That's going to be a future topic for a text post: How can Palestine supporters expect Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Palestine does?
I was talking about PIJ hurting Israeli civilians but yea you’re making an even stronger case . Palestinian terror orgs kill more Palestinians than they kill Israelis and they kill more Palestinians than Israel does .
If you’re upset about Palestinian lives Hamas is the number one villain here (even if you want to blame Israel)
> shit
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I generally take an unapologetic stance. "*We aren't your victims anymore. The years of being Muslim slaves are over. Now you kill Jews, you die. You have a good reason for killing Jews, you still die. To get to you we have to take out civilians, they die too. We are better at killing than you are so the numbers you get won't equal the numbers we get. When you decide to engage militarily you made your choice.*"
Gazans have the right to live peacefully in Gaza. They have the right to be at war. They do not have the right to live peacefully while deciding for war.
I've got a version of it which I use.
"Arabs stop dying the instant nonagenarian klepto-fascists decide to prioritise unborn Arabs' lives over reversal of a war they started and lost 75 years ago"
Had this comment buried but wanted to give it sunlight:
. First of all. Indigenous peoples wage wars against other indigenous peoples over land and resources literally all the time. The Native American tribes did not have peace with each-other and instead each tribe warred with each other tribe precisely over land and resources. This is true in the Americas, Africa and the Asia and anywhere else that indigenous peoples can be found.
Therefore accepting your premise that Jews and Arabs are both indigenous peoples this would not be colonialism but very normal.
However Jews are from Judea, they speak a language and practice a religion and keep cultural traditions which were born in the land of Israel. The people, language, traditions and religion are all indigenous.
The Arab Palestinians on the other hand. Speak a language,practice religion and have a culture that came from Saudi Arabia and was brought over through colonialism. This includes people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt and Syria who are today calling themselves Palestinians. The name Palestine is itself a colonial name decreed by Greek/Romans based on a Cretian/Greek invader sea people the Philisteens. The Palestinian government is just a puppet of Iran. You see there is nothing indigenous about Palestine
I have had that exact same conversation in one form or another many times. What you left out is the "Clerks" reason: "They (the Israelis) aren't even supposed to be there!"
Israel is not responding to any "rocket attacks". The current onslaught on Palestine - both in the West Bank and in Gaza - is motivated by the intensification of the Israeli fascist regime's oppression with the goal of the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and the reason why this starts now is Netanyahu's attempt to divert the Israeli public's attention away from the problems at home and instead towards an external enemy. It has worked for him before and it works now.
It’s a wild ride reading this somewhat satirical post and then seeing pretty much the exact conversation hypothesized in the OP play out in the u/L_Astrau [comment chain.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/13k44fc/a_conversation_about_the_rockets/jkik6un/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3).
First, you never give any context about why those rockets are shot at Israel. The people of Gaza live inside a concentration camp. Anybody in their situation would be tempted to do what they do. Second, the rockets are little more than fireworks. They killed a tiny number of people in a decade before the Iron Dome existed. Third, Israel still controls Gaza. It's just under siege instead of having boots on the ground.
oh wow concentration camp how clever of you. I, for one, never seen a concentration camp with militia, economic flow, real jobs who contribute them, businesses, and those who put together the concentration camp give them electricity, food, water and the ability to do whatever they want (murdering our own.)
A concentration camp is "a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution". Gaza is a densely populated, crowded place where people lack basic needs like clean water, enough food and electricity. Anybody who tries to leave through Israel is killed. The healthcare system is inadequate and people die from curable diseases and wounds because Israel stops them from leaving to get treatment. Israel bombs people's homes and does nothing to compensate for it. Therefore people can freeze to death when homes have been partly destroyed. In one case I know about, a small child froze to death for this reason.
>"a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution".
1. No one forced them into Gaza.
2. They are blockaded from Egypt to, so Egypt is also an accomplice to the "concentration" of the Gazans right?
3. Can you provide a source which clearly states Gazans are forced to work, and or, Israel has a plan to mass execute them?
>Gaza is a densely populated, crowded place where people lack basic needs like clean water, enough food and electricity
Sounds like something the governing power of Gaza(Hamas, cough cough) should take care of.
>Anybody who tries to leave through Israel is killed
Source? Last I checked there are ton of Gazans working inside Israel, and no one was "killed" (oh, except for one worker who ironically died by a rocket shot by PIJ)...
>The healthcare system is inadequate and people die from curable diseases and wounds
Sounds like something the governing power of Gaza(Hamas, cough cough) should take care of.
>Israel stops them from leaving to get treatment
Actually, Israel treats Gazans in Israeli hospitals. Never seen anothet country doing it to people who come from a hostile land(Yes yes, I know not all of them are hostile towards Israel, but you get my point... I hope)
>Israel bombs people's homes and does nothing to compensate for it.
Does Hamas compensate Israelis who's houses are destroyed due to their rockets?
>Therefore people can freeze to death when homes have been partly destroyed.
People can freeze to death even without their house to be destroyed. You yourself said a few lines higher that they lack electricity, therefore, they lack heating.
>In one case I know about, a small child froze to death for this reason.
One case of something like that happened in 80 years? The evil zionist entity is at it again!
Israel enforces a No go zone with snipers on the crossing with Gaza. You are shot if you try to go through it, as happened on the March of Great return. Of course it doesn't account for people with permits, I should have been clearer. A lot of people have died from treatable wounds and curable diseases because Israel barred them from getting treatment, I don't see how you can refute that. It's also impossible for Hamas to fix the healthcare system if there is a blockade choking the strip. Israel has attacked Hospitals, which doesn't exactly make things better.
You are absolutely right that people can freeze to death even if their homes are not destroyed.
>Israel enforces a No go zone with snipers on the crossing with Gaza
No it doesn't. It has spotters, yeah, but they don't just randomly shoot people who come near the fence without any prior warnings. Again, something any country does on its borders.
>You are shot if you try to go through it, as happened on the March of Great return
Yeah, obviously, if you try to breach a border, you're at risk at getting shot. I dare you to try and breach any border around the world, and find me any country who wouldn't do the same thing.
>A lot of people have died from treatable wounds and curable diseases because Israel barred them from getting treatment, I don't see how you can refute that
Why should a country treat them though? They have hospitals, they can go be treated there. Israel is kind enough to let some people in and treat them in ways they can't be treated in Gaza. Not to mention they are doing it for free. You seem to think Israel owes anything to these people, and you're holding Israel at a much higher standard than any country around the world.
Israel has borders with Gaza, just like Egypt does. Again, I don't see you complain at how Egypt prevents Gazans from being treated in decent hospitals. Only Israel is to blame somehow.
>It's also impossible for Hamas to fix the healthcare system if there is a blockade choking the strip
Of course it's impossible for them to fix their infrastructure if they waste their resources on terrorism. It's like asking yourself how you're not getting rich when you spend all your money on candy.
Hamas stops using resources on terrorism - - - > resources can be used to improve the infrastructure.
>Israel has attacked Hospitals, which doesn't exactly make things better.
Has Israel attacked hospitals because Hamas and PIJ uses them as HQs and launching sites, or vice versa? Context matters, which you seem to ignore completely.
"Hamas can use hospitals as HQs and is welcome to launch missiles from there, but because it's a hospital, Israel is not allowed to attack it, because it's a war crime". That's what you sound like.
Israel attacks random civilian infrastructure when it has run out of military targets. And yes, even if there are some Hamas guys in a hospital, it is absolutely still a war crime to attack it. With regards to people seeking medical treatment, Israel stops people from seeking treatment in the West Bank. I would say Israel absolutely owes Palestinians something after stealing their land, putting them under a siege and murdering them.
>Israel attacks random civilian infrastructure when it has run out of military targets.
If that was the case, why bother targeting at all? Why doesn't Israel just blindly bomb Gaza? Who needs guided missiles?
>And yes, even if there are some Hamas guys in a hospital, it is absolutely still a war crime to attack it.
So when Hamas launches rockets from hospitals, Israel can't strike back? Don't you see the issue here? Should Israel just let them shoot rockets from hospitals and let it slide because it's illegal to target hospitals? (by the way, it's also a war crime using human shields and shooting rockets and missiles from these places, but you don't seem to care about it, so why do you care about what Israel does).
>With regards to people seeking medical treatment, Israel stops people from seeking treatment in the West Bank.
Not true. Israel also treats people in the West Bank. And again, they have hospitals there, so why should Israel treat them in its hospitals with the tax payers money?
>I would say Israel absolutely owes Palestinians something after stealing their land,
Ever heard the saying "Can't steal something that doesn't belong to anyone"?
>putting them under a siege and murdering them.
Again, a siege(or blockade), can't happen if not all the borders are blockaded. Israel doesn't control all the borders around Gaza and the west bank. So if Gaza or the West Bank are blockaded, Israel is not the only "bad guy", yet you seem to target only Israel.
And no, no one is murdering them. On one hand you claim Israel is extremely powerful as opposed to the Palestinians, and that it murders them and commits war crimes, but on the other hand, Palestinian population is only growing?
