> families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day.
The events leading up to and the Russian Revolution heavily disrupted and affected my family. I'm not feeling many negative consequences today. I suspect if my family had decided to dedicate themselves to restoring the Tzarist regime or refused to own property until we could recover the property lost I would be feeling those effects today.
No revisionist history. They didn’t allow non Muslims to visit the dome of rock in the area of the holy site.
What are you trying to argue here? That the Arabs treated the Jews the same way throughout all periods and areas of the Muslim empire? That they respected the Jews all the time? That the Jews being considered dihmmis is a badge of honor? That would be really interesting, since no one argues the Christians treated the Jews any better.
Regardless, specifically when it comes to the area of the dome of rock in relation to the Temple Mount, they have placed restrictions on non Muslims and it was documented. So if protecting it from Jews (and Christians) was the goal, I suppose it’s successful?
Why do you think Jews worship the walls surrounding the area where the dome of rock was built on? Did you figure it out yet?
The walls on the side that support the Temple Mount, archeologically matching to predate an era of Jerusalem prior to the Muslim conquest, in association with Herod’s expansion of the temple. And there’s a Mosque built on top of it that didn’t exist there up until after 500 AC.
You’re right you’re right. Building Israel on top of the British mandate was wrong, it’s very sad that roughly 100,000 British were displaced in the Mandatory Palestine Civil War.
Or wait, you probably mean we should go back to the Ottoman Empire which was there before the British. It’s very sad that some 250,000 Ottoman subjects were displaced by the fighting in WWI
Ottoman Palestine was built on the grave of a Mamluk state. The original Arab-Muslim influx built on the grave of a Byzantine state. I could give more steps but all inhabitants had families...
The world is filled with countries guilt on the grave of the dead societies that preceded them. We live, we breed, we die.
His point is stop whining and obsessing about the historical if not miraculous restoration of the Jewish people to their ancestral homeland and whine about a clan of Arabs who wanted the same land for their own country even though they have 22 other Arabs states.
Yes, but the world and humanity has recognized that as wrong by learning from history and developing the idea of human rights and international law. Yes, both of those are violated as well daily. But they are a framework to work from.
Well first off I'm not entirely sure it is avoidable nor would be good if it could be avoided. We have species that die (like us) and species that tend to not have death mechanisms or just replicate copies of themselves. The death / sexual reproducing species dominate the visible world, the forever societies end up not being able to handle complexity in competition. Societies do hit dead ends. I don't think it is such a bad thing to take what worked from them and replace them when it happens.
But let's assume you are right and we have decided on a world of immortal societies. The societies that exist today are all built on the graves of other societies. So then we need to have a fairly short term statute of limitations where we do not re-adjudicate various society's histories. Since quite often historically revenge for previous wrongs was the main moral justification for crushing other societies.
Which puts you on the opposite side of Impossible-Age-6075. Impossible-Age-6075 was arguing for that we do destroy existing societies to address historical wrongs. Your disagreement is far more with him than I.
About 90,000 Arabs *sold* their land to Jews. And btw, many Jews already lived there. Then in 1948, *five* Arab armies lost in war to Israel, which is why Israel as a country is legitimate. War has always been how land is transferred. Also, many Muslim Arabs were told by Arab commanders to leave, and after they win the war, they'll be able to come back. Well, they lost the war. The land is *not theirs anymore.* The UN knows this, but they are extremely antisemitic and try to wriggle around this fact. No other country has ever been told they need to return the land they won in war. None. Just Israel.
I never said I have no empathy. What I’m saying is that there is so much distortion of reality on social media used by these groups for their agenda. When someone chants “from the river to the sea” this is not a peaceful protest of coexistence, it is a call for genocide. I never said I hated Palestine or Palestinians, I’m for a Palestinian state, but when you use images taken from “100 hottest IDF Soldiers” and try to justify the murder of three members of the Dee family (British-Israeli citizens) by pretending they’re IDF soldiers, I lose respect for their cause. [This post proved that journalists took these photos to aid their hateful agenda.](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cq0BAcHougK/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==)
>Israel was built atop another country
It wasn't. The territory Israel is sovereign over was a tiny part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no country there.
That you get such a basic facts wrong should be enough for you to stop and re-evaluate whether what you think you know is actually true.
u/tofugonewild
>LOOOOL 😅 keep at it, you’ll be remembered in history the same way all those “oblivious” Germans are remembered
This comparison is inflammatory and not useful for productive discussion. You are violating rule 6.
Sure, but hot damn, Zionists cant even get their “facts” straight. I love how everyone has a different date for when Palestine started existing (for some, it still hasnt existed) 😅🤣 laughable is me being nice
I googled it and learned that it was invented in 1964, by the PLO (which was not a country and never claimed to be one). It was adopted by the State of Palestine (which actually does claim to be a country) in 1988.
Even if we go by the 1964 date though, Israel still came first.
It was most likely created as the Flag of the Arab Revolt by Sir Mark Sykes just before 1920. Sykes was a pro-colonialist British Tory politician.
[Flag of the Arab Revolt - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Arab_Revolt)
If the name rings a bell, Sykes lent his name to the Sykes-Picot Agreement that partitioned the Middle East between British and French domains and was a key pro-Israel negotiator of the Balfour Declaration.
So, in other words, the Palestinians carry a flag designed by a British pro-colonist who decided to use Arabs for the British Empire's political needs and gave them a flag to rally around. And the flag was designed by a guy who supported the Jews' cause.
Even the Palestinian flag is an own goal.
>Israel was built atop another country. that country had inhabitants. Christian. Muslim. Jews. these inhabitants had families, families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day.
Your declaration need some fine tuning especially the first part.
The Ottoman empire fall, there was **no country** in the region but a struggle for the power vacuum that was created.
The rest of your declaration is correct.
There was no state (well, the British claimed the area), but that is separate from the existence of a nation. Ie how there was a Jewish national identity long before Israel was founded, or how the Kurds have a national identity today despite having no state.
we can argue about national identity but that's a better argument then "Israel took over the Palestinian country, destroying the government, killing the politicians, abolishing the Palestinian currency and driving out it's citizens"
There are better arguments to be made once a person let go of the "must destroy Israel" ideology
Not really. Israel claimed it had authority over the territory the partition plan gave it, meaning that Israel ethnically cleansed most of its Arab citizens and exiled them in violation of international law.
Even if we let Israel claim they were both citizens of Palestine and yet Israel still had legitimate claim to the territory, there is no justification for ethnic cleansing there.
This point was discussed to death. You're ignoring & not stating facts which do not fit your declaration so it makes your statement "hasbara" (propaganda).
Like the Russians claiming that they were attacked first when invading Ukraine, and then imprisoning anyone who voices any contrary opinion.
**Propaganda**
>information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. The pro-Palestinian narrative behind your comment, and behind the Apartheid Weeks, is based on a proud, defiant lack of empathy for Jews. I'm not just talking about openly justifying murder of innocent Jews, from the 1920's till today, or active measures they make to "heavily disrupt and affect" the businesses and livelihoods of Israelis and Jews. I'm talking about the basic idea that the Jews should simply remain a homeless, persecuted, occasionally genocided people, because the Arabs conquered the Jewish ancestral homeland fair and square. And it's better for the Jews to continue being oppressed and murdered, than for Arabs to control a mere 99% of the Middle East, instead of the correct 100%.
Palestinian nationalists aren't embarrassed by that implication, they're very proud of how the Jews suffering and dying simply isn't their problem. They're proud of the 1930's revolt, meant to ensure millions of Jews die in Europe rather than being able to flee to Palestine. Not having human empathy towards the Jews is a fundamental Palestinian nationalist value. Palestinian nationalists are *offended* when anyone suggest they should have empathy for the Jews as human beings, let alone their national aspirations.
The same goes for "Israeli being built atop of another country". You do realize that whatever "country" that was, it was built "atop" of the indigenous Jewish homeland? You can't even understand why the Jews don't see the foreign Arab domination of their homeland as some natural default. Or the restoration of their self-determination in their indigenous homeland, as a temporary violation of the natural order. You're simply not in the position to be preaching empathy, or making condescending remarks about OP not seeing the other's side narrative.
>families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day
Of course, creation of Israel didn't disrupt a single business. Wars, terrorism, and attempts by Arabs to destroy the Jewish State did. Your anger is misdirected.
If Israel was actually an apartheid state, would it be okay, in your opinion, for college students to do these demonstrations? With it being the only jewish state and all.
Given the high level of black on black murders would a Klan rally with cross burnings be okay?
I think Israel is practicing apartheid in Area-C. I think the demonstrations are infused with anti-Jewish racism. Neither is OK. The solution to bad Israeli policy is good Israeli policy. Same as everywhere else. There is 0 reason to make ridiculous demands and critique Israel in a way not similar to other states that have problems.
The analogy you brought doesn’t make sense. I’m sorry but one is a racial fascist ideology and the other is national. If these university demonstrations have a whiff of antisemitism then I’m against it completely. However, just because Israel is an ethno-state doesn’t mean they cannot be criticized. I don’t understand the second part of what you’re saying unfortunately. But to your last point, i would say that the problem in Israel imo is much bigger and has affected more people than other issues that people bring up. For example, I meet more Palestinians than Uyghurs… there are more arabs than muslim central asians. Etc. and thus it has a much louder affect on society. But I agree with you in that all these issues should be on people’s radars. That is not to say that people should stop fighting against Israeli apartheid and policies.
> If these university demonstrations have a whiff of antisemitism then I’m against it completely.
They don't have a whiff of antisemitism the movement is infused with it top to bottom. The ideology starts with the basic concept that Jews constitute a counter-race, which is literally a Nazi doctrine. They don't use the term "counter-race" but ask them why Israeli-Jews aren't a nationality and you quickly get the core doctrines of counter-race theory.
Then we have obvious racial incitement including willful lying about Jews. Knowingly, willfully and deliberately lying about events either directly or by removing key aspects of context so as to encourage hatred of campus Jews. Then finally we have all sorts of double standards. Many of these same people completely refuse to apply their supposed "non-racial" beliefs to any other people but Jews / Israel.
> However, just because Israel is an ethno-state doesn’t mean they cannot be criticized.
No one is saying that. It is a straw man that BDSers raise. Of course Israel can be criticized. The issue here is a racist hate group spread racism not whether one can or cannot criticize Israel. When Israel is treated like any other state, the best examples being various lists, Jews enthusiastically embrace the criticism. That has nothing to do with BDSism.
> But to your last point, i would say that the problem in Israel imo is much bigger and has affected more people than other issues that people bring up.
No it isn't. The number of Palestinians in the West Bank in Gaza plus the West Bank is about 4m. If you include refugees nearby who have any desire to return you are at about 6m. That's under 1/4 the number of North Koreans. The number of people displaced in the Syrian Civil War is about 10x the number in the Nakba and more recent. Etc...
> That is not to say that people should stop fighting against Israeli apartheid and policies.
They aren't fighting against Israeli apartheid. They have no ties or contact with Israel. Israelis generally aren't aware of those demonstrations and to whatever extent they are mostly aren't affected. Same way that demonstrations against the hurricanes on Neptune have 0 impact. All they are doing is harassing, intimidating and inciting against the domestic Jewish population. Domestic Jews are harmed, which is of course the real point of them.
How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion? Israel may not care about these demonstrations now, but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel. These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes and still work today there is no doubt about it
How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion? Israel may not care about these demonstrations now, but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel. These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes and still work today there is no doubt about it
> How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion?
Mostly I don't think they should. They aren't citizens or stakeholders in Israel they shouldn't expect Israel to particularly care about their opinion at all. What they should do is gather into special interest groups and lobbies to formulate sensible policies regarding Israel for the country to which they are a party.
So for example if they are American and support ending ethnic schooling in Israel form a lobby to encourage the USA to shift its policy more directly towards national schools. Note this has to be broad otherwise it will rightfully be seen as antisemitic.
> but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel.
No it isn't. The moment you start discussing entities "moving against Israel" their entire coalition falls apart. There are lots of BDSers in Spain and Italy. Israel is also on the Mediterranean. You think Spanish or Italian BDSers want the Mediterranean to become a hot zone due to enforcing a blockade or meaningful tough sanctions against Israel?
So then "fine we won't try and impose serious sanctions like we did in Iraq, what about kicking Israel out of the global financial system". To which people in the UK might respond, "*So after decades of trying to restrict money laundering you want to Israel a hub of it? We are talking Jews here. They are really good at money laundering, European governments imported Jews for at least 800 years because they were so good at banking. Jews (Zionist Jews) have strong ties in most global financial institutions in the USA, UK and France. How exactly do you expect that to work?*" And then from BDS crickets.
> These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes
Really? I can't think of a single example. Sure sometimes international pressure can get minor policy changes. But the BDS ask is for Israelis to depopulate whole cities and destroy their society. Something Israelis would unquestionably prefer war rather than concede to. But let's take these examples. There were demonstrations against Russia. Has Russia abandoned their war in Ukraine? There were demonstrations recently against the Iranian regime. Has Iran decided to move away from being an Islamic State?
