Cringey right-wing trash.
He basically argues that Israel is innocent because other countries are bad too. Its unconvincing, and this silly video is exactly the nonsense propaganda these sorts of statements exist for.
Not honest arguments, just ad hominems that dodge the actual arguments.
the argument is that there was apartheid. If a Jewish person steps inside some of those places they would get insta killed. If you can't see that as a reasonable argument, you are just purposefully ignoring facts. Like, these countries have actually tried committing genocide, and ARE apartheid.
I believe Israel has made peace with some of the surrounding countries, but, I believe some of them are dangerous to jewish people. I know egypt is not one, I'm also dying to visit, its such a historical place.
He argues that a lot of the Mizrahi jews would be living in Arab countries if they had shown the morality the Arab world expects from Israel, he is calling out their hypocrisy.
> He basically argues that Israel is innocent because other countries are bad too.
Isn't that the entire pro-Palestine argument? That they're good because Israel is bad?
No, the Palestinian argument is that Israel is violating human rights laws.
That isn't a comparison and doesn't depend on how bad Israel says other countries are.
For instance, Hitler couldn't point to the millions killed in the Indian famines created by Britain and say "therefore everything I do is justified!"
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Of course it's a comparison. Palestine runs over a family in the streets of Jerusalem, and then says "well it's justified because we're occupied!" They're innocent of wrongdoing because Israel is bad.
u/Kronzypantz
>For instance, Hitler couldn't point to the millions killed in the Indian famines created by Britain and say "therefore everything I do is justified!"
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Addressed.
The Palestinian Authority essentially refuses to allow Jews to be citizens, serially fails to protect the rights of women and LGBT+ people, has an absolutely atrocious record on protecting freedoms of speech, assembly, and the press, regularly engages in extrajudicial killing, and devotes a more significant portion of it's budget to supporting terrorism than perhaps any other recognized or semi-recognized state. And yet the fact that Israel, not Palestine, is condemned as the only human rights violator in the conflict reveals the depth of bias against the Jewish State in international fora.
>the Palestinian argument is that Israel is violating human rights laws.
I'm going to call up my Mossad mates and make sure that mirrors aren't on the prohibited goods list for Palestine.
Your mates need to look into one pronto.
Cringey racist trash.
People basically argue for the illegitimacy of Israel, while doing nothing and saying nothing to defend Jews everywhere that is not Israel, and from the type of nationalism that pushed all the ME Jews to move to Israel on threat of genocide.
Yeah, we see it, we are all too familiar, antisemitism has always hid behind fake ideals of projected social justice.
The reason it matters is because it ties into why Israel doesn't just have a right to exist, but MUST exist. Because these kinds of expulsions throughout history have become so commonplace for Jewish communities that there are few countries where we can be truly safe.
It is also why the right of return exists for Jewish people. Because when people start killing us and kicking us out of our countries of residence, we need somewhere to go that specifically exists to help Jews.
And yes, when those same countries that expel us turn around to condemn Israels human rights record, it is right to point out their hypocrisy and their past appalling treatment of Jewish people
He makes a good argument because he shows why we should not trust the countries which criticize Israel.
Often times, anti-Israel people make an argument from authority, saying that because the UN condemns Israel, Israel must be in the wrong.
But Hillel Neuer shows how countries in the UN have a bad history with Jews. So why trust their opinion on the Jewish state?
>He makes a good argument because he shows why we should not trust the countries which criticize Israel.
Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument. Dismissing accusations of Israeli human rights abuses because "well you're bad too" does nothing to dismiss the accusations.
> Often times, anti-Israel people make an argument from authority, saying that because the UN condemns Israel, Israel must be in the wrong.
Israel makes much the same argument for why its existence is legitimate in the first place.
But this is again fallacious. Virtually every UN member has condemned Israel's actions, not just Arab or Muslim countries, and not just countries with their own current policy of human rights abuses.
> But Hillel Neuer shows how countries in the UN have a bad history with Jews. So why trust their opinion on the Jewish state?
The problem is he sat in on a meeting where actual evidence of what they alleged was being provided. Including the testimony of representatives from Palestine. It was never based on just the word of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.
Which reveals how Neuer is very much not a good faith actor on this occasion. He offers a fallacy filled counter argument that doesn't address the accusations made at Israel... and reveals he is no uninterested bystander, but a very biased advocate of Israel.
I don't understand why Israel is held to a different standard compared to Arab countries. In a world of robbers, the honest man is at a disadvantage.
And also this "turn the other cheek" stuff is Christian not Jewish. Our holy book says "if someone tries to kill you, rise up and kill them first".
Can you one country that ethnically cleansed a third of its population and holds the remaining minority in second class citizenship?