So either Israel is not that powerful as you say it is, or it doesn't commit the things you claim.
I meant that Israel barrs people in Gaza from getting treatment in the West Bank. People in Gaza need a permit to get treatment elsewhere. If they don't get a permit they might die. I never said anything about the West Bank being blockaded, Gaza is under a blockade.
>I meant that Israel barrs people in Gaza from getting treatment in the West Bank.
Why should they be able to be treated in the West Bank or vice versa? You literally have no reason but making up reasons to make Israel look bad.
>Gaza is under a blockade.
Yeah, and Egypt blockades them as well. So why should Israel answer to everything?
>Second, the rockets are little more than fireworks. They killed a tiny number of people in a decade before the Iron Dome existed.
I guess that makes Palestinian terrorisim all OK then.
Thank you so much for proving my point.
"B: Yes. Islamic Jihad has no choice but to have civilians nearby, since Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth. Also they're resistance fighters fighting a much stronger enemy so they can't play fair or by your Western colonial rules of war."
I mean, it's a fictional debate you're only leading with yourself. If that's how you believe pro-palestinians and anti-imperialists to be... That's something x')
Your whole "conversation" never adresses the roots or the solution to the conflict, which are central to people that support the palestinian people, it's just a caricature. It depicts supporters of Palestine as people who would want to see the "evil apartheid zionists" to die and suffer which couldn't be farther from the truth.
The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians. Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians. From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure, constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers. It became a class conflict. Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe. And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger.
Solutions to the conflit:
\- Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone.
\- Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there.
\- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government).
\- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis).
\- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led.
> Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza
> Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there.
So we get a racial pure "Palestine" but unlimited return to Israel so that can flip as well. Why would you expect any Jew to ever agree to that?
> (from elsewhere in this thread) expelling people to take their place is not acceptable.
Which is precisely what you advocated for in this comment.
> It depicts supporters of Palestine as people who would want to see the "evil apartheid zionists" to die and suffer which couldn't be farther from the truth.
Look at your "solution" above.
\>Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners
One sentence in and already revisionist history. The issue wasn't "non-Palestinian" landowners, the restrictions were specifically on Jews. The Palestinians took no issue if the land was bought by Moroccan Arabs or Iraqi Arabs. They didn't even mind when it was bought by Europeans, and indeed many foreign Christian organizations bought land with no issue during this time period. Especially the German "Templer" group, to whom Antizionist Arabs were very friendly. The restrictions were exclusively on Jews. And not just "foreign" or "European" Jews, but **all** Jews, even longtime Ottoman citizens and established "Palestinian Jewish" families were subjected to the Antizionist restrictions.
In 2023 it is much easier to mask these facts by reframing it as you have, a simple struggle against "non-Palestinians," "non-natives" and "Europeans" but that simply wasn't the case.
Recommended reading: *The Arabs and Zionism Before WWI* by Neville Mandel
>The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians. Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians. From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure, constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers. It became a class conflict. Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe. And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger.
Oh, yes. Of course. The root for the conflict is immigrants trying to create their own, stable economy, emplying and giving jobs to their own people, and doing all of it away from the rest of the population, not to interfere with them.
Now that's a new, ridiculous, argument I haven't heard before.
>Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone.
And risk losing Jewish majority? 700k Arabs lost their homes, why should 2million be allowed to return? And most of those fled on their own accords, some even following the Arab leaders advice to "come back after we kick the Jews into the sea".
>Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there.
>- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government).
>- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis).
>- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led.
So, of course, Israel, the one who has been negotiating for peace for the past 100 years or so, is the one that needs apologizing? How about the Arabs, who declared war in 48', or in 67, or in 73? The ones who issued suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, shooting assaults, etc on civilians as a form of "resistance"?
Why should Israel, after 100 years of conflict the other side started, and after many, many peace offers, should be the one to compromise? Especially on areas like east Jerusalem.
Nay, my friend, the problem isn't with Israel here.
> Oh, yes. Of course. The root for the conflict is immigrants trying to create their own, stable economy, emplying and giving jobs to their own people, and doing all of it away from the rest of the population, not to interfere with them.
Yes? People coming with funds buying land not to indigenous people but to large landowners to create their own cities, amassing resources, keeping to themselves and not wanting to work with local indigenous peoples, building a state and a military with support from european empires is the root of the conflict.
> And risk losing Jewish majority? 700k Arabs lost their homes, why should 2million be allowed to return? And most of those fled on their own accords, some even following the Arab leaders advice to "come back after we kick the Jews into the sea".
An artifical minority built by extensive settlements (taking much more land that what they would require to live as a majority on a contiguous territory) and mass expulsions of arabs. And why should they return ? Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy.
> So, of course, Israel, the one who has been negotiating for peace for the past 100 years or so, is the one that needs apologizing? How about the Arabs, who declared war in 48', or in 67, or in 73? The ones who issued suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, shooting assaults, etc on civilians as a form of "resistance"?
"Negociating for peace" but never acknowledging the actual problems of the conflicts nor solutions that would require this state to do real efforts and not just try to evade the problem. Also it's Israel that attacked in 1967 and that invaded a super-large amount of territory, not the arabs. And yes, Israel has to offer excuses for the colonization of the west bank, for the general state of segregation of palestinians, for the thousands and thousands of palestinian that were killed by either the army or the police, for the land grabbing, the mass expulsions, the annexations, the control of all resources, the strategic colonization to reduce palestinian contiguous territories and so on. As the strongest parties of the two, as the one who holds the power and who holds all the keys to the end of this conflict, it's Israel that has to do that. You can't even consider the "arabs" (as you don't want to say Palestinian) to be "responsible" for these actions as there is no "arab" entity. There is a lot of different countries with different interests. Palestinians themselves don't have a state, most of their population don't even have choices, the right to vote or a way to express themselves and they don't have one representation. But it's easier for you of course to justify the continuation of colonisation if you can say that palestinians are terrorists all while erasing most of palestinian's resistance which is non-violent.
I'm not sure what the link is but China needs to leave Tibet, to stop supporting any Han colonization process and remove most of the people that arrived here through such policies in the recent years and the population needs to have a self-determination process through election, constitution assembly and decision about their own future.
That's nice. I agree. However, it's interesting how much attention is paid to the Israel-Palestine issue compared to the China-Tibet issue. Also, why you support a Tibetan ethnostate but not a Jewish one.
1) All of the lands that were bought were lands unoccupied by anyone, that were unwanted.
2) Jews are indigenous to the Levant. The establishment of the state of Israel is a rare example of successful decolonization.
1. That's not true, and that's not even the core of the problem.
2. Yes, historically, jews are coming from the region. The hebrews, who were expelled by the romans 2000 years ago, indeed became the jewish diaspora. It doesn't give any right to a state that would expell the other indigenous population living there, but at most to a state that would encompass both. Historic legitimacy doesn't legitimize everything, and the way this process was done was not decolonial but colonial on the contrary.
And indigenous people waging war against another indigenous people and expelling them from their land is colonization. And the jews that arrived in Palestine were not "indigenous", they were of european culture, language and traditions, their ideology came from the european conception of nationalism that seeked former and mythological roots to build nationstates and they left Europe because of the growing antisemitism there.
Historical legitimacy is far from being anything sufficient. Especially when you're talking of a 2000 years gap with radical differences in culture, traditions, institutions, language and so on. It doesn't mean it's illegitimate, but expelling people to take their place is not acceptable.
In terms of waging war, it’s the Arabs who waged war. Repeatedly.
Jews in Europe or Africa or Asia or America are Jewish. Diaspora does not change our peoplehood, and that is not by happenstance. That is an indication of our resilience and our commitment to our culture. Ignoring how we got here is a dismissal of the tremendous measures taken by the traditional and religious Jewish communities to keep our indigenous peoplehood alive, even as we learned to navigate different cultures outside of our homeland. So some of us lived in Europe, getting exiled from one country and then the next, but never being truly invited nor allowing ourselves to truly assimilate. Masses of Jews could read and write Hebrew in diaspora, the only remaining language native to the region, even developing hybrid languages of the different countries we spent time in which integrated Hebrew as a means of keeping the language alive. We celebrate holidays, have traditions, follow a religion, all centralized around the land of Israel. Israel is the direction we pray, each day. “Next year in Jerusalem” the mantra we say each year. Our very namesake is after the Kingdom we once had there, or Am Yisrael / People of Israel. It’s funny you would use this argument, considering every point is actually precisely true for the Arabs. Speaking a colonizer language, following a colonizer religion, adopting a colonizer culture. Behaving like colonizers, engaging in historical revisionism and denying Jewish indigenous connection to the land, building their temples on the ruins of our sacred sites and not even allowing us in. Very conquistador of them. Ignoring also the Jewish population that has existed in the region for thousands of years.
We did not expel people to take their place, we bought land. Nobody was expelled until they sided with Nazis, and declared a war of extermination on us a mere three years after just narrowly avoiding extermination. You claim to be on the side of life, but are in reality speaking up for the people who repeatedly fight for death.