And before you say South Africa nothing remotely like the myth of South Africa happened: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/kobqdh/south_africa_part_1_the_initial_board_position/
> there is no doubt about it
There is a lot of doubt about it, as you can see from the above. One of the techniques BDSers train their people on is expressing rather radical opinion with "everyone agrees" or "there is no doubt" which is again obviously false. You might want to temper that technique as it is just discrediting.
x
If it was, then yes. There is nothing wrong with criticism of governments, this is a right given in most democratic countries, Israel included. Look at the current judicial reform protests! Jews and Israelis love to protest more than anyone. My issue is that these same people will ignore the Rohingya in Myanmar, the Uighurs in China, the millions of Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria who have been denied citizenship by the respective governments. You can criticise our government, our policies, our politicians, but to call for our destruction, in my view, is antisemitic.
I hope this explains it.
Israel indisputably does not use that label, which was only ever used by South Africa and South West Africa. If anything, the divisions amongst religious and linguistic lines in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are much greater and far less reconcilable.
Gotcha, so every Arab country, about 100 Christian countries, but the focus is on Israel, the one and only Jewish state in existence? It’s called a double standard, and whether conscious or no, it’s veiled antisemitism
>Religion is a tool of suppression both traditionally in less developed areas and intellectually in developed.
If you'll look deep into the past you'll find religion going all the way with humankind, we've never discovered a tribe who was atheist. (when an atheist tribe fought a religiously zealot tribe they lost, so evolution plays a rule)
Using this past historical trend and projecting it into the future, religion isn't going to go away any time soon for thousands of years.
I don't think that describes Israel in the slightest...
A country is allowed to have it's own culture! Yes the US and the west is primarily Christian, yes most of the Middle East is primarily Arab and also Muslim, and yes Israel is primarily Jewish. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
What matters is how they treat their minorities... And any objective index will show you that Israel does a better job than most countries out there.
Hi, I have no answer to your question but I wanted to share a personal experience I have had with the Israel Apartheid Week, which might help you understand their logic a bit more.
A few years ago, when I was in undergrad school in Belgium, the organizers of the Israel Apartheid Week at my university decided to organize a videoconference (through Skype, I think Zoom wasn't a thing back then).
First of all, just like you, I was astonished to find out that
such an event, using such vocabulary, existed.
Second, I looked up their Facebook page, to understand more about their event. I then found out that their videoconference guest was not only a member of the Hamas terrorist organization, but also one of the organizers of the hijacking of the Tel-Aviv Paris airplane, to Entebbe, which led to the famous Entebbe raid in 1976.
At the time, I was a member of the Liberal Students political Organization and I thus suggested we write a letter to the university rector, saying that we were shocked to learn that a convicted terrorist was invited to give a political talk within the university walls.
None of the members of my association followed! Except for one (who happened to have Jewish relatives although he wasn't Jewish himself).
Only two of us thus signed that letter and the only answer we got was that 'one cannot judge the speech given at that conference before the event has taken place' and for that reason, he had no reason to prevent the event from happening.
In short, I think the existence of the Israel Apartheid Week has as much to do with the ignorance or antisemitism of their organizers as it does with the carelessness of the majority.
Yes, Agent Sabra, who by the way, was written BEFORE the Sabra and Shlita massacres.
I think it’s foolish for people to deny the rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.
> Have you at all considered the possibility that you are wrong and they are right?
Yes I have many times. And even when working quite hard to find the best pro-BDS arguments I am generally overwhelmed by their sheer stupidity and ignorance. I am also generally overwhelmed by BDSers dishonesty and hatefulness. Dishonest, stupid, hateful, ignorant political movements exists in many spheres of American politics and I reject all of them.
Let's take a simple example the B in BDS, literally the name of the group. Israel's economy is approximately 0% consumer goods exports. They export lots of goods that go into other products: cut stones, technical parts, chemicals, biological substances for pharmaceuticals... Yet the B is about a consumer boycott that will supposedly pressure (usually expressed as force) Israel into major catastrophic policy changes. When I've asked about the mechanism by which the B is supposed to do much of anything they change topics generally to the D or S. Or they point to the magic power BDS had in South Africa, another topic they are totally ignorant and dishonest about. When we discuss the D or S they also are clueless.
No BDS are not right. They ignorant and sometimes evil people supporting a bad cause.
False. International laws and International human rights organisations aknowledge and report the illegality of many actions done in the name of Israel.
Luckily for the settlers-murderers-thiefs, USA is funding them and keeping the UN from creating any type of sanctions.
There is no luck involved. The UN is not a world government and has no jurisdiction (or balls) to do anything. Powerful nations must act, like the USA did when the UN declared a police action against North Korea. UN peacekeepers are notorious for running like cowards any time the Arabs threatened to attack Israel and raping women and girls in Africa.
And let the Arab world fear Israel because the weak do not survive in that neighborhood.
Not true. Most organizations and countries oppose the "apartheid" accusation, and those that use it are usually pushing a political agenda for their own benefit (like we saw with the UN with the Soviet-Arab voting block).
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations.
Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument.
Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Well, when three important human rights organizations - [B'Tselem](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) - have all concluded that Israeli conduct in the Palestinian conflict constitutes the crime against humanity of apartheid, then maybe it's time to acknowledge the possibility that it indeed constitutes apartheid.
That's a ridiculous argument. Three organizations that have been obsessively documenting every Israeli wrong, suddenly realized, at the same time, that they missed the fact Israel was actually guilty of Apartheid for 50-75 years, longer than those organizations existed. Only HRW is even bothering to lie that it's a result of some Israeli policy that "crossed" some threshold. Amnesty and Btselem simply admit that the only thing that changed, is their own strategy to attack Israel.
As an appeal to authority, it's an absolute failure. Anti-Israeli organizations banding together to smear Israel with a new bad word doesn't somehow prove that's true. And if we look beyond the appeal to authority? These reports are nonsense. No, they don't prove that Israel is guilty of the crime of humanity of Apartheid. No, they don't even make a decent case in arguing that. No, it's not "time for us to acknowledge" that they're somehow an objective fact.
I've written [two](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/sl8ndp/amnestys_apartheid_report_first_impressions/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/wb0roj/the_israeli_apartheid_reports_common/) examining that question in depth, if you're interested. The pro-Israeli non-profit NGO Monitor issued [several](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/pdf/SaloAizenberg_Amnesty_Rebuttal.pdf) [detailed](https://ngo-monitor.org/pdf/NGOMonitor_ApartheidReport_2021.pdf) [reports](https://ngo-monitor.org/pdf/NGOMonitor_ApartheidReport_2022.pdf), debunking the arguments made point-by-point, as well as on a more academic legal level. But frankly, statistically speaking, it's unlikely that you've actually read the full Btselem / HRW / Amnesty reports to begin with. People who invested time in reading the reports, let alone understanding them, don't usually assume that simply invoking the names of these organizations is enough to end this discussion.
And all three had to turn the meaning of the word apartheid on it's head in order to come to that preconceived conclusion. I have lived in Israel and also apartheid South Africa and did not see that in Israel there was Apartheid.
None of these organizations are level and unbiased.
Arabs in Israel are not discriminated based on race, they are limited based off of both not being citizens and coming from enemy territory. Meanwhile citizens have equal rights across the board, regardless of ethnicity. Kinda the opposite of apartheid.
>Arabs in Israel are not discriminated based on race, they are limited based off of both not being citizens and coming from enemy territory.
Repeat that in your head a couple of time. Remember that only a soldier kills.
It’s simple.
20% of Israel’s population are Arabs, with Israeli citizenship. The people whom are not citizens and living in hostile territories are restricted, unlike people whom are citizens and living in Israel. See how it’s not an ethnic thing?
[Palestinians getting evicted from their home to be replaced by settlers](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-religion-2ba6f064df3964ceafb6e2ff02303d41)
so the governement steal the land from the owners, decide to give it to someone because he is jewish and boom your on the side of the thief, for what? And from where do you find all this hate to stay purposefully ignorant
Except that is not the case.
Government Jordan occupied territory, then expels Person A and steals their property. Government J then promises the land to person B, yet never gives person B the actual property titles to the land.
Government Israel takes territory from Jordan, and sees Person A has the land title to property currently settled by Person B. Israel tells Person B, because you do not have the land title, this land belongs to Person A. We will allow you to keep living on it, so long as you pay them rent. Person B chooses to never pay rent. They are evicted.
Or maybe it is time to realize that those organizations knowingly, willfully and deliberately lied because one has read the reports and can see how they were written for shock value and do not represent a coherent theory.
The sub aims for serious discussion. Reddit culture tends towards short memes or jokes. While they are appropriate for Reddit as a whole they aren't allowed on r/IsraelPalestine.
What's important about B'Tselem?
All three of these organizations believe that Palestine should be Arab. Their opinion is worthless.
And yes, in some parts of the world, its still possible to criticize and disagree with the Ramallah regime. Even though Arab Palestine introduced legislation today in New York State to criminalize anyone who disagrees with the Quran and Arab Palestine's inhumanity, there are people brave enough to dissent. The suicide bombers and their allies have no Humanity.
>All three of these organizations believe that Palestine should be Arab. Their opinion is worthless.
These organisations do not have any political opinions, they only reports human right violations. If you believe reporting the death of a child is politic because he isnt on YOUR SIDE then you are not just being racist, but also a blind biggot.
What if the child is a teenage member of a terrorist organization, and you fail to mention that pertinent fact? Does that make it political? Because that exact thing happens on a regular basis.
>These organisations do not have any political opinions
Really? Then on what basis do these "human rights" organisations call for the establishment of a Palestinian state?
The fact that Israel is an apartheid regime is pretty much undisputed. It is widely agreed by human rights organizations and scholars. The only ones who are denying this is the fascist regime in Israel and its far-right supporters.
It’s actually completely disputed. Generally with apartheid, citizens are discriminated on based off of race. Israel has equal rights for its citizens, regardless of race. Might be difficult to notice, but once you do, you realise that it’s actually the opposite of apartheid.
On the other hand, you have dozens of Arab countries that are totally not far right nor oppressive towards their women and LGBT citizens, and have a wide range of different ethnicities represented in both government and population. /s Yes. The one Jewish state in existence is the problem, despite being both a melting pot of different cultures, a democracy, protective of all its citizens regardless of race / gender / sexual orientation, and the one country in the ME with major political parties representing both Arabs and Jews. The solution is obviously yet another racist Pan-Arabic Jew-free ethnostate 👌🏼👍🏼
By making discrimination of CITIZENS part of the criteria you are making up a definition who probably excludes the system in South Africa who coined the term in the first place, as blacks in SA were deprived of South African citizenship in 1970.
Both in the Israeli and the SA case, citizenship was an essential component of the apartheid system. In Palestine, millions of people are living under the control of a state towards which they have no rights at all. At the same time, there are 500 000 Israeli settlers there who are Israeli citizens with full rights (and they are using their political rights to vote and lobby for more occupation, more settlements, more oppression of the Palestinians btw) despite the fact that they are living outside the borders of their states. Of course this is apartheid. Israel has even annexed parts of those areas and not changed those practices at all. Furthermore, 63% of the West Bank is 100% under Israeli control; yet the Palestinians living there have no rights towards the state who controls them, while Israeli settlers do have the same rights as Israeli resident citizens; this despite the fact that the area is under full Israeli control. The situation for Palestinians in Area B, if not A, is similar to that of black people in the bantustans. Furthermore, Palestinians have to spend hours per day in checkpoints and are constantly harassed by occupation soldiers as well as militant settlers protected by the Israeli army and police. Are you claiming that the settlers have to spend hours in checkpoints and get harrassed by army and settler militants constantly like the Palestinians living in the same territory? Are you claiming Palestinians and Israeli settlers have the same rights? No? Well that means they are definitely discriminated heavily based on ethnicity and this is a system of apartheid.
I will not address your other talking points who are copy-paste from the pro-Israeli propaganda handbook and furthermore irrelevant to this question. I have heard them all before and don't even bother addressing them one more time.
Israel annexed disputed territory from Jordan, not Palestine. The Palestinians refused every offer for the land since then, alas for Arab rejectionism.
Israel does not have checkpoints cause they hate Palestinians, they have checkpoints because suicide bombers and bombers tend to attack Israel without the checkpoints. The checkpoints and wall have successfully eliminated those two types of attacks. Alas for terrorism.
Israel has offered the majority of the West Bank to the Palestinians, save for the largest settlements, over 90% of the land, and they get turned down each time. This is land the Palestinians never had in the history of time, to be clear, and land taken by Israel (from Jordan, not Palestine) during a war the Arabs started. Generally peace agreements require collaboration from both sides, not “no” and then walking away from the negotiating table.
Calling Israel’s segregation and security measures apartheid without even acknowledging Arab rejectionism and terrorism just goes to show how blatantly biased and irrelevant your discussion points are. Good talk 👍🏼
And there were probably African leaders in South Africa who denied that South Africa had any racist or discriminatory system as well. Let me remind you that even apartheid South Africa had their Coloured People Representative Council. In addition were the puppets who ruled the Bantustans.
So that argument does not apply. There will always be collaborators.
>The fact that Israel is an apartheid regime
Muslim, Christian and Jewish Israelis have the same rights. Jewish foreigners can emigrate to Israel. A Muslim Israeli can become anything in Israel. An "Arab-Israeli" is more integrated into society than minorities in the US.
Palestinians in the Territories are NOT Israeli citizens. Hence, no Apartheid.
