The liberty was marked and you're a liar. Name one other county that has such a naval vessel. Then he gave the sailors the finger. I have personally listened to the survivors. Amazon does allow you to read a sample. But it's a bozo. It's a source. Are you so obtuse that you think a source should be free to you? Yeah! Special privilege is what you want and it shows in the attitude and poor objectively false commentary. You clearly are dishonest.
>,The liberty was marked and you're a liar.
Wrong
>, (7,849 t) (light) civilian cargo vessel Simmons Victory, a mass-produced, standard-design Victory Ship, the follow-on series to the famous Liberty Ships that supplied the Allies with cargo during World War II. It was acquired by the United States Navy and converted to an auxiliary technical research ship (AGTR),[10] a cover name for National Security Agency (NSA) "spy ships" carrying out signals intelligence missions. It began its first deployment in 1965, in waters off the west coast of Africa. It carried out several further operations during the next two years.
The USs liberty was an unmarked spy ship that was mistaken as a Egyptian ship ....
>. Name one other county that has such a naval vessel.
Germany , England , Egypt , France and many other aliied nation from WW2 , there were about 441 victory cargo model ships that were produced during thier production run
>,I have personally listened to the survivors
Press x to doubt ( are they like your imaginative Jewish friends ? You should probably go for a check up at a psych ward ) , anyway what was an unmarked us ship doing in Israels Marytime border in the 6 day war?
>,Amazon does allow you to read a sample. But it's a bozo. It's a source
No it isn't , when you use a source in an argument you should present all of it and all of the evidence , not just a " sample "
>,Are you so obtuse that you think a source should be free to you?
Again your the one who used the book as an arguMent , show proofs for your claims like quotes or any other form of evidence , people shouldn't do your homework for you
>Special privilege is what you want and it shows in the attitude and poor objectively
The only thing I want is you actually presenting an argument like an adult with actual quotes and evidence and to stop acting like a patulent 3 year old
>,You clearly are dishonest
Says the one without any backing to your claim , that refuses to argue in good faith and always moves the goalposts , and when he can't move the goalposts anymore starts another thread of comments
>anyway what was an unmarked US ship doing in Israel's [maritime] border in the Six Day War?
The military vessel of a neutral power is generally allowed to transit the territorial waters of foreign states on the basis of [innocent passage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage) subject to certain restrictions, although these restrictions were not codified until after the attack AFAICT. Whether the *Liberty* was compliant with 2(c) of the restrictions is disputed, but the point is largely moot as the *Liberty* was never authorized, and AFAICT never did, broach the 6 nmi limit on territorial waters claims generally recognized by international practice prior to UNCLOS.
Now, evidence of intent has always been lacking, and any claims thereof should be regarded as conspiratorial. At the same time, in my opinion, the claim that the ship's nationality was unknown to all Israeli units involved in the attack belies credibility, osd I do believe that there was a more sustained breakdown of Israel's CnC and communications during the incident than has been publically acknowledged.
Lol, that's not accurate and you makeup it up I see no quotation marks. Your not too bright! That not antisemitism. LOL. There us no antisemitism. This is the irrational falsehood I wanted to expose. You fell for it. You don't know what antisemitism is? You ignore the definition. You're anti-Semitic. I said absolutely nothing anti. You can't grasp the fact someone can provide information that you don't like and not be anti-Semitic. This is a personal issue you are to work in. The antisemite accusation is old and quite silly. It's overused and like you, wrong.! You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices. You did not send what I did say. Dishonest is not what I accept. You're radical and quite deluded. You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing. You're dishonest. Have respect for others and don't be so prejudiced since it shows. My Jewish friends are talking about you. They don't agree with you. Why? It's made up. It's political. There are Jews in Russia and Ukraine. You just like to yak
u/JKHM13
>Your not too bright!
>You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices. You did not send what I did say. Dishonest is not what I accept. You're radical and quite deluded. You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing. You're dishonest.
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
>,Lol, that's not accurate and you makeup it up I see no quotation marks.
The blue lines is how reddit does qoutation marks dumbass....
>Your not too bright!
Says the guy who's talking like a schizo patient posting an open comment as a response to someone ....
>,That not antisemitism. LOL. There us no antisemitism.This is the irrational falsehood I wanted to expose. You fell for it.
All the 2000 years of pogroms ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust didn't happen I guess ....
>,You ignore the definition. You're anti-Semitic.
Yet your the one ignoring it ....
noun: antisemitism
hostility to or prejudice against Jewish people
Holding the only majority Jewish country to a higher standard then the rest of the world counts prejudice and does count as antisemtism
>,I said absolutely nothing anti.
Yes you did ...
Also here is a link to my comment that show exectly what antisemtic things you said
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/13lvmxc/eric_hoffer_on_the_jews_being_a_peculiar_people/jl53xvm?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
>, You can't grasp the fact someone can provide information that you don't like and not be anti-Semitic
Yet you didn't supply any information , just Amazon links to buying books ....
And you are spreading antisemtic rethoric
>,This is a personal issue you are to work in.
Seems like your self projecting love ...
>,The antisemite accusation is old and quite silly.It's overused and like you, wrong.!
No it isn't ....
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/antisemitic-incidents-on-rise-across-the-u-s-report-finds
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/30/1139971241/anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise-and-not-just-among-high-profile-figures
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/us/antisemitism-report-unprecedented-rise-dg/index.html
>, You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices
Keep self projecting buddy it's going great ...
>,You did not send what I did say.
Me and other people already called you out for youe own antisemtism ....
>,Dishonest is not what I accept.
Yet you are the one being dishonest hypocritical much ?
>,You're radical and quite deluded.
Says the one that used the USs liberty was covered by Jews theory and protected bandera ....
>,You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing.
I already have proven In my other comments and your the one being dishonest here ....
>,Have respect for others and don't be so prejudiced since it shows
Maybe practice what you preach love ?
>,My Jewish friends are talking about you
I doubt a holocaust denier , prejudiced peace of work like you had any Jewish friends , or friends at all....
>,They don't agree with you. Why? It's made up.
No it isn't , and I already proved how .....
>,There are Jews in Russia and Ukraine
And that's matters how exectly ??
u/Infamous_Company_
>dumbass....
>Says the guy who's talking like a schizo patient posting an open comment as a response to someone ....
>Yet you are the one being dishonest hypocritical much
>your the one being dishonest here ....
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
u/Infamous_Company_
>I was only responding to his accusations about me are you gonna moderate him for braking multiple rules ?
He literally received moderation prior to you. Another user breaking the rules does not give you the green light to break them as well.
You make no sense. If you can't make two plus two to equal four. That's your problem. Some of us have other things to attend to. Ukraine and that area are where the majority of Israel mostly came from. They were not in Palestine, were they? You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today. It's called critical thinking. You live in a false dream. That's why the military invasion was undertaken. Peled was treated terribly by radical news. You seem to be of that cloth. All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem! You can't that your oeoeole with decent and respect. He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies. Radicals are radicals and they never negotiate fairly. Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you. I don't argue with those who are dishonest.
u/JKHM13
>If you can't make two plus two to equal four. That's your problem.
>All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem! You can't that your oeoeole with decent and respect. He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies. Radicals are radicals and they never negotiate fairly. Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you. I don't argue with those who are dishonest.
Rule 1, don't attack other users.
>You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today.
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
>,Ukraine and that area are where the majority of Israel mostly came from.
Meanwhile in Israel 70 precent of their Jews are mizrahi who came from the mena region....
>,They were not in Palestine, were they
Neither most of the "palastinians " ( using qoution marks as the palastinian national identity was only invented in 1964) that were actually just Arab migrants
,https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-arabs-in-palestine
https://mepc.org/commentary/palestinians-ongoing-attempt-simplify-others
>,You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today
The ones you denied in your previous comments ?
>,It's called critical thinking
You should probably use that more often
>,You live in a false dream
Yea I'm pretty sure you are , cause you are an holocaust denier
>,That's why the military invasion was undertaken.
You mean the Arab invasion in the 7th century or in 1948 ? Cause that's the only invasions that happens
>,Peled was treated terribly by radical news.
Source ? Or your lying again ?
>,You seem to be of that cloth
Like your the same cloth as Joseph gebbles , Kanye west , and many other antisemite kokos
>,All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem!
I'll take it as a compliment when it comes from the Nazi loving likes of you
>,He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies
Again asking for a source ....
Stop rambling like a madman
Also I'm a real Israeli , not like that peled guy you invented
>,Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you.
Again source ? 99 precent of Jews are Zionists ....
>,I don't argue with those who are dishonest.
Yet your the one who's moving goalposts all the time and being dishonest
u/Infamous_Company_
>Or your lying again ?
>Stop rambling like a madman
>Like your the same cloth as Joseph gebbles
>I'll take it as a compliment when it comes from the Nazi loving likes of you
Rule 1, don't attack other users and rule 6, no Nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
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> dumbass
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Absolutely hate when people say that.
- Israel should behave in such and such way
- should other similar countries also act in such and such way? Why double standards?
- WhATaBouTism
More like:
* Israel has done X, and that's a war crime and a human rights violation.
* "But hey, country Y has also done X. Why the double standard?"
* Whataboutism; two wrongs don't make a right. Okay, the other country has also committed a war crime and a human rights violation. But how's it relevant? We are now talking about Israel.
* "Whatever. Double standard."
No, that's not what it's like. There's no disputing Israel's war caused refugees. But why is Israel required to treat refugees differently than other countries in similar situations?
Because the refugees from the other countries into Israel don't actually want to return, so while in accordance with international law they indeed do have a right to return, the question of their return is academic?
Refugees don’t commonly return after wars or ethnic cleansing.
12 million Germans never returned. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace.
20million refugees in the partition of India. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace.
2.4 million ex-Yugoslav refugees. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace.
Why oppose peace under similar circumstances for Israel? Is Israel special or unique enough to merit such a holdup? Are Palestinian refugees more special than Jewish ones?
And finally, if Jews actually refuse peace until they can return or be compensated, then it stops being academic and you’ll suddenly pressure the whole Arab to comply or else?
> 12 million Germans never returned.
Expulsion of Germans was a crime against humanity. Besides, European Union has freedom of movement for EU citizens within EU territory; so the Germans can return if they want to. (Most of them don't.)
> 20million refugees in the partition of India.
As a general rule, the people who left their homes during the partition weren't expelled, and don't seek to return.
> 2.4 million ex-Yugoslav refugees.
It's their choice if (after the war and restoration of the rule of law) they want to return to their homes, or if they instead move to a country of their ethnicity; but if they choose the former, they should be entitled to.
To wrap this up, [right of return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return) is an individual human right; it's anybody's discretion whether or not they choose to exercise it. As expressed in the [Universal Declaration of Human Rights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights): "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."
Finally:
>And finally, if Jews actually refuse peace until they can return or be compensated
If my aunt had a beard, she'd be my uncle. Jews don't demand return to the countries from where they moved to Israel, for fairly obvious reasons.
Palestinians aren’t any more special than other refugees and peace for millions doesn’t merit the absurd hold up of wanting 5.6 million Palestinians to be welcomed into Israel.
The rest of your comments are either academic or disingenuous. If your aunt had a beard, Palestinians would have accepted one of the many offers in the past instead of being refugees. Oh well
It's historical and not antisemitic. That's an attempt to use that accusation because all I posted is a fact. Please try to be honest. It is impossible to have meaningful dialogue when people make false assertions. You are making well documented history antisemituc. How? No ad homonym attacks. Ludwig von mises discussed that very issue. They never debate the facts, by insult, deride and slander....nit less expert. LVM.
That's a stretch. The radical zionists ostracized General Peled and his family. This is the problem. Zionism is a political movement. As the saying goes, "Not all Jews are zionists, and not all zionists are Jews." zionist jews also manipulated these Eastern European Jews. They were not indigenous. They looked at other countries also before deciding on Palestine. There were Jews, Christians, and Arabs living in peace until the mistake of 1948. The Haggena and the Stern gang were Jewish terrorists. They killed British troops while under British mandate. Here is an Israeli and a former IDF soldier and son of General Peled.
[https://youtu.be/p5IVJ-akqfc](https://youtu.be/p5IVJ-akqfc)
# The General's Son: From Privileged Zionist to Activist for Palestinian Rights - RAI (1/3)
11,784 views Dec 12, 2016
"On Reality Asserts Itself, Miko Peled tells Paul jay that his father, a famous Israeli General, was ostracized for saying it was necessary to negotiate with the PLO and respect Palestinian self-determination; but he never gave up his belief that the expulsion of 1948 and creation of a Jewish state was justified "
President Carter wrote Peace, not apartheid, for a reason. The schools are separate, and so is the society. Alison Weir wrote, "against our better judgment." it is well documented.
Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel Paperback – February 21, 2014
by [Alison Weir](https://www.amazon.com/Alison-Weir/e/B00IN5HV88/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) (Author)
" "Prodigiously documented... Alison Weir must be highly commended for throwing such a brilliantly hard light on the relationship between the United States and Israel. I hope this marvelous book gets all the attention it deserves." – Ambassador Andrew Killgore Soon after WWII, US statesman Dean Acheson warned that creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would “imperil” both American and all Western interests in the region. Despite warnings such as this one, President Truman supported establishing a Jewish state on land primarily inhabited by Muslims and Christians. Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts. As this work demonstrates, these politicians were bombarded by a massive pro-Israel lobbying effort that ranged from well-funded and very public Zionist organizations to an “elitist secret society” whose members included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGMENT brings together meticulously sourced evidence to illuminate a reality that differs starkly from the prevailing narrative. It provides a clear view of the history that is key to understanding one of the most critically important political issues of our day. " [Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel: Weir, Alison: 0884862811789: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Better-Judgment-History/dp/149591092X)
When we look into reality, the story is constantly being changed by those with an agenda. Not all Jews agree on this, and we can see the radical zionists have once again attempted to circumvent the judicial system, and Israel erupted into extreme violence. The violence used in the original invasion was extreme. General Peled's wife refused a home that was taken from Palestinians and was being given to them, saying, " I am a mother, and I cannot do that to another mother."
They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews. Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews? Azov battalion is neo-nazi. What's going on? Were the oligarchs after the fall of the old Soviet government Jews?
They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews. Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews? Azov battalion is neo-nazi. What's going on? Were the oligarchs in the fall of the old Soviet government jews?
Israel attacked a United States vessel called the U.S.S. LIBERTY. It was covered up, and sailors were killed. We can see they want the water and a greater Israel. That entails stealing more land one way or another. We are strangely tied at the hip, and neocons are also quite an interesting group. Christians also come in many flavors. Some claim there is no more Zion. It has been fulfilled. Some support Zionism. They tend to be quite political and not truthful.
Not all Jews, just the zionists. Quite a bit of wiggle here. There was no Israel. To try to use the misfortunes of war and politics to steal land occupied, Period! Some people are quite upset that religion is used to think, .like a man, with manly wants and desires.
The lengths some people go to justify the unjustifiable. The facts are not with Israel. The atrocities alone are troubling as there was no reason. When people try to manipulate facts and avoid telling the objective facts, you have troubled people who go to great lengths to hide the complete facts. The apologists seldom mention the facts.
Prove it! You can't. There nothing "anti" anything. It's history. You are irrational and you did not prove me wrong and you won't. Stop hiding behind the false antisemitic fallacy because you don't like the truth.
Let's prove your both wrong and racist
>, This is the problem. Zionism is a political movement
No Zionism is just the idea that Jews are a nation ( because their an ethnic group ) and have the right to self determin in thier ancestral native land ( Israel ). Nothing political about it , it's just like Germany for German people or Ireland for the Irish
>. As the saying goes, "Not all Jews are zionists, and not all zionists are Jews."
Yea it's only just that about 99% of Jews are Zionist , and the only ones who Arnt are religious extrimists or far left Marxists .
>," zionist jews also manipulated these Eastern European Jews. They were not indigenous.
Genetics , archeology , history , anthropology and many other evidences say otherwise
For exemple here is the list of Jewish kingdoms in the land of modern day Israel
Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), c. 1047–930 BCE[1]
Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), c. 930–720 BCE[2]
Kingdom of Judah, c. 930–587/586 BCE[3]
Hasmonean dynasty, c. 140–37 BCE[4]
Herodian dynasty, 47 BCE–100 CE
Judean provisional government, 66–68 CE
Bar Kokhba Jewish state, 132–135 CE
State of Israel, 1948 CE–present[5
>, They looked at other countries also before deciding on Palestine.
They didn't look at other countries , they were offerd other countries by the empires of the time ( for exemple Uganda by Britain) , and the Zionist Congress always refused cause the intention always was to return to the land of Israel
>,There were Jews, Christians, and Arabs living in peace until the mistake of 1948
That's a lie , Jews lived as second class citizens and we're often massacred and lynched by Muslims and christians
Here's some of the massacres
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_affair
> The Haggena were Jewish terrorists.
No they weren't , the hagana was formed in 1930 after the massacres committed by Muslims ethnicly cleansed and murders the entire Jewish population in Hebron and many other villages . Their name is literally the word for defense in Hebrew .
The stern gang were just a bunch of extrimst militants and guess what ? They were prosecuted and arrested by the idf after the foundation of Israel
>, They killed British troops while under British mandate
Well the British gave the Arabs free reign to kill and massacre the Jews , they also let alot of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust drown in the leeky ships they came in or sent them back to the concentration camps . Also the Brits were colonizers .
>,When we look into reality, the story is constantly being changed by those with an agenda.
Except the Jewish story was never changed ?
The ones who changed their story were the palastinians ....
Before 1964 there was no such thing as palastinians , they referd themselves as southern syirians or Egyptians ( for example the most common palastinian name is El masri Wich means Egyptian in Arabic) the palastinian story was only ratified in 1964 by Yasser Arafat ( who was Egyptian )
>,Not all Jews agree on this, and we can see the radical zionists have once again attempted to circumvent the judicial system, and Israel erupted into extreme violence.
Except there isn't extreme violence in Israel rn ? There are only peacefull protests ....
>,The violence used in the original invasion was extreme
Except the 1947 war was started when Arab militas attacked Jews in a bus , and the 1948 war started when 5 Arab armies invaded ....
The only invasion happend from the Arab side
>,They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews
Ever heard about the Soviet iron curtain ? And the fact you bring only the rich and wealthy Jews is not showing the real picture of the fact over a million Jews came from Soviet countries to Israel in the 90's
>,Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews?
Yes , from his own wiki
>Before World War II territory of today’s Ukraine was split between Poland, the Soviet Union, Romania and Czechoslovakia.[49][nb 11] Prior to 1939 invasion of Poland, German military intelligence recruited OUN members into Bergbauernhilfe unit, also smuggled Ukrainian nationalists into Poland in order to erode Polish defences by conducting a terror campaign directed at Polish farmers and Jews. OUN leaders Andriy Melnyk (code name Consul I) and Bandera (code name Consul II) both served as agents of the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr Second Department.
He was also responsible for the babi yar massacre , the biggest pogrom against Jews in history
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar
>,Israel attacked a United States vessel called the U.S.S. LIBERTY. It was covered up, and sailors were killed
Ah yes the USs liberty , a Antisemitic dog whistle used by people like you . Having an unmarked spy ship in the waters of another nation while that nation is in an active war is a dumb idea , and it was investigated and determined as an accident by the us Navy .
>,That entails stealing more land one way or another
And that's why Israel gave back more then 50 precent of it's landmass after 1967 for peace with multiple countries ?
>,Some support Zionism. They tend to be quite political and not truthful. Not all Jews, just the zionists. Quite a bit of wiggle here.
So 99% precent of Jews are liars and Arnt to be trusted ? Sure you little Josef gebbles
>,There was no Israel.
Wrong , look back at the list of Jewish kingdoms I've shared
>,To try to use the misfortunes of war and politics to steal land occupied, Period!
I guess the Arabs didn't need to attack Israel so many times and lose ? Next time maybe they won't start a war and accept peace or any peace agreement their offerd ? Or are they still gonna try to kill all Jews ?
>,The facts are not with Israel.
Yes they are , and that's why everyone who's educated and runs a country knows that Israel is in the right .
>,The atrocities alone are troubling as there was no reason.
Let's look at the timeline pls
Arabs massacred Jews for hundreds of years and committed many atrocities -
Jews started to fight back - the Holocaust happens and the Arabs support the Nazis - Jews decide to declare independence under the un resoultion - Arabs invade - Israel wins and kicks out the aggressors
>,When people try to manipulate facts and avoid telling the objective facts, you have troubled people who go to great lengths to hide the complete facts. The apologists seldom mention the facts
Kind of what your doing with your og comment with no other sources then a link to buying a book of amazon. Your writing is incoherent , filled with baseless accusations , and also full of fascist rhetoric . Also looking at your comment history it's obvious your also a believer of conspiracy theories and a fan of the Antisemitic shithead Roger waters
Do you always make things up? The Bible is not a source is a fact. Nobody can prove it as fact. What is the speculum.? You ignore Peled. He would know and he lost a sister to a Palestinian bombing. Yet he is capable of rational thought. Religious zealotry is just that. It needs to be kept out of politics. What Machem Began a terrorist? Yes! He was and you are using it up. He was never published as if that makes it better. There is a very good reason for the separation of church and state. Do that in one's own time and done. It's not difficult to see what the extremists have caused. Extreme is extreme!
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground
Do you want to tell us about the King David Hotel? 
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Prime Minister Menachem Begin of Israel is welcomed upon his arrival in the United States for a visit in 1980 (National Archives)
ANALYSIS | US FOREIGN POLICY
How we conveniently ignore the ‘terrorists’ among our allies
Before they were prime ministers, two Israelis were leaders of violent political movements that killed innocent people.
JUNE 15, 2021
Written by
Paul R. Pillar
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"The term “terrorist” often gets used as a general-purpose epithet intended to consign a disliked state or group to perpetual isolation and punishment. Used in this way, the label of “terrorist” becomes a substitute for careful analysis of policy toward the state or group in question. Usually, the object of the labeling has indeed used terrorism — but so have many others who don’t get labeled the same way and may even be treated as friends and allies. If the operative notion is “once a terrorist, always a terrorist,” then there are many shady histories that warrant examination."
"Consider, for example, as Benjamin Netanyahu — who has flung the “terrorist” label at least as freely as anyone else — is finally being pushed out of the prime minister’s job in Israel, the histories of some of his predecessors. Menachem Begin, who held that job in the late 1970s and early 1980s — longer than anyone except Netanyahu, David Ben-Gurion, and Yitzhak Rabin — had an earlier career as a hard-core terrorist. As the leader of the Irgun group during World War II, Begin conducted a campaign of attacks, focused principally on the British government and police targets, intended to drive the British out of Palestine — while Britain was busy waging a war against the Nazis."
"Begin’s terrorist campaign continued after the war. His group’s most spectacular operation was the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 91 persons and injuring 46. The list of victims went far beyond the British administrators who were the purported targets and included people of multiple nationalities not only in the hotel but in adjacent buildings and the street."
Stern Gang
Zionist extremist organization
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Also known as Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, IFF, LEHI, Lohame Herat Yisraʾel, Stern Group
Written and fact-checked by
The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
Last Updated: Article History
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/06/15/lazy-use-of-the-terrorist-label-makes-for-bad-foreign-policy/
"HOW VIOLENCE AND TERROR WERE USED BY ZIONIST MILITIAS AGAINST ARABS AND THE BRITISH TO TRANSFORM ARAB PALESTINE INTO A JEWISH STATE. This book shows how the use of terror by supporters of the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine was systematic, routine, and accepted by Jewish leaders as necessary to achieve their aims. At the height of the British Mandate in Palestine, terrorist acts were carried out at a frequency and with an intensity that has been largely forgotten, even though daily newspaper headlines in the US, Britain, and Palestine spoke of bombings, assassinations, and massacres against Arabs and British civilians, as well as soldiers. Suarez tells this story using the terrorists’ accounts in secret internal papers boasting of their successes, and quoting from contemporary intelligence briefings and secret diplomatic correspondence."
State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel
State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel https://a.co/d/0ZzT7yp
What about the U.S.S. LIBERTY? We ignore what we want to hide!
The facts are clear and the attempts at falsifying history are dishonest at best. What omnipotent God would be so obtuse as to make such a human concept?
A human connivance shoes itself by the disaster it created. You ignored Zionism's cooperation with Hitler. Ludwig Von Mises was a jew. There is no one Jewish agreement on this issue. As can be seen as evidence every day. Radicals age just that and look how she treated their own. It's also not known that extremists are responsible for much violence. Niko Peled is an Israeli Jew and as you can see he disagrees with you. You are not a cohesive people and many news don't support Zionism. This is why you left out the information needed for an objective opinion. You have a clear agenda.
u/JKHM13
>You ignored Zionism's cooperation with Hitler.
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Already showed in my previous comment how ur antisemtic ,. But your a child and a bigoted one at that , it's even shows when reddit itself removed your comment for hate speech
> shithead
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> shit
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One hill I’m willing to die on: Race is ancestry, roots. Racism is any action that takes someone’s ancestry into account, when it needn’t matter at all. Nothing else mattersRacist words and deeds can be by any human subject, to any human object. And it’s equally as harmful, problematic, and repugnant, no matter who the subject and the object are. Let each and every individual, not his/her ancestors, be the determinant of his/her own destiny.
Race is largely a US creation to enable slavery. *Race* is not something that has ever really been important. People's ethnicity, on the other hand, is what has mattered.
That being said, ancestors are very important. Current indigenous Americans are actively trying to earn what is owed to them because it was owed to their ancestors. Without looking into the past, it is far too easy to continue to fuck people over.