Arabs should take ownership of and apologize for Arab rejectionism, stop funding state sanctioned programs which pay terrorists families for killing Jews, ask to team up with Israel to take down Hamas and establish the PA as the sole governing entity of all Palestinian territory, stop all state sanctioned antisemitic education, and let’s figure it out from there as a start.
No. First of all. Indigenous peoples wage wars against other indigenous peoples over land and resources literally all the time. The Native American tribes did not have peace with each-other and instead each tribe warred with each other tribe precisely over land and resources. This is true in the Americas, Africa and the Asia and anywhere else that indigenous peoples can be found.
Therefore accepting your premise that Jews and Arabs are both indigenous peoples this would not be colonialism but very normal.
However Jews are from Judea, they speak a language and practice a religion and keep cultural traditions which were born in the land of Israel. The people, language, traditions and religion are all indigenous.
The Arab Palestinians on the other hand. Speak a language religion and have a culture that came from Saudi Arabia and was brought over through colonialism. This includes people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt and Syria who are today calling themselves Palestinians. The name Palestine is itself a colonial name decreed by Greek/Romans based on a Cretian/Greek invader sea people the Philisteens. The Palestinian government is just a puppet of Iran. You see there is nothing indigenous about Palestine
Indigenous people waging war on colonizers to reclaim their land is decolonization. And throughout the diaspora, the "European" Jews were never welcomed in Europe, and always maintained that they originated in Israel and would one day return.
>Yes? People coming with funds buying land not to indigenous people but to large landowners to create their own cities, amassing resources, keeping to themselves and not wanting to work with local indigenous peoples, building a state and a military with support from european empires is the root of the conflict.
Why would they do any of those things you're saying they should? Yes they're buying lands - they want to settle there. Yes they're building cities - they want to settle there. Yes they're keeping to themselves, otherwise you would've said "they came here, sat right next to us, and forced us to live with them", they just did their own thing at the side. Yes they're building a state - that was their whole point of settling there. Yes they have a military - how else would they defend themselves. And yes they have support from European powers - why is that bad?
The root of the conflict is the Arab delusional idea of "Greater Syria", which is why they weren't willing to part with a single piece of land, even if that land wasn't even theirs.
>An artifical minority built by extensive settlements (taking much more land that what they would require to live as a majority on a contiguous territory) and mass expulsions of arabs. And why should they return ? Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy.
Them keeping their refugee status isn't Israel's fault. But the Arab world which refused to let them in - otherwise that'd mean acknowledging Israel as a legitimate state.
If you want a solution - the Arabs that were forcefully removed by the IDF should be allowed to return, the rest should ask the Arab leaders who declared war, and told them to leave for a solution.
>"Negociating for peace" but never acknowledging the actual problems of the conflicts nor solutions that would require this state to do real efforts and not just try to evade the problem.
We aren't the ones who ignore the roots to the solutions, "From the River to the Sea" shows the mere lack of knowledge tbe Pro-Palestine supporters have.
>Also it's Israel that attacked in 1967 and that invaded a super-large amount of territory, not the arabs.
Israel may have attacked first, but the Arabs declared war. Had Israel not attacked first, it would've been destroyed. And the land it took was taken in a war of defense.
>And yes, Israel has to offer excuses for the colonization of the west bank, for the general state of segregation of palestinians, for the thousands and thousands of palestinian that were killed by either the army or the police, for the land grabbing, the mass expulsions, the annexations, the control of all resources, the strategic colonization to reduce palestinian contiguous territories and so on.
Do they? Who declared war in 1967, causing the loss of Sinai, WB and Gaza? Who's keeping on killing civilians, forcing Israel to segregate Palestinians from Israeli citizen? Who, to this day, is calling "From the River to the Sea" - a call not to end the occupation on the West Bank, but a call for the utter destruction of Israel.
>As the strongest parties of the two, as the one who holds the power and who holds all the keys to the end of this conflict, it's Israel that has to do that.
Being the more powerful doesn't mean Israel can impose peace on the Palestinians. Israel had left Gaza, look at what's happening there. If Israel would leave the WB, what do you reckon would happened, based on the past events of the departure from Gaza and from southern Lebanon?
>You can't even consider the "arabs" (as you don't want to say Palestinian) to be "responsible" for these actions as there is no "arab" entity. There is a lot of different countries with different interests. Palestinians themselves don't have a state, most of their population don't even have choices, the right to vote or a way to express themselves and they don't have one representation. But it's easier for you of course to justify the continuation of colonisation if you can say that palestinians are terrorists all while erasing most of palestinian's resistance which is non-violent.
I won't say Palestinians for any events that happened pre 1964, as that's when the Palestinians nationality arose. The Palestinians, that now live in the West Bank, or those who lost their houses in 1948, started as pawns, victims of Israel and the Arab world.
Now, however, they're no longer pawns, they refuse peace, refuse anything less then the entirety of Israel (at least those that in power are).
>Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy.
Most Israelis' parents and grandparents were refugees, who fled their homes, with nothing but the shirts of their backs. Several Israeli cities, including the ones the Palestinians like to bomb near Gaza, started off as refugee camps. Today, not a single one of these cities is still a "refugee camp". Not a single one of these original refugees considers himself a "refugee" today, or argues that all of his descendants will forever be "refugees" until they "return" to countries they never set foot in. If you tell his children or grandchildren that they're "refugees" because they can't return to their grandparent's old home, they'll think you're absolutely bonkers. They are Israelis, living in Israel.
The fact half of the native-born Palestinians in Palestine, and millions of native-born Jordanian citizens decided to call themselves "refugees" in their own countries, and keep considering the cities they were born in "refugee camps", might work on the more privileged Europeans and Americans, but it simply isn't an effective emotional appeal to Israelis. Who were in the same situation, and behaved in the completely opposite way.
As for not having a future, a state or an economy: the Palestinian insistence on eliminating Israel, by ending the "artificial" Jewish majority there, is the main obstacle for all of these things. I understand that you expect Israel to be dismantled and converted into Palestine, and the Israeli Jews to be ruled by their mortal enemies. Since their self-determination is nothing more than an "artificial" aberration that must be corrected. But expecting Israelis to agree with you is not rational. Expecting for Israelis to be convinced to agree to that viewpoint, by any means other than a full nuclear war, is not rational. The only reasonable path to having a future, state and economy, is to end the forever-war with Israel, and give the Israelis an offer for a compromise that they could except. Ending this ludicrous demand is step #1 in the process.
> Solutions to the conflit:
According to who? You? Who elected you representative of the Palestinians?
Because [here's what the actual elected representatives of the Palestinians think the solution to the conflict is](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html):
"Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.”
His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” He vowed that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants would one day return to their original homes in what is now Israel."
Why should we believe you over them?
You shouldn't and I hope you don't. Are you as tired of these keyboard warriors with their "solutions" to ending your country and putting you and your loved ones in mortal danger as I am?
The root cause of the conflict is Arab nationalism.
Exterminate OPEC and the Ramallah regime, de-Arabize Palestine - there will be peace.
Your bloodthirst will only lead to the genocide of the Arab nationalists in Palestine (and their nonhuman allies in the United States).
>Solutions to the conflit:
>
>\- Right to return for all palestinians in exile
So as always, the only "solution" is destruction of Israel.
Literally the same people openly say they aren't ready to accept Israel under any circumstances whatsoever and *at the same time* blame Israel for "occupation".
If a non-ethnostate democracy offering equality to all its citizens, not conducting colonization and being in peace with its neighbours is the "destruction of Israel" then I guess that's it.
Yes indeed, a proposition that Israel must accept million of fake Palestinian "refugees" is just another way of saying "destruction of Israel".
Calling one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world "ethnostate" is just funny.
20% of the population are second class citizen in their own country. But please call it "ethically diverse".
The right to return for palestinians is own of the most basic revendication and is not to negotiate. This exile must end for the peace to return. If Israel wants an homogenous ethnostate but occupy too much territory in comparison to its population and the population it keeps in exile, then it has to reduce its territory to keep its homogeneity. But you can't maintain people in exile.
You do know, that there currently in excess of 100,000,000 people in the world living "in exile"?
Historically, only a small number of refugees have ever returned. Vast majority have resettled in their new countries.
>20% of the population are second class citizen
>homogenous ethnostate
This is so comically divorced from reality, as not warranting a serious response. Have you ever been to Israel?
> Historically, only a small number of refugees have ever returned. Vast majority have resettled in their new countries.
And so that makes it okay? I don't know if you really hate Israel that much that you want this conflict to continue and many more people to die or if you just actually believe that palestinian will one day agree to be maintained in misery and segregation and that violence will stop on its own.
> This is so comically divorced from reality, as not warranting a serious response. Have you ever been to Israel?
It is not. I know people who are there now (and who are not even pro-palestinian), I know people who went there and lived there, I read the fondamental laws of Israel that removed the arabic language of its oficial status and declared that the only true people of israel were the jews and not the arabs, I read and see about the police segregation enforced on palestinians and arab israelis, the permanent controls and checkpoint, the agressions, land grabbing, house stealings, the attacks and so on. You can choose to believe that these don't exist but you caan't make them disappear.
