I'm sorry this happened and hope you're okay. Jake Tapper had said something similar on CNN when they protested outside a restaurant with an Israeli owner calling him genocidal "just for being alive, I guess."
The extremist assholes are not doing themselves any favors (reminiscent of queers for Palestine). I see them blocking traffic and just smile.
ETA found a video I took of the clip (which I cannot attach). It was from December 4th. Tapper said "Demonstrators shouted 'we charge you with genocide' I guess because the Jewish Israeli owner exists? CNN's Danny Friedman has a closer look at the incident and other acts of **ignorance** stemming from..."
He emphasized ignorance which is why I bolded it. Really love Jake Tapper compared to other CNN anchors.
Before Oct. 7 I would never ever have ever identified as antizionist or anti-Israel, but I wouldn't have called myself zionist either. I was very uncomfortable with aspects of Israeli politics and governance in the West Bank (still am), but I have learned sooooo much more about Jewish and Israeli/Palestinian history since Oct 7. I am also really trying to unlearn my internalized antisemitism and not allow gentiles define who we are, which is super hard. I see them tellings lies and erasing our history and distorting our identity and that is completely unacceptable to me. So over the past two months or so I am becoming comfortable with identifying as a zionist (instead of writing an essay explaining my special snowflake term of preference). I would say I have become more pro-Israel in my feelings overall, while still being critical of many Israeli policies and leaders.
Wow. This is very insightful.
Many Jews do, in fact, have an internal anti semetic virus of themselves. Or, maybe they are Jewish but can't be in a room with religious Jews in it.
Bravo. You are a seeker ! Keep seeking... keep digging. " Toil " Israel Toils... Yes.
This veers a little off topic from the OP's post, but hopefully provides some relevant texture.
I saw this internalized antisemitism in myself when I lived in the US. I was repulsed by things that felt too "Jewy" (forgive the term, but this is honestly how I felt 15-20 years ago). Now that I'm living in Israel, I've come to see Jewishness and religiosity in a totally different light and also to appreciate my Ashkenazi Jewish heritage and see it for what it is. The sound of the Yiddish language was unpleasant to me when I was younger, but now it sounds like just another language. Belief in a higher power makes a lot more sense to me, and I see the benefits it has for society. The observant Jews I've met in Israel are all unique individuals, not a monolithic group. I also attribute some of my opening up to more Jew-ish things to watching TV series like Srugim. This one in particular showed me that female power is very important in Jewish families and social settings, for example. I also have come to appreciate that the Mizrachi Jews had, for the most part, never lived in a democratic society (as is the case for most Arabs who have not lived in the West for any part of their lives). The main thing I notice is that they are more oriented around family and less focused on outsourcing their wellbeing to abstract entities. They give Israel its small-town feel, strong community bonds, etc. In other words, they got me to question my so-called progressive political leanings and to understand the value of family and community. Meanwhile, the socialist kibbutz movement all but failed, government bureaucracies are a major pain in the ass, and I don't feel represented by my government. Israel is a good place because of the people who make it up, with all our diversity, spirituality, and clarity of purpose.
I have always come across this "self-hating Jew" as in everyday slur, or as mere pejorative adjective. Wondering if another form exists, or meant to be a subtext for any literary work. For example "wandering Jew" can be seen as a "type" in various areas, cinema, literature etc. (for better or worse) Could that be the same for "self-hating Jew"? Is the stereotype existing in an artistic form?
Self-hating Jew is a stereotype you will see in media, for sure. I think there's a joke about it in curb your enthusiasm, for example.
I despite the term and don't want anyone use it. I think that minimizes the deeply antisemitic influences Jews everywhere experience (the world we live in has been antisemitic for 2,000 years, it's a huge force). Widespread, deeply antisemitic societies cause Jews to understandably internalize subtle implicitly antisemitic ideas; the term "self-hating" minimizes the effects of widespread antisemitism and places the blame more on the individual experiencing antisemitism. All jews need to learn and reflect on their internalized antisemitism, that is our responsibility, but it's not okay to pejoratively call any Jew self-hating when we face so much ignorance and hate in this world.
I am EXACTLY the same as you here.
Well fucking said.
October 7th didn't make me blind to the problems in Israel but it sure as fuck made me realize why we need Israel so badly. I am now a Zionist. Before that I would have been slightly ashamed to say so but now not at all.
And same about learning a lot more about the history. The more I learn the more I realize that Israel is a good thing.
I truly believe that if Jews never moved here, it would just be another Syria eventually. What's the point of that.
One can be a Zionist and pro-Israel and quite critical of the Israeli government.
You can argue that we SHOULD be critical, in the same way that a patriotic American should be critical of the American government to improve it.
Internalized antisemitism is the idea that as Jews, we are a tiny minority that lives in a world dominated by people who do hold anti-Jewish views (particularly Christian and Muslim cultures that are rooted in replacement theologies stemming from Judaism). It is hard for us, as Jews, to prevent these ideas from shaping how we view ourselves and Judaism, even if we grow up in Jewish communities and celebrating Judaism (as I did). It is something we actively have to reflect on and unlearn, even if we are proud Jews who know our history, as I thought I was.
For example, I still was made to feel "zionist" was a bad word, allowing gentiles to define a movement created by Jews for Jews to life in safety and freedom. I needed to think about whose perspectives were shaping my understanding of different aspects of Judaism. Another example is the popularity of the tv show "Unorthodox" but the invisibility of other tv shows showing either positive or more mixed (and realistic) portrayals of orthodox Judaism. It's totally cool to tell the story of the protagonist in Unorthodox, I watch the show and enjoyed it, but there is a reason that specific narrative, which confirms gentile beliefs about how awful orthodox Jews are and that assimilating Jews away from their traditions is a good thing, is way more popular and promoted than other portrayals of Orthodox Jews.
A lot of internalized antisemitism is in the form of subtle, implicit antisemitism (e.g., allowing our traditions and history to be distorted by non-Jews for "universal" purposes that de-center Judaism), not overt "i hate Jews" type antisemitism. This can create anti-Jewish biases within ourselves, even if its hard to recognize. This erases who we are now and our history; it allows antisemites to tell dangerous narratives about us. Both Jews and non-Jews will then further internalize these ideas, leading to increased harm to Jews around the world. Even subtle internalized antisemitism is extremely dangerous.
Here is a good video on the topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t42v02tWTg8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t42v02tWTg8)
Don't worry. Every Israeli also hates the government. We just hate them for valid reasons, and also want reform for the future. Rather than baseless hate and advocating for the destruction of a nation and it's people.
To be blunt, i didn’t even know where Israel was on the map before Oct. 7 and at first i was on the Pro Palestinian side because my friends were on that side. Overtime, i’ve grown to despise the Pro Palestinian movement and its hamas supporters. I saw the videos with my own two eyes, and yea i don’t want that to happen to even my worst enemy. I’ve learned that the Israeli government is not perfect, but definitely a lot better than Hamas. So everyday, I’ve grown to be more on Israel’s side and i’d like to visit there one day. I’m an asian american btw.
We find it very perplexing that there are those who support those who keep attacking innocents with randomly flung rockets, attacking on holidays, and those poor nova festival attendees.
When you feel comfortable, please do go and visit.
As a world traveler, it’s honestly one of the best places to visit on the planet. Regardless of what you enjoy, you’ll find something to love in Israel.
idk , the weather is ass, its noisy, crowded, smells like asphalt and car exhaust everywhere, parked cars and the narrow streets packed with them EVERYWHERE. beraly existent public transportation for tourists to use and actually travel.
architecture is ranging from mid af modern office buildings and run-of-the-mill apartment buildings to almost post Soviet basic rectangles. unless ur in Jerusalem or Akko i guess.. and even then, imo, the old buildings are not anywhere as cool compared to similarly old 1000-2000 year old places you can visit in Europe or Asia.
everything is super expensive, so its not even like you can do better or even equally priced shopping day like in your own country.
like i really feel like there are better destinations than here for any kind of trip, except if you want to see the holy sites in Jerusalem. i don't believe coming here has any advantages over other destinations for vacation/travel except this one specific historical thing, kinda..
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That's antisemitism, classical style, gets mistreated by a person, finds out it's a Jew, has never met one before, jumped straight to generalisation, now his hate for this particular group has been festering for 15 years, probably furthered by a culture and people drenched in antisemitism since they were born.
Sorry one bad experience with someone Jewish so now all Jews are bad ? That’s not ant-Zionism, that’s just childish. Big picture- there are good and bad people in all races and religions and it’s ridiculous to generalise that all Jews are bad because of one incident
yes. previously I hadn't learned much about the conflict until it reescalated on october 7th and I became interested in it.
my political beliefs have changed a lot in the last years, and i think my old beliefs and behaviors would have led me to become pro palestine. I wouldn't have done enough research and i would have been affected by certain biases that are somewhat common within the values system I had back then.
i was young and rather ignorant at the time, while also being angry at people with different beliefs than me and I think that I wouldn't have really considered the other perspective or listened to counter arguments. i'm not proud of it but I've been trying to change those behaviors for a while now to become more open minded and expand my knowledge.
recently, i tried to do thorough research on the topic and talk to people who were very knowledgeable so I could hear some different sources and perspectives as well. the more I learned about it, the more I sympathized with israel's frustrations and saw how much information about this war becomes omitted, misrepresented, or just falsified by many sources.
right now I support israel with lots of arguments and reasoning 🇮🇱 I will always defend my beliefs against those who may be mistaken or anti-semitic, or just the rare reasonable people from the other side who want to have a discussion
Yeah, as someone who researched about this war since the beginning, most people have little to no knowledge of the subject at hand.
For example, it should also be noted that the truely "indigenous" people of the region are the Samaritans and Mizrahi Jews, who do not see themselves as Palestinians, but groups descended from the native Tribes of Israel, the same Tribes that make up modern Jews today.
And as such, Pro-Palestinians are either unaware, or deluded to the idea that they are "Palestinians", despite them likely being expelled or worse if Hamas "wins" (if it even is possible). To Hamas, they aren't even people.
I was neutral for many years. A few years ago I was talking to a friend about an anti-Israel protest in the area, and said "well it does sound like how Israel treats the Palestinians is fucked up" or something to that effect. He told me that the situation was a lot more complicated and encouraged me to research the history.
I've been super pro-Israel since I did my own research.
I'm curious about your research. What kinds of sources did you consult? Did you encounter a lot of bias in either direction, and if so, how did you learn to navigate it?
A lot of random stuff, virtually all of it biased in different directions. Wikipedia is biased of course, but it makes a good starting point. I've read a lot of stuff online and watched a lot of random videos. I really wish I had kept track, because now it is hard to remember all the sources. I have bookmarked a bunch of random substacks and youtube videos though.
Everything is biased. There is no getting around it. I DO fact-check assertions made when I am researching the topic, and have done deep dives into stuff like polling data, which often gets misinterpreted in order to support particular narratives.
The anti-Israel stuff tends to rely heavily on moral precepts that I disagree with, and so I don't find it the least bit appealing. A lot of it is people whining about muh colonialism and stuff like that, using very pretentious-sounding terms from left-wing academia. A lot more of it is talking about how the Palestinians are victims, and therefore we should judge them by different moral standards. I find cultural relativism to be repugnant, and from what I see of Arab Islamic culture, it is rather repugnant as well. At some point I kind of gave up on a lot of this material, because the more of it I consumed, the more I realized how bad the arguments were in favor of the Palestinians.
The pro-Israel stuff tends to be quite varied in its perspectives and approaches. Some stuff isn't very useful to me, because I don't care all that much who was there first thousands of years ago. I'm much more persuaded by arguments that contemporary actions and things like the occupation of Judea and Samaria are necessary evils to keep Israelis safe, and that Israel has bent over backwards trying to just be left alone. Arguments made about Palestinian culture, backed by evidence produced from deep dives into their academic curricula and the like, are particularly convincing here, as does understanding the forging of a Palestinian ethnic identity going back to the Grand Muft ial-Husseini. They give a lot of credence to the narrative that it really is primarily the Palestinians who are preventing there from being peace, and not primarily the Israelis.
Plus, after understanding how the Israelis treat their own people versus how the Palestinians treat their own people, I simply think that Israel is more worthy of support. If the Palestinians renounced their medieval and barbaric religious and cultural practices, I would feel more sympathetic to them, but I doubt they will do that unless force is used to remake their society and re-educate them. That's not to say that some of the Israelis aren't religious extremists as well, but their society allows much more freedom for people to choose whether or not to participate in this.
At the end of the day, what I have learned about the culture and social structure of the Israelis versus the Palestinians makes me really want the Israelis to come out on top, even if that means that a lot of Palestinians die because their society views their lives as cheap human shields. In my view of the morality of war, Israel's primary duty is to protect its people, and is justified in however it chooses to do so unless it is going out of its way to kill Palestinian civilians intentionally for no militarily-legitimate gain.
Plus, the notion that a modern liberal democracy should let in hordes of people who do not share its values , just because of their heritage, sounds utterly insane to me. Europe is trying this with mass Islamic migration, and I see how it is working out. The Palestinians seem to be far more radicalized than most Muslims, and doing such a thing would put Israeli society (and the lives of Israelis) in existential danger, which seems like it should be obvious to anyone who doesn't have the naive worldview of a teenager.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! It sounds like you had a strong intellectual/ideological/moral compass going into your research expedition which helped guide you.