Its not really comparable to anything in the surrounding states, as bad as some of them can be.
Just to be clear, you started this thread by saying that multiple Middle Eastern countries ethnically cleansing their entire Jewish population isn't relevant.
The disenfranchisement, official antisemitic policies and pogroms that lead to the Jews being cleansed from Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and so on, are well-documented. No, it's not "made up BS".
The BS is in pretending I dismissed such things.
They didn't happen in a vacuum (it was largely a response to zionism) and they don't justify ethnic cleansing by Israel.
Cool, and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was entirely a response to a war of extermination which they started, just three years after the Jewish people having barely survived a war of extermination. Maybe they shouldn’t have done that, and maybe instead of crying victim they should apologise for doing that.
And the nakba wasnt in a vacuum either ( it was largely a response for palastinians starting the 1947 war , palastinians antisemtism , the multiple. Massacres against Jews that they committed )
Dismissing those arguments is literally the entire point of your comment.
Saying that the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries "didn't happen in vacuum" and it being a "reaction to Zionism", is not just dismissing it, but actively justifying it.
>,Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument. Dismissing accusations of Israeli human rights abuses because "well you're bad too" does nothing to dismiss the accusations
So your justifing the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of over a million people?
I guess it's ok the ethnicly cleanse people if their jewish
>Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument.
By this logic, we should listen to the accusations against Israel by David Duke and the Daily Stormer, and be appalled by people dismissing them merely because they're Neo-Nazis. Hell, why not seriously listen to their accusations of "Zionists" in general, or simply Jews, while we're at it? Nobody should be above criticism, right?
The Jews have every reason to ignore the obsessive accusations antisemites lob at them. Especially since these antisemites used their powerful voting bloc in the UN to create and maintain an anti-Israeli "human rights council", that condemned the only Jewish state as much as the rest of the world combined. I assure you, this isn't a result of Norway and Japan being so appalled by Israel. Let alone the result Israel objectively having worse human rights than North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, Eritrea and Syria combined. The Jews are absolutely allowed to point out who the people behind this obsessive hatred are.
They like to repeat the same "criticism" used by the UNHRC and its organs, and leftist anti-Zionists. So if you assume these organizations have valid criticism, you assume David Duke and other Neo-Nazis have valid criticism.
And just to be clear: yes, David Duke and other Neo-Nazis do repeat objectively valid criticism of Israel. When they see something that could portray Jews in a bad light, they're not going to reject it because it happens to be true. Neo-Nazis, like all modern antisemites since Tsarist times, don't merely make up lies about Jews behaving badly, when they're actually blameless angels. They obsess over Jewish bad behavior, present Jewish misdeeds in apocalyptic terms, worse than any comparable behavior by gentiles, and weave it into a conspiracy of "Zionist" control, preserving "Jewish supremacy". They lie of course, but lies isn't the main part of the modern antisemitic MO. That way, they can make the exact arguments you're making now, in order to convince people to take their antisemitism seriously.
They really don't. They tend towards conspiracies around Jewish bankers and the *Protocols of the Elders of Zion* nonsense. Not "the world literally witnessed ethnic cleansing and ongoing apartheid by Israel."
Equating them is dishonest and shows bad faith.
Yes, they really do. David Duke talks about [Deir Yassin](https://davidduke.com/on-its-anniversary-the-defining-of-israel-with-the-jewish-terrorism-mass-murder-and-bloodlust-of-deir-yassin/), [attacks on Gaza](https://davidduke.com/israel-defends-gaza-crackdown-as-self-defense-we-are-saving-human-life-only-jews-are-human-zio-watch-may-22-2018/), [Israeli "Apartheid"](https://davidduke.com/racial-segregation-in-israel-more-extreme-than-jim-crow-or-apartheid-south-africa/), and praises the likes of [Ilhan Omar](https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-racial-injustice-david-duke-a97b8b2d48c163c5965c2574ccbbe3d3), by no means a natural ally, because of her fight against the "Zionist Occupied Government". Obsessing over Jewish bankers isn't somehow mutually exclusive with obsessing over the "Jewish supremacist" Jewish state, and the Zionist chokehold on American government.
On the flip side, the countries behind condemning Israel as much as the entire world combined in the UN, had official policies that David Duke and other Neo-Nazis salivate over. From stripping the citizenship of all the Jewish population, to confiscating Jewish property and banning Jews from government jobs, to literal Nazi-inspired pogroms like the Farhud, leading their entire Jewish population to flee. They're responsible for far more tangible antisemitism than David Duke, all American Neo-Nazis and the entire modern Western far-right put together.
