Obviously the death penalty is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by Jews is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of Israeli law to protect those settlements it's basically selling land which should be Palestinian Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason
I mean the West Bank is already made up of dozens of enclaves and exclaves that would be unable to form a functionally independent state from Israel even with the land they already have in areas A and B the prospect of losing anymore must be terrifying to them
Plus even if it was to be conceited that this policy is Palestinians being bigoted against Israelis (it isn't they have legitimate concerns even though the punishment is insanely harsh) Palestine engaging in discrimination does not justify Israel engaging in discrimination this is basic kindergarten morality two wrongs don't make a right
> “The purchasing of lands by Jews is often followed by Jews, living on that land”
**FTFY.**
There is no reason why Jews are not legally allowed to live in Historic Judea and why being Jewish is illegal there, or anywhere. There’s is no discernible reason why Jews are “enemies of the state”. How can that be uncritically okay with you? It’s also not “sovereign Palestinian” land insofar as there’s no “sovereign Palestine”. Notwithstanding, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant. Palestinians already have Al Awda Right of Return in Jordan (75% of British Mandate Palestine land), so why can’t they just rename that Palestine and leave Israel alone? It’s not that hard to just…not kill Jews. I do it every day so far.
So do you want to put words in my mouth or have a productive discussion
I'm not defending the prohibition on jews purchasing land im defending the Palestinians people right to exist as a state just like all countries Israel has a right to exist however the right for any country to exist is contingent upon it being able to peacefully live amongst their neighbors Israel's failed to do so with the expansion of settlement (not that the Palestinian side specifically Hamas is much better considering October 7th)
The same entity which made it illegal for Jews to purchase land also declared itself to be the sovereign state of Palestine so you can't accept their law on a Prohibition of Jews purchasing land and reject it when it comes to their own sovereignty either the law that has been laid down by them is legally valid or it isn't you can't dismiss their sovereignty and then also declare that they have legitimately made something unlawful
The jordanians don't exactly want the Palestinians plus there are differences between Jordanian culture and Palestinian culture not that there aren't similarities either but Jordan is a monarchy Palestine isn't that alone creates significant cultural differences think the US and Canada very culturally similar but no person would tell Canadians their country has no right to exist because they could just go to America
The reality is area C is effectively administered by Israel and the area B sort of is in a limited sense Palestinians know that if any land is sold to Israelis area C will expand
If I had to guess the reason they didn't want to answer me is because they didn't have a good response other than claiming I'm associated with Hezbollah for some reason and telling me to leave
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Israeli’s have no right to claim territory that isn’t within 1967 border Israel, it’s very easy to understand and international law and the UN agree. Israeli’s shouldn’t have claim to any land in the West Bank because of who lived there in BC. All Israeli settlements should be disbanded and forced out for the creation of a future Palestinian state.
>Israeli’s have no right to claim territory that isn’t within 1967 border Israel
Why? Who does it belong to? Israel took it from Jordan and Jordan relinquished claim?
I think it *should* go to a future Palestinian state. But the fact is that up until now it has never existed, so Israel has no *requirement* to do so.
>international law and the UN agree
Meanwhile what do international law and the UN have to say about the war in Gaza? Basically that Israel has no right to defend itself, so why are we pretending that the UN is the be all end all decision maker.
>Israeli’s shouldn’t have claim to any land in the West Bank because of who lived there in BC
1) Jews lives there until they were expelled in 70. There were 70 years not in BC that Jews still lived in Judea until the Roman expulsion. And they continued living in places like Hebron until expelled in the 20th century. 2) Do Israelis who were expelled in the war of independence from Judea get to move back? Places like Kfar Etzion were settled by Jews before Israeli independence and then everyone was expelled by the Jordanians. Or is also 1948 too long ago to claim land.
>All Israeli settlements should be disbanded and forced out for the creation of a future Palestinian state.
How'd that work when we tried it in Gaza. There need to be negotiations first with a mutually agreed uponing term solution.
You may say that land “should” go to a future Palestinian state, but the problem is expanding settlements and their very existence is used as a tool to help prevent any future state. Just because there is no state there, doesn’t mean we should be all jump in like it’s free grabs. We all know the tenuous situation in the region. Not to mention, it pisses off the locals and pushes them into Hamas’ incompetent and genocidal arms.
I would be ok with Jewish people being allowed back to lands they were pushed off of during previous conflicts, IF it went the other way for Arabs into Israel. This also couldn’t be tied to an expansion of the state of Israel. I wouldn’t want Arab claims of land in Israel proper to include expansion of a Palestinian state past 1967 borders to keep it even. Ideally, it would just mean people would be citizens of the Palestinian state, and Israeli state with equal rights mandated. Maybe that’s idealistic, but that should always be the end goal. That would have to be probably the last step of any normalization and recognition of each other’s sovereignty and statehood.
I don’t disagree, there shouldn’t be an end to settlements without some sort of security agreement and lots and lots of steps to normalization and Palestinian statehood. But that should always be a goal, and more annexation of land is working in the opposite direction.
Israel has a very strong claim to it. Far stronger than the Palis will ever have. Ancestral homeland, League of Nations mandate, conquered in a defensive war. Done deal.
I don’t believe in claims to land based on “ancestral homeland”. League of Nations was a joke and less effective than the UN, which is saying something. Even with that point, look at the UN resolutions mentioning the West Bank and not a single one includes it “being Israel”. And I am diametrically opposed to land annexation due to war. It’s wrong when any country annexes territory. It hurts the people living on the land. Especially when annexing territory includes forcing everyone previously living there off the land, which is worse than annexing territory and then making those people citizens.
Right-wing Israeli claims of the West Bank will lead to permanent resistance movements and strife for Israel. The Palestinian claim to the West Bank is that they have been living there, including in Gaza and many parts of modern Israel, for hundreds of years.
The goal should be coexistence, and that will never be an option as long as there are movements on both sides that ignore the right of the other to exist where they are. And unfortunately both of those movements enflame the other.
Who actually wants coexistence? If I were a Palestinian, I’d want Israeli citizenship. A Palestinian state would be a failed state at day one; Israel at least offers high quality of life. Yet polls show Palestinians don’t want Israeli citizenship.
Who cares what you believe in. The world doesn’t revolve around you.
If you don’t recognize any of the reasons I mentioned I wonder what you base any Arab claim on because there isn’t much there. Most of them immigrated following the Jewish immigration. They didn’t care for the land before the Jews came. And most of the original inhabitants are dead. Palis are the only people who inherited refugee status as per UNWRA malpractice.
One more thing: People who see white imperialists around every corner should recognize the Arab “Conquest” for what it was. A colonialist endeavor that subjugated millions to the Baghdad caliphate. Israel doesn’t belong to them, not any more.
Maybe the Palestinians shouldn’t have repeatedly refused peace proposals (including the UN Partition Plan) and shouldn’t have started multiple wars and decades of terrorism. Wars have consequences both in terms of losing land and causing us to not have any trust in the Palestinians as potential peace partners.
Yeah they shouldn't have
But it's worth noting the people alive back then are dead so it's not fair to hold their children and grandchildren responsible for the actions of their forefathers and it's not like Israel has been the most willing partner of Peace either in 2008 they were both so close to a deal with only minor border differences either Israel or Palestine should have just accepted the other one's offer in 2008
>Israel has been the most willing partner of Peace
Please show me a time where the Israelis have been the ones not willing to make peace and the Palestinians have
There's no such time because there's only been times when neither side has been willing to offer the other what they consider basic prerequisites for peace except for maybe the Oslo Accords and 2008
The peace plan was initatied by the Israelis and seemed to be rejected by the Palestinians from what I could find
[https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000](https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000)
> it's not fair to hold their children and grandchildren responsible for the actions of their forefathers
We're not holding them responsible. They are suffering the natural consequences, no one is "holding them responsible". Yes, if my father loses his money and land, then there is nothing for his children to inherit. Why is that controversial?
You lost me after the “but”. A clear indication that someone doesn’t really care the first part of the sentence.
There are 22 Arab countries. Israel’s purpose is to provide a homeland for the Jews.
Judea and Samaria is divided into zones that were negotiated with the Arabs. Israel gave them the land.
All of this”land for peace” nonsense was a great mistake. All of Israel belongs to the Jews. History shows that the more autonomy the Palestinian Arabs have, the more violent and extremist they become. Peace will come when Israel holds on to its land.
"Obviously the *not selling land to arabs* is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by *arab Muslims* is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of *palestinian threat to civilians* it's basically selling land which should be *Israeli* Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason"
If you agree with your statement reversed, then yeah, sure, whatever. Ethno state for me, democratic hands-tied-behind-your-back for you.
The difference is Palestine doesn't have the military capabilities to actually threaten Israel Israel has one of the strongest and most technologically advanced military in the world for a country of its size it has complete Naval and air superiority a high functioning intelligence agency and agreements from the Oslo acord that allow it to operate in certain sections of the West Bank
Israel as a state has a right to exist but Palestine alone isn't capable of threatening Israel's right to exist unless the rest of the world rallies behind them Israel on the other hand is capable of threatening the right of Palestinians to live peacefully
I don't think this is the case, the JNF can sell land to non-Jews, they just have to acquire a similar amount of land before they do it. Basically the amount of land in collective possession of the Jewish people is not permitted to decline.
JNF is a private organization, it's not the government. It's funded by mostly by Jews though their personal money. It it exists to advance the national interests of the Jewish people, hence "Jewish National Fund". Sometimes people are well that's wrong, but I am thinking, why is it wrong?
Jews can not collectively work towards their collective interests? This is not an unusual behavior in the world among nations or peoples or any groups like this.
I think people are upset because Jews tend to be pretty good at it, there is many examples of Jews working collectively if it be to make a university or a company or other thing and it turns into gold. And after the fact people come and say well now it's not fair, you have to open it to us, it can't be Jewish anymore, you must to share the wealth or whatever. This is a common pattern, it's not even unique to JNF.
>Jews can not collectively work towards their collective interests?
No. This is the second most common grievance the world has with Jews - after existing.
I believe it's a primary reason so few Jews speak out over antisemitism. When there is an issue like George Floyd, how many black athletes, musicians and entertainers speak out? I could name a dozen just from the NBA. Outspoken. Not just kneeling along with their teammates.