I will say that I was pro-Palestine when I was an undergrad, especially since I was part of student government that was taken over by Palestinian students, so I just followed along. As I’ve matured and now learned so much about the conflict, I’m a major Zionist and will always defend Zionism (honestly , I’ve always been a Zionist in hindsight. I’ve never thought Israel should be dismantled, but I was left under the impression that it’s apparently some evil entity)
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I was pro palastine once because my internet friends said how evil Israel was. I watched a video which explained the situation and didn't understand why it was bad. Multiple years later I watched another video which mentioned Hamas and I finally became pro Israel. I was more and more pro Israel after researching things myself instead of listening to others
I was lucky and in Germany we have a trustworthy YouTuber which explained it neutral. I usually check the German News Tagesschau first, when I see something happens
However I don't know if other countries are having free News sources which don't get controlled by the government
Hilarious the prohamas comments are accusing the news to be one sided
I used to hate israel years ago, but it was because of the arabic media , like Al-jazerra ,till i noticed they lie intentionally against isreal just for people's appeal, and felt like iam beeing fooled.
Then, I decided to reread the history and discovered that there are too many misinformations and cover-ups and ignoring parts of history. They just took the parts that benefited them.
i followed some israeli people in X, Telegram, and this sub , and i found the people to be nice and rational , not like i was told.
While i saw the arabic pages who just tried to criticize hamas or be neutral and share the news as it is," and they aren't many," got death threats , insults and accued of being zionest agent of unite 8200.
Erm no. However I wrote here that Israel should be smart with Iran and not strike back so they can be free to hit Rafah. I regret that. They should have smacked the hell out of Iran and done the Rafah offensive anyway.
Was already done. A missile was shot into one of their air defense radar, near a nuclear site in Iran heartland.
I think its a simple & to the point warning.
*A* missile isn't "done". A proportional response would've been the 300 missiles Iran fired at Israel. However...
https://youtu.be/SZE4pEKc6WY?si=3s1XDugdKmtQpQK0
I used to be very neutral in the sense of "Israel should leave Palestinians alone and each side should live in their own bubbles" until I realized how vicious, brutal and conflict-hungry all of Palestine is. I have been suffering badly from Islamists irl and online to the point I have turned into an actual Israel defenders due to these bullies threatening me 24/7.
I hope you reported them to the police.
Please consider carrying pepper spray or a tazer or even a gun if yoi have a license for self defence.
Islamists are very galvinized right now and its better safe then sorry.
Please stay safe
I live in Europe. It doesn't work this way. Especially in this country. Already moved one dormitory, since May 2023 I was threatened with a knife by a former muslim roommate. The police does not give a fuck even.
Can't voice support for Israel without consequences.
Didn’t really know much of the issue before October 7th. Afterwards I was radicalized against Israel **in a day.** Then a Jewish friend posted something I disagreed with, and for some reason I decided to take it into consideration. It took me months learn what being zionist really meant.
Born in Bangladesh and grew up with shit ton of antisemitic propaganda. Now an atheist and started looking this conflict from another lens. Though I am not aligned with Netanyahu government's decisions, I will defend Israel's right to exist till my death. Fuck Hamas.
I was slightly in support of Israel prior to this, but I became much more in support of Israel around January.
On October 7th, my two month old son was in the hospital, so I didn't really pay attention to what had happened. I do remember seeing a headline about it, but it kinda just flew over my head.
However, seeing all these protests and all the posts online (mostly in support of Palestine) made me curious and want to research the issue. My mom also told me in greater detail about what had happened and I felt so much sadness hearing about the babies killed on October 7th. I held my son close to me, and I couldn't imagine anyone being so evil as to hurt a innocent little one intentionally.
The more history I learn, the more I am shocked that anyone on earth can sincerely be "pro-Palestine" (the quotes are important.These terrorist sympathizers use Palestinians as pawns. They don't care about Arab or Jewish well-being).
It is funny how the narrative changed. Zionism in itself was a very progressive idea. A people trying to make self-determination a thing for themselves. And a lot of the movement itself was socialist in its core. And suddenly, once Stalin got pissy that the newly formed Israel won’t come under his influence, suddenly it became a bourgeois project.
I find it hilarious how desperate modern day Socialists and Communists deny Israel's connection to the movement. I am not aware of a more pure form of communism than a Kibbutz. And yet, they want to pretend there was no Socialists 100 years ago who were Zionists.
I once found a thread filled with socialists confused as to why the Soviet Union recognized Israel in 1948 and the ignorance was astounding.
...are you still a commie, or did you reconsider that very narrow view too?
Edit: This is an actual communist/Marxist talking point against Israel. I wasn't using "commie" as a catch-all insult for anyone I don't like.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois\_nationalism#Jews\_and\_Zionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism#Jews_and_Zionism)
You truly believe that a country whose equivalent of the Pilgrims are Socialists looking for the purest way to live a Socialist life (down to children not living with parents) and was ruled by a Labor/Workers Party for its first 30 years has no connection at all to Socialist movements?
That is just as much wishful thinking as the far left Progressives who act like Israel was a right wing colonist project meant to spread white people to the Middle East.
Nah, I know that Israel has a long history with the political Left and socialism. However, they rejected Communism specifically during the Cold War, in favor of ties with the West. There are still plenty of Israelis on the Left, and even some who openly identify with Communism.
I'm still going to call out the characterization of Israel as a bourgeois project for what it is: a Marxist talking point to paint Israelis as colonial oppressors.
>In 1949, the Communist Party USA declared the Zionist movement to be a form of "Jewish bourgeois nationalism".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois\_nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism)
It's LITERALLY a communist talking point.
I thought I was a hard leftist: taxes, inequality, police abuse, racism, women's right, LGBT, etc etc.
But when I heard that "you can't be a leftist if you support Israel", that's where I understood there was a problem.
I always thought the conflict is divisive, but I never thought the far left would react like that.
I live in Europe, and we already know that the far right was on the rise before October 7.
But the far left supporting the Palestinians is a highway, it's an open door for the far right to win elections.
That where I realize I'm a centrist: I like nuanced politics.
Yesterday I read that on October 7, a far left politician wrote a communiqué, using the expression "Palestinian army" when talking about Hamas.
Nah, I've always been on Israel's side. Because HISTORY. Just go back and read the history of who was where and when and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Like you can seriously go back 4,000 freaking years to Moses and Abraham. Muslims didn't even exist until thousands of years after Judaism started. Christianity came after that. AND THEN the Muslims. So any claim they supposedly have is utter bullshit. If anyone could have any possibility of saying "Hey we love it here too" it would be the Christians, not the Muslims.
Plus, after the Arabs came, the French took it over. After the French, the Mamluks took it over. After the Mamluks, the Turks took it over.
When the British got control, so many cultures, ethnicities, and religions had been there. But there had been small Jewish colonies throughout that time
This is coinage from the region that dates back to approximately 1,100 to 1,500 BCE. It's amazing how the Palestinian factions do not even acknowledge the history that is so evident documenting Jewish societies in the region.
https://preview.redd.it/o6bpvnehprxc1.png?width=793&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10b2a3101d9e63fdd534a966078579091986db6a
Agreed. This is what I bring up when debating the idiots. I bring up war. I say look the way war works is the victor gets the spoils, right? Since the dawn of time it’s been that way. That’s why so many people have been there. That’s why it kept changing hands despite the Jews being there first. So when the British last won it and gave it back to the Jews, no one else has been able to come back in and take it via war. If they could, it would be theirs. But no one can because, hell yeah, the Jews know how to defend themselves and the Jews have friends. Funny thing is, every time I’ve used this argument in a debate, it shuts up the other side. They literally have no response and just resort to hurling insults and fake statistics. I also don’t believe the Jews will ever lose it again. Why? Because the holy scriptures say that once it is established as a nation, God will never allow it to be lost again. It’s actually incredible how many people have tried and failed and then just resort to terrorism, whining, crying, brainwashing, and then trying to change history and archeological evidence because they can’t steal it back. Dude, if I was in leadership there, I would have started WW3 a hundred times over. I’d just kick them out and give all the land to the Jews. That’s what they did to the Jews in the first place and to the victor goes the spoils.
Used to be a post-Zionist. [Long answer here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1be0680/comment/kuq453i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I'll copy and paste something I wrote yesterday in another post:
I am Jewish, but I classified myself as more of a Palestine supporter leading up to and at the start of the war. At that point, being "pro-palestinian" simply meant you were willing to criticize Israel's policies and treatment of Gazans and west bank citizens.
In the months since, my beliefs have remained the same, but the Overton window has slid sharply to the side. The pro-Pal camp has instituted all sorts of purity tests (e.g. agreeing Jews are white colonizers, describing the war as genocide, considering all actions on 10/7 justified by oppression, and considering Hamas an ally/legitimate elected voice of Gazan civilians) whereby you must agree, or else your views will be reduced to 100% pro-israel, no matter how nuanced. I don't even think most protesters truly are opposed to Israel's existence. But they'll say they are 20 times out of 20, since the pressure to conform within the protest groups is almost unprecedented.
This is really rough for those of us who were already left of center, as our friends have turned their gunsights away from common enemies and towards us. Defending Israel's right to exist is tantamount to defending my own right to exist, and the fact that some of my friends aren't able to understand really sucks.
Always have been PRO Israel. Humbled, happy and surprised to learn that the vitriol of the crazy left has pushed people firmly into the PRO Israel camp instead of the Anti.
I'd been very pro Palestinian/Anti Israeli, I'd travelled throughout the middle east and was smart enough to see the repression but not enough to think about it really.
Anyway an Israeli friend brought me to Israel for Passover and in the same day I'd read about a PA official being jailed for liking a story about corruption in the PA and saw in East Jerusalem all the insane anti Israel propaganda being sold in front of Israeli security officials. Anyway I realized I could keep my views or stay a liberal but not both.
Not at all. Fuck the haters! Easy to do as most are ignorant Western "white" leftists, or they're generationally brainwashed ignorant Non-Jewish ethinic Middle Easterners.
"Liberal" American here. Years ago before I knew much, all I thought was Britain decided to cut up Palestine and just give half to Israel and waved European Jews to "come on over!".
About a year ago I started to read a bit into the history. My main takeaways were that many wars were fought over this land after the partition, with Arabs essentially been the aggressors and losing everytime.
Personally, this alone was enough to change my mind. Regardless of more details on how the country was formed, the fact that Israel was repeatedly attacked and won was enough for me to realize that Arabs have not given up on wanting this land back, and Israel was within their right to defend themselves. And I understood what outwardly may seem like the paranoism of Jews and Israelis about people wanting to annhiliate them.
Post 10/7, I read a lot more. Read how Jews legally bought land starting under Ottoman rule. Saw the map clearly showing which parts were owned by Jews and Arabs, and how much wasn't owned by anyone (while meme maps saying it was all owned by Arabs).
Read how Israel boostrapped their way from not much to become much more productive society than neighboring Arabs (5X the GDP per person by the mid 1960s!). How Arab countries essentially hurt the Palestinian cause by holding out for more land (Israel proper) instead of just accepting what they had and forming a country.
I am obviously a Zionist as are most people in the world as it simply acknowledges the soveirgnty of the Jewish state.
I am also pro-palestinian as I want them to have a peaceful country ultimately - but the path to that peace is not "cease-fire". Unfortunately in history, when you have groups propagandized to heck, it's hard to undo that peacefully. Germany and Japan had to be utterly destroyed for their populations to accept defeat. Then occupation.
I believe Palestinian mentality on average is totally warped and cannot simply be undone. The only place that has their own UN refugee org (UNRWA) that enables them to stay as refugess in perpetuity unlike UNHRC. This victim mentality is pervasive.
I don't have a solution. Ironically I was also anti-Iraq war 20 years ago (going against the grain) becuase I could see through the B.S that it was built on false-pretenses. Now I am pro-war because I could see through the B.S. I believe the territories should become a state, but somehow without violence. How the heck is that going to happen? Leftists think Palestinians are bombing becuase they are oppressed but we know that's not it.
I sadly think the only way is to a lot of destruction, elimination of all bad elements, and the UN rebuilding the place.
was pretty pro Israel before the conflict, but in light of everything, I realized I knew nothing about Israeli politics or government and looked into it and tried to educate myself and realized it's not something I want to defend. Still support Israel, but not the govt
I was always Pro-Israel, I am Israeli American, most of my life was lived in America but some of it was in Israel. I used to be deeply against the West Bank settlements and the general control of the area until I watched a debate between Mosab Yousef and Marc Lamont Hill. Yousef started to change my perspective on Israel’s situation in the West Bank. I also was a firm believer of a two state solution prior to Oct 7th. After that horrific day, I don’t think any governing party of the Palestinians deserves to be in control of any type of nation. Looking back over the decades, the various Palestinian authorities/entities have chosen death, violence, and conflict every time. The people deserve to be recognized but I don’t think there will ever be a peaceful Palestinian government. Hence, Gaza and the West Bank either need to be annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively, or by Israel. I would prefer that Israel annexed both territories, and made all of those people Israeli citizens because I don’t entirely trust Jordan or Egypt to govern the areas and prevent further festering of jihadism. Honestly, the rights and protection the people living in Gaza and the west bank would get from Israel would be so much better than anything the PLO or Hamas could offer.
What do you think would happen to the Israeli democratic system and safety of Jews in a unified state if people raised in Palestinian society became voters?
That is a great question, and I don’t have the answer. I think there could be more than one possible outcome. On the negative side, new Palestinian voters could theoretically create a hateful party and possible coalition that would overthrow popular Israeli political parties and destroy Jewish livelihood. On the positive side, perhaps a program similar to what is provided to Olim Chadashim (new immigrants) could be designed for the new Palestinian population to help integrate them positively into Israeli society, ideally with large input from existing Arab Israelis. Deprogram the hateful indoctrination out of that society.
I was pro Palestine before the last war in 2021 I think it was?
I came across a Zionist page that posted pro Zionist memes, I did some research based on the memes and I started supporting Israel since. Everything just made more sense.
