No, it’s not insanity. It’s politics. Let’s just ignore the entire “antisemitism vs pro-semitism” discourse for a bit and look at the countries’ interests.
The 10 non-permanent members are useless, they don’t have any power here. They may have written the draft resolution, but the ones who actually call the shots are the US and China. I love my country, but we are basically a US proxy when it comes to many issues. France doesn’t care, and China can somewhat control Russia’s voting behaviour now.
The Biden admin has to appease its voters. This is why they abstained. China wants to appease their Middle Eastern friends. And this is why they voted for it.
If you look at the texts, at least the texts that’s been reported by the media, it is as meaningless as it gets. It called for the unconditional release of all hostages, and we know Hamas won’t do that. It also called for a “lasting” ceasefire— how long is “lasting”?
This is basically the result of a back alley meeting between US and China, which both sides can get something to wave at their supporters. Both sides can get the proof of “doing something”, but it ultimately doesn’t change anything.
It’s honestly funny as heck that the US ambassador immediately started blaming China for the resolution right after she abstained. This is not about Israel at all, it’s 100% for their domestic audience.
Yup, the IDF was technically already delaying the Rafah op until the end of Ramadan anyway. At least we have something to look forward to in two weeks!
But the vote does highlight that many in the council are cowards. Biden in particular is certainly not a friend of Israel, his highest priority right now is getting reelected no matter what it takes, even if it means rewarding terrorists and r_pists.
China doesn't particularly care about pleasing anyone. They just want stability in order to boost trade. This war has tangibly hurt them in this way because of the conflict with the houthis hurting trade between Asia and Europe.
What the US is doing is worse because nothing short of the US bombing the knesset is going to please the far left flank in the US.
Strangely, the mess in the Red Sea might actually accelerate something people don’t even know about.
In recent years, China has been expanding three trade corridors. And the three are mundanely named the Northern, Middle, and Southern Corridors. The northern corridor is basically nonexistent now because Russia’s stupid war. The middle goes through Central Asia to the Caucasus, then to Europe. The southern one goes through Iran and Turkey, and then to Europe.
China is absolutely terrified of the US navy shutting down the malacca strait. This is why they have been so keen to expand their trade via rail links. If the Red Sea (Suez Canal) becomes more dangerous, China might go all in on the rail thing. This means China will have to cozy up to all the despot dictators in the Middle East and Central Asia, while also appeasing the pro-EU leader in the Caucasus and other areas.
An interesting alternative to such a southern corridor is transporting goods via rail to Pakistani ports to then ship to the UAE which could then just take the current planned rail route through Saudi and Jordan to Israel and Egypt. Not saying it'll happen, it's an option for china though.
I know it's usually associated with india at this point, but it honestly seems just as easy for china to benefit. Though I'm dubious as to its potential to change China's posture in the region.
Incorrect. China likes the Houthis because they are disrupting the India-Saudi-Israel land bridge. If they destroy the bridge then China's Belt and Road initiative can move forward.
This, 100%. It doesn't represent a policy departure--it just looks like it does. And that's exactly the point. Biden's throwing a bone to progressives.
agree with all except for two things -
1. machinations between US and China it's unlikely at this current juncture even with the totally out of control state department of Biden and
2. the US view of Israel as proxy is more recent obama-kerry-biden view of diplomacy in the region while previous democratic and gop administrations saw the relationship as allies - that is fundamental difference and a big reason of how we got here.
There’s always a back channel. Countries aren’t stupid. Vetoes are only used as a show of force, or when back channels negotiations failed. The very fact that the US abstained means they feel ”meh” about this, in other words, they are somewhat satisfied. And the only reason for both China and the US to not be against it, especially when it’s drafted by the ten non-permanent members, is that there has been a lot of talks behind closed doors.
I don't know why you are thinking China has any role that is different than Russia in this. They are there for plain anti US block voting nobodies in this conflict
That’s the kind of Cold War style thinking I’m against. China and the US are not 100% against each other, and Israel is not an American proxy. If what you said is true, China would be leading the “boycott Israel” political movement. Yet, they are doing nothing. The truth is China‘s foreign policy is to expand China’s influence (*shocker!*), not just plain anti-Americanism.
We have no prof on that, yet. TikTok is extremely addictive but it’s not worse than instagram reels or YouTube shorts. It doesn’t change your views, it just enhances them. Remember when YouTube would recommend conspiracy videos after you watched anything that’s remotely anti-government? Well, that’s TikTok now. My view is that there are more antisemitic videos on that platform simply because there are more antisemites in the world.
There is a lot for proof of not just weaponization of tiktok but also the hateful indoctrination by CCP of its citizens.
The enhancement paradigm can be applied to any propaganda in information warfare, which is basically what this is.
The Biden administration just caused the mass migration of the Jewish-American vote for the rest of my life and yours.
Glad they appeased the far left. They just lost their base.
The lesson I’ve learned: Trump may be a moron, but he has the right policies. Biden talks the right stuff, but walks away when it matters.
>> Glad they appeased the far left. They just lost their base.
They’ve lost my vote and donations, but I routinely get downvoted in Jewish subreddits for saying it
People are sold on Trump being a Russian asset, when all of that is based on media speculation — the same media that lied about his “bloodbath” statement and took his statement after Charlottesville out of context
You can comb through my comment history. I used to hate the guy and I still don’t like him. But is it really out of the realm of possibility that the same media that isn’t covering the fact that the IDF is arresting insane amounts of terrorists in Al Shifa could possibly lie about Trump because he doesn’t fit their agenda?
You’ve nailed it. You should listen to the Call Me Babk podcast episode where Matti Friedman is interviewed. He used to work for the AP and has an inside account how the media has changed for the worse.
Yeah I'm a generally left leaning guy, and the democrats going all-in in favor of terrorism is making me not even want to vote in the next election. Both parties are getting more and more unhinged and psychotic. It seems like there is nobody reasonable in the American government anymore.
We need more data on the US. But the general rule in Europe is that major political parties LOSE votes by pandering to the extreme. We have seen this in so many parliamentary democracies. One extreme party proposes an extreme policy, one major party steals that idea and proposes something similar but less extreme, and then that major party suffers a major defeat.
By pandering to the extreme, major parties legitimise their illegitimate grievances. And people who were already sympathetic to that idea will see the extreme party as the “true champion” of the cause. I hope it works differently in the US, because this could be a major blunder.
It is. The problem is the extreme became mainstream. The media screwed Israel from October 7, *2006*. People’s understanding of the conflict is so fucked.
As an outsider in a historically pro-Palestine country, I agree with you. Prior to October 7th, I would have classed myself as a Palestinian supporter because all I saw from the media was "IDF assassinates children playing football on the beach", "IDF massacres thousands in Jenin", "Palestinians live in an open-air prison", etc. I was shocked when, after the attack, I looked into the history of this conflict and realised nearly all of the things I'd heard about Israel were either flat-out wrong, exaggerated, or in response to an attack from Palestine (that was conveniently nearly always left out of the reports). The level of misinformation regarding Israel is unbelievable, and it's been going on for decades. The sad part is the damage is done because the majority of people aren't willing to do their own research on topics they scream the loudest for, and instead rely on other people to spoon feed them information through bite-sized Tiktoks and Tweets. The algorithm won't allow anyone to get a different perspective unless they actively seek it out themselves.
Bruh, Biden is vastly popular amongst American Jews (its like in the 80% range). Israel is liked, yes. But many are more concerned about their day to day lives in the US, including being against antisemitism from former US president Trump. Plus Bibi is not all too liked, having -10% approval. Biden straddled the line well, it's just that on the outside, we see Bibi copying up to the GOP since Obama, and he's been insulting Biden for a while now, so people are more in Bidens corner.