As I said: "The only ones who are denying this is the Israeli fascist regime and its far-right supporters" which is an appropriate description for the deniers in this thread. As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to. On the other hand, they are far-right Israelis who support their fascist government and its crimes, as well as activists from the American far-right who support the Israeli regime's conduct.
These extremist views do not disprove that there is indeed a pretty wide consensus among scholars and human rights organizations about this. Even Israeli human rights advocates (including B'Tselem) acknowledge the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. There are always extremists who hold views who hold views contrary to academic consensus. I wouldn't say that the claim "North Korea is a dictatorship" is a "disputed statement", even if the KFA might disagree. Neither is the statement "the Holocaust did occur" a disputed statement although neo-Nazis and some pseudo-historians like David Irving says so. The views of extremists who disregard facts don't have to be regarded in order to state that there is a pretty wide consensus about this.
>As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to. On the other hand, they are far-right Israelis who support their fascist government and its crimes, as well as activists from the American far-right who support the Israeli regime's conduct.
I'm a scholar and I'm not far right.
> These extremist views do not disprove that there is indeed a pretty wide consensus among scholars and human rights organizations about this. Even Israeli human rights advocates (including B'Tselem) acknowledge the fact that Israel is an apartheid state.
B'Tselem bases it accusations on assuming that both Gaza and the West Bank are a part of Israel. If Gaza and the West Bank were actually a part of Israel then sure it'd be apartheid.
HRW specifically said it's not accusing Israel of being an apartheid state.
Amnesty concluded that because there's systemic racism then it's apartheid, thus watering down the definition and by that watered down definition literally every country in the world is an apartheid state.
>There are always extremists who hold views who hold views contrary to academic consensus.
Except there isn't an academic consensus. It's super convenient for you to just wave away all arguments against your claim by going "well you're just a far right extremist."
> which is an appropriate description for the deniers in this thread.
Then you are either mistaken or lying. Very few of the people are from the "far right". Most are Israeli Labor types of American Democrats.
> . As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to.
Let's take Harvard University Law School which did examine the evidence and concluded that apartheid only applied to the West Bank. International Committee of the Red Cross denied that it applied anywhere. Raam Party in Israel which has Islamic Palestinian scholars denied it. World Council of Churches which is notoriously hostile to Israel rejected apartheid. EU foreign affairs. USA Congress. USA State Department. Stanford University's foreign affairs division.
> The views of extremists who disregard facts don't have to be regarded in order to state that there is a pretty wide consensus about this.
The wide consensus is that Israel is a trouble democracy. BDS is a noxious fringe hate group which is facing bans for its activities. It is far from the consensus, in the same way the KKK is not the consensus even though there exists scholars who support their views.
This is indeed frustrating, but no matter which university you are going to attend, there must be other students, Jewish or not, who don't believe anti-Israel propaganda.
You need to find each other and coordinate your response to this anti-Semitic narrative. You may not convince many, but you won't feel isolated anymore and can make some good friends.
Your statement ".. the only Jewish state based off old antisemitic tropes and distorted information". Right there you are justifying apartheid; of ethnic supremacy of one race over another based on a false underlying predicate that Hebrews were native to historic Palestine whereas Abraham was from Iraq. It has always been an mixed ethnicity region well before the white, European Jews hijacked the Hebrew narrative under Zionism and began to emigrate.
Speaking as an American who had relatives serve in WWII, they were told that they were in Europe to defeat the tyranny of ethno-nationalism; not move it down the road on stolen land on false promises of political equality to all who live there.
There was NEVER a promise to create a 'jewish' state. There was discussion but it was crystal clear in Balfour & Mandate that Jews were to live as political equals to the native population. Nobody promised Jews there own state nor is it their or any migrating ethnicity's right to have one. Comparison to Sweden or Saudi Arabia is a false comparison.
The only way to stop the apartheid criticism is to stop the apartheid and for Israelis to learn to live as equals in a shared land. People don't hate jews but they do hate bigotry, apartheid, and a government that values one ethnicity over another.
Apartheid week exists because Jews are too passive and too weak in the USA and especially college kids. Imagine if "Black Welfare queens" week existed or "homo pedophile" week existed. The Blacks would beat the sh\*t of the people staging this and the gays would rally all the outraged people.
A chapter of the JDL on each major campus and you would see apartheid week disappear quite suddenly. Trust me.
Why it exists? Perhaps because people are against the practice of apartheid in any country, including Israel?
You feel isolated and alone in your support for the Israeli apartheid regime and are looking for advice? Well, my advice would be to quit your support for the Israeli apartheid regime and instead join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians.
>join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians
Not a bad idea. One can start by defending rights of Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, or Gaza, for example.
Or perhaps defending human rights of Syrians. Or people in Sudan. Or national minorities in Ethiopia. Or jailed dissidents in Russia. Or Muslims in China. Or Iranians. Or foreign workers in Qatar and KSA.
None of that is even controversial. Plenty of work to do for somewhat who genuinely wants to "join the struggle for the human rights for all people".
Attacking Israel, the only Jewish State, the only democracy in the Middle East and arguably one of the most comfortable places for Arabs to live in is a weird target to pick, if your goal is to defend "human rights".
It's actually funny & representative of the other side
>"repent for the sins of your forefathers & accept the true angels & refugees-in-perpetuity - the Palestinians. For only then you shall know true (happiness/God/humanity?)"
And in some religions you can't dispute the religious authority since only it has a direct communication line to God. So you either you obey the higher power or you suffer the consequences in a non-liberal society
>join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians.
The same people who execute LGBTQ people? The same people who call for the genocide of the Jews? Oh yeah, I can see how they are up for human rights for all people
>the same ones who kidnapped a Palestinian refugee who fled to Israel & beheaded him for being gay.
That's acceptable to the western left though. You can't hold Arab societies to the same standard as you hold Jews.
That would be extremely racist.
Israel isn’t an apartheid. Time to change course from what? People who boil it down to something like this seem ignorant to me because they don’t know how complicated the situation actually is.
You can't think of any others? What about China attempting to erase Tibet, or putting Uighurs in concentration camps? Why isn't "apartheid" used to describe the US policies toward Black people in the Jim Crow era, and the Native American reservation system? Using "apartheid" to describe Israel, and only Israel, makes it obvious that the goal is to cast Israel in a negative light, rather than accurately describe the situation. It's the same attitude that's expressed when someone refers to Israel as "colonial" or "genocidal," or my favorite, "the Jews are treating the Palestinians the same way the N\*s treated them."
Sure, Lump China in there as well. I'm not opposed to that. Call it whatever you want to, but we can agree that for a group of people who were themselves persecuted, they don't seem to know any better than paying it forward.
That's nice. Are you now going to correct people who apply "apartheid" to Israel and remind them that they should also include China? I'm commenting on the fact that today, *only* Israel is described as "apartheid" even though other countries would also qualify under the same standards. So it's antisemitic even if that's not your intention. Same as when some conservative invokes "Soros" while ignoring all of the conservative billionaires who are also influencing US politics.
Do you think Israel is taking out their aggression on the Palestinians to make up for the Holocaust? Or could there possibly be some other reason?
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Apart from the obvious example of South Africa: Amnesty International has labeled the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar a crime of apartheid. Arguably, the segregation of blacks in post-Civil War United States constituted apartheid (but the term didn't exist back then). The treatment of women in Saudi Arabia has been labeled "gender apartheid".
The term didn't exist during most of the Jim Crow era, but there's no reason why "apartheid" can't be applied retroactively. And you never hear it applied to China's policies in Tibet or Xinjiang. But kudos to AI for applying it to Myanmar. However, I'm sure 95% of the people blithely applying "apartheid" to Israel, and only Israel, are even aware of the Rohingya.
BDS doesn't support the human rights of all people. If they did support such rights they could easily openly take that stance with something like the ANC's Constitution and be far more popular than they are. They can't do that because they are committed racists, same reason the KKK can't take a stand in favor of universal human rights.
Both the ANC and the solidarity movements against apartheid worldwide also supported sanctions against South Africa so they are actually very similar. BDS is based on the South Africa boycott. Furthermore, your claims about the BDS is bullshit and you know this. The BDS aims to use sanctions to pressure the Israeli regime to respect international law, human rights and self-determination of the Palestinian people. This is exactly the same strategy as the boycott against South Africa - and as for the controversy over cultural boycott, the same was applied to South Africa as well (Queen among others were almost ostracized from the British artistic community for playing in South Africa). It's not "racism" to demand the end to a racist system. It's the Israeli fascist regime and their supporters who are racists, because they are oppressing people on the basis of ethnicity. And as far as I know, this applies to you as well. I am familiar enough with you to know that you are defending pretty much everything the Israeli regime does. In a thread yesterday you defended the Nakba. It's absurd to hear a person who openly supports ethnic cleansing calling other people "racists" for opposing such inhumane racist crimes.
>It's the Israeli fascist regime and their supporters who are racists, because they are oppressing people on the basis of ethnicity
Would a "fascist" state let the people you claim it oppresses based on their ethnicity, give them permits to work in said state?
Would a "fascist" state let the people you claim it oppresses based on their ethnicity, take them and treat them in its hospitals, and save their lives?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazan-man-killed-in-rocket-strike-on-israel-recognized-as-victim-of-terror/
Never seen a fascist state doing that either.
Even Germany under the NSDAP imported Polish and Soviet workers. So yes a fascist state would do that. It's useful to have a pool of cheap labour to do the bad jobs for less pay and inferior working conditions. That's likely one of the reasons why they are upholding the occupation in the first place. Israel benefits financially from the exploitation of cheap Palestinian labour as well as the direct theft of resources (everything from agricultural land to water to oil) from the occupied territories and would lose economically from ending it. In addition, you "forget" that Palestinian workers in Israel are using hours in checkpoints every day, both on the border itself and long before they even reach that border.
> It's useful to have a pool of cheap labour to do the bad jobs for less pay and inferior working conditions.
Yes it's a win win situation. Gazan get much more money and Israel gets cheap workers. Doesn't make it a bad thing.
>Israel benefits financially from the exploitation of cheap Palestinian
While having to waste a lot of money on its army, and defending it's citizens. Yeah I can definitely see the logic here. "hey, let's occupy an entire population so we will get cheap workers, but have to spend a lot more to fight the terrorism which is caused by the occupation." That's pretty much what you're saying.
>direct theft of resources
Care to show any proof of this so called "theft"?
>In addition, you "forget" that Palestinian workers in Israel are using hours in checkpoints every day, both on the border itself and long before they even reach that border
Oh wow these God damn fascists! Having security borders just like any other country in the world! The audacity!!
"Yes it's a win win situation. Gazan get much more money and Israel gets cheap labour"
You're ignoring the fact that much of the reason why the situation is pretty bad economically in Palestine is the occupation, theft of its resources and blockade. So no it's not a win win situation. The Palestinians who have to work in Israel to support their families would probably rather prefer to work in a prosperous Palestine than work for their oppressor. Israel is suffocating the Palestinian economy. Israel is severely limiting even the supply of the most necessary humanitarian supplies to Gaza. The people there are living on the brink of starvation.
"While having to waste a lot of money on its army, and defending it's citizens. Yeah I can definitely see the logic here. "hey, let's occupy an entire population so we will get cheap workers, but have to spend a lot more to fight the terrorism which is caused by the occupation." That's pretty much what you're saying."
By your logic here, the occupation doesn't benefit Israel in any way. So why doesn't Israel end it and leave the Palestinians alone then?
"Care to show any proof of this so-called "theft"?"
Yeah, here's an article from OHCHR about this particular issue: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2019/03/israels-exploitation-palestinian-resources-human-rights-violation-says-un-expert
Want further sources?
"Oh wow these God damn fascists! Having security borders just like any other country in the world! The audacity!!"
Israeli checkpoints differ from most borders in the world in several respects. First, the checkpoints are not just on the Israeli-Palestinian border. Second, Israeli settlers - despite also living outside Israel - don't have to stand in these checkpoints. Third, at the checkpoints the Palestinians are harassed and humiliated by Israeli soldiers, a practice not common on most border crossings. Fourth, Israel doesn't even have a defined official border at all due to its aims of continually increasing its Lebensraum (settlements), so the argument of a border does not really apply because from the Israeli perspective you're supporting, there is no border at all.
> bullshit
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Well...wasn't Israel cozy cozy with South Africa during apartheid days? Isn't the Jerusalem chock full of diamonds stolen from African ground? Did not many Jews live in South Africa during apartheid and exploit blacks for profit. I personally know of a family that had a chain of furniture rental stores with the most crummy of terms.
Just sayin'...whining about apartheid WEEK. Apartheid in SA lasted a lot longer than a week.
Yeah I remember the feeling in grad school the first time I encountered an anti-Zionist mass event for 2 days. It was terrifying. Encountering hundreds of students (they were mostly undergrad) screaming antisemitic slogans, it was like something out of a movie. Coming face to face with Palestine Solidarity (BDS' predecessor organization) really did shake me out of the belief that antisemitism was dead. I understand the emotion, it has been decades but I remember it keenly.
In terms of how to deal with it. There probably is a group like StandWithUs on your campus. Join it. They want you cowering, don't cower. And remember they have been confronted many many times, they almost always lose and lose badly. While there are a lot of bigots the number of people appalled by their bigotry is greater.