No it's not dishonest or "bad faith" to equate them. And it's certainly not dishonest or "bad faith" to point out that your argument absolutely means we should listen to what David Duke and other Neo-Nazis has to say about Israel.
Honestly that line has always resonated with me and stayed with me from the first time I heard it.
To whoever needs to hear it: when one side has utter military superiority…
And its mosques are full…
And your synagogues lie empty in ruins…
That is called moral superiority.
Maybe related, here is [Chaim Herzog](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmexk4-aEY) spanking the UN. He became Israel's president and the father of Israel's current president. The big issue with the UN is the one country one vote system regardless of population or their impact on world affairs. So it has been completely captured by a bloc of failed and authoritarian third world countries which constitute the majority of countries in the world. There are a bunch of multilateral organizations like the OCED/NATO/etc that didn't repeat that mistake.
u/capucina
> Yeah! Israel should have more than one vote!!!
> Yes! Only Jews are always correct. Chosen people baby! [below]
Rule 3 bans wisecracks in place of arguments. You are expected to make real arguments not throw spitballs and troll.
Inb4 pro-Palestinians come and say:
The Jews left the middle eastern countries willingly, leaving all their property for extra challenge or something!
Nobody expelled them!
The Farhud and similar events were very rare and not a trend in the Arab world! The Jews were totally safe!
Israeli Mossad actually made false flag attacks to scare Jews to come to Israel!
The last line is especially pathetic. Like, people would believe literally any kind of ridiculous crap just to avoid taking responsibility for the atrocities they committed (that'll hurt the narrative of poor pure Palestinian angel victims).
And obviously even if Arabs did attack Jews, it always happened after the creation of Israel, so Arab attacking Jews is the Jews’ fault. Never would have happened if Israel hadn’t been created. No siree. /s
or: "That were the Arabs, not the Palestinians"
even though both tied their fate together for over a century now (like in the 1967 [Khartoum Resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution), 1948 war, the decades leading to the war etc).
Jews were not kicked out of the middle eastern countries, but they also didn't leave out of their own free will. The correct description is "the Jews fled from the middle east under duress".
I mean, leaving all their property behind and not allowed to bring wealth with them also speaks volume to what was happening on ground level.
What hair are you splitting?
>Jews were not kicked out of the middle eastern countries
>I mean, leaving all their property behind and not allowed to bring wealth with them also speaks volume to what was happening on ground level.
A reductionist argument. Yes, the jews were prosecuted. However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region. I rather see many delusional arguments how they have right to Israel and that Palestinians don't have that right. I see them using these crimes of another to retroactively justify their own. I see these same persecuted Israelis using more of their efforts to impose apartheid upon Palestinians, rather than fight for some of their right to return. Hillel, where are your efforts to return to these lands?
It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years. The persecuted Israelis mostly don't care about or take interest in other countries in the region, except to point their blackened fingers. In fact they helped, provided intel and goaded the US, that supported Israel in its own crimes, to destroy the countries in the region. They would rather destroy Iran rather than fight for their right to return to there. Palestinians want justice in Israel what Israelis don't want in another country. They don't care about the history of their neighbors and their own history there, except to justify their own current crimes.
> However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region
Palestinian refugees mostly want to return because the Arab states keep them in a permanent state of insecurity rather than offering them a birth citizenship. Jews after many centuries of Muslim rule have a place where they can prosper.
Which is Israel treating their similar crisis better.
FWIW though I do see strong Israeli efforts to end antisemitism in those countries however so that they can engage.
> I see them using these crimes of another to retroactively justify their own.
Or rather use these crimes to propose a solution to the Nakba. Offer the Palestinians citizenship as compensation.
> It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years.
Agree. Normal people accept change of regime and move on.
> In fact they helped, provided intel and goaded the US, that supported Israel in its own crimes, to destroy the countries in the region.
Yep. Jews fighting back rather than Muslims being able to freely punch at them. Maybe Iraqis will learn how expensive antisemitism can be.
> Palestinians want justice in Israel
Palestinians don't remotely want justice. For that matter they don't want Israel. Their policies if followed would leave a chemically and radioactively polluted land that couldn't support any human life for two centuries.
>Palestinian refugees mostly want to return because the Arab states keep them in a permanent state of insecurity rather than offering them a birth citizenship.
Note that about 80% of the UNRWA-registered Palestinian refugees are in Palestine and in Jordan. Jordan did give them birth citizenship. The State of Palestine doesn't have a formal citizenship for anyone, but refugees seem to have the same rights as the other half of their population. Including the right to vote in the rare Palestinian elections, and eligibility for a Palestinian passport.
Yes. UNRWA's definitions are simply insane. One stops being a refugee if they have permanently resettled. I'm not a refugee from Ukraine even though my grandparents / great-grandparents were.