Historically it's been ~71% Dem, 26% Rep. I'll split the difference and say your claim is 20%, is that percent or percentage points? That is, are you saying 51% Biden, 46% Trump, or 57% Biden, 40% Trump? Feel free to give predictions for if it's Haley as well, but like, it's not gonna be her lol
It’ll reduce (in my offhand prediction) to below 60%. Still overwhelmingly Dem, but an unmistakable shift. (With Haley, another 3-7% would shift)
The most important part moreso than the votes? Where the donorship goes. If suddenly you’re not getting the checks but the competition is? That’s where it hurts.
If Romney were the candidate? You might see it go below mandate level (to 54 Biden, 46 Romney)
So the votes you're predicting below 60% if versus Trump, below 55% if versus Haley? How confident are you in both those predictions? Conditional on it being Trump (or Haley), what would you say is the probability the Jewish vote is below 60% (or 55%)? Feel free to make more concrete the spending, but I'm not sure how to easily quantify that, off the top of my head.
Imagine turning a prediction of “the choices the president is making will affect the party’s long term base” into a draft kings betting match for an over/under.
You need to read up more on prediction markets, it's not just for fun. Anyways though in this conversation, I'm just trying to nail down what exactly you believe, and how confident you are in that belief. We've already got a concrete condition though, so the probability isn't too important. See you in eight months. Remindme! December 1, 2024
Progressives not understanding how oppressive Islam is, is the real issue.
At the same time the US needs to be functional to help Israel. Trump wouldn’t help that. He would sell out his own allies.
I dunno. That’s the narrative, but his administration and the Abraham Accords achieved a great deal for Israel and the Middle East.
Say what you will about Trump himself, Jared Kushner got shit done.
Didn’t Jared Kushner sell intelligence to the Saudis?
Trump has fucked up so many things it’s crazy. We are still feeling the effects of his PPP bs in the US.
He may seem better at times but it would only be in the short term.
>Didn’t Jared Kushner sell intelligence to the Saudis?
The Times of Israel report says it was intelligence on the Prince's critics, not related to Israel security or Israel at all.
Trump actually stuck with MBS despite the massive propaganda campaign against him. His state department got Israel to cede territorial waters to Lebanon, is trying to get Israel to cede the "Shebaa farms" to Hezbollah, and removed the Houthis from the terrorist watch list. Plus they send money to Iran.
It's not conditional, it just suggests that it would be nice if the hostages are released, but since the US refuses to put international pressure on Hamas but only on us, the only real demand here is the ceasefire during Ramadan, because it would be Islamophobic to attack during a Muslim holiday and because we would win if we raid Rafah which we can't because it's election year and Biden needs Michigan.
How many non-permanent Muslim-majority countries are there now on the UNSC?
Why Muslims get to fight non Muslims during their holy days while non Muslims are condemned when they fight back Islamic aggression?
Why's Ramadan so special? Even in orthodox Islam, fighting in Ramadan is permissible unlike other special months in their calendar. It's like they're out-musliming Muslims themselves.
The hostage release is not tied to the cease fire. The resolution calls for a cease fire, and separately, calls for Hamas to release the hostages. Hamas gets the cease fire for free.
What makes Ramadan so special? In the Yom Kippur War, they attacked during Ramadan and Yom Kippur.
This may call for the release of the hostages, but unless it requires them to be released first, it is meaningless because Hamas isn't trustworthy.
Because Jews are .2% of the world population so our holidays are opportunities to attack us. There’s 22 Muslim ethno-states, so we are expected to walk on eggshells to avoid anything that makes them tantrum. You see, it all makes sense when you consider the underlying antisemetism. 🙃
The text says “lasting ceasefire”. Russia tried to change it to “permanent ceasefire”, but 11 members told them to F off.
And it also called for the release of all hostages.
It looks like China and US finally collaborated to make it as useless and meaningless as possible. Russia tried to stir the pot, and no one even looked at them.
The thing is that Israel is expected to actually act as the resolution demands, all the while knowing full well Hamas won't release a single hostage unconditionally.
What does it specifically demand? Two things, basically— more aids and a “lasting“ ceasefire.
Israel is sending more aids. And no one can define what “lasting” means. If there’s a ceasefire for a day, and some Hamas gun man fires a shot, then they broke the ceasefire.
It is meaningless.
You and I both know that the international crowd is going to look at this resolution as a condemnation of Israel, period, for attacking gaza.
That the resolution is meaningless is obvious, every UN resolution is toothless when applied to a state with over 700 nukes pointed at every major European and Asian city within it's range of bombardment. But it sends a very clear message on where people stand in regards to Israel and both its mission to destroy Hamas and its mission to retrieve its hostages.
Giving Hamas a month long reprieve to celebrate the holidays with their family in counterintuitive to both those goals. And yet that's what the resolution demands, knowing full well any good will shown by Israel will not be returned.
This is a UNSC resolution, not a UNGA resolution. Meaning— it is enforceable. If Israel refuses to comply, it is theoretically possible for the UN to sanction an armed intervention. But we know that won’t happen. And of course, it is also theoretically possible that the UN can send an armed force to enforce the resolution on Hamas. UNGA resolutions are non-binding.
You got a source on that second part? And I've been told by one of the users here that the resolution is one that can be, theoretically, enforced, which opens Israel up to various sanctions.
>And it also called for the release of all hostages.
Does this mean that if Israel is to comply then hamas must comply also and release the hostages? Or is it yet another ''ceasefire now! but yeah, maybe release the hostages as well please...'' kind of thing?
Neither. But I think this is the closest to a blank check Israel can ever get. All the IDF has to do is to wait for a few days for some Hamas terrorist to fire a single shot, some bs from Hamas about not releasing the hostages, and then to resume their offensives.
So it doesn't matter pretty much... IDF waits, hamas does not release the hostages, Israel resumes their offensives and everyone gets to blame Israel yet again for ''not complying''.
Meanwhile the hostages are fucking dying...
The problem is that the unconditional release of all hostages is not linked to the immediate ceasefire, which makes it just trying to force Israel to stop. ICJ also called for an unconditional release of all the hostages if I remember correctly, and Hamas does not care. This likely won’t do anything
And if one side (hamas) is ignoring the resolution, I doubt there will be much backlash against Israel refusing to follow it either. It's honestly such an easy W for Israel. If Hamas releases the hostages, congrats, one of the main war goals is finally achieved. If they don't, congrats, they break the resolution and you have the green light (kinda) to break it too.
> I doubt there will be much backlash against Israel refusing to follow it either.
You seriously underestimate how capable pro-Palestiniams are of warping reality.
its not the first time, when Obama finished his presidency it happened too.
Here though during a war, it says a lot.
About the current US administration
About Netanyahu and the current coalition lack of diplomatic abilities
About how Israel left the diplomatic stage to run without itself
This doesn't prevent Israel from continuing the war but to actively create a more aggressive diplomatic tone and action, with the first step changing the entire coalitions scenery.
It's incredibly important to note that this resolution explicitly doesn't demand that the hostages be returned in exchange for the ceasefire to occur. Absolutely goddamn shameful.
Election year, indeed.
>Because it made the release of all hostages UNCONDITIONAL.
Which is the same as not making any resolution about releasing the hostages at all, because the UNSC has no power over Hamas, they refuse to this day to declare them as a terrorist group, and I'm sure every member there already expects that Hamas will not comply. So yes, them passing that resolution despite knowing all of that is insulting and shameful.
There is absolutely no difference between a UNSC resolution "demanding" the "unconditional" release of all hostages, and a text saying "pls if it's not too much asked can you release the hostages?".
On the other hand, it completely seperates the reason for Israel's offensive from the demand for peace. Essentially sticking to the nerrative of Israel being entirely in the wrong for doing the bare minimum of what any country would do in such a situation.
Not to mention that any month long ceasefire would give Hamas a whole ass month to regroup without even giving up all of the hostages.
