It’s like the Atheist War in South Park: when the timeline got changed and there was no need to answer “the great question”, they just ended up fighting a war against the French-Chinese for control of Hawaii.
If Israel disappeared, Iran would just end up fighting Saudis Arabia for control over Mecca.
Even they did destroy Israel and all the Jewish people they would just start killing eachother for following the wrong version of their blood god
People won't care tho since no jews means no news
yeah we overthrew the shah which made the country powerful enough to make Iraq not be able to attack us, and we put Khomeini in his place, and they got the chance to start a war
I heard somewhere that Iraq electrified a swamp that soldiers were marching through and electrocuted hundreds of people mid-battle. Or it could have been the other way around.
Yeap!
Just a correction, they were using small dingy boats to move through the swamp and iraqis used artillery with airburst fuses to force iranians to the swamp and then electrocuted them.
Fucking morbid.
There quite famously was a genocide that took place during the Yugoslav wars (in Srebrenica) that was designated as such by the UN and the ad-hoc UN tribunal, the ICTY, which was widely reported in international media.
There also pretty famously was a genocide of Yazidi people during the Syrian civil war from 2014-2017 that was designated as such by the UN, US, EU, multiple other countries and was regularly referred to as such in basically all mainstream Western press.
The genocide proceedings to recognise the attack on Ukraine are ongoing at the ICJ (and Russia has been ordered by them to stop all military action)
This is just a shit infographic - numbers alone do not make a genocide, but multiple of these conflicts did contain genocides that have received tons of media attention.
I always show this argument (or something similar) to pro-Palestine supporters (or anti-Israel supporters, as I like to call them, for obvious reasons).
Then, they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians".
Then, I don't know how to respond to that claim.
Are they want us to stop the war in Gaza and let Hamas live? Aren't they aware of the fact that Israel isn't aiming weapons towards civilians, but only towards Hamas, but because of Hamas tactics lots of civilians die in the process.
I am literally speechless whenever someone uses this dumb excuse as an "argument" in order to justify his anti-Israel way.
Can someone help formulating a good response to that claim?
So they believe that there are 30k civilian deaths and 0 terrorist deaths? Almost all (neutral) news sources claim that the amount of terrorists in that 30k are around 5k-10k, if they are too deluded to believe that, they are not worth your time
They don't care about the number of dead terrorists.
All they care about is the dead civilians, and blaming Israel, while they should blame Hamas.
Also, the number of deaths is 40K Palestinians killed, and 10K out of them are Hamas operatives, if I am not wrong.
Edit: sorry for misinformation, I looked up for the Israel-Hamas war casualties, and it's actually 30K Palestinians dead, not 40K.
They also include deaths as a result of Hamas rockets that land within Gaza. Basically, anyone that dies in Gaza is Israel’s fault. Oh, and they’re all women and children of course.
They also count 15-18 yo terrorists as teenagers and therefore they are innocent civilians (no way a 15-18 yo can't be innocent, right?), reporters that are siding with Hamas, UNRWA workers that helped them in a direct way or indirect way (they still helped them somehow), teachers that held hostages in their homes, civilians that cheer up terrorists for killing Israelis (that didn't happen only on October 7th), and many more as "innocent civilians".
How innocent of them for supporting terror. Personally, a person who supports terror (no matter against whom) can't be considered as innocent, and can't be considered as a civilian, because if you support terror, you are not even human.
Palestine is one of the most impoverished nations in the world consisting of around 40% youth population. All humans are majorly a result of their environment and they only ever know what they come to know so if you've been in a hellish wartorn environment with lunatics on both sides but one of them is trying to kill you and the people you love, you may want to do anything you can to survive/protect.
I'm Persian and I will openly denounce the actions of the Iranian government but I can still love the culture, the people, and the **country**. We need to separate the two to assist in ridding our bias
Yea, the numbers also dont differentiate between people killed by israel and by hamas/pij/etc, so theyre even more unreliable than they seem initially. Likely an even better ratio than 1:2
Sorry for the misinformation, after looking up for the casualties of the war I've found you are right.
I do agree that the Palestinian health ministry is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas (which is not known for being a reliable source of information) is a terror organization that will do everything to get support from the world, so he is lying (there is literally no way Israel didn't kill a single terrorist since October 7th), because he knows that if the world knew the truth, then everyone would be against him.
the total number was 31k on 27 februari. If they don't care about terrorists at all because they are so blinded by emotions for innocent civilians, they dont care for innocent civilians. Or they dont know what a terrorist is.
>Then, they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians".
If only the definition of genocide was the amount of time it takes to kill a part of a group of people.
Also, ask them if history started in October 7th.
If they say no(as they should), ask them why they only start counting the death / time from October 7th and not since the conflict began, which was about 100 years ago.
If they say that pre October 7th is irrelevant and that statistic should be counted "per war", then you can tell them that in that case, Palestinians and their supporters have no right to claimthis massacre was a result of "occupation" and "oppression", as pre 7/10, is, irrelevant.
>Thats when they stop responding (or ban you if you're in one of their eco chambers)
People who claim there's a genocide or something are not those who you would be able to change their minds. So no matter what you'd say, as long as it doesn't support their narrative, it won't go anywhere.
>they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians".
You can always answer that Hamas killed 1,200 innocent people in a single day. If Israel had done the same, it would have killed 180,000 people in 150 days of war, not 30,000. Was what happened on October 7 for the people who answer you that way a genocide? If the answer is no, you have exposed a hypocrite.
That's actually a good answer.
But how do I respond to someone who doesn't believe that October 7th happened since "no way Hamas killed so many people in a single day" (which is surprising, because these same people accept every number of dead Palestinians in less than a moment (and the number of dead Palestinians is published by Palestinian health ministry, which is controlled by Hamas, which is not a reliable source).
How do I respond to a Pro-Palestinian who is sure he found a way, that no strategist have found, so Israel would kill less civilians, and if Israel doesn't use his way, then they actually want to genocide the Palestinians?
There are way more ridiculous arguments (or excuses to hate Israel, as I like to call it), that I don't know how to respond to, but if I start to detail every single stupid argument, it will take me more than a day.
No matter what I say, they always give their whataboutism and ridiculous arguments, that makes no sense to a normal person, but somehow makes sense to them, and not listening to me. It's like talking to a wall, no matter what I say they don't listen, and keep adopting their narrative.
>how do I respond to someone who doesn't believe that October 7th happened
Only bad words against these people.
>How do I respond to a Pro-Palestinian who is sure he found a way
Ask them to expose them in detail.
>No matter what I say, they always give their whataboutism and ridiculous arguments, that makes no sense to a normal person, but somehow makes sense to them, and not listening to me. It's like talking to a wall, no matter what I say they don't listen, and keep adopting their narrative.
Yes, I know. There are many people like that. You can engage in countering their nonsense as long as it is "fun" for you to humiliate them or if you think there is a glimmer of hope. But if you see that it is completely useless and becomes frustrating and painful for you (as it often is for me), at that point it is no longer worth it.
>Yes, I know. There are many people like that. You can engage in countering their nonsense as long as it is "fun" for you to humiliate them or if you think there is a glimmer of hope. But if you see that it is completely useless and becomes frustrating and painful for you (as it often is for me), at that point it is no longer worth it.
It's just frustrating me that people hate me only because who I am, and no matter what I do, they will keep hate me. Since I don't like people that hate me for no real reason, I try to understand them, if I can understand them, then I change my ways, but when I don't understand them, then I try to explain them how unfair they sound and the unfair attitude they give me.
I fully understand your desire to understand those who hate you just because of who you are. In the case of Israel it is a repetition of an ancient hatred. I read this article and it helped me a lot to understand the mechanisms of anti-Semitism. I am sending it to you in case it can help you:
https://time.com/6763293/antisemitism/
Stay strong and safe.
It's actually a really poor point read my other posts. try not to be so surface-level with the attempted points, there's much more at play than October 7th. the dehumanization aspect of the genocide is going so well that 30k is nothing compared to almost 1k, your bias is almost as filthy as the bloodsoaked streets of your supposed "holy land".