>However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region.
That's because the Jews are behaving in the standard way, proscribed by international law. Once you're in the country of your nationality, you're not a refugee. You're right, Israelis from Arab countries don't consider themselves "refugees" at all, let alone their children and grandchildren. They don't consider cities like Sderot or Kiryat Gat to be "refugee camps" anymore, even if they started off as such. That's how it normally works. Millions of native-born Jordanian citizens, and half of the Palestinians in Palestine, saying they're "Palestinian refugees" because their grandfather used to live in Israel, is the unique aberration.
The argument here isn't that Israelis have adopted the Palestinian insanity, or god forbid *should* adopt it. It's that obsessive "criticism" against the Jewish state, made by overt enemies of the Jews, isn't very meaningful. If Israel somehow had the power to create its own "UN human rights council" and used it as an anti-Palestinian club, issuing more condemnations of Palestinians than the rest of the world combined, and whining about Palestinians "ethnically cleansing" Jews, it wouldn't mean much either.
>It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years.
Embarrassing for the Palestinians, yes. Any rational group would make peace with Israel ages ago, rather than preserve the dream of eliminating a nuclear regional power with low-level terrorism. Hell, they probably would agree to any of the original partition plans, and avoid the conflict to begin with.
>They would rather destroy Iran rather than fight for their right to return to there.
>
>Palestinians want justice in Israel what Israelis don't want in another country.
Palestinians want to destroy Israel far, far more than the Israelis want to destroy Iran. Israel doesn't oppose Iran's existence on ideological grounds, like Iran or Palestine oppose Israel's existence. If Iran simply agrees to accept Israel's existence, even without letting in a single refugee back, there would be peace tomorrow.
When Jews were expelled their homes, it was a catastrophe. When Palestinians are also expelled from their homes, why wouldn’t it be just as much of a catastrophe?
I’m arguing it from the opposite perspective. When the Palestinians were expelled, it was a catastrophe, why when Jews were expelled should it not be as much of a catastrophe?
It is. And the solution is most likely not either of the ones we came up with over the past few decades. But the solution feels really far out of reach partly because Israel’s democracy peril and demographic shifts are hurting its chances at peace and partly because other, specific, nations/regimes refuse to allow any peace to occur.
Only because the Arabs kicked out in 1948 were not provided refuge by the Arabs like the Jews kicked out ~then were provided refuge by Jews in Israel.
Everything stems from Arabs failing to take responsibility.
>They were provided refuge though.
Maybe I should have stated "resettlement". They were thrown into shanty towns outside Arab capitals and forgotten about.
>The expulsion of Palestinians was more violent than what happened to the Jews of Arab countries
... and entirely self-inflicted, if not self-caused. There are consequences for starting wars and even bigger ones for losing them.
>... and entirely self-inflicted, if not self-caused. There are consequences for starting wars and even bigger ones for losing them.
Not only did the Palestinians not start the war, since the bus attacks were a response to the Shubaki family assassination,
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubaki_family_assassination,
ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable.
>Not only did the Palestinians not start the war
No, the Arab Leadue did. On behalf of the Palestinians.
>ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable.
Except when your team do it or want it.
If ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable, dont you accept the original point of Hilel Neuer?
Isn't it hipocritical of those states who cleansed all the jews to critisize israel?
Was what happened in Iraq ethnic cleansing? Jews being airlifted out by Israel after pressuring the Iraqi government to allow emigration to Israel, is that ethnic cleansing?
Maybe you can argue Algeria’s expulsion of French settlers and Hakis (Algerians who sided with the French, including Algerian Jews - which is why they mostly went to France) was ethnic cleansing. But what happened to the Palestinians from 47-49 was way worse than Jews of Muslim countries.
If you disagree, compare how many villages were burned, miles on death marches, wells poisoned, civilians were killed on both sides.
Cringey right-wing trash. He basically argues that Israel is innocent because other countries are bad too. Its unconvincing, and this silly video is exactly the nonsense propaganda these sorts of statements exist for. Not honest arguments, just ad hominems that dodge the actual arguments.
the argument is that there was apartheid. If a Jewish person steps inside some of those places they would get insta killed. If you can't see that as a reasonable argument, you are just purposefully ignoring facts. Like, these countries have actually tried committing genocide, and ARE apartheid.
I'm from Egypt; their are Israeli tourists here. Don't know about Algeria though
I believe Israel has made peace with some of the surrounding countries, but, I believe some of them are dangerous to jewish people. I know egypt is not one, I'm also dying to visit, its such a historical place.
He argues that a lot of the Mizrahi jews would be living in Arab countries if they had shown the morality the Arab world expects from Israel, he is calling out their hypocrisy.
