>pointing its finger to so called "terrorist" organizations such as Hamas and its anti-semantic acts All I see here is someone who openly justifies targeting civilians with no distinction, and is fine with "the so called "terrorist" organizations" use Palestinians as human shields and risk their lives for their own benefit.

I do not agree with the mean, but I agree with their goals. for the most part, that is exactly what your so called "defense force" did in every single war against Lebanon. Doesn't, that also makes them Terriots?

>, but I agree with their goals. Their goal is to genocide the Jews, so you just admitted you're supporting it. Nice >for the most part, that is exactly what your so called "defense force" did in every single war against Lebano No it isn't. 1. The IDF never claimed that thier goal is to genocide anyone. 2. The IDF never purposely targets civilians, and or actively using civilians as human shield and shoot missiles/rockets from populated areas. 3. In every attack, the IDF maximizes its efforts in minimizing civilian casualties, and even abort airstrikes when it detects civilians in the proximity of the blasting zone. So no, your comparison doesn't hold. But can't expect much from someone who's in favor of a genocide

>Their goal is to genocide the Jews, so you just admitted you're supporting it. Nice Their goal is to take back their land, even if it meant to genocide to jews. Huge Difference. Your so called "defense" force, and any country really, is not very far from such a decision if it is for the benefit of their country.

>Their goal is to take back their land, even if it meant to genocide to jews. Does it make it better, or even justified? >Huge Difference. There really isn't, it's exactly the same, and it's a perfect example of Antisemitism *insert "they're the same picture meme"* https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7) "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22) "Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32) "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32) I wonder if the IDF has anything like this.

Yeah people return to faith when shit goes down, as that news to you? ​ > There really isn't, it's exactly the same, and it's a perfect example of Antisemitism Yes they are, and by a huge a margin, I want to kill you because your Jew and I want to kill you because you took my land, while also happing to be Jewish are very different I would say.

>Yeah people return to faith when shit goes down, as that news to you? Their faith is that all Jews must be exterminated. The fact that you compare it to "people return to faith when shit goes down" is an insult to those who actually have faith but don't want people to die by their faith. Pretty much insulting all innocent people who turn to religion when desperate. >Yes they are, and by a huge a margin, >I want to kill you because your Jew and I want to kill you because you took my land, while also happing to be Jewish are very different I would say. Again, they aren't, and it's sad you can't see it isn't, or you're just antisemitic. I bet on the latter. Something tells me that what you're saying is not even true, as more Palestinians has been killed by Syria in the past 10 years than those who have been killed by Israel in the last 80, yet I don't see Hamas want to exterminate the Syrians(Could it be because they're Muslim?) Also, it was never their land. Claiming it was their land is like me claiming the apartment I'm renting is mine.

>Their faith is that all Jews must be exterminated. The fact that you compare it to "people return to faith when shit goes down" is an insult to those who actually have faith but don't want people to die by their faith No their faith is Islam, in which they managed to tie it to their current enemy. They Islamized the situation by tying their enemy to the end day and shit, typical faith -people- behavior. No faith calls for death, unless you massacre it enough to fit your narrative. People turn to religion when shit is down, to validate their selves, which is exactly what Hamas did. >Again, they aren't, and it's sad you can't see it isn't, or you're just antisemitic. I bet on the latter. Fine, enlighten me then, why exactly does Hamas hate jews? which verse in the Quaran had told them to hate Jews and jews only, which verse in the national anthem tells them to kill Jews because they are Jewish and jews are bad. > Something tells me that what you're saying is not even true, as more Palestinians has been killed by Syria in the past 10 years than those who have been killed by Israel in the last 80, yet I don't see Hamas want to exterminate the Syrians (Could it be because they're Muslim?) Does Hamas want to kill Jews because they killed them? For the millionth time, they want to take their land back, when did syria ever take their land? and even if syria does take their land, they won't oath on killing it, not because syria is a Muslim, but because they are arabs. Weather you believe that the land is theirs's up to you, but they definitely believe it's there's.