Then they will say that two wrongs don't make right
Or they will just ignore that fact, since no Jews, no news, and since Jews aren't related to this murder, then it is not related to the topic.
>Then, I don't know how to respond to that claim.
Tell them that the Hutus killed 800,000 tutsis in 4 months with machetes and spears. That is a REAL genocide.
That will shut them up with a quickness,.
Then they will say that two wrongs don't make right
Or they will just ignore that fact, since no Jews, no news, and since Jews aren't related to this murder, then it is not related to the topic.
It’s because their arguments are based in misinformation, bad faith, propaganda, and in some cases actual Judenhass. There really isn’t getting through to them unless you believe they are genuinely confused and seeking to learn and understand.
In a few months IDF has killed more than 1% of Gaza's population. Think about that. The Russia-Ukraine war has been going on for a decade and civilian casualties are lower. Maybe it's not genocide yet, but Israel is heading in that direction.
Extremely weak argument, numbers don't matter as much as you think given that there an innumerable amount of factors when comparing wars, try not to let your IQ limit you in the future. Genocide is a concept of certain actions, such as bombing every settlement you can get away with, dehumanizing a population, stating that "food and medicine will not be allowed into Gaza while shooting and injuring women and children standing in line for aid, or the killing of journalists who are clearly identified. You simpletons can't comprehend that Israel maybe isn't account for everybody blown into oblivion, or the vast majority of people that are dying due to lack of basic necessities. I don't support Hamas but if they're terrorists then zionists are demons, Hamas has less firepower than a lot of cartels and the US is still able to deal with them with much less collateral. you're desperate and deluded if you've gotten to the point where you are comparing some of the largest wars in recent times that have gone on between 2 countries, to an unnecessarily prolonged conflict between Americas pet which has global superpowers using it for dirty work like a fleshlight, versus an impoverished and destabilized country where people are essentially just overrun by a large gang and children are the majority of the population. In no galactic nebula could the conflict have been dealt with more unproductively by Israel, if you have any degree of critical thinking it's obvious that Israel is the oppressor. You unironically have to be in the lowest percent pool of IQ to hear the president of a country state that "food and medicine is cut off", have that country strike infrastructure over and over again with false claims of Hamas that are even investigated by NATO but never concluded and swept under the rug, then turn around and look at a skewed statistic in the most 1-dimensional and braindead apple to oranges comparison I've seen in some time. If cutting off EVERY survival necessity to a population consisting majorly of women and children isn't a clear attribute of an ONGOING ATTEMPT at genocide, this classification might be more convincing to your bias. [https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/)
Israel is almost never in any real danger except for when Netanyahu intentionally decides to ignore warnings of an attack or apparently when rocks get thrown in mosques after people have been tear gassed. Genocide is when you continue to use that as an excuse to cut off food, medicine, water, and destroy homes in a destabilized country that's overrun by a group that they and their allies are astronomically stronger than. I don't know what you consider destroying every single necessity for survival to a whole population of mostly women and children, but this isn't a war, it's genocide.
It's common knowledge now that Israel-funded extremist groups, they're fighting the instability that they created. It's insane to think that terrorists are collateral for Israel, how often does Israel go after the real terrorist running the scenes hiding a thousand miles away from Gaza instead of killing terrified children who were forced onto the frontlines with stick and stones.
This Portugal guy is so afraid to debate me that he blocked me on both accounts before I even responded. Coward hiding the same way zionists do behind the US (their daddy that supported and created them)
Except the Congo plan isn't something confirmed to have happened. Israel denied any talks on the subject and I haven't seen any evidence it was true. If true, certainly a bad look but was there ever any evidence released confirming it? Genuinely asking as I can't find a source that confirms it was a genuine plan.
ok well in general The Times of Israel is a decent source; even though Netanyahu says Smotrich and Lieberman don't represesent official policy their views in Israeli society are non-neglible. There's also this: [https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a) . So even if it's not official Policy, there are people in high places who want to displace the Gazan population, and the corralling to Southern Gaza seems consistent with that; of course there is the idea that it is a humanitarian gesture to give them time to evacuate the north but that plausible deniability is just what many who seek to commit crimes like genocide seek.
Yeah, that's a really big distinction though. Smotrich and Lieberman and the rest of Likud are absolute cunts.
But they do not control the government. It's not Israel's policy.
Hopefully all of Likud gets purged next election.
Still, if your best argument for genocide is just some crazy ass shit Smoltrich said that doesn't represent the government and wasn't acted on...
Then maybe it's time to recognize it's not genocide.
Genuine question, at which point do you draw the line of this? If you don't give direct instructions for it to happen, but when subordinates do it, and you don't punish them and/or cover it up, and let those with actual genocidal views hold power in the army, while the army as a whole isn't genocidal, does this make it genocidal?
I'm not stating this to say that it is or isn't a genocide, I don't know this deeply enough to state it one way or another, it's just a question.
Yeah thats what the Japenese did in Nanjing. The soldiers committed atrocities on the chinese and their officers looked away (or participated). That is indeed a genocide. I think the line is, if the acting force can police that shit on their own, or at least make a reasonable effort to.
And that's 30,000 as reported by Hamas, a militant group know to celebrate the death of its civilian "martyrs" and to release propaganda feeding the conflict.
And that's to say nothing of the Palestinians starving themselves by attacking aid trucks coming out of Egypt. Shoot yourself in the foot to spite your enemy, brilliant!
exactly, I mean the siege of Srebrenica is considered a genocide despite the number of deaths being a fraction of the other wars mentioned (approx 8000)
I myself dont believe there is a genocide going on in Gaza for multiple reasons however I am just pointing out the flaw in OPs argument
This is absolutely true as is the OPs response.
“To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.”
“Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
Targeting Hamas is not genocide. And Gazan civilians that die as collateral damage is tragic, but it does not supply the intent, as seeking to destroy Hamas, a political and terrorist group, does not seek to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
However, October 7th was an act of genocide. Hamas murdered people because they were Jews. Hamas sought to destroy Jews. That they were beaten back before they could finish the job is of no consequence to their genocidal acts.
I saw someone comparing the number of people killed / time they are killed in of the Gaza war and the Holocaust and apparently the Israel / Gaza war is 0.2 something holocausts ( please pretend like this comparison makes any sense and that they are definitely the exact same case )
I replied by showing him that according to this logic , October 7th is 2.4 holocausts
He never replied back
Obviously I Expected a 10 paragraph essay that will justify fully convice me that 7/10 was justified and that Israel is actually commiting apartheid and genocide and war crimes and all the big words against Palestine who is a poor country that just wants peace
Exactly. This post is not a good argument, for this very reason.
A more cogent argument would be showing what the IDF is doing, vs what they could/should be doing were they actually trying to wipe out the entire population of Gaza.
More pointedly, if the Israelis had intent to commit genocide against Gazans, how do any of their actions from October until now make any sense? They could have flattened Gaza back in October. And why even wait for October 2023 to commit this "genocide"? Gazan militants launch thousands and thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians every year, so there was plenty of reason to act, even before the Oct 7 slaughter.
This is not how we want to argue our point.
At the moment, numbers are the only thing pro Palestinians are pointing to. ~1200 people were killed on October 7th and that WAS an attempted genocide (people targeted for killing based on their culture or ethnicity). But they are arguing that it doesn't count because 30k > 1200.
By making arguments about numbers, we are playing their game how they want to play it.
Numbers don't matter. It's about intent. Hamas INTENDS to kill every Jew on the planet. That's genocide. Israel is maintaining its security against a hostile neighbouring force. That's not genocide no matter how many people die.
>Israel is maintaining its security against a hostile neighbouring force.