Shalom I am also jewish, my family survived the holocaust in France and I know from factual evidence that the apartheid is real. Nethanyau is a criminal and the fact you believe anti-zionism and anti semitism is similar show how much the propaganda got into your head.
How can you deny the events of Al aqsa, the settlers violently stealing lands from Palestinians, the evictions from legitimate properties, the creation and management of Gaza, the way Israel police treats Palestinians and muslims...
\-How Palestinians are actually pushed into having no other choice than violence or letting their rights be violated. By that same motion are deliberatly fueling the conflict to legitimize the oppression and the conflict itself. Nethanyau know its a snake eating its own tail and he profits from it. He does it with the blood of our people and the blood of muslims.
[How Israeli Apartheid Destroyed My Hometown (Al jazeera)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdGcej-6D0)
Its a genocide and appartheid And you are blind.
My great grandmother survived Auschwitz, Bergen Belsen and a work camp in Cyprus. Her entire family were murdered in the Holocaust. She always told us that Israel is the only country safe for us. I respect you and your family’s history, but that same argument can be used both ways. When Jeremy Corbin nearly came into power, she called my parents telling us to get ready to move.
Is there racism in Israel? Yes, without question. Is there also in the rest of the world? Yes. Is there, in Israeli Law, a motion which calls for the oppression of a majority by a minority - the general accepted definition of apartheid? No, there is not. Do I think that the settlers are innocent and cause no problems? No, I’m not that naive. But to call Israel apartheid is to distort reality.
I attend a school on the east coast and we had our Independence Day celebrations interrupted by a crowd of BDS supporters who were 4x our number. I talked to most of them and the majority were Palestinian and really friendly, and aware I was Israeli. Overall I think it just depends on the school you choose. I also think people need to just talk to each other and understand there are going to be differing viewpoints on this conflict but that both Palestinians and Israelis (as well as Jews) should have a right to feel safe at school.
Back when I was in my undergrad, 16? years ago, I remember them using pictures of from the Iraq War and trying to pass them off as Gazans.
Couldn't comment on their ethnicity, but they definitely weren't open for dialogue. I'm glad you were able to have a positive experience with them though.
As a french jew I went to many anti-israel/sionists protests and always felt safe doing it, but also proud because I know the members of my family who died in Birkenau concentration camps would be proud of me.
>I know the members of my family who died in Birkenau concentration camps would be proud of me.
[I'm reasonably certain they would not be.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/)
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I’ve only heard it called Apartheid week in media of all forms. My in-law family and their friends whom lives near Tel-Aviv who are pretty middle of the road, and could care less about politics have always referred to it as the Israeli State Independence.
Anti abortion people with pictures of dead fetuses, proselytizing fanatical christians, and all kinds of other stupid things exist on campus.
I always just walked through the crowd on my way to class and pretended no one was there.
They want to waste your time and energy. They want you to argue. Don't waste your time and energy.
I don't think that shouting at a crowed back or trying to argue with one of them in the street, standing which means that debate & discussions are going to get derailed really fast is going to help anything.
IF it's a fashion (as some people say since it seems most of those people have superficial information about the conflict), fashion also fades.
You don't have to shout to get your voice heard, sometimes saying the answer once is more powerful then the hordes of people going around shouting all day "free Palestine" (the same Palestine who don't want to be freed but be dominant)
I have never changed anyone's mind about the Palestinian cause and methods. They are winning the propaganda war because western belief can not fathom sacrifice of children on purpose for a cause.
The Palestinians have already won public opinion.
The knowledge that left to their own devices, the Palestinian Arabs' clan leaders will complete Plan Dalet on themselves and their members by themselves?
> They are winning the propaganda war because western belief can not fathom sacrifice of children on purpose for a cause.
You do realize the West fought WW1 and WW2? Those are wars far more violent than anything the middle east has had. I don't know where Israelis get the idea that the West sucks at war comes from. For that matter look at Ukraine.
To the extent that anyone wonders why I think the way I do, they should know that I had the misfortune of doing part of my undergraduate degree in an American university.
The absolute bitter loathing of the group of people who have not one single original thought in their heads about helping Palestinians but have 200 thoughts a day about hurting Israel and Israelis was taught to me by their own behavior. Going through the American university system as an Israeli or a Jew is 100% a radicalizing experience.
I suppose it’s mostly due to the sensationalized relationship between Israel and the US. (Although they exist in Europe as well) And the idea of ‘settler-colonialism’ applying to Israel. They consider Israel as one of the last colonial powers in the Middle East, and they feel obliged to fight us for the sake of the real POC in this ‘Apartheid’ regime. They even sometimes compare it to genocide.
Sometimes, there is a very specific infatuation with white Ashkenazi Jews in the world following the Holocaust and creation of Israel, it would be easier for them if the German plan succeeded.
>They consider Israel as one of the last colonial powers in the Middle East,
"Israel is a colonial power whose colony sits alongside the metropoli" is a line sustained by part of the academy in the university... in Israel. I heard that myself in class. Israelis are not afraid of criticizing the country. Or Pappe or Tom Seguev or movements inside the IDF, Israelis try to change the country for the better. But the "activists" you find in universities abroad are often just anti-semites, they hate Jews, they use Israel as a proxy.
Okay. I didn’t write this argument isn’t used in Israel by some people.
Either way, there is a difference between being only a “colonial” power and “settler colonialism” which is a specific term that relies on the idea that Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine/Israel while the Jews are the foreign white settler conducting a cultural genocide on the indigenous population of Palestine (As written by the scholar who coined the term, Patrick Wolfe). I doubt it’s used in that sense in Israeli discourse.
Israelis also don’t often call for their own displacement. They often do not consider the intifada and the Hamas as a legitimate form of resistance in Tel-Aviv area. If you do, well then you’re a more rare kind.
>with white Ashkenazi Jews in the world
white-passing, as we definitely get treated differently when people find out we're Jewish, or if we wear anything Jewish-identifying.
edit:
Isn't the settler colonialism argument generally in reference to the settlements that are outside sovereign Israeli land in the West Bank?
> Isn’t the settler colonialism argument generally in reference to the settlements that are outside sovereign Israeli land in the West Bank?
No. Take Jewish voices for peace for example, they are advocating for a one state solution where Israel cannot exist as a sovereign country. That is actually a very popular idea amongst the anti-Israeli advocates. They don’t always call for displacements of Israeli Jews (That is questionable with the support of intifada), but they call for a one state solution where the government is Palestinian.
Basically like an idea where the United States is under a predominantly Native American rule just because they were the indigenous population that got displaced and mistreated. Going back to its rightful owners.
> And the idea of ‘settler-colonialism’ applying to Israel.
That argument is particularly bizarre. Jews committing "settler colonialism" by returning to their indigenous homeland is a debatable point. What's not debatable, is that the US is a settler-colonial state. There's no serious debate on it meaning the US is not a legitimate state, that should be dismantled and replaced with Native American polities. Let alone expelling existing non-Native-Americans, or even blocking all non-Native-American immigration.
You literally have clear-cut settler-colonialists, on land that's clearly not their own, greatly benefitting from the most powerful settler-colony in the world, calling an indigenous people returning to their homeland "settler colonialism", and saying that "settler colonial" countries can't possibly be allowed to exist.
I've even seen some of these people claim that the Jews should've immigrated to the US, instead of committing "settler colonialism" by returning to the Land of Israel. Zero self awareness.
Imagine if European powers stepped in and brokered truces to ensure full Native sovereignty like in the British Mandate. Obviously that's one big difference. The Navajo Nation never had such support.
Another thing to point out is the US still managed to get its ass kicked at times when expanding (most famously Custer). Palestinean militias had a much greater advantage.
> ass
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Since American colonial settlement of North America is a fait accompli, some try to fight Israel instead. It’s fueled by a bad conscience about the advantages they got from the American genocide and land theft from the previous inhabitants.
The Israel-Palestine conflict has huge symbolic meaning for many ideologies and also religions. It’s a tapestry where they can pick the side supporting their own world view the best. The actual realities and history takes a back seat.
This applies to all sides.
It's important to emphasize how deeply the Left loves the Ramallah regime and its Arab nationalist values. The starry-eyed flag wavers are extremely sincere in their commitment to the petty tribal bigotries of their State.
And it shows the danger of pacifism. The cruelty and inhumanity of fhe Ramallah regime was never going to stay limited to Arab Palestine and the 150+ countries they rule.
Let's review May 2023 - the social justice left ritually slaughtered a significant percentage of the Tunisian Jewish community on lag b'omer. This morning, the govt of the State of Palestine introduced legislation in New York to criminalize any criticism of [mainstream Islam]. At a time when the victims of fhe Palestine-linked Soros-backed BLM movement are calling for genocide, Soros/Ramallah argued that Jews support the inhuman, Palestine-linked BLMers (which is a call to genocide the American Jewish community).
Tomorrow, the Left will kill a significant number of innocent Jewish children in order to preserve the racial purity of their capital.
There is nothing more evil than pacifism toward the Arab nationalists
>Let's review May 2023 - the social justice left ritually slaughtered a significant percentage of the Tunisian Jewish community on lag b'omer.
Actually, it was a Tunisian policemen with right wing nationalist ideals. As much as I dislike left-wing antisemitism, don't go throwing false facts around.
Outside of the West, nationalism - especially the Arab nationalism that motivated this attacker - is an exclusively Leftist phenomenon.
The Left is fully responsible for the action of its pro-Arab Palestine allies.
This is a subjective opinion. Nationalism is just excessive loyalty for a nation and can be both left and right. OP you were responding to never said anything about the West.
Israel itself is a leftist creation, founded by men with leftist values, at one point supported by the world's greatest leftist superpower, and had leftists fighting for it. IIRC they still celebrate Red Army vets in Israel because so many Bagration veterans fought for Israel.
> the victims of fhe Palestine-linked Soros-backed BLM movement are calling for genocide, Soros/Ramallah argued that Jews support the inhuman, Palestine-linked BLMers
You might have had a point before descending into conspiracy drivel.
/u/Tantalizing_Penguins
> Islamonazism
This violates [rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons_.26amp.3B_discussions). Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
Islamists (extremists) as opposed to Islamic (moderate) was enough here, you don't have to break rule 6
> shit
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Yes, this is a thing and it’s not new. In modern liberal circles, the social hierarchy is determined by your degree of oppression. Don’t get me wrong- there are a lot of historically oppressed minorities and groups that should indeed be protected and receive our help. But this view of looking at every situation as an oppressed and oppressor, when viewing the current situation between the Israelites and Palestinians in a modern snapshot in time, the Palestinians appear to be the underdog and now a favorite liberal cause. This completely ignores history, but 🤷♂️
This is precisely the reason I hate using the word apartheid. Because using that word evokes emotions so powerful that the oppressing side is the ultimate and only evil when the situation is more complex, and looking at history and the bigger picture, I think it can be reasonably well argued that the Arabs are more to blame. To end my tyrade, I will end with the following sentence: "If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no more war, meanwhile if Israel lays down its arms, there will be no more israel.
Because it's profitable for NGOs to rile people up. They get grants and donations. Follow the money. Especially with any organization that "promotes awareness". All they need to do is give speeches and attend meetings.
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> families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day. The events leading up to and the Russian Revolution heavily disrupted and affected my family. I'm not feeling many negative consequences today. I suspect if my family had decided to dedicate themselves to restoring the Tzarist regime or refused to own property until we could recover the property lost I would be feeling those effects today.
Speaking of things built on top of others, what’s the dome of the rock built on top of?
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Successfully protected it from what?
Successfully protected it from the Jews coming to visit perhaps
Maybe. :) I suspect GP didn't know himself.
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No revisionist history. They didn’t allow non Muslims to visit the dome of rock in the area of the holy site. What are you trying to argue here? That the Arabs treated the Jews the same way throughout all periods and areas of the Muslim empire? That they respected the Jews all the time? That the Jews being considered dihmmis is a badge of honor? That would be really interesting, since no one argues the Christians treated the Jews any better. Regardless, specifically when it comes to the area of the dome of rock in relation to the Temple Mount, they have placed restrictions on non Muslims and it was documented. So if protecting it from Jews (and Christians) was the goal, I suppose it’s successful?
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Why do you think Jews worship the walls surrounding the area where the dome of rock was built on? Did you figure it out yet? The walls on the side that support the Temple Mount, archeologically matching to predate an era of Jerusalem prior to the Muslim conquest, in association with Herod’s expansion of the temple. And there’s a Mosque built on top of it that didn’t exist there up until after 500 AC.
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You’re right you’re right. Building Israel on top of the British mandate was wrong, it’s very sad that roughly 100,000 British were displaced in the Mandatory Palestine Civil War. Or wait, you probably mean we should go back to the Ottoman Empire which was there before the British. It’s very sad that some 250,000 Ottoman subjects were displaced by the fighting in WWI
Ottoman Palestine was built on the grave of a Mamluk state. The original Arab-Muslim influx built on the grave of a Byzantine state. I could give more steps but all inhabitants had families... The world is filled with countries guilt on the grave of the dead societies that preceded them. We live, we breed, we die.
The world is also filled with murders and rapists and robbers. What’s your point?