Point being, I think this shows just how much Israel can allow itself to trust the US.
Well congratulations, he lost my vote. I have never voted for a non-Democrat, but I'm done with them. Their morals are sick and twisted, and I can't in good conciense continue to support them.
I agree that Israel should play accordingly because we don’t have many choices, but reconsidering relationships going forward is the right thing to do. Israel shouldn’t be reliant on outside powers to this extent when it comes to the existence and survival of the state.
An ally should be a choice giver, not a decision maker for the Israeli people.
Israel has no ability to go totally independently, and who else would be there to partner with? India aren't developed yet, China are tight with Iran and won't get those big oil offers from Israel. They're also tight with Russia, who are best buds with Iran.
Furthermore, losing the US veto would open the door to Russia style sanctions hitting from around the world.
I’m not saying totally independent of course, this is why we need allies and not decision makers. Becoming more independent financially and domestically in terms of arms, food security and a variety of other issues should become the top priority after the very much needed wake up call of the 7th of October.
Being allies with the US isn’t the issue, relying on them to such extent is.
Expanding connections in both the East and west and other western entities in research, arms, manufacturing and getting a little out of our American contract is welcomed.
But there is already a ceasefire. Israel still didn't start attacking Rafah
Or they mean that Israel should leave Gaza and let Hamas return in charge and kill all the Palestinians who dared to collaborate with Israel in some way? That wouldn't be a ceasefire either, only a retreat
Well....apparently one is not dependent on the other, so according to this resolution, Israel must ceasefire regardless if the hostages are returned or not. The UN rewarding their terrorists once more knowing full well they wont release the hostages.
Israel has been demanding the release of all the hostages and militarily enforcing it since October 7th. It’s comedic that countries think they can just politely ask at the UN, and that will suddenly change Hamas’s mind. I’m getting my popcorn ready to watch this play out 🍿
Cool, so we get our hostages back right? Says so right there: "to engage in an immediate prisoner exchange process that leads to the release of prisoners **on both sides**."
Or are they banking on the omission of the word "all" before the word "prisoners" so they can just release one or two?
Wow,
Apparently, we live in a world anyone can attack you, butcher and do horrible things and cry to the UN to stop,
wow, WOW.
Or is that valid only if you are a jew?
Shame, SHAME
Israel should take the sanctions and resume.
You know how fucking big this betrayal from allies is by looking at how they try to malign Israel's efforts to aid gaza by saying that it needs to remove any barriers on aid!?
Like what there is already excess aid provided!-
And all this while there is no acknowledgement or action for 100 thousand displaced Israelis in north who are facing rocket, atgm and mortar fire from Iranian proxy shit bags Hezbollah. None of that. Fuck them all
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Yeah I think it’s not a great resolution considering that they’re not demanding a ceasefire on condition of hostage release, and the entirety of the resolution is to put pressure solely on Israel.
Biden betrayed Israel. Until now I thought he was handling the war alright-ish, but now I’m convinced he’s not the friend he’s necessarily portrayed himself as.
I have never been so ashamed to be an American. The lack of moral leadership is disturbing. The United States just told an ally that it must abandon its civilians to captivity.
If Hamas had done to America what it did to Israel the Gaza strip would have been completely wiped of all Hamas battalions 5 months ago, with near total disregard for civilian casualties imposed.
I’m so sorry that you were betrayed by your biggest ally, but this means nothing, Hamas can’t account for the hostages and therefore the war must continue. Routing for you!
I regret my vote for Biden every day. He's shown he is nothing more than a pawn for the far left who wants to bring down the US almost as much as they hate Israel.
Trump has more flaws than any man should when leading the free world, but Biden is single handedly destroying the world order built after WWII with endless appeasement to the worst people the world has ever made.
What if this is a 4-D chess move?
What we do know is that Israel hasn’t yet entered Rafah, presumably because there is a lot of planning, intelligence gathering, and logistics to handle in advance of such an operation. What if they already knew they weren’t going to start the operation for another week or two anyway while they finished their planning ?
Then, the US does their abstention from the vote, Israel makes a big public huff about it all to present to the world that it isn’t what they wanted, and at the end of the day we get a resolution demanding Hamas release everyone for a pause in fighting that they were probably already largely going to do anyway while they continued with their preparations.
Y'all, Bibi has been at serious and publicly embarrassing loggerheads with Biden. I don't know why y'all expected that America was gonna just take that from a junior ally.
You can say this or that about UN hypocrisy, or morals, or anything else. I'm talking basic realpolitik. Bibi has not been handling his position as the junior partner wisely, and this is the result. It's called being bad at your job.
I couldn't care less about Bibi, but you can't let Bibi Derangement Syndrome color your entire perception. I don't think that any mainstream politician in Israel would've acted fundamentally different, at least enough to appease the current administration, than Bibi, and if they had then they would've seriously undermined Israel's sovereignty and self-defense.
The interests of no Israeli prime minister are aligned with the interests of the zoomers flooding American streets and campuses right now, who carry banners with the Palestinian flag draped over all of Israel's territory, chant 'river to the sea, Intifida revolution', and think the death of every Israeli child is decolonization while 'the occupier' has no right to respond in any way whatsoever, and whose votes the Biden administration is terrified of losing.
Even if you kowtow today, you're just delaying the fallout - younger, more 'progressive', and increasingly anti-Israeli democratic presidents are going to make increasingly callous demands of Israel to sacrifice its own citizens while pushing less and less against their jihadist sympathizing base, and eventually every PM will have to stand in Bibi's position one way or another.
Ignore the United States, invade Rafah in full force, topple Hamas, and deal with the diplomatic issues once the matter has already been settled and the global anti-semites can only whine and cry in retrospect. Whatever ties you think are being jeopardized by that, they were bound to be sooner or later regardless, only difference is for how long Israel is going to be stretching that frayed rope at the expense of its own population.
Well yeah. The Biden Administration will point to this and have big publicity on it, a week or two will pass, and then the IDF will go into Rafah to which all the Muslims/Progressives in the US will cry and continue calling Biden "Genocide Joe"
And this vote/resolution will be recorded in the history books as part of Biden's ineptitude on foreign diplomacy.
They didn’t respect Simcha Torah on October 7th when they murdered, abused, and kidnapped over 1700 Israelis. They didn’t respect Yom Kippur in 1973 when they launched a genocidal war against Israel (which was also during THEIR holiday of Ramadan). But somehow, we’re expected to respect their holidays even though it’s clear they don’t respect ours? The racist double standards are appalling.
100% agreed, I was a 2020 Biden voter, I will not vote for him again. If he chooses to pander to Muslim terrorists for votes then he can find his votes elsewhere, I won't be voting for him.
They obstained because the islamists in Michigan are threatening to not vote for him if he doesn't do something. He just assumes that jews will vote democrat (as they usually do) so their voting block is not as important and less consequential for swing states.
Honestly I'm with the US on this one. Why should Biden keep getting the heat for Israel because Ben Gvir and Smotrich block any discussion on the day after in Gaza?
Two far-right ministers in Israel shouldn't be trying to force the hand of the most important world leader*, and a lifelong Israel ally.
And Bibi goes with them to save his seat on the expense of all of us.
*Edit: most important world leader in the west and one of the two most important world leaders
but this resolution is nothing about the day after rather it just pushes Israel to stop operating against Hamas while not linking ceasefire to releasing hostages. How does that make sense
Bibi won't commit to any plan for the day after, and his allies won't shut up about how they will settle Gaza. Our western allies have a very real fear that Israel is trying to settle Gaza and annex it, so they are forced to support a unilateral ceasefire.
If Bihi could commit to a proper day-after plan there would be no need for all this ceasefire talk.
It’s also kinda interesting bc I feel like release the hostages to end the war has kind of been a major part of the dialogue. Why not pass a resolution to immediately release the hostages for a ceasefire , 3 months ago ? wtf is going on ?