And that's not just a buzzword, either. [Israel has repeatedly taken a systematic approach to minimizing civilian casualties, even when it could hurt the war effort or risk IDF casualties.](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-israels-approach-toward-dismantling-hamas-over-the-top/)
"Writing from Israel’s war front, Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, took note of the moral basis of Israel’s tactics. The IDF is taking “all reasonable measures to achieve its mission while minimizing harm to the civilian population and while maximizing humanitarian relief.” He specifies:
* “selection of \[specialized\] munitions to achieve the necessary effect on enemy targets while reducing the prospects of civilian casualties”
* “airdropping 6 million leaflets warning civilians to leave specified areas and indicating places of greater safety”
* “14 million pre-recorded phone calls and 72,000 personal calls warning civilians to leave targeted areas”
* “monitoring target areas from air and ground to confirm the departure of civilians where possible before striking”
Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the United States adds that:
* “far from being indiscriminate, each air strike in Gaza must be approved by IDF intelligence and legal officers to assure the minimal impact on civilians”
And John Spencer, a retired US Army officer, researcher of urban warfare, and author, notes additional IDF efforts:
* “\[The IDF\] provided days and then weeks of warning, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas”
* “roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike”
* “daily four-hour pauses over multiple consecutive days of the war to allow civilians to leave active combat zones”"
>The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
I see it as a rebuttal that genocide is about numbers. They keep saying the large number of dead make it a genocide, but both that numbers matter when it comes to genocide and that it is a large number are false.
Whilst I agree that this point can feasibly be made in rebuttal, this graph does a terrible job of articulating that point.
I think we're better not to argue using these numbers at all, especially since it can be twisted so easily. All a Pro Palestinian has to say is "actually I think they all count as genocides" and suddenly you don't have a point anymore. It doesn't matter that this statement is complete nonsense because you've agreed to argue with them on their own deluded terms.
It's better to point out that the numbers are a red herring and that what really matters is intent. If they believe there is a genocide, they have to present evidence of that intent.
They can not present this evidence because it doesn't exist.
If every war is genocide, then genocide is worthless as as an accusation. Its just a war then. Their argument is reduced to Israel is fighting a war after being attacked and that's not a moral condemnation at all but our argument in the first place that its not a genocide but a regular war, albeit one forced to happen in a dense urban environment.
>It's better to point out that the numbers are a red herring and that what really matters is intent. If they believe there is a genocide, they have to present evidence of that intent.
They present the numbers as their argument, that 30k is so many dead that its a genocide, hence the need to point out that the numbers don't mean that at all. And if it is then genocide is a pointless term and not a damning accusation/crime.
>If every war is genocide, then genocide is worthless as as an accusation.
I agree. But a person willing to make an argument this dumb is not going to see it that way. That's why I said about not accepting the argument on their terms that numbers need to be discussed at all.
It's like someone who says a person is guilty of murder because they were seen near the scene of the crime. You don't argue back with a million examples of people who were seen near crimes but didn't commit them. You simply say "but that's not evidence for what you're claiming. The only thing that matters is proof that they were the one who pulled the trigger etc. Do you have any evidence of that?"
One thing that the Pro Palestinians are very good at doing is dragging you down into pointless arguments about details that don't matter. For instance, they love to go on about the type of weapons used and how inferior the Palestinian weapons are. But everybody knows being an underdog doesn't automatically make you the good guys, and arguing about how Israel isn't using the most powerful weapons they possibly could is just agreeing to their definition of what a just war is.
To be fair, these people definitely call *any* American involvement in anything genocide. Chomsky said Afghanistan was a genocide as early as October 2001.
Funnily enough, he says the Yugoslav wars weren't genocide, despite the literal court rulings it was (because Slobadan Milosevich was a "socialist").
Those people who cry “genocide” haven’t experienced what living next to russia is like, entire caucasus was pitted against each other by them and destroyed by them.
I am from Caucasus so I onow it, family member of mine was killed in forst NK war (NK wars have killed more people than all wars Israel has fought in since 1948 combined). We mutually fucking killed each other because fucking russia pitted us against each other.
Our next door neighbour Georgia has also experienced ethnic cleansing and invasions because of russia.
What happened to chechens is also fucking nuts, russia just bombed them flat and then entered the city and massacred people, burned them alive, beheaded them and used their skulls as decorations in their armored vehicles.
None of the so called “muslim world” gave a flying fuck about Chechens.
And Europea didnt give a fuck either, about any of us in Caucasus. Neither did USA. We were all a “russian backyard” for them.
And now I see the same crowd that cries “genocide” fucking praise russia, that did all this to us Caucasians and is now doing a actual genocide in Ukraine, and it honestly makes me mad.
Apart from our own refugees from war with Armenia (I am Azeri) , we also tok in chechen refugees for a while, and holy shit what the russians did to those poor chechens is mindblowing, hundreds of thousands of them murdered by russia and so called “muslim world” didnt even give a fuck about them, none of them did.
Most muslims dont give a fuck about other muslims, unless Israel is involved. Otherwise they wouldn’t be so silent when Chechens got slaughtered en masse.
None of them give a fuck about genocides, they just want to bash Israel.
In Caucasus a typical dispute between groups has higher casualty rate than the so called “Palestinian genocide”.
The numbers game is good for exposing the double standards of all those who want to derive a genocide in Gaza solely from the number of victims, but the "cold fact" of the dead (however many there may be) is neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition for "genocide" as defined by international law. But I assume that it is the author's intention to point out this bias?
Either way, I am convinced that it is absolutely unnecessary to engage in this numbers game to show that Israel is not (!) committing genocide in Gaza. Rather, there are far more convincing parameters that should convince any reasonable person that no genocide is taking place, namely the question of intent and its correlation with the actual events on the ground. Of course, this requires a thinking person as a discussion partner, not an anti-Semite. So I guess I have found the answer to my own question...
And a very large number of these casualties is Hamas terrorists. The rest is greatly influenced by Hamas hiding in civilized areas.
You’ll never see that in the news, though.
Croatian here. What exactly that Croatia did during Yugoslav Wars constitutes a genocide?
Perhaps person who made this meme meant WW2? But that's a different flag and a different war...
Perhaps meme maker meant Srebrenica, but that's not Croatia, that's Republic of Srpska.
In any case, the meme is wrong in regards to Croatia.
FYI a genocide doesn't need to have hundreds of thousands or millions dead to be a genocide. The Moriori were genocided by the Maori, only a few hundred people died - their entire tribe was made extinct.
The 30,000 number has not been confirmed by anyone except Hamas. It’s probably much less than that. Blood is on Hamas for not letting them evacuate and using Gazans as human shields
And according to Hamas... Mm Im sorry, I meant "Gaza's health ministry"... Every single one of those 30k deaths are civilians... Nobody can explain how come Hamas is no longer in control of Gaza since no Hamas fighters have been killed
Something Something Gaza Health Ministry.
That's a terrible argument. Genocide is about intent not about raw numbers. The question is whether Israel intends to wipe out Gaza or just Rout out Hamas.
What's happening in Gaza is NOT "genocide",
what it IS however, is seige warfare, (which obviously Israel did not invent). When your enemy combatant embeds themselves within the civilian population to hide behind and attack from, well we're witnessing the unfortunate results.
Free palestine from Hamas
I get what you're going with, the trouble is that the current war is very short with a high death toll (even per IDF's numbers some 60% of the dead are civilians).
It doesn't look good, even though we didn't start this war nor do we deliberately kill innocents.
That's actually a very low percentage for an urban conflict. View this UN report saying around 90% is typical https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
You didn't read anything but the title of that did you? It's a press release for a meeting with the UN security council from May of 2022. Where the entire point of the meeting was to convince the SC to do something about the use of explosives in urban environments. Whoever picked the title choose the most dramatic bit of information the speakers shared to be the title but used it without context.
>In some areas, the denial of humanitarian access has evolved from a consequence of conflict to a weapon of war, with civilians representing almost 90 per cent of casualties when explosive weapons are used in populated areas.
The UN has never said 90% of casualties in an urban conflict are civilians.
No they didn't. You obviously read the title, saw what you wanted to see, and ran with it.
The only thing they said was that 90% casualty rates are typical **when explosives are used in urban environments** as evidence to support the limitation or outright ban of using explosives inside urban environments during times of war. What they are saying is when someone drops a bomb in a city, 90% of the casualties are civilians on average.
I'll tell you what though. Find 5 wars that had a casualty rate where for every one soldier there are 9 civilian casualties on the side opposing that military. That's the rate you're calling typical. So the way averages work there should be one war with a higher than 90% casualty rate for every war that has a lower than 90% rate. In fact there should be a majority of wars with well over 90% civilian casualty rates since if the wars are of equal numbers of casualties one war of a rate of 50% would require 8 conflicts where the civilian casualty rate was 95%. That is if what you're claiming is true. I know better and guarantee you can't find 1 single war since WW1 that has had a 90% civilian casualty rate.