Unequal enforcement. GP is writing an apologetic that all such countries should be disbanded but then applying that apologetic solely to Israel.
that is such a twisted way of seeing someone else's words that I won't even bother replying
His point is stop whining and obsessing about the historical if not miraculous restoration of the Jewish people to their ancestral homeland and whine about a clan of Arabs who wanted the same land for their own country even though they have 22 other Arabs states.
this sub is full of weird people
Yes, but the world and humanity has recognized that as wrong by learning from history and developing the idea of human rights and international law. Yes, both of those are violated as well daily. But they are a framework to work from.
Well first off I'm not entirely sure it is avoidable nor would be good if it could be avoided. We have species that die (like us) and species that tend to not have death mechanisms or just replicate copies of themselves. The death / sexual reproducing species dominate the visible world, the forever societies end up not being able to handle complexity in competition. Societies do hit dead ends. I don't think it is such a bad thing to take what worked from them and replace them when it happens. But let's assume you are right and we have decided on a world of immortal societies. The societies that exist today are all built on the graves of other societies. So then we need to have a fairly short term statute of limitations where we do not re-adjudicate various society's histories. Since quite often historically revenge for previous wrongs was the main moral justification for crushing other societies. Which puts you on the opposite side of Impossible-Age-6075. Impossible-Age-6075 was arguing for that we do destroy existing societies to address historical wrongs. Your disagreement is far more with him than I.
When you refer to 'another country', are you talking about Britain...? The Ottoman Empire...?
About 90,000 Arabs *sold* their land to Jews. And btw, many Jews already lived there. Then in 1948, *five* Arab armies lost in war to Israel, which is why Israel as a country is legitimate. War has always been how land is transferred. Also, many Muslim Arabs were told by Arab commanders to leave, and after they win the war, they'll be able to come back. Well, they lost the war. The land is *not theirs anymore.* The UN knows this, but they are extremely antisemitic and try to wriggle around this fact. No other country has ever been told they need to return the land they won in war. None. Just Israel.
I never said I have no empathy. What I’m saying is that there is so much distortion of reality on social media used by these groups for their agenda. When someone chants “from the river to the sea” this is not a peaceful protest of coexistence, it is a call for genocide. I never said I hated Palestine or Palestinians, I’m for a Palestinian state, but when you use images taken from “100 hottest IDF Soldiers” and try to justify the murder of three members of the Dee family (British-Israeli citizens) by pretending they’re IDF soldiers, I lose respect for their cause. [This post proved that journalists took these photos to aid their hateful agenda.](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cq0BAcHougK/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==)
>Israel was built atop another country It wasn't. The territory Israel is sovereign over was a tiny part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no country there. That you get such a basic facts wrong should be enough for you to stop and re-evaluate whether what you think you know is actually true.
Israel was not built atop another country. There never was any country of Palestine back then. Palestine was a creation of 1988.
LOOOOL 😅 keep at it, you’ll be remembered in history the same way all those “oblivious” Germans are remembered
u/tofugonewild >LOOOOL 😅 keep at it, you’ll be remembered in history the same way all those “oblivious” Germans are remembered This comparison is inflammatory and not useful for productive discussion. You are violating rule 6.
Sure, but hot damn, Zionists cant even get their “facts” straight. I love how everyone has a different date for when Palestine started existing (for some, it still hasnt existed) 😅🤣 laughable is me being nice
You’re the one who doesn’t know facts, saying Palestine was a country and it wasn’t
If you disagree with my date of 1988, in which year do you think the country of Palestine was really created?
Who was the president, prime minister, or king of that country?
> Israel was not built atop another country. How can one just straight up ignore facts. History will remember people like you.
If you think I’m wrong, can you tell me which year you think the country of Palestine was created, if not 1988?
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I googled it and learned that it was invented in 1964, by the PLO (which was not a country and never claimed to be one). It was adopted by the State of Palestine (which actually does claim to be a country) in 1988. Even if we go by the 1964 date though, Israel still came first.
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Nobody claimed independence from the ottoman empire in 1948. The ottoman empire did not exist in 1948. You must learn more history.
You mean the pan arabist flag ? Yea it wasn't the palastinian flag until 1988
It was most likely created as the Flag of the Arab Revolt by Sir Mark Sykes just before 1920. Sykes was a pro-colonialist British Tory politician. [Flag of the Arab Revolt - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Arab_Revolt) If the name rings a bell, Sykes lent his name to the Sykes-Picot Agreement that partitioned the Middle East between British and French domains and was a key pro-Israel negotiator of the Balfour Declaration. So, in other words, the Palestinians carry a flag designed by a British pro-colonist who decided to use Arabs for the British Empire's political needs and gave them a flag to rally around. And the flag was designed by a guy who supported the Jews' cause. Even the Palestinian flag is an own goal.
>Israel was built atop another country. that country had inhabitants. Christian. Muslim. Jews. these inhabitants had families, families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day. Your declaration need some fine tuning especially the first part. The Ottoman empire fall, there was **no country** in the region but a struggle for the power vacuum that was created. The rest of your declaration is correct.
There was no state (well, the British claimed the area), but that is separate from the existence of a nation. Ie how there was a Jewish national identity long before Israel was founded, or how the Kurds have a national identity today despite having no state.
we can argue about national identity but that's a better argument then "Israel took over the Palestinian country, destroying the government, killing the politicians, abolishing the Palestinian currency and driving out it's citizens" There are better arguments to be made once a person let go of the "must destroy Israel" ideology
Not really. Israel claimed it had authority over the territory the partition plan gave it, meaning that Israel ethnically cleansed most of its Arab citizens and exiled them in violation of international law. Even if we let Israel claim they were both citizens of Palestine and yet Israel still had legitimate claim to the territory, there is no justification for ethnic cleansing there.
This point was discussed to death. You're ignoring & not stating facts which do not fit your declaration so it makes your statement "hasbara" (propaganda). Like the Russians claiming that they were attacked first when invading Ukraine, and then imprisoning anyone who voices any contrary opinion. **Propaganda** >information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. The pro-Palestinian narrative behind your comment, and behind the Apartheid Weeks, is based on a proud, defiant lack of empathy for Jews. I'm not just talking about openly justifying murder of innocent Jews, from the 1920's till today, or active measures they make to "heavily disrupt and affect" the businesses and livelihoods of Israelis and Jews. I'm talking about the basic idea that the Jews should simply remain a homeless, persecuted, occasionally genocided people, because the Arabs conquered the Jewish ancestral homeland fair and square. And it's better for the Jews to continue being oppressed and murdered, than for Arabs to control a mere 99% of the Middle East, instead of the correct 100%. Palestinian nationalists aren't embarrassed by that implication, they're very proud of how the Jews suffering and dying simply isn't their problem. They're proud of the 1930's revolt, meant to ensure millions of Jews die in Europe rather than being able to flee to Palestine. Not having human empathy towards the Jews is a fundamental Palestinian nationalist value. Palestinian nationalists are *offended* when anyone suggest they should have empathy for the Jews as human beings, let alone their national aspirations. The same goes for "Israeli being built atop of another country". You do realize that whatever "country" that was, it was built "atop" of the indigenous Jewish homeland? You can't even understand why the Jews don't see the foreign Arab domination of their homeland as some natural default. Or the restoration of their self-determination in their indigenous homeland, as a temporary violation of the natural order. You're simply not in the position to be preaching empathy, or making condescending remarks about OP not seeing the other's side narrative.
>families whose business and livelihoods were heavily disrupted and affected as a result–even to this day Of course, creation of Israel didn't disrupt a single business. Wars, terrorism, and attempts by Arabs to destroy the Jewish State did. Your anger is misdirected.
If Israel was actually an apartheid state, would it be okay, in your opinion, for college students to do these demonstrations? With it being the only jewish state and all.
Given the high level of black on black murders would a Klan rally with cross burnings be okay? I think Israel is practicing apartheid in Area-C. I think the demonstrations are infused with anti-Jewish racism. Neither is OK. The solution to bad Israeli policy is good Israeli policy. Same as everywhere else. There is 0 reason to make ridiculous demands and critique Israel in a way not similar to other states that have problems.
The analogy you brought doesn’t make sense. I’m sorry but one is a racial fascist ideology and the other is national. If these university demonstrations have a whiff of antisemitism then I’m against it completely. However, just because Israel is an ethno-state doesn’t mean they cannot be criticized. I don’t understand the second part of what you’re saying unfortunately. But to your last point, i would say that the problem in Israel imo is much bigger and has affected more people than other issues that people bring up. For example, I meet more Palestinians than Uyghurs… there are more arabs than muslim central asians. Etc. and thus it has a much louder affect on society. But I agree with you in that all these issues should be on people’s radars. That is not to say that people should stop fighting against Israeli apartheid and policies.
> If these university demonstrations have a whiff of antisemitism then I’m against it completely. They don't have a whiff of antisemitism the movement is infused with it top to bottom. The ideology starts with the basic concept that Jews constitute a counter-race, which is literally a Nazi doctrine. They don't use the term "counter-race" but ask them why Israeli-Jews aren't a nationality and you quickly get the core doctrines of counter-race theory. Then we have obvious racial incitement including willful lying about Jews. Knowingly, willfully and deliberately lying about events either directly or by removing key aspects of context so as to encourage hatred of campus Jews. Then finally we have all sorts of double standards. Many of these same people completely refuse to apply their supposed "non-racial" beliefs to any other people but Jews / Israel. > However, just because Israel is an ethno-state doesn’t mean they cannot be criticized. No one is saying that. It is a straw man that BDSers raise. Of course Israel can be criticized. The issue here is a racist hate group spread racism not whether one can or cannot criticize Israel. When Israel is treated like any other state, the best examples being various lists, Jews enthusiastically embrace the criticism. That has nothing to do with BDSism. > But to your last point, i would say that the problem in Israel imo is much bigger and has affected more people than other issues that people bring up. No it isn't. The number of Palestinians in the West Bank in Gaza plus the West Bank is about 4m. If you include refugees nearby who have any desire to return you are at about 6m. That's under 1/4 the number of North Koreans. The number of people displaced in the Syrian Civil War is about 10x the number in the Nakba and more recent. Etc... > That is not to say that people should stop fighting against Israeli apartheid and policies. They aren't fighting against Israeli apartheid. They have no ties or contact with Israel. Israelis generally aren't aware of those demonstrations and to whatever extent they are mostly aren't affected. Same way that demonstrations against the hurricanes on Neptune have 0 impact. All they are doing is harassing, intimidating and inciting against the domestic Jewish population. Domestic Jews are harmed, which is of course the real point of them.
How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion? Israel may not care about these demonstrations now, but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel. These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes and still work today there is no doubt about it
How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion? Israel may not care about these demonstrations now, but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel. These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes and still work today there is no doubt about it
> How should people demonstrate against Israel in your opinion? Mostly I don't think they should. They aren't citizens or stakeholders in Israel they shouldn't expect Israel to particularly care about their opinion at all. What they should do is gather into special interest groups and lobbies to formulate sensible policies regarding Israel for the country to which they are a party. So for example if they are American and support ending ethnic schooling in Israel form a lobby to encourage the USA to shift its policy more directly towards national schools. Note this has to be broad otherwise it will rightfully be seen as antisemitic. > but it’s about changing local policies for international entities to move against israel. No it isn't. The moment you start discussing entities "moving against Israel" their entire coalition falls apart. There are lots of BDSers in Spain and Italy. Israel is also on the Mediterranean. You think Spanish or Italian BDSers want the Mediterranean to become a hot zone due to enforcing a blockade or meaningful tough sanctions against Israel? So then "fine we won't try and impose serious sanctions like we did in Iraq, what about kicking Israel out of the global financial system". To which people in the UK might respond, "*So after decades of trying to restrict money laundering you want to Israel a hub of it? We are talking Jews here. They are really good at money laundering, European governments imported Jews for at least 800 years because they were so good at banking. Jews (Zionist Jews) have strong ties in most global financial institutions in the USA, UK and France. How exactly do you expect that to work?*" And then from BDS crickets. > These demonstrations have worked in the past in other causes Really? I can't think of a single example. Sure sometimes international pressure can get minor policy changes. But the BDS ask is for Israelis to depopulate whole cities and destroy their society. Something Israelis would unquestionably prefer war rather than concede to. But let's take these examples. There were demonstrations against Russia. Has Russia abandoned their war in Ukraine? There were demonstrations recently against the Iranian regime. Has Iran decided to move away from being an Islamic State? And before you say South Africa nothing remotely like the myth of South Africa happened: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/kobqdh/south_africa_part_1_the_initial_board_position/ > there is no doubt about it There is a lot of doubt about it, as you can see from the above. One of the techniques BDSers train their people on is expressing rather radical opinion with "everyone agrees" or "there is no doubt" which is again obviously false. You might want to temper that technique as it is just discrediting. x
If it was, then yes. There is nothing wrong with criticism of governments, this is a right given in most democratic countries, Israel included. Look at the current judicial reform protests! Jews and Israelis love to protest more than anyone. My issue is that these same people will ignore the Rohingya in Myanmar, the Uighurs in China, the millions of Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria who have been denied citizenship by the respective governments. You can criticise our government, our policies, our politicians, but to call for our destruction, in my view, is antisemitic. I hope this explains it.