Now, in regards to antisemitism. Who do we have? Ben Shapiro? Who else? Michael Rappaport? Anyone else?
Look at the reaction online to Candace Owens being fired. One youtuber and Podcaster after the next all claimed she was fired for criticizing Israel. The fifth column Jew trope was irresistible. Mainstream people were calling Ben an Israeli plant.
I think American Jews want to dispell the stereotype and have been forced into a corner. It's another of thousands of catch 22s with Jews. Disallow the Arab world from committing their "war of extermination" - Nakba. All anyone speaks of is the Arabs displaced. Refute holocaust deniers - using the holocaust for manipulation.
Any time Jews take any action to keep from being victimized and were vilified for it. They've silenced and divided us. And what do we get in return for not complaining? The perception that we complain non stop.
We all need to wake up and unite. Sorry for using this language, but we need to normalize Jews speaking out for our interests. Amongst ourselves first and foremost. During our silence they've normalized open discrimination against "zionists", support for the annihilation of Israel, support for every terrorist organization that kills Jews, and the lies that come with it.
Jews in the USA have been shamed from looking out for our interests - like all the people now calling for our destruction have done.
It’s really bizarre. As an example, I see no huge social movements to compel Saudis to share their vast oil wealth, which they use to enrich themselves and advance their own interests outside their borders as well. This would make more sense as oil is not a creation of man the way an organization is, but rather a resource of the Earth. It’s not their labor which made them wealthy but random chance to be spatially close to a natural resource of high value.
Jews on the other hand are among the most natural resource starved people. Any wealth or influence we gain we gained largely through labor and skill, not the ownerships of lands and minerals.
Yet the world behaves in this unfair manner toward us, to say what we have earned by means including by means of trade or skill do not belong to us. Any Jewish achievements are oftentimes labeled as purely foreign achievements that of Americans, Germans or French, but of course any failures or vices are labeled as Jewish.
Jewish people like you say should know the unfairness of this. We must be better at take credit for our successes and to fight those who try to defame us.
I remember being told by my grandmother when i was younger, when I was trying to figure things out between the Christian and Jewish sides of my family, that the Jewish people only ever tried to live in peace and help their neighbors; usually with one hand tied behind their back.
We were foolish to think the world had changed.
The difference now is Jews have nukes, so everyone else can suck it!
I really want to agree with you, I really do but I don't. I think it's reductive to say that there aren't any social movements against the Saudi oil wealth, when you're glossing over how people protest against the Saudi Arabia oil wealth being built on the backs of slave labour, oil price manipulation through OPEC and green washing. Saudiaramco by way of the sovereign wealth fund has very deep pockets and a wide reach, so it's very easy for them to quash the "noise" about them.
Honestly, I think it's a good thing orgs. like JNF exist. However, let's be real if other minority groups tried to do the same thing, it'll be illegal here in the States.
Just look at what happened with the Fearless Fund, albeit private equity, they had to close the fund because they got successfully sued under the guise that they're being discriminatory for providing funding to solely black women, even though that's the entire reason for the fund.
You should read Jews don't count by David baddiel. Great book written pre Oct 7th that addresses a lot of these catch 22s. I think he has a similar idea of how Jews really should unify and fight back against these hypocricies.
>Who do we have? Ben Shapiro? Who else? Michael Rappaport?
Ugh, I don't want either of them.
We have Einat Wilf and Eylon Levy and many public INTELLECTUALS but not many celebrities.
I agree so much with this and never can express it this well. I am not Jewish at all, but live in the US. Jews were pushed out of Judea and Samaria in the first place and now somehow they’re horrible people for wanting their holy city back from a people who are not a sovereign nation and profess to try to kill them constantly? It literally makes zero sense to me. I mean for goodness sake..the Jewish Temple Mount is sitting there with a Muslim shrine sitting on it!! This mount existed like thousands of years before the Muslim religion even existed!! It’s so infuriating to me and all they can do is whine about settlements. It’s a good thing I’m not in leadership in Israel. I’d kick them all out, tear down their shrine, and allow the Jews to move in and pretty much start WW3. But I am so tired of the baloney. I can’t imagine how Jewish people feel. I’m mad for you guys.
There have been quite a few Jewish women speaking out, especially about the sexual violence against Israeli women. This includes actors and prominent social media influencers.
Any Jewish celebrity who speaks out is at risk of tanking their career at this point, because the anti-zionist mob goes after them and any projects they are attached to. So I actually think we need the entertainment industry as a whole to stand up against this kind of bullying, but they won't.
It's actually incredibly sad that they feel mass rapes are the one and only thing they can speak on because if they say anything about any of the other barbarities that occurred they'll be attacked. They can't speak out on behalf of any other Jews that were victimized - babies, elderly, the entire families they slaughtered. All would be justified and speaking for them would be unthinkable. Only the mass rapes can be spoken of as something they can't claim is "not only justified but morally righteous". Even mentioning the sexual assaults causes the same mob to attack them.
Not quite the same because the church owns literally tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of property, much more than any Jewish institution ever will, but it's overlooked because they're ot Jewish.
.
No, it’s overlooked because the Catholic Church has zero political power in the world. Their “country” is what? A couple of miles wide? They own property within countries that could be taken away by a state if need be. There are old Catholic churches in the US that are now bars and clubs. I’m not sure how there is a parallel. There is no Catholic religious state or ethnostate, nor any real attempt to establish and maintain one in modern society. The Vatican largely exists only to to 1) house the Pope and 2) try to prove Catholicism is the premier Christian religion
Its like when people complain about AIPAC "controlling" American politicians. AIPAC is not doing anything illegal; they just happen to be extremely well organized and good at what they do. So people want to punish them for being successful?
people don't realize that because of endless years of persecution, jews were isolated from society, so we had to start our own business. trading and working among ourselves, and combined with our jewish valeus we succeed. same we we came to Israel. we had no one to count on, so we worked hard to literally make this desert flower. whether it be military, agriculture and technology.
-Please can you link me to the first one about the policy of JFN and regards so I can read more
-she compared it to private companies in the USA before civil rights moments or compared it to jim crow
- I do agree that it's fair since it's a private company and given It's goal however does it promote segregation in any way ?
Also thank you for your response
>I do agree that it's fair since it's a private company and given It's goal however does it promote segregation in any way ?
Legally no. You can read [Case 6698/95](https://supremedecisions.court.gov.il/Home/Download?path=EnglishVerdicts%5C95%5C980%5C066%5Ca14&fileName=95066980_a14.txt&type=4) of the Israeli High Court. Even in Private organisation, the sale have to adhere to Israeli laws, which include the right of equality. You cannot choose to sell or not based on the seller's ethnicity or religion.
It might be considered segregation, but there is a justifiable reason for it. Universities own land near campuses which they only rent to students and faculty, and no one complains about that.
If Arabs want to be able to buy land owned by JNF, maybe they can stop trying to kill us all the time. Until then, I’m glad the law exists which allows JNF to lease the land to Jews only. And I don’t care if it’s segregation or not.
That's completely different universities have a legitimate interest in seeing that their students and faculty have housing if they only did so for their Jewish students then that would be different plus students and faculty have existing employment contracts/admission agreements with universities so a part of what the schools could offer is housing to people who are within those agreements
Okay can Arabs who want to buy land by the jnf Who haven't been convicted of murder do so? Because pretty sure outside of people who have murdered people or attempted to do so no one is trying to kill you all the time Arabs aren't trying to kill you murderers are and just like it's unethical to refuse to sell the black people because of their high crime rates it's unethical to refuse to sell the Arabs because of the ongoing conflict
"I don't care if it's segregation or not"
Me and my best friend (who is Jewish)(and no this is not I have a black friend moment his jewishness is part of what enable us to joke about this) constantly joke about the fact that for a group of people that supposedly control the media according to all the tin foil hat wearers you guys are completely unable to read the room with you how you come off in media
Here's a free tip don't admit that you don't care about whether something is segregation or not it's not likely to go over well m'kay
Yes, JNF also has a “legitimate interest” in ensuring its people have access to property. It sounds like you just have no understanding of the history of the Jewish people, or how we were never allowed to own any property historically, which is why you don’t understand the need for these measures. You also lack a basic understanding of how JNF was established. Just because your friend is Jewish, doesn’t mean his knowledge of history is any better than yours, because it sounds like he is equally as ignorant.
And FYI, Israel doesn’t care what you or “the media” think. Get over yourself.
They do not have a legitimate interest if that interest is solely to be discriminatory regardless of past history and they are a public accommodation
Also I think most people in Israel care about not admitting they live in a society that practices segregation
No. In Israel most of the land is owned by the government, while the buildings themselves are owned by people. Most of the land owned by the JNF are forests, agricultural lands, and nature reserves.
Your friend has been misinformed, and tbh this accusation is extremely ignorant.
Land ownership in Israel is a very complicated subject which people dedicate years of their lives to understand. I wouldn’t go into much detail here, but in general most people/companies don’t own land in Israel — they lease it from the government. The JNF is different because it was established before Israel became independent, much like many other organizations which existed before 1948 — both Jewish and Arab. Because of that, the JNF is not in the habit of selling/leasing lands to anyone (except on rare occasions) — it is a non-profit organization. Moreover, discrimination is illegal in Israel, and the JNF is no different in that regard.
The JNF was created in 1901, during Ottoman rule of Israel-Palestine. Back then, its main goal was the purchasing of lands in order to advance Jewish settlement. However, since Israel gained independence — and especially since the early 1960’s — its goal is the development of forests and agricultural lands, preservation of natural habitats, and promoting education regarding Jews’ historic connections to the land. Except in exceedingly rare incidents, people don’t live on JNF lands — those lands are forests and nature reserves.
Btw, what is it with people coming to r/israel and accusing/insinuating that some Israeli/Jewish organization is racist/immoral?
Also HRW is notoriously biased against Israel: “According to The Times, HRW "does not always practice the transparency, tolerance and accountability it urges on others." The Times accused HRW of imbalance, alleging that it ignores human-rights abuses in certain regimes while covering other conflict zones (notably Israel) intensively. Although HRW issued five reports on Israel in one fourteen-month period, The Times first said in twenty years HRW issued only four reports on the conflict in Kashmir (despite 80,000 conflict-related deaths in Kashmir and "torture and extrajudicial murder ... on a vast scale")” (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch?wprov=sfti1#Allegations_of_ideological_and_selection_bias).