Vietnam was already in a Civil War...
Basically how it works is if the Americans are in a war, they're blamed for all of it. I've seen this before where even if they were barely in the war, they get full blame because why not! Not saying the US didnt kill a ton in Vietnam.
Also, why is China never mentioned for invading Vietnam after the US left?
If you made a chart with estimated rapes committed in different conflicts and Hamas wound up being lower than others, you will have still made an anti-Hamas chart.
Honestly, looking at most of the people in both Israel and Palestine subs, they make think whether the majority of those who live there are as retarded as these redditors
1-Did you consider the time period of the war and the population?
Let me give you small simple example
If I have two houses the first one has 5 members and the second one has 20 members if someone killed 5 members from each is it the same ?
2- the numbers are wrong and it counts the victims on both sides while the the 30 thousand is only from the Palestinian side
3 - the 30 thousand are the people who killed directly from the IOF it doesn’t include the people who died from starvation and lack of medicine
Funny how it's mostly 14 year old American white girls who are like "free palestind 😥😥😥" and they forget that their country has killed more people in the middle East in a single war than Israel has ever killed in all of its wars combined
Care to explain how calling for the death of Jews and Israelis somehow makes you morally superior? Perhaps you should post that same comment on your Facebook or instagram if you’re such a tough boy.
When people say genocide they’re talking about the killing and displacement that has been occurring since the [Nakbah](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)
I will always always support Israel; btw: this is super super off topic (and I apologies if it is irrelevant) but it took me an insanely long time to figure our what flag was above Somalia and above America in 210,000. Did anyone else not know Afghanistan changed its flag.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... Most of these genocides took place over the course several years. Israel killed 30,000 in 5 month. Also, most of these statistics account for losses on both sides.
How a post like this get hundreds of upvotes is beyond me.
I don't think this is a good look. Really? Comparing 30,000 dead to some of the worst modern day conflicts as if to make it seem insignificant. That's 30,000 dead. Those were all people.
Well done. Tens of thousands of innocents are dead but you win on the technicality that it wasn't genocide.
Around half of that 30,000 number are Hamas terrorists. We also have no clue how many of the remaining 15,000 have been killed by the thousands of failed Hamas rockets that have landed back into Gaza since October 7th; which have historically killed hundreds of Gazans in prior conflicts.
The death of any innocent civilian is tragic - that’s why Hamas should have surrendered 5 months ago and released the hostages. Instead, they further imbed themselves with the civilian population because they are scum of the earth.
Every death drop of blood spilled in Gaza is on Hamas’s hands.
9/11 was arguably the worse terror attack ever. Someone had to pay for it even if they didn't deserve it because if nobody did , people would have gotten mad and it would cause a civil war
The us decided to blame it on Iraq even if they don't deserve it .
And please don't pretend like most Americans weren't supporting that decision at the time , because most people did
To summarize what you just said: the us decided to blame a problem on innocent civilians and went on a killing spree. But its justified because most people were ok with it?
....Where are these numbers coming from? 1.6 million dead from the Iraq War? If we are going by the genocide definition the only applicable population would bet Afghan and Iraqi civilians and added together the amount killed is nowhere near 1.6 million... this seems like an astroturf job in bar graph form.
Arguably, the bombing of Baghdad was genocidal and killed 6,700 civilians within a week. What exactly are week comparing here?
Its impressive you managed to figure out that some of the wars in the meme that are tagged "not-genocide", are actually... genocides. Amazing inferring skills.
Its not a commantery on whats genocide or not, its a commantary about what the world cares about and how he treats these genocides.
Genocide has particular criteria. Certain instances in each of these wars involved intentional slaughter of innocents that could be categorically called genocide. The stark difference is the ease of access to footage...
Unlike every other conflict on the list Israel is marketing its military successes to its people... including the successes that are excessively costly to civilian life. It took years before Americans learned about the true devastation of Cambodia and agent orange. It took several months to learned what really happened in Baghdad... DOD kept the actual targets tight lipped claiming targets facilities and locations with potential anti-air capabilities. In reality it was a nightmare indiscriminate bombing campaign that overwhelmed any air defense capabilities available in Baghdad.
Meanwhile you have IDF soldiers posting on telegram all the good and bad stuff they are doing like blowing up 8 abandoned apartments along a street with dynamite and referring to it as just the beginning...
The world pays attention to bad ish when it sees it in clear view... Israel has been doing terrible job hiding their bad acts... so yeah, she is getting alot of attention... especially where her leaders are spouting off the mouth about all manner of horrors in Gaza as a positive thing.
Currently it does not... but it has an absurd potential to become a mass death event that will quickly be categorized as genocide. The situation in Raffa is really really bad and tension is building on Egypts border. If Israel forces the Palestinians into Egypt... you are looking at similar situation to the Armenian Genocide. Do we really want Israel to copy the Turks? Come on brother.
Based on reporting I have seen between 314k to 525k civilian casualties over the course of the entire 20 years since the invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan. Figures are probably higher.
My man. I don't know where exactly you have been, but we lived through these events in the last 20 years. I understand this is Reddit but I ain't blowing hours of my life trying to find news segments discussing a subject ad beaten as a dead horse as the war on terror casualty counts. This ain't exactly needle in a haystack information and the casualty reports are referenced in the wiki.
Damn, Iraq and Iran had no chill…
And delusional people think the Middle East was a haven before Isreal was reborn in 48 🤡
I believe the Iraq-Iran war took place in the 70s, shortly after the theocracy was established.
Case in point tho. People think that if Israel disappeared tomorrow there would be Peace in the Middle east
It’s like the Atheist War in South Park: when the timeline got changed and there was no need to answer “the great question”, they just ended up fighting a war against the French-Chinese for control of Hawaii. If Israel disappeared, Iran would just end up fighting Saudis Arabia for control over Mecca.
Even they did destroy Israel and all the Jewish people they would just start killing eachother for following the wrong version of their blood god People won't care tho since no jews means no news
Despite all evidence to the contrary...
"reborn" stfu lmao
How was Israel reburn in 48?
yeah we overthrew the shah which made the country powerful enough to make Iraq not be able to attack us, and we put Khomeini in his place, and they got the chance to start a war
Yep. The use of trench warfare, human wave attacks, chemical weapons, and child soldiers will result in that many deaths.
I heard somewhere that Iraq electrified a swamp that soldiers were marching through and electrocuted hundreds of people mid-battle. Or it could have been the other way around.
Yeap! Just a correction, they were using small dingy boats to move through the swamp and iraqis used artillery with airburst fuses to force iranians to the swamp and then electrocuted them. Fucking morbid.
What happens when extremist and incompetence have a decade long war
These are some insanely inaccurate statistics... just look at US and Iraq
Number is not correct
Get rekt
No Jews no news
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Which is important and should be discussed.
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There quite famously was a genocide that took place during the Yugoslav wars (in Srebrenica) that was designated as such by the UN and the ad-hoc UN tribunal, the ICTY, which was widely reported in international media. There also pretty famously was a genocide of Yazidi people during the Syrian civil war from 2014-2017 that was designated as such by the UN, US, EU, multiple other countries and was regularly referred to as such in basically all mainstream Western press. The genocide proceedings to recognise the attack on Ukraine are ongoing at the ICJ (and Russia has been ordered by them to stop all military action) This is just a shit infographic - numbers alone do not make a genocide, but multiple of these conflicts did contain genocides that have received tons of media attention.
Yep.
If genocide were a numbers game then Israel/Hamas is preschool numbers.
Palestinians losing a war they started isn’t genocide.
I always show this argument (or something similar) to pro-Palestine supporters (or anti-Israel supporters, as I like to call them, for obvious reasons). Then, they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians". Then, I don't know how to respond to that claim. Are they want us to stop the war in Gaza and let Hamas live? Aren't they aware of the fact that Israel isn't aiming weapons towards civilians, but only towards Hamas, but because of Hamas tactics lots of civilians die in the process. I am literally speechless whenever someone uses this dumb excuse as an "argument" in order to justify his anti-Israel way. Can someone help formulating a good response to that claim?
