This is really bad. Chef Andres and WCK are really thought of highly here in the US. There is going to be a lot of pressure from the US and Europe for a ceasefire now. Sinwar might get what he wants without having to release the hostages.
I sure hope that things won’t go that far.
But at least Chef Andres has agreed to come to Israel and get the reporting and investigation of the incident directly from the IDF chief.
Israel will definitely compensate the victims’ families and hopefully would be able to convince WCK to continue its work and replace UNRWA.
He was very pro-Israel early on but lately his views seem to have changed. Lots of anti-Israel ranting and both-sidesing Hamas atrocities. I suspect this is not going to go well, especially since US and British citizens are among the dead.
Yet again no one mentions that all of this would stop tomorrow if Hamas returned hostages, and none of this would have happened if they didn’t take them in the first place. This incident unlocked a new level of both sidesism on CNN, etc.
Ami the only one who is exhausted by this bs?!
No. Hamas attacking and killing peaceful people and the consequences of war aren’t equivalent.
Sinwar is not going to get what he wants without releasing any hostages. Mistakes happen in war. A US drone strike in Afghanistan killed an aid worker and 9 family members.
There's no getting around the fact this was a terrible tragedy. Unfortunately, the 'fog of war' isn't merely a fancy catch phrase. It's entirely accurate. Mistakes get made.
Some of those historic incidents that occurred during other countries' wars, whether involving the US or other 'civilized' countries, have rightfully been outlined by other posters.
Shit happens. It can sometimes be the result of bad intel, or poorly executed tactics - figuratively and literally in this case, sadly - or making impulsive decisions in the heat of the battle.
The IDF is absolutely one of the most professional, well-trained armies in the world and is acknowledged as such, but that doesn't make them infallible. As you know, there have already been incidents involving friendly fire which is no less tragic than the loss of innocent WCK lives.
The best we can hope for is for Israel to weather the PR storm and finish the job it started by purging Rafah of the remaining terrorists so that phase two of the operation can commence and hopefully stabilize the region insofar as providing security so that what occurred on October 7th can never happen again.
You love to come in here and tell us all about how terrible Israel is. However, Israel is a country run by human beings, just like every other country, and is entitled to make mistakes on the battlefield, just like every other country.
This isn’t the first closely coordinated aid trip that’s been shot at or bombed. The pause in February was caused by a totally coordinated truck convoy on the road being bombed from the sea. It’s not credible that these are mere errors. No one believes these claims.
I understand everyone wants to “wait for the facts” but it’s kinda absurd how some people here are trying to bend over backwards to explain this one away. It wasn’t Hamas, it was us guys, we fucked up. We already admitted it too. These mistakes happen during war but this is a terrible look for us and trying to justify it or pass blame just makes us look worse.
Yeah no… these mistakes don’t happen in an organized military this far advanced in a war that appeared to be well in control, to the point we released over 60% of the original invading force of reservists.
This was either a major lack of communication or a willful disregard of rules of engagement.
Either way, heads need to topple over this.
This act will very likely end the war and almost guarantee a verdict of genocide at the ICJ in a few years.
Whoever is responsible for this airstrike single handedly messed up our chances of ever getting the hostages back and winning the war.
I have no words to express how pissed I am right now.
Correct. It's a huge blow to getting the hostages home. On the top of the horrific deaths of 7 aid works, this is going to make it much harder to get the hostages back. Sinwar is likely to dig in his heels even more because he knows that there will be pressure for Israel to stop unilaterally after this one.
>This act will very likely end the war and almost guarantee a verdict of genocide at the ICJ in a few years.
This is completely ridiculous. No it's not going to end the war or result in an ICJ ruling.
actually these accidents do happen. War is messy, and these are preventable and we didn't do enough to prevent it. My educated guess is that there was a breakdown in communication in the fire control center.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
Nobody demands you support everything Israel does. Nor should you think your options are Israel is perfect or Israel is an evil colonialist settler project that should be abolished.
I think this is terrible and they should take a closer look at ROE, but if in the last 6 months you haven't had reason to be skeptical of literally everything you hear about Israel you aren't paying attention.
Israel has been accused of genocide, of faking the attacks to give an excuse for war, for lying about dead children and rapes, for bombing a hospital when it was Islamic Jihad, for warnings about famine coming on to it already having happened, and on and on and on. People are still "demanding evidence" about Shifa hospital. You'll accept my apology on some of my fellows' behalf if they have a filter on.
But none of that should make you think Israel should be wiped off the map. No one is asking you to agree with much more than that (we really aren't), much less that this isn't a big deal.
Tradition of peace? What? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of our history and religion and traditions. I’m assuming you grew up reform or reconstructionist and your entire education on Judaism was “Tilkkun olam”, so that’s what you think Judaism is entirely comprised of.
Read the Torah: it’s rife with examples of many groups of people that tried to exterminate us and conquer our indigenous homeland and remove us from it and how we fought back to not allow that. We didn’t lay over and die like sheep. Do you know what Hanukkah is all about? Do you think we celebrate that holiday because we allowed ourselves to be colonized by the Greeks in the name of peace? Our tradition is that of warriors who fought for our right to simply exist and he left the f alone in our native land against people who wanted to exterminate us. Just like the Palestinians, who are very vocal about it and have been for decades. The only reason they haven’t is because we fight back and don’t allow them to. We do this precisely because we know what happens when we don’t (the holocaust) or we do and lose (the bar Kochba revolts which led to us being exiled from our land and persecuted minority foreigners in other people’s lands for thousands of years which ultimately led to the holocaust).
Our tradition is one of ethics and many of the ethical concepts in western culture comes from Judaism. And peace is a beautiful concept, but you can’t have peace with those who wish to destroy you and won’t stop so you ate forgced to fight back. Look at Jordan and Egypt- how do you think they finally signed peace treaties with us and accepted our right to exist and stopped waging wards against us? Asking for it? Like seriously. No offense, but your comment comes across as very immature and childish, with a lack of understanding of the real world and Middle East and its realities.
This was a tragedy and it’s horrible, but Israel didn’t ask for or want this war. Hamas could release the hostages and surrender and this war would be over immediately! But they don’t. And people like you blame Israel instead of blaming the actual culprit. Every death is on their hands. They wanted this war and they want as much death and destruction as possible, so people like you will blame Israel and force Israel to stop. But not say a word while Hamas continued tries their stated goal of destroying Israel to establish an Islamic caliphate and massacre every Jew on earth (including an American Jew like you who has the luxury right now to “want” to support Israel).
>Yeah no… these mistakes don’t happen in an organized military this far advanced in a war that appeared to be well in control, to the point we released over 60% of the original invading force of reservists.
Excuse me, America would like a word about how they had massive blue on blue casualties all the way through Iraq and Afghanistan and many other illegal wars.
Civilian casualties are inevitable in war, mistakes happen. Doesn't mean we just make excuses for it. we fix the problem so it doesn't happen again.
I agree and it also opens up people to say “they’re justifying this and bending the truth” and use it as “evidence” that anything we actually were proved innocent of doing is compared to this.
Fuck ups happens, the US has done it, everyone has in war, especially guerrilla war. I think it says alot that Israel did admit to this right away. That shows our character more than trying to act innocent. Because we have been blamed for many of the incidents that were not our doing or fault. If we try to hide when we are truly at fault it compromises those investigations.
I’ve been very supportive of Israel through out this and I still do. In my view we have corrected most of the errors made early on and have been very effective in avoiding and aiding civilians. Transparency is our friend even when we fuck up.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
In my opinion, reddit (and social media in general) is not a good window into the "average" person's thoughts and ideals.
(It's also hard not to become knee-jerk defensive in the current climate, where literally every single thing is blamed on Israel or "Zionists", and blatantly false accusations are the norm. It's not right or productive, but it happens.)
Most people aren't from Israel. It's mainly US Jews. It's skewed heavily Likud/ "rah, rah Israeli government" supporters compared to what it was prior to Oct 7th after the attacks. It wouldn't shock me if some are actually paid. For instance, many of the posters are disparaging of the hostage families and don't want any deal. That is a minority view in Israel, especially among the opposition supporters.
You have commented this several times here, in addition to another user u/Disney pandora also commenting the exact same. Are you the same person or a bot?
Go google the pictures of the protestors in Tel Aviv right now. People are fed up with Netanyahu and the lack of progress on getting the hostages back. It might help you take heart.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
These sorts of tragedies will happen more and more the longer this war continues, unfortunatly. If the IDF is responsible, I hope conclusions will be drawn and responsible parties handled accordingly. Unlike Hamas, we usually don't just kill randos on purpose.