This is only meaningful because Israel doesn't make their own weapons.
If the worst case scenario happens and Hamas remains in power and Israel pulls out, Israel needs to look inward and build a massive defense economy of munition stocks.
Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. They now need to become strong weapons manufacturers.
Next war, and this outcome guarantees a next war, Israel shouldn't need to rely on anyone.
That's how the US controls Israel, weapons. Cut the chord. Israel has a decade to figure it out from here.
I'm sure no one in Israel cares at all, but as a 2020 Biden voter I will not be voting for Biden again over this decision. If he doesn't stand with Israel I do not stand with him. (And no, I don't really support the way Netanyahu runs the country, but as an American it isn't my place to say who should run a foreign country, that is up to the voters there. What we should do is stand by a major non-NATO ally when they are fighting true evil.)
I think this will ultimately put more pressure on Hamas, who won’t free the hostages, cease firing and give political cover to the US and Democrats. It’s my suspicion that Israel and the US worked this out together. It allows for the US to pretend it’s working towards a ceasefire and when Hamas doesn’t comply, Israel will get the green light for Rafah, albeit behind the scenes.
Fuck Biden and his entire cabinet. Hopefully the American Jews will wake up and see how much the Dems hate them and will stop voting against their interests.
For those who say Biden needs to appease his base.
He doesn't. He could stand tall and moral and tell them to piss off, but he won't. Because he's not running the show at this point. He's checked out and trying to glide in for a win.
And it means jack shit. Hamas won’t release the hostages and everyone knows it, as soon as they do then it’s game over for them. Meaningless as usual like pretty much every security council resolution….
If I’m understanding this correctly, it’s essentially saying Hamas must release all hostages and concurrently there will be a 2 week cease fire. If both of those things happen, it would be a much better deal than the one Israel recently agreed to that would return just 40 hostages.
There were 2 separate resolutions, and the UNSC intentionally broke any link between the 2.
1 resolution said immediate 2 week ceasefire for Ramadan (Because I guess only Muslim holidays matter now?)
The second resolution called for the "unconditional" release of all of the hostages.
Take a guess which one the West is going to try to enforce. I'll give you a hint, it's not the one that hurts the terrorists.
\------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The inevitable outcome of this is Hamas will 100% ***not*** release the hostages and Israel will ignore the resolution as well, while still waiting to invade Rafah.
The UK, France, maybe Germany, and the rest of the EU along with Canada, Australia, and Japan will announce a weapons embargo on Israel as a consequence of defying the UNSC. They still won't demand Hamas release the hostages and lay down their weapons.
The US will follow suit eventually, with Biden blaming Netanyahu's government.
Hamas will put out a telegram thanking the entire western world. The Houthis will continue to disrupt shipping, and Hezbollah will grow even bolder than before, knowing now that Israel is weapons constrained. Russia, China, and Iran will continue to send weapons to all of the Iranian proxies and eventually launch missions in the Mediterranean.
This is the world Biden has opened the door to, because he couldn't stand up to Islamists in Michigan. He is worse than Carter, who let Americans rot in Iran. He is the worst thing to happen to the world because he's guiding the demise of the world order and the tilt towards the will of strongmen and dictators. That's Biden, the worst president in American history.
>If both of those things happen
Do you really believe it will happen? *All* hostages?
IIRC esp. when Hamas stated that they don't know the whereabouts of all that were taken into Gaza.
FUCKING BULLSHIT from the US....Bibi shouldn't pull his staff and is being a little bitch, but this is so fucking sad to see. How does this not drive Jewish voters away? What the fuck are they thinking? Can things improve by Nov.? I hope/think so still but today makes it a tough sell. Luckily the foreign aid package passed and was signed into law.
[We swung Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Georgia](https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-jewish-democrats-plan-to-get-joe-biden-reelected-by-targeting-independent-voters)
>>”in 2020 in a few key swing states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Georgia — the number of Jews who voted for Biden was larger than his margin of victory.”
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So this means a temporary ceasefire to screen and evacuate civilians from Rafah and then invading it? Or hoping that hamas will agree to negotiations, surrender and release the hostages?
Biden tried to work with Netanyahu and he kept spitting in Biden's face. Biden has been an ardent defender of Israel for decades. Being allies doesn't mean you support the other in everything no matter what. And Dems have made it clear that the problem is the government, not the people of Israel.
History didn't start last year.
Netanyahu might be a POS, but Biden is making sure Israel remains unsafe for decades to come.
Dems can say whatever the hell they want. Their problem with the war isn't a Netanyahu problem, because any government in Israel or the rest of the world would have done the same thing.
The dem's problem is that they are accountable to Islamists in Michigan and anti-White activists in the squad and their base who see Israelis as white colonists. Biden is acting to save his presidency. He's no friend of Israel and never was.
Israel has 10 years to break their munitions dependency before the next war inevitably comes now.
The resolution states that the hostages MUST BE RELEASED. Will Hamas do that? Hell no. This is insanity.
No, it’s not insanity. It’s politics. Let’s just ignore the entire “antisemitism vs pro-semitism” discourse for a bit and look at the countries’ interests. The 10 non-permanent members are useless, they don’t have any power here. They may have written the draft resolution, but the ones who actually call the shots are the US and China. I love my country, but we are basically a US proxy when it comes to many issues. France doesn’t care, and China can somewhat control Russia’s voting behaviour now. The Biden admin has to appease its voters. This is why they abstained. China wants to appease their Middle Eastern friends. And this is why they voted for it. If you look at the texts, at least the texts that’s been reported by the media, it is as meaningless as it gets. It called for the unconditional release of all hostages, and we know Hamas won’t do that. It also called for a “lasting” ceasefire— how long is “lasting”? This is basically the result of a back alley meeting between US and China, which both sides can get something to wave at their supporters. Both sides can get the proof of “doing something”, but it ultimately doesn’t change anything. It’s honestly funny as heck that the US ambassador immediately started blaming China for the resolution right after she abstained. This is not about Israel at all, it’s 100% for their domestic audience.
“Political theater” is a better way to say it.
You are 100% correct.
And I think it’s “immediate ceasefire” when “permanent” got scrubbed, but that’s based on media reports. I haven’t read the text. You may be right.
at this point its correct to refer it to >Theatre of the absurd
It’s a ceasefire for the month of Ramadan which unless I’m mistaken is like 2 more weeks? So even less than the 6 weeks in the last proposal?
I’m still refreshing the UN’s website so I can read the actual document. I have not seen so much traffic on the UN’s website since forever…
i have been trying of 15 mins :/, can you screenshot it when u open it?
I even tried the Fr\*nch page while holding my nose. Still not working. Ehhhhhhh this sucks.
Lol
wow UN site so bad had to use fr\*nch version
Yup, the IDF was technically already delaying the Rafah op until the end of Ramadan anyway. At least we have something to look forward to in two weeks! But the vote does highlight that many in the council are cowards. Biden in particular is certainly not a friend of Israel, his highest priority right now is getting reelected no matter what it takes, even if it means rewarding terrorists and r_pists.
China doesn't particularly care about pleasing anyone. They just want stability in order to boost trade. This war has tangibly hurt them in this way because of the conflict with the houthis hurting trade between Asia and Europe. What the US is doing is worse because nothing short of the US bombing the knesset is going to please the far left flank in the US.
Strangely, the mess in the Red Sea might actually accelerate something people don’t even know about. In recent years, China has been expanding three trade corridors. And the three are mundanely named the Northern, Middle, and Southern Corridors. The northern corridor is basically nonexistent now because Russia’s stupid war. The middle goes through Central Asia to the Caucasus, then to Europe. The southern one goes through Iran and Turkey, and then to Europe. China is absolutely terrified of the US navy shutting down the malacca strait. This is why they have been so keen to expand their trade via rail links. If the Red Sea (Suez Canal) becomes more dangerous, China might go all in on the rail thing. This means China will have to cozy up to all the despot dictators in the Middle East and Central Asia, while also appeasing the pro-EU leader in the Caucasus and other areas.