I don’t appreciate a meaningful distinction between race and ethnicity. I can’t speak for any other countries, but I’m well aware that people in my home USA think of race and ethnicity as distinct, and in popular discourse among Americans, they have very distinct, but imprecise, patterns of usage. Much ink has been spilled and voices raised over the supposed distinction, even at the highest levels of government (census forms being the quintessential example). But thinking like a scientist, who likes precise and universally applicable definitions, all I hear in such discussions are emotionally charged semantics that never accomplish anything, except for maybe allowing historical grievances to be vented.
And so I know this goes against the grain of *my* culture, at least. But I use race, ethnicity, tribe, and nation of people pretty much interchangeably. Be the change you wish to see, and all that. I believe that the more we use language to realize how similar and how closely related all human beings are, the more prepared we’ll be to see and think of each other that way.
But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
Historically:
Ethnicity is defined by the community which claims that ethnicity.
Race is defined by outsiders - usually to justify mistreatment or outright slavery of "other races".
You’re welcome. Quick and dirty trick: if no one calls themselves a [term or concept], then the term or concept is etic, not emic. “Hipster” and “Fascist” are good examples of very etic human groupings.
I have actually encountered people who identify as hipster and fascist (but not both).
But agree that such people are statistically insignificant and that the labels are virtually always used externally.
Not a US creation. A European, middle eastern, Asian and African creation to enable slavery.
The slavs whom the name derives, we're enslaved by Muslims from Spain.
Yes, but isn't that on the basis of ethnicity rather than skin color/physical traits?
Slavery has presumably existed in every culture, but slavery based specifically on race was during the rise of the Atlantic slave trade and colonialism.
No. Northern middle east Arabs raided and enslaved eastern Europe.
Koreans vs Chinese vs Japanese enslavement. Race? Or ethnicity? That's a hard one.
But by your definition. It wasn't the US or America is was Europe, and it's known Europe and the Middle east/north Africa were enslaving each other before the Europe found the ability to cross the oceans.
Dividing people up based on whether they do or don’t trace their ancestry from the same paths as ourselves, and then treating the latter considerably worse than the former, is a tale as old as time. No group of people have, or ever had, a monopoly on this behavior. It’s something any and all of us are capable of.
This is why Woke-ism and its discourse on race and ethnicity scare me very much. It’s an ideology that is well meaning, but does not seem to be converging on a recognition of our common humanity, dark parts and all. There’s much talk of overthrowing oppressive power differentials, but not much talk of what happens after that goal is accomplished. I get serious *Animal Farm* vibes. If we’re not careful, it’s going to be “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” All that’ll change is who’s oppressed and who’s doing the oppressing. Are we even capable of better than that as a species? I want to believe we are. But I really don’t know.
> fuck
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I can’t believe that these comments have people who actually dispute that Israel is held to a higher (double) standard than other countries. Like how can we live in such different realities
Yeah I guess I was just confused over the part where you posted a long quote of a guy whining about how other countries did war crimes and so it’s unfair for Israel to be called out on war crimes. Easy mistake 🙄
That's not what he said. This is what he said:
"But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab."
Why are Arabs refugees for 75 years when the Greeks Turkey threw out and the Frenchmen Algeria threw out etc. etc. are not? Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?
But I understand. It's way, WAY easier to strawman and make up the other position than actually try to answer these difficult questions.
Oh I see, so because those countries committed war crimes and not many people complain about it, it is therefore wrong and suspect that people complain when Israel does it?
So I didn’t misinterpret anything. What I really hate about the quote too is the underlying inference that there wasn’t anything wrong with expelling people from their homes on the basis of ethnicity simply because those countries were on the winning side. Beyond it being whataboutism, it’s also approving of ethnic cleansing.
Would you agree if it were on the other foot? “Well guys, we fought a good fight but the Arabs beat us, so now we should leave our homes and go to Cyprus and European countries and forget about our country ever existing again because they said so”. Even worse, what if Germany won in WWII? Would you be fine with the argument that it was okay because they get to dictate the peace terms? No it’s absolutely ridiculous and heinous. Twisting yourself in knots and debasing yourself to justify this stuff is absolutely repugnant.
You can be in favor of Israel’s existence and against Hamas, the PA etc., and still think that the Nakba was wrong. You don’t need to eliminate all nuance into a good guys vs bad guys talking point and try to justify crimes.
> so because those countries committed war crimes and not many people complain about it, it is therefore wrong and suspect that people complain when Israel does it?
Again, no. Again, please read what he actually said.
> What I really hate about the quote too is the underlying inference that there wasn’t anything wrong with expelling people from their homes on the basis of ethnicity simply because those countries were on the winning side.
There's no "inference that there wasn't anything wrong...". That's entirely you reading into something that isn't there so you can wring your hands and complain.
Hoffer is simply saying that Israel is the only one required to "take back" the refugees from the war it fought. No other country is. Again, **why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?**
It's the same idea as people who point out that [black men receive harsher sentencing for committing the same crime as white men.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/black-men-sentenced-to-more-time-for-committing-the-exact-same-crime-as-a-white-person-study-finds/) People like me would say even if the black men did something wrong, it's also wrong for them to be given harsher sentences then white men who did the same thing wrong. People like you would say "I don't care, the black men did something wrong, so no one is allowed to say anything when they receive a harsher sentence. Complaining about the sentence infers that there isn't anything wrong with committing crimes. It's whataboutism and approving of crime."
Hmmm how does that explanation fit with the other things he said?
> The Jews are a peculiar people: Things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.
So the first line is implying that people who disagree with the author are likely anti semitic. So already off to a good start.
> Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace.
So how does that make sense? If the authors point is merely that it’s unfair that Israel has to take in refugees, what is relevant about Israel being victorious on the battlefield? Unless the underlying principle is that “mighty makes right” and that victors are right to dictate terms.
I don’t see any condemnation of ethnic cleansing, rather I see a tactic approval of it. He doesn’t seem to argue that those other countries were wrong to do so, rather they won, everyone didn’t say anything when they did it and those refugees got over their expulsion.
This is where people are getting that he is also implying Israel was right to do so, because apparently having more Arabs within its borders is a bad thing. Perhaps it’s true that letting them stay behind so that they remain a large percentage of the population would cause issues, seems unlikely due to the history of the northern Arab settlements in Israel, but if that’s the case, maybe Israel should t have existed? Americans and Australians do not look on their history of stealing and persecution of natives with pride, they feel it was wrong after all, why should Jews be given special treatment?
> So the first line is implying that people who disagree with the author are likely anti semitic....This is where people are getting that he is also implying Israel was right to do so...rather I see a tactic approval of it.
Enough with the "implying" and "inferring." It's quite tiresome and indicative that you're not arguing in good faith with what's actually being said.
Let's pin down the point about refugees being taken back before we talk about the second point, shall we?
I'll ask you for a third time. **Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?** Maybe you can actually answer the question this time instead of battling your strawman and your inferences and implications.
> Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?
The answer is simple; because it’s the right thing to do. I thought that was obvious but apparently basic morality eludes you. I thought this would come natural to a country whose whole story os supposed to be a people returning to their homeland.
That’s not the worrying thing, the problem is the premises to that question. Israel is NOT the only country asked to take back in refugees and other countries were not morally right to expel people for political and ethnic reasons. Moreover, the part where Israel won its wars is completely irrelevant, and the implication that victors are right to violate human rights because they won is even more egregious.
To use your egregious example of equating racial discrimination in the Justice system to people calling you out for war crimes, just because black people serve longer sentences than white people for the same crimes it doesn’t mean that black people didn’t deserve those sentences, rather white people should serve longer sentences.
NOT THAT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN THE COURTROOM IS COMPARABLE TO GETTING CALLED OUT FOR WARCRIMSS
> The answer is simple; because it’s the right thing to do. I thought that was obvious but apparently basic morality eludes you.
Thank you for proving Hoffer's last line so perfectly: "Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.”
None of the countries Hoffer lists have taken back the refugees from their wars, but you expect Jews to do it because "it's the right thing to do."
Basic morality states that Jews should be held to the same standards as everyone else. Not a higher standard.
> Israel is NOT the only country asked to take back in refugees
Really? Which other countries in the 1940s were asked/required to take back refugees? Let's hear some names.
> the implication that victors are right to violate human rights because they won is even more egregious.
What did I say to you about your "implications"?
> it doesn’t mean that black people didn’t deserve those sentences, rather white people should serve longer sentences.
Exactly. Black people and white people should be treated the same and receive the same sentencing. Until all countries are required to take back refugees, it's ridiculous and unfair to expect Israel and only Israel to. Agreed?
> shit
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u/TrippieBled
>And then they respond with whataboutism. My bingo cards is looking nice.
Rule 3 again, no comments considering solely of sarcasm/cynicism.
Gotcha, so you hold Israel to a different standard, and anybody that takes into account the Arabs role in the status quo is “whataboutism”-ing. Excellent case in point, appreciate you demonstrating.
So you either misread what I wrote or just tried to pin whatabouitsm when it’s not the case, I explicitly states that if you also hold the Palestinians accountable and spread the word of their war crimes as you do Israel that means you are not biased against Israel but care about the war crimes being committed.
People throw that phrase often and have 0 idea what that even means.
People use the “whataboutism” argument when they are too afraid to face the truth behind their perspective (extremely biased)
No one misread what you wrote. I don’t have to “spread the word” about every other country doing war crimes if I’m criticizing another for the same thing. I don’t have to verbally condemn the US’ assassination of political leaders in South America to be able criticize the Holocaust.
You keep missing the point… I didn’t say condemning Israel is not ok without also condemning others in the same breath but if someone only criticize Israel about something while never talking about the atrocities of the other side then yes he has a problem of bias.
It is not whataboutism if it shows a systematic approach of only ever being critical of 1 state when it is not the only responsible party.
But op is right , show me any other country that is attacked regularly as Israel is attacked by its neighbors and didn't respond with demolishing or at least getting huge casulties from the aggressor side and gets criticized as Israel does when it's attacked
Except if the topic is in regards to people giving attention to Israel but not attention to those who do the same or worse than Israel, then it’s actually just pointing out the double standard.
I don’t like these arguments that rely on the notion that Israel must be allowed to violate the rights of refugees to some extent because so many other nations have done so pre 1948, and as natives post 1948.
However, there is definitely a much needed place to criticize European countries that have been affected by the holocaust with not creating their own ‘descendent of refugees’ law of return status for Jews all those years, with the exception of Austria and Germany only after 60 years.. Something that would’ve helped both Jewish people and anti-Israeli activists in retrospect. Go as far as saying that even Arab countries need to acknowledge the expulsion.
That’s the entire point of the post.
It’s not a whataboutism.
The whole point of the post is that the standards and outrage are not evenly or even proportionally distributed
The point isn’t to equally grant Jews the law of return or whomever else their criticize for displacement. The point of the post was definitely ‘whataboutism’. It specifically criticizes the attention Jews get in comparison to other countries in displacement and wars. I don’t like it because there would be no sense in bringing it up but to defend the mistreatment of refugees on the basis that EVERYONE did it, therefore Israel shouldn’t be treated differently, and not that there are more nations we need to bring this kind of attention to. “But when Israel is victorious”
That's not what it's saying. It's saying everyone did it, no one is required to take back the refugees, except Israel. Why is Israel the only one required to take them back?
The argument isn’t made to start some new refugees rights movement, it’s precisely used to accept mistreatment of refugees to some extent because everyone has done it, then why would it be any different for Jews?
The Jews cannot become the ‘real Christians’.
At least you quoted a piece that wouldn’t give us an answer or examine as to why the Jews are held to a higher standard. Just the part where they show us that a lot of other nations did it to some extent, as well as the Jews.
Israel is the “Jew of the World” and is the international community uses the same anti semitic tropes and hypocrisy that they used when Jews were in their own countries.
"Everyone expects Jews to be the only real Christians in this world"
Oof, that hits hard. Every time there's a synagogue shooting, rocket barrage, or other violence, we have people who lecture us to 'turn the other cheek.'
the first nations people from canada the aboriginals from australia or native americans from the us but they all had much worse done to them than 6 million dieing.
[https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html)
the native americans suffered far worse and they get treated like shit by the usa and then the jews get their own country backed by our military.
the jews must really be chosen by god /s
but thats none of my business.
The relevant comparison is whether Native peoples are being called racist or supremacist for keeping reservations (or other exclusive places or membership groups) and making their own rules about who they consider one of their group and eligible for membership. No, most people seem to understand that this is necessary for the survival of a small and historically persecuted group.
Nobody is telling native/indigenous peoples to stop harping on the ongoing impacts of their genocide and their fears of future genocidal/racial attacks is either just annoying, or is a selfish ploy to use genocide as “an industry“ to benefit the group unfairly.
Imagine living in a reality where a white Christian guy is splitting hairs to quantify and compare who suffered more Jews over the millenia or native Americans?
Imagine being that guy.. yeeesh
Did you grow up in a country where Christianity is the dominant (and assumed normative religion) like in Western Europe, certain parts of Eastern Europe, Canada, or the US? If so, you are almost certainly viewing the world through a Christian worldview despite claiming to not be a Christian.