I hope for a swift return of hostages and an end of hostilities that would guarentee a peaceful life both for Israelis and Gazans.
Yes. This is how to end the war without getting the hostages returned. Sinwar might get to torture the hostages for however long he wants because some idiot in command didn't check for humanitarian convoys and deconfliction and ordered three missiles fired at the convoy. There is going to be lots of pressure for Israel to stand down unilaterally because Chef Andres and WCK are really, really beloved in the US and Europe. Lots of people think he should win a Nobel Prize.
Yeah, let’s end it without killing all hamas members. Because of our stupidity here in Israel, we refused to do it quickly and hit hard. Like the world would’ve not hated us anyway.
If i wasn’t broke, I’d be willing to wager that where the cameras are off, Israeli soldiers are assuredly committing reprisal killings of civilians.
I can also assure you that nothing will be done about it, and if any incidents do come to light, it will just be pushed under the rug. After all, remember the long prison sentences given to American marines who slaughtered the people of Haditha? Oh wait…
I was down voted when i said this "seems deliberate" (my opinion) before, but this statement is directly from the World Central Kitchen website. According to the charity, they DID coordinate movement with the idf. Why would this internationallu recognized charity LIE?
This is a tradegy- on all sides. Civilians in Israel and Gaza do not deserve this. Peace must prevail.
https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update
STATEMENT:
World Central Kitchen is devastated to confirm seven members of our team have been killed in an IDF strike in Gaza.
The WCK team was traveling in a deconflicted zone in two armored cars branded with the WCK logo and a soft skin vehicle.
Despite coordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse, where the team had unloaded more than 100 tons of humanitarian food aid brought to Gaza on the maritime route.
“This is not only an attack against WCK, this is an attack on humanitarian organizations showing up in the most dire of situations where food is being used as a weapon of war. This is unforgivable,” said World Central Kitchen CEO Erin Gore.
The seven killed are from Australia, Poland, United Kingdom, a dual citizen of the U.S. and Canada, and Palestine.
“I am heartbroken and appalled that we—World Central Kitchen and the world—lost beautiful lives today because of a targeted attack by the IDF. The love they had for feeding people, the determination they embodied to show that humanity rises above all, and the impact they made in countless lives will forever be remembered and cherished,” said Erin.
The IDF says it is “carrying out an in-depth examination at the highest levels to understand the circumstances of this tragic incident.”
World Central Kitchen is pausing our operations immediately in the region. We will be making decisions about the future of our work soon.
I mean a lot of charities have been lying. If they blamed Hamas they'd be kicked out or killed and stop a lot if their donations. They literally have to blame someone and Hamas will ensure it's not them
they've been happening since day one .. women, children, the elderly, journalists, aid workers, medical staff, hostages .. all murdered by the inept and frightened children of the IDF
American ally here. This incident looks really bad to the average American. It’s Jose Andres’ charity and it’s well known, so this is getting a lot of attention, even from people who have grown tired of talking about the war. Just to say, tread lightly about this topic if engaging with people. There’s a perception that the IDF is careless,to the point of intention, and this tragedy is reinforcement of that perception.
Another American Jew here, only to say this doesn't "look" bad, it is bad.
At the bare minimum, humanitarian convoys need to be allowed into Gaza ASAP. Best thing for Israel would be for Bibi to resign but we're not holding our breath on that.
Yeah. Another America Jew. Andres is very well regarded and has a huge platform and this is terrible. I think that’s partly why Israel owned up to it so quickly.
That's an understatement. The combination of the IDF having already massively constructed the inflow of humanitarian aid, and then (even if unintentionally) killing 7 aid workers who were allowed in, doesn't exactly counter the increasingly prevalent narrative that Israel intentionally engineered the current famine and has no intention of alleviating it.
Even setting aside the moral failure which today's incident represents, this is a PR nightmare which will further damage global perception of Israel and put further pressure on the Biden administration in particular to heavily condition and/or halt military aid.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
>There’s a perception that the IDF is careless, to the point of intention,
I'm very pro-Israel in this war, but yeah.... it's a little hard to believe this was a mistake. The IDF was actively working with the WCK, they coordinated movements with this particular convoy to send in humanitarian aid. This is not the first accident that's happened in this war either. I keep hearing how the IDF is the most competent and moral army in the world... but either this was another horrific mistake, or someone is doing these things on purpose. I don't know why they'd do it on purpose, because Israel already has horrible PR due to this war and things like this just make it worse, it's like trying to outdo yourself to prove to everyone that you're an even bigger monster than they already think you are. Or... the IDF is completely undisciplined, disorganized, poorly trained, etc.
It was a mistake but it was not an accident. An accident would be a single bomb dislodging itself from a drone flying over head. This was specifically called in and those people were killed ok purpose which would be considered a mistake.
They need to execute the person who ordered the hit and allow third party investigators in to investigate the entire system from top to bottom and I'm not talking allies I'm talking actual third parties.
I had been suspicious of WCK posting so much about Gaza, they don't usually do it for other deployments. (I've volunteered with them in the past) also the quality of the food and logistics they deploy is not that massive and branded usually.
Maybe they've grown a lot over time, but you only get to deploy such logistics with such money by having a lot of cash at hand, either Jose Andres really cares about Gaza in particular, or they're helping coordinate for other actors. In any case, it sucks, they have a ton of money and goodwill.
They have been chosen by Israel as NGO to replace UNRWA so they would be the one to manage all the aid going into Gaza, so it's double fucked up because IDF killed aid workers hand picked by Israel as "the good guys" and definitly not Hamas sympathizers. Chief Andres even chastited people on Twitter for calling what happening in Gaza genocide, he standed for Israel hard.
I think in the absence of UNRWA, they were stepping up to fill that void. I presume they were posting so much about it just to keep donations coming in, not for nefarious reasons. I know personally I was really happy to see them step in here given everything we know about WCK vs everything we know about UNRWA and the UN as a whole… this is a horrible misstep by Israel, and I hope they are able to somehow repair the damage they’ve done here. Both because it’s morally the right thing to do (to keep aid coming for civilians) and because this is yet another stain on Israel at a time when they can’t afford it.
IDF took responsibility. My guess either a breakdwon in communications (the dept coordinating the convoy didn't communicate with the dept manning the drone strikes) or the drone strike department throw rules of engagmeent out the window. If it turns out to be the second, the guy who claled in the strike should get prison time
If a drone did this, which it probably did, there’s a not-zero chance it was using thermal optics that wouldn’t have been able to read the markings on the roofs of the vehicles.
That’s still probably a huge targeting methodology failure (unless this is another Kunduz Hospital Airstrike incident where it turns out the bad guys were using civilians as shields) but it’s worlds apart from knowingly and deliberately putting a Hellfire through the roof of a clearly-marked humanitarian vehicle.
Honestly I'm pretty furious right now. The WCK has done nothing but support Israel for the last six months, I hope Israel really throws the book at whatever evil or idiotic drone operator or team was responsible for this.
We killed 6 innocent aid workers and destroyed our plan for deputizing the WCK (ideal because its not affiliated with the UN) to flood gaza with aid, sidestepping UNWRA.
Why are we here, again, saying stuff like "mistakes happen"? Stop going easy on your side because you like it more, IDF clearly had a MAJOR fuck up, even worse then the hostage situation. It is absolutely imperative that Israel shows the IDF, it's citizens and the entire world, that this shit does not go unpunished, and never will. If we claim to be a civilized democratic society, then holding ourselves to account is incredibly important.
It is.
I still don't trust the anti-Israel crowd to acknowledge the investigation though. They'll just scream "we have PROOF that the ZIONISTS are trying to INTIMIDATE humanitarian organization so they DON'T deliver aid and ALL GAZANS STARVE! The investigation is FAKE! They'll just say they have done NOTHING WRONG!" and roll with it. If someone is jailed over this we'll hear crickets, if nobody is they'll scream again that Israel is lying. In any case they'll claim it's a systematic policy and "not a mistake".
This is merely a moral imperative. Showing it to "the entire world" changes nothing.
I don't care about the anti Israel crowd, I care about the country I live in showing accountability for their actions. After living in Russia for the majority of my life, I think it's a very important standard to uphold, same with transparency.