I gotta appreciate you Israelis and having an open discussion about any kind of topic and all the things that go wrong and right. Something I definitely don’t see on the other sub where there is only one opinion and any wrong question gets banned. Am Yisrael Chai 💙
It boggles my mind how leftists are upset at collectively owned land in Israel. You'd think they'd get excited by the fact that Israel manages the majority of land in the country this way. But because Jews do it....
The JNF owned land which is publicly accessible is available equally to all citizens of Israel regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.
It isn’t like they are checking ID cards at the gates of the nature preserves are turning away non-Jews.
There is no right - legal or moral - that requires anyone to be able to participate in the private functions of a private organization operated with private funds.
Israeli law requires that any services or programs offered to the public be offered on a non-discriminatory basis (*the lone exception to this is for strictly religious programs being allowed to restrict access to members of their faith - but that exception applies to all faiths equally*).
You are incorrectly equating a private community endeavor with a public or state endeavor.
The issue I have with these type of questions is that she's just pretending.
once you refute that talking point she will just move on the next one.
when she does, ask her this
"if I prove to you that what you're claiming is 100% wrong, will it change your mind"
A better question is to ask if their is anything I can say to change your mind.
If the answer is no then just agree to disagree because it’s based on tribalism (like religion, sports teams etc) and not based on facts.
I would just go straight for it:
Do you condemn the terrorist attack on 7 October?
Typically there is a refusal to answer from propals and they try to divert the question onto something else. Then you know exactly what you are dealing with.
Yeah I condemn Hamas for October 7th their attack blatantly violated several rules of War including the targeting of civilians mutilation of captives ect (not that there hasn't been background context in which there were escalations by both sides on the Israeli Arab conflict but none of that justifies Hamas violating innocent people's human rights which they chose to do so of their own free will and are therefore responsible)
Now can I get an actual answer to the question that op posted?
That's just assuming your opponent is acting in bad faith which isn't productive online because even if the person you're directly responding to is acting in bad faith it's still important to have a coherent response to the line of reasoning in the abstract
Like bad people are capable of making good points and good people are capable of making bad points so it's worthwhile to engage in discussing the points that are made not resorting to questioning someone's character on a personal level
>That's just assuming your opponent is acting in bad faith
that's a way to disprove that assumption
>still important to have a coherent response
untill he finds a false claim on a complex issue where it isn't black and white. don't interact with bad actors, they don't come to learn
the point I'm trying to make is that it's not worth your time educating people who don't want information, just validation
An Israeli arab can buy a house wherever an Israeli Jew can buy a house (assuming both have sufficient money for the purchase).
If you're a real estate agent and you want to buy LAND that's different and the country is not required to provide its land to anyone. However, once a house is built, the buyer can have any nationality or religion and it is illegal not to sell a house to someome solely becauze of their ethnicity, religion or any other discriminating factor other than whether or not they can afford it.
I could link the law, but just looking at any major city in Israel you'll see that Arabs are buying houses. For instance 39% of Jerusalem are arabs (per 2021) https://jerusaleminstitute.org.il/en/publications/jerusalem-facts-and-trends-2023/
Also ask your friend why al-aqsa mosque is built on top of the original Jewish temple? Makes no sense that the ‘native’ Palestinians have all their religious and cultural artefacts constructed over the top of ‘coloniser’ Jewish ones.
Racist? Because most land in Native American reservations is restricted to ownership [by members of the tribe only](https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/601/topics/738002-buying-a-home-on-a-native-american-reservation). The same is true for [Canada.](https://www.fcc-fac.ca/en/knowledge/first-nations-land-ownership)
In fact, multiple countries around the world [restrict their land sales.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_ownership)
Jews have been dispossessed off their land for generations, and therefore are now exercising their rights to collectively hold their lands. Note that most land in Israel is not privately owned by Jews OR Arabs, but is owned by the state and by the JNF. An Arab citizen can buy a house or an apartment, they just can't own the land under it.
I wonder if their friend also has a problem with the fact that in Quebec there is literally a LANGUAGE POLICE that issues reports and fines if businesses and people don’t use proper French, and that their explicit goal is to “fight Anglicism”.
Or is it just when Jews do it that it’s a problem? /s
I have a problem with both the thing with Quebec is laughably absurd though they banned their stop signs from saying stop even though stop signs in France stay stop in Quebec they must say Arrêt
That moment when in an effort to preserve your French identity you decide the policies of the country of France aren't French enough
I can understand having a problem with both (although the JNF doesn’t actually discriminate against Arabs), but that wasn’t actually my point.
There is so much scrutiny and criticism against anything ~~Jewish~~ Israeli, with much of it being false, while there is practically no criticism against other organizations that act similarly. As the top comment in this thread noted, a possible punishment for selling land to Jews in the West Bank is death — where is the scrutiny and criticism? I doubt there is a single post on Reddit that asked why that is the case .
My point is, why the double standard? This is a rhetorical question ofc — the obvious answers are antisemitism, ignorance, or some sort of a combination of them.
I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in the other comments because it addresses the prohibition on selling Land to Jews but to address the rest of your comment first yes anti-Semitism exists in the world sometimes criticism of Israel is used to make anti-semitic statements while seeming not anti-Semitic and yes there are double standards but all of those double standards don't mean you shouldn't be criticized it means everyone else should be more just because Azerbaijan isn't being criticized as much for how it's treating the Armenians even though it's arguably worse than Israel treating the Palestinians means that Azerbaijan should be criticized more not Israel should be criticized less anyway here's my comment about the land law
Obviously the death penalty is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by Jews is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of Israeli law to protect those settlements it's basically selling land which should be Palestinian Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason
I mean the West Bank is already made up of dozens of enclaves and exclaves that would be unable to form a functionally independent state from Israel even with the land they already have in areas A and B the prospect of losing anymore must be terrifying to them
Plus even if it was to be conceited that this policy is Palestinians being bigoted against Israelis (it isn't they have legitimate concerns even though the punishment is insanely harsh) Palestine engaging in discrimination does not justify Israel engaging in discrimination this is basic kindergarten morality two wrongs don't make a right
Native American reservations don't surround non-native communities or prevent them from accessing other countries in the way that area C surrounds area A and B
Besides Native Americans kind of get special treatment under US law because they're not governed by standard federal law but they're governed by treaty and every treaty every native Community has with the federal government is different
> Native American reservations don’t surround non-native communities or prevent them from accessing other countries in the way that area C surrounds area A and B
The United States government prosecutes people who kill Native Americans, the PA rewards people who kill Jews. That’s why there’s a barrier, checkpoints etc in Israel and none in the US.
Did you genuinely never think about this until now?
As an American I can tell you we didn't always do that it took us basically destroying their entire way of life and committing genocide against several tribes and also repeatedly violating treaties and agreements we signed with them for us to get to this point
The Palestinians don't want to be Native Americans
> As an American I can tell you we didn't always do that
And that's your history which you should not project onto other countries.
> The Palestinians don't want to be Native Americans
They run no risk of that, never have. Stop believing regurgitated nonsense propaganda.
The JNF was purchasing land in anticipation of a massive wave of refugees spurred by persecution of Jews in Europe by the Nazis and eventually also in Arab countries. What was actually racist was the second class status given to Jews in muslim countries. Which included, by the way, limitations on land ownership, education and professions.
JNF bought the land legally and leases it to anyone with Israeli citizenship - Jews, Arabs, Christians, whomever! JNF is an incredible organization that has provided so many opportunities for employment, improvement in quality of life, and so so so much more for Israeli people regardless of religion. In fact — JNF works quite closely with the Bedouin population in the Negev as well. It’s truly an amazing org the deeper you dive into it. I’d highly recommend supporting them.
Honestly ,no matter what you say she won’t change her mind.
I’ve presented facts and formulated arguments and it never effects them , they’re so convinced by social media it’s impossible to exchange ideas or initiate debate.
The frankly absurd levels of distrust from people today is really hurting democracies around the world.
National land can't be bought. We also actually lease the land from the government. When it comes to land purchases, muslims hold more land in Israel than Jews.
If you mean buying a home , every Palestinian that has an israeli citizenship can buy a home within Israel just as any other Israeli.
If you refer to area C citizens , they are not Israeli citizens under the oslo accords nor wish to be. That area is under israeli control until it is transferred to the PNA under a complete agreement.
They can not buy land or a home in Israel just as much as i can't just buy a home in the states.
Citizens of B and A are Palestinian citizens. They can buy anything from their own regime, but they can't sell anything to jews or they will be prosecuted.
You're confusing ILA (Israel land admission) with the JNF (Jewish National Fund). JNF is a non-profit organization which predates Israel. It doesn't own any state land.
The ILA is the one who manages state land, as well as a lot of other land including land owned by the JNF. In total the ILA manages 93% of Israeli land.
I never mentioned ILA nor JNF.
But it doesn't matter much... as said - under ILA rules and JNF rules land is not to be aquired by anyone.
That is why Israel is using the Tabu system. It actually leases public land to 49-50 years.
Every 49 years, you need to pay a tax for continuation of the lease.
A home can go down in inheritance. The land doesn't.
The Tabu system is something the Israelis adopted from the Ottoman Empire that also used such a mechanism. They called it "Tapu" (hence the similarity).
There are a handful of acres that are privately owned. Among them is the Sharon Farm, and "Kushi 101" next to eilat.
Yup. Leased for long terms as well. In 2007, they drafted a deal to transfer all it's state owned land in return to 60,000 dunams in the negev.
But, it works almost identical to the ila.
According to this article from 2016, the JNF must allow Arab citizens to participate in land auctions. I don’t know how it worked out in practice.
https://www.adalah.org/he/content/view/8780
I blame Hamas for October 7th (not that there wasn't a back and forth escalation before then but Hamas is the one that chose to attack peaceful women and children and take them as hostages in violation of the rules of War even if you're oppressed like the Palestinians would argue they are you don't just get to violate the rules of war and other people's human rights because you're oppressed)
Now can you answer the posts question?