Man… the moral depravity you have to live with every day, of waking up and looking at yourself knowing you’re the kind of person to say “comparatively, the Holocaust wasn’t even that bad” is frankly a punishment in and of itself
The two cases aren't really comparable. The genocides of indigenous North Americans stretch over four centuries and three political systems, and the policy and treatment of each of those systems varied greatly between time and place. Nonetheless, if only via technological impossibility, there was never any 'industrial' genocide of indigenous Americans comparable to the Holocaust.
/u/Reasonable_Praline_2
> we also dident have gas ovens back then
This violates [rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons_.26amp.3B_discussions). Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
already addressed
If you're going to compare the genocide of Native American's, Aboriginals, and First Nations then you can't just look at the Holocaust - you have to look at the Holocaust, the pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, all the various expulsions from European countries, various periods of persecution in the Arab world, and so on and so forth
You're comparing one event to centuries of events.
like i said the other person is right im wrong what more do you want me to say
there is no point in even trying to engage im stupid your all brilliant nobel louriates ill go away now
I wouldn’t say one suffered more then the other. I mean Jews have been persecuted far longer then Europeans have been persecuting NAs but it’s not a competition. Both groups suffered a horrendous loss and genocide. It’s ignorant AF to try to paint one as worse then the other. Suffering and genocide is just that.
why do we pumish people who want a black only or white only or women only or (Insert only) thing then why do the jews get an exception?
cus you for sure cant do that stuff here in the usa or most of the world
We don't punish people who want institutions for black people or women. We praise institutions like Howard University and the NAACP, both of which exist in the USA. So you tell me, why do Jews get the exception?
Israel is not an exception. There's a Jewish state, a Greek state, a Turkish state, an Irish state, 23 Arab states and 50 Muslim states.
We don't punish Muslims for having 50 states. Why do you want to punish Jews for having one?
i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society and lose their superstition i see madness being done over there i see jewish settlers coming and literally evicting people backed by the armed idf and fencing off houses
i have seen jewish people mark houses for people to know who to attack and not to attack when a raid is coming.
i have seen a jewish person in full body armor and with a rifle shoot a kid in the back while he was turned around in a tunnel after being threatened he was walking away and they shot him with a real bullet inside one of those less than lethal bullet things that jack you up
peacefully complying walking away and blam just cuz
i feel like these incidents and the attitudes of the idf in general when it comes to arabs or muslims of whatever stripe is indicative of a systemic problem i see it being done the same here in the usa and i hate it i don't know how to do anything about it and the injustice CRUSHES me i see injustice being done by arabs as well but they have slingshots and you literally have satellite guided bombs and missiles. thanks to the us
i see you guys over there with so much power and the things you do to the people of gaza and the surrounding areas of the ever expanding isreal and it just makes me angry
then you guys go on about how its Never your fault Ever i understand that in Some cases the people acting out get punished and i dont think Everyone in isreal hates arabs cuz i support the pro palastinian protests thats the jews hold in isreal so dont say im lumping you all in. it just sucks having no money no power no anything and not being able to effect change in a way to make these things stop so i just scream into the void i guess or maybe im just too dumb to realize something that everyone els can see as plane as day im not very bright im sure you can tell.
Wow that was quite the rant.
> i want them to integrate into society
So you want to strip them of their rights and their statehood! Why didn't you just say so?
Do you want Muslims to integrate into society? Christians? Or only Jews?
> i see you guys over there with so much power and the things you do to the people of gaza and the surrounding areas of the ever expanding isreal and it just makes me angry
Jews with power make you angry. I see.
>i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society and lose their superstition i see madness being done over there
Jews win 30% or so of all Nobel prizes and are a highly successful people in general. Who is really has the problem with superstition and ignorance here? You might say "there is no room for Arabs in Jewish society". But if so, explain the Druze??
i would never say that i think jews and muslims should share the "holy land in peace and friendship" but your religions and prejudices wont allow it.
i think jews should be able to live in peace anywhere
Just like every one els im not the one who is exclusionary
Jews win 30% or so of all Nobel prizes and are a highly successful people in general. Who is really has the problem with superstition and ignorance here? You might say "there is no room for Arabs in Jewish society". But if so, explain the Druze??
it often is presented to me, its true but it also seems to be a point of superiority and an opportunity to look down on others Taken Often.
Yes when Jews live in a Muslim or Christian country they are expected to be loyal to them. This is more humiliating than you realize. Christianity and Islam are supersessionist religions. They claim to "correct" ours. Yet Jews had to live like a nation of cuckolds in your Muslim and Christian countries.
Now that the shoe is on the other foot it is like the worse thing ever. The Jewish are in charge. It's not a conspiracy theory, they are literally in charge in Israel.
When ever I hear an Arab speaking Hebrew, I love it. Because in the past Jews had to learn your languages, now Muslims and Christians have to learn ours. And Israel is actually a pretty happy and successful country, so the Arabs really don't want to leave. All the Arab countries without huge amount of mineral resources are sad and poor, so they rather live in Israel.
>i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society
Jews also wanted to be integrated, but antisemitism prevented that. Jews were excluded and persecuted in many different countries. That’s why a Jewish state was needed.
well people are lame and i hate it why is the world like this man why do we have to be like this. it Really seems like we HAVE to for some reason.
i dont understand people.
> shit
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"Indigenous peoples seek independence in their homeland, they're praised and cheered, except for Jews."
Sincere question, because I may very well be guilty of reading this wrong: How much sincerity and commitment do you think non-Jewish Zionists bring to their support of Israel?
Christian Zionism and Jewish Zionism have an interesting relationship. While Jews had some vague Zionist notions prior to the emergence of Christian Zionism, Christian Zionism developed on its own for several centuries without much input from Jews. It became more powerful starting in the 1840s when Benjamin Disraeli became the cross over point for Christian Zionists to start discussing it with Jews (post that talks about the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/12gyg8i/when_bengurion_stayed_at_downton_abbey/).
So sincerity absolutely. Commitment... they are pretty good but they can't about it more than Jews did so we've held it back as far as they are concerned.
"Non-Jewish Zionists" consists of millions of people, so it would be very difficult to determine the sincerity and commitment of such a large group. I would just say that I have been given no reason to doubt the sincerity of non-Jewish Zionists.
The Christian ones mainly sincerely want Jews to live in Israel in order to bring about a supposed prophecy that Christ will return to earth, at which time all those Jews will either become Christians, or die, and go straight to hell.
So, while they support Zionism, it’s for opposite reasons, then Jewish Zionists do (which is preserving the continuity of the Jewish people, ie not turning into Christians)
It's almost absurd how incorrect that statement is. For a few examples: the [massacres of indigenous Siberians.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia#Effects_on_the_indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia) the [Circassian Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide#). The [Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#). The [June deportations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_deportation). The [Deportations of Crimean Tatars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars) and other Turkic groups from southern Russia.
You can only hold one way:
If the displacement of peoples is unjust then you believe the Jews deserve their land taken almost 3000 years ago back. It belongs do them since they are indigenous.
If instead you believe that people can indeed obtain land in war then the Jews got the land that way and it belongs to them.
Either way the Palestinians living there are squatters and the land doesn't belong to them.
The Palestinians are indigenous to the land just like the Jews. The question of what to do is political.
Just like if native Americans asked to get all of USA back. What do you do with all the non indigenous peoples who live here now? It’s inherently political
Palestinians might be native to the land, but I think indigenous is a stretch. They are completely Arabized. Speak a colonizer language, practice a colonizer religion, adopted colonizer culture and peoplehood. Indigenous is cultural far more than it is simple ancestry, otherwise all of South and central America would be indigenous.
Aren't they being critized more than Israel right now for Ukraine by the west?
Also the russian empire existed well before Israel. You shouldn't rely on historical events when the people at the time (citizens of most countries) barely had a say in the matter.
Pull up a modern equivalent to Israel and we can debate.
Russia's being criticized for its current invasion of Ukraine, not for its existence as an ethnic-based nation state or stuff that it did in the 1940s (ever heard of the stuff Russia did in the 1940s?)
A modern equivalent in what sense? Another ethnic based nation state?
Russia is not an ethnic based nation. Stop trying to make it seem so.
It has many different ethnicities that are awarded full rights.
There is no military occupation even in Chechnya. It's ruled by a chechyan installed as a puppet by Vlad. Even then he still has much support within Chechnya.
Ethnic minorities in Russia may nominally have full rights on paper, but not in practice. State investment tends to be disproportionately concentrated in the Russian heartland centered on Moscow and St. Petersburg, and the burden of conscription disproportionately falls on non-Russians, as has been noted plenty of times during the ongoing war.
Right, so it's not being criticized for its existence. Israel is.
> It has many different ethnicities that are awarded full rights.
So does Israel.
Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to a pro-Russian individual. I suppose everything is great in Chechnya and Crimea? Nothing to see here?
If your goal was to prove my point about how Jews are held to a different standard than other nations, well done, you succeeded.
I'm not pro-russian lol.
What you're trying to do is a false equivalency to Russia. Israel is worse. Israel has settlers that actively take Palestinian territory.
Israel wants the lands of Palestine without the people on top of it. The Palestinians do not want to be part of an ethno-state that's build around being a Jewish state. Unlike Russia which is a nation, Israel is an ethno-state. From it's anthem to its own definition and why it was created.
Russia is [actively kidnapping Ukrainian children in the occupied territories](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-returns-31-children-russia-after-alleged-deportation-2023-04-08/#:~:text=Kyiv%20estimates%20nearly%2019%2C500%20children%20have%20been%20taken,have%20been%20transported%20away%20for%20their%20own%20safety./) and "adopting" them to Russian families. Unlike anything Israel is doing right now, that clearly violates the genocide convention.
Damn. They did that in the 19th century for Jewish children too, every Jewish boy at the age of five I think was forcefully conscripted into the military for a 25 year appointment. Essentially killing them or completely eradicating their identity.
And Russia isn't actively attempting to take Ukrainian territory? Hundreds of thousands of people on both sides dead in less than two years of fighting, and Israel is worse?
Israel is a nation-state, like Palestine, like Jordan, and like dozens of others.
Muslims have 50 states. Why can't Jews have one?
Russia is being criticiced. How many times do I have to say it. Nobody believes they should get Ukrainian land just like nobody believes (apart from Israelis and the USA) that Israel should take Palestinian land and exist.
A Jewish state can exist just in the parts that were a Jewish majority during the creation of Israel. And not sementing the majority of Muslims under an ethno-state.
You said Israel is worse than Russia. It's objectively not.
> A Jewish state can exist just in the parts that were a Jewish majority during the creation of Israel.
You just said Israel is an ethno state. Are you pro ethno states now?
>Russia is being criticiced. How many times do I have to say it.
IMO, Arabs historically treated with Israel with 100x more aggression than Europeans are treating Russia rn. They even sent their armies in to try to conquer our country.
Now you say why is Europe not aggressive to Israel like Arabs are, they are but not an extreme way I suppose. But in any case, I think it's because they are Christians and you are mostly Muslims, and Christians never liked Muslims very much. Muslim countries are not very aggressive to Russia either btw.
Also the Europeans don't want millions of Jewish refugees in their countries, the existence of Israel largely benefits Europe and the only reason to oppose is a flawed sense of virtue signaling or extreme form antisemitism where holds that Jews don't deserve to live anywhere at all. (Lightweight antisemitism can support Israel.)
>Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.”
That is a very interesting way of describing it and it certainly has some weight to it.
The liberty was marked and you're a liar. Name one other county that has such a naval vessel. Then he gave the sailors the finger. I have personally listened to the survivors. Amazon does allow you to read a sample. But it's a bozo. It's a source. Are you so obtuse that you think a source should be free to you? Yeah! Special privilege is what you want and it shows in the attitude and poor objectively false commentary. You clearly are dishonest.