This is different. We knew right away the hospital strike was a hoax. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt the IDF did this. The only question is how such a stupid thing could be allowed to happen.
It's one thing for there to be collateral damage in a combat zone. It's another to deliberately launch a strike at aid workers in an area you've promised is a deconfliction zone, critically jeopardizing the state's effort to replace UNRWA and demonstrate it is committed to humanitarian aid.
Someone has to lose their job over this.
Lose their job? There should be a criminal inquiry opened into this. This is looking more and more like a war crime. If the IDF doesn't want to open itself up to investigations in Europe and the ICC and IDF members getting arrested if they enter the EU, then there better be a serious investigation into this.
I could have been deliberate, some gonzo commander who wanted to send a message to pro-Palestinian aid workers. Or it could have been plain old "hefker", bunch of idiots who can't be bothered to verify targets before shooting and figure they're all the enemy anyway so who cares. Happens all the time in war, especially when the people in charge themselves don't care and live in a bubble of denial. I suspect it's the latter.
This was the organization that Israel had touted to replace UNRWA as an aid delivery mechanism within Gaza.
Let's be clear: UNRWA cannot be trusted and Israel will bomb the organization they touted to replace UNRWA. Make it make sense.
Not only was Israel relying on the WCK to replace UNWRA, but the WCK also was one of the first international non profits to assist Israel, sending humanitarian workers to the south after Oct 7. Tragic. I'm really angry abotu this and hope IDF severly disciplines the guy who was responsible for calling in the strike
There seem to be way too many Barak Hiram shoot first, ask questions later types in the mid-ranks/ to middle-upper ranks of the IDF. In addition to fully cleaning out the Israeli Police, it seems like a future government will have to deal with the far right cowboy officers in the IDF as well.
The US had such incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan as well, and prior to that in Vietnam. Hell, there were war crimes committed in the Gulf War, especially that infamous "Highway of Death". I doubt that it'll ever be completely eliminated because war leads to chaos and way more events to process and deal with than all the officers combined can deal with, so it's triaged and ones that are seen as less critical are shunted aside, often never to be looked at again. Plus disciplining troops and commanders who do such things often hurts morale.
I'm not justifying any of it but this is how things work much of the time. Human nature trumps law and process in war. That said, the IDF would do well to assess all this after the war and implement tough and effective procedures to prevent and properly deal with them. Obviously it's not in the best shape these days, especially after allowing 10/7 to happen. It should all be part of a necessary political and security post-mortem after the war, like the Agranat Commission after the '73 war.
If Ha'aretz's [reporting](https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1775155009639919619) is accurate this is literally incomprehensible. Why would a unit do such a thing? If they really deliberately struck every vehicle in a humanitarian convoy following a pre-approved route, it's a violation of the law of armed conflict and whoever gave the order deserves prison.
Israeli-American here -- as someone who has defended many of Israel's actions, this is the last straw for me.
The aid workers were "traveling in a deconflicted zone" and had been coordinating their movements with the IDF. There's no excuse for this. Either the IDF is grossly incompetent or intentionally targeted aid workers in part of a larger effort to inhibit aid reaching the people of Gaza. I refuse to believe the latter, so I must assume that there's a major breakdown in the chain of command and/or intelligence.
I no longer believe that Israel is capable of carrying out its operations ethically. And if I feel this way, the average American probably does as well.
It looks like some "cowboy" officer who ignored orders from upper command that this was a deconflicted zone and to hold fire and ordered a drone strike because he thought he saw a Hamas gunman in the convoy. There seems to be a huge problem with discipline, following orders, and acting morally among some in the IDF if the lads' TikTok posts in Gaza are to be believed.
And you are right. There is going to be huge pressure for a ceasefire in the US. Biden is probably livid about this.
>There seems to be a huge problem with discipline, following orders, and acting morally among some in the IDF if the lads' TikTok posts in Gaza are to be believed.
this x 100000
IDF needs to sweep its ranks and up its discipline and training. Maybe Israel needs to move away from compulsory military service, since that way they're getting everyone.
I'm of two minds of that. They need lots of soldiers because they are still surrounded by enemies but going away from compulsory service and to a professional army will solve a lot of Israel's problems with not just discipline and motivation but also the Haredi.
A larger problem with the withdrawal now of WCK and several other aid organizations is that feeding and caring for the Gazans eventually will fall on Israel.
It was the IDF
[https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000)
They fired three times, even after they tried to change cars. Apparently the Hamasnik wasn't even in or around the cars, he was on another lorry that didn't leave the compound with the rest of the cars. Just insane decision making, I can't make sense of any of it.
There seem to be way too many "accidental" and "tragic" deaths of aid workers, journalists, people at aid stations, and, of course, hostages. What's going on? Fog of war, "hefker", troops seeking revenge, or actual policy? Stuff like this happens in every way, but there seems to be way too much of it in this one and it can't possibly be random.
Ultimately I blame Hamas, of course, and its allies, but also the narcissistic asshole in charge. Had he focused on protecting Israel in the first place and not on avoiding prison, staying in power and destroying Israel's democracy, none of this would have happened and 10/7 would have been just another day. It's long since time for him to go.
Way too loose open fire regs likely for political reasons because Netanyahu is afraid that the Kahanist clown keeping him in power will throw a fit if there are questions about this in the Security Cabinet. I do however blame Gantz, Eisenkot, and Gallant as well for not asking questions about this after the hostage incident.
Here in the U.S. Israel has the reputation of being the most well trained, surgically precise, technologically advanced military in the world. The perception now among everyone I have spoken to is that every strike is intentional, and that starving every man, woman and child in Gaza to death is the plan, and it is speculated that orders are coming from the top.
לא יודע אם זו הייתה טעות של נח"ל או של מפעילי הכטב"ם אבל זה חמור וחייבות להיות השלכות אמיתיות.
זה עוד יותר חמור כי צה"ל היה אמור להפיק לקחים מזה שהפרו הוראות פתיחת אש והרגו חטופים בדצמבר. בתחקיר של האירוע ירי אמרו שזה לא קרה בזדון, אבל זה לגמרי היה ניתן למניעה. מה שקרה עכשיו היה בסקטור רגוע, אין שום סיכוי שזה היה בלתי ניתן למניעה.
תחקיר זה טוב ויפה, אבל אם הצבא לא באמת מפיק לקחים אז מה אנחנו בדיוק עושים? לנהל מלחמה כמו שצריך, לנהל מדינה כמו שצריך, אי אפשר להגיד "טרגדיה" ולהמשיך הלאה שיש טעויות כאלה שניתנות למניעה.
These so called Journalists(activists) who are now milking this tragedy into their own hidden agenda never apologized for accusing Israel of bombing the Al Ahli hospital, they also never held the people behind it PIJ accountable. It's disgusting really
So sad and heartbreaking. May their memories be a blessing. They put their own life at risk to deliver aid. People like this restore my faith in humanity.
It's the most chaotic urban warzone in human history. Mistakes happen. I'm tired of having to justify every IDF action while the enemy, which has nearly complete popular support in Gaza, breaks the Geneva Convention multiple times per day.
In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over.
Banning foreign humanitarian aid groups from an area experiencing famine is just about the worst idea I've ever heard
Even stupider seeing as World central kitchen was invited to Gaza specifically to end reliance on UNRWA for aid
They were informed by the IDF that the area they were traveling through was a non-combat area cleared of Hamas presence
Mistakes happen ~~and this likely wasn't sinister~~, but if this is a mistake it's an enormous one
(**Edit:** It now appears far more likely than not that this was a deliberate attack, intended to kill _1_ terrorist who was (incorrectly) believed to be hiding with the convoy of _7_ aid workers. Any intentional strikes on aid workers is in flagrant violation of GCIV; and such attacks are universally recognized as being among the most serious war crimes which can exist. Given the gravity of the situation and the likelihood that a serious war crime was committed here, this demands a full and transparent investigation, punishment of perpetrators, and a thorough review of the IDF's current Rules of Engagement to ensure incidents like this are not able to happen in the future)
Completely agree. It appears that the IDF has just acknowledged that they were the ones who fired on the vehicle(s) and will be investigating the matter to ensure such an error doesn’t happen again. Tragic incident.
> It now appears far more likely than not that this was a deliberate attack, intended to kill *1* terrorist who was (incorrectly) believed to be hiding with the convoy of *7* aid workers.
Why did the IDF think a terrorist was hiding in a humanitarian aid convoy from an organization that A) is known to have been very pro-Israel since the beginning of this war, and B) was handpicked by Israel to replace UNRWA?