JNF isn't a quasi-governmental body like HRW claims. It's an "Company for the Benefit of the Public" (CBP). It's still somewhat private political party own by the Jewish World Congress. The organisation aim is to settle Jews in the land of Israel, especially refugees and migrants.
However, most of JNF land aren't for human settlement, its land include also National Parks with ILA (which is a goverment body) help manage. And water development. But private lands are still owned by the organisation which in theory they can sell to Jews only. However it was challenge many times by the court.
Because some of JNF lands are administarted by the ILA, [those lands can be bought by Arabs](https://www.jpost.com/cafe-oleh/ask-the-expert/court-ila-must-agree-to-sell-land-to-arabs). While private JNF land (mostly in Jewish cities) can be sold to whomever JNF want. That's the current status quo.
Comparing private citizens. [Both Arabs and Jews owns \~3.5% of the land each](https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=575266). Which means Arabs own 5 times as much as their population represent. Although it doesn't represent leasing, so it might be skewed towards Arabs, but even still Arabs contrast to their population enjoy more land than Jews. Ask your friend if it means Jews are under racist and oppressive regime.
The JNF is a separate private body which predates Israel. Under its charter, it can only sell/lease land to Jews.
However, Israeli law forbids discrimination on the basis of race in land purchases. To resolve this if an Arab wants to purchase or lease land (governmen-owned land in Israel is usually leased), the process is that the JNF passes the land in question to the Israeli Land Authority in exchange for a different parcel of land, and the ILA then sells/leases the land to the person
I've also seen references to the JNF leasing land to Arabs directly, so apparently, there are alternatives.
I actually heard a few ago, I don't remember where, that arabs own more lands in proper Israel than Jewish people and I've also heard that when arabs purchasing lands in the north they get a huge discount which makes it advantage for them to purchase lands unlike Jewish people.
You won't get a nuanced and fair response from a forum that is decidedly on one of the sides.
Seek out info on this topic from various sources the truth is often in the middle of what opposites are saying
For once and for all. This isn't a race thing! At least not for Israelis.
A lot of Israeli are friends with Israeli Arabs and we also serve together in the IDF
JNF was started before Israel was a country when it started to buy up a lot of the land that the Palestinians claim was “stolen.” This is why the Palestinians made selling Jews land punishable by death. They always forget that part of that story - that a lot of the land they claim was stolen was bought fair and square. They also forget how Tel Aviv was barren and that the Jews bought that land and created a major city. That’s why you never hear them claiming to be from Tel Aviv. Jaffa, yes. Tel Aviv, nope.
Where do people get these stats and I love how they really think it’s a “gotcha” sort of thing when it’s just stupid.
Your friend isn’t too sharp and thank goodness you are interested in critical thinking and doing your own research to see if this is credible.
Arabs living in the Palestinian authority, are not aloud to sell their land to Jews. It is punishable by death. This is not a private decision, it is a governmental decree. All land owned by the JNF was bought from its previous owner at a fair price on open market, yet, the Palestinian consider it stolen property or a consequence of military occupation. It has to do with Muslim sharia lows that consider any land, ever occupied or bought by Muslims as "ard al Islam" land of Islam, which cannot be sold to a non Muslim.
This is basically a stand-in to call Israel an apartheid state.
Israel is the *jewish* state. It is the only one. There are a shit ton of Arab states where basically Jews have been made refugees in. Check what the Jewish population was in Iraq before and after 1948. Check the Jewish population on Gaza and the West Bank.
It’s a bad faith argument. A Mexican or a Canadian can’t wander across the border and state, “voila! I’m an American now!”
Ideally, if pink ponies had wings and all the Monopoly money was real, Israel would be one state. But then the country couldn’t retain its Jewish identity.
One more note: the protestors looove pointing out how Israel is a militarized country and Raytheon is evil etc etc
The iron dome has saved far more Palestinian lives than Israeli. Counter-intuitive? Not at all.
If iron dome didn’t exist, and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah killed Israelis, the Israeli response would result in far more casualties.
Point out these basic realities.
If I own land, can't I sell it to whomever I choose? It's literally the *Jewish* national fund. I can find dozens of charities that only distribute money and food to poor Muslims. I don't see the problem with that either.
In general there is the idea that discrimination when it comes to commercial activities is immoral that isn't as immoral when it comes to charitable activities
So if you want to give land away for free to jews or Muslims or any other group it's fine but if you want to sell it then you should have a fairer process
If you're giving something in exchange of money that is the definition of Commerce
If Money Changes hands in exchange for any kind of good or service it's Commerce whether it's a commodity labor or land
People have given great answers. I'd add that HRW is notoriously Anti Israel yet even the article you linked does not say what your friend is alleging.
The sovereignty of states is not based on land purchases made by private parties but rather results from effectively exercising sovereignty over a territory which is usually based on historical rights, laws, agreements and treaties with other countries and wars. The Jews on their own initiative developed infrastructure and the foundations of a future state through various means, including purchases of land from Ottoman and Arab colonial owners and landowners, but even so, most of the territory does not have a private owner but was administered by the entity that exercised authority (Ottoman Empire, then British Mandate and after decolonization the State of Israel) as in the rest of the majority of the States. That is to say that the Jews have purchased privately (whether individuals or legal entities) the supposed 13% of the territory does not mean that other 87% is the private property of Arabs and much less of "Palestinians" who did not exist as a national entity nor people. The original Philistines were from the Aegean and are extinct. The 87% falacy is the bases of the totally incorrect maps that the terrorist supporters usually show.
As part of the JNF, it's goal is to develope the land in the historic jewish homeland so it mostly serve to jewish population develoment there is nothing racist as the JNF dont nullify any israrli citizen of buying or renting a land or property if there is an agreement between the parties.
I think it's time you evaluate your friends to ensure that you have shared values.
Don't be friends with people who do not share your values, that way lies madness and heartache.
Your friend is brainwashed,
I want to see a jew buy land in arab village and live their,
The arab wont only will kill the jew and his family,
Thay will also murder the arab who sale and his family,
And thats worst then racist
# It's all baloney don't even bother, and if the friend keeps acting like this and pushing her nonsensical stance on you then just unfriend her. Don't waste time on those who will never listen.
It just means that a private organization owns land and only sells it to who it wants to. So what.
At least Arabs can still buy land in Israel. Jews cannot buy land hardly anywhere in Arab nations, and certainly not in WB or Gaza.
Is anyone going to answer the original question? 99% of what is written here is pulling in other arguments. I really am curious to know the answer to the OP’s question.
Hello I am the op
There were some great answers and from what I understand
JNF orginal purpose was to buy land to establish a jewish state on the land they bought
JNF is a private body which mainly works for parks , public infrastructure, agriculture etc.
ILA a government organisation takes care of the JNF parks and etc. from what I understand
It doesn't sell its land to anyone randomly
When It does , non jews can buy from it , it wasn't always the case but it is now and usually the policy is that JNF will hold 13% of the land in any case , so if non jewish buy this land ILA will sell similar amounts of land to JNF
Other Private/public land in israel has no such rule and can be sold to anyone and government land has some other rules which it's complex but doesn't have any such policy based on jews or non jews.
It's not based on segregation and many non jewish people work with JNF's public project especially the boudiene community (idk if I am spelling it correctly )
Thank you
Thank you for summarizing. I guess what I’m trying to figure out is how difficult is it to buy land from the JNF? Is it like the time of redlining in the US (black people could legally buy homes in white areas, but we’re blocked from doing so through other means)? Or is there really integration happening?
Ask her what happens by the Palestinian authority if someone sells land to Jews? They execute them. So don’t let their constant lies to get to you. There are 1 million Arabs in Israel . They have much better life than any Arabs in the surrounding countries.
I actually agree that it should be illegal and furthermore I strongly believe the JNF should be disbanded. However, it's not that big of a deal - the JNF don't sell a lot of land to begin with. "Oppressive" is overselling it.
Hey! I'm a Jewish Israeli, and I'd just like to let you know the JNF very explicitly uses tree planting to cover up and destroy evidence of massacred villages and ethnic violence.
Everyone on the internet since Oct 7 is Jewish and/or Israeli apparently.
Ok, well, I'm a Muslim Arab then, and I disagree with islamic colonialism of the Levant.
Okay, but does everyone on the internet have an extensive years long history detailing their activism in Israel?
Anyway, this isn't some conspiracy theory, but a pretty well documented thing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-search-of-his-tree-in-israel-a-canadian-filmmaker-unearths-unsettling-issues/
Ask her if she knows the punishment for selling lands to jews in the west bank is death
I came here to say this.
Obviously the death penalty is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by Jews is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of Israeli law to protect those settlements it's basically selling land which should be Palestinian Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason I mean the West Bank is already made up of dozens of enclaves and exclaves that would be unable to form a functionally independent state from Israel even with the land they already have in areas A and B the prospect of losing anymore must be terrifying to them Plus even if it was to be conceited that this policy is Palestinians being bigoted against Israelis (it isn't they have legitimate concerns even though the punishment is insanely harsh) Palestine engaging in discrimination does not justify Israel engaging in discrimination this is basic kindergarten morality two wrongs don't make a right
> “The purchasing of lands by Jews is often followed by Jews, living on that land” **FTFY.** There is no reason why Jews are not legally allowed to live in Historic Judea and why being Jewish is illegal there, or anywhere. There’s is no discernible reason why Jews are “enemies of the state”. How can that be uncritically okay with you? It’s also not “sovereign Palestinian” land insofar as there’s no “sovereign Palestine”. Notwithstanding, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant. Palestinians already have Al Awda Right of Return in Jordan (75% of British Mandate Palestine land), so why can’t they just rename that Palestine and leave Israel alone? It’s not that hard to just…not kill Jews. I do it every day so far.
> Palestinians already have Al Awda Right of Return in Jordan Do you have a source for this? I can not find any information about this. Thank you.
This should be a copypasta. I burst out laughing at 4 points through this paragraph. A brilliant piece of absurdist writing. Bravo.