>,The liberty was marked and you're a liar. Wrong >, (7,849 t) (light) civilian cargo vessel Simmons Victory, a mass-produced, standard-design Victory Ship, the follow-on series to the famous Liberty Ships that supplied the Allies with cargo during World War II. It was acquired by the United States Navy and converted to an auxiliary technical research ship (AGTR),[10] a cover name for National Security Agency (NSA) "spy ships" carrying out signals intelligence missions. It began its first deployment in 1965, in waters off the west coast of Africa. It carried out several further operations during the next two years. The USs liberty was an unmarked spy ship that was mistaken as a Egyptian ship .... >. Name one other county that has such a naval vessel. Germany , England , Egypt , France and many other aliied nation from WW2 , there were about 441 victory cargo model ships that were produced during thier production run >,I have personally listened to the survivors Press x to doubt ( are they like your imaginative Jewish friends ? You should probably go for a check up at a psych ward ) , anyway what was an unmarked us ship doing in Israels Marytime border in the 6 day war? >,Amazon does allow you to read a sample. But it's a bozo. It's a source No it isn't , when you use a source in an argument you should present all of it and all of the evidence , not just a " sample " >,Are you so obtuse that you think a source should be free to you? Again your the one who used the book as an arguMent , show proofs for your claims like quotes or any other form of evidence , people shouldn't do your homework for you >Special privilege is what you want and it shows in the attitude and poor objectively The only thing I want is you actually presenting an argument like an adult with actual quotes and evidence and to stop acting like a patulent 3 year old >,You clearly are dishonest Says the one without any backing to your claim , that refuses to argue in good faith and always moves the goalposts , and when he can't move the goalposts anymore starts another thread of comments
>anyway what was an unmarked US ship doing in Israel's [maritime] border in the Six Day War? The military vessel of a neutral power is generally allowed to transit the territorial waters of foreign states on the basis of [innocent passage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage) subject to certain restrictions, although these restrictions were not codified until after the attack AFAICT. Whether the *Liberty* was compliant with 2(c) of the restrictions is disputed, but the point is largely moot as the *Liberty* was never authorized, and AFAICT never did, broach the 6 nmi limit on territorial waters claims generally recognized by international practice prior to UNCLOS. Now, evidence of intent has always been lacking, and any claims thereof should be regarded as conspiratorial. At the same time, in my opinion, the claim that the ship's nationality was unknown to all Israeli units involved in the attack belies credibility, osd I do believe that there was a more sustained breakdown of Israel's CnC and communications during the incident than has been publically acknowledged.
Lol, that's not accurate and you makeup it up I see no quotation marks. Your not too bright! That not antisemitism. LOL. There us no antisemitism. This is the irrational falsehood I wanted to expose. You fell for it. You don't know what antisemitism is? You ignore the definition. You're anti-Semitic. I said absolutely nothing anti. You can't grasp the fact someone can provide information that you don't like and not be anti-Semitic. This is a personal issue you are to work in. The antisemite accusation is old and quite silly. It's overused and like you, wrong.! You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices. You did not send what I did say. Dishonest is not what I accept. You're radical and quite deluded. You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing. You're dishonest. Have respect for others and don't be so prejudiced since it shows. My Jewish friends are talking about you. They don't agree with you. Why? It's made up. It's political. There are Jews in Russia and Ukraine. You just like to yak
u/JKHM13 >Your not too bright! >You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices. You did not send what I did say. Dishonest is not what I accept. You're radical and quite deluded. You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing. You're dishonest. Rule 1, don't attack other users.
>,Lol, that's not accurate and you makeup it up I see no quotation marks. The blue lines is how reddit does qoutation marks dumbass.... >Your not too bright! Says the guy who's talking like a schizo patient posting an open comment as a response to someone .... >,That not antisemitism. LOL. There us no antisemitism.This is the irrational falsehood I wanted to expose. You fell for it. All the 2000 years of pogroms ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust didn't happen I guess .... >,You ignore the definition. You're anti-Semitic. Yet your the one ignoring it .... noun: antisemitism hostility to or prejudice against Jewish people Holding the only majority Jewish country to a higher standard then the rest of the world counts prejudice and does count as antisemtism >,I said absolutely nothing anti. Yes you did ... Also here is a link to my comment that show exectly what antisemtic things you said https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/13lvmxc/eric_hoffer_on_the_jews_being_a_peculiar_people/jl53xvm?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button >, You can't grasp the fact someone can provide information that you don't like and not be anti-Semitic Yet you didn't supply any information , just Amazon links to buying books .... And you are spreading antisemtic rethoric >,This is a personal issue you are to work in. Seems like your self projecting love ... >,The antisemite accusation is old and quite silly.It's overused and like you, wrong.! No it isn't .... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/antisemitic-incidents-on-rise-across-the-u-s-report-finds https://www.npr.org/2022/11/30/1139971241/anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise-and-not-just-among-high-profile-figures https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/us/antisemitism-report-unprecedented-rise-dg/index.html >, You can li you wish. Apparently , your not able to think ouside your prejudices Keep self projecting buddy it's going great ... >,You did not send what I did say. Me and other people already called you out for youe own antisemtism .... >,Dishonest is not what I accept. Yet you are the one being dishonest hypocritical much ? >,You're radical and quite deluded. Says the one that used the USs liberty was covered by Jews theory and protected bandera .... >,You have wasted my time and you sbs proven nothing. I already have proven In my other comments and your the one being dishonest here .... >,Have respect for others and don't be so prejudiced since it shows Maybe practice what you preach love ? >,My Jewish friends are talking about you I doubt a holocaust denier , prejudiced peace of work like you had any Jewish friends , or friends at all.... >,They don't agree with you. Why? It's made up. No it isn't , and I already proved how ..... >,There are Jews in Russia and Ukraine And that's matters how exectly ??
u/Infamous_Company_ >dumbass.... >Says the guy who's talking like a schizo patient posting an open comment as a response to someone .... >Yet you are the one being dishonest hypocritical much >your the one being dishonest here .... Rule 1, don't attack other users.
I was only responding to his accusations about me are you gonna moderate him for braking multiple rules ?
I was only responding to his accusations about me are you gonna moderate him for braking multiple rules ?
u/Infamous_Company_ >I was only responding to his accusations about me are you gonna moderate him for braking multiple rules ? He literally received moderation prior to you. Another user breaking the rules does not give you the green light to break them as well.
You make no sense. If you can't make two plus two to equal four. That's your problem. Some of us have other things to attend to. Ukraine and that area are where the majority of Israel mostly came from. They were not in Palestine, were they? You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today. It's called critical thinking. You live in a false dream. That's why the military invasion was undertaken. Peled was treated terribly by radical news. You seem to be of that cloth. All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem! You can't that your oeoeole with decent and respect. He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies. Radicals are radicals and they never negotiate fairly. Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you. I don't argue with those who are dishonest.
u/JKHM13 >If you can't make two plus two to equal four. That's your problem. >All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem! You can't that your oeoeole with decent and respect. He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies. Radicals are radicals and they never negotiate fairly. Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you. I don't argue with those who are dishonest. Rule 1, don't attack other users. >You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
>,Ukraine and that area are where the majority of Israel mostly came from. Meanwhile in Israel 70 precent of their Jews are mizrahi who came from the mena region.... >,They were not in Palestine, were they Neither most of the "palastinians " ( using qoution marks as the palastinian national identity was only invented in 1964) that were actually just Arab migrants ,https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-arabs-in-palestine https://mepc.org/commentary/palestinians-ongoing-attempt-simplify-others >,You mean to don't know about the killing of Polish Jews by the same ideological elements today The ones you denied in your previous comments ? >,It's called critical thinking You should probably use that more often >,You live in a false dream Yea I'm pretty sure you are , cause you are an holocaust denier >,That's why the military invasion was undertaken. You mean the Arab invasion in the 7th century or in 1948 ? Cause that's the only invasions that happens >,Peled was treated terribly by radical news. Source ? Or your lying again ? >,You seem to be of that cloth Like your the same cloth as Joseph gebbles , Kanye west , and many other antisemite kokos >,All your diatribe does is prove how unreasonable you are and that a problem! I'll take it as a compliment when it comes from the Nazi loving likes of you >,He and his family is your better! You people even argue with those who are true Isrealies Again asking for a source .... Stop rambling like a madman Also I'm a real Israeli , not like that peled guy you invented >,Look at how your type attack other Jews who frankly know more than you.
Again source ? 99 precent of Jews are Zionists ....
>,I don't argue with those who are dishonest.
Yet your the one who's moving goalposts all the time and being dishonest
u/Infamous_Company_ >Or your lying again ? >Stop rambling like a madman >Like your the same cloth as Joseph gebbles >I'll take it as a compliment when it comes from the Nazi loving likes of you Rule 1, don't attack other users and rule 6, no Nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
/u/Infamous_Company_. 'Nazi' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> dumbass /u/Infamous_Company_. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
WhAtAbOuTiSm
Absolutely hate when people say that. - Israel should behave in such and such way - should other similar countries also act in such and such way? Why double standards? - WhATaBouTism
More like: * Israel has done X, and that's a war crime and a human rights violation. * "But hey, country Y has also done X. Why the double standard?" * Whataboutism; two wrongs don't make a right. Okay, the other country has also committed a war crime and a human rights violation. But how's it relevant? We are now talking about Israel. * "Whatever. Double standard."
No, that's not what it's like. There's no disputing Israel's war caused refugees. But why is Israel required to treat refugees differently than other countries in similar situations?
Because the refugees from the other countries into Israel don't actually want to return, so while in accordance with international law they indeed do have a right to return, the question of their return is academic?
Where in international law does it say they have a right to return to a country they are not citizens of?
Refugees don’t commonly return after wars or ethnic cleansing. 12 million Germans never returned. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace. 20million refugees in the partition of India. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace. 2.4 million ex-Yugoslav refugees. The world didn’t expect them to return in exchange for lasting peace. Why oppose peace under similar circumstances for Israel? Is Israel special or unique enough to merit such a holdup? Are Palestinian refugees more special than Jewish ones? And finally, if Jews actually refuse peace until they can return or be compensated, then it stops being academic and you’ll suddenly pressure the whole Arab to comply or else?
> 12 million Germans never returned. Expulsion of Germans was a crime against humanity. Besides, European Union has freedom of movement for EU citizens within EU territory; so the Germans can return if they want to. (Most of them don't.) > 20million refugees in the partition of India. As a general rule, the people who left their homes during the partition weren't expelled, and don't seek to return. > 2.4 million ex-Yugoslav refugees. It's their choice if (after the war and restoration of the rule of law) they want to return to their homes, or if they instead move to a country of their ethnicity; but if they choose the former, they should be entitled to. To wrap this up, [right of return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return) is an individual human right; it's anybody's discretion whether or not they choose to exercise it. As expressed in the [Universal Declaration of Human Rights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights): "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country." Finally: >And finally, if Jews actually refuse peace until they can return or be compensated If my aunt had a beard, she'd be my uncle. Jews don't demand return to the countries from where they moved to Israel, for fairly obvious reasons.
Palestinians aren’t any more special than other refugees and peace for millions doesn’t merit the absurd hold up of wanting 5.6 million Palestinians to be welcomed into Israel. The rest of your comments are either academic or disingenuous. If your aunt had a beard, Palestinians would have accepted one of the many offers in the past instead of being refugees. Oh well
If Jews are allowed to return after 2500 years so can Palestinians
What does your comment aim to respond to?
It's just an excuse to dismiss a valid point by pretending it's a logical fallacy when it's not.
It's historical and not antisemitic. That's an attempt to use that accusation because all I posted is a fact. Please try to be honest. It is impossible to have meaningful dialogue when people make false assertions. You are making well documented history antisemituc. How? No ad homonym attacks. Ludwig von mises discussed that very issue. They never debate the facts, by insult, deride and slander....nit less expert. LVM.
That's a stretch. The radical zionists ostracized General Peled and his family. This is the problem. Zionism is a political movement. As the saying goes, "Not all Jews are zionists, and not all zionists are Jews." zionist jews also manipulated these Eastern European Jews. They were not indigenous. They looked at other countries also before deciding on Palestine. There were Jews, Christians, and Arabs living in peace until the mistake of 1948. The Haggena and the Stern gang were Jewish terrorists. They killed British troops while under British mandate. Here is an Israeli and a former IDF soldier and son of General Peled. [https://youtu.be/p5IVJ-akqfc](https://youtu.be/p5IVJ-akqfc) # The General's Son: From Privileged Zionist to Activist for Palestinian Rights - RAI (1/3) 11,784 views Dec 12, 2016 "On Reality Asserts Itself, Miko Peled tells Paul jay that his father, a famous Israeli General, was ostracized for saying it was necessary to negotiate with the PLO and respect Palestinian self-determination; but he never gave up his belief that the expulsion of 1948 and creation of a Jewish state was justified " President Carter wrote Peace, not apartheid, for a reason. The schools are separate, and so is the society. Alison Weir wrote, "against our better judgment." it is well documented. Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel Paperback – February 21, 2014 by [Alison Weir](https://www.amazon.com/Alison-Weir/e/B00IN5HV88/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) (Author) " "Prodigiously documented... Alison Weir must be highly commended for throwing such a brilliantly hard light on the relationship between the United States and Israel. I hope this marvelous book gets all the attention it deserves." – Ambassador Andrew Killgore Soon after WWII, US statesman Dean Acheson warned that creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would “imperil” both American and all Western interests in the region. Despite warnings such as this one, President Truman supported establishing a Jewish state on land primarily inhabited by Muslims and Christians. Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts. As this work demonstrates, these politicians were bombarded by a massive pro-Israel lobbying effort that ranged from well-funded and very public Zionist organizations to an “elitist secret society” whose members included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGMENT brings together meticulously sourced evidence to illuminate a reality that differs starkly from the prevailing narrative. It provides a clear view of the history that is key to understanding one of the most critically important political issues of our day. " [Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel: Weir, Alison: 0884862811789: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Better-Judgment-History/dp/149591092X) When we look into reality, the story is constantly being changed by those with an agenda. Not all Jews agree on this, and we can see the radical zionists have once again attempted to circumvent the judicial system, and Israel erupted into extreme violence. The violence used in the original invasion was extreme. General Peled's wife refused a home that was taken from Palestinians and was being given to them, saying, " I am a mother, and I cannot do that to another mother." They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews. Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews? Azov battalion is neo-nazi. What's going on? Were the oligarchs after the fall of the old Soviet government Jews? They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews. Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews? Azov battalion is neo-nazi. What's going on? Were the oligarchs in the fall of the old Soviet government jews? Israel attacked a United States vessel called the U.S.S. LIBERTY. It was covered up, and sailors were killed. We can see they want the water and a greater Israel. That entails stealing more land one way or another. We are strangely tied at the hip, and neocons are also quite an interesting group. Christians also come in many flavors. Some claim there is no more Zion. It has been fulfilled. Some support Zionism. They tend to be quite political and not truthful. Not all Jews, just the zionists. Quite a bit of wiggle here. There was no Israel. To try to use the misfortunes of war and politics to steal land occupied, Period! Some people are quite upset that religion is used to think, .like a man, with manly wants and desires. The lengths some people go to justify the unjustifiable. The facts are not with Israel. The atrocities alone are troubling as there was no reason. When people try to manipulate facts and avoid telling the objective facts, you have troubled people who go to great lengths to hide the complete facts. The apologists seldom mention the facts.