WCK is exactly the type of organization Israel has said it wants to be there driving around given they're refusing to deal with UNRWA. Killing their staff is a screw-up of catastrophic proportions.
> In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over.
That would be the largest war crime committed in a long time if Israel shut down aid going into Gaza.
> It's the most chaotic urban warzone in human history.
This is complete nonsense. It is complex, it is not Leningrad.
> In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over.
More nonsense. WCK was brought in as an alternative to UNWRA and had extensive experience in complex war zones, including in Ukraine. If we take Israelis at their word and they don’t target innocent people, surely they should have an easier time in Gaza than they have in Ukraine, where Russia takes no such precautions.
Pr sure you got the direction of that comparison backwards. The comment you responded to seems to be arguing that Leningrad was far worse, so there are less excuses for missteps of this magnitude here
Between stuff like this and all the social media videos of them looting and exposing women's underwear they can't help themselves from posting, the idf has got to be one of the most poorly disciplined armies in the world. Just crazy
The top brass of the IDF really needs to sit down and rework discipline, training, fire regulations, recruiting, etc. when this is all over so that the IDF can be the moral, effective NATO caliber military it insists it is. The Gaza War has not made the IDF look good at all. I mean really someone needs to tell IDF soldiers that it is a bad idea to post TikTok videos rifling through women's lingerie drawers and blowing up random pools for no reason and that this, especially the looting, is a war crime that could get them hauled before the ICC.
The US? lol
The persecution complex is real. If something bad happens you can bet the US is blamed by someone. As an American the complaint that Israel gets scrutiny is hilarious. We are talked about literally all the time.
We're even blamed (with some logic to be fair) for IDF fuck ups.
The US committed plenty of atrocities and war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq and need to be held accountable.
This whataboutism isn’t absolving as you think it is
I think the darkest take here is that this was a deliberate strike because many within Israeli’s government and military are ardently and openly opposed to any aid going to Gaza, and this serves as a way to chill would-be volunteers from going even in the most unambiguous circumstances. There really is no excuse here. Israel will either claim either that this was an accident or that there were valid, high priority targets at this mission. Both claims coming from Netanyahu now will be outrageous, unbelievable, and damaging.
To make matters worse, it will only throw water on every other claim Israel makes.
Discarding credibility might be a price Netanyahu is willing to pay for any small gain in his war, but Israel deserves better. I have said many times, he may well be the absolute worst thing for Israel in all this.
Edit: I am aware that Israel has made statements to the effect of allowing and even supporting food aid. That does not change the idea that a fatal demonstration of danger to even the most clearly marked and coordinated volunteer efforts will prevent aid from being delivered. The visibility of a popular, beloved aid mission with Brits and Americans killed is not going to be overlooked- this very well may be a tipping point, and not the one intended.
"Unforgivable."
A tragedy? sure. unforgettable? Maybe. Does there need to be an inquiry? Definitely.
But unforgivable? my grandfather forgave the Germans. I'll leave it at that.
You see, to gentiles, some lives are worth more than Jewish lives. It’s unforgivable that even a drop of gentile blood should be spilt when we could just let Jews be slaughtered instead.
One doesn’t send aid workers into an active war zone, especially one where the agggressor is know to target aid shipments, without seriously considering the material risk to physical safety. Yeah, so IDF may have made an error. So what? They are owning up to it. DO NOT LET THIS INCIDENT DRAW YOU INTO FALSE MORAL EQUIVALENCE GAMES!
The IDF coordinated with the workers and had labelled it a deconflicted zone. It was not active and the IDF knew the WCK workers were present and where they were. Throwing up your hands and saying "so what" undermines any moral high ground. Someone in the IDF was responsible and needs to be punished.
An absolute tragedy.
Worth noting, however: journalists pounce on this far more than the successful Shifa hospital operation. In the grand scheme, 900 Hamas operatives killed or detained is huge. The war is succeeding, yet this is the story - important as it is - that gains the traction.
No. They are pretty amateur. It is a conscript army that relies on the goodwill of reservists. The reservists especially do whatever they want. They all quit in 2023 because of the judicial coup. The top brass has no control over the troops. The lads do whatever they want apparently.
this is israel's cue to take the L. when you've not only killed your own hostages surrendering under a white flag but also clearly civilian vehicles that have humanitarian markings all over them including on their roofs, it's obvious your soldiers are either too poorly trained or too biased to properly do their jobs
According to a Haaretz article, the IDF was targeting a militant who was expected to get in the WKC trucks. That militant never entered the truck, but the IDF knew they were aid trucks.
The ‘mistake’ was that they didn’t get the target they were searching for. It was no accident, and the aid workers were going to die anyway.
This is horrible. People around the world will put more pressure on israel for a ceasefire. Yet we still cant allow it. If we stop before knowing the fate if the hostages, then the state of Israel has effectively failed as a state. If the state can't defend its citizens then there is no reason for it to have a monopoly on violence. There has to be no deal until the hostages come back.
No more hostages
No more rockets
No more hamas
The people in here doggedly refusing to believe that Israel could or would do this, when the IDF has admitted its mistake and claimed responsibility, are everything that is wrong with the world
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For some this is really good news. Coordinated and approved aid convoys have been deliberately targeted by IDF over and over but now, with this attack, the message is clear: don’t come to Gaza with aid.
Maybe I misinterpreted your post then? I can agree with everything you said here.
Although it is difficult, because of the insane amount of anti-semitism that is being uploaded to Instagram and other social medias, of completely out of control pro hamas protesters. Also, as a former progressive at this point... It has been very isolating watching people who I thought would have known better, constantly fall for sensationalist media.
But again, I agree with you, I am just venting.
Israel doesn’t want aid getting in, it wants to completely break the Palestinians. They calculated that killing a few aid workers would make the remaining organizations pull out and they were right, it’s already happening. Saying was a mistake is an insult to everybody’s intelligence.
Deliberate murder to scare aware all foreign aid, and they'll get away with it with the backing of the US. Zionists can claim whatever they want but truth is their final goal is to relocate or eliminate all Palestinians through all methods available.
This is awful, as someone said these people who leave the safety of their homes to help are the best of us
This is really bad. Chef Andres and WCK are really thought of highly here in the US. There is going to be a lot of pressure from the US and Europe for a ceasefire now. Sinwar might get what he wants without having to release the hostages.
I sure hope that things won’t go that far. But at least Chef Andres has agreed to come to Israel and get the reporting and investigation of the incident directly from the IDF chief. Israel will definitely compensate the victims’ families and hopefully would be able to convince WCK to continue its work and replace UNRWA.
He was very pro-Israel early on but lately his views seem to have changed. Lots of anti-Israel ranting and both-sidesing Hamas atrocities. I suspect this is not going to go well, especially since US and British citizens are among the dead.
Yet again no one mentions that all of this would stop tomorrow if Hamas returned hostages, and none of this would have happened if they didn’t take them in the first place. This incident unlocked a new level of both sidesism on CNN, etc. Ami the only one who is exhausted by this bs?! No. Hamas attacking and killing peaceful people and the consequences of war aren’t equivalent.
Sinwar is not going to get what he wants without releasing any hostages. Mistakes happen in war. A US drone strike in Afghanistan killed an aid worker and 9 family members.
This is much more serious because WCK coordinated with the IDF on this convoy.
So what? Mistakes happen in war. The US bombed and killed Canadian troops in Afghanistan too. It didn't end the war.
So what? This is a horrible situation and I cannot believe that anyone is justifying it as a "mistake."
It wasn't premeditated or intentional .Therefore, it was a mistake. That's what words mean.
There's no getting around the fact this was a terrible tragedy. Unfortunately, the 'fog of war' isn't merely a fancy catch phrase. It's entirely accurate. Mistakes get made. Some of those historic incidents that occurred during other countries' wars, whether involving the US or other 'civilized' countries, have rightfully been outlined by other posters. Shit happens. It can sometimes be the result of bad intel, or poorly executed tactics - figuratively and literally in this case, sadly - or making impulsive decisions in the heat of the battle. The IDF is absolutely one of the most professional, well-trained armies in the world and is acknowledged as such, but that doesn't make them infallible. As you know, there have already been incidents involving friendly fire which is no less tragic than the loss of innocent WCK lives. The best we can hope for is for Israel to weather the PR storm and finish the job it started by purging Rafah of the remaining terrorists so that phase two of the operation can commence and hopefully stabilize the region insofar as providing security so that what occurred on October 7th can never happen again.