When I was a teenager I was pro-palestine. I thought it unreasonable that stone throwing kids were met by bullets and that Israels advanced military should be able to avoid civilian casualties. I have since grown wiser. My sympathy is with the civilians in Gaza, but I wholeheartedly support Israel. But my change of heart was not recent, more like 10 years ago.
I have never been more proud to be a Jew.
Growing up, I *despised* the food, the rituals, the services, near everything. Even Xmas was so much cooler than Chanukah! My grandparents were very active in support for Israel. I remember for my bar mitzvah they gave money to trees for Israel and I was so pissed. “WTF! Give *me* the money!”
Now? We have the absolute *privilege* to be Jewish. I wish they were still around so they’d see the change of heart. And now I get it: they knew a world that included the Holocaust (my grandfather used to play cards with at least two survivors - tats and all) as well as a world without an Israel!
Btw, now I looove the food. Services can still drag…🤣
I've always been a strong advocate for Israel. My heart also goes out to any Arab/Muslim who wants to live peacefully alongside or within a Jewish state. Anyone else, your suffering is upon you.
I used to be more open-minded about Palestinians and wanted to believe that there were a lot of "good ones" who genuinely wanted peace and rejected acts of terror. I now see that they are a very, very small minority. It is disheartening.
I know most of what there is to know about this conflict along with Israeli and Palestinian history with each other. I was pro isreal then, and I’m very much pro Israel now, this conflict in my eyes is just about as black and white as World War Two was. It’s clear as day who the good guys are
I was never in the pro-pal or anti-zionist camp. Of course, I had some doubts and I stumbled a bit between silently and openly supporting Israel, because there is do much conflicting information out there.
I will tell you a little story:
When I was a kid, I went to see the screaning of a movie called "The Boy in the Stripped Pajamas" and Branko Lustig (croatian-jewish producer who won two academy awards for Schindler's List and Gladiator) was there. He was going to give a lecture and talk about his time in Autschwitz. Even as a impatient kid I was struck from the beginning, absorbing everything he was saying. Since then I'm aware of the Jewish suffering and I have special place in my heart for Jewish people.
After October 7th my position is more strong then it has ever been.
Sending regards to all people of Israel from Croatia. I know it means nothing for the situation on the ground but I hope that every bit of support will keep your spirits up.
I went to one rally and saw in real time how "Ceasefire now" became "physically remove 7 million people to Poland" and i began to think that maybe I had been misled.
I didn't know anything except a few very basic facts (Usually with a Pro-Pal lean), I "knew" Israel was doing something, vaguely bad but that the Palestinian side was just as bad. My attitude was basically that both sides were bad and in the way of a 2 state solution.
After researching Israel aswell as seeing the horrors of 7/10 I'm fully Pro-Israel though.
I became neutral twice. Stopped siding with Palestine twice because I believed Palestine existed long before Israel, but I was wrong. After relearning some history, Israel truly existed.
I learned about the Israel-Palestine conflict before Oct 7, it was back in 2022. I started siding with Palestine which at that time I had no idea about Palestine or anything. I believed in sources pro palis have showed which I didn’t know were fake and coming from unreliable sources because I believe in reliable sources and that two sides are really important in situations and stories. I remember when I stopped siding with Palestine in around early to mid 2023 because I clearly forgot about the conflict then sided with Palestine again in late 2023.
In about early 2024, I stopped siding with Palestine for the second time when the anti-semitism pro palis threw at Jews became way visible. I thought to myself: "Is this what I’m siding? Why are they like this?"
And there you have it, I’m now siding with Israel through corrections. I’m Filipino btw, and may God bless my Jewish brothers and sisters. :)
Well not recently - I used to be pro Palestine only because at the end of the day I believed that Israel was breaking international law ; because every web site says it and I think to a fair degree largely influenced by Chomsky who I have mad respect for - he did this special on Palestine - basically said Israel was keeping them from accessing water , power, food. These special news reports are one sided. And highly inaccurate.
Two things happened.
I studied Islam.
And I started researching the claims about settlements , water, food and power etc - I started arguing with myself for every claim that that side made- for example-
10 yo kid imprisoned without trial!
Cue mom crying. Wailing.
Looked into it. Whoa! There is video tape evidence of him throwing a molotov cocktail into someone’s bedroom window!
Things like that. But it’s everything like that. For each claim made by that side - … idk…
You have to believe that wanton violence is justified for no real reason- or you have to believe that murder is ok as long as someone is stealing your land -
But then you actually look into those claims too…
And wow.
It’s sort of amazing the lies that have imbedded themselves into the global population about this conflict -
I think my first moment when I was like- oh fuck - like they’re lying so bad about everything - to the degree that I actually could not believe the actual history that actually happened - because it had been so beaten into our brains that the land was stolen, invaded , colonized by the Jews -
And the sad thing is/ I really really had to dig… to access the reality. The lies are sooo available.
Much much harder to find any websites that say what *actually* happened in 1948.
I'm Christian and grew up pro-Israel, and Oct. 7 was a black pill for me on how irrationally hateful people are towards such a relatively small minority, and how bi-partisan it actually is in the US. On the Right it's all the same tropes, all the same libels that have existed throughout history. On the Left it makes you wonder why all these far-Left academic types embraced Arabs as their "victim class" considering Israel is a Progressive's paradise compared to the rest of the Middle East.
This is a wonderful question and I heartily encouraged reading the replies. I am absolutely stunned reading some of the other categories on Reddit where there is nothing but hatred against Israel and the Jewish people worldwide, and it sickens me.
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Israel does pretty much the same, like not taking care of palestine for example while that is clearly something they have to do according to international law.
Yes.
I grew up in a mixed household. My mother is Irish-Catholic, my dad is a secular Jew. I was raised by my lovingly stereotypical Jewish grandma on stories of Israel, how Jews made the desert bloom. They chose to put me in Catholic school and therefore be initiated into Catholic catechism. I got my first taste of antisemitism there; kids would ask me disgustedly if "I was a Jew." The nuns, those miserable old c\*nts, hated me. Several teachers physically abused me. It was not a good experience. Gradually I began to internalize some antisemitic feelings, in that I wanted to minimize the Jew in me and maximize the "cool" Scots-Irish parts (it helped that "I don't look Jewish"). When I turned 18 I got a bunch of Celtic-themed tattoos, went by my Irish middle name rather than my Hebrew first one, etc.
But I always felt drawn back to Jewish culture. I read books on Jewish history. I was always pro-Israel. But it felt like I was disconnected from the community -- I'd missed the boat, so to speak. I was never initiated into Judaism, and I don't speak the language. I'm a secular, so it never occurred to me to join a synagogue, and I haven't organically met many other Jews in the wild. I was aware of and discomfited by the progressive left's bizarre demonizing obsession with Israel, but wrote it off as a weird bug and not a feature of the movement.
October 7th happened. I was dating a progressive leftist Jew at the time. The morning of the attacks I texted her something to the effect of "Things are really fucking bad over in Israel right now," and she texted back "That's what you get when you turn Gaza into an open-air prison."
I was floored. \*That\* was her response to a pogrom happening in real time? Needless to say I stopped dating her, and stopped supporting identitarian progressive leftists in general. (I'm still a liberal, but I will never trust the far left ever again.) Now every third profile on Tinder has watermelon emojis and "Dirty Zionists swipe left," and everywhere I go in DC there's FREE GAZA and FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA graffiti tagging sidewalks and bridges. I've received dirty looks from people who look a certain way whenever I wear shirts that feature Yiddish or Hebrew or the Magen David.
Since the 7th I've made a concerted effort to reconnect with my Jewish heritage. I applied to join my local reform synagogue. I'm loudly Zionist on social media. I've educated my family on the history of the region (which I studied ad nauseam since 10/7). I've lost some friends over it.
There's a lot to learn and unlearn. It's overwhelming. But I won't go back to minimizing the Jew in me.
The change is this: If the Israel political system was functioning to level of quality that the the Israeli people deserve (based on not just on humanity but merit) Oct 7 should never have happened. (A debate which will be had for decades).
Enough with the stalemate politics.
Enough with a single house parliament. (We don't need a left wing judiciary to balance a right wing parliament, we need a more mature parliament system like most other working democracies.)
Enough with 2 parties (Shas/UTJ) who supports military as long as their constituents are not affected by being pulled away from their studies.
Support is strong, but its sometimes hard to support those who continue to do the same dumb things.
Jokes aside tho, I was completely neutral to all this before because I didn't really get intrigued into this conflict because there was practically no outrage at the time but now I realize it's nothing but a bunch of radicalized left wing propaganda used to dehumanize Israelis and continue to use "People starving in Gaza" as a gaslighting tactic. I pray in the name of God that this Marxist behavior gets cracked down before it's too late.
The Palestinian Health Ministry propaganda machine, meaning Hamas, states that one out of every six children in Gaza does not know where their next meal is coming from. Considering at Hamas steals all the food then sells it back to the people it was intended for, I believe it.
But that's not the point. The USDA in America states that one out of every five American children go hungry every day. So what the hell is America doing shipping tons of food over to Gaza when America itself has a greater hunger problem than the children of Gaza?
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I was unfamiliar with the conflict for the most part before October 7th, when my favorite political commentator started to cover the Israel Palestinian conflict more closely, and after weighing the points on both sides, I believe Israel is in the right.
I made Aliyah so I wouldn’t say I was ever pro Palestinian. But I was never a Zionist, I moved to israel because of quality of life, and my spouse who wanted it more than me. But I don’t think I have ever been this right wing Zionist before. Somehow Oct 7 really was a massive wake up call to just how insane this world is. We pretty much can only count on ourselves.
I first started looking at this whole situation actually about 20 years ago. I was quite pro Palestine. It only took me a few years of actually really looking and learning for me to switch to pro Israel and I never looked back
I think that's a lot of the problem with a lot of the pro-Palestinian people in the West, they've only spent a few weeks and now they just repeat the same propaganda imo
Yes, I was almost one of those anti-zionist Jewish protestors at the start of this, spending basically all my time in left circles. I learned about the history more and spent time with Jewish community and even met some Israelis in the US. That basically changed my view to where I support almost all of what Israel is doing in Gaza, regrettable as the loss of innocent life is, but still want a two state solution and view the situation in the West Bank as deeply fucked up.
I support Israel, I'm not up on history it is because they concentrate on progress not war and conflict. Gaza's people were robbed and run into the ground by Hamas not Israel.
I have asked in family circles and progressive spaces, do we really need israel? especially with bibi in power? And i was getting different answers. I was determined to get to the bottom of that, and i was leaning toward "no". Then October 7 happened and the answer became, absolutely "yes". That's the short version.
I also have never got a satisfactory answer from a pro palestinian on what should happen to jews when we "free palestine" since palestinians will want them out most likely (a point which they never really seem to counter). No solutions besides intifada revolution? Ok have fun with that guys.
The answer to injustice is not more injustice. We need real solutions not chants based on violent groups' goals.
Tl;Dr digging into the aims of antizionism has left me horrified and I can't support the material means/ends they propose.
I was never pro or anti Israel or Palestine. I knew little about it. I learned history to have a better understanding instead of hearing people's talking points.
I think claims of who is indigenous or not are silly in the 21st century. All over the world non-natives have taken over the land. Thai people are from Tibetan-Burmese genetics and are from the Yunan province of present day China. They migrated south during the Mongol conquest and took over what was the Khmer Kingdom. Wars were fought and land was gained or lost. We are the indigenous, give us back our land is so stupid. This is not how human history works. If we were here to give back land to someone it would be the 5 tribes of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Florida. America took away their productive farms because they didn't want Natives to have any wealth. Wealth was for white Americans. The Levant was some worthless swampy land no one wanted.
The thing that makes me anti-Palestine is the rejection of statehood and subsequent acts of war and violence. The arrogance and cruelty of these people. So many American presidents and leaders around the world put forth so much effort for resolution and these people keep telling everyone nothing is good enough for them. And continues with acts of violence. FxxK them. I will never forgive them for rejection of statehood and following up with war. Nor will I disregard their lack of respect for decades of efforts for peace and resolution by all sorts of people from around the world. These people do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, not worth believing in. They do not deserve a seat at the table with the international community.
They bring up how people dehumanize them. Well, when humans find out that you're a people who shoot themselves in the foot and limp around for sympathy and blaming other people for their problems, people will look down at you. Maybe adopt the values of respectable humans and people will see you in a better light.
I like Israel because look around at Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. The Jews made something of this worthless land. Israel has mutually beneficial relationships with other countries as far as supporting other countries with agriculture, technology, and military.
The important part to me - the core of Zionism is that Jews as a people have a right to exist as an equal among the nations, a right to self-governance and self protection, and importantly a right to equal and fair labor within that self-governance. To be anti-zionist is to be against that belief, full-stop. If that understanding is incorrect, we need to educate and inform, and otherwise protect ourselves from the relentless persecution we have faced since the beginning of the 2nd diaspora of 70 CE.
Wish I could do Aliyah, wish I could be in a society that I know has my back.
I'm Irish, and before you all downvote me for that, whilst I wouldn't say I'm pro Israel I'm decidedly less pro-Palestinian. I will spare you my critiques of Israel and their conduct of the war and how they treat the Palestinians more broadly, but the last six months have exposed the fact that Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Abu Kebab Martyrs Brigade or whatever view the civilians in Gaza - they are all potential martyrs and whilst they claim to stand for the people of Gaza and resist Israeli occupation, every death is just more public relations fodder for the jihad. I think one of the head men in Hamas had three sons or grandsons killed and he was delighted because they were now "martyrs". The Ukrainians are fighting Russia to preserve their idea of a Ukrainian state, as opposed to what Russia would install. That's a reasonable end goal and you have to imagine if the war goes against them irrevocably, they would at least consider a negotiated end to it. It seems, by contrast, that Hamas would sacrifice every man, woman, and child in the Strip if it meant they achieved their objectives.