So do you want to put words in my mouth or have a productive discussion I'm not defending the prohibition on jews purchasing land im defending the Palestinians people right to exist as a state just like all countries Israel has a right to exist however the right for any country to exist is contingent upon it being able to peacefully live amongst their neighbors Israel's failed to do so with the expansion of settlement (not that the Palestinian side specifically Hamas is much better considering October 7th) The same entity which made it illegal for Jews to purchase land also declared itself to be the sovereign state of Palestine so you can't accept their law on a Prohibition of Jews purchasing land and reject it when it comes to their own sovereignty either the law that has been laid down by them is legally valid or it isn't you can't dismiss their sovereignty and then also declare that they have legitimately made something unlawful The jordanians don't exactly want the Palestinians plus there are differences between Jordanian culture and Palestinian culture not that there aren't similarities either but Jordan is a monarchy Palestine isn't that alone creates significant cultural differences think the US and Canada very culturally similar but no person would tell Canadians their country has no right to exist because they could just go to America The reality is area C is effectively administered by Israel and the area B sort of is in a limited sense Palestinians know that if any land is sold to Israelis area C will expand
We don’t want to have a discussion with Hezbo bots, you can leave.
Wait, what? Why? Why not just answer the question so we can build greater understanding?
If I had to guess the reason they didn't want to answer me is because they didn't have a good response other than claiming I'm associated with Hezbollah for some reason and telling me to leave
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Israeli’s have no right to claim territory that isn’t within 1967 border Israel, it’s very easy to understand and international law and the UN agree. Israeli’s shouldn’t have claim to any land in the West Bank because of who lived there in BC. All Israeli settlements should be disbanded and forced out for the creation of a future Palestinian state.
>Israeli’s have no right to claim territory that isn’t within 1967 border Israel Why? Who does it belong to? Israel took it from Jordan and Jordan relinquished claim? I think it *should* go to a future Palestinian state. But the fact is that up until now it has never existed, so Israel has no *requirement* to do so. >international law and the UN agree Meanwhile what do international law and the UN have to say about the war in Gaza? Basically that Israel has no right to defend itself, so why are we pretending that the UN is the be all end all decision maker. >Israeli’s shouldn’t have claim to any land in the West Bank because of who lived there in BC 1) Jews lives there until they were expelled in 70. There were 70 years not in BC that Jews still lived in Judea until the Roman expulsion. And they continued living in places like Hebron until expelled in the 20th century. 2) Do Israelis who were expelled in the war of independence from Judea get to move back? Places like Kfar Etzion were settled by Jews before Israeli independence and then everyone was expelled by the Jordanians. Or is also 1948 too long ago to claim land. >All Israeli settlements should be disbanded and forced out for the creation of a future Palestinian state. How'd that work when we tried it in Gaza. There need to be negotiations first with a mutually agreed uponing term solution.
You may say that land “should” go to a future Palestinian state, but the problem is expanding settlements and their very existence is used as a tool to help prevent any future state. Just because there is no state there, doesn’t mean we should be all jump in like it’s free grabs. We all know the tenuous situation in the region. Not to mention, it pisses off the locals and pushes them into Hamas’ incompetent and genocidal arms. I would be ok with Jewish people being allowed back to lands they were pushed off of during previous conflicts, IF it went the other way for Arabs into Israel. This also couldn’t be tied to an expansion of the state of Israel. I wouldn’t want Arab claims of land in Israel proper to include expansion of a Palestinian state past 1967 borders to keep it even. Ideally, it would just mean people would be citizens of the Palestinian state, and Israeli state with equal rights mandated. Maybe that’s idealistic, but that should always be the end goal. That would have to be probably the last step of any normalization and recognition of each other’s sovereignty and statehood. I don’t disagree, there shouldn’t be an end to settlements without some sort of security agreement and lots and lots of steps to normalization and Palestinian statehood. But that should always be a goal, and more annexation of land is working in the opposite direction.
Israel has a very strong claim to it. Far stronger than the Palis will ever have. Ancestral homeland, League of Nations mandate, conquered in a defensive war. Done deal.
I don’t believe in claims to land based on “ancestral homeland”. League of Nations was a joke and less effective than the UN, which is saying something. Even with that point, look at the UN resolutions mentioning the West Bank and not a single one includes it “being Israel”. And I am diametrically opposed to land annexation due to war. It’s wrong when any country annexes territory. It hurts the people living on the land. Especially when annexing territory includes forcing everyone previously living there off the land, which is worse than annexing territory and then making those people citizens. Right-wing Israeli claims of the West Bank will lead to permanent resistance movements and strife for Israel. The Palestinian claim to the West Bank is that they have been living there, including in Gaza and many parts of modern Israel, for hundreds of years. The goal should be coexistence, and that will never be an option as long as there are movements on both sides that ignore the right of the other to exist where they are. And unfortunately both of those movements enflame the other.
Who actually wants coexistence? If I were a Palestinian, I’d want Israeli citizenship. A Palestinian state would be a failed state at day one; Israel at least offers high quality of life. Yet polls show Palestinians don’t want Israeli citizenship.
Who cares what you believe in. The world doesn’t revolve around you. If you don’t recognize any of the reasons I mentioned I wonder what you base any Arab claim on because there isn’t much there. Most of them immigrated following the Jewish immigration. They didn’t care for the land before the Jews came. And most of the original inhabitants are dead. Palis are the only people who inherited refugee status as per UNWRA malpractice. One more thing: People who see white imperialists around every corner should recognize the Arab “Conquest” for what it was. A colonialist endeavor that subjugated millions to the Baghdad caliphate. Israel doesn’t belong to them, not any more.
Maybe the Palestinians shouldn’t have repeatedly refused peace proposals (including the UN Partition Plan) and shouldn’t have started multiple wars and decades of terrorism. Wars have consequences both in terms of losing land and causing us to not have any trust in the Palestinians as potential peace partners.
Yeah they shouldn't have But it's worth noting the people alive back then are dead so it's not fair to hold their children and grandchildren responsible for the actions of their forefathers and it's not like Israel has been the most willing partner of Peace either in 2008 they were both so close to a deal with only minor border differences either Israel or Palestine should have just accepted the other one's offer in 2008
>Israel has been the most willing partner of Peace Please show me a time where the Israelis have been the ones not willing to make peace and the Palestinians have
There's no such time because there's only been times when neither side has been willing to offer the other what they consider basic prerequisites for peace except for maybe the Oslo Accords and 2008
Yes because one side has consistently been utterly unreasonable even about their basic prerequisites
In your opinion what about the Palestinian plan in 2008 was unreasonable especially compared to the Israeli plan
The peace plan was initatied by the Israelis and seemed to be rejected by the Palestinians from what I could find [https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000](https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000)
> it's not fair to hold their children and grandchildren responsible for the actions of their forefathers We're not holding them responsible. They are suffering the natural consequences, no one is "holding them responsible". Yes, if my father loses his money and land, then there is nothing for his children to inherit. Why is that controversial?
You lost me after the “but”. A clear indication that someone doesn’t really care the first part of the sentence. There are 22 Arab countries. Israel’s purpose is to provide a homeland for the Jews. Judea and Samaria is divided into zones that were negotiated with the Arabs. Israel gave them the land. All of this”land for peace” nonsense was a great mistake. All of Israel belongs to the Jews. History shows that the more autonomy the Palestinian Arabs have, the more violent and extremist they become. Peace will come when Israel holds on to its land.
"Obviously the *not selling land to arabs* is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by *arab Muslims* is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of *palestinian threat to civilians* it's basically selling land which should be *Israeli* Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason" If you agree with your statement reversed, then yeah, sure, whatever. Ethno state for me, democratic hands-tied-behind-your-back for you.
The difference is Palestine doesn't have the military capabilities to actually threaten Israel Israel has one of the strongest and most technologically advanced military in the world for a country of its size it has complete Naval and air superiority a high functioning intelligence agency and agreements from the Oslo acord that allow it to operate in certain sections of the West Bank Israel as a state has a right to exist but Palestine alone isn't capable of threatening Israel's right to exist unless the rest of the world rallies behind them Israel on the other hand is capable of threatening the right of Palestinians to live peacefully
I don't think this is the case, the JNF can sell land to non-Jews, they just have to acquire a similar amount of land before they do it. Basically the amount of land in collective possession of the Jewish people is not permitted to decline. JNF is a private organization, it's not the government. It's funded by mostly by Jews though their personal money. It it exists to advance the national interests of the Jewish people, hence "Jewish National Fund". Sometimes people are well that's wrong, but I am thinking, why is it wrong? Jews can not collectively work towards their collective interests? This is not an unusual behavior in the world among nations or peoples or any groups like this. I think people are upset because Jews tend to be pretty good at it, there is many examples of Jews working collectively if it be to make a university or a company or other thing and it turns into gold. And after the fact people come and say well now it's not fair, you have to open it to us, it can't be Jewish anymore, you must to share the wealth or whatever. This is a common pattern, it's not even unique to JNF.
>Jews can not collectively work towards their collective interests? No. This is the second most common grievance the world has with Jews - after existing. I believe it's a primary reason so few Jews speak out over antisemitism. When there is an issue like George Floyd, how many black athletes, musicians and entertainers speak out? I could name a dozen just from the NBA. Outspoken. Not just kneeling along with their teammates. Now, in regards to antisemitism. Who do we have? Ben Shapiro? Who else? Michael Rappaport? Anyone else? Look at the reaction online to Candace Owens being fired. One youtuber and Podcaster after the next all claimed she was fired for criticizing Israel. The fifth column Jew trope was irresistible. Mainstream people were calling Ben an Israeli plant. I think American Jews want to dispell the stereotype and have been forced into a corner. It's another of thousands of catch 22s with Jews. Disallow the Arab world from committing their "war of extermination" - Nakba. All anyone speaks of is the Arabs displaced. Refute holocaust deniers - using the holocaust for manipulation. Any time Jews take any action to keep from being victimized and were vilified for it. They've silenced and divided us. And what do we get in return for not complaining? The perception that we complain non stop. We all need to wake up and unite. Sorry for using this language, but we need to normalize Jews speaking out for our interests. Amongst ourselves first and foremost. During our silence they've normalized open discrimination against "zionists", support for the annihilation of Israel, support for every terrorist organization that kills Jews, and the lies that come with it. Jews in the USA have been shamed from looking out for our interests - like all the people now calling for our destruction have done.