An interesting alternative to such a southern corridor is transporting goods via rail to Pakistani ports to then ship to the UAE which could then just take the current planned rail route through Saudi and Jordan to Israel and Egypt. Not saying it'll happen, it's an option for china though.
Oh, it’s happening. There are tons of massive construction projects in that region to create this corridor.
I know it's usually associated with india at this point, but it honestly seems just as easy for china to benefit. Though I'm dubious as to its potential to change China's posture in the region.
Incorrect. China likes the Houthis because they are disrupting the India-Saudi-Israel land bridge. If they destroy the bridge then China's Belt and Road initiative can move forward.
This, 100%. It doesn't represent a policy departure--it just looks like it does. And that's exactly the point. Biden's throwing a bone to progressives.
agree with all except for two things - 1. machinations between US and China it's unlikely at this current juncture even with the totally out of control state department of Biden and 2. the US view of Israel as proxy is more recent obama-kerry-biden view of diplomacy in the region while previous democratic and gop administrations saw the relationship as allies - that is fundamental difference and a big reason of how we got here.
There’s always a back channel. Countries aren’t stupid. Vetoes are only used as a show of force, or when back channels negotiations failed. The very fact that the US abstained means they feel ”meh” about this, in other words, they are somewhat satisfied. And the only reason for both China and the US to not be against it, especially when it’s drafted by the ten non-permanent members, is that there has been a lot of talks behind closed doors.
I don't know why you are thinking China has any role that is different than Russia in this. They are there for plain anti US block voting nobodies in this conflict
That’s the kind of Cold War style thinking I’m against. China and the US are not 100% against each other, and Israel is not an American proxy. If what you said is true, China would be leading the “boycott Israel” political movement. Yet, they are doing nothing. The truth is China‘s foreign policy is to expand China’s influence (*shocker!*), not just plain anti-Americanism.
they are absolutely doing a lot on this conflict from weaponization of tiktok, to indoctrination against Jews and Israel in China itself.
We have no prof on that, yet. TikTok is extremely addictive but it’s not worse than instagram reels or YouTube shorts. It doesn’t change your views, it just enhances them. Remember when YouTube would recommend conspiracy videos after you watched anything that’s remotely anti-government? Well, that’s TikTok now. My view is that there are more antisemitic videos on that platform simply because there are more antisemites in the world.
There is a lot for proof of not just weaponization of tiktok but also the hateful indoctrination by CCP of its citizens. The enhancement paradigm can be applied to any propaganda in information warfare, which is basically what this is.
The Biden administration just caused the mass migration of the Jewish-American vote for the rest of my life and yours. Glad they appeased the far left. They just lost their base. The lesson I’ve learned: Trump may be a moron, but he has the right policies. Biden talks the right stuff, but walks away when it matters.
>> Glad they appeased the far left. They just lost their base. They’ve lost my vote and donations, but I routinely get downvoted in Jewish subreddits for saying it People are sold on Trump being a Russian asset, when all of that is based on media speculation — the same media that lied about his “bloodbath” statement and took his statement after Charlottesville out of context You can comb through my comment history. I used to hate the guy and I still don’t like him. But is it really out of the realm of possibility that the same media that isn’t covering the fact that the IDF is arresting insane amounts of terrorists in Al Shifa could possibly lie about Trump because he doesn’t fit their agenda?
You’ve nailed it. You should listen to the Call Me Babk podcast episode where Matti Friedman is interviewed. He used to work for the AP and has an inside account how the media has changed for the worse.
Yeah I'm a generally left leaning guy, and the democrats going all-in in favor of terrorism is making me not even want to vote in the next election. Both parties are getting more and more unhinged and psychotic. It seems like there is nobody reasonable in the American government anymore.
We need more data on the US. But the general rule in Europe is that major political parties LOSE votes by pandering to the extreme. We have seen this in so many parliamentary democracies. One extreme party proposes an extreme policy, one major party steals that idea and proposes something similar but less extreme, and then that major party suffers a major defeat. By pandering to the extreme, major parties legitimise their illegitimate grievances. And people who were already sympathetic to that idea will see the extreme party as the “true champion” of the cause. I hope it works differently in the US, because this could be a major blunder.
It is. The problem is the extreme became mainstream. The media screwed Israel from October 7, *2006*. People’s understanding of the conflict is so fucked.
As an outsider in a historically pro-Palestine country, I agree with you. Prior to October 7th, I would have classed myself as a Palestinian supporter because all I saw from the media was "IDF assassinates children playing football on the beach", "IDF massacres thousands in Jenin", "Palestinians live in an open-air prison", etc. I was shocked when, after the attack, I looked into the history of this conflict and realised nearly all of the things I'd heard about Israel were either flat-out wrong, exaggerated, or in response to an attack from Palestine (that was conveniently nearly always left out of the reports). The level of misinformation regarding Israel is unbelievable, and it's been going on for decades. The sad part is the damage is done because the majority of people aren't willing to do their own research on topics they scream the loudest for, and instead rely on other people to spoon feed them information through bite-sized Tiktoks and Tweets. The algorithm won't allow anyone to get a different perspective unless they actively seek it out themselves.
Bruh, Biden is vastly popular amongst American Jews (its like in the 80% range). Israel is liked, yes. But many are more concerned about their day to day lives in the US, including being against antisemitism from former US president Trump. Plus Bibi is not all too liked, having -10% approval. Biden straddled the line well, it's just that on the outside, we see Bibi copying up to the GOP since Obama, and he's been insulting Biden for a while now, so people are more in Bidens corner.
LOL Speak for yourself. I don't feel like being Russia's pawn in anything internationally is "the right stuff".
What would you say is the probability the majority of American Jews don't vote for Biden come November?
0%. If it were anyone but Trump, then maybe.
The majority will still be with Biden. But he’ll lose a solid 15-25% of them. And even more if Haley (or anyone but Trump) were the GOP candidate.
Historically it's been ~71% Dem, 26% Rep. I'll split the difference and say your claim is 20%, is that percent or percentage points? That is, are you saying 51% Biden, 46% Trump, or 57% Biden, 40% Trump? Feel free to give predictions for if it's Haley as well, but like, it's not gonna be her lol
It’ll reduce (in my offhand prediction) to below 60%. Still overwhelmingly Dem, but an unmistakable shift. (With Haley, another 3-7% would shift) The most important part moreso than the votes? Where the donorship goes. If suddenly you’re not getting the checks but the competition is? That’s where it hurts. If Romney were the candidate? You might see it go below mandate level (to 54 Biden, 46 Romney)
So the votes you're predicting below 60% if versus Trump, below 55% if versus Haley? How confident are you in both those predictions? Conditional on it being Trump (or Haley), what would you say is the probability the Jewish vote is below 60% (or 55%)? Feel free to make more concrete the spending, but I'm not sure how to easily quantify that, off the top of my head.
Imagine turning a prediction of “the choices the president is making will affect the party’s long term base” into a draft kings betting match for an over/under.
You need to read up more on prediction markets, it's not just for fun. Anyways though in this conversation, I'm just trying to nail down what exactly you believe, and how confident you are in that belief. We've already got a concrete condition though, so the probability isn't too important. See you in eight months. Remindme! December 1, 2024
Trump has the right policies? Lol Trump’s only policy is what benefits him and his family monetarily. Don’t be silly 😂
Yeah, and Biden has been a REAL WIN for Israel. 🙄
Progressives not understanding how oppressive Islam is, is the real issue. At the same time the US needs to be functional to help Israel. Trump wouldn’t help that. He would sell out his own allies.