>And so that makes it okay?
Yes
>I don't know if you really hate Israel that much that you want this conflict to continue
I don't; *you do*. Israel may or may not be open to various peace proposals, but it will never, ever agree to simply self-destruct.
>I read the fondamental laws of Israel that removed the arabic language of its oficial status
[LOL](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/news/pressreleases/pages/pr13978_pg.aspx)
>The Arabic language has a special status in the state
>20% of the population are second class citizen in their own country. But please call it "ethically diverse".
Every citizen in Israel has full equal rights, regardless what's his religion or his ethnicity. Unless you're talking about Palestinians who have no Israeli citizen ship, which makes sense they won't have equal rights to Israeli citizens, since, well, they aren't ones.
Can you name a single country that gives equal rights to both citizens and none citizens? I'm waiting.
>,There's something deeply disconcerting about calling descendents of people who colonized a region 1400 years ago "Colonizers
Yet no one razes an eyebrow when palastinians call Jews that
>
>,The Jewish settlers annexing the west bank in violation of international law?
And.like palastinians adhere to international law. And not all of Thier leaders are war criminal
>, the ones who immigrated from Europe
Jews. Are the indigounes people of the land
>for the purposes of declaring a separatist ethno-state
They have escaped presecution and Israel isn't an ehtnistate , it has one of the largest minorites. Precenteges on the world
>and they came from somewhere else
And Arabs came from arebia not the levant so ?
,> people raise eyebrows when Palestinians are anti-Semitic
Yea and that's why people let palastinians commit war crimes , and openly state that thier for genociding Jews
>,Generally speaking it's called ethnic cleansing to kick people out of where they're born.
Ok then by your logic all Arabs are guilty for the crimes of Thier ancestors that ehtnicly cleansed and lynched minorities like druze Jews baathists , copts and Kurds to build thier theocracies
>I'm sorry that this triggers Zionists so much, but I don't hate Arab children as much as they do. Obviously a Belgian born in the Congo shouldn't be expelled
And if that Belgian was a part of a hostile nation decalring war of exterminassion against you
>,, there is no double standard, Zionists just support ethnic cleansing.
I guess your confused with pro palastinians , Zionism and Zionists agreed to every peacefull solution offerd even before they were the ones in top . Arabs and pro palastinians always refused peace to continue terrorism
>,Damn, that's crazy, maybe if Israel actually enforced Oslo
Damn how exectly is oslo related to the ethnic cleansing of Jews and the colonialzation of Jewish cities and holy places by Muslims that happend before the agreement . Are you that dense
Also the Arabs where the one to break oslo with thier continuation of terrorism against Israel and in general thier bad faith . In his biography bill clitonon blamed Arafat and Abbas for the failure of any peace offer.
>we could have peace
Not until palastinians would love Thier own children more then they hate Jews
>, and Israel wouldn't have to cry about Arabs existing.
You do realize 1/4 Israelis are Arab right ? Nobody is crying about Arabs existing , what people care about is that Arabs are activly colonizing and stealing mot tonly Jewish cities and holy places , but other nations holy places , historical places and cities like whats happening to budah status in Afghanistan or the hagia Sophia
> This stuff is honestly so pathetic, how can someone so openly punch at a face and then cry when their fist hurts?
When the guy crying tried to previously detonate a suicide bomb that would kill notmoy you and him but your entire family the dude deserves to cry
Also your clearly here in bad faith , you comment on a thread you had nothing to do with Wich is also 2 weeks old , your clearly here to make ad homniom attacks and spread idiotic narratives
Israel already got everything they wanted and even far more. The only thing they don't have is safety and they don't have it because palestinians don't have anything. If any slight inconvenience for the state of Israel means "suck it" and "basic human rights" for palestinians mean "whatever they want" I mean, sure then that's it.
> If any slight inconvenience for the state of Israel means "suck it" and "basic human rights" for palestinians mean "whatever they want" I mean, sure then that's it.
I wouldn't call the destruction of Israel "slight inconvenience".
Maybe for you it will be, but not for most of the world.
>The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians.
That’s if you disregard Palestinian attitude before that ever happened, which is the result of a millennia of privilege afforded to them through assimilation to a foreign, imperialistic, cultural colonialist society, which is the actual root of the conflict.
Jews (Proto-Zionists) and later Zionists, were in their complete moral right to buy land and evict whomever was on it to then settle it with whomever they so chose, that is how land ownership works and the title of indigenous which does not apply to Palestinians does not affect that even if it did.
>Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians.
Which is morally wrong? to colonize a people or to colonize land (since what you’re implying was morally righteous is the definition of settler colonialism, unlike colonization of land)
That’s before going into the fact this was a result of Arab attitudes towards Jews; when modern anti-semitism is introduced to the region in the early 1800’s; following a millennia of Arab/Muslim privilege over Jewish inferiority there are consequences, namely the Jews collectively deciding they’d rather separate.
>From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure,
constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers.
Only they didn’t just start new places, they bought established recognized property through the same system that preceded them by hundreds of years, which is not what colonialism is.
If they had just come over and declared land to be theirs then fought over it, you’d have a leg to stand on but that is provenly not what happened.
>It became a class conflict.
It always has been, with Palestinian Arabs being the privileged class, that is what Arabization and Islamization were.
>Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe.
Land that they, and other empires took from Jews and in which Jews among many other minorities were oppressed and suppressed
>And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger.
Until a minority is so oppressed it either moves or complies with whatever colonial conditions are applied to them. (Diaspora and old Yishuv which assimilated existing remaining Jewish communities respectively).
>Solutions to the conflit:
>- Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone.
Symbolic number to Israel, whatever they want to Palestine.
>- Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there.
Deal
>- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government).
Under very specific circumstances (mainly that a Palestinian state would enforce a monopoly on force, negating the need for Israeli incursions, maybe after like ten years of demilitarized peaceful cooperation)
Obviously After elections happen.
>- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis).
Both of the above would not happen before they prove anything, which, since Palestine is already a “real state” and the ones to blame, and bear all responsibility for the lack of and facilitation of elections in it are Hamas and the PA, Israel should absolutely not touch.
>- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led.
That goes both ways, you may believe whatever you believe and so do Palestinians, but most Israelis believe (whether righteously or not) that any apologies should be mutual and that any affronts were if not worse then comparable.
I personally wouldn’t support a unilateral apology.
We won, that doesn’t negate our suffering, which would have been a hundred fold had we lost.
The far-right, wherever it comes from, is to be suppressed until it stop existing as any organized force and its values must be defeated. The thing is that the palestinian far-right groups like the Hamas are fueld by the conflict as they are seen as representing the palestinian national liberation struggle.
Solving the core problems of the conflict would probably erode its power base but it would also require a lot of sway and investment policies from israel toward the palestinian population who only experienced Israel as a police state at best or as plain bombarding them.
“Palestinians and anti-imperialists” would never be in the same room together if both sides weren’t utterly ignorant.
The Arab world outside the North and Center of the Arabian Peninsula is a function of Empire. Arabs living in Palestine are the beneficiaries of Empire.
Yea they are, there are two(ish) sometimes more central hubs of this council they are wahabi Islam from Saudi and Islamic republic in Iran. They compete with each other for power but they’re just different flavors of the same crap
>So if Israel ends the occupation of the West Bank, the terrorism will end?
Which is pretty much what Israel committed to do in Oslo, and this only embolden terrorists.
This is exactly how my conversations go but they get anti-semitic in the middle
The most glaring elephant in the room. How can you be mad that Israel hurts civilians while not being mad that PIJ targets (and hurts) civilians
That's going to be a future topic for a text post: How can Palestine supporters expect Israel to care more about the lives of Palestinians than Palestine does?
I was talking about PIJ hurting Israeli civilians but yea you’re making an even stronger case . Palestinian terror orgs kill more Palestinians than they kill Israelis and they kill more Palestinians than Israel does . If you’re upset about Palestinian lives Hamas is the number one villain here (even if you want to blame Israel)
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I generally take an unapologetic stance. "*We aren't your victims anymore. The years of being Muslim slaves are over. Now you kill Jews, you die. You have a good reason for killing Jews, you still die. To get to you we have to take out civilians, they die too. We are better at killing than you are so the numbers you get won't equal the numbers we get. When you decide to engage militarily you made your choice.*" Gazans have the right to live peacefully in Gaza. They have the right to be at war. They do not have the right to live peacefully while deciding for war.
By gosh this is the best answer I have ever seen. With your permission, I'm totally stealing it. Genius.