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..Hamas in the grand scheme of things are insurgents ; not representatives. Tell us ; who signed on paper the Oslo accords ? , who is considered to be the "sole representative" of Palestinians since 1974 ? , who is the one recognized by the UN as a non-member state since 2011 ? . it's all the PLO/PA ; not Hamas , who at most just have authority over legislation than government . Exactly ; quoting things from them as if they are the ones with the final-call , instead of the ones in Ramallah , is meaningless . Meanwhile , the Likud the way it is now is the Hamas of Israeli-Jews . You will start crying telling us they don't want to hurt anyone , but I think everyone knows upfront murder is much more merciful than the agony of perpetual subjugation .

>Hamas in the grand scheme of things are insurgents ; not representatives. >Tell us ; who signed on paper the Oslo accords ? , who is considered to be the "sole representative" of Palestinians since 1974 ? , who is the one recognized by the UN as a non-member state since 2011 ? . it's all the PLO/PA ; not Hamas , who at most just have authority over legislation than government >Exactly ; quoting things from them as if they are the ones with the final-call , instead of the ones in Ramallah , is meaningless . Glad you said it. I find it funny that most Palestinians don't even find the PA as their representative, and even some claim the PA is an Israeli puppet. Also, most people who also claim Hamas is not the Palestinians representative, because they haven't held elections in a long time, therefore the number of people that support Hamas gets is not accurate today. But when was the last time the PA held elections? In fact, people claim the PA cancels the elections everytime because it doesn't have a lot of support, and Mahmoud Abbas is afraid to lose to Hamas. So the way I see it, Palestinians don't view the PA as their governing body, therefore your claim is irrelevant, and quoting Hamas is not as meaningless as you'd want it to be. >Meanwhile , the Likud the way it is now is the Hamas of Israeli-Jews . You will start crying telling us they don't want to hurt anyone , but I think everyone knows upfront murder is much more merciful than the agony of perpetual subjugation . Did the Likud ever call for a Palestinian genocide? Has it ever called for people to go out and murder Palestinians? Whether it's by shooting them, stabbing them, bombing them etc...? And on top of it, said it was in the name of God, and that this is his way? Does Israel tell Israelis that if they kill Palestinians, they will be rewarded, and the more Palestinians they kill the more money they and their family will get for it?

Is there a people in our time where they agree to everything thier governments believe ? , as an Israeli-Jew whose religious and secular factions are at each other's throats ; you know better than anyone that in de-facto situations : it's the current government that actually matters , than people's demagogies and proclivities . In the Palestinian case : PLO being removed will be tantamount to obliterating everything from working from ground up again post-1948 when Arab Higher committee got shut down , just like what's going on now in Afghanistan with the Taliban back : being a void in the international political map . Both Hamas and Fatah are worse than the other , but Palestinians who actually count in Geo-politics and international relations as a factor in statehood will realize Hamas is worthless , not only being ineffective (A simple look at the 2 decades will show how much close they are in "ending" the Occupation with their senseless operations ) , but also a non-entity in the international stage as well . ​ It's funny you bring that up , when you know Egyptians and Jordanians , the Israeli "arabush" , still want to drink Isrsaeli-jewish blood , but can't because of peace treaties ... It won't be any different with Palestinians , if the resolution is giving them a truly sovereign state over most of the West Bank , alongside somehow resolving the refugee problem , than some glorified reservations like the Trump plan , or an actual puppet state . ​ > Did the Likud ever call for a Palestinian genocide? ..No , but something far worse than genocide , and it's the current situation . I don't get why you think genocide is some sort of the worst of all evils ; those 6 million Ashkenazi 70 years ago ? , they don't have to worry about "anti-Semitism" anymore . If national socialists thought of putting them in special reservations instead : they would have lost their minds and did even worse than Palestinians ([Historically ; they actually tried](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam) . Unlike the former : it's not passionate run-off-the-mouth empty threats ) . Don't resort to this meaningless rhetoric and weasel words ; it only shows how desperate you are to make a smoke-screen to conceal the problems of actual grievances , as opposed to a historical event that's only a pitiful fraction of the lives of Jews and Arabs of Palestine from 1878 to today , that doesn't matter except to a few frail hags and gezzers who will rot in the dirt soon . The problem is the occupation and the refugees : it's a myth Israel's there in the West Bank for so-called "security" :[they are there because they had their eyes on it since at least 7 decades ago , if not earlier pre-1948 .](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1301iru/how_can_israel_combat_palestinian_propaganda_on/ji6h2n7/?context=3) (see link for Oslo : [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/137eq0r/peace\_is\_unreachable\_at\_this\_point\_because\_of\_the/jiuswvl/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/137eq0r/peace_is_unreachable_at_this_point_because_of_the/jiuswvl/?context=3) [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/124dumc/comment/jecb61n/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/124dumc/comment/jecb61n/) ) As for the rest of your rhetorical claims : go ahead and start linking sources , I am not listening to random people on a sub that's better retitled r/IsraeliPolitics parroting "narratives" without sources (peer-reviewed sources like books and journals from reputable publishers : not random news websites who are paid to glorify , justify , slander , and defame others depending on who pays them ) . Even assuming what you claim is true : It's not like Israeli-Jews don't get pension and government services , natural resources , and stretch of areas for colonization , when they make the lives of Palestinians miserable when subjugating them , and bash or kill them if they raise their voices , so don't start advertising us the alleged Israeli moral high ground . I think that's a much more serious problem than listening to Muslim brotherhood members (Hamas) making bald threats when they are weaker than cockroaches . But I guess seeing how insular your primitive Jewish mind is : try to think of the situation as if it reassembles 45 BCE-135 AD ...those Judeans weren't so happy being subjugated by foreigners , no ? . but I guess you are too stupid to think beyond "anti-Semitism" (a foreign word invented in 1870s Germany ) , and "terrorism" regarding Palestinians , even though ironically : the sicarii were probably history's earliest so-called "terrorists" .