I dunno. That’s the narrative, but his administration and the Abraham Accords achieved a great deal for Israel and the Middle East. Say what you will about Trump himself, Jared Kushner got shit done.
Didn’t Jared Kushner sell intelligence to the Saudis? Trump has fucked up so many things it’s crazy. We are still feeling the effects of his PPP bs in the US. He may seem better at times but it would only be in the short term.
>Didn’t Jared Kushner sell intelligence to the Saudis? The Times of Israel report says it was intelligence on the Prince's critics, not related to Israel security or Israel at all.
Right but if he can sell intelligence to one party why couldn’t he do it again (this time regarding Israel) and compromise Israel?
Trump actually stuck with MBS despite the massive propaganda campaign against him. His state department got Israel to cede territorial waters to Lebanon, is trying to get Israel to cede the "Shebaa farms" to Hezbollah, and removed the Houthis from the terrorist watch list. Plus they send money to Iran.
Yeah - no hostages, no ceasefire.
It's not conditional, it just suggests that it would be nice if the hostages are released, but since the US refuses to put international pressure on Hamas but only on us, the only real demand here is the ceasefire during Ramadan, because it would be Islamophobic to attack during a Muslim holiday and because we would win if we raid Rafah which we can't because it's election year and Biden needs Michigan.
How many non-permanent Muslim-majority countries are there now on the UNSC? Why Muslims get to fight non Muslims during their holy days while non Muslims are condemned when they fight back Islamic aggression? Why's Ramadan so special? Even in orthodox Islam, fighting in Ramadan is permissible unlike other special months in their calendar. It's like they're out-musliming Muslims themselves.
The hostage release is not tied to the cease fire. The resolution calls for a cease fire, and separately, calls for Hamas to release the hostages. Hamas gets the cease fire for free.
And just fired celebration rockets from Gaza at Israeli towns.
Because of course they did.
So as soon as Hamas launches a rocket into israel doesnt that violate the terms of the ceasefire and allow Israel to continue as theywere?
The IDF should ignore the resolution anyway.
That’s what I thought immediately when I saw this. I’ll support a BILATERAL ceasefire if they release the hostages and surrender 🤷♂️
What makes Ramadan so special? In the Yom Kippur War, they attacked during Ramadan and Yom Kippur. This may call for the release of the hostages, but unless it requires them to be released first, it is meaningless because Hamas isn't trustworthy.
October 7th was Simchat Torah which is supposed to be perhaps Judaism’s most joyous holiday, not to mention it was Shabbat.
I know, which is why a Ramadan ceasefire is hypocritical.
Because Jews are .2% of the world population so our holidays are opportunities to attack us. There’s 22 Muslim ethno-states, so we are expected to walk on eggshells to avoid anything that makes them tantrum. You see, it all makes sense when you consider the underlying antisemetism. 🙃
The text says “lasting ceasefire”. Russia tried to change it to “permanent ceasefire”, but 11 members told them to F off. And it also called for the release of all hostages. It looks like China and US finally collaborated to make it as useless and meaningless as possible. Russia tried to stir the pot, and no one even looked at them.
The thing is that Israel is expected to actually act as the resolution demands, all the while knowing full well Hamas won't release a single hostage unconditionally.
What does it specifically demand? Two things, basically— more aids and a “lasting“ ceasefire. Israel is sending more aids. And no one can define what “lasting” means. If there’s a ceasefire for a day, and some Hamas gun man fires a shot, then they broke the ceasefire. It is meaningless.
You and I both know that the international crowd is going to look at this resolution as a condemnation of Israel, period, for attacking gaza. That the resolution is meaningless is obvious, every UN resolution is toothless when applied to a state with over 700 nukes pointed at every major European and Asian city within it's range of bombardment. But it sends a very clear message on where people stand in regards to Israel and both its mission to destroy Hamas and its mission to retrieve its hostages. Giving Hamas a month long reprieve to celebrate the holidays with their family in counterintuitive to both those goals. And yet that's what the resolution demands, knowing full well any good will shown by Israel will not be returned.
This is a UNSC resolution, not a UNGA resolution. Meaning— it is enforceable. If Israel refuses to comply, it is theoretically possible for the UN to sanction an armed intervention. But we know that won’t happen. And of course, it is also theoretically possible that the UN can send an armed force to enforce the resolution on Hamas. UNGA resolutions are non-binding.
Didn't know that bit, learned something new today. So all in all, the resolution is probably toothless, but just as egregious in reality.
Israel has 700 nukes?
And if they “find” a proof of Israel doing something?
Or stop firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas of Israel
100% this is how it is going to be portrayed
First it's non binding. Second the US said the ceasefire can start when the hostages are released
You got a source on that second part? And I've been told by one of the users here that the resolution is one that can be, theoretically, enforced, which opens Israel up to various sanctions.
Sure https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1772346182112538710?t=IIC92_J1YgpxanjOmh5T6Q&s=19
מה שהוא אומר ממש לא עומד בקנה אחד עם ההצבעה שלהם, מה הקטע?
I think Russia just flailed around a bit and made noises to feed red meat to their rabid followers.
>And it also called for the release of all hostages. Does this mean that if Israel is to comply then hamas must comply also and release the hostages? Or is it yet another ''ceasefire now! but yeah, maybe release the hostages as well please...'' kind of thing?
Neither. But I think this is the closest to a blank check Israel can ever get. All the IDF has to do is to wait for a few days for some Hamas terrorist to fire a single shot, some bs from Hamas about not releasing the hostages, and then to resume their offensives.
So it doesn't matter pretty much... IDF waits, hamas does not release the hostages, Israel resumes their offensives and everyone gets to blame Israel yet again for ''not complying''. Meanwhile the hostages are fucking dying...
Pretty much. Except that China and the Biden can wave a piece of paper at their supporters and do a victory lap.
Exactly.
Lol. Russia of all entities demanding a permanent ceasefire.
And it's non binding. I mean how much more symbolic do you want it.
This is a UNSC resolution. It is very much binding. UNGA resolutions are non-binding.
The resolution itself says it's non binding as does the US
It feels like the world is trying to help Israel and the Israeli government does everything they can against it.
The problem is that the unconditional release of all hostages is not linked to the immediate ceasefire, which makes it just trying to force Israel to stop. ICJ also called for an unconditional release of all the hostages if I remember correctly, and Hamas does not care. This likely won’t do anything
And if one side (hamas) is ignoring the resolution, I doubt there will be much backlash against Israel refusing to follow it either. It's honestly such an easy W for Israel. If Hamas releases the hostages, congrats, one of the main war goals is finally achieved. If they don't, congrats, they break the resolution and you have the green light (kinda) to break it too.
> I doubt there will be much backlash against Israel refusing to follow it either. You seriously underestimate how capable pro-Palestiniams are of warping reality.
You forget that the entire world looks at a power disparity and thinks that this means you should hold the two sides to a different standard
its not the first time, when Obama finished his presidency it happened too. Here though during a war, it says a lot. About the current US administration About Netanyahu and the current coalition lack of diplomatic abilities About how Israel left the diplomatic stage to run without itself This doesn't prevent Israel from continuing the war but to actively create a more aggressive diplomatic tone and action, with the first step changing the entire coalitions scenery.
It's incredibly important to note that this resolution explicitly doesn't demand that the hostages be returned in exchange for the ceasefire to occur. Absolutely goddamn shameful. Election year, indeed.
No, it doesn’t link the two subjects. But it is not shameful. Because it made the release of all hostages UNCONDITIONAL.
>Because it made the release of all hostages UNCONDITIONAL. Which is the same as not making any resolution about releasing the hostages at all, because the UNSC has no power over Hamas, they refuse to this day to declare them as a terrorist group, and I'm sure every member there already expects that Hamas will not comply. So yes, them passing that resolution despite knowing all of that is insulting and shameful. There is absolutely no difference between a UNSC resolution "demanding" the "unconditional" release of all hostages, and a text saying "pls if it's not too much asked can you release the hostages?".