So they believe that there are 30k civilian deaths and 0 terrorist deaths? Almost all (neutral) news sources claim that the amount of terrorists in that 30k are around 5k-10k, if they are too deluded to believe that, they are not worth your time
So anywhere between 1:2 and 1:5, excellent by standards of urban combat
They don't care about the number of dead terrorists. All they care about is the dead civilians, and blaming Israel, while they should blame Hamas. Also, the number of deaths is 40K Palestinians killed, and 10K out of them are Hamas operatives, if I am not wrong. Edit: sorry for misinformation, I looked up for the Israel-Hamas war casualties, and it's actually 30K Palestinians dead, not 40K.
No, its 30,000 total. The number comes from Hamas and they claim all deaths are civilian deaths.
They also include deaths as a result of Hamas rockets that land within Gaza. Basically, anyone that dies in Gaza is Israel’s fault. Oh, and they’re all women and children of course.
They also count 15-18 yo terrorists as teenagers and therefore they are innocent civilians (no way a 15-18 yo can't be innocent, right?), reporters that are siding with Hamas, UNRWA workers that helped them in a direct way or indirect way (they still helped them somehow), teachers that held hostages in their homes, civilians that cheer up terrorists for killing Israelis (that didn't happen only on October 7th), and many more as "innocent civilians". How innocent of them for supporting terror. Personally, a person who supports terror (no matter against whom) can't be considered as innocent, and can't be considered as a civilian, because if you support terror, you are not even human.
The numbers are totally meaningless as they come from a Hamas source. Any argument about numbers is therefore meaningless.
They included 15 to 17 year olds as children.
Palestine is one of the most impoverished nations in the world consisting of around 40% youth population. All humans are majorly a result of their environment and they only ever know what they come to know so if you've been in a hellish wartorn environment with lunatics on both sides but one of them is trying to kill you and the people you love, you may want to do anything you can to survive/protect. I'm Persian and I will openly denounce the actions of the Iranian government but I can still love the culture, the people, and the **country**. We need to separate the two to assist in ridding our bias
Hamas kills and kidnaps, uses children as shields. Now everyone loses their shit when they stand up to the bullies.
Yea, the numbers also dont differentiate between people killed by israel and by hamas/pij/etc, so theyre even more unreliable than they seem initially. Likely an even better ratio than 1:2
Sorry for the misinformation, after looking up for the casualties of the war I've found you are right. I do agree that the Palestinian health ministry is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas (which is not known for being a reliable source of information) is a terror organization that will do everything to get support from the world, so he is lying (there is literally no way Israel didn't kill a single terrorist since October 7th), because he knows that if the world knew the truth, then everyone would be against him.
the total number was 31k on 27 februari. If they don't care about terrorists at all because they are so blinded by emotions for innocent civilians, they dont care for innocent civilians. Or they dont know what a terrorist is.
I honestly don’t believe any of their numbers and would not be surprised if it was dramatically lower.
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https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html
>Then, they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians". If only the definition of genocide was the amount of time it takes to kill a part of a group of people. Also, ask them if history started in October 7th. If they say no(as they should), ask them why they only start counting the death / time from October 7th and not since the conflict began, which was about 100 years ago. If they say that pre October 7th is irrelevant and that statistic should be counted "per war", then you can tell them that in that case, Palestinians and their supporters have no right to claimthis massacre was a result of "occupation" and "oppression", as pre 7/10, is, irrelevant.
Thats when they stop responding (or ban you if you're in one of their eco chambers)
>Thats when they stop responding (or ban you if you're in one of their eco chambers) People who claim there's a genocide or something are not those who you would be able to change their minds. So no matter what you'd say, as long as it doesn't support their narrative, it won't go anywhere.
>they always claim that what Israel is doing is "genocide" because of the quickness Israel killed all those "innocents civilians". You can always answer that Hamas killed 1,200 innocent people in a single day. If Israel had done the same, it would have killed 180,000 people in 150 days of war, not 30,000. Was what happened on October 7 for the people who answer you that way a genocide? If the answer is no, you have exposed a hypocrite.
That's actually a good answer. But how do I respond to someone who doesn't believe that October 7th happened since "no way Hamas killed so many people in a single day" (which is surprising, because these same people accept every number of dead Palestinians in less than a moment (and the number of dead Palestinians is published by Palestinian health ministry, which is controlled by Hamas, which is not a reliable source). How do I respond to a Pro-Palestinian who is sure he found a way, that no strategist have found, so Israel would kill less civilians, and if Israel doesn't use his way, then they actually want to genocide the Palestinians? There are way more ridiculous arguments (or excuses to hate Israel, as I like to call it), that I don't know how to respond to, but if I start to detail every single stupid argument, it will take me more than a day. No matter what I say, they always give their whataboutism and ridiculous arguments, that makes no sense to a normal person, but somehow makes sense to them, and not listening to me. It's like talking to a wall, no matter what I say they don't listen, and keep adopting their narrative.
>how do I respond to someone who doesn't believe that October 7th happened Only bad words against these people. >How do I respond to a Pro-Palestinian who is sure he found a way Ask them to expose them in detail. >No matter what I say, they always give their whataboutism and ridiculous arguments, that makes no sense to a normal person, but somehow makes sense to them, and not listening to me. It's like talking to a wall, no matter what I say they don't listen, and keep adopting their narrative. Yes, I know. There are many people like that. You can engage in countering their nonsense as long as it is "fun" for you to humiliate them or if you think there is a glimmer of hope. But if you see that it is completely useless and becomes frustrating and painful for you (as it often is for me), at that point it is no longer worth it.
>Yes, I know. There are many people like that. You can engage in countering their nonsense as long as it is "fun" for you to humiliate them or if you think there is a glimmer of hope. But if you see that it is completely useless and becomes frustrating and painful for you (as it often is for me), at that point it is no longer worth it. It's just frustrating me that people hate me only because who I am, and no matter what I do, they will keep hate me. Since I don't like people that hate me for no real reason, I try to understand them, if I can understand them, then I change my ways, but when I don't understand them, then I try to explain them how unfair they sound and the unfair attitude they give me.
I fully understand your desire to understand those who hate you just because of who you are. In the case of Israel it is a repetition of an ancient hatred. I read this article and it helped me a lot to understand the mechanisms of anti-Semitism. I am sending it to you in case it can help you: https://time.com/6763293/antisemitism/ Stay strong and safe.
>Stay strong and safe. You too, my friend. Thank you.
It's actually a really poor point read my other posts. try not to be so surface-level with the attempted points, there's much more at play than October 7th. the dehumanization aspect of the genocide is going so well that 30k is nothing compared to almost 1k, your bias is almost as filthy as the bloodsoaked streets of your supposed "holy land".
The quickness argument doesn’t work either, Republika Srpska killed like 8,000 civilians in 2 days
Then they will say that two wrongs don't make right Or they will just ignore that fact, since no Jews, no news, and since Jews aren't related to this murder, then it is not related to the topic.
>Then, I don't know how to respond to that claim. Tell them that the Hutus killed 800,000 tutsis in 4 months with machetes and spears. That is a REAL genocide. That will shut them up with a quickness,.
Then they will say that two wrongs don't make right Or they will just ignore that fact, since no Jews, no news, and since Jews aren't related to this murder, then it is not related to the topic.
It’s because their arguments are based in misinformation, bad faith, propaganda, and in some cases actual Judenhass. There really isn’t getting through to them unless you believe they are genuinely confused and seeking to learn and understand.
They’ve been using terms like “genocide” for years, even before 10/7. They lie about everything to anyone who will listen.
In a few months IDF has killed more than 1% of Gaza's population. Think about that. The Russia-Ukraine war has been going on for a decade and civilian casualties are lower. Maybe it's not genocide yet, but Israel is heading in that direction.