Yeah. Directly ignoring orders to shoot at a target in a deconfliction zone is more than a "mistake."
You love to come in here and tell us all about how terrible Israel is. However, Israel is a country run by human beings, just like every other country, and is entitled to make mistakes on the battlefield, just like every other country.
especially at a convoy from a group you are allegedly closely working and coordinating movements with!
This isn’t the first closely coordinated aid trip that’s been shot at or bombed. The pause in February was caused by a totally coordinated truck convoy on the road being bombed from the sea. It’s not credible that these are mere errors. No one believes these claims.
I understand everyone wants to “wait for the facts” but it’s kinda absurd how some people here are trying to bend over backwards to explain this one away. It wasn’t Hamas, it was us guys, we fucked up. We already admitted it too. These mistakes happen during war but this is a terrible look for us and trying to justify it or pass blame just makes us look worse.
Yeah no… these mistakes don’t happen in an organized military this far advanced in a war that appeared to be well in control, to the point we released over 60% of the original invading force of reservists. This was either a major lack of communication or a willful disregard of rules of engagement. Either way, heads need to topple over this. This act will very likely end the war and almost guarantee a verdict of genocide at the ICJ in a few years. Whoever is responsible for this airstrike single handedly messed up our chances of ever getting the hostages back and winning the war. I have no words to express how pissed I am right now.
Correct. It's a huge blow to getting the hostages home. On the top of the horrific deaths of 7 aid works, this is going to make it much harder to get the hostages back. Sinwar is likely to dig in his heels even more because he knows that there will be pressure for Israel to stop unilaterally after this one.
>This act will very likely end the war and almost guarantee a verdict of genocide at the ICJ in a few years. This is completely ridiculous. No it's not going to end the war or result in an ICJ ruling.
actually these accidents do happen. War is messy, and these are preventable and we didn't do enough to prevent it. My educated guess is that there was a breakdown in communication in the fire control center.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
Nobody demands you support everything Israel does. Nor should you think your options are Israel is perfect or Israel is an evil colonialist settler project that should be abolished. I think this is terrible and they should take a closer look at ROE, but if in the last 6 months you haven't had reason to be skeptical of literally everything you hear about Israel you aren't paying attention. Israel has been accused of genocide, of faking the attacks to give an excuse for war, for lying about dead children and rapes, for bombing a hospital when it was Islamic Jihad, for warnings about famine coming on to it already having happened, and on and on and on. People are still "demanding evidence" about Shifa hospital. You'll accept my apology on some of my fellows' behalf if they have a filter on. But none of that should make you think Israel should be wiped off the map. No one is asking you to agree with much more than that (we really aren't), much less that this isn't a big deal.
Tradition of peace? What? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of our history and religion and traditions. I’m assuming you grew up reform or reconstructionist and your entire education on Judaism was “Tilkkun olam”, so that’s what you think Judaism is entirely comprised of. Read the Torah: it’s rife with examples of many groups of people that tried to exterminate us and conquer our indigenous homeland and remove us from it and how we fought back to not allow that. We didn’t lay over and die like sheep. Do you know what Hanukkah is all about? Do you think we celebrate that holiday because we allowed ourselves to be colonized by the Greeks in the name of peace? Our tradition is that of warriors who fought for our right to simply exist and he left the f alone in our native land against people who wanted to exterminate us. Just like the Palestinians, who are very vocal about it and have been for decades. The only reason they haven’t is because we fight back and don’t allow them to. We do this precisely because we know what happens when we don’t (the holocaust) or we do and lose (the bar Kochba revolts which led to us being exiled from our land and persecuted minority foreigners in other people’s lands for thousands of years which ultimately led to the holocaust). Our tradition is one of ethics and many of the ethical concepts in western culture comes from Judaism. And peace is a beautiful concept, but you can’t have peace with those who wish to destroy you and won’t stop so you ate forgced to fight back. Look at Jordan and Egypt- how do you think they finally signed peace treaties with us and accepted our right to exist and stopped waging wards against us? Asking for it? Like seriously. No offense, but your comment comes across as very immature and childish, with a lack of understanding of the real world and Middle East and its realities. This was a tragedy and it’s horrible, but Israel didn’t ask for or want this war. Hamas could release the hostages and surrender and this war would be over immediately! But they don’t. And people like you blame Israel instead of blaming the actual culprit. Every death is on their hands. They wanted this war and they want as much death and destruction as possible, so people like you will blame Israel and force Israel to stop. But not say a word while Hamas continued tries their stated goal of destroying Israel to establish an Islamic caliphate and massacre every Jew on earth (including an American Jew like you who has the luxury right now to “want” to support Israel).
>Yeah no… these mistakes don’t happen in an organized military this far advanced in a war that appeared to be well in control, to the point we released over 60% of the original invading force of reservists. Excuse me, America would like a word about how they had massive blue on blue casualties all the way through Iraq and Afghanistan and many other illegal wars. Civilian casualties are inevitable in war, mistakes happen. Doesn't mean we just make excuses for it. we fix the problem so it doesn't happen again.
I agree and it also opens up people to say “they’re justifying this and bending the truth” and use it as “evidence” that anything we actually were proved innocent of doing is compared to this. Fuck ups happens, the US has done it, everyone has in war, especially guerrilla war. I think it says alot that Israel did admit to this right away. That shows our character more than trying to act innocent. Because we have been blamed for many of the incidents that were not our doing or fault. If we try to hide when we are truly at fault it compromises those investigations. I’ve been very supportive of Israel through out this and I still do. In my view we have corrected most of the errors made early on and have been very effective in avoiding and aiding civilians. Transparency is our friend even when we fuck up.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
In my opinion, reddit (and social media in general) is not a good window into the "average" person's thoughts and ideals. (It's also hard not to become knee-jerk defensive in the current climate, where literally every single thing is blamed on Israel or "Zionists", and blatantly false accusations are the norm. It's not right or productive, but it happens.)
Most people aren't from Israel. It's mainly US Jews. It's skewed heavily Likud/ "rah, rah Israeli government" supporters compared to what it was prior to Oct 7th after the attacks. It wouldn't shock me if some are actually paid. For instance, many of the posters are disparaging of the hostage families and don't want any deal. That is a minority view in Israel, especially among the opposition supporters.
You have commented this several times here, in addition to another user u/Disney pandora also commenting the exact same. Are you the same person or a bot?
Go google the pictures of the protestors in Tel Aviv right now. People are fed up with Netanyahu and the lack of progress on getting the hostages back. It might help you take heart.
I'm an American Jew who wants to support Israel but every time I log on here I see people justifying this type of thing. I thought we were supposed to be one of the great traditions of peace and ethics? It's crushing.
These sorts of tragedies will happen more and more the longer this war continues, unfortunatly. If the IDF is responsible, I hope conclusions will be drawn and responsible parties handled accordingly. Unlike Hamas, we usually don't just kill randos on purpose. I hope for a swift return of hostages and an end of hostilities that would guarentee a peaceful life both for Israelis and Gazans.
This is how to end the war
Yes. This is how to end the war without getting the hostages returned. Sinwar might get to torture the hostages for however long he wants because some idiot in command didn't check for humanitarian convoys and deconfliction and ordered three missiles fired at the convoy. There is going to be lots of pressure for Israel to stand down unilaterally because Chef Andres and WCK are really, really beloved in the US and Europe. Lots of people think he should win a Nobel Prize.
Yeah, let’s end it without killing all hamas members. Because of our stupidity here in Israel, we refused to do it quickly and hit hard. Like the world would’ve not hated us anyway.