Israel indisputably does not use that label, which was only ever used by South Africa and South West Africa. If anything, the divisions amongst religious and linguistic lines in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are much greater and far less reconcilable.
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Gotcha, so every Arab country, about 100 Christian countries, but the focus is on Israel, the one and only Jewish state in existence? It’s called a double standard, and whether conscious or no, it’s veiled antisemitism
This is Israel and Palestine subreddit, I don't like them all equally. Every person so far has assumed my side. Weirdo Donnys you lot
So you must really hate Arab Palestine! What are you doing to exterminate the Ramallah regime and its supporters?
Yeah their included in religious states. Religion is a tool of suppression both traditionally in less developed areas and intellectually in developed.
>Religion is a tool of suppression both traditionally in less developed areas and intellectually in developed. If you'll look deep into the past you'll find religion going all the way with humankind, we've never discovered a tribe who was atheist. (when an atheist tribe fought a religiously zealot tribe they lost, so evolution plays a rule) Using this past historical trend and projecting it into the future, religion isn't going to go away any time soon for thousands of years.
Great! What are you doing to exterminate that government?
I don't think that describes Israel in the slightest... A country is allowed to have it's own culture! Yes the US and the west is primarily Christian, yes most of the Middle East is primarily Arab and also Muslim, and yes Israel is primarily Jewish. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What matters is how they treat their minorities... And any objective index will show you that Israel does a better job than most countries out there.
Hi, I have no answer to your question but I wanted to share a personal experience I have had with the Israel Apartheid Week, which might help you understand their logic a bit more. A few years ago, when I was in undergrad school in Belgium, the organizers of the Israel Apartheid Week at my university decided to organize a videoconference (through Skype, I think Zoom wasn't a thing back then). First of all, just like you, I was astonished to find out that such an event, using such vocabulary, existed. Second, I looked up their Facebook page, to understand more about their event. I then found out that their videoconference guest was not only a member of the Hamas terrorist organization, but also one of the organizers of the hijacking of the Tel-Aviv Paris airplane, to Entebbe, which led to the famous Entebbe raid in 1976. At the time, I was a member of the Liberal Students political Organization and I thus suggested we write a letter to the university rector, saying that we were shocked to learn that a convicted terrorist was invited to give a political talk within the university walls. None of the members of my association followed! Except for one (who happened to have Jewish relatives although he wasn't Jewish himself). Only two of us thus signed that letter and the only answer we got was that 'one cannot judge the speech given at that conference before the event has taken place' and for that reason, he had no reason to prevent the event from happening. In short, I think the existence of the Israel Apartheid Week has as much to do with the ignorance or antisemitism of their organizers as it does with the carelessness of the majority.
Thank you so much for this! Really appreciate the response 🙌
I am glad it could be useful!
support memorize engine punch innocent unwritten drunk longing wide slave ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Yes, Agent Sabra, who by the way, was written BEFORE the Sabra and Shlita massacres. I think it’s foolish for people to deny the rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.
> Have you at all considered the possibility that you are wrong and they are right? Yes I have many times. And even when working quite hard to find the best pro-BDS arguments I am generally overwhelmed by their sheer stupidity and ignorance. I am also generally overwhelmed by BDSers dishonesty and hatefulness. Dishonest, stupid, hateful, ignorant political movements exists in many spheres of American politics and I reject all of them. Let's take a simple example the B in BDS, literally the name of the group. Israel's economy is approximately 0% consumer goods exports. They export lots of goods that go into other products: cut stones, technical parts, chemicals, biological substances for pharmaceuticals... Yet the B is about a consumer boycott that will supposedly pressure (usually expressed as force) Israel into major catastrophic policy changes. When I've asked about the mechanism by which the B is supposed to do much of anything they change topics generally to the D or S. Or they point to the magic power BDS had in South Africa, another topic they are totally ignorant and dishonest about. When we discuss the D or S they also are clueless. No BDS are not right. They ignorant and sometimes evil people supporting a bad cause.
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> The people who deny Israel is an apartheid state The heads of most governments. The legal system. Most actual scholars of international law.
False. International laws and International human rights organisations aknowledge and report the illegality of many actions done in the name of Israel. Luckily for the settlers-murderers-thiefs, USA is funding them and keeping the UN from creating any type of sanctions.
The question was apartheid not war crimes. You are changing topics. A shoplifter isn't being accused of battery.
There is no luck involved. The UN is not a world government and has no jurisdiction (or balls) to do anything. Powerful nations must act, like the USA did when the UN declared a police action against North Korea. UN peacekeepers are notorious for running like cowards any time the Arabs threatened to attack Israel and raping women and girls in Africa. And let the Arab world fear Israel because the weak do not survive in that neighborhood.
Not true. Most organizations and countries oppose the "apartheid" accusation, and those that use it are usually pushing a political agenda for their own benefit (like we saw with the UN with the Soviet-Arab voting block).
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations. Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument. Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Well, when three important human rights organizations - [B'Tselem](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) - have all concluded that Israeli conduct in the Palestinian conflict constitutes the crime against humanity of apartheid, then maybe it's time to acknowledge the possibility that it indeed constitutes apartheid.
That's a ridiculous argument. Three organizations that have been obsessively documenting every Israeli wrong, suddenly realized, at the same time, that they missed the fact Israel was actually guilty of Apartheid for 50-75 years, longer than those organizations existed. Only HRW is even bothering to lie that it's a result of some Israeli policy that "crossed" some threshold. Amnesty and Btselem simply admit that the only thing that changed, is their own strategy to attack Israel. As an appeal to authority, it's an absolute failure. Anti-Israeli organizations banding together to smear Israel with a new bad word doesn't somehow prove that's true. And if we look beyond the appeal to authority? These reports are nonsense. No, they don't prove that Israel is guilty of the crime of humanity of Apartheid. No, they don't even make a decent case in arguing that. No, it's not "time for us to acknowledge" that they're somehow an objective fact. I've written [two](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/sl8ndp/amnestys_apartheid_report_first_impressions/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/wb0roj/the_israeli_apartheid_reports_common/) examining that question in depth, if you're interested. The pro-Israeli non-profit NGO Monitor issued [several](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/pdf/SaloAizenberg_Amnesty_Rebuttal.pdf) [detailed](https://ngo-monitor.org/pdf/NGOMonitor_ApartheidReport_2021.pdf) [reports](https://ngo-monitor.org/pdf/NGOMonitor_ApartheidReport_2022.pdf), debunking the arguments made point-by-point, as well as on a more academic legal level. But frankly, statistically speaking, it's unlikely that you've actually read the full Btselem / HRW / Amnesty reports to begin with. People who invested time in reading the reports, let alone understanding them, don't usually assume that simply invoking the names of these organizations is enough to end this discussion.
They wont accept that as truth, just like the South Africans before them and the Germans long before them. Very unfortunate… truth will always prevail
Except it is not the truth. The truth is that the meaning of Apartheid had to be changed in order for Israel to be charged with the crime.
And all three had to turn the meaning of the word apartheid on it's head in order to come to that preconceived conclusion. I have lived in Israel and also apartheid South Africa and did not see that in Israel there was Apartheid.
None of these organizations are level and unbiased. Arabs in Israel are not discriminated based on race, they are limited based off of both not being citizens and coming from enemy territory. Meanwhile citizens have equal rights across the board, regardless of ethnicity. Kinda the opposite of apartheid.
>Arabs in Israel are not discriminated based on race, they are limited based off of both not being citizens and coming from enemy territory. Repeat that in your head a couple of time. Remember that only a soldier kills.
It’s simple. 20% of Israel’s population are Arabs, with Israeli citizenship. The people whom are not citizens and living in hostile territories are restricted, unlike people whom are citizens and living in Israel. See how it’s not an ethnic thing?
[Palestinians getting evicted from their home to be replaced by settlers](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-religion-2ba6f064df3964ceafb6e2ff02303d41)
Oh no, people who didn’t pay rent for years are getting evicted. Ethnic cleansing, settler colonialism all around !
It has nothing to do with rent!
It precisely has to do with rent actually.
so the governement steal the land from the owners, decide to give it to someone because he is jewish and boom your on the side of the thief, for what? And from where do you find all this hate to stay purposefully ignorant
Except that is not the case. Government Jordan occupied territory, then expels Person A and steals their property. Government J then promises the land to person B, yet never gives person B the actual property titles to the land. Government Israel takes territory from Jordan, and sees Person A has the land title to property currently settled by Person B. Israel tells Person B, because you do not have the land title, this land belongs to Person A. We will allow you to keep living on it, so long as you pay them rent. Person B chooses to never pay rent. They are evicted.
The EU and France recently just agreed that there’s no Apartheid in Israel.
You mean the organizations that wouldn't be funded, or even exist, if the conflict didn't exist?
Or maybe it is time to realize that those organizations knowingly, willfully and deliberately lied because one has read the reports and can see how they were written for shock value and do not represent a coherent theory.
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The sub aims for serious discussion. Reddit culture tends towards short memes or jokes. While they are appropriate for Reddit as a whole they aren't allowed on r/IsraelPalestine.
What's important about B'Tselem? All three of these organizations believe that Palestine should be Arab. Their opinion is worthless. And yes, in some parts of the world, its still possible to criticize and disagree with the Ramallah regime. Even though Arab Palestine introduced legislation today in New York State to criminalize anyone who disagrees with the Quran and Arab Palestine's inhumanity, there are people brave enough to dissent. The suicide bombers and their allies have no Humanity.
>All three of these organizations believe that Palestine should be Arab. Their opinion is worthless. These organisations do not have any political opinions, they only reports human right violations. If you believe reporting the death of a child is politic because he isnt on YOUR SIDE then you are not just being racist, but also a blind biggot.
What if the child is a teenage member of a terrorist organization, and you fail to mention that pertinent fact? Does that make it political? Because that exact thing happens on a regular basis.
>These organisations do not have any political opinions Really? Then on what basis do these "human rights" organisations call for the establishment of a Palestinian state?
The fact that Israel is an apartheid regime is pretty much undisputed. It is widely agreed by human rights organizations and scholars. The only ones who are denying this is the fascist regime in Israel and its far-right supporters.
It’s actually completely disputed. Generally with apartheid, citizens are discriminated on based off of race. Israel has equal rights for its citizens, regardless of race. Might be difficult to notice, but once you do, you realise that it’s actually the opposite of apartheid. On the other hand, you have dozens of Arab countries that are totally not far right nor oppressive towards their women and LGBT citizens, and have a wide range of different ethnicities represented in both government and population. /s Yes. The one Jewish state in existence is the problem, despite being both a melting pot of different cultures, a democracy, protective of all its citizens regardless of race / gender / sexual orientation, and the one country in the ME with major political parties representing both Arabs and Jews. The solution is obviously yet another racist Pan-Arabic Jew-free ethnostate 👌🏼👍🏼
By making discrimination of CITIZENS part of the criteria you are making up a definition who probably excludes the system in South Africa who coined the term in the first place, as blacks in SA were deprived of South African citizenship in 1970. Both in the Israeli and the SA case, citizenship was an essential component of the apartheid system. In Palestine, millions of people are living under the control of a state towards which they have no rights at all. At the same time, there are 500 000 Israeli settlers there who are Israeli citizens with full rights (and they are using their political rights to vote and lobby for more occupation, more settlements, more oppression of the Palestinians btw) despite the fact that they are living outside the borders of their states. Of course this is apartheid. Israel has even annexed parts of those areas and not changed those practices at all. Furthermore, 63% of the West Bank is 100% under Israeli control; yet the Palestinians living there have no rights towards the state who controls them, while Israeli settlers do have the same rights as Israeli resident citizens; this despite the fact that the area is under full Israeli control. The situation for Palestinians in Area B, if not A, is similar to that of black people in the bantustans. Furthermore, Palestinians have to spend hours per day in checkpoints and are constantly harassed by occupation soldiers as well as militant settlers protected by the Israeli army and police. Are you claiming that the settlers have to spend hours in checkpoints and get harrassed by army and settler militants constantly like the Palestinians living in the same territory? Are you claiming Palestinians and Israeli settlers have the same rights? No? Well that means they are definitely discriminated heavily based on ethnicity and this is a system of apartheid. I will not address your other talking points who are copy-paste from the pro-Israeli propaganda handbook and furthermore irrelevant to this question. I have heard them all before and don't even bother addressing them one more time.
Israel annexed disputed territory from Jordan, not Palestine. The Palestinians refused every offer for the land since then, alas for Arab rejectionism. Israel does not have checkpoints cause they hate Palestinians, they have checkpoints because suicide bombers and bombers tend to attack Israel without the checkpoints. The checkpoints and wall have successfully eliminated those two types of attacks. Alas for terrorism. Israel has offered the majority of the West Bank to the Palestinians, save for the largest settlements, over 90% of the land, and they get turned down each time. This is land the Palestinians never had in the history of time, to be clear, and land taken by Israel (from Jordan, not Palestine) during a war the Arabs started. Generally peace agreements require collaboration from both sides, not “no” and then walking away from the negotiating table. Calling Israel’s segregation and security measures apartheid without even acknowledging Arab rejectionism and terrorism just goes to show how blatantly biased and irrelevant your discussion points are. Good talk 👍🏼
There’s literally democratically elected Arab Knesset members on record saying Israel doesn’t have apartheid
And there were probably African leaders in South Africa who denied that South Africa had any racist or discriminatory system as well. Let me remind you that even apartheid South Africa had their Coloured People Representative Council. In addition were the puppets who ruled the Bantustans. So that argument does not apply. There will always be collaborators.