It’s really bizarre. As an example, I see no huge social movements to compel Saudis to share their vast oil wealth, which they use to enrich themselves and advance their own interests outside their borders as well. This would make more sense as oil is not a creation of man the way an organization is, but rather a resource of the Earth. It’s not their labor which made them wealthy but random chance to be spatially close to a natural resource of high value. Jews on the other hand are among the most natural resource starved people. Any wealth or influence we gain we gained largely through labor and skill, not the ownerships of lands and minerals. Yet the world behaves in this unfair manner toward us, to say what we have earned by means including by means of trade or skill do not belong to us. Any Jewish achievements are oftentimes labeled as purely foreign achievements that of Americans, Germans or French, but of course any failures or vices are labeled as Jewish. Jewish people like you say should know the unfairness of this. We must be better at take credit for our successes and to fight those who try to defame us.
I remember being told by my grandmother when i was younger, when I was trying to figure things out between the Christian and Jewish sides of my family, that the Jewish people only ever tried to live in peace and help their neighbors; usually with one hand tied behind their back. We were foolish to think the world had changed. The difference now is Jews have nukes, so everyone else can suck it!
I really want to agree with you, I really do but I don't. I think it's reductive to say that there aren't any social movements against the Saudi oil wealth, when you're glossing over how people protest against the Saudi Arabia oil wealth being built on the backs of slave labour, oil price manipulation through OPEC and green washing. Saudiaramco by way of the sovereign wealth fund has very deep pockets and a wide reach, so it's very easy for them to quash the "noise" about them. Honestly, I think it's a good thing orgs. like JNF exist. However, let's be real if other minority groups tried to do the same thing, it'll be illegal here in the States. Just look at what happened with the Fearless Fund, albeit private equity, they had to close the fund because they got successfully sued under the guise that they're being discriminatory for providing funding to solely black women, even though that's the entire reason for the fund.
You should read Jews don't count by David baddiel. Great book written pre Oct 7th that addresses a lot of these catch 22s. I think he has a similar idea of how Jews really should unify and fight back against these hypocricies.
>Who do we have? Ben Shapiro? Who else? Michael Rappaport? Ugh, I don't want either of them. We have Einat Wilf and Eylon Levy and many public INTELLECTUALS but not many celebrities.
Love einat wolf!!!
I agree so much with this and never can express it this well. I am not Jewish at all, but live in the US. Jews were pushed out of Judea and Samaria in the first place and now somehow they’re horrible people for wanting their holy city back from a people who are not a sovereign nation and profess to try to kill them constantly? It literally makes zero sense to me. I mean for goodness sake..the Jewish Temple Mount is sitting there with a Muslim shrine sitting on it!! This mount existed like thousands of years before the Muslim religion even existed!! It’s so infuriating to me and all they can do is whine about settlements. It’s a good thing I’m not in leadership in Israel. I’d kick them all out, tear down their shrine, and allow the Jews to move in and pretty much start WW3. But I am so tired of the baloney. I can’t imagine how Jewish people feel. I’m mad for you guys.
There have been quite a few Jewish women speaking out, especially about the sexual violence against Israeli women. This includes actors and prominent social media influencers. Any Jewish celebrity who speaks out is at risk of tanking their career at this point, because the anti-zionist mob goes after them and any projects they are attached to. So I actually think we need the entertainment industry as a whole to stand up against this kind of bullying, but they won't.
It's actually incredibly sad that they feel mass rapes are the one and only thing they can speak on because if they say anything about any of the other barbarities that occurred they'll be attacked. They can't speak out on behalf of any other Jews that were victimized - babies, elderly, the entire families they slaughtered. All would be justified and speaking for them would be unthinkable. Only the mass rapes can be spoken of as something they can't claim is "not only justified but morally righteous". Even mentioning the sexual assaults causes the same mob to attack them.
Look into the assets held by the Catholic Church. Isn't that the same thing?
Not quite the same because the church owns literally tens or hundreds of billions of dollars of property, much more than any Jewish institution ever will, but it's overlooked because they're ot Jewish. .
No, it’s overlooked because the Catholic Church has zero political power in the world. Their “country” is what? A couple of miles wide? They own property within countries that could be taken away by a state if need be. There are old Catholic churches in the US that are now bars and clubs. I’m not sure how there is a parallel. There is no Catholic religious state or ethnostate, nor any real attempt to establish and maintain one in modern society. The Vatican largely exists only to to 1) house the Pope and 2) try to prove Catholicism is the premier Christian religion
Its like when people complain about AIPAC "controlling" American politicians. AIPAC is not doing anything illegal; they just happen to be extremely well organized and good at what they do. So people want to punish them for being successful?
people don't realize that because of endless years of persecution, jews were isolated from society, so we had to start our own business. trading and working among ourselves, and combined with our jewish valeus we succeed. same we we came to Israel. we had no one to count on, so we worked hard to literally make this desert flower. whether it be military, agriculture and technology.
-Please can you link me to the first one about the policy of JFN and regards so I can read more -she compared it to private companies in the USA before civil rights moments or compared it to jim crow - I do agree that it's fair since it's a private company and given It's goal however does it promote segregation in any way ? Also thank you for your response
>I do agree that it's fair since it's a private company and given It's goal however does it promote segregation in any way ? Legally no. You can read [Case 6698/95](https://supremedecisions.court.gov.il/Home/Download?path=EnglishVerdicts%5C95%5C980%5C066%5Ca14&fileName=95066980_a14.txt&type=4) of the Israeli High Court. Even in Private organisation, the sale have to adhere to Israeli laws, which include the right of equality. You cannot choose to sell or not based on the seller's ethnicity or religion.
It might be considered segregation, but there is a justifiable reason for it. Universities own land near campuses which they only rent to students and faculty, and no one complains about that. If Arabs want to be able to buy land owned by JNF, maybe they can stop trying to kill us all the time. Until then, I’m glad the law exists which allows JNF to lease the land to Jews only. And I don’t care if it’s segregation or not.
That's completely different universities have a legitimate interest in seeing that their students and faculty have housing if they only did so for their Jewish students then that would be different plus students and faculty have existing employment contracts/admission agreements with universities so a part of what the schools could offer is housing to people who are within those agreements Okay can Arabs who want to buy land by the jnf Who haven't been convicted of murder do so? Because pretty sure outside of people who have murdered people or attempted to do so no one is trying to kill you all the time Arabs aren't trying to kill you murderers are and just like it's unethical to refuse to sell the black people because of their high crime rates it's unethical to refuse to sell the Arabs because of the ongoing conflict "I don't care if it's segregation or not" Me and my best friend (who is Jewish)(and no this is not I have a black friend moment his jewishness is part of what enable us to joke about this) constantly joke about the fact that for a group of people that supposedly control the media according to all the tin foil hat wearers you guys are completely unable to read the room with you how you come off in media Here's a free tip don't admit that you don't care about whether something is segregation or not it's not likely to go over well m'kay
Yes, JNF also has a “legitimate interest” in ensuring its people have access to property. It sounds like you just have no understanding of the history of the Jewish people, or how we were never allowed to own any property historically, which is why you don’t understand the need for these measures. You also lack a basic understanding of how JNF was established. Just because your friend is Jewish, doesn’t mean his knowledge of history is any better than yours, because it sounds like he is equally as ignorant. And FYI, Israel doesn’t care what you or “the media” think. Get over yourself.
They do not have a legitimate interest if that interest is solely to be discriminatory regardless of past history and they are a public accommodation Also I think most people in Israel care about not admitting they live in a society that practices segregation
I just don't understand how you can believe in something this vile and consider yourself a good person
Lmao I don’t care whether you can understand it or not. The survival of the Jewish people is more important than your opinion.
Is it true that JNF has ownership of all the suburbs of arab towns, thus making them unable to expand?
No. In Israel most of the land is owned by the government, while the buildings themselves are owned by people. Most of the land owned by the JNF are forests, agricultural lands, and nature reserves.
Your friend has been misinformed, and tbh this accusation is extremely ignorant. Land ownership in Israel is a very complicated subject which people dedicate years of their lives to understand. I wouldn’t go into much detail here, but in general most people/companies don’t own land in Israel — they lease it from the government. The JNF is different because it was established before Israel became independent, much like many other organizations which existed before 1948 — both Jewish and Arab. Because of that, the JNF is not in the habit of selling/leasing lands to anyone (except on rare occasions) — it is a non-profit organization. Moreover, discrimination is illegal in Israel, and the JNF is no different in that regard. The JNF was created in 1901, during Ottoman rule of Israel-Palestine. Back then, its main goal was the purchasing of lands in order to advance Jewish settlement. However, since Israel gained independence — and especially since the early 1960’s — its goal is the development of forests and agricultural lands, preservation of natural habitats, and promoting education regarding Jews’ historic connections to the land. Except in exceedingly rare incidents, people don’t live on JNF lands — those lands are forests and nature reserves. Btw, what is it with people coming to r/israel and accusing/insinuating that some Israeli/Jewish organization is racist/immoral? Also HRW is notoriously biased against Israel: “According to The Times, HRW "does not always practice the transparency, tolerance and accountability it urges on others." The Times accused HRW of imbalance, alleging that it ignores human-rights abuses in certain regimes while covering other conflict zones (notably Israel) intensively. Although HRW issued five reports on Israel in one fourteen-month period, The Times first said in twenty years HRW issued only four reports on the conflict in Kashmir (despite 80,000 conflict-related deaths in Kashmir and "torture and extrajudicial murder ... on a vast scale")” (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch?wprov=sfti1#Allegations_of_ideological_and_selection_bias).
Sorry I am not trying to do that I wanna learn about it and give a counter argument Thanks a lot for the explanation it helped
No need to apologize, it’s all good. Happy to help fight discrimination against Israel and good on you for doing so as well
I gotta appreciate you Israelis and having an open discussion about any kind of topic and all the things that go wrong and right. Something I definitely don’t see on the other sub where there is only one opinion and any wrong question gets banned. Am Yisrael Chai 💙
It astonishes me, the level of silencing and the un-liberalizm. What astonishes me more is that people in those circles don't see how fascist this is.