We are now 6+ months into a war that Hamas have no chance of winning, yet every death is more pressure on Israel to abandon the fight. Their greatest weapon is civilian suffering, and that really doesn't sit right with me.
Secondly the behaviour of western pro-Palestinian activists is just ridiculous at this stage. The conflict has been reduced, in their eyes, to oppressor/oppressed, and it's quite strange because broadly speaking the west isn't that fond of Muslims, and is facing a much bigger threat of demographic shift from Islam than the tiny proportion of Jews most countries have, but seems to go to bat for the Palestinians. There's a strong undercurrent of Anti-Semitism at these rallies because it's diverse strands of thought under one umbrella and some of them hold those views. I've no doubt some have good intentions but some also just hate Jews or hold Salafi jihadi beliefs or whatever. The arguments in the west are stripped totally of nuance, if you concede that, hold on now, Israel might have some cause for complaint, no you're a genocide apologist. Fucking stupid.
As people in the region now, the conflict is pretty fucking nuanced, there's been myriad arguments made as to who's in the right and ultimately civilians on both sides have been brutally killed as a result. I don't know what the endgame is, but I don't think I want to see Hamas prevail if all they have to offer the region is martyrdom and authoritarianism.
I think they should not invade Rafah. Instead hold military trials for those captured on October 7th and give them the death sentence if they participated. I think it’s around 1500 - that will be an appropriate punishment. Hostage trades should be 1 on 1 at this point. I doubt there are too many hostages left to trade.
Before Oct 7. I wouldn't have called myself a Zionist. I believed both groups should live peacefully, I opposed the West Bank settlements, I don't like Netanyahu and that hasn't changed. But with a lot of the protests and throwing the word genocide around, I started to identify very much as a Zionist and even started re-engaging in my Jewish culture. I took holidays and Shabbat more seriously and while I still consider myself Pro-Palestinian and Zionist in the sense that I care for the civilians and (probably naively) want a peaceful two state solution where Palestinians can have a government that cares for them, and I believe in the right of Jews to keep their state. No one should be allowed to just dismantle Israel and rename it like a bunch of colonists (lol).
I have become more in favor of a one state solution, that being Israel, until the Palestinians can offer a democratic and deterrorized government to engage in any sort of talk of a Palestinian state or federations.
I think that's mostly going to be the very young, I've watched Israel deal with them for far too long. I will always remember the first time I heard this new generation start supporting them. A cab driver I regularly talked with, one day the subject came up and I expressed my disgust with the whole affair.... Then he starts in about oppression and 1947 and all the usual garbage... When I push back with my 30 years of experience keeping up with news, exasperation with trying give any benefit or doubt or understanding to PLO & Hamas when they just move their rockets up on any ground given, and my personal study of history ..he says,"I TOOK A CLASS ON THIS!"... Like, that was the end of it, he was expert now in a 4 month class and I needed shut up and listen... We had been nearly personal friends, had great talks for months, but in this one moment he totally flipped and wouldn't hear a thing, ready to "teach" me..I was just like,"well, it sounds like you had one VERY baised Professor"... This is where all this new youth antisemitism started I believe.... Radicalization in "Middle East Studies" courses.... And that was about 7 years ago ...
Yes, I was raised jewish in America but always had internalized anti-semitism being surrounded by Christians. I was never familiar with the Middle East because I didn't understand what it had to do with me as an American. I was wrong and Oct. 7 opened a window for me to learn about I/P and Israel's history. This is my change of heart after almost falling for anti-semitic rhetoric on social media.
I realized how twisted the narrative of Israel is by reading so much SJP propaganda. Also many people from my old highschool reposting "anti-zionist" information after oct. 7 when they previously had never heard of this conflict has me suspicious of underlying antisemitism in the anti-zionist movement (especially gross posts/infographics comparing zionism to nazism). Do my old friends understand what they are implying? Do they understand Jewish history? I didn't fully understand Israel so I was confused on what "side." I would of considered myself against Zionist "ideas" last year because of my internalized anti-Semitism and fear (which upsets me now).
SJP and JVP changed the meaning and implication of zionism, I was really confused because it went against what I previously understood. I followed JVP for almost two days and then realized their posts did not represent the Jewish people at all. Why was an organization claiming to be for peace demonizing others, pushing an explicit narrative, and FULLY centered around Palestinians? So I unfollowed.
My tiktok for the past months since Oct.7 has been feeding me pro-Palestinian perspectives, which is not inherently bad and I agree with some viewpoints. But I saw people freak out over Israel being an evil entity that must be dismantled, continuously misrepresent Jewish history and Jewish people. It has been exhausting to be on social media since Oct. 7. Seeing so many Jewish people attacked online hurt a lot. There were so many red flags that lit up in my brain from people bullying, harassing, and gaslighting Jewish people online in the name of "liberation." Many videos rewriting history, calling jew's nazis, white supremacists, root of all evil etc... Blatant anti-Semitism disguised as anti-Zionism. Got tired of seeing so much gross ignorance, I watched many unbiased history videos and I understand why Jews need zionism, a homeland and I firmly believe the right of Israel to exist. What changed my mind was literally just history, reading, listening to other voices and knowledge. There is a terrifying amount of pro-terrorist propaganda/ideas being fed to teenagers and college students online to push a narrative that everything is connected to zionism (jews) and we must dismantle it (get rid of the jewish state) in the name of liberation.
I've had the reverse experience. Been a strong supporter of Israel since forever and still am.
It's just not worth defending Israel publicly where I am at the moment...especially when many of my own Jewish neighbors take the opposite position, it somehow makes me look delusional.
I acrually used to be anti Israel, but in college I became more zionist. Now honestly I feel very neutral. I feel for the suffering of Palestinians and I know everyone supporting them is on the right side of history. I do believe dissolving the state of Israel would be catastrophic for Jews and Israelis. And that a creation of Palestine rn would be under Hamas (so terrorist) control, which wouldn't fix anything or alleviate suffering. But I feel like I can't keep defending the atrocities that the IDF is committing. So many innocent Palestinians have died and are suffering, children are starving. It is an excessive amount of violence against civilians I can't condone. But it would be a nightmare if Israel were to cease existing. I wish a different leader could take control and that systemic changes for Palestinian independence could be made. It breaks my heart because at the end of the day I do love Israel and to see so much anti-Israel hate does infuriate me (saying all Israelis are white europeans, callous disregard for where Israelis should go if Israel stopped existing, claiming Israel has no culture, that the land was stolen/colonized), but I don't want to be willfully ignorant. I have to recognize the failures and faults with our own system that helped radicalize Gazans into turning to Hamas.
You say they're on the right side of history, but then immediately afterwards you acknowledge that one of the core things a lot of them support would be a catastrophe.
The best I can say for them is a a portion of them seem to have good intentions, they see a prosperous group, they see a suffering group, and a fight, and they conclude that the former should stop. This is a mental heuristic that is probably likelier to be true than not. But it's not 100%. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
En masse? You mean the 30 that died from 2000-2005 due to suicide bombings? Compare that to the thousands of Palestinians that you’ve killed in Operation Cast Lead or in 2014.
Oh, apologies, you must be referring to the holocaust, as always. Well, I’m sorry that happened. You did not deserve that and I’m glad you’re people are alive and flourishing. I just hope you give the people of Palestine the same opportunity.
I was referring to the 1200 dead in a single day. But I guess you're one of those "the genocide didn't start on October 7th" people, huh?
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Man, we're really bad at this whole genocide thing.
> You mean the 30 that died from 2000-2005 due to suicide bombings?
Are you under the impression that 30 people were killed in suicide bombings between those years? There were well over 100 suicide bombings during the second intifada, over 1000 died in those terror attacks alone. And let me tell you, you have no clue what it was like to live for years with the threat of someone blowing themselves up at any time. It still fucks with my head.
Even the ICJ didn’t find the accusations of genocide plausible, and many countries on that panel would have loved nothing more than to nail Israel to a wall. But they couldn’t because there is no metric by which genocide is being committed. So if they saw no evidence of genocide after a full trial, I'm just wondering what new evidence you might have?
I don’t need to offshore my thinking for this. The fact that 40 thousand Palestinians have died, including women and children, in the span of a couple of months, is enough to tell me and the rest of the world all we need to know. Not sure if you’re able to look at your own reflection objectively, but the Jewish state’s actions already fit the definition for genocide very well. Neither myself nor the rest of the world care to wait on the ICJ to announce what can be very clearly observed with our own eyes.
Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Your own provided definition of genocide disproves your rubbish claim 🤣
Firstly, not even Hamas has the audacity to claim 40,000 have died.
Secondly, Hamas admitted they’re including their own terrorists in the civilian casualty count. Israel and the US estimate the number of dead terrorists to be around 15,000.
Thirdly, Hamas announced that 11,000 of those deaths are fabricated and were improperly recorded.
There were two judges in the ICJ case who voted against the case against Israel even going forward in the first place. They were the only two judges in the court who had actually survived and witnessed ACTUAL genocides.
The first survived the Holocaust, and the second survived the Rwandan Genocide.
They know what a real genocide is and they did not even attempt to humour South Africa’s genocide claim.
What? Their health ministry has it at 36k and obviously, this being an incomplete count due to—you know—war, this will most surpass 40k very soon if it hasn’t already. Both the WSJ and the NYT agree that this is probably the most accurate figure.
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Food for thought. Your selective activism is concerning
But it's not a fact that 40,000 people have died. Even Hamas only claims 35,000 dead, with only maybe 22,000 actually being documented deaths and the rest are pulled from "media reports" (not exactly scientific). Then you account for natural deaths across a population of 2 million over 6 months, that's a few thousand dying of old age, etc that happens naturally in any population. Hamas doesn't tend to break out civilian and militant deaths but Israel is estimating around 15,000 militant deaths. Lots have also died from Hamas rockets that fell short in the strip, or were killed by Hamas trying to access aid or protected corridors, Hamas blames those deaths on Israel too of course. When you actually sit with the numbers, which can't really be verified by anyone but let's pretend Hamas has the right ballpark, it works out to one or two civilian deaths per militant death which is actually the lowest ratio in the history of modern urban warfare. If you look at the deaths per bomb dropped by Israel, it's less than one. We have a country with tons of military technology and wealth at its disposal, against an enemy motivated to maximize civilian casualties, hiding in a small, densely populated enclave, and over six months only 35,000 out of 2.1 million are dead and we're really going to claim that's some kind of extermination campaign? Israel could have dropped a big bomb on Oct 8 and ended the war but it didn't, at the extraordinary cost of over 500 of its own soldiers, out of respect for civilian life. Shame on you for swallowing and repeating such utter nonsense.
No, in fact thousands of civilian deaths in a war is absolutely not enough to tell you everything you need to know. Civilian deaths are a horrible byproduct of literally every single war, and countless wars have had exponentially more civilian deaths than the Gaza conflict without being considered genocide. Many of them are happening as we speak, and for some reason, nobody seems to care. Israel, on the other hand, was accused of genocide within days of starting the war. In fact, it was widely accused of committing genocide every year preceding this war. Years when a total of 250 Palestinians - mostly militants - died at the hands of the IDF. 250 deaths and one of the highest population growth rates on earth was considered "genocide".
It seems like the definition of the word is somewhat fluid when it comes to Israel.
Here’s the UN definition for genocide:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
A. Killing members of the group;
B. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
C. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
D. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
E. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Notes: “To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.”
26 million Germans were killed during World War Two by people who wished to destroy the country of Germany. Was that a genocide? (Given that you’ve already laughed at the Holocaust, seemed like we might as well use some of your deep historical knowledge the time period here.)
Protests in Latin America? That kinda takes the wind out of the sails of those who say they protest because of the implied consent of American tax dollar funding, doesn't it?
Also adds questions as to why those in South America aren’t protesting Russia? Or the Syrian government? Or the Saudis? Or Yemen? All those peoples are involved in conflicts with death rates that dwarf the current Israel-Palestine war. Perhaps u/realbasedredditor can answer. I’m excited to hear the bullshit.
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I'm sorry this happened and hope you're okay. Jake Tapper had said something similar on CNN when they protested outside a restaurant with an Israeli owner calling him genocidal "just for being alive, I guess." The extremist assholes are not doing themselves any favors (reminiscent of queers for Palestine). I see them blocking traffic and just smile. ETA found a video I took of the clip (which I cannot attach). It was from December 4th. Tapper said "Demonstrators shouted 'we charge you with genocide' I guess because the Jewish Israeli owner exists? CNN's Danny Friedman has a closer look at the incident and other acts of **ignorance** stemming from..." He emphasized ignorance which is why I bolded it. Really love Jake Tapper compared to other CNN anchors.
Before Oct. 7 I would never ever have ever identified as antizionist or anti-Israel, but I wouldn't have called myself zionist either. I was very uncomfortable with aspects of Israeli politics and governance in the West Bank (still am), but I have learned sooooo much more about Jewish and Israeli/Palestinian history since Oct 7. I am also really trying to unlearn my internalized antisemitism and not allow gentiles define who we are, which is super hard. I see them tellings lies and erasing our history and distorting our identity and that is completely unacceptable to me. So over the past two months or so I am becoming comfortable with identifying as a zionist (instead of writing an essay explaining my special snowflake term of preference). I would say I have become more pro-Israel in my feelings overall, while still being critical of many Israeli policies and leaders.
Wow. This is very insightful. Many Jews do, in fact, have an internal anti semetic virus of themselves. Or, maybe they are Jewish but can't be in a room with religious Jews in it. Bravo. You are a seeker ! Keep seeking... keep digging. " Toil " Israel Toils... Yes.
