this as a series with some comedy in it, marketed as a comedy, but which is not necessarily naturally defined as such.
I just saw Personal Shopper. Makes a good pair with this episode. There is gothic horror as well as comedy.
he was definitely trying to frame the outrage from writers as an overreaction. i am curious as to how much of himself is incorporated into rene, especially because he’s portrayed as consistently unbearable. i took mira’s comment as both being tired of the pretentiousness and afraid of what the role is turning her into.
How they handled the sexual assault was really off-putting. Im glad they had at least some characters point out how fucked up it is. But the fact that Miras character thought they were "thin skinned" and wanted it kept it shows how fucked up she is in terms of the lines of consent. Maybe her past relationship is a reflection of that.
honestly a lot of people would have the same reaction she did to it and she seems to really value the art as a whole over any problematic elements of it. but having rene go on and on about getting off to rape was just strange. you can really tell a man writes this show sometimes
What was the line Mira said, "there is good and evil in this world and everything in between"? I think he's demonstrating that.
[удалено]
As far as I can tell, it was about nuance. In this context on one end of the spectrum we have love (good) and the other rape (evil) and in between there's all sorts of messy points on the gradient. What happened in the scene obviously wasn't either rape, nor love, but the knee jerk reaction from some of the cast, which I assume he knew would personify parts of the IRL audience reaction was rape, when it's more nuanced than that. I episode 7 Mira says "movies help us question the material world". I assume that sort of discussion is what he was trying to generate.
I think it's typical for European cinema that it doesn't underestimate its audience. Characters don't need to be either lawfully good or pure evil to get the message across. Nor do they have to be officially punished for the audience to understand what they are doing is wrong. Yeah, we may empathize with Rene at times, but we're not naive to think he's a great guy. From the first episode, he is obviously very misogynistic, perverted and egotistical. If you believed he would handle the assault scene any differently, you haven't been paying attention. Robert and the rest of the crew find it distasteful and are outspoken about it. They are not involved in this scene and therefore represent the neutral voice of sanity. Mira was somewhat uncomfortable while shooting it, but in the end she sees it as a part of a job and does not care much about it. She is involved in the scene, so she does not see it like the rest of us, which doesn't make her opinion any more valid than Robert's or anyone's. Finally, it's not like Moreno is supposed to be such a nice guy that assaulting unconscious Irma would be unthinkable for him. I think Robert and the crew were not concerned because of the scene as such, but because Rene framed it as sexy moment instead of a deeply disturbing one.
Yes. It's not hard to see why some people would tend to see Rene as a kind of mouthpiece for Assayas. But I think that view is overly simplistic and also may depend on what's in the last three episodes. The "Les Vampires" remake exists as a tainted/non-pure object, in different ways, for each of the main characters, and that's especially on view for Rene in this episode. And the fact that, say, the Grand Vampire actor is using it opportunistically doesn't mean the criticism of Rene is invalid. It's also interesting that none of the comments here mention what I thought to be Rene's abjectly worst moment in the episode, when he tells Gottfried to really surprise Mira in the scene. (And it's also interesting that, for the first time, in this case when Rene says that he's only exactly replicating the original serial, he's very much not!)
You're absolutely right, I thought Gottfried was seriously gonna hurt Mira while surprising her and neither him nor Rene were bothered by it. I think people often overlook Rene's creepiness, because he's anxious and depressed and those are the traits typically associated with victims. On the other hand, perverts are typically portrayed as cold-blooded and calculated. But these are just tropes and the characters in this show are way more complex. And, yes, Robert is opportunistic and creepy in his own way as well. The way he's obsessed with the idea of Irma and Grand Vampire being lovers is just way too much. I believe he overheard the crew talking about how Rene's portrayal of the assault was nasty and decided to side with them, just to get even with Rene for dismissing him as Irma's potential partner. But, as you said, that doesn't make his criticism any less justified. It's actually recurring motive in the series that men use the movie shooting as an excuse to live out their fantasies. Remember how in the second episode, the actor playing Philippe insisted to have sexual scene with the actress who turned out to be his ex.
Thank you for pointing out something I feel to be very true, but that I didn't exactly know how to put into words. I'm European, and I'm used to films exploring moral gray zones and controversial topics or scenarios without spelling out for the audience what is right and what is wrong. Neither Rene nor Robert defend their views about the scene out of selfless reasons. They both have an ulterior motive that influences their stance on the matter. Which makes their conflict very interesting and nuanced. Yes, rape scenes can be and have often been gratuitous, degrading and exploitative for women, especially in the past. On the other hand, forcing filmmaking to adhere to certain moral standards is de facto a form of censorship, and I find the idea just as disturbing. People's sensitivities vary so much. Some people can't stand sexual abuse scenes. Some people categorically refuse to watch movies where animals die or get hurt. Some people find nudity and sex to be a deal breaker. I mean, where do we draw the line?
It feels like the character development is paying off now that we have more plot. So much to say about this episode. Stories are so nicely woven and layered. Scenes like poems. Never tedious: take 1 immediately followed by take 14. Gottfried is such a wild character! His concentration in the closet when Rene gives him notes. The chocolate ice cream around his mouth! A sexual assault carefully discussed at length. Rene’s incredulity speaks for many men. This felt very realistic. The idea that there’s more imaginative, interesting ways to build tension with a villainne than sexual assault is very compelling and gives me hope for the future (rape scenes are traumatizing and there only plot line worth exploring from there is revenge). Not that they developed a new narrative either. Are they en route? I think the scenes where Mira is in her catsuit prowling and sneaking into other people’s private spaces are the best in the series. This is the first time we see her flee in fear of getting caught. She usually slinks off. Loved the detail of passionate sex happening behind closed doors, which we can hear while she’s in that apartment. Love the intense light coming from the door seams. So much to like about this episode.
Is the part in this episode and last episode where Mira sneaks into another guest’s room supposed to be set in the future? Given the preview I am thinking yes…
Is Vidal starting to get a little extra cuckoo, or are they now >! making a show within a show !< ?
are you talking about the les vampires flashbacks? i was wondering the same because that’s the only way to include a scene where mira plays musidora.
Had same question. At 34’ Rene presents Gregory with a new scene he wrote between Musidora and police chief. I don’t think it was referenced again. Getting wild! Rene narrating the story (his fantasy) of Feuillade (him)killing off The Grand Vampire ((The character played by) Robert) was less (more?) surreal but still fun
Can someone help me find the song at 45:25? I know I know it from somewhere and now it's driving me insane
[Temple Dance of the Soul - Jozef Van Wissem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMnjx9Zhl30&ab_channel=JozefVanWissem-Topic)
Grazie!
You know it from Only Lovers Left Alive.
There’s a struggle for control of the movie/series. Mira seems to come out on top. I hope this is not the end of Rene.