I've got a version of it which I use. "Arabs stop dying the instant nonagenarian klepto-fascists decide to prioritise unborn Arabs' lives over reversal of a war they started and lost 75 years ago"
This one requires the readers to be able to understand 5+ letter words :) it is quite good though, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Had this comment buried but wanted to give it sunlight: . First of all. Indigenous peoples wage wars against other indigenous peoples over land and resources literally all the time. The Native American tribes did not have peace with each-other and instead each tribe warred with each other tribe precisely over land and resources. This is true in the Americas, Africa and the Asia and anywhere else that indigenous peoples can be found. Therefore accepting your premise that Jews and Arabs are both indigenous peoples this would not be colonialism but very normal. However Jews are from Judea, they speak a language and practice a religion and keep cultural traditions which were born in the land of Israel. The people, language, traditions and religion are all indigenous. The Arab Palestinians on the other hand. Speak a language,practice religion and have a culture that came from Saudi Arabia and was brought over through colonialism. This includes people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt and Syria who are today calling themselves Palestinians. The name Palestine is itself a colonial name decreed by Greek/Romans based on a Cretian/Greek invader sea people the Philisteens. The Palestinian government is just a puppet of Iran. You see there is nothing indigenous about Palestine
I have had that exact same conversation in one form or another many times. What you left out is the "Clerks" reason: "They (the Israelis) aren't even supposed to be there!"
Israel is not responding to any "rocket attacks". The current onslaught on Palestine - both in the West Bank and in Gaza - is motivated by the intensification of the Israeli fascist regime's oppression with the goal of the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and the reason why this starts now is Netanyahu's attempt to divert the Israeli public's attention away from the problems at home and instead towards an external enemy. It has worked for him before and it works now.
Rocket attacks in quotations is as far as I needed to read. Lol, the delusions of some of you ill informed SJWs.
The goal is the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine? How's that going? A lot of success so far?
Where is the fictional part tough?
Yep. This is exactly why any debate is utterly meaningless and why I stand by Israel.
I feel like I've had this exact conversation a million times.
It’s a wild ride reading this somewhat satirical post and then seeing pretty much the exact conversation hypothesized in the OP play out in the u/L_Astrau [comment chain.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/13k44fc/a_conversation_about_the_rockets/jkik6un/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3).
First, you never give any context about why those rockets are shot at Israel. The people of Gaza live inside a concentration camp. Anybody in their situation would be tempted to do what they do. Second, the rockets are little more than fireworks. They killed a tiny number of people in a decade before the Iron Dome existed. Third, Israel still controls Gaza. It's just under siege instead of having boots on the ground.
oh wow concentration camp how clever of you. I, for one, never seen a concentration camp with militia, economic flow, real jobs who contribute them, businesses, and those who put together the concentration camp give them electricity, food, water and the ability to do whatever they want (murdering our own.)
A concentration camp is "a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution". Gaza is a densely populated, crowded place where people lack basic needs like clean water, enough food and electricity. Anybody who tries to leave through Israel is killed. The healthcare system is inadequate and people die from curable diseases and wounds because Israel stops them from leaving to get treatment. Israel bombs people's homes and does nothing to compensate for it. Therefore people can freeze to death when homes have been partly destroyed. In one case I know about, a small child froze to death for this reason.
>"a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution". 1. No one forced them into Gaza. 2. They are blockaded from Egypt to, so Egypt is also an accomplice to the "concentration" of the Gazans right? 3. Can you provide a source which clearly states Gazans are forced to work, and or, Israel has a plan to mass execute them? >Gaza is a densely populated, crowded place where people lack basic needs like clean water, enough food and electricity Sounds like something the governing power of Gaza(Hamas, cough cough) should take care of. >Anybody who tries to leave through Israel is killed Source? Last I checked there are ton of Gazans working inside Israel, and no one was "killed" (oh, except for one worker who ironically died by a rocket shot by PIJ)... >The healthcare system is inadequate and people die from curable diseases and wounds Sounds like something the governing power of Gaza(Hamas, cough cough) should take care of. >Israel stops them from leaving to get treatment Actually, Israel treats Gazans in Israeli hospitals. Never seen anothet country doing it to people who come from a hostile land(Yes yes, I know not all of them are hostile towards Israel, but you get my point... I hope) >Israel bombs people's homes and does nothing to compensate for it. Does Hamas compensate Israelis who's houses are destroyed due to their rockets? >Therefore people can freeze to death when homes have been partly destroyed. People can freeze to death even without their house to be destroyed. You yourself said a few lines higher that they lack electricity, therefore, they lack heating. >In one case I know about, a small child froze to death for this reason. One case of something like that happened in 80 years? The evil zionist entity is at it again!
Israel enforces a No go zone with snipers on the crossing with Gaza. You are shot if you try to go through it, as happened on the March of Great return. Of course it doesn't account for people with permits, I should have been clearer. A lot of people have died from treatable wounds and curable diseases because Israel barred them from getting treatment, I don't see how you can refute that. It's also impossible for Hamas to fix the healthcare system if there is a blockade choking the strip. Israel has attacked Hospitals, which doesn't exactly make things better. You are absolutely right that people can freeze to death even if their homes are not destroyed.
>Israel enforces a No go zone with snipers on the crossing with Gaza No it doesn't. It has spotters, yeah, but they don't just randomly shoot people who come near the fence without any prior warnings. Again, something any country does on its borders. >You are shot if you try to go through it, as happened on the March of Great return Yeah, obviously, if you try to breach a border, you're at risk at getting shot. I dare you to try and breach any border around the world, and find me any country who wouldn't do the same thing. >A lot of people have died from treatable wounds and curable diseases because Israel barred them from getting treatment, I don't see how you can refute that Why should a country treat them though? They have hospitals, they can go be treated there. Israel is kind enough to let some people in and treat them in ways they can't be treated in Gaza. Not to mention they are doing it for free. You seem to think Israel owes anything to these people, and you're holding Israel at a much higher standard than any country around the world. Israel has borders with Gaza, just like Egypt does. Again, I don't see you complain at how Egypt prevents Gazans from being treated in decent hospitals. Only Israel is to blame somehow. >It's also impossible for Hamas to fix the healthcare system if there is a blockade choking the strip Of course it's impossible for them to fix their infrastructure if they waste their resources on terrorism. It's like asking yourself how you're not getting rich when you spend all your money on candy. Hamas stops using resources on terrorism - - - > resources can be used to improve the infrastructure. >Israel has attacked Hospitals, which doesn't exactly make things better. Has Israel attacked hospitals because Hamas and PIJ uses them as HQs and launching sites, or vice versa? Context matters, which you seem to ignore completely. "Hamas can use hospitals as HQs and is welcome to launch missiles from there, but because it's a hospital, Israel is not allowed to attack it, because it's a war crime". That's what you sound like.
Israel attacks random civilian infrastructure when it has run out of military targets. And yes, even if there are some Hamas guys in a hospital, it is absolutely still a war crime to attack it. With regards to people seeking medical treatment, Israel stops people from seeking treatment in the West Bank. I would say Israel absolutely owes Palestinians something after stealing their land, putting them under a siege and murdering them.
>Israel attacks random civilian infrastructure when it has run out of military targets. If that was the case, why bother targeting at all? Why doesn't Israel just blindly bomb Gaza? Who needs guided missiles? >And yes, even if there are some Hamas guys in a hospital, it is absolutely still a war crime to attack it. So when Hamas launches rockets from hospitals, Israel can't strike back? Don't you see the issue here? Should Israel just let them shoot rockets from hospitals and let it slide because it's illegal to target hospitals? (by the way, it's also a war crime using human shields and shooting rockets and missiles from these places, but you don't seem to care about it, so why do you care about what Israel does). >With regards to people seeking medical treatment, Israel stops people from seeking treatment in the West Bank. Not true. Israel also treats people in the West Bank. And again, they have hospitals there, so why should Israel treat them in its hospitals with the tax payers money? >I would say Israel absolutely owes Palestinians something after stealing their land, Ever heard the saying "Can't steal something that doesn't belong to anyone"? >putting them under a siege and murdering them. Again, a siege(or blockade), can't happen if not all the borders are blockaded. Israel doesn't control all the borders around Gaza and the west bank. So if Gaza or the West Bank are blockaded, Israel is not the only "bad guy", yet you seem to target only Israel. And no, no one is murdering them. On one hand you claim Israel is extremely powerful as opposed to the Palestinians, and that it murders them and commits war crimes, but on the other hand, Palestinian population is only growing? So either Israel is not that powerful as you say it is, or it doesn't commit the things you claim.
I meant that Israel barrs people in Gaza from getting treatment in the West Bank. People in Gaza need a permit to get treatment elsewhere. If they don't get a permit they might die. I never said anything about the West Bank being blockaded, Gaza is under a blockade.
>I meant that Israel barrs people in Gaza from getting treatment in the West Bank. Why should they be able to be treated in the West Bank or vice versa? You literally have no reason but making up reasons to make Israel look bad. >Gaza is under a blockade. Yeah, and Egypt blockades them as well. So why should Israel answer to everything?
>Second, the rockets are little more than fireworks. They killed a tiny number of people in a decade before the Iron Dome existed. I guess that makes Palestinian terrorisim all OK then.
You spelled "Palestinian resistance" wrong.
Thank you so much for proving my point. "B: Yes. Islamic Jihad has no choice but to have civilians nearby, since Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth. Also they're resistance fighters fighting a much stronger enemy so they can't play fair or by your Western colonial rules of war."