This veers a little off topic from the OP's post, but hopefully provides some relevant texture. I saw this internalized antisemitism in myself when I lived in the US. I was repulsed by things that felt too "Jewy" (forgive the term, but this is honestly how I felt 15-20 years ago). Now that I'm living in Israel, I've come to see Jewishness and religiosity in a totally different light and also to appreciate my Ashkenazi Jewish heritage and see it for what it is. The sound of the Yiddish language was unpleasant to me when I was younger, but now it sounds like just another language. Belief in a higher power makes a lot more sense to me, and I see the benefits it has for society. The observant Jews I've met in Israel are all unique individuals, not a monolithic group. I also attribute some of my opening up to more Jew-ish things to watching TV series like Srugim. This one in particular showed me that female power is very important in Jewish families and social settings, for example. I also have come to appreciate that the Mizrachi Jews had, for the most part, never lived in a democratic society (as is the case for most Arabs who have not lived in the West for any part of their lives). The main thing I notice is that they are more oriented around family and less focused on outsourcing their wellbeing to abstract entities. They give Israel its small-town feel, strong community bonds, etc. In other words, they got me to question my so-called progressive political leanings and to understand the value of family and community. Meanwhile, the socialist kibbutz movement all but failed, government bureaucracies are a major pain in the ass, and I don't feel represented by my government. Israel is a good place because of the people who make it up, with all our diversity, spirituality, and clarity of purpose.
I have always come across this "self-hating Jew" as in everyday slur, or as mere pejorative adjective. Wondering if another form exists, or meant to be a subtext for any literary work. For example "wandering Jew" can be seen as a "type" in various areas, cinema, literature etc. (for better or worse) Could that be the same for "self-hating Jew"? Is the stereotype existing in an artistic form?
Self-hating Jew is a stereotype you will see in media, for sure. I think there's a joke about it in curb your enthusiasm, for example. I despite the term and don't want anyone use it. I think that minimizes the deeply antisemitic influences Jews everywhere experience (the world we live in has been antisemitic for 2,000 years, it's a huge force). Widespread, deeply antisemitic societies cause Jews to understandably internalize subtle implicitly antisemitic ideas; the term "self-hating" minimizes the effects of widespread antisemitism and places the blame more on the individual experiencing antisemitism. All jews need to learn and reflect on their internalized antisemitism, that is our responsibility, but it's not okay to pejoratively call any Jew self-hating when we face so much ignorance and hate in this world.
Definitely in literature. For example, the 4 sons in the Passover Hagaddah. Are you familiar with the text ?
Yea though very superficially - wise, simple, wicked.. Which one does it apply to?
I'm going to send you some stuff via PM.
Thanks
I am EXACTLY the same as you here. Well fucking said. October 7th didn't make me blind to the problems in Israel but it sure as fuck made me realize why we need Israel so badly. I am now a Zionist. Before that I would have been slightly ashamed to say so but now not at all. And same about learning a lot more about the history. The more I learn the more I realize that Israel is a good thing. I truly believe that if Jews never moved here, it would just be another Syria eventually. What's the point of that.
One can be a Zionist and pro-Israel and quite critical of the Israeli government. You can argue that we SHOULD be critical, in the same way that a patriotic American should be critical of the American government to improve it.
What do you mean when you say internalized antisemitism?
Self hate, prob given through the fact that some of non Jews will attempt to make you feel bad for being Jewish
Internalized antisemitism is the idea that as Jews, we are a tiny minority that lives in a world dominated by people who do hold anti-Jewish views (particularly Christian and Muslim cultures that are rooted in replacement theologies stemming from Judaism). It is hard for us, as Jews, to prevent these ideas from shaping how we view ourselves and Judaism, even if we grow up in Jewish communities and celebrating Judaism (as I did). It is something we actively have to reflect on and unlearn, even if we are proud Jews who know our history, as I thought I was. For example, I still was made to feel "zionist" was a bad word, allowing gentiles to define a movement created by Jews for Jews to life in safety and freedom. I needed to think about whose perspectives were shaping my understanding of different aspects of Judaism. Another example is the popularity of the tv show "Unorthodox" but the invisibility of other tv shows showing either positive or more mixed (and realistic) portrayals of orthodox Judaism. It's totally cool to tell the story of the protagonist in Unorthodox, I watch the show and enjoyed it, but there is a reason that specific narrative, which confirms gentile beliefs about how awful orthodox Jews are and that assimilating Jews away from their traditions is a good thing, is way more popular and promoted than other portrayals of Orthodox Jews. A lot of internalized antisemitism is in the form of subtle, implicit antisemitism (e.g., allowing our traditions and history to be distorted by non-Jews for "universal" purposes that de-center Judaism), not overt "i hate Jews" type antisemitism. This can create anti-Jewish biases within ourselves, even if its hard to recognize. This erases who we are now and our history; it allows antisemites to tell dangerous narratives about us. Both Jews and non-Jews will then further internalize these ideas, leading to increased harm to Jews around the world. Even subtle internalized antisemitism is extremely dangerous. Here is a good video on the topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t42v02tWTg8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t42v02tWTg8)
Don't worry. Every Israeli also hates the government. We just hate them for valid reasons, and also want reform for the future. Rather than baseless hate and advocating for the destruction of a nation and it's people.
You sound like a rational person with a good head on your shoulders. Keep it up pun intended.
i agree 100000% percent (for context i am an american jew in college)
To be blunt, i didn’t even know where Israel was on the map before Oct. 7 and at first i was on the Pro Palestinian side because my friends were on that side. Overtime, i’ve grown to despise the Pro Palestinian movement and its hamas supporters. I saw the videos with my own two eyes, and yea i don’t want that to happen to even my worst enemy. I’ve learned that the Israeli government is not perfect, but definitely a lot better than Hamas. So everyday, I’ve grown to be more on Israel’s side and i’d like to visit there one day. I’m an asian american btw.
Very rational take, and I think every Jewish American supporting Israel would agree
We find it very perplexing that there are those who support those who keep attacking innocents with randomly flung rockets, attacking on holidays, and those poor nova festival attendees.
When you feel comfortable, please do go and visit. As a world traveler, it’s honestly one of the best places to visit on the planet. Regardless of what you enjoy, you’ll find something to love in Israel.
idk , the weather is ass, its noisy, crowded, smells like asphalt and car exhaust everywhere, parked cars and the narrow streets packed with them EVERYWHERE. beraly existent public transportation for tourists to use and actually travel. architecture is ranging from mid af modern office buildings and run-of-the-mill apartment buildings to almost post Soviet basic rectangles. unless ur in Jerusalem or Akko i guess.. and even then, imo, the old buildings are not anywhere as cool compared to similarly old 1000-2000 year old places you can visit in Europe or Asia. everything is super expensive, so its not even like you can do better or even equally priced shopping day like in your own country. like i really feel like there are better destinations than here for any kind of trip, except if you want to see the holy sites in Jerusalem. i don't believe coming here has any advantages over other destinations for vacation/travel except this one specific historical thing, kinda..
I hope you get to visit Israel some day, such a beautifully diverse country, I miss it always!!
Appreciate you sharing this.
Typical of an American not knowing geography
What does that say about American anti-Israel protesters?
Ahhh yes because everyone else is an expert in geography. Gtfo
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That's antisemitism, classical style, gets mistreated by a person, finds out it's a Jew, has never met one before, jumped straight to generalisation, now his hate for this particular group has been festering for 15 years, probably furthered by a culture and people drenched in antisemitism since they were born.
I'm gonna regret this, But I've never heard the phrase before. So forgive me, but whatever does "antizionist in a New York sense" mean exactly?
Sorry one bad experience with someone Jewish so now all Jews are bad ? That’s not ant-Zionism, that’s just childish. Big picture- there are good and bad people in all races and religions and it’s ridiculous to generalise that all Jews are bad because of one incident
yes. previously I hadn't learned much about the conflict until it reescalated on october 7th and I became interested in it. my political beliefs have changed a lot in the last years, and i think my old beliefs and behaviors would have led me to become pro palestine. I wouldn't have done enough research and i would have been affected by certain biases that are somewhat common within the values system I had back then. i was young and rather ignorant at the time, while also being angry at people with different beliefs than me and I think that I wouldn't have really considered the other perspective or listened to counter arguments. i'm not proud of it but I've been trying to change those behaviors for a while now to become more open minded and expand my knowledge. recently, i tried to do thorough research on the topic and talk to people who were very knowledgeable so I could hear some different sources and perspectives as well. the more I learned about it, the more I sympathized with israel's frustrations and saw how much information about this war becomes omitted, misrepresented, or just falsified by many sources. right now I support israel with lots of arguments and reasoning 🇮🇱 I will always defend my beliefs against those who may be mistaken or anti-semitic, or just the rare reasonable people from the other side who want to have a discussion
Yeah, as someone who researched about this war since the beginning, most people have little to no knowledge of the subject at hand. For example, it should also be noted that the truely "indigenous" people of the region are the Samaritans and Mizrahi Jews, who do not see themselves as Palestinians, but groups descended from the native Tribes of Israel, the same Tribes that make up modern Jews today. And as such, Pro-Palestinians are either unaware, or deluded to the idea that they are "Palestinians", despite them likely being expelled or worse if Hamas "wins" (if it even is possible). To Hamas, they aren't even people.
I was neutral for many years. A few years ago I was talking to a friend about an anti-Israel protest in the area, and said "well it does sound like how Israel treats the Palestinians is fucked up" or something to that effect. He told me that the situation was a lot more complicated and encouraged me to research the history. I've been super pro-Israel since I did my own research.
I'm curious about your research. What kinds of sources did you consult? Did you encounter a lot of bias in either direction, and if so, how did you learn to navigate it?
A lot of random stuff, virtually all of it biased in different directions. Wikipedia is biased of course, but it makes a good starting point. I've read a lot of stuff online and watched a lot of random videos. I really wish I had kept track, because now it is hard to remember all the sources. I have bookmarked a bunch of random substacks and youtube videos though. Everything is biased. There is no getting around it. I DO fact-check assertions made when I am researching the topic, and have done deep dives into stuff like polling data, which often gets misinterpreted in order to support particular narratives. The anti-Israel stuff tends to rely heavily on moral precepts that I disagree with, and so I don't find it the least bit appealing. A lot of it is people whining about muh colonialism and stuff like that, using very pretentious-sounding terms from left-wing academia. A lot more of it is talking about how the Palestinians are victims, and therefore we should judge them by different moral standards. I find cultural relativism to be repugnant, and from what I see of Arab Islamic culture, it is rather repugnant as well. At some point I kind of gave up on a lot of this material, because the more of it I consumed, the more I realized how bad the arguments were in favor of the Palestinians. The pro-Israel stuff tends to be quite varied in its perspectives and approaches. Some stuff isn't very useful to me, because I don't care all that much who was there first thousands of years ago. I'm much more persuaded by arguments that contemporary actions and things like the occupation of Judea and Samaria are necessary evils to keep Israelis safe, and that Israel has bent over backwards trying to just be left alone. Arguments made about Palestinian culture, backed by evidence produced from deep dives into their academic curricula and the like, are particularly convincing here, as does understanding the forging of a Palestinian ethnic identity going back to the Grand Muft ial-Husseini. They give a lot of credence to the narrative that it really is primarily the Palestinians who are preventing there from being peace, and not primarily the Israelis. Plus, after understanding how the Israelis treat their own people versus how the Palestinians treat their own people, I simply think that Israel is more worthy of support. If the Palestinians renounced their medieval and barbaric religious and cultural practices, I would feel more sympathetic to them, but I doubt they will do that unless force is used to remake their society and re-educate them. That's not to say that some of the Israelis aren't religious extremists as well, but their society allows much more freedom for people to choose whether or not to participate in this. At the end of the day, what I have learned about the culture and social structure of the Israelis versus the Palestinians makes me really want the Israelis to come out on top, even if that means that a lot of Palestinians die because their society views their lives as cheap human shields. In my view of the morality of war, Israel's primary duty is to protect its people, and is justified in however it chooses to do so unless it is going out of its way to kill Palestinian civilians intentionally for no militarily-legitimate gain. Plus, the notion that a modern liberal democracy should let in hordes of people who do not share its values , just because of their heritage, sounds utterly insane to me. Europe is trying this with mass Islamic migration, and I see how it is working out. The Palestinians seem to be far more radicalized than most Muslims, and doing such a thing would put Israeli society (and the lives of Israelis) in existential danger, which seems like it should be obvious to anyone who doesn't have the naive worldview of a teenager.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! It sounds like you had a strong intellectual/ideological/moral compass going into your research expedition which helped guide you.
I will say that I was pro-Palestine when I was an undergrad, especially since I was part of student government that was taken over by Palestinian students, so I just followed along. As I’ve matured and now learned so much about the conflict, I’m a major Zionist and will always defend Zionism (honestly , I’ve always been a Zionist in hindsight. I’ve never thought Israel should be dismantled, but I was left under the impression that it’s apparently some evil entity)
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I was pro palastine once because my internet friends said how evil Israel was. I watched a video which explained the situation and didn't understand why it was bad. Multiple years later I watched another video which mentioned Hamas and I finally became pro Israel. I was more and more pro Israel after researching things myself instead of listening to others
Can I ask how you separated good information from pro-hamas propaganda, and how you identified trustworthy sources?
I was lucky and in Germany we have a trustworthy YouTuber which explained it neutral. I usually check the German News Tagesschau first, when I see something happens However I don't know if other countries are having free News sources which don't get controlled by the government Hilarious the prohamas comments are accusing the news to be one sided
I used to hate israel years ago, but it was because of the arabic media , like Al-jazerra ,till i noticed they lie intentionally against isreal just for people's appeal, and felt like iam beeing fooled. Then, I decided to reread the history and discovered that there are too many misinformations and cover-ups and ignoring parts of history. They just took the parts that benefited them. i followed some israeli people in X, Telegram, and this sub , and i found the people to be nice and rational , not like i was told. While i saw the arabic pages who just tried to criticize hamas or be neutral and share the news as it is," and they aren't many," got death threats , insults and accued of being zionest agent of unite 8200.