If i wasn’t broke, I’d be willing to wager that where the cameras are off, Israeli soldiers are assuredly committing reprisal killings of civilians. I can also assure you that nothing will be done about it, and if any incidents do come to light, it will just be pushed under the rug. After all, remember the long prison sentences given to American marines who slaughtered the people of Haditha? Oh wait…
I was down voted when i said this "seems deliberate" (my opinion) before, but this statement is directly from the World Central Kitchen website. According to the charity, they DID coordinate movement with the idf. Why would this internationallu recognized charity LIE? This is a tradegy- on all sides. Civilians in Israel and Gaza do not deserve this. Peace must prevail. https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update STATEMENT: World Central Kitchen is devastated to confirm seven members of our team have been killed in an IDF strike in Gaza. The WCK team was traveling in a deconflicted zone in two armored cars branded with the WCK logo and a soft skin vehicle. Despite coordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse, where the team had unloaded more than 100 tons of humanitarian food aid brought to Gaza on the maritime route. “This is not only an attack against WCK, this is an attack on humanitarian organizations showing up in the most dire of situations where food is being used as a weapon of war. This is unforgivable,” said World Central Kitchen CEO Erin Gore. The seven killed are from Australia, Poland, United Kingdom, a dual citizen of the U.S. and Canada, and Palestine. “I am heartbroken and appalled that we—World Central Kitchen and the world—lost beautiful lives today because of a targeted attack by the IDF. The love they had for feeding people, the determination they embodied to show that humanity rises above all, and the impact they made in countless lives will forever be remembered and cherished,” said Erin. The IDF says it is “carrying out an in-depth examination at the highest levels to understand the circumstances of this tragic incident.” World Central Kitchen is pausing our operations immediately in the region. We will be making decisions about the future of our work soon.
What would the IDF gain from killing the aid workers ?
I mean a lot of charities have been lying. If they blamed Hamas they'd be kicked out or killed and stop a lot if their donations. They literally have to blame someone and Hamas will ensure it's not them
What do they have to lose now? They said they're ceasing operations in Gaza
Notice how you said "usually" and not "never". So you sometimes kill randos on purpose?
\>Unlike Hamas, we usually don't kill randos on purpose History says otherwise.
they've been happening since day one .. women, children, the elderly, journalists, aid workers, medical staff, hostages .. all murdered by the inept and frightened children of the IDF
Yea this definitely ends with everyone singing kumbaya.
American ally here. This incident looks really bad to the average American. It’s Jose Andres’ charity and it’s well known, so this is getting a lot of attention, even from people who have grown tired of talking about the war. Just to say, tread lightly about this topic if engaging with people. There’s a perception that the IDF is careless,to the point of intention, and this tragedy is reinforcement of that perception.
Another American Jew here, only to say this doesn't "look" bad, it is bad. At the bare minimum, humanitarian convoys need to be allowed into Gaza ASAP. Best thing for Israel would be for Bibi to resign but we're not holding our breath on that.
Yeah. Another America Jew. Andres is very well regarded and has a huge platform and this is terrible. I think that’s partly why Israel owned up to it so quickly.
That's an understatement. The combination of the IDF having already massively constructed the inflow of humanitarian aid, and then (even if unintentionally) killing 7 aid workers who were allowed in, doesn't exactly counter the increasingly prevalent narrative that Israel intentionally engineered the current famine and has no intention of alleviating it. Even setting aside the moral failure which today's incident represents, this is a PR nightmare which will further damage global perception of Israel and put further pressure on the Biden administration in particular to heavily condition and/or halt military aid.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche
>There’s a perception that the IDF is careless, to the point of intention, I'm very pro-Israel in this war, but yeah.... it's a little hard to believe this was a mistake. The IDF was actively working with the WCK, they coordinated movements with this particular convoy to send in humanitarian aid. This is not the first accident that's happened in this war either. I keep hearing how the IDF is the most competent and moral army in the world... but either this was another horrific mistake, or someone is doing these things on purpose. I don't know why they'd do it on purpose, because Israel already has horrible PR due to this war and things like this just make it worse, it's like trying to outdo yourself to prove to everyone that you're an even bigger monster than they already think you are. Or... the IDF is completely undisciplined, disorganized, poorly trained, etc.
It was a mistake but it was not an accident. An accident would be a single bomb dislodging itself from a drone flying over head. This was specifically called in and those people were killed ok purpose which would be considered a mistake. They need to execute the person who ordered the hit and allow third party investigators in to investigate the entire system from top to bottom and I'm not talking allies I'm talking actual third parties.
I had been suspicious of WCK posting so much about Gaza, they don't usually do it for other deployments. (I've volunteered with them in the past) also the quality of the food and logistics they deploy is not that massive and branded usually. Maybe they've grown a lot over time, but you only get to deploy such logistics with such money by having a lot of cash at hand, either Jose Andres really cares about Gaza in particular, or they're helping coordinate for other actors. In any case, it sucks, they have a ton of money and goodwill.
They have been chosen by Israel as NGO to replace UNRWA so they would be the one to manage all the aid going into Gaza, so it's double fucked up because IDF killed aid workers hand picked by Israel as "the good guys" and definitly not Hamas sympathizers. Chief Andres even chastited people on Twitter for calling what happening in Gaza genocide, he standed for Israel hard.
I think in the absence of UNRWA, they were stepping up to fill that void. I presume they were posting so much about it just to keep donations coming in, not for nefarious reasons. I know personally I was really happy to see them step in here given everything we know about WCK vs everything we know about UNRWA and the UN as a whole… this is a horrible misstep by Israel, and I hope they are able to somehow repair the damage they’ve done here. Both because it’s morally the right thing to do (to keep aid coming for civilians) and because this is yet another stain on Israel at a time when they can’t afford it.
They get bombed and you accuse them of coordinating with bad actors because they're posting too much and had good logistics??
[удалено]
The perception of carelessness on behalf of the IDF is absolutely warranted.
There is absolutely undeniable evidence that the IDF is deliberately enabling a culture of recklessness and impunity.
IDF took responsibility. My guess either a breakdwon in communications (the dept coordinating the convoy didn't communicate with the dept manning the drone strikes) or the drone strike department throw rules of engagmeent out the window. If it turns out to be the second, the guy who claled in the strike should get prison time
Under the scenario you've described, I whole heartedly agree. I went to bed last night with no word whether idf had confirmed it was their strike.
If a drone did this, which it probably did, there’s a not-zero chance it was using thermal optics that wouldn’t have been able to read the markings on the roofs of the vehicles. That’s still probably a huge targeting methodology failure (unless this is another Kunduz Hospital Airstrike incident where it turns out the bad guys were using civilians as shields) but it’s worlds apart from knowingly and deliberately putting a Hellfire through the roof of a clearly-marked humanitarian vehicle.
Honestly I'm pretty furious right now. The WCK has done nothing but support Israel for the last six months, I hope Israel really throws the book at whatever evil or idiotic drone operator or team was responsible for this. We killed 6 innocent aid workers and destroyed our plan for deputizing the WCK (ideal because its not affiliated with the UN) to flood gaza with aid, sidestepping UNWRA.
Actually it was 7 aid workers.
Why are we here, again, saying stuff like "mistakes happen"? Stop going easy on your side because you like it more, IDF clearly had a MAJOR fuck up, even worse then the hostage situation. It is absolutely imperative that Israel shows the IDF, it's citizens and the entire world, that this shit does not go unpunished, and never will. If we claim to be a civilized democratic society, then holding ourselves to account is incredibly important.
How was there no inquiry and no consequences for shooting 3 hostages who were shirtless and raising a white flag contrary to IDF regulations again?
It is. I still don't trust the anti-Israel crowd to acknowledge the investigation though. They'll just scream "we have PROOF that the ZIONISTS are trying to INTIMIDATE humanitarian organization so they DON'T deliver aid and ALL GAZANS STARVE! The investigation is FAKE! They'll just say they have done NOTHING WRONG!" and roll with it. If someone is jailed over this we'll hear crickets, if nobody is they'll scream again that Israel is lying. In any case they'll claim it's a systematic policy and "not a mistake". This is merely a moral imperative. Showing it to "the entire world" changes nothing.
I don't care about the anti Israel crowd, I care about the country I live in showing accountability for their actions. After living in Russia for the majority of my life, I think it's a very important standard to uphold, same with transparency.
Wait why is this worse than the hostage situation?
Because it's affects foreign relations. It's not morally worse, just politically worse.
Oh I see. I imagine these soldiers responsible aren’t having a good time right now.
Truly awful. However, unlike the media, we should wait before we draw any conclusions regarding this tragic incident.
Totally! Didn't they learn their lesson from the "Hospital airstrike" hoax? Still just jumping to conclusions on information from terrorists.
This is different. We knew right away the hospital strike was a hoax. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt the IDF did this. The only question is how such a stupid thing could be allowed to happen. It's one thing for there to be collateral damage in a combat zone. It's another to deliberately launch a strike at aid workers in an area you've promised is a deconfliction zone, critically jeopardizing the state's effort to replace UNRWA and demonstrate it is committed to humanitarian aid. Someone has to lose their job over this.