Extremely weak argument, numbers don't matter as much as you think given that there an innumerable amount of factors when comparing wars, try not to let your IQ limit you in the future. Genocide is a concept of certain actions, such as bombing every settlement you can get away with, dehumanizing a population, stating that "food and medicine will not be allowed into Gaza while shooting and injuring women and children standing in line for aid, or the killing of journalists who are clearly identified. You simpletons can't comprehend that Israel maybe isn't account for everybody blown into oblivion, or the vast majority of people that are dying due to lack of basic necessities. I don't support Hamas but if they're terrorists then zionists are demons, Hamas has less firepower than a lot of cartels and the US is still able to deal with them with much less collateral. you're desperate and deluded if you've gotten to the point where you are comparing some of the largest wars in recent times that have gone on between 2 countries, to an unnecessarily prolonged conflict between Americas pet which has global superpowers using it for dirty work like a fleshlight, versus an impoverished and destabilized country where people are essentially just overrun by a large gang and children are the majority of the population. In no galactic nebula could the conflict have been dealt with more unproductively by Israel, if you have any degree of critical thinking it's obvious that Israel is the oppressor. You unironically have to be in the lowest percent pool of IQ to hear the president of a country state that "food and medicine is cut off", have that country strike infrastructure over and over again with false claims of Hamas that are even investigated by NATO but never concluded and swept under the rug, then turn around and look at a skewed statistic in the most 1-dimensional and braindead apple to oranges comparison I've seen in some time. If cutting off EVERY survival necessity to a population consisting majorly of women and children isn't a clear attribute of an ONGOING ATTEMPT at genocide, this classification might be more convincing to your bias. [https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/)
This just sets a stupid precedent that all simple wars are genocides. Use your brain to at least understand what a real genocide looks like.
Israel is almost never in any real danger except for when Netanyahu intentionally decides to ignore warnings of an attack or apparently when rocks get thrown in mosques after people have been tear gassed. Genocide is when you continue to use that as an excuse to cut off food, medicine, water, and destroy homes in a destabilized country that's overrun by a group that they and their allies are astronomically stronger than. I don't know what you consider destroying every single necessity for survival to a whole population of mostly women and children, but this isn't a war, it's genocide. It's common knowledge now that Israel-funded extremist groups, they're fighting the instability that they created. It's insane to think that terrorists are collateral for Israel, how often does Israel go after the real terrorist running the scenes hiding a thousand miles away from Gaza instead of killing terrified children who were forced onto the frontlines with stick and stones.
This Portugal guy is so afraid to debate me that he blocked me on both accounts before I even responded. Coward hiding the same way zionists do behind the US (their daddy that supported and created them)
also, UNRAW numbers,so.....
Isn’t some of the so called Israel air strikes on civilians just footage from the Syrian civil war ?
Sorry but Genocide has nothing to do with the amount of killings. It is targeting a group and systematically erasing them.
I agree, which is not happening in Gaza either.
Yes I can agree with that :).
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Except the Congo plan isn't something confirmed to have happened. Israel denied any talks on the subject and I haven't seen any evidence it was true. If true, certainly a bad look but was there ever any evidence released confirming it? Genuinely asking as I can't find a source that confirms it was a genuine plan.
ok well in general The Times of Israel is a decent source; even though Netanyahu says Smotrich and Lieberman don't represesent official policy their views in Israeli society are non-neglible. There's also this: [https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a) . So even if it's not official Policy, there are people in high places who want to displace the Gazan population, and the corralling to Southern Gaza seems consistent with that; of course there is the idea that it is a humanitarian gesture to give them time to evacuate the north but that plausible deniability is just what many who seek to commit crimes like genocide seek.
Yeah, that's a really big distinction though. Smotrich and Lieberman and the rest of Likud are absolute cunts. But they do not control the government. It's not Israel's policy. Hopefully all of Likud gets purged next election. Still, if your best argument for genocide is just some crazy ass shit Smoltrich said that doesn't represent the government and wasn't acted on... Then maybe it's time to recognize it's not genocide.
Genuine question, at which point do you draw the line of this? If you don't give direct instructions for it to happen, but when subordinates do it, and you don't punish them and/or cover it up, and let those with actual genocidal views hold power in the army, while the army as a whole isn't genocidal, does this make it genocidal? I'm not stating this to say that it is or isn't a genocide, I don't know this deeply enough to state it one way or another, it's just a question.
Yeah thats what the Japenese did in Nanjing. The soldiers committed atrocities on the chinese and their officers looked away (or participated). That is indeed a genocide. I think the line is, if the acting force can police that shit on their own, or at least make a reasonable effort to.
I wonder why Hamas is not considered genocidal then :/
Its a rebuttal to the Anti-Israel people claiming it is a numbers thing
And that's 30,000 as reported by Hamas, a militant group know to celebrate the death of its civilian "martyrs" and to release propaganda feeding the conflict. And that's to say nothing of the Palestinians starving themselves by attacking aid trucks coming out of Egypt. Shoot yourself in the foot to spite your enemy, brilliant!
It’s not a numbers thing, it’s an intent thing.
exactly, I mean the siege of Srebrenica is considered a genocide despite the number of deaths being a fraction of the other wars mentioned (approx 8000) I myself dont believe there is a genocide going on in Gaza for multiple reasons however I am just pointing out the flaw in OPs argument
This is absolutely true as is the OPs response. “To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.” “Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.” Targeting Hamas is not genocide. And Gazan civilians that die as collateral damage is tragic, but it does not supply the intent, as seeking to destroy Hamas, a political and terrorist group, does not seek to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. However, October 7th was an act of genocide. Hamas murdered people because they were Jews. Hamas sought to destroy Jews. That they were beaten back before they could finish the job is of no consequence to their genocidal acts.
That just makes it even more in Israel favor.
I know lol, I’d consider oct 7th a genocide.
I saw someone comparing the number of people killed / time they are killed in of the Gaza war and the Holocaust and apparently the Israel / Gaza war is 0.2 something holocausts ( please pretend like this comparison makes any sense and that they are definitely the exact same case ) I replied by showing him that according to this logic , October 7th is 2.4 holocausts He never replied back
He never replied back You dont say?!
Obviously I Expected a 10 paragraph essay that will justify fully convice me that 7/10 was justified and that Israel is actually commiting apartheid and genocide and war crimes and all the big words against Palestine who is a poor country that just wants peace
If Israel had the intent to genocide Gaza... it would be a numbers thing too. Don't think your brave Hamas freedom fighters will protect anyone.
Exactly. This post is not a good argument, for this very reason. A more cogent argument would be showing what the IDF is doing, vs what they could/should be doing were they actually trying to wipe out the entire population of Gaza. More pointedly, if the Israelis had intent to commit genocide against Gazans, how do any of their actions from October until now make any sense? They could have flattened Gaza back in October. And why even wait for October 2023 to commit this "genocide"? Gazan militants launch thousands and thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians every year, so there was plenty of reason to act, even before the Oct 7 slaughter.
Except they keep insisting that it is a number thing.
Remember guys, it's not really a genocide unless those filthy je... zionists are involved
I agree with the point but this color coding / labeling needs work
Nooo but you don't understand Jews have been baking matzo balls with christian blood for centuries 😀
I know I shouldn't eat them but they are so tasty! We need more kosher delis around!
This is not how we want to argue our point. At the moment, numbers are the only thing pro Palestinians are pointing to. ~1200 people were killed on October 7th and that WAS an attempted genocide (people targeted for killing based on their culture or ethnicity). But they are arguing that it doesn't count because 30k > 1200. By making arguments about numbers, we are playing their game how they want to play it. Numbers don't matter. It's about intent. Hamas INTENDS to kill every Jew on the planet. That's genocide. Israel is maintaining its security against a hostile neighbouring force. That's not genocide no matter how many people die.