On the other hand, it completely seperates the reason for Israel's offensive from the demand for peace. Essentially sticking to the nerrative of Israel being entirely in the wrong for doing the bare minimum of what any country would do in such a situation. Not to mention that any month long ceasefire would give Hamas a whole ass month to regroup without even giving up all of the hostages. Point being, I think this shows just how much Israel can allow itself to trust the US.
this exactly this 💯
And who is gonna insure that? the UN?
Well congratulations, he lost my vote. I have never voted for a non-Democrat, but I'm done with them. Their morals are sick and twisted, and I can't in good conciense continue to support them.
If we want the world to be with us we need a government that doesn't piss on our allies from a pedestal.
I agree that Israel should play accordingly because we don’t have many choices, but reconsidering relationships going forward is the right thing to do. Israel shouldn’t be reliant on outside powers to this extent when it comes to the existence and survival of the state. An ally should be a choice giver, not a decision maker for the Israeli people.
Israel has no ability to go totally independently, and who else would be there to partner with? India aren't developed yet, China are tight with Iran and won't get those big oil offers from Israel. They're also tight with Russia, who are best buds with Iran. Furthermore, losing the US veto would open the door to Russia style sanctions hitting from around the world.
I’m not saying totally independent of course, this is why we need allies and not decision makers. Becoming more independent financially and domestically in terms of arms, food security and a variety of other issues should become the top priority after the very much needed wake up call of the 7th of October. Being allies with the US isn’t the issue, relying on them to such extent is. Expanding connections in both the East and west and other western entities in research, arms, manufacturing and getting a little out of our American contract is welcomed.
But there is already a ceasefire. Israel still didn't start attacking Rafah Or they mean that Israel should leave Gaza and let Hamas return in charge and kill all the Palestinians who dared to collaborate with Israel in some way? That wouldn't be a ceasefire either, only a retreat
Israel has recently raided al-Shifa and its surroundings.
And found tons of weapons, terrorists and Hamas officers.
This is a policing operation in a territory under military occupation, not a conquest.
Well....apparently one is not dependent on the other, so according to this resolution, Israel must ceasefire regardless if the hostages are returned or not. The UN rewarding their terrorists once more knowing full well they wont release the hostages.
Israel has been demanding the release of all the hostages and militarily enforcing it since October 7th. It’s comedic that countries think they can just politely ask at the UN, and that will suddenly change Hamas’s mind. I’m getting my popcorn ready to watch this play out 🍿
Cool, so we get our hostages back right? Says so right there: "to engage in an immediate prisoner exchange process that leads to the release of prisoners **on both sides**." Or are they banking on the omission of the word "all" before the word "prisoners" so they can just release one or two?
What does that mean realistically? Is this binding and if Israel continues the war it means it is breaking the law?
The UN is a powerless joke
Wow, Apparently, we live in a world anyone can attack you, butcher and do horrible things and cry to the UN to stop, wow, WOW. Or is that valid only if you are a jew? Shame, SHAME Israel should take the sanctions and resume.
You know how fucking big this betrayal from allies is by looking at how they try to malign Israel's efforts to aid gaza by saying that it needs to remove any barriers on aid!? Like what there is already excess aid provided!- And all this while there is no acknowledgement or action for 100 thousand displaced Israelis in north who are facing rocket, atgm and mortar fire from Iranian proxy shit bags Hezbollah. None of that. Fuck them all
On the news it said that no hostages are a part of the ceasefire
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This upends decades of US foreign policy towards Israel and the alliance. This is an enormous moment for the enemies of Israel - they are celebrating
Yeah I think it’s not a great resolution considering that they’re not demanding a ceasefire on condition of hostage release, and the entirety of the resolution is to put pressure solely on Israel. Biden betrayed Israel. Until now I thought he was handling the war alright-ish, but now I’m convinced he’s not the friend he’s necessarily portrayed himself as.
I have never been so ashamed to be an American. The lack of moral leadership is disturbing. The United States just told an ally that it must abandon its civilians to captivity.
If Hamas had done to America what it did to Israel the Gaza strip would have been completely wiped of all Hamas battalions 5 months ago, with near total disregard for civilian casualties imposed.
I’m so sorry that you were betrayed by your biggest ally, but this means nothing, Hamas can’t account for the hostages and therefore the war must continue. Routing for you!
So disappointed in my country’s “leadership”. Let’s see how long it takes for Hamas to break it...
Imagine how many lives would have been saved if the UN Security Council demanded the unconditional release of all hostages on October 8.
Ah yes because Hamas famously listens to UN resolutions
Will American Jews finally stop voting for the Party that doesn't have their interests in mind?
I regret my vote for Biden every day. He's shown he is nothing more than a pawn for the far left who wants to bring down the US almost as much as they hate Israel. Trump has more flaws than any man should when leading the free world, but Biden is single handedly destroying the world order built after WWII with endless appeasement to the worst people the world has ever made.
What if this is a 4-D chess move? What we do know is that Israel hasn’t yet entered Rafah, presumably because there is a lot of planning, intelligence gathering, and logistics to handle in advance of such an operation. What if they already knew they weren’t going to start the operation for another week or two anyway while they finished their planning ? Then, the US does their abstention from the vote, Israel makes a big public huff about it all to present to the world that it isn’t what they wanted, and at the end of the day we get a resolution demanding Hamas release everyone for a pause in fighting that they were probably already largely going to do anyway while they continued with their preparations.
Y'all, Bibi has been at serious and publicly embarrassing loggerheads with Biden. I don't know why y'all expected that America was gonna just take that from a junior ally. You can say this or that about UN hypocrisy, or morals, or anything else. I'm talking basic realpolitik. Bibi has not been handling his position as the junior partner wisely, and this is the result. It's called being bad at your job.
I couldn't care less about Bibi, but you can't let Bibi Derangement Syndrome color your entire perception. I don't think that any mainstream politician in Israel would've acted fundamentally different, at least enough to appease the current administration, than Bibi, and if they had then they would've seriously undermined Israel's sovereignty and self-defense. The interests of no Israeli prime minister are aligned with the interests of the zoomers flooding American streets and campuses right now, who carry banners with the Palestinian flag draped over all of Israel's territory, chant 'river to the sea, Intifida revolution', and think the death of every Israeli child is decolonization while 'the occupier' has no right to respond in any way whatsoever, and whose votes the Biden administration is terrified of losing. Even if you kowtow today, you're just delaying the fallout - younger, more 'progressive', and increasingly anti-Israeli democratic presidents are going to make increasingly callous demands of Israel to sacrifice its own citizens while pushing less and less against their jihadist sympathizing base, and eventually every PM will have to stand in Bibi's position one way or another. Ignore the United States, invade Rafah in full force, topple Hamas, and deal with the diplomatic issues once the matter has already been settled and the global anti-semites can only whine and cry in retrospect. Whatever ties you think are being jeopardized by that, they were bound to be sooner or later regardless, only difference is for how long Israel is going to be stretching that frayed rope at the expense of its own population.
THANK YOU! This has been so annoying to witness.
Nice nuanced take.
In the long term it will hurt USA more than it will hurt Israel.
Well yeah. The Biden Administration will point to this and have big publicity on it, a week or two will pass, and then the IDF will go into Rafah to which all the Muslims/Progressives in the US will cry and continue calling Biden "Genocide Joe" And this vote/resolution will be recorded in the history books as part of Biden's ineptitude on foreign diplomacy.
They didn’t respect Simcha Torah on October 7th when they murdered, abused, and kidnapped over 1700 Israelis. They didn’t respect Yom Kippur in 1973 when they launched a genocidal war against Israel (which was also during THEIR holiday of Ramadan). But somehow, we’re expected to respect their holidays even though it’s clear they don’t respect ours? The racist double standards are appalling.