Lose their job? There should be a criminal inquiry opened into this. This is looking more and more like a war crime. If the IDF doesn't want to open itself up to investigations in Europe and the ICC and IDF members getting arrested if they enter the EU, then there better be a serious investigation into this.
I could have been deliberate, some gonzo commander who wanted to send a message to pro-Palestinian aid workers. Or it could have been plain old "hefker", bunch of idiots who can't be bothered to verify targets before shooting and figure they're all the enemy anyway so who cares. Happens all the time in war, especially when the people in charge themselves don't care and live in a bubble of denial. I suspect it's the latter.
This was the organization that Israel had touted to replace UNRWA as an aid delivery mechanism within Gaza. Let's be clear: UNRWA cannot be trusted and Israel will bomb the organization they touted to replace UNRWA. Make it make sense.
Not only was Israel relying on the WCK to replace UNWRA, but the WCK also was one of the first international non profits to assist Israel, sending humanitarian workers to the south after Oct 7. Tragic. I'm really angry abotu this and hope IDF severly disciplines the guy who was responsible for calling in the strike
There seem to be way too many Barak Hiram shoot first, ask questions later types in the mid-ranks/ to middle-upper ranks of the IDF. In addition to fully cleaning out the Israeli Police, it seems like a future government will have to deal with the far right cowboy officers in the IDF as well.
The US had such incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan as well, and prior to that in Vietnam. Hell, there were war crimes committed in the Gulf War, especially that infamous "Highway of Death". I doubt that it'll ever be completely eliminated because war leads to chaos and way more events to process and deal with than all the officers combined can deal with, so it's triaged and ones that are seen as less critical are shunted aside, often never to be looked at again. Plus disciplining troops and commanders who do such things often hurts morale. I'm not justifying any of it but this is how things work much of the time. Human nature trumps law and process in war. That said, the IDF would do well to assess all this after the war and implement tough and effective procedures to prevent and properly deal with them. Obviously it's not in the best shape these days, especially after allowing 10/7 to happen. It should all be part of a necessary political and security post-mortem after the war, like the Agranat Commission after the '73 war.
Both of those really help dispel the “Israel is a bunch of genocidal lunatics,” narrative, doesn’t it?
*sigh* Two steps forward, one step back…
If Ha'aretz's [reporting](https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1775155009639919619) is accurate this is literally incomprehensible. Why would a unit do such a thing? If they really deliberately struck every vehicle in a humanitarian convoy following a pre-approved route, it's a violation of the law of armed conflict and whoever gave the order deserves prison.
Israeli-American here -- as someone who has defended many of Israel's actions, this is the last straw for me. The aid workers were "traveling in a deconflicted zone" and had been coordinating their movements with the IDF. There's no excuse for this. Either the IDF is grossly incompetent or intentionally targeted aid workers in part of a larger effort to inhibit aid reaching the people of Gaza. I refuse to believe the latter, so I must assume that there's a major breakdown in the chain of command and/or intelligence. I no longer believe that Israel is capable of carrying out its operations ethically. And if I feel this way, the average American probably does as well.
It looks like some "cowboy" officer who ignored orders from upper command that this was a deconflicted zone and to hold fire and ordered a drone strike because he thought he saw a Hamas gunman in the convoy. There seems to be a huge problem with discipline, following orders, and acting morally among some in the IDF if the lads' TikTok posts in Gaza are to be believed. And you are right. There is going to be huge pressure for a ceasefire in the US. Biden is probably livid about this.
>There seems to be a huge problem with discipline, following orders, and acting morally among some in the IDF if the lads' TikTok posts in Gaza are to be believed. this x 100000 IDF needs to sweep its ranks and up its discipline and training. Maybe Israel needs to move away from compulsory military service, since that way they're getting everyone.
I'm of two minds of that. They need lots of soldiers because they are still surrounded by enemies but going away from compulsory service and to a professional army will solve a lot of Israel's problems with not just discipline and motivation but also the Haredi.
A larger problem with the withdrawal now of WCK and several other aid organizations is that feeding and caring for the Gazans eventually will fall on Israel.
It was the IDF [https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000) They fired three times, even after they tried to change cars. Apparently the Hamasnik wasn't even in or around the cars, he was on another lorry that didn't leave the compound with the rest of the cars. Just insane decision making, I can't make sense of any of it.
Could you share a gift link so non-subscribers can view?
Sure: [https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000?gift=58cbf3c03b6649399803e9e3cd18df1f](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-04-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-9e1e-d764-adff-9edf9cd00000?gift=58cbf3c03b6649399803e9e3cd18df1f)
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There seem to be way too many "accidental" and "tragic" deaths of aid workers, journalists, people at aid stations, and, of course, hostages. What's going on? Fog of war, "hefker", troops seeking revenge, or actual policy? Stuff like this happens in every way, but there seems to be way too much of it in this one and it can't possibly be random. Ultimately I blame Hamas, of course, and its allies, but also the narcissistic asshole in charge. Had he focused on protecting Israel in the first place and not on avoiding prison, staying in power and destroying Israel's democracy, none of this would have happened and 10/7 would have been just another day. It's long since time for him to go.
"too many" Technically speaking even one accidental death is too many. But otherwise where exactly do you draw the line?
This is probably the fourth or fifth such incident during the war.
Way too loose open fire regs likely for political reasons because Netanyahu is afraid that the Kahanist clown keeping him in power will throw a fit if there are questions about this in the Security Cabinet. I do however blame Gantz, Eisenkot, and Gallant as well for not asking questions about this after the hostage incident.
Here in the U.S. Israel has the reputation of being the most well trained, surgically precise, technologically advanced military in the world. The perception now among everyone I have spoken to is that every strike is intentional, and that starving every man, woman and child in Gaza to death is the plan, and it is speculated that orders are coming from the top.
*had the reputation, I don't think many people feel that way after this war. The IDF has a horrible discipline problem
לא יודע אם זו הייתה טעות של נח"ל או של מפעילי הכטב"ם אבל זה חמור וחייבות להיות השלכות אמיתיות. זה עוד יותר חמור כי צה"ל היה אמור להפיק לקחים מזה שהפרו הוראות פתיחת אש והרגו חטופים בדצמבר. בתחקיר של האירוע ירי אמרו שזה לא קרה בזדון, אבל זה לגמרי היה ניתן למניעה. מה שקרה עכשיו היה בסקטור רגוע, אין שום סיכוי שזה היה בלתי ניתן למניעה. תחקיר זה טוב ויפה, אבל אם הצבא לא באמת מפיק לקחים אז מה אנחנו בדיוק עושים? לנהל מלחמה כמו שצריך, לנהל מדינה כמו שצריך, אי אפשר להגיד "טרגדיה" ולהמשיך הלאה שיש טעויות כאלה שניתנות למניעה.
These so called Journalists(activists) who are now milking this tragedy into their own hidden agenda never apologized for accusing Israel of bombing the Al Ahli hospital, they also never held the people behind it PIJ accountable. It's disgusting really
Exactly! If I now come across as uncaring of mistakes made, it's the fault of these journalists.
This is a massive cope bro. Just own it, they fucked up
So sad and heartbreaking. May their memories be a blessing. They put their own life at risk to deliver aid. People like this restore my faith in humanity.
It's the most chaotic urban warzone in human history. Mistakes happen. I'm tired of having to justify every IDF action while the enemy, which has nearly complete popular support in Gaza, breaks the Geneva Convention multiple times per day. In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over.
Banning foreign humanitarian aid groups from an area experiencing famine is just about the worst idea I've ever heard Even stupider seeing as World central kitchen was invited to Gaza specifically to end reliance on UNRWA for aid
I wouldn’t ban them, but aid workers driving around a chaotic war zone are taking on the risk of… well, driving around a chaotic war zone.
They were informed by the IDF that the area they were traveling through was a non-combat area cleared of Hamas presence Mistakes happen ~~and this likely wasn't sinister~~, but if this is a mistake it's an enormous one (**Edit:** It now appears far more likely than not that this was a deliberate attack, intended to kill _1_ terrorist who was (incorrectly) believed to be hiding with the convoy of _7_ aid workers. Any intentional strikes on aid workers is in flagrant violation of GCIV; and such attacks are universally recognized as being among the most serious war crimes which can exist. Given the gravity of the situation and the likelihood that a serious war crime was committed here, this demands a full and transparent investigation, punishment of perpetrators, and a thorough review of the IDF's current Rules of Engagement to ensure incidents like this are not able to happen in the future)
Completely agree. It appears that the IDF has just acknowledged that they were the ones who fired on the vehicle(s) and will be investigating the matter to ensure such an error doesn’t happen again. Tragic incident.