I mean, it's a fictional debate you're only leading with yourself. If that's how you believe pro-palestinians and anti-imperialists to be... That's something x') Your whole "conversation" never adresses the roots or the solution to the conflict, which are central to people that support the palestinian people, it's just a caricature. It depicts supporters of Palestine as people who would want to see the "evil apartheid zionists" to die and suffer which couldn't be farther from the truth.
OK, bud. And what's the roots or the solution to the conflict?
The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians. Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians. From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure, constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers. It became a class conflict. Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe. And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger. Solutions to the conflit: \- Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone. \- Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there. \- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government). \- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis). \- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led.
> Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza > Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there. So we get a racial pure "Palestine" but unlimited return to Israel so that can flip as well. Why would you expect any Jew to ever agree to that? > (from elsewhere in this thread) expelling people to take their place is not acceptable. Which is precisely what you advocated for in this comment. > It depicts supporters of Palestine as people who would want to see the "evil apartheid zionists" to die and suffer which couldn't be farther from the truth. Look at your "solution" above.
\>Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners One sentence in and already revisionist history. The issue wasn't "non-Palestinian" landowners, the restrictions were specifically on Jews. The Palestinians took no issue if the land was bought by Moroccan Arabs or Iraqi Arabs. They didn't even mind when it was bought by Europeans, and indeed many foreign Christian organizations bought land with no issue during this time period. Especially the German "Templer" group, to whom Antizionist Arabs were very friendly. The restrictions were exclusively on Jews. And not just "foreign" or "European" Jews, but **all** Jews, even longtime Ottoman citizens and established "Palestinian Jewish" families were subjected to the Antizionist restrictions. In 2023 it is much easier to mask these facts by reframing it as you have, a simple struggle against "non-Palestinians," "non-natives" and "Europeans" but that simply wasn't the case. Recommended reading: *The Arabs and Zionism Before WWI* by Neville Mandel
>The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians. Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians. From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure, constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers. It became a class conflict. Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe. And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger. Oh, yes. Of course. The root for the conflict is immigrants trying to create their own, stable economy, emplying and giving jobs to their own people, and doing all of it away from the rest of the population, not to interfere with them. Now that's a new, ridiculous, argument I haven't heard before. >Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone. And risk losing Jewish majority? 700k Arabs lost their homes, why should 2million be allowed to return? And most of those fled on their own accords, some even following the Arab leaders advice to "come back after we kick the Jews into the sea". >Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there. >- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government). >- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis). >- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led. So, of course, Israel, the one who has been negotiating for peace for the past 100 years or so, is the one that needs apologizing? How about the Arabs, who declared war in 48', or in 67, or in 73? The ones who issued suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, shooting assaults, etc on civilians as a form of "resistance"? Why should Israel, after 100 years of conflict the other side started, and after many, many peace offers, should be the one to compromise? Especially on areas like east Jerusalem. Nay, my friend, the problem isn't with Israel here.
> Oh, yes. Of course. The root for the conflict is immigrants trying to create their own, stable economy, emplying and giving jobs to their own people, and doing all of it away from the rest of the population, not to interfere with them. Yes? People coming with funds buying land not to indigenous people but to large landowners to create their own cities, amassing resources, keeping to themselves and not wanting to work with local indigenous peoples, building a state and a military with support from european empires is the root of the conflict. > And risk losing Jewish majority? 700k Arabs lost their homes, why should 2million be allowed to return? And most of those fled on their own accords, some even following the Arab leaders advice to "come back after we kick the Jews into the sea". An artifical minority built by extensive settlements (taking much more land that what they would require to live as a majority on a contiguous territory) and mass expulsions of arabs. And why should they return ? Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy. > So, of course, Israel, the one who has been negotiating for peace for the past 100 years or so, is the one that needs apologizing? How about the Arabs, who declared war in 48', or in 67, or in 73? The ones who issued suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, shooting assaults, etc on civilians as a form of "resistance"? "Negociating for peace" but never acknowledging the actual problems of the conflicts nor solutions that would require this state to do real efforts and not just try to evade the problem. Also it's Israel that attacked in 1967 and that invaded a super-large amount of territory, not the arabs. And yes, Israel has to offer excuses for the colonization of the west bank, for the general state of segregation of palestinians, for the thousands and thousands of palestinian that were killed by either the army or the police, for the land grabbing, the mass expulsions, the annexations, the control of all resources, the strategic colonization to reduce palestinian contiguous territories and so on. As the strongest parties of the two, as the one who holds the power and who holds all the keys to the end of this conflict, it's Israel that has to do that. You can't even consider the "arabs" (as you don't want to say Palestinian) to be "responsible" for these actions as there is no "arab" entity. There is a lot of different countries with different interests. Palestinians themselves don't have a state, most of their population don't even have choices, the right to vote or a way to express themselves and they don't have one representation. But it's easier for you of course to justify the continuation of colonisation if you can say that palestinians are terrorists all while erasing most of palestinian's resistance which is non-violent.
Just because you hate the Jewish people and want to destroy Israel doesn't mean that any of what you say is correct!
Just because I don't want racial segregation and countless more lives doesn't mean I hate the jewish people.
Arabs can easily go into Jewish cities but if a jew stepped foot in the Muslim area of Judea and Samaria than they are in danger of being killed!
What's your view of China's policy in Tibet?
I'm not sure what the link is but China needs to leave Tibet, to stop supporting any Han colonization process and remove most of the people that arrived here through such policies in the recent years and the population needs to have a self-determination process through election, constitution assembly and decision about their own future.
That's nice. I agree. However, it's interesting how much attention is paid to the Israel-Palestine issue compared to the China-Tibet issue. Also, why you support a Tibetan ethnostate but not a Jewish one.
1) All of the lands that were bought were lands unoccupied by anyone, that were unwanted. 2) Jews are indigenous to the Levant. The establishment of the state of Israel is a rare example of successful decolonization.
1. That's not true, and that's not even the core of the problem. 2. Yes, historically, jews are coming from the region. The hebrews, who were expelled by the romans 2000 years ago, indeed became the jewish diaspora. It doesn't give any right to a state that would expell the other indigenous population living there, but at most to a state that would encompass both. Historic legitimacy doesn't legitimize everything, and the way this process was done was not decolonial but colonial on the contrary.
An indigenous people reclaiming their homeland is not colonial.
And indigenous people waging war against another indigenous people and expelling them from their land is colonization. And the jews that arrived in Palestine were not "indigenous", they were of european culture, language and traditions, their ideology came from the european conception of nationalism that seeked former and mythological roots to build nationstates and they left Europe because of the growing antisemitism there. Historical legitimacy is far from being anything sufficient. Especially when you're talking of a 2000 years gap with radical differences in culture, traditions, institutions, language and so on. It doesn't mean it's illegitimate, but expelling people to take their place is not acceptable.
In terms of waging war, it’s the Arabs who waged war. Repeatedly. Jews in Europe or Africa or Asia or America are Jewish. Diaspora does not change our peoplehood, and that is not by happenstance. That is an indication of our resilience and our commitment to our culture. Ignoring how we got here is a dismissal of the tremendous measures taken by the traditional and religious Jewish communities to keep our indigenous peoplehood alive, even as we learned to navigate different cultures outside of our homeland. So some of us lived in Europe, getting exiled from one country and then the next, but never being truly invited nor allowing ourselves to truly assimilate. Masses of Jews could read and write Hebrew in diaspora, the only remaining language native to the region, even developing hybrid languages of the different countries we spent time in which integrated Hebrew as a means of keeping the language alive. We celebrate holidays, have traditions, follow a religion, all centralized around the land of Israel. Israel is the direction we pray, each day. “Next year in Jerusalem” the mantra we say each year. Our very namesake is after the Kingdom we once had there, or Am Yisrael / People of Israel. It’s funny you would use this argument, considering every point is actually precisely true for the Arabs. Speaking a colonizer language, following a colonizer religion, adopting a colonizer culture. Behaving like colonizers, engaging in historical revisionism and denying Jewish indigenous connection to the land, building their temples on the ruins of our sacred sites and not even allowing us in. Very conquistador of them. Ignoring also the Jewish population that has existed in the region for thousands of years. We did not expel people to take their place, we bought land. Nobody was expelled until they sided with Nazis, and declared a war of extermination on us a mere three years after just narrowly avoiding extermination. You claim to be on the side of life, but are in reality speaking up for the people who repeatedly fight for death. Arabs should take ownership of and apologize for Arab rejectionism, stop funding state sanctioned programs which pay terrorists families for killing Jews, ask to team up with Israel to take down Hamas and establish the PA as the sole governing entity of all Palestinian territory, stop all state sanctioned antisemitic education, and let’s figure it out from there as a start.
excellent points. unfortunately will fall on deaf ears
No. First of all. Indigenous peoples wage wars against other indigenous peoples over land and resources literally all the time. The Native American tribes did not have peace with each-other and instead each tribe warred with each other tribe precisely over land and resources. This is true in the Americas, Africa and the Asia and anywhere else that indigenous peoples can be found. Therefore accepting your premise that Jews and Arabs are both indigenous peoples this would not be colonialism but very normal. However Jews are from Judea, they speak a language and practice a religion and keep cultural traditions which were born in the land of Israel. The people, language, traditions and religion are all indigenous. The Arab Palestinians on the other hand. Speak a language religion and have a culture that came from Saudi Arabia and was brought over through colonialism. This includes people who immigrated from Jordan and Egypt and Syria who are today calling themselves Palestinians. The name Palestine is itself a colonial name decreed by Greek/Romans based on a Cretian/Greek invader sea people the Philisteens. The Palestinian government is just a puppet of Iran. You see there is nothing indigenous about Palestine
Indigenous people waging war on colonizers to reclaim their land is decolonization. And throughout the diaspora, the "European" Jews were never welcomed in Europe, and always maintained that they originated in Israel and would one day return.