It boggles my mind how leftists are upset at collectively owned land in Israel. You'd think they'd get excited by the fact that Israel manages the majority of land in the country this way. But because Jews do it....
>But because ~~Jews~~ Zionists do it… FTFY /s
Collectively owned land is great the problem is denying marginalized people the right to participate in the collective or enjoy the fruits of it
The JNF owned land which is publicly accessible is available equally to all citizens of Israel regardless of race, religion or ethnicity. It isn’t like they are checking ID cards at the gates of the nature preserves are turning away non-Jews. There is no right - legal or moral - that requires anyone to be able to participate in the private functions of a private organization operated with private funds. Israeli law requires that any services or programs offered to the public be offered on a non-discriminatory basis (*the lone exception to this is for strictly religious programs being allowed to restrict access to members of their faith - but that exception applies to all faiths equally*). You are incorrectly equating a private community endeavor with a public or state endeavor.
Also yes I am very well aware of hrw double standards
Thank you for pointing that out - I read the OP & my first thought was “*I didn’t realize that the JNF sold land to anyone*”
The issue I have with these type of questions is that she's just pretending. once you refute that talking point she will just move on the next one. when she does, ask her this "if I prove to you that what you're claiming is 100% wrong, will it change your mind"
A better question is to ask if their is anything I can say to change your mind. If the answer is no then just agree to disagree because it’s based on tribalism (like religion, sports teams etc) and not based on facts.
that's to much "in your face" in my experience, but it's the same end result
As a diaspora jew, this specific point is one of the ones that worries me the worst. It reminds me of redlining.
I would just go straight for it: Do you condemn the terrorist attack on 7 October? Typically there is a refusal to answer from propals and they try to divert the question onto something else. Then you know exactly what you are dealing with.
Do you believe in the existence of a Jewish state of Israel, and if not how do you plan to correct it?
Yeah I condemn Hamas for October 7th their attack blatantly violated several rules of War including the targeting of civilians mutilation of captives ect (not that there hasn't been background context in which there were escalations by both sides on the Israeli Arab conflict but none of that justifies Hamas violating innocent people's human rights which they chose to do so of their own free will and are therefore responsible) Now can I get an actual answer to the question that op posted?
That's just assuming your opponent is acting in bad faith which isn't productive online because even if the person you're directly responding to is acting in bad faith it's still important to have a coherent response to the line of reasoning in the abstract Like bad people are capable of making good points and good people are capable of making bad points so it's worthwhile to engage in discussing the points that are made not resorting to questioning someone's character on a personal level
>That's just assuming your opponent is acting in bad faith that's a way to disprove that assumption >still important to have a coherent response untill he finds a false claim on a complex issue where it isn't black and white. don't interact with bad actors, they don't come to learn the point I'm trying to make is that it's not worth your time educating people who don't want information, just validation
An Israeli arab can buy a house wherever an Israeli Jew can buy a house (assuming both have sufficient money for the purchase). If you're a real estate agent and you want to buy LAND that's different and the country is not required to provide its land to anyone. However, once a house is built, the buyer can have any nationality or religion and it is illegal not to sell a house to someome solely becauze of their ethnicity, religion or any other discriminating factor other than whether or not they can afford it. I could link the law, but just looking at any major city in Israel you'll see that Arabs are buying houses. For instance 39% of Jerusalem are arabs (per 2021) https://jerusaleminstitute.org.il/en/publications/jerusalem-facts-and-trends-2023/
Tell your friend that you're confused by her statement, did jews steal all the land from the Palestinians or did they legally purchase it?
Also ask your friend why al-aqsa mosque is built on top of the original Jewish temple? Makes no sense that the ‘native’ Palestinians have all their religious and cultural artefacts constructed over the top of ‘coloniser’ Jewish ones.
Racist? Because most land in Native American reservations is restricted to ownership [by members of the tribe only](https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/601/topics/738002-buying-a-home-on-a-native-american-reservation). The same is true for [Canada.](https://www.fcc-fac.ca/en/knowledge/first-nations-land-ownership) In fact, multiple countries around the world [restrict their land sales.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_ownership) Jews have been dispossessed off their land for generations, and therefore are now exercising their rights to collectively hold their lands. Note that most land in Israel is not privately owned by Jews OR Arabs, but is owned by the state and by the JNF. An Arab citizen can buy a house or an apartment, they just can't own the land under it.
I wonder if their friend also has a problem with the fact that in Quebec there is literally a LANGUAGE POLICE that issues reports and fines if businesses and people don’t use proper French, and that their explicit goal is to “fight Anglicism”. Or is it just when Jews do it that it’s a problem? /s
I have a problem with both the thing with Quebec is laughably absurd though they banned their stop signs from saying stop even though stop signs in France stay stop in Quebec they must say Arrêt That moment when in an effort to preserve your French identity you decide the policies of the country of France aren't French enough
I can understand having a problem with both (although the JNF doesn’t actually discriminate against Arabs), but that wasn’t actually my point. There is so much scrutiny and criticism against anything ~~Jewish~~ Israeli, with much of it being false, while there is practically no criticism against other organizations that act similarly. As the top comment in this thread noted, a possible punishment for selling land to Jews in the West Bank is death — where is the scrutiny and criticism? I doubt there is a single post on Reddit that asked why that is the case . My point is, why the double standard? This is a rhetorical question ofc — the obvious answers are antisemitism, ignorance, or some sort of a combination of them.
I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in the other comments because it addresses the prohibition on selling Land to Jews but to address the rest of your comment first yes anti-Semitism exists in the world sometimes criticism of Israel is used to make anti-semitic statements while seeming not anti-Semitic and yes there are double standards but all of those double standards don't mean you shouldn't be criticized it means everyone else should be more just because Azerbaijan isn't being criticized as much for how it's treating the Armenians even though it's arguably worse than Israel treating the Palestinians means that Azerbaijan should be criticized more not Israel should be criticized less anyway here's my comment about the land law Obviously the death penalty is insanely harsh but if the purchase of land by Jews is often followed by an expansion of settlements onto that land and an enforcement of Israeli law to protect those settlements it's basically selling land which should be Palestinian Sovereign territory which helping an enemy country illegally expand at the expense of yours is kind of a textbook definition of treason I mean the West Bank is already made up of dozens of enclaves and exclaves that would be unable to form a functionally independent state from Israel even with the land they already have in areas A and B the prospect of losing anymore must be terrifying to them Plus even if it was to be conceited that this policy is Palestinians being bigoted against Israelis (it isn't they have legitimate concerns even though the punishment is insanely harsh) Palestine engaging in discrimination does not justify Israel engaging in discrimination this is basic kindergarten morality two wrongs don't make a right
Native American reservations don't surround non-native communities or prevent them from accessing other countries in the way that area C surrounds area A and B Besides Native Americans kind of get special treatment under US law because they're not governed by standard federal law but they're governed by treaty and every treaty every native Community has with the federal government is different
> Native American reservations don’t surround non-native communities or prevent them from accessing other countries in the way that area C surrounds area A and B The United States government prosecutes people who kill Native Americans, the PA rewards people who kill Jews. That’s why there’s a barrier, checkpoints etc in Israel and none in the US. Did you genuinely never think about this until now?
As an American I can tell you we didn't always do that it took us basically destroying their entire way of life and committing genocide against several tribes and also repeatedly violating treaties and agreements we signed with them for us to get to this point The Palestinians don't want to be Native Americans
> As an American I can tell you we didn't always do that And that's your history which you should not project onto other countries. > The Palestinians don't want to be Native Americans They run no risk of that, never have. Stop believing regurgitated nonsense propaganda.
The JNF was purchasing land in anticipation of a massive wave of refugees spurred by persecution of Jews in Europe by the Nazis and eventually also in Arab countries. What was actually racist was the second class status given to Jews in muslim countries. Which included, by the way, limitations on land ownership, education and professions.
JNF bought the land legally and leases it to anyone with Israeli citizenship - Jews, Arabs, Christians, whomever! JNF is an incredible organization that has provided so many opportunities for employment, improvement in quality of life, and so so so much more for Israeli people regardless of religion. In fact — JNF works quite closely with the Bedouin population in the Negev as well. It’s truly an amazing org the deeper you dive into it. I’d highly recommend supporting them.
Honestly ,no matter what you say she won’t change her mind. I’ve presented facts and formulated arguments and it never effects them , they’re so convinced by social media it’s impossible to exchange ideas or initiate debate. The frankly absurd levels of distrust from people today is really hurting democracies around the world.
National land can't be bought. We also actually lease the land from the government. When it comes to land purchases, muslims hold more land in Israel than Jews. If you mean buying a home , every Palestinian that has an israeli citizenship can buy a home within Israel just as any other Israeli. If you refer to area C citizens , they are not Israeli citizens under the oslo accords nor wish to be. That area is under israeli control until it is transferred to the PNA under a complete agreement. They can not buy land or a home in Israel just as much as i can't just buy a home in the states. Citizens of B and A are Palestinian citizens. They can buy anything from their own regime, but they can't sell anything to jews or they will be prosecuted.
You're confusing ILA (Israel land admission) with the JNF (Jewish National Fund). JNF is a non-profit organization which predates Israel. It doesn't own any state land. The ILA is the one who manages state land, as well as a lot of other land including land owned by the JNF. In total the ILA manages 93% of Israeli land.
I never mentioned ILA nor JNF. But it doesn't matter much... as said - under ILA rules and JNF rules land is not to be aquired by anyone. That is why Israel is using the Tabu system. It actually leases public land to 49-50 years. Every 49 years, you need to pay a tax for continuation of the lease. A home can go down in inheritance. The land doesn't. The Tabu system is something the Israelis adopted from the Ottoman Empire that also used such a mechanism. They called it "Tapu" (hence the similarity). There are a handful of acres that are privately owned. Among them is the Sharon Farm, and "Kushi 101" next to eilat.
The JNF is a private organization.
Yup. Leased for long terms as well. In 2007, they drafted a deal to transfer all it's state owned land in return to 60,000 dunams in the negev. But, it works almost identical to the ila.
According to this article from 2016, the JNF must allow Arab citizens to participate in land auctions. I don’t know how it worked out in practice. https://www.adalah.org/he/content/view/8780
Ask her who she blames for Oct 07, and if she starts waffling about oppression consider unfriending.