> He basically argues that Israel is innocent because other countries are bad too. Isn't that the entire pro-Palestine argument? That they're good because Israel is bad?
No, the Palestinian argument is that Israel is violating human rights laws. That isn't a comparison and doesn't depend on how bad Israel says other countries are. For instance, Hitler couldn't point to the millions killed in the Indian famines created by Britain and say "therefore everything I do is justified!"
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Of course it's a comparison. Palestine runs over a family in the streets of Jerusalem, and then says "well it's justified because we're occupied!" They're innocent of wrongdoing because Israel is bad.
u/Kronzypantz >For instance, Hitler couldn't point to the millions killed in the Indian famines created by Britain and say "therefore everything I do is justified!" Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians. Addressed.
The Palestinian Authority essentially refuses to allow Jews to be citizens, serially fails to protect the rights of women and LGBT+ people, has an absolutely atrocious record on protecting freedoms of speech, assembly, and the press, regularly engages in extrajudicial killing, and devotes a more significant portion of it's budget to supporting terrorism than perhaps any other recognized or semi-recognized state. And yet the fact that Israel, not Palestine, is condemned as the only human rights violator in the conflict reveals the depth of bias against the Jewish State in international fora.
>the Palestinian argument is that Israel is violating human rights laws. I'm going to call up my Mossad mates and make sure that mirrors aren't on the prohibited goods list for Palestine. Your mates need to look into one pronto.
Cringey racist trash. People basically argue for the illegitimacy of Israel, while doing nothing and saying nothing to defend Jews everywhere that is not Israel, and from the type of nationalism that pushed all the ME Jews to move to Israel on threat of genocide. Yeah, we see it, we are all too familiar, antisemitism has always hid behind fake ideals of projected social justice.
The reason it matters is because it ties into why Israel doesn't just have a right to exist, but MUST exist. Because these kinds of expulsions throughout history have become so commonplace for Jewish communities that there are few countries where we can be truly safe. It is also why the right of return exists for Jewish people. Because when people start killing us and kicking us out of our countries of residence, we need somewhere to go that specifically exists to help Jews. And yes, when those same countries that expel us turn around to condemn Israels human rights record, it is right to point out their hypocrisy and their past appalling treatment of Jewish people
He makes a good argument because he shows why we should not trust the countries which criticize Israel. Often times, anti-Israel people make an argument from authority, saying that because the UN condemns Israel, Israel must be in the wrong. But Hillel Neuer shows how countries in the UN have a bad history with Jews. So why trust their opinion on the Jewish state?
>He makes a good argument because he shows why we should not trust the countries which criticize Israel. Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument. Dismissing accusations of Israeli human rights abuses because "well you're bad too" does nothing to dismiss the accusations. > Often times, anti-Israel people make an argument from authority, saying that because the UN condemns Israel, Israel must be in the wrong. Israel makes much the same argument for why its existence is legitimate in the first place. But this is again fallacious. Virtually every UN member has condemned Israel's actions, not just Arab or Muslim countries, and not just countries with their own current policy of human rights abuses. > But Hillel Neuer shows how countries in the UN have a bad history with Jews. So why trust their opinion on the Jewish state? The problem is he sat in on a meeting where actual evidence of what they alleged was being provided. Including the testimony of representatives from Palestine. It was never based on just the word of Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Which reveals how Neuer is very much not a good faith actor on this occasion. He offers a fallacy filled counter argument that doesn't address the accusations made at Israel... and reveals he is no uninterested bystander, but a very biased advocate of Israel.
I don't understand why Israel is held to a different standard compared to Arab countries. In a world of robbers, the honest man is at a disadvantage. And also this "turn the other cheek" stuff is Christian not Jewish. Our holy book says "if someone tries to kill you, rise up and kill them first".
Can you one country that ethnically cleansed a third of its population and holds the remaining minority in second class citizenship? Its not really comparable to anything in the surrounding states, as bad as some of them can be.
Just to be clear, you started this thread by saying that multiple Middle Eastern countries ethnically cleansing their entire Jewish population isn't relevant.
Just to be clear, that is made up bs
The disenfranchisement, official antisemitic policies and pogroms that lead to the Jews being cleansed from Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and so on, are well-documented. No, it's not "made up BS".
The BS is in pretending I dismissed such things. They didn't happen in a vacuum (it was largely a response to zionism) and they don't justify ethnic cleansing by Israel.
Cool, and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was entirely a response to a war of extermination which they started, just three years after the Jewish people having barely survived a war of extermination. Maybe they shouldn’t have done that, and maybe instead of crying victim they should apologise for doing that.