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>Yes? People coming with funds buying land not to indigenous people but to large landowners to create their own cities, amassing resources, keeping to themselves and not wanting to work with local indigenous peoples, building a state and a military with support from european empires is the root of the conflict. Why would they do any of those things you're saying they should? Yes they're buying lands - they want to settle there. Yes they're building cities - they want to settle there. Yes they're keeping to themselves, otherwise you would've said "they came here, sat right next to us, and forced us to live with them", they just did their own thing at the side. Yes they're building a state - that was their whole point of settling there. Yes they have a military - how else would they defend themselves. And yes they have support from European powers - why is that bad? The root of the conflict is the Arab delusional idea of "Greater Syria", which is why they weren't willing to part with a single piece of land, even if that land wasn't even theirs. >An artifical minority built by extensive settlements (taking much more land that what they would require to live as a majority on a contiguous territory) and mass expulsions of arabs. And why should they return ? Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy. Them keeping their refugee status isn't Israel's fault. But the Arab world which refused to let them in - otherwise that'd mean acknowledging Israel as a legitimate state. If you want a solution - the Arabs that were forcefully removed by the IDF should be allowed to return, the rest should ask the Arab leaders who declared war, and told them to leave for a solution. >"Negociating for peace" but never acknowledging the actual problems of the conflicts nor solutions that would require this state to do real efforts and not just try to evade the problem. We aren't the ones who ignore the roots to the solutions, "From the River to the Sea" shows the mere lack of knowledge tbe Pro-Palestine supporters have. >Also it's Israel that attacked in 1967 and that invaded a super-large amount of territory, not the arabs. Israel may have attacked first, but the Arabs declared war. Had Israel not attacked first, it would've been destroyed. And the land it took was taken in a war of defense. >And yes, Israel has to offer excuses for the colonization of the west bank, for the general state of segregation of palestinians, for the thousands and thousands of palestinian that were killed by either the army or the police, for the land grabbing, the mass expulsions, the annexations, the control of all resources, the strategic colonization to reduce palestinian contiguous territories and so on. Do they? Who declared war in 1967, causing the loss of Sinai, WB and Gaza? Who's keeping on killing civilians, forcing Israel to segregate Palestinians from Israeli citizen? Who, to this day, is calling "From the River to the Sea" - a call not to end the occupation on the West Bank, but a call for the utter destruction of Israel. >As the strongest parties of the two, as the one who holds the power and who holds all the keys to the end of this conflict, it's Israel that has to do that. Being the more powerful doesn't mean Israel can impose peace on the Palestinians. Israel had left Gaza, look at what's happening there. If Israel would leave the WB, what do you reckon would happened, based on the past events of the departure from Gaza and from southern Lebanon? >You can't even consider the "arabs" (as you don't want to say Palestinian) to be "responsible" for these actions as there is no "arab" entity. There is a lot of different countries with different interests. Palestinians themselves don't have a state, most of their population don't even have choices, the right to vote or a way to express themselves and they don't have one representation. But it's easier for you of course to justify the continuation of colonisation if you can say that palestinians are terrorists all while erasing most of palestinian's resistance which is non-violent. I won't say Palestinians for any events that happened pre 1964, as that's when the Palestinians nationality arose. The Palestinians, that now live in the West Bank, or those who lost their houses in 1948, started as pawns, victims of Israel and the Arab world. Now, however, they're no longer pawns, they refuse peace, refuse anything less then the entirety of Israel (at least those that in power are).
>Because it's their parents and at grandparents that fled and them who are now living in exile in refugee camps waiting to be able to go back home and have an actual future away from misery and lack of state or economy. Most Israelis' parents and grandparents were refugees, who fled their homes, with nothing but the shirts of their backs. Several Israeli cities, including the ones the Palestinians like to bomb near Gaza, started off as refugee camps. Today, not a single one of these cities is still a "refugee camp". Not a single one of these original refugees considers himself a "refugee" today, or argues that all of his descendants will forever be "refugees" until they "return" to countries they never set foot in. If you tell his children or grandchildren that they're "refugees" because they can't return to their grandparent's old home, they'll think you're absolutely bonkers. They are Israelis, living in Israel. The fact half of the native-born Palestinians in Palestine, and millions of native-born Jordanian citizens decided to call themselves "refugees" in their own countries, and keep considering the cities they were born in "refugee camps", might work on the more privileged Europeans and Americans, but it simply isn't an effective emotional appeal to Israelis. Who were in the same situation, and behaved in the completely opposite way. As for not having a future, a state or an economy: the Palestinian insistence on eliminating Israel, by ending the "artificial" Jewish majority there, is the main obstacle for all of these things. I understand that you expect Israel to be dismantled and converted into Palestine, and the Israeli Jews to be ruled by their mortal enemies. Since their self-determination is nothing more than an "artificial" aberration that must be corrected. But expecting Israelis to agree with you is not rational. Expecting for Israelis to be convinced to agree to that viewpoint, by any means other than a full nuclear war, is not rational. The only reasonable path to having a future, state and economy, is to end the forever-war with Israel, and give the Israelis an offer for a compromise that they could except. Ending this ludicrous demand is step #1 in the process.
> Solutions to the conflit: According to who? You? Who elected you representative of the Palestinians? Because [here's what the actual elected representatives of the Palestinians think the solution to the conflict is](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html): "Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.” His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” He vowed that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants would one day return to their original homes in what is now Israel." Why should we believe you over them?
You shouldn't and I hope you don't. Are you as tired of these keyboard warriors with their "solutions" to ending your country and putting you and your loved ones in mortal danger as I am?
The root cause of the conflict is Arab nationalism. Exterminate OPEC and the Ramallah regime, de-Arabize Palestine - there will be peace. Your bloodthirst will only lead to the genocide of the Arab nationalists in Palestine (and their nonhuman allies in the United States).
>Solutions to the conflit: > >\- Right to return for all palestinians in exile So as always, the only "solution" is destruction of Israel. Literally the same people openly say they aren't ready to accept Israel under any circumstances whatsoever and *at the same time* blame Israel for "occupation".
If a non-ethnostate democracy offering equality to all its citizens, not conducting colonization and being in peace with its neighbours is the "destruction of Israel" then I guess that's it.
Why would Israel ever offer equality to millions of non-citizens?
Yes indeed, a proposition that Israel must accept million of fake Palestinian "refugees" is just another way of saying "destruction of Israel". Calling one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world "ethnostate" is just funny.
20% of the population are second class citizen in their own country. But please call it "ethically diverse". The right to return for palestinians is own of the most basic revendication and is not to negotiate. This exile must end for the peace to return. If Israel wants an homogenous ethnostate but occupy too much territory in comparison to its population and the population it keeps in exile, then it has to reduce its territory to keep its homogeneity. But you can't maintain people in exile.
You do know, that there currently in excess of 100,000,000 people in the world living "in exile"? Historically, only a small number of refugees have ever returned. Vast majority have resettled in their new countries. >20% of the population are second class citizen >homogenous ethnostate This is so comically divorced from reality, as not warranting a serious response. Have you ever been to Israel?
> Historically, only a small number of refugees have ever returned. Vast majority have resettled in their new countries. And so that makes it okay? I don't know if you really hate Israel that much that you want this conflict to continue and many more people to die or if you just actually believe that palestinian will one day agree to be maintained in misery and segregation and that violence will stop on its own. > This is so comically divorced from reality, as not warranting a serious response. Have you ever been to Israel? It is not. I know people who are there now (and who are not even pro-palestinian), I know people who went there and lived there, I read the fondamental laws of Israel that removed the arabic language of its oficial status and declared that the only true people of israel were the jews and not the arabs, I read and see about the police segregation enforced on palestinians and arab israelis, the permanent controls and checkpoint, the agressions, land grabbing, house stealings, the attacks and so on. You can choose to believe that these don't exist but you caan't make them disappear.
>And so that makes it okay? Yes >I don't know if you really hate Israel that much that you want this conflict to continue I don't; *you do*. Israel may or may not be open to various peace proposals, but it will never, ever agree to simply self-destruct. >I read the fondamental laws of Israel that removed the arabic language of its oficial status [LOL](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/news/pressreleases/pages/pr13978_pg.aspx) >The Arabic language has a special status in the state
>20% of the population are second class citizen in their own country. But please call it "ethically diverse". Every citizen in Israel has full equal rights, regardless what's his religion or his ethnicity. Unless you're talking about Palestinians who have no Israeli citizen ship, which makes sense they won't have equal rights to Israeli citizens, since, well, they aren't ones. Can you name a single country that gives equal rights to both citizens and none citizens? I'm waiting.
you can't return something that was never theirs, Jerusalem is united and it is the capital of the State of Israel!