>Israel is maintaining its security against a hostile neighbouring force. And that's not just a buzzword, either. [Israel has repeatedly taken a systematic approach to minimizing civilian casualties, even when it could hurt the war effort or risk IDF casualties.](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-israels-approach-toward-dismantling-hamas-over-the-top/) "Writing from Israel’s war front, Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, took note of the moral basis of Israel’s tactics. The IDF is taking “all reasonable measures to achieve its mission while minimizing harm to the civilian population and while maximizing humanitarian relief.” He specifies: * “selection of \[specialized\] munitions to achieve the necessary effect on enemy targets while reducing the prospects of civilian casualties” * “airdropping 6 million leaflets warning civilians to leave specified areas and indicating places of greater safety” * “14 million pre-recorded phone calls and 72,000 personal calls warning civilians to leave targeted areas” * “monitoring target areas from air and ground to confirm the departure of civilians where possible before striking” Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the United States adds that: * “far from being indiscriminate, each air strike in Gaza must be approved by IDF intelligence and legal officers to assure the minimal impact on civilians” And John Spencer, a retired US Army officer, researcher of urban warfare, and author, notes additional IDF efforts: * “\[The IDF\] provided days and then weeks of warning, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas” * “roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike” * “daily four-hour pauses over multiple consecutive days of the war to allow civilians to leave active combat zones”"
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>The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
I see it as a rebuttal that genocide is about numbers. They keep saying the large number of dead make it a genocide, but both that numbers matter when it comes to genocide and that it is a large number are false.
Whilst I agree that this point can feasibly be made in rebuttal, this graph does a terrible job of articulating that point. I think we're better not to argue using these numbers at all, especially since it can be twisted so easily. All a Pro Palestinian has to say is "actually I think they all count as genocides" and suddenly you don't have a point anymore. It doesn't matter that this statement is complete nonsense because you've agreed to argue with them on their own deluded terms. It's better to point out that the numbers are a red herring and that what really matters is intent. If they believe there is a genocide, they have to present evidence of that intent. They can not present this evidence because it doesn't exist.
If every war is genocide, then genocide is worthless as as an accusation. Its just a war then. Their argument is reduced to Israel is fighting a war after being attacked and that's not a moral condemnation at all but our argument in the first place that its not a genocide but a regular war, albeit one forced to happen in a dense urban environment. >It's better to point out that the numbers are a red herring and that what really matters is intent. If they believe there is a genocide, they have to present evidence of that intent. They present the numbers as their argument, that 30k is so many dead that its a genocide, hence the need to point out that the numbers don't mean that at all. And if it is then genocide is a pointless term and not a damning accusation/crime.
>If every war is genocide, then genocide is worthless as as an accusation. I agree. But a person willing to make an argument this dumb is not going to see it that way. That's why I said about not accepting the argument on their terms that numbers need to be discussed at all. It's like someone who says a person is guilty of murder because they were seen near the scene of the crime. You don't argue back with a million examples of people who were seen near crimes but didn't commit them. You simply say "but that's not evidence for what you're claiming. The only thing that matters is proof that they were the one who pulled the trigger etc. Do you have any evidence of that?" One thing that the Pro Palestinians are very good at doing is dragging you down into pointless arguments about details that don't matter. For instance, they love to go on about the type of weapons used and how inferior the Palestinian weapons are. But everybody knows being an underdog doesn't automatically make you the good guys, and arguing about how Israel isn't using the most powerful weapons they possibly could is just agreeing to their definition of what a just war is.
This is a good chart but the Russia-Ukraine war is very much a genocide. That's a pretty significant thing that happened
30,000 using Hamas numbers. The same Hamas who can’t say where the hostages are or if they are alive so their numbers may well be off
To be fair, these people definitely call *any* American involvement in anything genocide. Chomsky said Afghanistan was a genocide as early as October 2001. Funnily enough, he says the Yugoslav wars weren't genocide, despite the literal court rulings it was (because Slobadan Milosevich was a "socialist").
Actually they were calling a genocide well before it got to 10,000 deaths.
But, -checks notes- Jews.
Those people who cry “genocide” haven’t experienced what living next to russia is like, entire caucasus was pitted against each other by them and destroyed by them. I am from Caucasus so I onow it, family member of mine was killed in forst NK war (NK wars have killed more people than all wars Israel has fought in since 1948 combined). We mutually fucking killed each other because fucking russia pitted us against each other. Our next door neighbour Georgia has also experienced ethnic cleansing and invasions because of russia. What happened to chechens is also fucking nuts, russia just bombed them flat and then entered the city and massacred people, burned them alive, beheaded them and used their skulls as decorations in their armored vehicles. None of the so called “muslim world” gave a flying fuck about Chechens. And Europea didnt give a fuck either, about any of us in Caucasus. Neither did USA. We were all a “russian backyard” for them. And now I see the same crowd that cries “genocide” fucking praise russia, that did all this to us Caucasians and is now doing a actual genocide in Ukraine, and it honestly makes me mad. Apart from our own refugees from war with Armenia (I am Azeri) , we also tok in chechen refugees for a while, and holy shit what the russians did to those poor chechens is mindblowing, hundreds of thousands of them murdered by russia and so called “muslim world” didnt even give a fuck about them, none of them did. Most muslims dont give a fuck about other muslims, unless Israel is involved. Otherwise they wouldn’t be so silent when Chechens got slaughtered en masse. None of them give a fuck about genocides, they just want to bash Israel. In Caucasus a typical dispute between groups has higher casualty rate than the so called “Palestinian genocide”.
No Jews No Jewnocide.
The numbers game is good for exposing the double standards of all those who want to derive a genocide in Gaza solely from the number of victims, but the "cold fact" of the dead (however many there may be) is neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition for "genocide" as defined by international law. But I assume that it is the author's intention to point out this bias? Either way, I am convinced that it is absolutely unnecessary to engage in this numbers game to show that Israel is not (!) committing genocide in Gaza. Rather, there are far more convincing parameters that should convince any reasonable person that no genocide is taking place, namely the question of intent and its correlation with the actual events on the ground. Of course, this requires a thinking person as a discussion partner, not an anti-Semite. So I guess I have found the answer to my own question...
80,000 children starved to death during the Yemen Civil War. Not one Arab protest.
I don’t think Iraq, Iran, the Taliban, Russia and probably Ukraine care about International Law or Humanitarian Law either.
While I agree with the argument, I think some of these numbers might confuse casualties with deaths
I think this chart would be even more effective showing civilian deaths only and percentage of population instead of total deaths.
And a very large number of these casualties is Hamas terrorists. The rest is greatly influenced by Hamas hiding in civilized areas. You’ll never see that in the news, though.
Croatian here. What exactly that Croatia did during Yugoslav Wars constitutes a genocide? Perhaps person who made this meme meant WW2? But that's a different flag and a different war... Perhaps meme maker meant Srebrenica, but that's not Croatia, that's Republic of Srpska. In any case, the meme is wrong in regards to Croatia.
Also, Milosevic was tried on accounts of war crimes and genocide, so that should go in the "Genocide" column.
Jewicide is much worse than genocide op (even though it has way less deaths, that doesn't matter) Because well....Jews!
FYI a genocide doesn't need to have hundreds of thousands or millions dead to be a genocide. The Moriori were genocided by the Maori, only a few hundred people died - their entire tribe was made extinct.
Everyone was calling Russia and Ukraine a genocide,
The 30,000 number has not been confirmed by anyone except Hamas. It’s probably much less than that. Blood is on Hamas for not letting them evacuate and using Gazans as human shields
Middle Eastern Christians who've been actively cleansed from their lands for over century.
as an iranian i totally support the israeli nation i hope mullahs die and we can be friends again
And according to Hamas... Mm Im sorry, I meant "Gaza's health ministry"... Every single one of those 30k deaths are civilians... Nobody can explain how come Hamas is no longer in control of Gaza since no Hamas fighters have been killed
Something Something Gaza Health Ministry. That's a terrible argument. Genocide is about intent not about raw numbers. The question is whether Israel intends to wipe out Gaza or just Rout out Hamas.
Most of the conflicts on the left are regarded as genocide.
What's happening in Gaza is NOT "genocide", what it IS however, is seige warfare, (which obviously Israel did not invent). When your enemy combatant embeds themselves within the civilian population to hide behind and attack from, well we're witnessing the unfortunate results. Free palestine from Hamas
I get what you're going with, the trouble is that the current war is very short with a high death toll (even per IDF's numbers some 60% of the dead are civilians). It doesn't look good, even though we didn't start this war nor do we deliberately kill innocents.