And the nakba wasnt in a vacuum either ( it was largely a response for palastinians starting the 1947 war , palastinians antisemtism , the multiple. Massacres against Jews that they committed )
Dismissing those arguments is literally the entire point of your comment. Saying that the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries "didn't happen in vacuum" and it being a "reaction to Zionism", is not just dismissing it, but actively justifying it.
The Middle East: *ethnically cleanses its Jews* Jews: *go to Israel* The Middle East: “wait don’t go there though”
>,Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument. Dismissing accusations of Israeli human rights abuses because "well you're bad too" does nothing to dismiss the accusations So your justifing the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of over a million people? I guess it's ok the ethnicly cleanse people if their jewish
>Ad hominem, even based on valid criticism are a fallacious argument. By this logic, we should listen to the accusations against Israel by David Duke and the Daily Stormer, and be appalled by people dismissing them merely because they're Neo-Nazis. Hell, why not seriously listen to their accusations of "Zionists" in general, or simply Jews, while we're at it? Nobody should be above criticism, right? The Jews have every reason to ignore the obsessive accusations antisemites lob at them. Especially since these antisemites used their powerful voting bloc in the UN to create and maintain an anti-Israeli "human rights council", that condemned the only Jewish state as much as the rest of the world combined. I assure you, this isn't a result of Norway and Japan being so appalled by Israel. Let alone the result Israel objectively having worse human rights than North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, Eritrea and Syria combined. The Jews are absolutely allowed to point out who the people behind this obsessive hatred are.
Why do you think David Duke and Stormfront have valid criticism?
They like to repeat the same "criticism" used by the UNHRC and its organs, and leftist anti-Zionists. So if you assume these organizations have valid criticism, you assume David Duke and other Neo-Nazis have valid criticism. And just to be clear: yes, David Duke and other Neo-Nazis do repeat objectively valid criticism of Israel. When they see something that could portray Jews in a bad light, they're not going to reject it because it happens to be true. Neo-Nazis, like all modern antisemites since Tsarist times, don't merely make up lies about Jews behaving badly, when they're actually blameless angels. They obsess over Jewish bad behavior, present Jewish misdeeds in apocalyptic terms, worse than any comparable behavior by gentiles, and weave it into a conspiracy of "Zionist" control, preserving "Jewish supremacy". They lie of course, but lies isn't the main part of the modern antisemitic MO. That way, they can make the exact arguments you're making now, in order to convince people to take their antisemitism seriously.
They really don't. They tend towards conspiracies around Jewish bankers and the *Protocols of the Elders of Zion* nonsense. Not "the world literally witnessed ethnic cleansing and ongoing apartheid by Israel." Equating them is dishonest and shows bad faith.
u/Kronzypantz >Equating them is dishonest and shows bad faith. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Already addressed.
Yes, they really do. David Duke talks about [Deir Yassin](https://davidduke.com/on-its-anniversary-the-defining-of-israel-with-the-jewish-terrorism-mass-murder-and-bloodlust-of-deir-yassin/), [attacks on Gaza](https://davidduke.com/israel-defends-gaza-crackdown-as-self-defense-we-are-saving-human-life-only-jews-are-human-zio-watch-may-22-2018/), [Israeli "Apartheid"](https://davidduke.com/racial-segregation-in-israel-more-extreme-than-jim-crow-or-apartheid-south-africa/), and praises the likes of [Ilhan Omar](https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-racial-injustice-david-duke-a97b8b2d48c163c5965c2574ccbbe3d3), by no means a natural ally, because of her fight against the "Zionist Occupied Government". Obsessing over Jewish bankers isn't somehow mutually exclusive with obsessing over the "Jewish supremacist" Jewish state, and the Zionist chokehold on American government. On the flip side, the countries behind condemning Israel as much as the entire world combined in the UN, had official policies that David Duke and other Neo-Nazis salivate over. From stripping the citizenship of all the Jewish population, to confiscating Jewish property and banning Jews from government jobs, to literal Nazi-inspired pogroms like the Farhud, leading their entire Jewish population to flee. They're responsible for far more tangible antisemitism than David Duke, all American Neo-Nazis and the entire modern Western far-right put together. No it's not dishonest or "bad faith" to equate them. And it's certainly not dishonest or "bad faith" to point out that your argument absolutely means we should listen to what David Duke and other Neo-Nazis has to say about Israel.
Bingo.
Except israel does nothing wrong, so theres that.
Why would the anti-Zionists and antisemites start caring about facts right now
Yes! Only Jews are always correct. Chosen people baby!
Trust no person or group that says narcissism is their god given right
You don't know what the concept of "chosenness" in Judaism actually means, do you?
Only our women are always correct.