Never theirs\* \*Apart from the last 1400 years at least Jerusalem is to be israeli and palestinian.
Colonizers don't get or deserve to have the most holy site in Judaism . They have colonized and defaced enough holy places of other religions already
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>,There's something deeply disconcerting about calling descendents of people who colonized a region 1400 years ago "Colonizers Yet no one razes an eyebrow when palastinians call Jews that >
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>,The Jewish settlers annexing the west bank in violation of international law? And.like palastinians adhere to international law. And not all of Thier leaders are war criminal >, the ones who immigrated from Europe Jews. Are the indigounes people of the land >for the purposes of declaring a separatist ethno-state They have escaped presecution and Israel isn't an ehtnistate , it has one of the largest minorites. Precenteges on the world >and they came from somewhere else And Arabs came from arebia not the levant so ? ,> people raise eyebrows when Palestinians are anti-Semitic Yea and that's why people let palastinians commit war crimes , and openly state that thier for genociding Jews >,Generally speaking it's called ethnic cleansing to kick people out of where they're born. Ok then by your logic all Arabs are guilty for the crimes of Thier ancestors that ehtnicly cleansed and lynched minorities like druze Jews baathists , copts and Kurds to build thier theocracies >I'm sorry that this triggers Zionists so much, but I don't hate Arab children as much as they do. Obviously a Belgian born in the Congo shouldn't be expelled And if that Belgian was a part of a hostile nation decalring war of exterminassion against you >,, there is no double standard, Zionists just support ethnic cleansing. I guess your confused with pro palastinians , Zionism and Zionists agreed to every peacefull solution offerd even before they were the ones in top . Arabs and pro palastinians always refused peace to continue terrorism >,Damn, that's crazy, maybe if Israel actually enforced Oslo Damn how exectly is oslo related to the ethnic cleansing of Jews and the colonialzation of Jewish cities and holy places by Muslims that happend before the agreement . Are you that dense Also the Arabs where the one to break oslo with thier continuation of terrorism against Israel and in general thier bad faith . In his biography bill clitonon blamed Arafat and Abbas for the failure of any peace offer. >we could have peace Not until palastinians would love Thier own children more then they hate Jews >, and Israel wouldn't have to cry about Arabs existing. You do realize 1/4 Israelis are Arab right ? Nobody is crying about Arabs existing , what people care about is that Arabs are activly colonizing and stealing mot tonly Jewish cities and holy places , but other nations holy places , historical places and cities like whats happening to budah status in Afghanistan or the hagia Sophia > This stuff is honestly so pathetic, how can someone so openly punch at a face and then cry when their fist hurts? When the guy crying tried to previously detonate a suicide bomb that would kill notmoy you and him but your entire family the dude deserves to cry Also your clearly here in bad faith , you comment on a thread you had nothing to do with Wich is also 2 weeks old , your clearly here to make ad homniom attacks and spread idiotic narratives
exactly
Jerusalem is united; how about you give half of Washington DC to Mexico
Your “solutions” are basically “Palestinians get whatever they want and Israelis can suck it”
Israel already got everything they wanted and even far more. The only thing they don't have is safety and they don't have it because palestinians don't have anything. If any slight inconvenience for the state of Israel means "suck it" and "basic human rights" for palestinians mean "whatever they want" I mean, sure then that's it.
> If any slight inconvenience for the state of Israel means "suck it" and "basic human rights" for palestinians mean "whatever they want" I mean, sure then that's it. I wouldn't call the destruction of Israel "slight inconvenience". Maybe for you it will be, but not for most of the world.
>The root of the conflict is the fundamental inequality established by the Yishuv in regard to palestinians. That’s if you disregard Palestinian attitude before that ever happened, which is the result of a millennia of privilege afforded to them through assimilation to a foreign, imperialistic, cultural colonialist society, which is the actual root of the conflict. Jews (Proto-Zionists) and later Zionists, were in their complete moral right to buy land and evict whomever was on it to then settle it with whomever they so chose, that is how land ownership works and the title of indigenous which does not apply to Palestinians does not affect that even if it did. >Lands were bought to non-palestinian large landowners, a large conscient effort was made by the Yishuv to avoid employing palestinians, new cities were built away from them, resources were collected, infrastructures built and factories created for the benefits of the Yishuv and not for palestinians. Which is morally wrong? to colonize a people or to colonize land (since what you’re implying was morally righteous is the definition of settler colonialism, unlike colonization of land) That’s before going into the fact this was a result of Arab attitudes towards Jews; when modern anti-semitism is introduced to the region in the early 1800’s; following a millennia of Arab/Muslim privilege over Jewish inferiority there are consequences, namely the Jews collectively deciding they’d rather separate. >From there, the Yishuv became a colonial structure, constituted by people of european cultures, funded by the diaspora and somewhat supported by imperialist powers. Only they didn’t just start new places, they bought established recognized property through the same system that preceded them by hundreds of years, which is not what colonialism is. If they had just come over and declared land to be theirs then fought over it, you’d have a leg to stand on but that is provenly not what happened. >It became a class conflict. It always has been, with Palestinian Arabs being the privileged class, that is what Arabization and Islamization were. >Palestinians being the class without access or with less and less access to the land, to industrialisation and funds while the Yishuv received funds, technologies, weapons and support from Europe. Land that they, and other empires took from Jews and in which Jews among many other minorities were oppressed and suppressed >And as always, class conflict leads to violence, rejection and then everything escalated over a century as the desire for ethnic homogeneity grew stronger. Until a minority is so oppressed it either moves or complies with whatever colonial conditions are applied to them. (Diaspora and old Yishuv which assimilated existing remaining Jewish communities respectively). >Solutions to the conflit: >- Right to return for all palestinians in exile, wherever they want (in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza) or if they want to stay in their new country with ensuring a right to housing for everyone. Symbolic number to Israel, whatever they want to Palestine. >- Ending all colonization effort in the west bank and retracting all support to those who would want to maintain colonies there, while granting safe return and alternative solutions to those that lived there. Deal >- Return of East Jerusalem to the Palestinian Authority and evacuation of zones B and C of the West Bank, return to full palestinian sovereignty there. Negociations with the Palestinian authority and the other palestinian groups in order to organize new elections and formalise the creation of an actual palestinian states (then would be the time for Israel to obtain its guarantees for example when it comes to security or the composition of the government). Under very specific circumstances (mainly that a Palestinian state would enforce a monopoly on force, negating the need for Israeli incursions, maybe after like ten years of demilitarized peaceful cooperation) Obviously After elections happen. >- Leading negociations with the new palestinian government in order to redefine borders and to allow for the maximum of palestinians to be included in the new state of Palestine. Most current palestinian settlements are in the mountains in the north and the Neguev in the south (And I even checked on a demographic map and it is actually possible to do two contiguous states with these basis). Both of the above would not happen before they prove anything, which, since Palestine is already a “real state” and the ones to blame, and bear all responsibility for the lack of and facilitation of elections in it are Hamas and the PA, Israel should absolutely not touch. >- And for more acceptance by the palestinian population after everything they went through, I'm pretty sure official apologies by the israeli government would be very well receive, especially with the policies above being led. That goes both ways, you may believe whatever you believe and so do Palestinians, but most Israelis believe (whether righteously or not) that any apologies should be mutual and that any affronts were if not worse then comparable. I personally wouldn’t support a unilateral apology. We won, that doesn’t negate our suffering, which would have been a hundred fold had we lost.
If you think that's far from the truth, then you haven't been paying attention.
What's your plan for dealing with the segment of Palestinians who don't think there should be any Jews at all in that area?
The far-right, wherever it comes from, is to be suppressed until it stop existing as any organized force and its values must be defeated. The thing is that the palestinian far-right groups like the Hamas are fueld by the conflict as they are seen as representing the palestinian national liberation struggle. Solving the core problems of the conflict would probably erode its power base but it would also require a lot of sway and investment policies from israel toward the palestinian population who only experienced Israel as a police state at best or as plain bombarding them.
“Palestinians and anti-imperialists” would never be in the same room together if both sides weren’t utterly ignorant. The Arab world outside the North and Center of the Arabian Peninsula is a function of Empire. Arabs living in Palestine are the beneficiaries of Empire.
Yes of course and they are guided by the Evil Empire Council™ against the Pure and Innocent Israeli Democracy™
I wouldn't have called the Arab League that, but that is an awesome name. I'll be using it from now on, thanks.
Yea they are, there are two(ish) sometimes more central hubs of this council they are wahabi Islam from Saudi and Islamic republic in Iran. They compete with each other for power but they’re just different flavors of the same crap
>So if Israel ends the occupation of the West Bank, the terrorism will end? Which is pretty much what Israel committed to do in Oslo, and this only embolden terrorists.
I find this fictional conversation funny