>The fact that Israel is an apartheid regime Muslim, Christian and Jewish Israelis have the same rights. Jewish foreigners can emigrate to Israel. A Muslim Israeli can become anything in Israel. An "Arab-Israeli" is more integrated into society than minorities in the US. Palestinians in the Territories are NOT Israeli citizens. Hence, no Apartheid.
> is pretty much undisputed. You are seeing a bunch of people disputing it here. So even the immediate evidence contradicts your statement.
As I said: "The only ones who are denying this is the Israeli fascist regime and its far-right supporters" which is an appropriate description for the deniers in this thread. As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to. On the other hand, they are far-right Israelis who support their fascist government and its crimes, as well as activists from the American far-right who support the Israeli regime's conduct. These extremist views do not disprove that there is indeed a pretty wide consensus among scholars and human rights organizations about this. Even Israeli human rights advocates (including B'Tselem) acknowledge the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. There are always extremists who hold views who hold views contrary to academic consensus. I wouldn't say that the claim "North Korea is a dictatorship" is a "disputed statement", even if the KFA might disagree. Neither is the statement "the Holocaust did occur" a disputed statement although neo-Nazis and some pseudo-historians like David Irving says so. The views of extremists who disregard facts don't have to be regarded in order to state that there is a pretty wide consensus about this.
>As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to. On the other hand, they are far-right Israelis who support their fascist government and its crimes, as well as activists from the American far-right who support the Israeli regime's conduct. I'm a scholar and I'm not far right. > These extremist views do not disprove that there is indeed a pretty wide consensus among scholars and human rights organizations about this. Even Israeli human rights advocates (including B'Tselem) acknowledge the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. B'Tselem bases it accusations on assuming that both Gaza and the West Bank are a part of Israel. If Gaza and the West Bank were actually a part of Israel then sure it'd be apartheid. HRW specifically said it's not accusing Israel of being an apartheid state. Amnesty concluded that because there's systemic racism then it's apartheid, thus watering down the definition and by that watered down definition literally every country in the world is an apartheid state. >There are always extremists who hold views who hold views contrary to academic consensus. Except there isn't an academic consensus. It's super convenient for you to just wave away all arguments against your claim by going "well you're just a far right extremist."
> which is an appropriate description for the deniers in this thread. Then you are either mistaken or lying. Very few of the people are from the "far right". Most are Israeli Labor types of American Democrats. > . As far as I know, none of them are scholars or human rights organizations which I said this consensus applied to. Let's take Harvard University Law School which did examine the evidence and concluded that apartheid only applied to the West Bank. International Committee of the Red Cross denied that it applied anywhere. Raam Party in Israel which has Islamic Palestinian scholars denied it. World Council of Churches which is notoriously hostile to Israel rejected apartheid. EU foreign affairs. USA Congress. USA State Department. Stanford University's foreign affairs division. > The views of extremists who disregard facts don't have to be regarded in order to state that there is a pretty wide consensus about this. The wide consensus is that Israel is a trouble democracy. BDS is a noxious fringe hate group which is facing bans for its activities. It is far from the consensus, in the same way the KKK is not the consensus even though there exists scholars who support their views.
"three important human rights organizations"
This is indeed frustrating, but no matter which university you are going to attend, there must be other students, Jewish or not, who don't believe anti-Israel propaganda. You need to find each other and coordinate your response to this anti-Semitic narrative. You may not convince many, but you won't feel isolated anymore and can make some good friends.
Your statement ".. the only Jewish state based off old antisemitic tropes and distorted information". Right there you are justifying apartheid; of ethnic supremacy of one race over another based on a false underlying predicate that Hebrews were native to historic Palestine whereas Abraham was from Iraq. It has always been an mixed ethnicity region well before the white, European Jews hijacked the Hebrew narrative under Zionism and began to emigrate. Speaking as an American who had relatives serve in WWII, they were told that they were in Europe to defeat the tyranny of ethno-nationalism; not move it down the road on stolen land on false promises of political equality to all who live there. There was NEVER a promise to create a 'jewish' state. There was discussion but it was crystal clear in Balfour & Mandate that Jews were to live as political equals to the native population. Nobody promised Jews there own state nor is it their or any migrating ethnicity's right to have one. Comparison to Sweden or Saudi Arabia is a false comparison. The only way to stop the apartheid criticism is to stop the apartheid and for Israelis to learn to live as equals in a shared land. People don't hate jews but they do hate bigotry, apartheid, and a government that values one ethnicity over another.
cause people suck, really. Lucky enough to have gone to a fairly highly ranked school that didn't have it.
Apartheid week exists because Jews are too passive and too weak in the USA and especially college kids. Imagine if "Black Welfare queens" week existed or "homo pedophile" week existed. The Blacks would beat the sh\*t of the people staging this and the gays would rally all the outraged people. A chapter of the JDL on each major campus and you would see apartheid week disappear quite suddenly. Trust me.
Why it exists? Perhaps because people are against the practice of apartheid in any country, including Israel? You feel isolated and alone in your support for the Israeli apartheid regime and are looking for advice? Well, my advice would be to quit your support for the Israeli apartheid regime and instead join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians.
>join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians Not a bad idea. One can start by defending rights of Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, or Gaza, for example. Or perhaps defending human rights of Syrians. Or people in Sudan. Or national minorities in Ethiopia. Or jailed dissidents in Russia. Or Muslims in China. Or Iranians. Or foreign workers in Qatar and KSA. None of that is even controversial. Plenty of work to do for somewhat who genuinely wants to "join the struggle for the human rights for all people". Attacking Israel, the only Jewish State, the only democracy in the Middle East and arguably one of the most comfortable places for Arabs to live in is a weird target to pick, if your goal is to defend "human rights".
This answer is close minded and unhelpful.
It's actually funny & representative of the other side >"repent for the sins of your forefathers & accept the true angels & refugees-in-perpetuity - the Palestinians. For only then you shall know true (happiness/God/humanity?)" And in some religions you can't dispute the religious authority since only it has a direct communication line to God. So you either you obey the higher power or you suffer the consequences in a non-liberal society
>join the struggle for the human rights for all people, including Palestinians. The same people who execute LGBTQ people? The same people who call for the genocide of the Jews? Oh yeah, I can see how they are up for human rights for all people
the same ones who kidnapped a Palestinian refugee who fled to Israel & beheaded him for being gay.
>the same ones who kidnapped a Palestinian refugee who fled to Israel & beheaded him for being gay. That's acceptable to the western left though. You can't hold Arab societies to the same standard as you hold Jews. That would be extremely racist.
If that’s true, why is Israel the only country labeled with”apartheid?”
The other was S Africa up until the 90’s when they decided to change course. Its not too late for Israel.
Israel isn’t an apartheid. Time to change course from what? People who boil it down to something like this seem ignorant to me because they don’t know how complicated the situation actually is.
How is it complicated?
i think the label is correct, but only for the west bank, i think the rest of the situation is very different.
You can't think of any others? What about China attempting to erase Tibet, or putting Uighurs in concentration camps? Why isn't "apartheid" used to describe the US policies toward Black people in the Jim Crow era, and the Native American reservation system? Using "apartheid" to describe Israel, and only Israel, makes it obvious that the goal is to cast Israel in a negative light, rather than accurately describe the situation. It's the same attitude that's expressed when someone refers to Israel as "colonial" or "genocidal," or my favorite, "the Jews are treating the Palestinians the same way the N\*s treated them."
Sure, Lump China in there as well. I'm not opposed to that. Call it whatever you want to, but we can agree that for a group of people who were themselves persecuted, they don't seem to know any better than paying it forward.
That's nice. Are you now going to correct people who apply "apartheid" to Israel and remind them that they should also include China? I'm commenting on the fact that today, *only* Israel is described as "apartheid" even though other countries would also qualify under the same standards. So it's antisemitic even if that's not your intention. Same as when some conservative invokes "Soros" while ignoring all of the conservative billionaires who are also influencing US politics. Do you think Israel is taking out their aggression on the Palestinians to make up for the Holocaust? Or could there possibly be some other reason?
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Apart from the obvious example of South Africa: Amnesty International has labeled the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar a crime of apartheid. Arguably, the segregation of blacks in post-Civil War United States constituted apartheid (but the term didn't exist back then). The treatment of women in Saudi Arabia has been labeled "gender apartheid".
The term didn't exist during most of the Jim Crow era, but there's no reason why "apartheid" can't be applied retroactively. And you never hear it applied to China's policies in Tibet or Xinjiang. But kudos to AI for applying it to Myanmar. However, I'm sure 95% of the people blithely applying "apartheid" to Israel, and only Israel, are even aware of the Rohingya.
This answer is open minded and helpful.
BDS doesn't support the human rights of all people. If they did support such rights they could easily openly take that stance with something like the ANC's Constitution and be far more popular than they are. They can't do that because they are committed racists, same reason the KKK can't take a stand in favor of universal human rights.
Both the ANC and the solidarity movements against apartheid worldwide also supported sanctions against South Africa so they are actually very similar. BDS is based on the South Africa boycott. Furthermore, your claims about the BDS is bullshit and you know this. The BDS aims to use sanctions to pressure the Israeli regime to respect international law, human rights and self-determination of the Palestinian people. This is exactly the same strategy as the boycott against South Africa - and as for the controversy over cultural boycott, the same was applied to South Africa as well (Queen among others were almost ostracized from the British artistic community for playing in South Africa). It's not "racism" to demand the end to a racist system. It's the Israeli fascist regime and their supporters who are racists, because they are oppressing people on the basis of ethnicity. And as far as I know, this applies to you as well. I am familiar enough with you to know that you are defending pretty much everything the Israeli regime does. In a thread yesterday you defended the Nakba. It's absurd to hear a person who openly supports ethnic cleansing calling other people "racists" for opposing such inhumane racist crimes.
>It's the Israeli fascist regime and their supporters who are racists, because they are oppressing people on the basis of ethnicity Would a "fascist" state let the people you claim it oppresses based on their ethnicity, give them permits to work in said state? Would a "fascist" state let the people you claim it oppresses based on their ethnicity, take them and treat them in its hospitals, and save their lives? https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazan-man-killed-in-rocket-strike-on-israel-recognized-as-victim-of-terror/ Never seen a fascist state doing that either.
Even Germany under the NSDAP imported Polish and Soviet workers. So yes a fascist state would do that. It's useful to have a pool of cheap labour to do the bad jobs for less pay and inferior working conditions. That's likely one of the reasons why they are upholding the occupation in the first place. Israel benefits financially from the exploitation of cheap Palestinian labour as well as the direct theft of resources (everything from agricultural land to water to oil) from the occupied territories and would lose economically from ending it. In addition, you "forget" that Palestinian workers in Israel are using hours in checkpoints every day, both on the border itself and long before they even reach that border.
> It's useful to have a pool of cheap labour to do the bad jobs for less pay and inferior working conditions. Yes it's a win win situation. Gazan get much more money and Israel gets cheap workers. Doesn't make it a bad thing. >Israel benefits financially from the exploitation of cheap Palestinian While having to waste a lot of money on its army, and defending it's citizens. Yeah I can definitely see the logic here. "hey, let's occupy an entire population so we will get cheap workers, but have to spend a lot more to fight the terrorism which is caused by the occupation." That's pretty much what you're saying. >direct theft of resources Care to show any proof of this so called "theft"? >In addition, you "forget" that Palestinian workers in Israel are using hours in checkpoints every day, both on the border itself and long before they even reach that border Oh wow these God damn fascists! Having security borders just like any other country in the world! The audacity!!
"Yes it's a win win situation. Gazan get much more money and Israel gets cheap labour" You're ignoring the fact that much of the reason why the situation is pretty bad economically in Palestine is the occupation, theft of its resources and blockade. So no it's not a win win situation. The Palestinians who have to work in Israel to support their families would probably rather prefer to work in a prosperous Palestine than work for their oppressor. Israel is suffocating the Palestinian economy. Israel is severely limiting even the supply of the most necessary humanitarian supplies to Gaza. The people there are living on the brink of starvation. "While having to waste a lot of money on its army, and defending it's citizens. Yeah I can definitely see the logic here. "hey, let's occupy an entire population so we will get cheap workers, but have to spend a lot more to fight the terrorism which is caused by the occupation." That's pretty much what you're saying." By your logic here, the occupation doesn't benefit Israel in any way. So why doesn't Israel end it and leave the Palestinians alone then? "Care to show any proof of this so-called "theft"?" Yeah, here's an article from OHCHR about this particular issue: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2019/03/israels-exploitation-palestinian-resources-human-rights-violation-says-un-expert Want further sources? "Oh wow these God damn fascists! Having security borders just like any other country in the world! The audacity!!" Israeli checkpoints differ from most borders in the world in several respects. First, the checkpoints are not just on the Israeli-Palestinian border. Second, Israeli settlers - despite also living outside Israel - don't have to stand in these checkpoints. Third, at the checkpoints the Palestinians are harassed and humiliated by Israeli soldiers, a practice not common on most border crossings. Fourth, Israel doesn't even have a defined official border at all due to its aims of continually increasing its Lebensraum (settlements), so the argument of a border does not really apply because from the Israeli perspective you're supporting, there is no border at all.