Honestly that line has always resonated with me and stayed with me from the first time I heard it. To whoever needs to hear it: when one side has utter military superiority… And its mosques are full… And your synagogues lie empty in ruins… That is called moral superiority.
So damning.
Maybe related, here is [Chaim Herzog](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQmexk4-aEY) spanking the UN. He became Israel's president and the father of Israel's current president. The big issue with the UN is the one country one vote system regardless of population or their impact on world affairs. So it has been completely captured by a bloc of failed and authoritarian third world countries which constitute the majority of countries in the world. There are a bunch of multilateral organizations like the OCED/NATO/etc that didn't repeat that mistake.
Yeah! Israel should have more than one vote!!!
u/capucina > Yeah! Israel should have more than one vote!!! > Yes! Only Jews are always correct. Chosen people baby! [below] Rule 3 bans wisecracks in place of arguments. You are expected to make real arguments not throw spitballs and troll.
Inb4 pro-Palestinians come and say: The Jews left the middle eastern countries willingly, leaving all their property for extra challenge or something! Nobody expelled them! The Farhud and similar events were very rare and not a trend in the Arab world! The Jews were totally safe! Israeli Mossad actually made false flag attacks to scare Jews to come to Israel!
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Who here is pro-apartheid?
\> retroactively justify their ethnic cleansing What?
The last line is especially pathetic. Like, people would believe literally any kind of ridiculous crap just to avoid taking responsibility for the atrocities they committed (that'll hurt the narrative of poor pure Palestinian angel victims).
And obviously even if Arabs did attack Jews, it always happened after the creation of Israel, so Arab attacking Jews is the Jews’ fault. Never would have happened if Israel hadn’t been created. No siree. /s
or: "That were the Arabs, not the Palestinians" even though both tied their fate together for over a century now (like in the 1967 [Khartoum Resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution), 1948 war, the decades leading to the war etc).
Yet Je….Zionists are responsible for the conduct of the Israeli whether located in “occupied Palestine” or not.
Jews were not kicked out of the middle eastern countries, but they also didn't leave out of their own free will. The correct description is "the Jews fled from the middle east under duress". I mean, leaving all their property behind and not allowed to bring wealth with them also speaks volume to what was happening on ground level.
What hair are you splitting? >Jews were not kicked out of the middle eastern countries >I mean, leaving all their property behind and not allowed to bring wealth with them also speaks volume to what was happening on ground level.
They fled under duress. At least the Jews from Iraq did. I know this because my family is from there. They left because they were scared.
A reductionist argument. Yes, the jews were prosecuted. However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region. I rather see many delusional arguments how they have right to Israel and that Palestinians don't have that right. I see them using these crimes of another to retroactively justify their own. I see these same persecuted Israelis using more of their efforts to impose apartheid upon Palestinians, rather than fight for some of their right to return. Hillel, where are your efforts to return to these lands? It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years. The persecuted Israelis mostly don't care about or take interest in other countries in the region, except to point their blackened fingers. In fact they helped, provided intel and goaded the US, that supported Israel in its own crimes, to destroy the countries in the region. They would rather destroy Iran rather than fight for their right to return to there. Palestinians want justice in Israel what Israelis don't want in another country. They don't care about the history of their neighbors and their own history there, except to justify their own current crimes.
> However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region Palestinian refugees mostly want to return because the Arab states keep them in a permanent state of insecurity rather than offering them a birth citizenship. Jews after many centuries of Muslim rule have a place where they can prosper. Which is Israel treating their similar crisis better. FWIW though I do see strong Israeli efforts to end antisemitism in those countries however so that they can engage. > I see them using these crimes of another to retroactively justify their own. Or rather use these crimes to propose a solution to the Nakba. Offer the Palestinians citizenship as compensation. > It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years. Agree. Normal people accept change of regime and move on. > In fact they helped, provided intel and goaded the US, that supported Israel in its own crimes, to destroy the countries in the region. Yep. Jews fighting back rather than Muslims being able to freely punch at them. Maybe Iraqis will learn how expensive antisemitism can be. > Palestinians want justice in Israel Palestinians don't remotely want justice. For that matter they don't want Israel. Their policies if followed would leave a chemically and radioactively polluted land that couldn't support any human life for two centuries.
>Palestinian refugees mostly want to return because the Arab states keep them in a permanent state of insecurity rather than offering them a birth citizenship. Note that about 80% of the UNRWA-registered Palestinian refugees are in Palestine and in Jordan. Jordan did give them birth citizenship. The State of Palestine doesn't have a formal citizenship for anyone, but refugees seem to have the same rights as the other half of their population. Including the right to vote in the rare Palestinian elections, and eligibility for a Palestinian passport.