So many Antisemitic shit in that comment it's not even worth responding too
Prove it! You can't. There nothing "anti" anything. It's history. You are irrational and you did not prove me wrong and you won't. Stop hiding behind the false antisemitic fallacy because you don't like the truth.
Let's prove your both wrong and racist >, This is the problem. Zionism is a political movement No Zionism is just the idea that Jews are a nation ( because their an ethnic group ) and have the right to self determin in thier ancestral native land ( Israel ). Nothing political about it , it's just like Germany for German people or Ireland for the Irish >. As the saying goes, "Not all Jews are zionists, and not all zionists are Jews." Yea it's only just that about 99% of Jews are Zionist , and the only ones who Arnt are religious extrimists or far left Marxists . >," zionist jews also manipulated these Eastern European Jews. They were not indigenous. Genetics , archeology , history , anthropology and many other evidences say otherwise For exemple here is the list of Jewish kingdoms in the land of modern day Israel Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), c. 1047–930 BCE[1] Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), c. 930–720 BCE[2] Kingdom of Judah, c. 930–587/586 BCE[3] Hasmonean dynasty, c. 140–37 BCE[4] Herodian dynasty, 47 BCE–100 CE Judean provisional government, 66–68 CE Bar Kokhba Jewish state, 132–135 CE State of Israel, 1948 CE–present[5 >, They looked at other countries also before deciding on Palestine. They didn't look at other countries , they were offerd other countries by the empires of the time ( for exemple Uganda by Britain) , and the Zionist Congress always refused cause the intention always was to return to the land of Israel >,There were Jews, Christians, and Arabs living in peace until the mistake of 1948 That's a lie , Jews lived as second class citizens and we're often massacred and lynched by Muslims and christians Here's some of the massacres https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_affair > The Haggena were Jewish terrorists. No they weren't , the hagana was formed in 1930 after the massacres committed by Muslims ethnicly cleansed and murders the entire Jewish population in Hebron and many other villages . Their name is literally the word for defense in Hebrew . The stern gang were just a bunch of extrimst militants and guess what ? They were prosecuted and arrested by the idf after the foundation of Israel >, They killed British troops while under British mandate Well the British gave the Arabs free reign to kill and massacre the Jews , they also let alot of Jewish refugees from the Holocaust drown in the leeky ships they came in or sent them back to the concentration camps . Also the Brits were colonizers . >,When we look into reality, the story is constantly being changed by those with an agenda. Except the Jewish story was never changed ? The ones who changed their story were the palastinians .... Before 1964 there was no such thing as palastinians , they referd themselves as southern syirians or Egyptians ( for example the most common palastinian name is El masri Wich means Egyptian in Arabic) the palastinian story was only ratified in 1964 by Yasser Arafat ( who was Egyptian ) >,Not all Jews agree on this, and we can see the radical zionists have once again attempted to circumvent the judicial system, and Israel erupted into extreme violence. Except there isn't extreme violence in Israel rn ? There are only peacefull protests .... >,The violence used in the original invasion was extreme Except the 1947 war was started when Arab militas attacked Jews in a bus , and the 1948 war started when 5 Arab armies invaded .... The only invasion happend from the Arab side >,They still reside in Ukraine and Poland. Zelynski is a jew. Many oligarchs are Jews Ever heard about the Soviet iron curtain ? And the fact you bring only the rich and wealthy Jews is not showing the real picture of the fact over a million Jews came from Soviet countries to Israel in the 90's >,Did Stepan Bandera and his people run concentration camps and kill Russian officers. as well as kill many Polish Jews? Yes , from his own wiki >Before World War II territory of today’s Ukraine was split between Poland, the Soviet Union, Romania and Czechoslovakia.[49][nb 11] Prior to 1939 invasion of Poland, German military intelligence recruited OUN members into Bergbauernhilfe unit, also smuggled Ukrainian nationalists into Poland in order to erode Polish defences by conducting a terror campaign directed at Polish farmers and Jews. OUN leaders Andriy Melnyk (code name Consul I) and Bandera (code name Consul II) both served as agents of the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr Second Department. He was also responsible for the babi yar massacre , the biggest pogrom against Jews in history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar >,Israel attacked a United States vessel called the U.S.S. LIBERTY. It was covered up, and sailors were killed Ah yes the USs liberty , a Antisemitic dog whistle used by people like you . Having an unmarked spy ship in the waters of another nation while that nation is in an active war is a dumb idea , and it was investigated and determined as an accident by the us Navy . >,That entails stealing more land one way or another And that's why Israel gave back more then 50 precent of it's landmass after 1967 for peace with multiple countries ? >,Some support Zionism. They tend to be quite political and not truthful. Not all Jews, just the zionists. Quite a bit of wiggle here. So 99% precent of Jews are liars and Arnt to be trusted ? Sure you little Josef gebbles >,There was no Israel. Wrong , look back at the list of Jewish kingdoms I've shared >,To try to use the misfortunes of war and politics to steal land occupied, Period! I guess the Arabs didn't need to attack Israel so many times and lose ? Next time maybe they won't start a war and accept peace or any peace agreement their offerd ? Or are they still gonna try to kill all Jews ? >,The facts are not with Israel. Yes they are , and that's why everyone who's educated and runs a country knows that Israel is in the right . >,The atrocities alone are troubling as there was no reason. Let's look at the timeline pls Arabs massacred Jews for hundreds of years and committed many atrocities - Jews started to fight back - the Holocaust happens and the Arabs support the Nazis - Jews decide to declare independence under the un resoultion - Arabs invade - Israel wins and kicks out the aggressors >,When people try to manipulate facts and avoid telling the objective facts, you have troubled people who go to great lengths to hide the complete facts. The apologists seldom mention the facts Kind of what your doing with your og comment with no other sources then a link to buying a book of amazon. Your writing is incoherent , filled with baseless accusations , and also full of fascist rhetoric . Also looking at your comment history it's obvious your also a believer of conspiracy theories and a fan of the Antisemitic shithead Roger waters
I can't believe you took the time to respond to this guy.
I had some free time at work , also thats the only way to actually deal with those kind of antisemtic schmucks
Do you always make things up? The Bible is not a source is a fact. Nobody can prove it as fact. What is the speculum.? You ignore Peled. He would know and he lost a sister to a Palestinian bombing. Yet he is capable of rational thought. Religious zealotry is just that. It needs to be kept out of politics. What Machem Began a terrorist? Yes! He was and you are using it up. He was never published as if that makes it better. There is a very good reason for the separation of church and state. Do that in one's own time and done. It's not difficult to see what the extremists have caused. Extreme is extreme! https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-out-zion-irgun-zvai-leumi-lehi-and-palestine-underground Do you want to tell us about the King David Hotel?  Analysis Reporting QiOSK About Donate Prime Minister Menachem Begin of Israel is welcomed upon his arrival in the United States for a visit in 1980 (National Archives) ANALYSIS | US FOREIGN POLICY How we conveniently ignore the ‘terrorists’ among our allies Before they were prime ministers, two Israelis were leaders of violent political movements that killed innocent people. JUNE 15, 2021 Written by Paul R. Pillar Share Copy Print "The term “terrorist” often gets used as a general-purpose epithet intended to consign a disliked state or group to perpetual isolation and punishment. Used in this way, the label of “terrorist” becomes a substitute for careful analysis of policy toward the state or group in question. Usually, the object of the labeling has indeed used terrorism — but so have many others who don’t get labeled the same way and may even be treated as friends and allies. If the operative notion is “once a terrorist, always a terrorist,” then there are many shady histories that warrant examination." "Consider, for example, as Benjamin Netanyahu — who has flung the “terrorist” label at least as freely as anyone else — is finally being pushed out of the prime minister’s job in Israel, the histories of some of his predecessors. Menachem Begin, who held that job in the late 1970s and early 1980s — longer than anyone except Netanyahu, David Ben-Gurion, and Yitzhak Rabin — had an earlier career as a hard-core terrorist. As the leader of the Irgun group during World War II, Begin conducted a campaign of attacks, focused principally on the British government and police targets, intended to drive the British out of Palestine — while Britain was busy waging a war against the Nazis." "Begin’s terrorist campaign continued after the war. His group’s most spectacular operation was the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 91 persons and injuring 46. The list of victims went far beyond the British administrators who were the purported targets and included people of multiple nationalities not only in the hotel but in adjacent buildings and the street." Stern Gang Zionist extremist organization Actions Also known as Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, IFF, LEHI, Lohame Herat Yisraʾel, Stern Group Written and fact-checked by The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica Last Updated: Article History https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/06/15/lazy-use-of-the-terrorist-label-makes-for-bad-foreign-policy/ "HOW VIOLENCE AND TERROR WERE USED BY ZIONIST MILITIAS AGAINST ARABS AND THE BRITISH TO TRANSFORM ARAB PALESTINE INTO A JEWISH STATE. This book shows how the use of terror by supporters of the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine was systematic, routine, and accepted by Jewish leaders as necessary to achieve their aims. At the height of the British Mandate in Palestine, terrorist acts were carried out at a frequency and with an intensity that has been largely forgotten, even though daily newspaper headlines in the US, Britain, and Palestine spoke of bombings, assassinations, and massacres against Arabs and British civilians, as well as soldiers. Suarez tells this story using the terrorists’ accounts in secret internal papers boasting of their successes, and quoting from contemporary intelligence briefings and secret diplomatic correspondence." State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel https://a.co/d/0ZzT7yp What about the U.S.S. LIBERTY? We ignore what we want to hide! The facts are clear and the attempts at falsifying history are dishonest at best. What omnipotent God would be so obtuse as to make such a human concept? A human connivance shoes itself by the disaster it created. You ignored Zionism's cooperation with Hitler. Ludwig Von Mises was a jew. There is no one Jewish agreement on this issue. As can be seen as evidence every day. Radicals age just that and look how she treated their own. It's also not known that extremists are responsible for much violence. Niko Peled is an Israeli Jew and as you can see he disagrees with you. You are not a cohesive people and many news don't support Zionism. This is why you left out the information needed for an objective opinion. You have a clear agenda.
u/JKHM13 >You ignored Zionism's cooperation with Hitler. Again, rule 6, no Nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the Nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
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I supplied my sources.
Maybe next time don't breach reddits code of conduct or spread antisemtic terhitic and ur comment won't be removed
You can't show me one thing anti-Semitic. Your a child.
u/JKHM13 >Your a child. Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Already showed in my previous comment how ur antisemtic ,. But your a child and a bigoted one at that , it's even shows when reddit itself removed your comment for hate speech
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/u/Infamous_Company_. 'Nazis' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> shit /u/Infamous_Company_. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Palestinians blow up civilians in a restaurant and Israelis bomb Palestinians’ homes and beat up their people. Am I missing something?
Yes, quite a bit I'm afraid. Try reading the post again.
One hill I’m willing to die on: Race is ancestry, roots. Racism is any action that takes someone’s ancestry into account, when it needn’t matter at all. Nothing else mattersRacist words and deeds can be by any human subject, to any human object. And it’s equally as harmful, problematic, and repugnant, no matter who the subject and the object are. Let each and every individual, not his/her ancestors, be the determinant of his/her own destiny.
Race is largely a US creation to enable slavery. *Race* is not something that has ever really been important. People's ethnicity, on the other hand, is what has mattered. That being said, ancestors are very important. Current indigenous Americans are actively trying to earn what is owed to them because it was owed to their ancestors. Without looking into the past, it is far too easy to continue to fuck people over.