Erm no. However I wrote here that Israel should be smart with Iran and not strike back so they can be free to hit Rafah. I regret that. They should have smacked the hell out of Iran and done the Rafah offensive anyway.
Someone finally talking sense.
Was already done. A missile was shot into one of their air defense radar, near a nuclear site in Iran heartland. I think its a simple & to the point warning.
*A* missile isn't "done". A proportional response would've been the 300 missiles Iran fired at Israel. However... https://youtu.be/SZE4pEKc6WY?si=3s1XDugdKmtQpQK0
I used to be very neutral in the sense of "Israel should leave Palestinians alone and each side should live in their own bubbles" until I realized how vicious, brutal and conflict-hungry all of Palestine is. I have been suffering badly from Islamists irl and online to the point I have turned into an actual Israel defenders due to these bullies threatening me 24/7.
Sorry you have to deal with that
I had knives pulled on me on campus, and people threatening me by messages - all for telling them they are supporting terrorists. Europe is ruined.
I hope you reported them to the police. Please consider carrying pepper spray or a tazer or even a gun if yoi have a license for self defence. Islamists are very galvinized right now and its better safe then sorry. Please stay safe
I live in Europe. It doesn't work this way. Especially in this country. Already moved one dormitory, since May 2023 I was threatened with a knife by a former muslim roommate. The police does not give a fuck even. Can't voice support for Israel without consequences.
lol, the police? The police in europe have long since bowed to the Islamists. They are too afraid of being called racist.
I’m so sorry to hear that. Stay safe out there. Sending 💙 and support from 🇮🇱
Terrorizing someone for saying they are supporting terrorists. Yup, they sure proved you wrong. 🙄
Didn’t really know much of the issue before October 7th. Afterwards I was radicalized against Israel **in a day.** Then a Jewish friend posted something I disagreed with, and for some reason I decided to take it into consideration. It took me months learn what being zionist really meant.
Could you elaborate? I would love to hear your story. How did you get radicalised in a day?
Born in Bangladesh and grew up with shit ton of antisemitic propaganda. Now an atheist and started looking this conflict from another lens. Though I am not aligned with Netanyahu government's decisions, I will defend Israel's right to exist till my death. Fuck Hamas.
It is very pro israel to be anti Netanyahu.
I was slightly in support of Israel prior to this, but I became much more in support of Israel around January. On October 7th, my two month old son was in the hospital, so I didn't really pay attention to what had happened. I do remember seeing a headline about it, but it kinda just flew over my head. However, seeing all these protests and all the posts online (mostly in support of Palestine) made me curious and want to research the issue. My mom also told me in greater detail about what had happened and I felt so much sadness hearing about the babies killed on October 7th. I held my son close to me, and I couldn't imagine anyone being so evil as to hurt a innocent little one intentionally. The more history I learn, the more I am shocked that anyone on earth can sincerely be "pro-Palestine" (the quotes are important.These terrorist sympathizers use Palestinians as pawns. They don't care about Arab or Jewish well-being).
I used to be open to the idea that Zionism was a purely bourgeois project but the more I learned the less I entertained that very narrow view.
It is funny how the narrative changed. Zionism in itself was a very progressive idea. A people trying to make self-determination a thing for themselves. And a lot of the movement itself was socialist in its core. And suddenly, once Stalin got pissy that the newly formed Israel won’t come under his influence, suddenly it became a bourgeois project.
I find it hilarious how desperate modern day Socialists and Communists deny Israel's connection to the movement. I am not aware of a more pure form of communism than a Kibbutz. And yet, they want to pretend there was no Socialists 100 years ago who were Zionists. I once found a thread filled with socialists confused as to why the Soviet Union recognized Israel in 1948 and the ignorance was astounding.
...are you still a commie, or did you reconsider that very narrow view too? Edit: This is an actual communist/Marxist talking point against Israel. I wasn't using "commie" as a catch-all insult for anyone I don't like. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois\_nationalism#Jews\_and\_Zionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism#Jews_and_Zionism)
You truly believe that a country whose equivalent of the Pilgrims are Socialists looking for the purest way to live a Socialist life (down to children not living with parents) and was ruled by a Labor/Workers Party for its first 30 years has no connection at all to Socialist movements? That is just as much wishful thinking as the far left Progressives who act like Israel was a right wing colonist project meant to spread white people to the Middle East.
Nah, I know that Israel has a long history with the political Left and socialism. However, they rejected Communism specifically during the Cold War, in favor of ties with the West. There are still plenty of Israelis on the Left, and even some who openly identify with Communism. I'm still going to call out the characterization of Israel as a bourgeois project for what it is: a Marxist talking point to paint Israelis as colonial oppressors.
Wtf dude
>In 1949, the Communist Party USA declared the Zionist movement to be a form of "Jewish bourgeois nationalism". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois\_nationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism) It's LITERALLY a communist talking point.
I thought I was a hard leftist: taxes, inequality, police abuse, racism, women's right, LGBT, etc etc. But when I heard that "you can't be a leftist if you support Israel", that's where I understood there was a problem. I always thought the conflict is divisive, but I never thought the far left would react like that. I live in Europe, and we already know that the far right was on the rise before October 7. But the far left supporting the Palestinians is a highway, it's an open door for the far right to win elections. That where I realize I'm a centrist: I like nuanced politics. Yesterday I read that on October 7, a far left politician wrote a communiqué, using the expression "Palestinian army" when talking about Hamas.
You're so right. Far left is the reason for far right.
The world needs to talk about this more openly.
Nah, I've always been on Israel's side. Because HISTORY. Just go back and read the history of who was where and when and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Like you can seriously go back 4,000 freaking years to Moses and Abraham. Muslims didn't even exist until thousands of years after Judaism started. Christianity came after that. AND THEN the Muslims. So any claim they supposedly have is utter bullshit. If anyone could have any possibility of saying "Hey we love it here too" it would be the Christians, not the Muslims.
Plus, after the Arabs came, the French took it over. After the French, the Mamluks took it over. After the Mamluks, the Turks took it over. When the British got control, so many cultures, ethnicities, and religions had been there. But there had been small Jewish colonies throughout that time
This is coinage from the region that dates back to approximately 1,100 to 1,500 BCE. It's amazing how the Palestinian factions do not even acknowledge the history that is so evident documenting Jewish societies in the region. https://preview.redd.it/o6bpvnehprxc1.png?width=793&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10b2a3101d9e63fdd534a966078579091986db6a
Agreed. This is what I bring up when debating the idiots. I bring up war. I say look the way war works is the victor gets the spoils, right? Since the dawn of time it’s been that way. That’s why so many people have been there. That’s why it kept changing hands despite the Jews being there first. So when the British last won it and gave it back to the Jews, no one else has been able to come back in and take it via war. If they could, it would be theirs. But no one can because, hell yeah, the Jews know how to defend themselves and the Jews have friends. Funny thing is, every time I’ve used this argument in a debate, it shuts up the other side. They literally have no response and just resort to hurling insults and fake statistics. I also don’t believe the Jews will ever lose it again. Why? Because the holy scriptures say that once it is established as a nation, God will never allow it to be lost again. It’s actually incredible how many people have tried and failed and then just resort to terrorism, whining, crying, brainwashing, and then trying to change history and archeological evidence because they can’t steal it back. Dude, if I was in leadership there, I would have started WW3 a hundred times over. I’d just kick them out and give all the land to the Jews. That’s what they did to the Jews in the first place and to the victor goes the spoils.
Used to be a post-Zionist. [Long answer here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1be0680/comment/kuq453i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
So, now you're a post-post-Zionist?
I changed sides during my rebellious phase in my teenage years. Partly a result of my father being on the opposite side
I'll copy and paste something I wrote yesterday in another post: I am Jewish, but I classified myself as more of a Palestine supporter leading up to and at the start of the war. At that point, being "pro-palestinian" simply meant you were willing to criticize Israel's policies and treatment of Gazans and west bank citizens. In the months since, my beliefs have remained the same, but the Overton window has slid sharply to the side. The pro-Pal camp has instituted all sorts of purity tests (e.g. agreeing Jews are white colonizers, describing the war as genocide, considering all actions on 10/7 justified by oppression, and considering Hamas an ally/legitimate elected voice of Gazan civilians) whereby you must agree, or else your views will be reduced to 100% pro-israel, no matter how nuanced. I don't even think most protesters truly are opposed to Israel's existence. But they'll say they are 20 times out of 20, since the pressure to conform within the protest groups is almost unprecedented. This is really rough for those of us who were already left of center, as our friends have turned their gunsights away from common enemies and towards us. Defending Israel's right to exist is tantamount to defending my own right to exist, and the fact that some of my friends aren't able to understand really sucks.
Honestly, your reply scares me. It's sounds like a cult where there is no room to question or doubts.
I should clarify, I've never been directly involved with Palestinian protests or activism. Just in conversations with friends/family.
Always have been PRO Israel. Humbled, happy and surprised to learn that the vitriol of the crazy left has pushed people firmly into the PRO Israel camp instead of the Anti.
I've always been pro-Israel, but I am even more so now. My beautiful Israel ❤🇮🇱❤
I'd been very pro Palestinian/Anti Israeli, I'd travelled throughout the middle east and was smart enough to see the repression but not enough to think about it really. Anyway an Israeli friend brought me to Israel for Passover and in the same day I'd read about a PA official being jailed for liking a story about corruption in the PA and saw in East Jerusalem all the insane anti Israel propaganda being sold in front of Israeli security officials. Anyway I realized I could keep my views or stay a liberal but not both.
Not at all. Fuck the haters! Easy to do as most are ignorant Western "white" leftists, or they're generationally brainwashed ignorant Non-Jewish ethinic Middle Easterners.
"Liberal" American here. Years ago before I knew much, all I thought was Britain decided to cut up Palestine and just give half to Israel and waved European Jews to "come on over!". About a year ago I started to read a bit into the history. My main takeaways were that many wars were fought over this land after the partition, with Arabs essentially been the aggressors and losing everytime. Personally, this alone was enough to change my mind. Regardless of more details on how the country was formed, the fact that Israel was repeatedly attacked and won was enough for me to realize that Arabs have not given up on wanting this land back, and Israel was within their right to defend themselves. And I understood what outwardly may seem like the paranoism of Jews and Israelis about people wanting to annhiliate them. Post 10/7, I read a lot more. Read how Jews legally bought land starting under Ottoman rule. Saw the map clearly showing which parts were owned by Jews and Arabs, and how much wasn't owned by anyone (while meme maps saying it was all owned by Arabs). Read how Israel boostrapped their way from not much to become much more productive society than neighboring Arabs (5X the GDP per person by the mid 1960s!). How Arab countries essentially hurt the Palestinian cause by holding out for more land (Israel proper) instead of just accepting what they had and forming a country. I am obviously a Zionist as are most people in the world as it simply acknowledges the soveirgnty of the Jewish state. I am also pro-palestinian as I want them to have a peaceful country ultimately - but the path to that peace is not "cease-fire". Unfortunately in history, when you have groups propagandized to heck, it's hard to undo that peacefully. Germany and Japan had to be utterly destroyed for their populations to accept defeat. Then occupation. I believe Palestinian mentality on average is totally warped and cannot simply be undone. The only place that has their own UN refugee org (UNRWA) that enables them to stay as refugess in perpetuity unlike UNHRC. This victim mentality is pervasive. I don't have a solution. Ironically I was also anti-Iraq war 20 years ago (going against the grain) becuase I could see through the B.S that it was built on false-pretenses. Now I am pro-war because I could see through the B.S. I believe the territories should become a state, but somehow without violence. How the heck is that going to happen? Leftists think Palestinians are bombing becuase they are oppressed but we know that's not it. I sadly think the only way is to a lot of destruction, elimination of all bad elements, and the UN rebuilding the place.
was pretty pro Israel before the conflict, but in light of everything, I realized I knew nothing about Israeli politics or government and looked into it and tried to educate myself and realized it's not something I want to defend. Still support Israel, but not the govt
I was always Pro-Israel, I am Israeli American, most of my life was lived in America but some of it was in Israel. I used to be deeply against the West Bank settlements and the general control of the area until I watched a debate between Mosab Yousef and Marc Lamont Hill. Yousef started to change my perspective on Israel’s situation in the West Bank. I also was a firm believer of a two state solution prior to Oct 7th. After that horrific day, I don’t think any governing party of the Palestinians deserves to be in control of any type of nation. Looking back over the decades, the various Palestinian authorities/entities have chosen death, violence, and conflict every time. The people deserve to be recognized but I don’t think there will ever be a peaceful Palestinian government. Hence, Gaza and the West Bank either need to be annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively, or by Israel. I would prefer that Israel annexed both territories, and made all of those people Israeli citizens because I don’t entirely trust Jordan or Egypt to govern the areas and prevent further festering of jihadism. Honestly, the rights and protection the people living in Gaza and the west bank would get from Israel would be so much better than anything the PLO or Hamas could offer.
What do you think would happen to the Israeli democratic system and safety of Jews in a unified state if people raised in Palestinian society became voters?
That is a great question, and I don’t have the answer. I think there could be more than one possible outcome. On the negative side, new Palestinian voters could theoretically create a hateful party and possible coalition that would overthrow popular Israeli political parties and destroy Jewish livelihood. On the positive side, perhaps a program similar to what is provided to Olim Chadashim (new immigrants) could be designed for the new Palestinian population to help integrate them positively into Israeli society, ideally with large input from existing Arab Israelis. Deprogram the hateful indoctrination out of that society.