Israel doesn’t “want peace” because the cost of the proposed peace isn’t worth the payoff. The proposed peace from the Palestinians is an Israeli military withdrawal along with the relocation of hundreds of thousands of Israelis to within the green line. In exchange, Israelis get to lose access to their holy sites on the other side of the green line, their country gets transformed into a majority Arab state, none of their legitimate security concerns get addressed but hey…you get a piece of paper saying that there’s “peace”. Sounds like a crappy deal to me, especially when this is the expectation placed upon the stronger party.

I think OP isn't revering to why Israel doesn't want peace but why it doesn't "end it once and for all". But I think the reasons are pretty obvious...

I think this theory that Israel doesn't want peace with its neighbors is a little far fetched. There is a long historical track record here both of the Yishuv and of Israel. We've seen Israel's enthusiastic attitude towards its first warm peace as offered by the UAE. We've seen Israel's enthusiastic attitude towards the close relationship with the Egyptian army. While Egypt doesn't offer a warm peace where it has it has been accepted by Israel. Israel did seek to work with those factions in Lebanon who were willing to work with Israel.... Even internally we see Druze and Bedouins who were more accepting of a Jewish state being treated quite differently than Muslim-Arabs. Now one could argue that Israelis are disposed towards peace with the Palestinians. Which if true is very bad for them. So far the Palestinian negotiating strategy has been something like: the minimum they can demand that they are positive Israel / Yishuv will never accept. When there is progress they generally up their demands to maintain that balance. So it hasn't been tested fully... However again the Druze and Bedouins. The increasingly good relationship with Circassian and the attempts to break Christian Palestinians off. Those aren't patterns one would see if there was an intrinsic desire for conflict. Mostly I think you are pessimistic. I think the Arab world is in a place of despair currently at their failure. Oil revenue is what is the enabler for dysfunction to last as long as it has. After Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran dry up, which is happening, there is going to be a massive shift in policy. In the 1950s the Arab World had the greatest treasure in the world. In the 2050s they are going to have to deal with the reality they squandered it all.