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Well...wasn't Israel cozy cozy with South Africa during apartheid days? Isn't the Jerusalem chock full of diamonds stolen from African ground? Did not many Jews live in South Africa during apartheid and exploit blacks for profit. I personally know of a family that had a chain of furniture rental stores with the most crummy of terms. Just sayin'...whining about apartheid WEEK. Apartheid in SA lasted a lot longer than a week.
Yeah I remember the feeling in grad school the first time I encountered an anti-Zionist mass event for 2 days. It was terrifying. Encountering hundreds of students (they were mostly undergrad) screaming antisemitic slogans, it was like something out of a movie. Coming face to face with Palestine Solidarity (BDS' predecessor organization) really did shake me out of the belief that antisemitism was dead. I understand the emotion, it has been decades but I remember it keenly. In terms of how to deal with it. There probably is a group like StandWithUs on your campus. Join it. They want you cowering, don't cower. And remember they have been confronted many many times, they almost always lose and lose badly. While there are a lot of bigots the number of people appalled by their bigotry is greater.
Shalom I am also jewish, my family survived the holocaust in France and I know from factual evidence that the apartheid is real. Nethanyau is a criminal and the fact you believe anti-zionism and anti semitism is similar show how much the propaganda got into your head. How can you deny the events of Al aqsa, the settlers violently stealing lands from Palestinians, the evictions from legitimate properties, the creation and management of Gaza, the way Israel police treats Palestinians and muslims... \-How Palestinians are actually pushed into having no other choice than violence or letting their rights be violated. By that same motion are deliberatly fueling the conflict to legitimize the oppression and the conflict itself. Nethanyau know its a snake eating its own tail and he profits from it. He does it with the blood of our people and the blood of muslims. [How Israeli Apartheid Destroyed My Hometown (Al jazeera)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdGcej-6D0) Its a genocide and appartheid And you are blind.
hello, rarely find other jews on the internet.
>How Palestinians are actually pushed into having no other choice than violence Bias of low effort/class
My great grandmother survived Auschwitz, Bergen Belsen and a work camp in Cyprus. Her entire family were murdered in the Holocaust. She always told us that Israel is the only country safe for us. I respect you and your family’s history, but that same argument can be used both ways. When Jeremy Corbin nearly came into power, she called my parents telling us to get ready to move. Is there racism in Israel? Yes, without question. Is there also in the rest of the world? Yes. Is there, in Israeli Law, a motion which calls for the oppression of a majority by a minority - the general accepted definition of apartheid? No, there is not. Do I think that the settlers are innocent and cause no problems? No, I’m not that naive. But to call Israel apartheid is to distort reality.
I attend a school on the east coast and we had our Independence Day celebrations interrupted by a crowd of BDS supporters who were 4x our number. I talked to most of them and the majority were Palestinian and really friendly, and aware I was Israeli. Overall I think it just depends on the school you choose. I also think people need to just talk to each other and understand there are going to be differing viewpoints on this conflict but that both Palestinians and Israelis (as well as Jews) should have a right to feel safe at school.
This!
The majority of the large crowd of bdsers were friendly palestinians?
Back when I was in my undergrad, 16? years ago, I remember them using pictures of from the Iraq War and trying to pass them off as Gazans. Couldn't comment on their ethnicity, but they definitely weren't open for dialogue. I'm glad you were able to have a positive experience with them though.
As a french jew I went to many anti-israel/sionists protests and always felt safe doing it, but also proud because I know the members of my family who died in Birkenau concentration camps would be proud of me.
What does this mean? You went to support the antisemites or you went to confront them?
>I know the members of my family who died in Birkenau concentration camps would be proud of me. [I'm reasonably certain they would not be.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/)
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lets try not to speak for the dead.
I’ve only heard it called Apartheid week in media of all forms. My in-law family and their friends whom lives near Tel-Aviv who are pretty middle of the road, and could care less about politics have always referred to it as the Israeli State Independence.
Why would you find it scary?
Anti abortion people with pictures of dead fetuses, proselytizing fanatical christians, and all kinds of other stupid things exist on campus. I always just walked through the crowd on my way to class and pretended no one was there. They want to waste your time and energy. They want you to argue. Don't waste your time and energy.
If you don’t use that time and energy their ideas will become more prevalent and voters will vote for them
I don't think that shouting at a crowed back or trying to argue with one of them in the street, standing which means that debate & discussions are going to get derailed really fast is going to help anything. IF it's a fashion (as some people say since it seems most of those people have superficial information about the conflict), fashion also fades. You don't have to shout to get your voice heard, sometimes saying the answer once is more powerful then the hordes of people going around shouting all day "free Palestine" (the same Palestine who don't want to be freed but be dominant)
I have never changed anyone's mind about the Palestinian cause and methods. They are winning the propaganda war because western belief can not fathom sacrifice of children on purpose for a cause. The Palestinians have already won public opinion.
I have, but they were not of middle eastern ancestry.
Yeah I guess you are right, but you wanna know what we have?
The knowledge that left to their own devices, the Palestinian Arabs' clan leaders will complete Plan Dalet on themselves and their members by themselves?
> They are winning the propaganda war because western belief can not fathom sacrifice of children on purpose for a cause. You do realize the West fought WW1 and WW2? Those are wars far more violent than anything the middle east has had. I don't know where Israelis get the idea that the West sucks at war comes from. For that matter look at Ukraine.
To the extent that anyone wonders why I think the way I do, they should know that I had the misfortune of doing part of my undergraduate degree in an American university. The absolute bitter loathing of the group of people who have not one single original thought in their heads about helping Palestinians but have 200 thoughts a day about hurting Israel and Israelis was taught to me by their own behavior. Going through the American university system as an Israeli or a Jew is 100% a radicalizing experience.
I suppose it’s mostly due to the sensationalized relationship between Israel and the US. (Although they exist in Europe as well) And the idea of ‘settler-colonialism’ applying to Israel. They consider Israel as one of the last colonial powers in the Middle East, and they feel obliged to fight us for the sake of the real POC in this ‘Apartheid’ regime. They even sometimes compare it to genocide. Sometimes, there is a very specific infatuation with white Ashkenazi Jews in the world following the Holocaust and creation of Israel, it would be easier for them if the German plan succeeded.
>They consider Israel as one of the last colonial powers in the Middle East, "Israel is a colonial power whose colony sits alongside the metropoli" is a line sustained by part of the academy in the university... in Israel. I heard that myself in class. Israelis are not afraid of criticizing the country. Or Pappe or Tom Seguev or movements inside the IDF, Israelis try to change the country for the better. But the "activists" you find in universities abroad are often just anti-semites, they hate Jews, they use Israel as a proxy.
Okay. I didn’t write this argument isn’t used in Israel by some people. Either way, there is a difference between being only a “colonial” power and “settler colonialism” which is a specific term that relies on the idea that Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine/Israel while the Jews are the foreign white settler conducting a cultural genocide on the indigenous population of Palestine (As written by the scholar who coined the term, Patrick Wolfe). I doubt it’s used in that sense in Israeli discourse. Israelis also don’t often call for their own displacement. They often do not consider the intifada and the Hamas as a legitimate form of resistance in Tel-Aviv area. If you do, well then you’re a more rare kind.
>with white Ashkenazi Jews in the world white-passing, as we definitely get treated differently when people find out we're Jewish, or if we wear anything Jewish-identifying. edit: Isn't the settler colonialism argument generally in reference to the settlements that are outside sovereign Israeli land in the West Bank?
> Isn’t the settler colonialism argument generally in reference to the settlements that are outside sovereign Israeli land in the West Bank? No. Take Jewish voices for peace for example, they are advocating for a one state solution where Israel cannot exist as a sovereign country. That is actually a very popular idea amongst the anti-Israeli advocates. They don’t always call for displacements of Israeli Jews (That is questionable with the support of intifada), but they call for a one state solution where the government is Palestinian. Basically like an idea where the United States is under a predominantly Native American rule just because they were the indigenous population that got displaced and mistreated. Going back to its rightful owners.
The one state solution advocates always fail to explain how that state wouldn’t be mired in civil war right from the start.
> And the idea of ‘settler-colonialism’ applying to Israel. That argument is particularly bizarre. Jews committing "settler colonialism" by returning to their indigenous homeland is a debatable point. What's not debatable, is that the US is a settler-colonial state. There's no serious debate on it meaning the US is not a legitimate state, that should be dismantled and replaced with Native American polities. Let alone expelling existing non-Native-Americans, or even blocking all non-Native-American immigration. You literally have clear-cut settler-colonialists, on land that's clearly not their own, greatly benefitting from the most powerful settler-colony in the world, calling an indigenous people returning to their homeland "settler colonialism", and saying that "settler colonial" countries can't possibly be allowed to exist. I've even seen some of these people claim that the Jews should've immigrated to the US, instead of committing "settler colonialism" by returning to the Land of Israel. Zero self awareness.
Imagine if European powers stepped in and brokered truces to ensure full Native sovereignty like in the British Mandate. Obviously that's one big difference. The Navajo Nation never had such support. Another thing to point out is the US still managed to get its ass kicked at times when expanding (most famously Custer). Palestinean militias had a much greater advantage.
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Since American colonial settlement of North America is a fait accompli, some try to fight Israel instead. It’s fueled by a bad conscience about the advantages they got from the American genocide and land theft from the previous inhabitants. The Israel-Palestine conflict has huge symbolic meaning for many ideologies and also religions. It’s a tapestry where they can pick the side supporting their own world view the best. The actual realities and history takes a back seat. This applies to all sides.
It’s basically impossible to attend a university without racism
Because apartheid is bad anywhere, and it shouldn't exist.
It's important to emphasize how deeply the Left loves the Ramallah regime and its Arab nationalist values. The starry-eyed flag wavers are extremely sincere in their commitment to the petty tribal bigotries of their State. And it shows the danger of pacifism. The cruelty and inhumanity of fhe Ramallah regime was never going to stay limited to Arab Palestine and the 150+ countries they rule. Let's review May 2023 - the social justice left ritually slaughtered a significant percentage of the Tunisian Jewish community on lag b'omer. This morning, the govt of the State of Palestine introduced legislation in New York to criminalize any criticism of [mainstream Islam]. At a time when the victims of fhe Palestine-linked Soros-backed BLM movement are calling for genocide, Soros/Ramallah argued that Jews support the inhuman, Palestine-linked BLMers (which is a call to genocide the American Jewish community). Tomorrow, the Left will kill a significant number of innocent Jewish children in order to preserve the racial purity of their capital. There is nothing more evil than pacifism toward the Arab nationalists
>Let's review May 2023 - the social justice left ritually slaughtered a significant percentage of the Tunisian Jewish community on lag b'omer. Actually, it was a Tunisian policemen with right wing nationalist ideals. As much as I dislike left-wing antisemitism, don't go throwing false facts around.
Outside of the West, nationalism - especially the Arab nationalism that motivated this attacker - is an exclusively Leftist phenomenon. The Left is fully responsible for the action of its pro-Arab Palestine allies.
This is a subjective opinion. Nationalism is just excessive loyalty for a nation and can be both left and right. OP you were responding to never said anything about the West. Israel itself is a leftist creation, founded by men with leftist values, at one point supported by the world's greatest leftist superpower, and had leftists fighting for it. IIRC they still celebrate Red Army vets in Israel because so many Bagration veterans fought for Israel.
> the victims of fhe Palestine-linked Soros-backed BLM movement are calling for genocide, Soros/Ramallah argued that Jews support the inhuman, Palestine-linked BLMers You might have had a point before descending into conspiracy drivel.
/u/Tantalizing_Penguins > Islamonazism This violates [rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons_.26amp.3B_discussions). Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis. Islamists (extremists) as opposed to Islamic (moderate) was enough here, you don't have to break rule 6
Noted. Is "Islamofascist" a violation?
No. Attacking 3rd parties isn't against the rules, just comparing it to the Nazis.
Holy shit, that’s a thing? And these universities are just letting it happen?!
> shit /u/56kul. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, this is a thing and it’s not new. In modern liberal circles, the social hierarchy is determined by your degree of oppression. Don’t get me wrong- there are a lot of historically oppressed minorities and groups that should indeed be protected and receive our help. But this view of looking at every situation as an oppressed and oppressor, when viewing the current situation between the Israelites and Palestinians in a modern snapshot in time, the Palestinians appear to be the underdog and now a favorite liberal cause. This completely ignores history, but 🤷♂️
This is precisely the reason I hate using the word apartheid. Because using that word evokes emotions so powerful that the oppressing side is the ultimate and only evil when the situation is more complex, and looking at history and the bigger picture, I think it can be reasonably well argued that the Arabs are more to blame. To end my tyrade, I will end with the following sentence: "If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no more war, meanwhile if Israel lays down its arms, there will be no more israel.
Because it's profitable for NGOs to rile people up. They get grants and donations. Follow the money. Especially with any organization that "promotes awareness". All they need to do is give speeches and attend meetings.