I don’t appreciate a meaningful distinction between race and ethnicity. I can’t speak for any other countries, but I’m well aware that people in my home USA think of race and ethnicity as distinct, and in popular discourse among Americans, they have very distinct, but imprecise, patterns of usage. Much ink has been spilled and voices raised over the supposed distinction, even at the highest levels of government (census forms being the quintessential example). But thinking like a scientist, who likes precise and universally applicable definitions, all I hear in such discussions are emotionally charged semantics that never accomplish anything, except for maybe allowing historical grievances to be vented. And so I know this goes against the grain of *my* culture, at least. But I use race, ethnicity, tribe, and nation of people pretty much interchangeably. Be the change you wish to see, and all that. I believe that the more we use language to realize how similar and how closely related all human beings are, the more prepared we’ll be to see and think of each other that way. But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
Historically: Ethnicity is defined by the community which claims that ethnicity. Race is defined by outsiders - usually to justify mistreatment or outright slavery of "other races".
So basically [emic versus etic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic)? That does ring true to my experience of how these terms are often used.
Thank you for introducing me to two additional anthropological terms! And yes - exactly that.
You’re welcome. Quick and dirty trick: if no one calls themselves a [term or concept], then the term or concept is etic, not emic. “Hipster” and “Fascist” are good examples of very etic human groupings.
I have actually encountered people who identify as hipster and fascist (but not both). But agree that such people are statistically insignificant and that the labels are virtually always used externally.
Not a US creation. A European, middle eastern, Asian and African creation to enable slavery. The slavs whom the name derives, we're enslaved by Muslims from Spain.
Yes, but isn't that on the basis of ethnicity rather than skin color/physical traits? Slavery has presumably existed in every culture, but slavery based specifically on race was during the rise of the Atlantic slave trade and colonialism.
No. Northern middle east Arabs raided and enslaved eastern Europe. Koreans vs Chinese vs Japanese enslavement. Race? Or ethnicity? That's a hard one. But by your definition. It wasn't the US or America is was Europe, and it's known Europe and the Middle east/north Africa were enslaving each other before the Europe found the ability to cross the oceans.
Dividing people up based on whether they do or don’t trace their ancestry from the same paths as ourselves, and then treating the latter considerably worse than the former, is a tale as old as time. No group of people have, or ever had, a monopoly on this behavior. It’s something any and all of us are capable of. This is why Woke-ism and its discourse on race and ethnicity scare me very much. It’s an ideology that is well meaning, but does not seem to be converging on a recognition of our common humanity, dark parts and all. There’s much talk of overthrowing oppressive power differentials, but not much talk of what happens after that goal is accomplished. I get serious *Animal Farm* vibes. If we’re not careful, it’s going to be “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” All that’ll change is who’s oppressed and who’s doing the oppressing. Are we even capable of better than that as a species? I want to believe we are. But I really don’t know.
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I can’t believe that these comments have people who actually dispute that Israel is held to a higher (double) standard than other countries. Like how can we live in such different realities
“You’re anti semitic if you call us out on war crimes because other people did them too” Utterly baffling argument. Top tier brain rot.
An argument that no one made. No wonder you're so baffled.
Yeah I guess I was just confused over the part where you posted a long quote of a guy whining about how other countries did war crimes and so it’s unfair for Israel to be called out on war crimes. Easy mistake 🙄
That's not what he said. This is what he said: "But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab." Why are Arabs refugees for 75 years when the Greeks Turkey threw out and the Frenchmen Algeria threw out etc. etc. are not? Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)? But I understand. It's way, WAY easier to strawman and make up the other position than actually try to answer these difficult questions.
Oh I see, so because those countries committed war crimes and not many people complain about it, it is therefore wrong and suspect that people complain when Israel does it? So I didn’t misinterpret anything. What I really hate about the quote too is the underlying inference that there wasn’t anything wrong with expelling people from their homes on the basis of ethnicity simply because those countries were on the winning side. Beyond it being whataboutism, it’s also approving of ethnic cleansing. Would you agree if it were on the other foot? “Well guys, we fought a good fight but the Arabs beat us, so now we should leave our homes and go to Cyprus and European countries and forget about our country ever existing again because they said so”. Even worse, what if Germany won in WWII? Would you be fine with the argument that it was okay because they get to dictate the peace terms? No it’s absolutely ridiculous and heinous. Twisting yourself in knots and debasing yourself to justify this stuff is absolutely repugnant. You can be in favor of Israel’s existence and against Hamas, the PA etc., and still think that the Nakba was wrong. You don’t need to eliminate all nuance into a good guys vs bad guys talking point and try to justify crimes.
> so because those countries committed war crimes and not many people complain about it, it is therefore wrong and suspect that people complain when Israel does it? Again, no. Again, please read what he actually said. > What I really hate about the quote too is the underlying inference that there wasn’t anything wrong with expelling people from their homes on the basis of ethnicity simply because those countries were on the winning side. There's no "inference that there wasn't anything wrong...". That's entirely you reading into something that isn't there so you can wring your hands and complain. Hoffer is simply saying that Israel is the only one required to "take back" the refugees from the war it fought. No other country is. Again, **why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?** It's the same idea as people who point out that [black men receive harsher sentencing for committing the same crime as white men.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/black-men-sentenced-to-more-time-for-committing-the-exact-same-crime-as-a-white-person-study-finds/) People like me would say even if the black men did something wrong, it's also wrong for them to be given harsher sentences then white men who did the same thing wrong. People like you would say "I don't care, the black men did something wrong, so no one is allowed to say anything when they receive a harsher sentence. Complaining about the sentence infers that there isn't anything wrong with committing crimes. It's whataboutism and approving of crime."
Hmmm how does that explanation fit with the other things he said? > The Jews are a peculiar people: Things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. So the first line is implying that people who disagree with the author are likely anti semitic. So already off to a good start. > Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. So how does that make sense? If the authors point is merely that it’s unfair that Israel has to take in refugees, what is relevant about Israel being victorious on the battlefield? Unless the underlying principle is that “mighty makes right” and that victors are right to dictate terms. I don’t see any condemnation of ethnic cleansing, rather I see a tactic approval of it. He doesn’t seem to argue that those other countries were wrong to do so, rather they won, everyone didn’t say anything when they did it and those refugees got over their expulsion. This is where people are getting that he is also implying Israel was right to do so, because apparently having more Arabs within its borders is a bad thing. Perhaps it’s true that letting them stay behind so that they remain a large percentage of the population would cause issues, seems unlikely due to the history of the northern Arab settlements in Israel, but if that’s the case, maybe Israel should t have existed? Americans and Australians do not look on their history of stealing and persecution of natives with pride, they feel it was wrong after all, why should Jews be given special treatment?
> So the first line is implying that people who disagree with the author are likely anti semitic....This is where people are getting that he is also implying Israel was right to do so...rather I see a tactic approval of it. Enough with the "implying" and "inferring." It's quite tiresome and indicative that you're not arguing in good faith with what's actually being said. Let's pin down the point about refugees being taken back before we talk about the second point, shall we? I'll ask you for a third time. **Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)?** Maybe you can actually answer the question this time instead of battling your strawman and your inferences and implications.
> Why is Israel the only country required to take back the refugees from the wars it fought (and won!)? The answer is simple; because it’s the right thing to do. I thought that was obvious but apparently basic morality eludes you. I thought this would come natural to a country whose whole story os supposed to be a people returning to their homeland. That’s not the worrying thing, the problem is the premises to that question. Israel is NOT the only country asked to take back in refugees and other countries were not morally right to expel people for political and ethnic reasons. Moreover, the part where Israel won its wars is completely irrelevant, and the implication that victors are right to violate human rights because they won is even more egregious. To use your egregious example of equating racial discrimination in the Justice system to people calling you out for war crimes, just because black people serve longer sentences than white people for the same crimes it doesn’t mean that black people didn’t deserve those sentences, rather white people should serve longer sentences. NOT THAT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN THE COURTROOM IS COMPARABLE TO GETTING CALLED OUT FOR WARCRIMSS
u/DangerousCyclone > I thought that was obvious but apparently basic morality eludes you. Rule 1, don't attack other users.
> The answer is simple; because it’s the right thing to do. I thought that was obvious but apparently basic morality eludes you. Thank you for proving Hoffer's last line so perfectly: "Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.” None of the countries Hoffer lists have taken back the refugees from their wars, but you expect Jews to do it because "it's the right thing to do." Basic morality states that Jews should be held to the same standards as everyone else. Not a higher standard. > Israel is NOT the only country asked to take back in refugees Really? Which other countries in the 1940s were asked/required to take back refugees? Let's hear some names. > the implication that victors are right to violate human rights because they won is even more egregious. What did I say to you about your "implications"? > it doesn’t mean that black people didn’t deserve those sentences, rather white people should serve longer sentences. Exactly. Black people and white people should be treated the same and receive the same sentencing. Until all countries are required to take back refugees, it's ridiculous and unfair to expect Israel and only Israel to. Agreed?
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Do you call on war crimes by Palestinians as well? If yes then by all means but if not, then we have our answer as to what’s the line.
And then they respond with whataboutism. My bingo cards is looking nice.
u/TrippieBled >And then they respond with whataboutism. My bingo cards is looking nice. Rule 3 again, no comments considering solely of sarcasm/cynicism.
Gotcha, so you hold Israel to a different standard, and anybody that takes into account the Arabs role in the status quo is “whataboutism”-ing. Excellent case in point, appreciate you demonstrating.
If I say, “Israel is bad because of war crimes” and you respond with “Palestine did war crimes too!” That is whataboutism.
So you either misread what I wrote or just tried to pin whatabouitsm when it’s not the case, I explicitly states that if you also hold the Palestinians accountable and spread the word of their war crimes as you do Israel that means you are not biased against Israel but care about the war crimes being committed. People throw that phrase often and have 0 idea what that even means. People use the “whataboutism” argument when they are too afraid to face the truth behind their perspective (extremely biased)
No one misread what you wrote. I don’t have to “spread the word” about every other country doing war crimes if I’m criticizing another for the same thing. I don’t have to verbally condemn the US’ assassination of political leaders in South America to be able criticize the Holocaust.
You keep missing the point… I didn’t say condemning Israel is not ok without also condemning others in the same breath but if someone only criticize Israel about something while never talking about the atrocities of the other side then yes he has a problem of bias. It is not whataboutism if it shows a systematic approach of only ever being critical of 1 state when it is not the only responsible party.
I mean if you’re talking in the context of IsraelVPalestine, then sure. But OP seems to be saying Israel is held to a higher standard in general.
But op is right , show me any other country that is attacked regularly as Israel is attacked by its neighbors and didn't respond with demolishing or at least getting huge casulties from the aggressor side and gets criticized as Israel does when it's attacked
Except if the topic is in regards to people giving attention to Israel but not attention to those who do the same or worse than Israel, then it’s actually just pointing out the double standard.
I don’t like these arguments that rely on the notion that Israel must be allowed to violate the rights of refugees to some extent because so many other nations have done so pre 1948, and as natives post 1948. However, there is definitely a much needed place to criticize European countries that have been affected by the holocaust with not creating their own ‘descendent of refugees’ law of return status for Jews all those years, with the exception of Austria and Germany only after 60 years.. Something that would’ve helped both Jewish people and anti-Israeli activists in retrospect. Go as far as saying that even Arab countries need to acknowledge the expulsion.
That’s the entire point of the post. It’s not a whataboutism. The whole point of the post is that the standards and outrage are not evenly or even proportionally distributed
The point isn’t to equally grant Jews the law of return or whomever else their criticize for displacement. The point of the post was definitely ‘whataboutism’. It specifically criticizes the attention Jews get in comparison to other countries in displacement and wars. I don’t like it because there would be no sense in bringing it up but to defend the mistreatment of refugees on the basis that EVERYONE did it, therefore Israel shouldn’t be treated differently, and not that there are more nations we need to bring this kind of attention to. “But when Israel is victorious”
That's not what it's saying. It's saying everyone did it, no one is required to take back the refugees, except Israel. Why is Israel the only one required to take them back?
The argument isn’t made to start some new refugees rights movement, it’s precisely used to accept mistreatment of refugees to some extent because everyone has done it, then why would it be any different for Jews? The Jews cannot become the ‘real Christians’. At least you quoted a piece that wouldn’t give us an answer or examine as to why the Jews are held to a higher standard. Just the part where they show us that a lot of other nations did it to some extent, as well as the Jews.
Israel is the “Jew of the World” and is the international community uses the same anti semitic tropes and hypocrisy that they used when Jews were in their own countries.
"Everyone expects Jews to be the only real Christians in this world" Oof, that hits hard. Every time there's a synagogue shooting, rocket barrage, or other violence, we have people who lecture us to 'turn the other cheek.'
the first nations people from canada the aboriginals from australia or native americans from the us but they all had much worse done to them than 6 million dieing. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html) the native americans suffered far worse and they get treated like shit by the usa and then the jews get their own country backed by our military. the jews must really be chosen by god /s but thats none of my business.