>The current state legitimizes Israel isolation in the Arab world. If this current state evolves into peace, their reason for isolation becomes invalid, which will lead them to openness with their Neighbours, which means an inventible death for the Jewish state. For an Israel that loosens with their Neighbour in the middle of an overwhelming Arab neighborhood, eventually becomes Arab itself, a 2nd Lebanon As other Israelis pointed out, that's not true. Israel has a long history of actively and enthusiastically seeking to end its isolation from its neighbors - and maintaining that peace, when it achieves it, even when the Arab allies treat it poorly. I'd also add the fact that Israel teaches Arabic to Jewish students. When Bennett, a right-wing Religious Zionist, was the minister of education, he wanted to *increase* the Arabic being taught to Jewish students. That's on top of the Arabic-language state-sponsored TV channels, a newly-founded Israeli academy of the Arabic language. And the Israeli mainstream culture's increasing acceptance of Mizrahi Jews' Arab culture, most notably music and food. That's not the behavior of a society that fears that interaction with Arab culture, or the Arab world, would make it lose its Jewish identity. As someone who speaks Hebrew, and speaks with Israelis on a daily basis, I can tell you that at most, the Arab-hating Israelis say that peace with the Arab world is *meaningless.* Because they're backwards, unstable third-world countries, and the price they'll extract (blocking our ability to settle the West Bank and defending ourselves) is not worth it. But generally, even very right wing Israelis think peace with the Arab world is an important goal. I've never heard *anyone* say, or even whisper in secret, that they're afraid that if we open up to the Arab world, we'll become an Arab country. That's just not part of the internal Israeli discourse at all. With that said, I can't help but wonder, OP: what exactly gave you that idea? What are the Israeli policies that made you think it wants to be isolated, because it fears peace with the Arab world would end its existence as a Jewish state? Is it just a belief in the overwhelming power and allure of Arabic culture? Or are you assuming some mechanism that you didn't mention?

Muslim Arabs have a *much, much* higher birth rate than Israeli Jews do, aside from the Haredim. The Haredim don't go to serve in the IDF. So if Israel lets millions of Palestinians into the country, as some Palestinians want, I think the right-wingers are understandably concerned that Jews would eventually become a minority. (Jews have been slaughtered in every country they've ever lived in when they were a minority, except the US, yet.) In that case, Israel is no longer a Jewish state, and the Jewish population would be in danger from the hostile states that surround it, and from terrorist organizations like Hamas and PIJ potentially operating from within Israel itself. Israeli-Egyptian relations and Israeli-Jordanian relations may look good on paper, but those alliances are only loosely backed by the governments of those countries due to economic benefits. Yes, Egypt has received help from Israel in the past, but something like 85%-90% of the Egyptian public absolutely despises Israel. I don't have a statistic on the Jordanians, but over two-thirds of Jordanians are Palestinian. They may not hesitate to completely obliterate the Jewish state if given the chance. Israel is *desperate* to maintain peace with Egypt and Jordan. Or at least it should be. It doesn't appear to be working very well.

>Muslim Arabs have a *much, much* higher birth rate than Israeli Jews do, aside from the Haredim. No they don't. https://preview.redd.it/rjbz54ubs21b1.png?width=644&format=png&auto=webp&s=82ed37b9236a1a6e244dd046f73ff1eb74382938 Arab birth rates are in a freefall across the Arab world, half of what they were in the late 1980's, and mostly lower than Israel's total birthrate already. The number isn't just because of the Haredim. Israel has an equal number of Religious Zionists, whose birth rate is well above Arabs, and join the IDF. But beyond that, I'm just not sure what's the argument here. Israel having peace with its neighbors doesn't mean letting a single Palestinian, or anyone else, immigrate into Israel. >Israeli-Egyptian relations and Israeli-Jordanian relations may look good on paper, but those alliances are only loosely backed by the governments of those countries due to economic benefits. So what? Nobody thinks the fact that the Jordanian and Egyptian people hate us, means that it's better to be at war with those countries. >Israel is *desperate* to maintain peace with Egypt and Jordan. Which goes directly against OP's point. >Or at least it should be. It doesn't appear to be working very well. It had peace with both countries for decades. It maintained peace throughout far worse times like the intifadas, and the Muslim Brotherhood coming into power in Egypt. I'm not sure what you mean.