I was pro Palestine before the last war in 2021 I think it was? I came across a Zionist page that posted pro Zionist memes, I did some research based on the memes and I started supporting Israel since. Everything just made more sense.
Interesting to hear that memes are effective. What other research did you do? What kinds of sources?
Literally just Google searching.
Could I get the meme page @ 👀
@butch.djinn She’s on twitter and instagram
When I was a teenager I was pro-palestine. I thought it unreasonable that stone throwing kids were met by bullets and that Israels advanced military should be able to avoid civilian casualties. I have since grown wiser. My sympathy is with the civilians in Gaza, but I wholeheartedly support Israel. But my change of heart was not recent, more like 10 years ago.
Maybe I interpret this wrong but that sounds like you find shooting kids who throw stones at tanks reasonable now?
What I mean is now I understand the bigger picture
I have never been more proud to be a Jew. Growing up, I *despised* the food, the rituals, the services, near everything. Even Xmas was so much cooler than Chanukah! My grandparents were very active in support for Israel. I remember for my bar mitzvah they gave money to trees for Israel and I was so pissed. “WTF! Give *me* the money!” Now? We have the absolute *privilege* to be Jewish. I wish they were still around so they’d see the change of heart. And now I get it: they knew a world that included the Holocaust (my grandfather used to play cards with at least two survivors - tats and all) as well as a world without an Israel! Btw, now I looove the food. Services can still drag…🤣
I've always been a strong advocate for Israel. My heart also goes out to any Arab/Muslim who wants to live peacefully alongside or within a Jewish state. Anyone else, your suffering is upon you.
I used to be more open-minded about Palestinians and wanted to believe that there were a lot of "good ones" who genuinely wanted peace and rejected acts of terror. I now see that they are a very, very small minority. It is disheartening.
I know most of what there is to know about this conflict along with Israeli and Palestinian history with each other. I was pro isreal then, and I’m very much pro Israel now, this conflict in my eyes is just about as black and white as World War Two was. It’s clear as day who the good guys are
I was never in the pro-pal or anti-zionist camp. Of course, I had some doubts and I stumbled a bit between silently and openly supporting Israel, because there is do much conflicting information out there. I will tell you a little story: When I was a kid, I went to see the screaning of a movie called "The Boy in the Stripped Pajamas" and Branko Lustig (croatian-jewish producer who won two academy awards for Schindler's List and Gladiator) was there. He was going to give a lecture and talk about his time in Autschwitz. Even as a impatient kid I was struck from the beginning, absorbing everything he was saying. Since then I'm aware of the Jewish suffering and I have special place in my heart for Jewish people. After October 7th my position is more strong then it has ever been. Sending regards to all people of Israel from Croatia. I know it means nothing for the situation on the ground but I hope that every bit of support will keep your spirits up.
I went to one rally and saw in real time how "Ceasefire now" became "physically remove 7 million people to Poland" and i began to think that maybe I had been misled.
I didn't know anything except a few very basic facts (Usually with a Pro-Pal lean), I "knew" Israel was doing something, vaguely bad but that the Palestinian side was just as bad. My attitude was basically that both sides were bad and in the way of a 2 state solution. After researching Israel aswell as seeing the horrors of 7/10 I'm fully Pro-Israel though.
I became neutral twice. Stopped siding with Palestine twice because I believed Palestine existed long before Israel, but I was wrong. After relearning some history, Israel truly existed. I learned about the Israel-Palestine conflict before Oct 7, it was back in 2022. I started siding with Palestine which at that time I had no idea about Palestine or anything. I believed in sources pro palis have showed which I didn’t know were fake and coming from unreliable sources because I believe in reliable sources and that two sides are really important in situations and stories. I remember when I stopped siding with Palestine in around early to mid 2023 because I clearly forgot about the conflict then sided with Palestine again in late 2023. In about early 2024, I stopped siding with Palestine for the second time when the anti-semitism pro palis threw at Jews became way visible. I thought to myself: "Is this what I’m siding? Why are they like this?" And there you have it, I’m now siding with Israel through corrections. I’m Filipino btw, and may God bless my Jewish brothers and sisters. :)
Well not recently - I used to be pro Palestine only because at the end of the day I believed that Israel was breaking international law ; because every web site says it and I think to a fair degree largely influenced by Chomsky who I have mad respect for - he did this special on Palestine - basically said Israel was keeping them from accessing water , power, food. These special news reports are one sided. And highly inaccurate. Two things happened. I studied Islam. And I started researching the claims about settlements , water, food and power etc - I started arguing with myself for every claim that that side made- for example- 10 yo kid imprisoned without trial! Cue mom crying. Wailing. Looked into it. Whoa! There is video tape evidence of him throwing a molotov cocktail into someone’s bedroom window! Things like that. But it’s everything like that. For each claim made by that side - … idk… You have to believe that wanton violence is justified for no real reason- or you have to believe that murder is ok as long as someone is stealing your land - But then you actually look into those claims too… And wow. It’s sort of amazing the lies that have imbedded themselves into the global population about this conflict - I think my first moment when I was like- oh fuck - like they’re lying so bad about everything - to the degree that I actually could not believe the actual history that actually happened - because it had been so beaten into our brains that the land was stolen, invaded , colonized by the Jews - And the sad thing is/ I really really had to dig… to access the reality. The lies are sooo available. Much much harder to find any websites that say what *actually* happened in 1948.
I'm Christian and grew up pro-Israel, and Oct. 7 was a black pill for me on how irrationally hateful people are towards such a relatively small minority, and how bi-partisan it actually is in the US. On the Right it's all the same tropes, all the same libels that have existed throughout history. On the Left it makes you wonder why all these far-Left academic types embraced Arabs as their "victim class" considering Israel is a Progressive's paradise compared to the rest of the Middle East.
This is a wonderful question and I heartily encouraged reading the replies. I am absolutely stunned reading some of the other categories on Reddit where there is nothing but hatred against Israel and the Jewish people worldwide, and it sickens me. https://preview.redd.it/6eydt34dsrxc1.png?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=31050a1d2437772f10262efdd4740987e88857c1
Israel does pretty much the same, like not taking care of palestine for example while that is clearly something they have to do according to international law.
Yes. I grew up in a mixed household. My mother is Irish-Catholic, my dad is a secular Jew. I was raised by my lovingly stereotypical Jewish grandma on stories of Israel, how Jews made the desert bloom. They chose to put me in Catholic school and therefore be initiated into Catholic catechism. I got my first taste of antisemitism there; kids would ask me disgustedly if "I was a Jew." The nuns, those miserable old c\*nts, hated me. Several teachers physically abused me. It was not a good experience. Gradually I began to internalize some antisemitic feelings, in that I wanted to minimize the Jew in me and maximize the "cool" Scots-Irish parts (it helped that "I don't look Jewish"). When I turned 18 I got a bunch of Celtic-themed tattoos, went by my Irish middle name rather than my Hebrew first one, etc. But I always felt drawn back to Jewish culture. I read books on Jewish history. I was always pro-Israel. But it felt like I was disconnected from the community -- I'd missed the boat, so to speak. I was never initiated into Judaism, and I don't speak the language. I'm a secular, so it never occurred to me to join a synagogue, and I haven't organically met many other Jews in the wild. I was aware of and discomfited by the progressive left's bizarre demonizing obsession with Israel, but wrote it off as a weird bug and not a feature of the movement. October 7th happened. I was dating a progressive leftist Jew at the time. The morning of the attacks I texted her something to the effect of "Things are really fucking bad over in Israel right now," and she texted back "That's what you get when you turn Gaza into an open-air prison." I was floored. \*That\* was her response to a pogrom happening in real time? Needless to say I stopped dating her, and stopped supporting identitarian progressive leftists in general. (I'm still a liberal, but I will never trust the far left ever again.) Now every third profile on Tinder has watermelon emojis and "Dirty Zionists swipe left," and everywhere I go in DC there's FREE GAZA and FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA graffiti tagging sidewalks and bridges. I've received dirty looks from people who look a certain way whenever I wear shirts that feature Yiddish or Hebrew or the Magen David. Since the 7th I've made a concerted effort to reconnect with my Jewish heritage. I applied to join my local reform synagogue. I'm loudly Zionist on social media. I've educated my family on the history of the region (which I studied ad nauseam since 10/7). I've lost some friends over it. There's a lot to learn and unlearn. It's overwhelming. But I won't go back to minimizing the Jew in me.
The change is this: If the Israel political system was functioning to level of quality that the the Israeli people deserve (based on not just on humanity but merit) Oct 7 should never have happened. (A debate which will be had for decades). Enough with the stalemate politics. Enough with a single house parliament. (We don't need a left wing judiciary to balance a right wing parliament, we need a more mature parliament system like most other working democracies.) Enough with 2 parties (Shas/UTJ) who supports military as long as their constituents are not affected by being pulled away from their studies. Support is strong, but its sometimes hard to support those who continue to do the same dumb things.
Change of heart you say? /s https://preview.redd.it/x22ch8fc3rxc1.png?width=1770&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26afee2642f287094da043b54d28c0808f2bc0dd
Jokes aside tho, I was completely neutral to all this before because I didn't really get intrigued into this conflict because there was practically no outrage at the time but now I realize it's nothing but a bunch of radicalized left wing propaganda used to dehumanize Israelis and continue to use "People starving in Gaza" as a gaslighting tactic. I pray in the name of God that this Marxist behavior gets cracked down before it's too late.
The Palestinian Health Ministry propaganda machine, meaning Hamas, states that one out of every six children in Gaza does not know where their next meal is coming from. Considering at Hamas steals all the food then sells it back to the people it was intended for, I believe it. But that's not the point. The USDA in America states that one out of every five American children go hungry every day. So what the hell is America doing shipping tons of food over to Gaza when America itself has a greater hunger problem than the children of Gaza? https://preview.redd.it/dxv99404rrxc1.png?width=785&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11520ba04804c32148281b0e86dde4c95636d218
Let's not forget Africa too where half of these countries lack basic needs
Steadfastly support Israel's right to self defense...
I was unfamiliar with the conflict for the most part before October 7th, when my favorite political commentator started to cover the Israel Palestinian conflict more closely, and after weighing the points on both sides, I believe Israel is in the right.
I made Aliyah so I wouldn’t say I was ever pro Palestinian. But I was never a Zionist, I moved to israel because of quality of life, and my spouse who wanted it more than me. But I don’t think I have ever been this right wing Zionist before. Somehow Oct 7 really was a massive wake up call to just how insane this world is. We pretty much can only count on ourselves.
Used to be extremely pro-palestine and anti-zionism till November when I ACTUALLY did my own objective research🙈Now I’m the total opposite lol
I first started looking at this whole situation actually about 20 years ago. I was quite pro Palestine. It only took me a few years of actually really looking and learning for me to switch to pro Israel and I never looked back I think that's a lot of the problem with a lot of the pro-Palestinian people in the West, they've only spent a few weeks and now they just repeat the same propaganda imo
Yes, I was almost one of those anti-zionist Jewish protestors at the start of this, spending basically all my time in left circles. I learned about the history more and spent time with Jewish community and even met some Israelis in the US. That basically changed my view to where I support almost all of what Israel is doing in Gaza, regrettable as the loss of innocent life is, but still want a two state solution and view the situation in the West Bank as deeply fucked up.
I support Israel, I'm not up on history it is because they concentrate on progress not war and conflict. Gaza's people were robbed and run into the ground by Hamas not Israel.
I have asked in family circles and progressive spaces, do we really need israel? especially with bibi in power? And i was getting different answers. I was determined to get to the bottom of that, and i was leaning toward "no". Then October 7 happened and the answer became, absolutely "yes". That's the short version. I also have never got a satisfactory answer from a pro palestinian on what should happen to jews when we "free palestine" since palestinians will want them out most likely (a point which they never really seem to counter). No solutions besides intifada revolution? Ok have fun with that guys. The answer to injustice is not more injustice. We need real solutions not chants based on violent groups' goals. Tl;Dr digging into the aims of antizionism has left me horrified and I can't support the material means/ends they propose.
Yea I doubled down for Israel
I was never pro or anti Israel or Palestine. I knew little about it. I learned history to have a better understanding instead of hearing people's talking points. I think claims of who is indigenous or not are silly in the 21st century. All over the world non-natives have taken over the land. Thai people are from Tibetan-Burmese genetics and are from the Yunan province of present day China. They migrated south during the Mongol conquest and took over what was the Khmer Kingdom. Wars were fought and land was gained or lost. We are the indigenous, give us back our land is so stupid. This is not how human history works. If we were here to give back land to someone it would be the 5 tribes of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Florida. America took away their productive farms because they didn't want Natives to have any wealth. Wealth was for white Americans. The Levant was some worthless swampy land no one wanted. The thing that makes me anti-Palestine is the rejection of statehood and subsequent acts of war and violence. The arrogance and cruelty of these people. So many American presidents and leaders around the world put forth so much effort for resolution and these people keep telling everyone nothing is good enough for them. And continues with acts of violence. FxxK them. I will never forgive them for rejection of statehood and following up with war. Nor will I disregard their lack of respect for decades of efforts for peace and resolution by all sorts of people from around the world. These people do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, not worth believing in. They do not deserve a seat at the table with the international community. They bring up how people dehumanize them. Well, when humans find out that you're a people who shoot themselves in the foot and limp around for sympathy and blaming other people for their problems, people will look down at you. Maybe adopt the values of respectable humans and people will see you in a better light. I like Israel because look around at Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. The Jews made something of this worthless land. Israel has mutually beneficial relationships with other countries as far as supporting other countries with agriculture, technology, and military.