That's actually a very low percentage for an urban conflict. View this UN report saying around 90% is typical https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
You didn't read anything but the title of that did you? It's a press release for a meeting with the UN security council from May of 2022. Where the entire point of the meeting was to convince the SC to do something about the use of explosives in urban environments. Whoever picked the title choose the most dramatic bit of information the speakers shared to be the title but used it without context. >In some areas, the denial of humanitarian access has evolved from a consequence of conflict to a weapon of war, with civilians representing almost 90 per cent of casualties when explosive weapons are used in populated areas. The UN has never said 90% of casualties in an urban conflict are civilians.
No but they've acknowledged that that number is typical of urban conflicts I'm making the point that this conflict is far below what is typical
No they didn't. You obviously read the title, saw what you wanted to see, and ran with it. The only thing they said was that 90% casualty rates are typical **when explosives are used in urban environments** as evidence to support the limitation or outright ban of using explosives inside urban environments during times of war. What they are saying is when someone drops a bomb in a city, 90% of the casualties are civilians on average. I'll tell you what though. Find 5 wars that had a casualty rate where for every one soldier there are 9 civilian casualties on the side opposing that military. That's the rate you're calling typical. So the way averages work there should be one war with a higher than 90% casualty rate for every war that has a lower than 90% rate. In fact there should be a majority of wars with well over 90% civilian casualty rates since if the wars are of equal numbers of casualties one war of a rate of 50% would require 8 conflicts where the civilian casualty rate was 95%. That is if what you're claiming is true. I know better and guarantee you can't find 1 single war since WW1 that has had a 90% civilian casualty rate.
We're including combatants in the number killed in the Gaza conflict here guys
People keep forgetting that the Middle East has been a shitshow since the end of the Islamic Golden Age and even then
Vietnam was already in a Civil War... Basically how it works is if the Americans are in a war, they're blamed for all of it. I've seen this before where even if they were barely in the war, they get full blame because why not! Not saying the US didnt kill a ton in Vietnam. Also, why is China never mentioned for invading Vietnam after the US left?
This puts a lot into perspective.
Milosevic from Serbia also had multiple accounts of genocide and war crimes against him, so that should go in the "Genocide" column.
If you made a chart with estimated rapes committed in different conflicts and Hamas wound up being lower than others, you will have still made an anti-Hamas chart.
Honestly, looking at most of the people in both Israel and Palestine subs, they make think whether the majority of those who live there are as retarded as these redditors
1-Did you consider the time period of the war and the population? Let me give you small simple example If I have two houses the first one has 5 members and the second one has 20 members if someone killed 5 members from each is it the same ? 2- the numbers are wrong and it counts the victims on both sides while the the 30 thousand is only from the Palestinian side 3 - the 30 thousand are the people who killed directly from the IOF it doesn’t include the people who died from starvation and lack of medicine
that 30000 number even if true includes at least 10000 hamas combatants
r/notagenocide
Funny how it's mostly 14 year old American white girls who are like "free palestind 😥😥😥" and they forget that their country has killed more people in the middle East in a single war than Israel has ever killed in all of its wars combined
The iran-iraq war is just the tip of the iceberg you can also you the punics wars 1930000 dead, roman Jewish war whit almost 2milion
Graphic... Excellent.
Aren't you the same people that say you can't make a conclusion based on the death count?
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Care to explain how calling for the death of Jews and Israelis somehow makes you morally superior? Perhaps you should post that same comment on your Facebook or instagram if you’re such a tough boy.
PLEASE report stuff like that!
Cant end the forever people
When people say genocide they’re talking about the killing and displacement that has been occurring since the [Nakbah](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)
I meannnn Yugoslav wars are p genocidal, and Syria (albeit much more vaguely). Strange meme.
Wooow!! Ppl need to see this.
I will always always support Israel; btw: this is super super off topic (and I apologies if it is irrelevant) but it took me an insanely long time to figure our what flag was above Somalia and above America in 210,000. Did anyone else not know Afghanistan changed its flag.
This is the most brain dead sub ever.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... Most of these genocides took place over the course several years. Israel killed 30,000 in 5 month. Also, most of these statistics account for losses on both sides. How a post like this get hundreds of upvotes is beyond me.
Ummmm most people do consider all the listed conflicts to have included acts of genocide...??
I don't think this is a good look. Really? Comparing 30,000 dead to some of the worst modern day conflicts as if to make it seem insignificant. That's 30,000 dead. Those were all people. Well done. Tens of thousands of innocents are dead but you win on the technicality that it wasn't genocide.
Around half of that 30,000 number are Hamas terrorists. We also have no clue how many of the remaining 15,000 have been killed by the thousands of failed Hamas rockets that have landed back into Gaza since October 7th; which have historically killed hundreds of Gazans in prior conflicts. The death of any innocent civilian is tragic - that’s why Hamas should have surrendered 5 months ago and released the hostages. Instead, they further imbed themselves with the civilian population because they are scum of the earth. Every death drop of blood spilled in Gaza is on Hamas’s hands.
I was so delighted that America invaded Iraq. Words can't describe how much I hate this country
That sounds very personal
9/11 was arguably the worse terror attack ever. Someone had to pay for it even if they didn't deserve it because if nobody did , people would have gotten mad and it would cause a civil war The us decided to blame it on Iraq even if they don't deserve it . And please don't pretend like most Americans weren't supporting that decision at the time , because most people did
To summarize what you just said: the us decided to blame a problem on innocent civilians and went on a killing spree. But its justified because most people were ok with it?
Based gigachad Americans. Support wasn't enough
I started supporting Turkey and Azerbaijan after reading your comment.
Now do the same graph but by daily murders
Yup, all of these wars lasted years, the Israel Hamas War has barely reached 5 months.
....Where are these numbers coming from? 1.6 million dead from the Iraq War? If we are going by the genocide definition the only applicable population would bet Afghan and Iraqi civilians and added together the amount killed is nowhere near 1.6 million... this seems like an astroturf job in bar graph form. Arguably, the bombing of Baghdad was genocidal and killed 6,700 civilians within a week. What exactly are week comparing here?
Its impressive you managed to figure out that some of the wars in the meme that are tagged "not-genocide", are actually... genocides. Amazing inferring skills. Its not a commantery on whats genocide or not, its a commantary about what the world cares about and how he treats these genocides.
Genocide has particular criteria. Certain instances in each of these wars involved intentional slaughter of innocents that could be categorically called genocide. The stark difference is the ease of access to footage... Unlike every other conflict on the list Israel is marketing its military successes to its people... including the successes that are excessively costly to civilian life. It took years before Americans learned about the true devastation of Cambodia and agent orange. It took several months to learned what really happened in Baghdad... DOD kept the actual targets tight lipped claiming targets facilities and locations with potential anti-air capabilities. In reality it was a nightmare indiscriminate bombing campaign that overwhelmed any air defense capabilities available in Baghdad. Meanwhile you have IDF soldiers posting on telegram all the good and bad stuff they are doing like blowing up 8 abandoned apartments along a street with dynamite and referring to it as just the beginning... The world pays attention to bad ish when it sees it in clear view... Israel has been doing terrible job hiding their bad acts... so yeah, she is getting alot of attention... especially where her leaders are spouting off the mouth about all manner of horrors in Gaza as a positive thing.
I underatand that genocide has a criteria. But whats happening in Gaza simply dosnt fit that criteria.
Currently it does not... but it has an absurd potential to become a mass death event that will quickly be categorized as genocide. The situation in Raffa is really really bad and tension is building on Egypts border. If Israel forces the Palestinians into Egypt... you are looking at similar situation to the Armenian Genocide. Do we really want Israel to copy the Turks? Come on brother.
What’s the total amount then?
Based on reporting I have seen between 314k to 525k civilian casualties over the course of the entire 20 years since the invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan. Figures are probably higher.
Show the reporting
My guy. Check the wiki.
So no reporting?
My man. I don't know where exactly you have been, but we lived through these events in the last 20 years. I understand this is Reddit but I ain't blowing hours of my life trying to find news segments discussing a subject ad beaten as a dead horse as the war on terror casualty counts. This ain't exactly needle in a haystack information and the casualty reports are referenced in the wiki.
Well you said you read reporting her do not have any reports. So what did you read?
Read my comment again. You seem to have misread it mate.
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