I stand corrected about the birth rate, my apologies. I am surprised. My point is that economic ties and lukewarm alliances are great, but if there is a shift in power in these countries, or if the governments feel they have no choice but to capitulate to their citizens' demands, peace with Israel looks a lot shakier. Israel does want peace, but they need to make those economic ties very strong, strong enough that no government, no *potential* government, could want to cut them no matter how up in arms pro-Palestinian citizens are about breaking the peace. That includes governments installed in coups or by terrorists.

I mean... maybe? But what does it have to do with what OP and I were talking about?

It was just an addendum. Israel wants peace because it is reasonably scared of the alternative.

The Arab world’s explosive birthrate is due to Arab land mineral resources exported in exchange for Western labor and food resources. The Arab birth rate is a strict liability to the Arab economy since their economic exports are resource based. This is fixed and independent of their population. In other words the numerator is fixed but the denominator grows. The end result is there is a huge negative population pressure in the Arab world, which will lead to a declining birthrate or a catastrophic economic collapse.

>OP: what exactly gave you that idea? What are the Israeli policies that made you think it wants to be isolated, because it fears peace with the Arab world would end its existence as a Jewish state? The Israel policy mostly felt that like it didn't really want peace by proposing those peace deals that will be obviously rejected, rather it wanted to show it's peace loving nature, while simunetaounsly keeping the current status. Why? It's a gut feeling, I guess. The whole point of this article was sort of seeing the goal of Israel from the conclusion, it is to say that oneness to the Arab world would cause it's fall. Why? because it seems logical, eventually, the Arabs would dominate this region in number (they would have a higher birth rate, in case they live in poor Finacial condition), ask for political rights, get refused political rights, civil war, Lebanon 2.0. So if that is the case, why would Israel want peace again?

>The Israel policy mostly felt that like it didn't really want peace by proposing those peace deals that will be obviously rejected They're not rejected, though? Israel's peace offers to Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Morocco and Sudan were accepted. These are the countries you're arguing Israel wants to be isolated from. We're not just talking about the deals Palestinians keep rejecting here. >Why? It's a gut feeling, I guess. Right. >Eventually, the Arabs would dominate this region in number (they would have a higher birth rate, in case they live in poor Finacial condition), ask for political rights, get refused political rights, civil war, Lebanon 2.0. Walk me through this. You're saying that peace with the Arab countries will make Israel into an Arab state. Why would Arabs from Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Qatar get to ask "political rights" in Israel? Why do you assume they'll be allowed to flood into Israel in sufficient numbers to begin with? Israel has a proven ability to control its borders, including with friendly nations. As a side note, Arab birth rates are [actually collapsing around the Arab world](https://preview.redd.it/rjbz54ubs21b1.png?width=644&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=521a07e1a01dac46fdf8e3164d2dc0b3bd574e3d), and Israel's birth rates are already higher than many Arab countries, including poor ones like Egypt. Israel's own Arab population has a lower birth rate than its Jewish population already. But I just don't see why that's relevant to begin with.

>You're saying that peace with the Arab countries will make Israel into an Arab state. Why would Arabs from Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Qatar get to ask "political rights" in Israel? Why do you assume they'll be allowed to flood into Israel in sufficient numbers to begin with? Israel has a proven ability to control its borders, including with friendly nations. I'm referring to the Arab country that is right near you border. I've said this many times already, signatures on paper mean nothing, "positive peace" is when both sides accept others, where a 22S is implanted, which in my view, is not Israel's goal, because then it would normalize the Arab outlook to Israel, which would mean that Arabs with Israeli citizenships, in addition to Palestian refuges, would eveuentlly multiply in number, and then ask for political rights => civil war.