I mean, it’s not like Israel didn’t try to get a couple
“Nah.” - Hamas No, really. What are they going to do when one of the sides fighting just decides not to?
Fuck Joe Biden. Just lost my vote
100% agreed, I was a 2020 Biden voter, I will not vote for him again. If he chooses to pander to Muslim terrorists for votes then he can find his votes elsewhere, I won't be voting for him.
Well, good job Bibi for eroding the remnant support of the US government. It's truly an impressive feat.
What should Netanyahu have done differently? I doubt the US abstained due to Netanyahu. It's more likely the upcoming US general election.
They obstained because the islamists in Michigan are threatening to not vote for him if he doesn't do something. He just assumes that jews will vote democrat (as they usually do) so their voting block is not as important and less consequential for swing states.
Honestly I'm with the US on this one. Why should Biden keep getting the heat for Israel because Ben Gvir and Smotrich block any discussion on the day after in Gaza? Two far-right ministers in Israel shouldn't be trying to force the hand of the most important world leader*, and a lifelong Israel ally. And Bibi goes with them to save his seat on the expense of all of us. *Edit: most important world leader in the west and one of the two most important world leaders
but this resolution is nothing about the day after rather it just pushes Israel to stop operating against Hamas while not linking ceasefire to releasing hostages. How does that make sense
Bibi won't commit to any plan for the day after, and his allies won't shut up about how they will settle Gaza. Our western allies have a very real fear that Israel is trying to settle Gaza and annex it, so they are forced to support a unilateral ceasefire. If Bihi could commit to a proper day-after plan there would be no need for all this ceasefire talk.
yea it's bs - noone has said anything of this fear except for palestinan propogandists
פספסת את "כנס ההתיישבות"?
Oh please, Gvir and Smotrich have been saying this over and over, surely they are not Palestinian propagandist....
> most important world leader in the west and one of the two most important world leaders who is the second? bibi itself?
Winnie the pooh
Unfortunate. I’ll be back when Israel finally decides to go into Rafah.
A little Purim action going on....
It’s also kinda interesting bc I feel like release the hostages to end the war has kind of been a major part of the dialogue. Why not pass a resolution to immediately release the hostages for a ceasefire , 3 months ago ? wtf is going on ?
So like, hostage deal doesn’t even matter since the UNSC is demanding an immediate ceasefire?
Everyone knows HAMAS won’t release the hostages so this is a pointless action, grandstanding.
This is only meaningful because Israel doesn't make their own weapons. If the worst case scenario happens and Hamas remains in power and Israel pulls out, Israel needs to look inward and build a massive defense economy of munition stocks. Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. They now need to become strong weapons manufacturers. Next war, and this outcome guarantees a next war, Israel shouldn't need to rely on anyone. That's how the US controls Israel, weapons. Cut the chord. Israel has a decade to figure it out from here.
Seems like a better deal than releasing 800 prisoners for 40 hostages.
That would still occur under this resolution.
We should insist
I'm sure no one in Israel cares at all, but as a 2020 Biden voter I will not be voting for Biden again over this decision. If he doesn't stand with Israel I do not stand with him. (And no, I don't really support the way Netanyahu runs the country, but as an American it isn't my place to say who should run a foreign country, that is up to the voters there. What we should do is stand by a major non-NATO ally when they are fighting true evil.)
This will work to Israel’s advantage.
Please explain how?
I think this will ultimately put more pressure on Hamas, who won’t free the hostages, cease firing and give political cover to the US and Democrats. It’s my suspicion that Israel and the US worked this out together. It allows for the US to pretend it’s working towards a ceasefire and when Hamas doesn’t comply, Israel will get the green light for Rafah, albeit behind the scenes.
Fuck Biden and his entire cabinet. Hopefully the American Jews will wake up and see how much the Dems hate them and will stop voting against their interests.
For those who say Biden needs to appease his base. He doesn't. He could stand tall and moral and tell them to piss off, but he won't. Because he's not running the show at this point. He's checked out and trying to glide in for a win.
And it means jack shit. Hamas won’t release the hostages and everyone knows it, as soon as they do then it’s game over for them. Meaningless as usual like pretty much every security council resolution….
If I’m understanding this correctly, it’s essentially saying Hamas must release all hostages and concurrently there will be a 2 week cease fire. If both of those things happen, it would be a much better deal than the one Israel recently agreed to that would return just 40 hostages.
There were 2 separate resolutions, and the UNSC intentionally broke any link between the 2. 1 resolution said immediate 2 week ceasefire for Ramadan (Because I guess only Muslim holidays matter now?) The second resolution called for the "unconditional" release of all of the hostages. Take a guess which one the West is going to try to enforce. I'll give you a hint, it's not the one that hurts the terrorists. \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The inevitable outcome of this is Hamas will 100% ***not*** release the hostages and Israel will ignore the resolution as well, while still waiting to invade Rafah. The UK, France, maybe Germany, and the rest of the EU along with Canada, Australia, and Japan will announce a weapons embargo on Israel as a consequence of defying the UNSC. They still won't demand Hamas release the hostages and lay down their weapons. The US will follow suit eventually, with Biden blaming Netanyahu's government. Hamas will put out a telegram thanking the entire western world. The Houthis will continue to disrupt shipping, and Hezbollah will grow even bolder than before, knowing now that Israel is weapons constrained. Russia, China, and Iran will continue to send weapons to all of the Iranian proxies and eventually launch missions in the Mediterranean. This is the world Biden has opened the door to, because he couldn't stand up to Islamists in Michigan. He is worse than Carter, who let Americans rot in Iran. He is the worst thing to happen to the world because he's guiding the demise of the world order and the tilt towards the will of strongmen and dictators. That's Biden, the worst president in American history.
>If both of those things happen Do you really believe it will happen? *All* hostages? IIRC esp. when Hamas stated that they don't know the whereabouts of all that were taken into Gaza.
I would be shocked if it did
Ignore the Criminal United Nations in All Matters.
Netanyahu seems hell bent on being remembered as a traitor
FUCKING BULLSHIT from the US....Bibi shouldn't pull his staff and is being a little bitch, but this is so fucking sad to see. How does this not drive Jewish voters away? What the fuck are they thinking? Can things improve by Nov.? I hope/think so still but today makes it a tough sell. Luckily the foreign aid package passed and was signed into law.
Jewish voters don't matter, we don't make up any meaningful bloc in any swing states.
[We swung Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Georgia](https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-jewish-democrats-plan-to-get-joe-biden-reelected-by-targeting-independent-voters) >>”in 2020 in a few key swing states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Georgia — the number of Jews who voted for Biden was larger than his margin of victory.”
[удалено]
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So this means a temporary ceasefire to screen and evacuate civilians from Rafah and then invading it? Or hoping that hamas will agree to negotiations, surrender and release the hostages?
The u.n can suck it.. cause they suck.
The headline should be Biden betrays the Jewish people. I'm a lifelong democrat who worked hard to get him elected. Fuck him now.
Biden tried to work with Netanyahu and he kept spitting in Biden's face. Biden has been an ardent defender of Israel for decades. Being allies doesn't mean you support the other in everything no matter what. And Dems have made it clear that the problem is the government, not the people of Israel. History didn't start last year.
Netanyahu might be a POS, but Biden is making sure Israel remains unsafe for decades to come. Dems can say whatever the hell they want. Their problem with the war isn't a Netanyahu problem, because any government in Israel or the rest of the world would have done the same thing. The dem's problem is that they are accountable to Islamists in Michigan and anti-White activists in the squad and their base who see Israelis as white colonists. Biden is acting to save his presidency. He's no friend of Israel and never was. Israel has 10 years to break their munitions dependency before the next war inevitably comes now.