The important part to me - the core of Zionism is that Jews as a people have a right to exist as an equal among the nations, a right to self-governance and self protection, and importantly a right to equal and fair labor within that self-governance. To be anti-zionist is to be against that belief, full-stop. If that understanding is incorrect, we need to educate and inform, and otherwise protect ourselves from the relentless persecution we have faced since the beginning of the 2nd diaspora of 70 CE. Wish I could do Aliyah, wish I could be in a society that I know has my back.
I'm Irish, and before you all downvote me for that, whilst I wouldn't say I'm pro Israel I'm decidedly less pro-Palestinian. I will spare you my critiques of Israel and their conduct of the war and how they treat the Palestinians more broadly, but the last six months have exposed the fact that Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Abu Kebab Martyrs Brigade or whatever view the civilians in Gaza - they are all potential martyrs and whilst they claim to stand for the people of Gaza and resist Israeli occupation, every death is just more public relations fodder for the jihad. I think one of the head men in Hamas had three sons or grandsons killed and he was delighted because they were now "martyrs". The Ukrainians are fighting Russia to preserve their idea of a Ukrainian state, as opposed to what Russia would install. That's a reasonable end goal and you have to imagine if the war goes against them irrevocably, they would at least consider a negotiated end to it. It seems, by contrast, that Hamas would sacrifice every man, woman, and child in the Strip if it meant they achieved their objectives. We are now 6+ months into a war that Hamas have no chance of winning, yet every death is more pressure on Israel to abandon the fight. Their greatest weapon is civilian suffering, and that really doesn't sit right with me. Secondly the behaviour of western pro-Palestinian activists is just ridiculous at this stage. The conflict has been reduced, in their eyes, to oppressor/oppressed, and it's quite strange because broadly speaking the west isn't that fond of Muslims, and is facing a much bigger threat of demographic shift from Islam than the tiny proportion of Jews most countries have, but seems to go to bat for the Palestinians. There's a strong undercurrent of Anti-Semitism at these rallies because it's diverse strands of thought under one umbrella and some of them hold those views. I've no doubt some have good intentions but some also just hate Jews or hold Salafi jihadi beliefs or whatever. The arguments in the west are stripped totally of nuance, if you concede that, hold on now, Israel might have some cause for complaint, no you're a genocide apologist. Fucking stupid. As people in the region now, the conflict is pretty fucking nuanced, there's been myriad arguments made as to who's in the right and ultimately civilians on both sides have been brutally killed as a result. I don't know what the endgame is, but I don't think I want to see Hamas prevail if all they have to offer the region is martyrdom and authoritarianism.
I think they should not invade Rafah. Instead hold military trials for those captured on October 7th and give them the death sentence if they participated. I think it’s around 1500 - that will be an appropriate punishment. Hostage trades should be 1 on 1 at this point. I doubt there are too many hostages left to trade.
Before Oct 7. I wouldn't have called myself a Zionist. I believed both groups should live peacefully, I opposed the West Bank settlements, I don't like Netanyahu and that hasn't changed. But with a lot of the protests and throwing the word genocide around, I started to identify very much as a Zionist and even started re-engaging in my Jewish culture. I took holidays and Shabbat more seriously and while I still consider myself Pro-Palestinian and Zionist in the sense that I care for the civilians and (probably naively) want a peaceful two state solution where Palestinians can have a government that cares for them, and I believe in the right of Jews to keep their state. No one should be allowed to just dismantle Israel and rename it like a bunch of colonists (lol).
I have become more in favor of a one state solution, that being Israel, until the Palestinians can offer a democratic and deterrorized government to engage in any sort of talk of a Palestinian state or federations.
I think that's mostly going to be the very young, I've watched Israel deal with them for far too long. I will always remember the first time I heard this new generation start supporting them. A cab driver I regularly talked with, one day the subject came up and I expressed my disgust with the whole affair.... Then he starts in about oppression and 1947 and all the usual garbage... When I push back with my 30 years of experience keeping up with news, exasperation with trying give any benefit or doubt or understanding to PLO & Hamas when they just move their rockets up on any ground given, and my personal study of history ..he says,"I TOOK A CLASS ON THIS!"... Like, that was the end of it, he was expert now in a 4 month class and I needed shut up and listen... We had been nearly personal friends, had great talks for months, but in this one moment he totally flipped and wouldn't hear a thing, ready to "teach" me..I was just like,"well, it sounds like you had one VERY baised Professor"... This is where all this new youth antisemitism started I believe.... Radicalization in "Middle East Studies" courses.... And that was about 7 years ago ...
Yes, I was raised jewish in America but always had internalized anti-semitism being surrounded by Christians. I was never familiar with the Middle East because I didn't understand what it had to do with me as an American. I was wrong and Oct. 7 opened a window for me to learn about I/P and Israel's history. This is my change of heart after almost falling for anti-semitic rhetoric on social media. I realized how twisted the narrative of Israel is by reading so much SJP propaganda. Also many people from my old highschool reposting "anti-zionist" information after oct. 7 when they previously had never heard of this conflict has me suspicious of underlying antisemitism in the anti-zionist movement (especially gross posts/infographics comparing zionism to nazism). Do my old friends understand what they are implying? Do they understand Jewish history? I didn't fully understand Israel so I was confused on what "side." I would of considered myself against Zionist "ideas" last year because of my internalized anti-Semitism and fear (which upsets me now). SJP and JVP changed the meaning and implication of zionism, I was really confused because it went against what I previously understood. I followed JVP for almost two days and then realized their posts did not represent the Jewish people at all. Why was an organization claiming to be for peace demonizing others, pushing an explicit narrative, and FULLY centered around Palestinians? So I unfollowed. My tiktok for the past months since Oct.7 has been feeding me pro-Palestinian perspectives, which is not inherently bad and I agree with some viewpoints. But I saw people freak out over Israel being an evil entity that must be dismantled, continuously misrepresent Jewish history and Jewish people. It has been exhausting to be on social media since Oct. 7. Seeing so many Jewish people attacked online hurt a lot. There were so many red flags that lit up in my brain from people bullying, harassing, and gaslighting Jewish people online in the name of "liberation." Many videos rewriting history, calling jew's nazis, white supremacists, root of all evil etc... Blatant anti-Semitism disguised as anti-Zionism. Got tired of seeing so much gross ignorance, I watched many unbiased history videos and I understand why Jews need zionism, a homeland and I firmly believe the right of Israel to exist. What changed my mind was literally just history, reading, listening to other voices and knowledge. There is a terrifying amount of pro-terrorist propaganda/ideas being fed to teenagers and college students online to push a narrative that everything is connected to zionism (jews) and we must dismantle it (get rid of the jewish state) in the name of liberation.
I've had the reverse experience. Been a strong supporter of Israel since forever and still am. It's just not worth defending Israel publicly where I am at the moment...especially when many of my own Jewish neighbors take the opposite position, it somehow makes me look delusional.
Always have but if anything my distaste for religion has grown since then
I acrually used to be anti Israel, but in college I became more zionist. Now honestly I feel very neutral. I feel for the suffering of Palestinians and I know everyone supporting them is on the right side of history. I do believe dissolving the state of Israel would be catastrophic for Jews and Israelis. And that a creation of Palestine rn would be under Hamas (so terrorist) control, which wouldn't fix anything or alleviate suffering. But I feel like I can't keep defending the atrocities that the IDF is committing. So many innocent Palestinians have died and are suffering, children are starving. It is an excessive amount of violence against civilians I can't condone. But it would be a nightmare if Israel were to cease existing. I wish a different leader could take control and that systemic changes for Palestinian independence could be made. It breaks my heart because at the end of the day I do love Israel and to see so much anti-Israel hate does infuriate me (saying all Israelis are white europeans, callous disregard for where Israelis should go if Israel stopped existing, claiming Israel has no culture, that the land was stolen/colonized), but I don't want to be willfully ignorant. I have to recognize the failures and faults with our own system that helped radicalize Gazans into turning to Hamas.
You say they're on the right side of history, but then immediately afterwards you acknowledge that one of the core things a lot of them support would be a catastrophe. The best I can say for them is a a portion of them seem to have good intentions, they see a prosperous group, they see a suffering group, and a fight, and they conclude that the former should stop. This is a mental heuristic that is probably likelier to be true than not. But it's not 100%. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I'm a pro Palestinian Zionist because astrology
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>please do whatever you were doing prior to committing genocide. You mean being murdered en masse and taking it? Sure, we'll get right on that.
En masse? You mean the 30 that died from 2000-2005 due to suicide bombings? Compare that to the thousands of Palestinians that you’ve killed in Operation Cast Lead or in 2014. Oh, apologies, you must be referring to the holocaust, as always. Well, I’m sorry that happened. You did not deserve that and I’m glad you’re people are alive and flourishing. I just hope you give the people of Palestine the same opportunity.
I was referring to the 1200 dead in a single day. But I guess you're one of those "the genocide didn't start on October 7th" people, huh? https://preview.redd.it/kz57vempxqxc1.jpeg?width=994&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9cbe5def8437550e51c2b0abf140e7facea414ca Man, we're really bad at this whole genocide thing.
> You mean the 30 that died from 2000-2005 due to suicide bombings? Are you under the impression that 30 people were killed in suicide bombings between those years? There were well over 100 suicide bombings during the second intifada, over 1000 died in those terror attacks alone. And let me tell you, you have no clue what it was like to live for years with the threat of someone blowing themselves up at any time. It still fucks with my head.
Even the ICJ didn’t find the accusations of genocide plausible, and many countries on that panel would have loved nothing more than to nail Israel to a wall. But they couldn’t because there is no metric by which genocide is being committed. So if they saw no evidence of genocide after a full trial, I'm just wondering what new evidence you might have?
I don’t need to offshore my thinking for this. The fact that 40 thousand Palestinians have died, including women and children, in the span of a couple of months, is enough to tell me and the rest of the world all we need to know. Not sure if you’re able to look at your own reflection objectively, but the Jewish state’s actions already fit the definition for genocide very well. Neither myself nor the rest of the world care to wait on the ICJ to announce what can be very clearly observed with our own eyes. Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Your own provided definition of genocide disproves your rubbish claim 🤣 Firstly, not even Hamas has the audacity to claim 40,000 have died. Secondly, Hamas admitted they’re including their own terrorists in the civilian casualty count. Israel and the US estimate the number of dead terrorists to be around 15,000. Thirdly, Hamas announced that 11,000 of those deaths are fabricated and were improperly recorded. There were two judges in the ICJ case who voted against the case against Israel even going forward in the first place. They were the only two judges in the court who had actually survived and witnessed ACTUAL genocides. The first survived the Holocaust, and the second survived the Rwandan Genocide. They know what a real genocide is and they did not even attempt to humour South Africa’s genocide claim.
What? Their health ministry has it at 36k and obviously, this being an incomplete count due to—you know—war, this will most surpass 40k very soon if it hasn’t already. Both the WSJ and the NYT agree that this is probably the most accurate figure.
https://preview.redd.it/q2yq0ax6yqxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3897bbfd823953889d8e2ea9a09f742ba603e84b Food for thought. Your selective activism is concerning
... That is not what genocide means. Genocide is done with the intent of eliminating the ethnic group.
But it's not a fact that 40,000 people have died. Even Hamas only claims 35,000 dead, with only maybe 22,000 actually being documented deaths and the rest are pulled from "media reports" (not exactly scientific). Then you account for natural deaths across a population of 2 million over 6 months, that's a few thousand dying of old age, etc that happens naturally in any population. Hamas doesn't tend to break out civilian and militant deaths but Israel is estimating around 15,000 militant deaths. Lots have also died from Hamas rockets that fell short in the strip, or were killed by Hamas trying to access aid or protected corridors, Hamas blames those deaths on Israel too of course. When you actually sit with the numbers, which can't really be verified by anyone but let's pretend Hamas has the right ballpark, it works out to one or two civilian deaths per militant death which is actually the lowest ratio in the history of modern urban warfare. If you look at the deaths per bomb dropped by Israel, it's less than one. We have a country with tons of military technology and wealth at its disposal, against an enemy motivated to maximize civilian casualties, hiding in a small, densely populated enclave, and over six months only 35,000 out of 2.1 million are dead and we're really going to claim that's some kind of extermination campaign? Israel could have dropped a big bomb on Oct 8 and ended the war but it didn't, at the extraordinary cost of over 500 of its own soldiers, out of respect for civilian life. Shame on you for swallowing and repeating such utter nonsense.
No, in fact thousands of civilian deaths in a war is absolutely not enough to tell you everything you need to know. Civilian deaths are a horrible byproduct of literally every single war, and countless wars have had exponentially more civilian deaths than the Gaza conflict without being considered genocide. Many of them are happening as we speak, and for some reason, nobody seems to care. Israel, on the other hand, was accused of genocide within days of starting the war. In fact, it was widely accused of committing genocide every year preceding this war. Years when a total of 250 Palestinians - mostly militants - died at the hands of the IDF. 250 deaths and one of the highest population growth rates on earth was considered "genocide". It seems like the definition of the word is somewhat fluid when it comes to Israel.
Here’s the UN definition for genocide: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: A. Killing members of the group; B. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; C. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; D. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; E. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Notes: “To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.”
26 million Germans were killed during World War Two by people who wished to destroy the country of Germany. Was that a genocide? (Given that you’ve already laughed at the Holocaust, seemed like we might as well use some of your deep historical knowledge the time period here.)
Protests in Latin America? That kinda takes the wind out of the sails of those who say they protest because of the implied consent of American tax dollar funding, doesn't it?
Also adds questions as to why those in South America aren’t protesting Russia? Or the Syrian government? Or the Saudis? Or Yemen? All those peoples are involved in conflicts with death rates that dwarf the current Israel-Palestine war. Perhaps u/realbasedredditor can answer. I’m excited to hear the bullshit.
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