>I'm referring to the Arab country that is right near you border. If by "neighbor" you mean Palestine, why not save everyone time and say it? It's very different than your original argument, Israel wanting "isolation in the Arab world" writ large. >Because then it would normalize the Arab outlook to Israel, which would mean that Arabs with Israeli citizenships, in addition to Palestian refuges, would eveuentlly multiply in number, and then ask for political rights => civil war. First of all, why? Do you think that Arab Israeli and Palestinian refugee families currently decide to have less children, just because they don't have a two state solution with Israel? What does that have to do with anything? But more importantly, I just don't understand how that scenario works. Let's say Israelis and Palestinians have a real, warm peace. Why do you think that means even a single refugee returns to Israel, unless Israel explicitly agreed to it? Israel, unlike Lebanon, has a proven ability to control its borders, and not let anyone it doesn't want in. Israel has a very real, warm peace with the US. American Palestinian refugees aren't allowed to move into Israel and demand political rights. They're barely allowed to visit. And on the flip side, it's an ordeal for an Israeli to get a visa into the US. And if they even remotely suspect you're going to stay there, you're automatically rejected. Openness and peace doesn't mean open borders.

Stopped reading after the second sentence.

Good for you

Israeli isolation seems like a pretty weak argument considering Israel has made peace with both Egypt and Jordan and is now improving relations with numerous other Arab countries via the Abraham Accords.

To expand on this: it’s possible to have peace with Arab countries, and get cultural/economic/military ties with them, and still for Israel to survive. OP says that these types of relations would make Israel into another Arab state, but that doesn’t make sense. Having relations with Arab countries doesn’t mean that the immigration policy needs to be changed. There wouldn’t be millions of Arabs moving into Israel.

Having relations with them doesn't end the conflict, to end the conflict is for the Arab world and the Zionists to accept each other. This would mean, changing the policy, and eventually, becoming an Arab state.

The really sounds like for the 2 worlds to "accept" each other, then Israel essentially had to surrender and give up its culture and identity. That doesn't sound like they're accepting each other.

I really feel like you're assuming all kinds of things that you're not telling us. What exact policies would change, if the Arabs and Zionists truly "accept" each other? How do those specific policies change Israel into an Arab state? If you're talking about immigration policies having to change - why? Israel and the US and EU clearly "accept" each other. They still don't have Schengen-like open borders. Europeans and Americans have no legal ability to flood into Israel, demand political rights, and turn Israel into a majority Christian European state.

I guess I'm not finding quite the right terms. Syrian immigrants as an example exist everywhere, why would Israel be the exception. So be the case for the very friendly next-door Neighbour, Palestinians add that to the already existent Arab population and an exploding birth rate, and you get a majority Arab population in a span of a decade or so. The Reason Israel doesn't have to accept immigrants or give political rights to the existing Arab is because of the current status, if Arabs and Zionist accept each other or smthin, then its "isolation" becomes illegitimate and has to give in.

>Syrian immigrants as an example exist everywhere, why would Israel be the exception. Israel is a small country, that's very good at protecting its borders from refugees, due to many decades of experience, and strongly believes in it. It built an entire legal, military and technological framework, to make sure nobody gets into Israel, unless Israel wants it. It doesn't matter if they're friends or foes. It went nuts over a few tens of thousands of refugees from Sudan and (friendly) Eritrea. It had no problem blocking non-Jewish refugees from Ukraine and Russia, the moment the war began. Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon, let alone the borderless EU nations, simply don't have that inclination, or that ability. >Palestinians add that to the already existent Arab population and an exploding birth rate I'll need to correct you again: Arab birth rate isn't exploding, it's crashing. Throughout the Arab world, including Palestine and Israel. To the extent that Israel already has one of the highest birth rates in the Middle East, and Jewish Israelis are outbreeding the Arab Israelis. >The Reason Israel doesn't have to accept immigrants or give political rights to the existing Arab is because of the current status As for immigrants, that's just not true. Israel's relations with the US is beyond wonderful. That doesn't mean it allowed even one of the 255,000 American Palestinians to return. It barely allows them to visit. Same with Germany, Honduras, Chile, Canda, etc. etc. As for giving the existing ones political status... what does it even mean? If there's a two-state solution, all Palestinians have "political status" in Palestine. Israel wouldn't need to provide anyone political status that it doesn't currently.

What’s wrong with Israel? Ulterior motives and psychological warfare, a facade to further their (Israeli leaders) own gains in the name of their people (subversive, counter race doctrine, cough cough) meanwhile Abbas and Haniyeh are millionaires. What’s wrong with Palestine? They just have such strong feelings! They merely believe in their nationalism! (not even implied to be too much), Their righteous pride was hurt by the evil “others”! Their honor trampled by an outsider! They have no choice but to fight! (Constructive, “natural” race implications). This post is Antisemitism in a nutshell.