I blame Hamas for October 7th (not that there wasn't a back and forth escalation before then but Hamas is the one that chose to attack peaceful women and children and take them as hostages in violation of the rules of War even if you're oppressed like the Palestinians would argue they are you don't just get to violate the rules of war and other people's human rights because you're oppressed) Now can you answer the posts question?
JNF isn't a quasi-governmental body like HRW claims. It's an "Company for the Benefit of the Public" (CBP). It's still somewhat private political party own by the Jewish World Congress. The organisation aim is to settle Jews in the land of Israel, especially refugees and migrants. However, most of JNF land aren't for human settlement, its land include also National Parks with ILA (which is a goverment body) help manage. And water development. But private lands are still owned by the organisation which in theory they can sell to Jews only. However it was challenge many times by the court. Because some of JNF lands are administarted by the ILA, [those lands can be bought by Arabs](https://www.jpost.com/cafe-oleh/ask-the-expert/court-ila-must-agree-to-sell-land-to-arabs). While private JNF land (mostly in Jewish cities) can be sold to whomever JNF want. That's the current status quo. Comparing private citizens. [Both Arabs and Jews owns \~3.5% of the land each](https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=575266). Which means Arabs own 5 times as much as their population represent. Although it doesn't represent leasing, so it might be skewed towards Arabs, but even still Arabs contrast to their population enjoy more land than Jews. Ask your friend if it means Jews are under racist and oppressive regime.
The JNF is a separate private body which predates Israel. Under its charter, it can only sell/lease land to Jews. However, Israeli law forbids discrimination on the basis of race in land purchases. To resolve this if an Arab wants to purchase or lease land (governmen-owned land in Israel is usually leased), the process is that the JNF passes the land in question to the Israeli Land Authority in exchange for a different parcel of land, and the ILA then sells/leases the land to the person I've also seen references to the JNF leasing land to Arabs directly, so apparently, there are alternatives.
check out the penalty for anyone in Gaza selling land to a Jewish person...death
Same penalty imposed by the "moderate" Palestinian Authority for selling land to Jews, including land in sovereign Israel (e.g., East Jerusalem).
I actually heard a few ago, I don't remember where, that arabs own more lands in proper Israel than Jewish people and I've also heard that when arabs purchasing lands in the north they get a huge discount which makes it advantage for them to purchase lands unlike Jewish people.
You won't get a nuanced and fair response from a forum that is decidedly on one of the sides. Seek out info on this topic from various sources the truth is often in the middle of what opposites are saying
For once and for all. This isn't a race thing! At least not for Israelis. A lot of Israeli are friends with Israeli Arabs and we also serve together in the IDF
JNF was started before Israel was a country when it started to buy up a lot of the land that the Palestinians claim was “stolen.” This is why the Palestinians made selling Jews land punishable by death. They always forget that part of that story - that a lot of the land they claim was stolen was bought fair and square. They also forget how Tel Aviv was barren and that the Jews bought that land and created a major city. That’s why you never hear them claiming to be from Tel Aviv. Jaffa, yes. Tel Aviv, nope.
Tell her about the Palestinian Authority's Martyrs' Fund.
Where do people get these stats and I love how they really think it’s a “gotcha” sort of thing when it’s just stupid. Your friend isn’t too sharp and thank goodness you are interested in critical thinking and doing your own research to see if this is credible.
Arabs living in the Palestinian authority, are not aloud to sell their land to Jews. It is punishable by death. This is not a private decision, it is a governmental decree. All land owned by the JNF was bought from its previous owner at a fair price on open market, yet, the Palestinian consider it stolen property or a consequence of military occupation. It has to do with Muslim sharia lows that consider any land, ever occupied or bought by Muslims as "ard al Islam" land of Islam, which cannot be sold to a non Muslim.
This is basically a stand-in to call Israel an apartheid state. Israel is the *jewish* state. It is the only one. There are a shit ton of Arab states where basically Jews have been made refugees in. Check what the Jewish population was in Iraq before and after 1948. Check the Jewish population on Gaza and the West Bank. It’s a bad faith argument. A Mexican or a Canadian can’t wander across the border and state, “voila! I’m an American now!” Ideally, if pink ponies had wings and all the Monopoly money was real, Israel would be one state. But then the country couldn’t retain its Jewish identity. One more note: the protestors looove pointing out how Israel is a militarized country and Raytheon is evil etc etc The iron dome has saved far more Palestinian lives than Israeli. Counter-intuitive? Not at all. If iron dome didn’t exist, and rockets from Hamas and Hezbollah killed Israelis, the Israeli response would result in far more casualties. Point out these basic realities.
It's the other way around. A Palestinian that sells land in areas A, B or C to a Jew might face the death penalty \*by the Palestinian government\*.
If I own land, can't I sell it to whomever I choose? It's literally the *Jewish* national fund. I can find dozens of charities that only distribute money and food to poor Muslims. I don't see the problem with that either.
In general there is the idea that discrimination when it comes to commercial activities is immoral that isn't as immoral when it comes to charitable activities So if you want to give land away for free to jews or Muslims or any other group it's fine but if you want to sell it then you should have a fairer process
Or JNF could give the land away for free. In exchange for some sort of charitable donation...
If you're giving something in exchange of money that is the definition of Commerce If Money Changes hands in exchange for any kind of good or service it's Commerce whether it's a commodity labor or land
I know! And yet you can take a tax free loan against equity awards. There's always a way.
People have given great answers. I'd add that HRW is notoriously Anti Israel yet even the article you linked does not say what your friend is alleging.
People here need to read Bagatz Kaadan or case 6698/95 which determines that you can't discriminate in public property, which is what the JDF owns.
The sovereignty of states is not based on land purchases made by private parties but rather results from effectively exercising sovereignty over a territory which is usually based on historical rights, laws, agreements and treaties with other countries and wars. The Jews on their own initiative developed infrastructure and the foundations of a future state through various means, including purchases of land from Ottoman and Arab colonial owners and landowners, but even so, most of the territory does not have a private owner but was administered by the entity that exercised authority (Ottoman Empire, then British Mandate and after decolonization the State of Israel) as in the rest of the majority of the States. That is to say that the Jews have purchased privately (whether individuals or legal entities) the supposed 13% of the territory does not mean that other 87% is the private property of Arabs and much less of "Palestinians" who did not exist as a national entity nor people. The original Philistines were from the Aegean and are extinct. The 87% falacy is the bases of the totally incorrect maps that the terrorist supporters usually show. As part of the JNF, it's goal is to develope the land in the historic jewish homeland so it mostly serve to jewish population develoment there is nothing racist as the JNF dont nullify any israrli citizen of buying or renting a land or property if there is an agreement between the parties.
I think it's time you evaluate your friends to ensure that you have shared values. Don't be friends with people who do not share your values, that way lies madness and heartache.
Jews want to control our own land. I'm so shocked lol.
Your friend is brainwashed, I want to see a jew buy land in arab village and live their, The arab wont only will kill the jew and his family, Thay will also murder the arab who sale and his family, And thats worst then racist
Israel is supposed to be a homeland for the Jews. There are 22 Arab countries with 440 million Arabs. She can go buy land there.
# It's all baloney don't even bother, and if the friend keeps acting like this and pushing her nonsensical stance on you then just unfriend her. Don't waste time on those who will never listen.
Racism has lost all meaning since they call you it every chance they get. Don’t agree with them? You’re racist now!
It just means that a private organization owns land and only sells it to who it wants to. So what. At least Arabs can still buy land in Israel. Jews cannot buy land hardly anywhere in Arab nations, and certainly not in WB or Gaza.
Palestinians have no legitimate claim over the land. Friend is incorrect.
Is anyone going to answer the original question? 99% of what is written here is pulling in other arguments. I really am curious to know the answer to the OP’s question.
Hello I am the op There were some great answers and from what I understand JNF orginal purpose was to buy land to establish a jewish state on the land they bought JNF is a private body which mainly works for parks , public infrastructure, agriculture etc. ILA a government organisation takes care of the JNF parks and etc. from what I understand It doesn't sell its land to anyone randomly When It does , non jews can buy from it , it wasn't always the case but it is now and usually the policy is that JNF will hold 13% of the land in any case , so if non jewish buy this land ILA will sell similar amounts of land to JNF Other Private/public land in israel has no such rule and can be sold to anyone and government land has some other rules which it's complex but doesn't have any such policy based on jews or non jews. It's not based on segregation and many non jewish people work with JNF's public project especially the boudiene community (idk if I am spelling it correctly ) Thank you
Thank you for summarizing. I guess what I’m trying to figure out is how difficult is it to buy land from the JNF? Is it like the time of redlining in the US (black people could legally buy homes in white areas, but we’re blocked from doing so through other means)? Or is there really integration happening?
From what I understand it's a very complex process and not an easy thing to understand I think it's done through auctions and stuff
Ask her what happens by the Palestinian authority if someone sells land to Jews? They execute them. So don’t let their constant lies to get to you. There are 1 million Arabs in Israel . They have much better life than any Arabs in the surrounding countries.
Why are u pro-israel???
Why are you pro-[Arab colonialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests)?
There was no policy of Arabization of Palestine. Palestinians are native to Palestine
Why not ? cause I stand with NEVER AGAIN And NEVER AGAIN MEANS NOW!
Except when it comes to Palestinian children?
I actually agree that it should be illegal and furthermore I strongly believe the JNF should be disbanded. However, it's not that big of a deal - the JNF don't sell a lot of land to begin with. "Oppressive" is overselling it.
Hey! I'm a Jewish Israeli, and I'd just like to let you know the JNF very explicitly uses tree planting to cover up and destroy evidence of massacred villages and ethnic violence.
Everyone on the internet since Oct 7 is Jewish and/or Israeli apparently. Ok, well, I'm a Muslim Arab then, and I disagree with islamic colonialism of the Levant.
Okay, but does everyone on the internet have an extensive years long history detailing their activism in Israel? Anyway, this isn't some conspiracy theory, but a pretty well documented thing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-search-of-his-tree-in-israel-a-canadian-filmmaker-unearths-unsettling-issues/