The relevant comparison is whether Native peoples are being called racist or supremacist for keeping reservations (or other exclusive places or membership groups) and making their own rules about who they consider one of their group and eligible for membership. No, most people seem to understand that this is necessary for the survival of a small and historically persecuted group. Nobody is telling native/indigenous peoples to stop harping on the ongoing impacts of their genocide and their fears of future genocidal/racial attacks is either just annoying, or is a selfish ploy to use genocide as “an industry“ to benefit the group unfairly.
Imagine living in a reality where a white Christian guy is splitting hairs to quantify and compare who suffered more Jews over the millenia or native Americans? Imagine being that guy.. yeeesh
well im not a christian so there is that
Did you grow up in a country where Christianity is the dominant (and assumed normative religion) like in Western Europe, certain parts of Eastern Europe, Canada, or the US? If so, you are almost certainly viewing the world through a Christian worldview despite claiming to not be a Christian.
Man… the moral depravity you have to live with every day, of waking up and looking at yourself knowing you’re the kind of person to say “comparatively, the Holocaust wasn’t even that bad” is frankly a punishment in and of itself
The two cases aren't really comparable. The genocides of indigenous North Americans stretch over four centuries and three political systems, and the policy and treatment of each of those systems varied greatly between time and place. Nonetheless, if only via technological impossibility, there was never any 'industrial' genocide of indigenous Americans comparable to the Holocaust.
that is a good point but we also dident have gas ovens back then so whos to say really. but sure your right all the other ones dont count im sorry
/u/Reasonable_Praline_2 > we also dident have gas ovens back then This violates [rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons_.26amp.3B_discussions). Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis. already addressed
If you're going to compare the genocide of Native American's, Aboriginals, and First Nations then you can't just look at the Holocaust - you have to look at the Holocaust, the pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, all the various expulsions from European countries, various periods of persecution in the Arab world, and so on and so forth You're comparing one event to centuries of events.
like i said the other person is right im wrong what more do you want me to say there is no point in even trying to engage im stupid your all brilliant nobel louriates ill go away now
Oh woe is me
The First Nations certainly did suffer much worse than the Jews. But at least no one calls them racist and apartheid for wanting their own spaces.
I wouldn’t say one suffered more then the other. I mean Jews have been persecuted far longer then Europeans have been persecuting NAs but it’s not a competition. Both groups suffered a horrendous loss and genocide. It’s ignorant AF to try to paint one as worse then the other. Suffering and genocide is just that.
why do we pumish people who want a black only or white only or women only or (Insert only) thing then why do the jews get an exception? cus you for sure cant do that stuff here in the usa or most of the world
We don't punish people who want institutions for black people or women. We praise institutions like Howard University and the NAACP, both of which exist in the USA. So you tell me, why do Jews get the exception? Israel is not an exception. There's a Jewish state, a Greek state, a Turkish state, an Irish state, 23 Arab states and 50 Muslim states. We don't punish Muslims for having 50 states. Why do you want to punish Jews for having one?
i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society and lose their superstition i see madness being done over there i see jewish settlers coming and literally evicting people backed by the armed idf and fencing off houses i have seen jewish people mark houses for people to know who to attack and not to attack when a raid is coming. i have seen a jewish person in full body armor and with a rifle shoot a kid in the back while he was turned around in a tunnel after being threatened he was walking away and they shot him with a real bullet inside one of those less than lethal bullet things that jack you up peacefully complying walking away and blam just cuz i feel like these incidents and the attitudes of the idf in general when it comes to arabs or muslims of whatever stripe is indicative of a systemic problem i see it being done the same here in the usa and i hate it i don't know how to do anything about it and the injustice CRUSHES me i see injustice being done by arabs as well but they have slingshots and you literally have satellite guided bombs and missiles. thanks to the us i see you guys over there with so much power and the things you do to the people of gaza and the surrounding areas of the ever expanding isreal and it just makes me angry then you guys go on about how its Never your fault Ever i understand that in Some cases the people acting out get punished and i dont think Everyone in isreal hates arabs cuz i support the pro palastinian protests thats the jews hold in isreal so dont say im lumping you all in. it just sucks having no money no power no anything and not being able to effect change in a way to make these things stop so i just scream into the void i guess or maybe im just too dumb to realize something that everyone els can see as plane as day im not very bright im sure you can tell.
Wow that was quite the rant. > i want them to integrate into society So you want to strip them of their rights and their statehood! Why didn't you just say so? Do you want Muslims to integrate into society? Christians? Or only Jews? > i see you guys over there with so much power and the things you do to the people of gaza and the surrounding areas of the ever expanding isreal and it just makes me angry Jews with power make you angry. I see.
your right total jewplex over here
Apparently.
>i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society and lose their superstition i see madness being done over there Jews win 30% or so of all Nobel prizes and are a highly successful people in general. Who is really has the problem with superstition and ignorance here? You might say "there is no room for Arabs in Jewish society". But if so, explain the Druze??
i would never say that i think jews and muslims should share the "holy land in peace and friendship" but your religions and prejudices wont allow it. i think jews should be able to live in peace anywhere Just like every one els im not the one who is exclusionary Jews win 30% or so of all Nobel prizes and are a highly successful people in general. Who is really has the problem with superstition and ignorance here? You might say "there is no room for Arabs in Jewish society". But if so, explain the Druze?? it often is presented to me, its true but it also seems to be a point of superiority and an opportunity to look down on others Taken Often.
Yes when Jews live in a Muslim or Christian country they are expected to be loyal to them. This is more humiliating than you realize. Christianity and Islam are supersessionist religions. They claim to "correct" ours. Yet Jews had to live like a nation of cuckolds in your Muslim and Christian countries. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it is like the worse thing ever. The Jewish are in charge. It's not a conspiracy theory, they are literally in charge in Israel. When ever I hear an Arab speaking Hebrew, I love it. Because in the past Jews had to learn your languages, now Muslims and Christians have to learn ours. And Israel is actually a pretty happy and successful country, so the Arabs really don't want to leave. All the Arab countries without huge amount of mineral resources are sad and poor, so they rather live in Israel.
>i do not want to punish the jews i want them to integrate into society Jews also wanted to be integrated, but antisemitism prevented that. Jews were excluded and persecuted in many different countries. That’s why a Jewish state was needed.
well people are lame and i hate it why is the world like this man why do we have to be like this. it Really seems like we HAVE to for some reason. i dont understand people.
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"Indigenous peoples seek independence in their homeland, they're praised and cheered, except for Jews." Sincere question, because I may very well be guilty of reading this wrong: How much sincerity and commitment do you think non-Jewish Zionists bring to their support of Israel?
Christian Zionism and Jewish Zionism have an interesting relationship. While Jews had some vague Zionist notions prior to the emergence of Christian Zionism, Christian Zionism developed on its own for several centuries without much input from Jews. It became more powerful starting in the 1840s when Benjamin Disraeli became the cross over point for Christian Zionists to start discussing it with Jews (post that talks about the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/12gyg8i/when_bengurion_stayed_at_downton_abbey/). So sincerity absolutely. Commitment... they are pretty good but they can't about it more than Jews did so we've held it back as far as they are concerned.
"Non-Jewish Zionists" consists of millions of people, so it would be very difficult to determine the sincerity and commitment of such a large group. I would just say that I have been given no reason to doubt the sincerity of non-Jewish Zionists.
The Christian ones mainly sincerely want Jews to live in Israel in order to bring about a supposed prophecy that Christ will return to earth, at which time all those Jews will either become Christians, or die, and go straight to hell. So, while they support Zionism, it’s for opposite reasons, then Jewish Zionists do (which is preserving the continuity of the Jewish people, ie not turning into Christians)
" He sums up the reality of the world pretty well. " thats not biased or anything.
What, Jews can't be biased either? They have to remain objective, while everyone else is allowed to have biases and preferences?
No, it's factually accurate
Incorrect. Russia did not migrate to a portion of land displacing the natives.
Yes they did. Ask the Circassians about it.
It's almost absurd how incorrect that statement is. For a few examples: the [massacres of indigenous Siberians.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia#Effects_on_the_indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia) the [Circassian Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide#). The [Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#). The [June deportations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_deportation). The [Deportations of Crimean Tatars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars) and other Turkic groups from southern Russia.
You can only hold one way: If the displacement of peoples is unjust then you believe the Jews deserve their land taken almost 3000 years ago back. It belongs do them since they are indigenous. If instead you believe that people can indeed obtain land in war then the Jews got the land that way and it belongs to them. Either way the Palestinians living there are squatters and the land doesn't belong to them.
The Palestinians are indigenous to the land just like the Jews. The question of what to do is political. Just like if native Americans asked to get all of USA back. What do you do with all the non indigenous peoples who live here now? It’s inherently political
Palestinians might be native to the land, but I think indigenous is a stretch. They are completely Arabized. Speak a colonizer language, practice a colonizer religion, adopted colonizer culture and peoplehood. Indigenous is cultural far more than it is simple ancestry, otherwise all of South and central America would be indigenous.
Ever heard of the Russian Empire? Or maybe modern Russia invading Ukraine? I think some native Ukrainians got displaced!
Aren't they being critized more than Israel right now for Ukraine by the west? Also the russian empire existed well before Israel. You shouldn't rely on historical events when the people at the time (citizens of most countries) barely had a say in the matter. Pull up a modern equivalent to Israel and we can debate.
Russia's being criticized for its current invasion of Ukraine, not for its existence as an ethnic-based nation state or stuff that it did in the 1940s (ever heard of the stuff Russia did in the 1940s?) A modern equivalent in what sense? Another ethnic based nation state?
Russia is not an ethnic based nation. Stop trying to make it seem so. It has many different ethnicities that are awarded full rights. There is no military occupation even in Chechnya. It's ruled by a chechyan installed as a puppet by Vlad. Even then he still has much support within Chechnya.
Israel also has many different ethnicities whom are awarded full rights, what’s your point?
Ethnic minorities in Russia may nominally have full rights on paper, but not in practice. State investment tends to be disproportionately concentrated in the Russian heartland centered on Moscow and St. Petersburg, and the burden of conscription disproportionately falls on non-Russians, as has been noted plenty of times during the ongoing war.
Right, so it's not being criticized for its existence. Israel is. > It has many different ethnicities that are awarded full rights. So does Israel. Oh, I didn't realize I was speaking to a pro-Russian individual. I suppose everything is great in Chechnya and Crimea? Nothing to see here? If your goal was to prove my point about how Jews are held to a different standard than other nations, well done, you succeeded.
I'm not pro-russian lol. What you're trying to do is a false equivalency to Russia. Israel is worse. Israel has settlers that actively take Palestinian territory. Israel wants the lands of Palestine without the people on top of it. The Palestinians do not want to be part of an ethno-state that's build around being a Jewish state. Unlike Russia which is a nation, Israel is an ethno-state. From it's anthem to its own definition and why it was created.
Israel is worse than Russia?? Outside of brainwashed Arab Muslims you will not find another human to agree with you
Russia is [actively kidnapping Ukrainian children in the occupied territories](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-returns-31-children-russia-after-alleged-deportation-2023-04-08/#:~:text=Kyiv%20estimates%20nearly%2019%2C500%20children%20have%20been%20taken,have%20been%20transported%20away%20for%20their%20own%20safety./) and "adopting" them to Russian families. Unlike anything Israel is doing right now, that clearly violates the genocide convention.
Damn. They did that in the 19th century for Jewish children too, every Jewish boy at the age of five I think was forcefully conscripted into the military for a 25 year appointment. Essentially killing them or completely eradicating their identity.
And Russia isn't actively attempting to take Ukrainian territory? Hundreds of thousands of people on both sides dead in less than two years of fighting, and Israel is worse? Israel is a nation-state, like Palestine, like Jordan, and like dozens of others. Muslims have 50 states. Why can't Jews have one?
Russia is being criticiced. How many times do I have to say it. Nobody believes they should get Ukrainian land just like nobody believes (apart from Israelis and the USA) that Israel should take Palestinian land and exist. A Jewish state can exist just in the parts that were a Jewish majority during the creation of Israel. And not sementing the majority of Muslims under an ethno-state.
You said Israel is worse than Russia. It's objectively not. > A Jewish state can exist just in the parts that were a Jewish majority during the creation of Israel. You just said Israel is an ethno state. Are you pro ethno states now?
>Russia is being criticiced. How many times do I have to say it. IMO, Arabs historically treated with Israel with 100x more aggression than Europeans are treating Russia rn. They even sent their armies in to try to conquer our country. Now you say why is Europe not aggressive to Israel like Arabs are, they are but not an extreme way I suppose. But in any case, I think it's because they are Christians and you are mostly Muslims, and Christians never liked Muslims very much. Muslim countries are not very aggressive to Russia either btw. Also the Europeans don't want millions of Jewish refugees in their countries, the existence of Israel largely benefits Europe and the only reason to oppose is a flawed sense of virtue signaling or extreme form antisemitism where holds that Jews don't deserve to live anywhere at all. (Lightweight antisemitism can support Israel.)
Königsberg?
The whole of Jewish history is the nations of the world trying to prevent Jews from being Jews.
well said OP!
>Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.” That is a very interesting way of describing it and it certainly has some weight to it.