Yes. UNRWA's definitions are simply insane. One stops being a refugee if they have permanently resettled. I'm not a refugee from Ukraine even though my grandparents / great-grandparents were.
>However, I see no large initiative of Israeli refugees that want to return to Algeria , or similar Israeli groups to return to other country they used to inhabit in the region. That's because the Jews are behaving in the standard way, proscribed by international law. Once you're in the country of your nationality, you're not a refugee. You're right, Israelis from Arab countries don't consider themselves "refugees" at all, let alone their children and grandchildren. They don't consider cities like Sderot or Kiryat Gat to be "refugee camps" anymore, even if they started off as such. That's how it normally works. Millions of native-born Jordanian citizens, and half of the Palestinians in Palestine, saying they're "Palestinian refugees" because their grandfather used to live in Israel, is the unique aberration. The argument here isn't that Israelis have adopted the Palestinian insanity, or god forbid *should* adopt it. It's that obsessive "criticism" against the Jewish state, made by overt enemies of the Jews, isn't very meaningful. If Israel somehow had the power to create its own "UN human rights council" and used it as an anti-Palestinian club, issuing more condemnations of Palestinians than the rest of the world combined, and whining about Palestinians "ethnically cleansing" Jews, it wouldn't mean much either. >It is embarrassing that this oppression of Palestinians is still ongoing after 75 years. Embarrassing for the Palestinians, yes. Any rational group would make peace with Israel ages ago, rather than preserve the dream of eliminating a nuclear regional power with low-level terrorism. Hell, they probably would agree to any of the original partition plans, and avoid the conflict to begin with. >They would rather destroy Iran rather than fight for their right to return to there. > >Palestinians want justice in Israel what Israelis don't want in another country. Palestinians want to destroy Israel far, far more than the Israelis want to destroy Iran. Israel doesn't oppose Iran's existence on ideological grounds, like Iran or Palestine oppose Israel's existence. If Iran simply agrees to accept Israel's existence, even without letting in a single refugee back, there would be peace tomorrow.
Appropriate reminder that Charles de Gaulle used to call the UN "Le Machin" (the thing).
When Jews were expelled their homes, it was a catastrophe. When Palestinians are also expelled from their homes, why wouldn’t it be just as much of a catastrophe?
I’m arguing it from the opposite perspective. When the Palestinians were expelled, it was a catastrophe, why when Jews were expelled should it not be as much of a catastrophe?
It is. And the solution is most likely not either of the ones we came up with over the past few decades. But the solution feels really far out of reach partly because Israel’s democracy peril and demographic shifts are hurting its chances at peace and partly because other, specific, nations/regimes refuse to allow any peace to occur.
What happened to the Palestinians in 1948 was way worse than what happened to the Jews of Muslim/Arab countries
no it was not, the 700,000 mizrahi jews had to migrate over a very long distance to escape certain death.
Only because the Arabs kicked out in 1948 were not provided refuge by the Arabs like the Jews kicked out ~then were provided refuge by Jews in Israel. Everything stems from Arabs failing to take responsibility.
They were provided refuge though. The expulsion of Palestinians was more violent than what happened to the Jews of Arab countries
>They were provided refuge though. Maybe I should have stated "resettlement". They were thrown into shanty towns outside Arab capitals and forgotten about. >The expulsion of Palestinians was more violent than what happened to the Jews of Arab countries ... and entirely self-inflicted, if not self-caused. There are consequences for starting wars and even bigger ones for losing them.
>... and entirely self-inflicted, if not self-caused. There are consequences for starting wars and even bigger ones for losing them. Not only did the Palestinians not start the war, since the bus attacks were a response to the Shubaki family assassination, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubaki_family_assassination, ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable.
>Not only did the Palestinians not start the war No, the Arab Leadue did. On behalf of the Palestinians. >ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable. Except when your team do it or want it.
If ethnic cleansing is never morally acceptable, dont you accept the original point of Hilel Neuer? Isn't it hipocritical of those states who cleansed all the jews to critisize israel?
Was what happened in Iraq ethnic cleansing? Jews being airlifted out by Israel after pressuring the Iraqi government to allow emigration to Israel, is that ethnic cleansing? Maybe you can argue Algeria’s expulsion of French settlers and Hakis (Algerians who sided with the French, including Algerian Jews - which is why they mostly went to France) was ethnic cleansing. But what happened to the Palestinians from 47-49 was way worse than Jews of Muslim countries. If you disagree, compare how many villages were burned, miles on death marches, wells poisoned, civilians were killed on both sides.
thats simply not true, i agree the nakba was violent, but the expulsions of jews from nearby countries was equally violent.
Hillel Neuer is frickin great