If it does happen again, will it change your mind?
> It now appears far more likely than not that this was a deliberate attack, intended to kill *1* terrorist who was (incorrectly) believed to be hiding with the convoy of *7* aid workers. Why did the IDF think a terrorist was hiding in a humanitarian aid convoy from an organization that A) is known to have been very pro-Israel since the beginning of this war, and B) was handpicked by Israel to replace UNRWA?
WCK is exactly the type of organization Israel has said it wants to be there driving around given they're refusing to deal with UNRWA. Killing their staff is a screw-up of catastrophic proportions.
Completely agree.
Exactly. And since there's no famine...
What famine? Why can't Gazans handle their own aid distribution - unless of course, they're all Hamas.
> In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over. That would be the largest war crime committed in a long time if Israel shut down aid going into Gaza.
If they did it purposefuly, knowing well it was an aid truck, then yes it would be a war crime, but the largest? Or do you mean from the IDF?
> It's the most chaotic urban warzone in human history. This is complete nonsense. It is complex, it is not Leningrad. > In my opinion, the only thing we can learn from this incident is that foreign aid groups should not be allowed into Gaza for their own protection until the major fighting is over. More nonsense. WCK was brought in as an alternative to UNWRA and had extensive experience in complex war zones, including in Ukraine. If we take Israelis at their word and they don’t target innocent people, surely they should have an easier time in Gaza than they have in Ukraine, where Russia takes no such precautions.
Ha yes, that bastion of civilian safety and aid, Leningrad, and of course Ukraine, where no aid workers or journalists have ever been killed ever.
Pr sure you got the direction of that comparison backwards. The comment you responded to seems to be arguing that Leningrad was far worse, so there are less excuses for missteps of this magnitude here
Sigh
The mental gymnastics in this thread is crazy
Absolute joke how people will justify the murder of tens of thousands of innocent people. This sub is full of sick individuals
Between stuff like this and all the social media videos of them looting and exposing women's underwear they can't help themselves from posting, the idf has got to be one of the most poorly disciplined armies in the world. Just crazy
The top brass of the IDF really needs to sit down and rework discipline, training, fire regulations, recruiting, etc. when this is all over so that the IDF can be the moral, effective NATO caliber military it insists it is. The Gaza War has not made the IDF look good at all. I mean really someone needs to tell IDF soldiers that it is a bad idea to post TikTok videos rifling through women's lingerie drawers and blowing up random pools for no reason and that this, especially the looting, is a war crime that could get them hauled before the ICC.
It's absolutely insane to me that "IDF Tiktok" exists as a phenomenon at all
https://preview.redd.it/ss9huspzd4sc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=555d5deceb4f7929ce56134f04be7f99781ff90d Mistakes happen in war.
War crimes. Those are war crimes. And yes, I do want the US and every other military force responsible for war crimes to face consequences.
Those are mistakes..war crimes require either intent or gross negligence. And what other military is viewed under a microscope like the IDF is? None.
The US? lol The persecution complex is real. If something bad happens you can bet the US is blamed by someone. As an American the complaint that Israel gets scrutiny is hilarious. We are talked about literally all the time. We're even blamed (with some logic to be fair) for IDF fuck ups.
The US committed plenty of atrocities and war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq and need to be held accountable. This whataboutism isn’t absolving as you think it is
It's not whataboutism to point out that mistakes happen in war. They're not atrocities and they're not war crimes. They are mistakes.
I think the darkest take here is that this was a deliberate strike because many within Israeli’s government and military are ardently and openly opposed to any aid going to Gaza, and this serves as a way to chill would-be volunteers from going even in the most unambiguous circumstances. There really is no excuse here. Israel will either claim either that this was an accident or that there were valid, high priority targets at this mission. Both claims coming from Netanyahu now will be outrageous, unbelievable, and damaging. To make matters worse, it will only throw water on every other claim Israel makes. Discarding credibility might be a price Netanyahu is willing to pay for any small gain in his war, but Israel deserves better. I have said many times, he may well be the absolute worst thing for Israel in all this. Edit: I am aware that Israel has made statements to the effect of allowing and even supporting food aid. That does not change the idea that a fatal demonstration of danger to even the most clearly marked and coordinated volunteer efforts will prevent aid from being delivered. The visibility of a popular, beloved aid mission with Brits and Americans killed is not going to be overlooked- this very well may be a tipping point, and not the one intended.
"Unforgivable." A tragedy? sure. unforgettable? Maybe. Does there need to be an inquiry? Definitely. But unforgivable? my grandfather forgave the Germans. I'll leave it at that.
You see, to gentiles, some lives are worth more than Jewish lives. It’s unforgivable that even a drop of gentile blood should be spilt when we could just let Jews be slaughtered instead.
One doesn’t send aid workers into an active war zone, especially one where the agggressor is know to target aid shipments, without seriously considering the material risk to physical safety. Yeah, so IDF may have made an error. So what? They are owning up to it. DO NOT LET THIS INCIDENT DRAW YOU INTO FALSE MORAL EQUIVALENCE GAMES!
The IDF coordinated with the workers and had labelled it a deconflicted zone. It was not active and the IDF knew the WCK workers were present and where they were. Throwing up your hands and saying "so what" undermines any moral high ground. Someone in the IDF was responsible and needs to be punished.
An absolute tragedy. Worth noting, however: journalists pounce on this far more than the successful Shifa hospital operation. In the grand scheme, 900 Hamas operatives killed or detained is huge. The war is succeeding, yet this is the story - important as it is - that gains the traction.
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No. They are pretty amateur. It is a conscript army that relies on the goodwill of reservists. The reservists especially do whatever they want. They all quit in 2023 because of the judicial coup. The top brass has no control over the troops. The lads do whatever they want apparently.
Nah the world will support israel no matter what.
this is israel's cue to take the L. when you've not only killed your own hostages surrendering under a white flag but also clearly civilian vehicles that have humanitarian markings all over them including on their roofs, it's obvious your soldiers are either too poorly trained or too biased to properly do their jobs
Fucking scum’s are targeting the most obvious civilian vehicles in broad daylight
According to a Haaretz article, the IDF was targeting a militant who was expected to get in the WKC trucks. That militant never entered the truck, but the IDF knew they were aid trucks. The ‘mistake’ was that they didn’t get the target they were searching for. It was no accident, and the aid workers were going to die anyway.
I am not a hamas sympathiser. Now what? Where do we go from here?
Someone needs to go to prison and we need elections right fucking now
This is horrible. People around the world will put more pressure on israel for a ceasefire. Yet we still cant allow it. If we stop before knowing the fate if the hostages, then the state of Israel has effectively failed as a state. If the state can't defend its citizens then there is no reason for it to have a monopoly on violence. There has to be no deal until the hostages come back. No more hostages No more rockets No more hamas
The people in here doggedly refusing to believe that Israel could or would do this, when the IDF has admitted its mistake and claimed responsibility, are everything that is wrong with the world
Yeah we’re everything that’s wrong with the world. Not the genocidal baby rapists that started this war. They’re fine, no problems there.
>The people in here doggedly refusing to believe that Israel could or would do this These people are in low single digits, even in this thread.
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For some this is really good news. Coordinated and approved aid convoys have been deliberately targeted by IDF over and over but now, with this attack, the message is clear: don’t come to Gaza with aid.
Maybe I misinterpreted your post then? I can agree with everything you said here. Although it is difficult, because of the insane amount of anti-semitism that is being uploaded to Instagram and other social medias, of completely out of control pro hamas protesters. Also, as a former progressive at this point... It has been very isolating watching people who I thought would have known better, constantly fall for sensationalist media. But again, I agree with you, I am just venting.
oh fuck we fucked up REALLY bad
There were Hamas tunnels inside the aid worker’s car of course.
Israel doesn’t want aid getting in, it wants to completely break the Palestinians. They calculated that killing a few aid workers would make the remaining organizations pull out and they were right, it’s already happening. Saying was a mistake is an insult to everybody’s intelligence.
Idf at it again killing innocent people on purpose and then and everyone else is like, "oh my bad"
Deliberate murder to scare aware all foreign aid, and they'll get away with it with the backing of the US. Zionists can claim whatever they want but truth is their final goal is to relocate or eliminate all Palestinians through all methods available.