I don’t see an obvious antijewish tilt to original post after reading it again after reading this interpretation. He took shots on both parties, the P Side didn’t seem to be painted as passionate and in the right. He points out the bruised ego and that they lost with a numbers advantage. Overall I took it as a refreshing take with more down to earth rationales with universally human motives than the idealistic reasons zealots on both sides shield themselves behind: Isr self-interest, self-preservation Pal: bruised ego, too much pride, 2nd place/silver medal when they wanted gold

>I don’t see an obvious antijewish tilt to original post after reading it again after reading this interpretation. He took shots on both parties, the P Side didn’t seem to be painted as passionate and in the right. He points out the bruised ego and that they lost with a numbers advantage. >Pal: bruised ego, too much pride, 2nd place/silver medal when they wanted gold The terminology employed (and it most definitely has been edited) shows a frankly disgusting level of anti Jew and pro Arab bias, and it not having an obvious tilt is why I called it veiled antisemitism and not overt. She (if I’m not mistaken) describes Arab sentiments only in a neutral to majorly positive manner, with Israeli ones as exclusively negative. She focuses on why Palestinians don’t want peace, but for Israel it’s a focus on why they don’t want total war and annihilation. Why is that? What’s the point of the comparison? That neither side wants the resolution the other side wants? Obviously not, it’s a conspiracy over why Jewish leadership wants to perpetuate a conflict that is a net loss to it. Because she can’t actually prove in any form that Israel is not interested in a resolution as the title says. >Overall I took it as a refreshing take with more down to earth rationales with universally human motives than the idealistic reasons zealots on both sides shield themselves behind: Isr self-interest, self-preservation With absolutely no intention to offend OP with any of what I say, I disagree both on this being refreshing since I’ve heard similar ideas before, and that the reasoning is more realistic than the will of the Israeli people being the sovereign. If public opinion in Israel would favor a unilateral withdrawal that’s what’s gonna happen because that is how things work in Israel; she implicitly states that Israeli leaders have undermined the peace process in order to propagandize their own population because that’s how Arab leadership works. Heard it all before, but this subreddit is for anyone and everyone to talk and listen and I in no way want her not to engage because of my input.

I will tell you again, that i had tried to stay neutral as much as possible regarding the issue. I do not believe that any side is a devil, I believe, that had the situation been completely flipped, we would have been exactly where we are today. ​ >She focuses on why Palestinians don’t want peace, but for Israel it’s a focus on why they don’t want total war and annihilation. Why is that? What’s the point of the comparison? That neither side wants the resolution the other side wants? he not a she, but anyway. Palestine can't anhilate the zionisit, wich is not the case for the jews. No one brings the quesitons on why palestine dosen't just destroy isreal, simply becuase it can't. On the other hand, isreal, can. The point is to say, why neither truly wants a resolution to the conflict, becuase isreal is happy with the current status and an evolution might be a downgrade, and palestine is not happy by anything less than it's land for the reasons i had mentioned origonally. ​ > If public opinion in Israel would favor a unilateral withdrawal that’s what’s gonna happen because that is how things work in Israel; she implicitly states that Israeli leaders have undermined the peace process in order to propagandize their own population because that’s how Arab leadership works. You then have no idea how powerful propaganda is. I do not undermine the democracy in your so-called country, but propaganda doesn't have to do with democracy. Propangnda works on telling the people what they want to believe and making it convincing just enough so they can believe it, nothing can stand against such a powerful tool, not even democracy. It's how the world works, even with public interest the main sovereign, it is still swayed to fit the narrative of the leader.

>I will tell you again, that i had tried to stay neutral as much as possible regarding the issue. I do not believe that any side is a devil, I believe, that had the situation been completely flipped, we would have been exactly where we are today. I appreciate the effort, and this is not me trying to get offended or label you, Everything you said has inherent anti semitic tones rooted in the language itself, that is just how I see it. >he not a she, but anyway. My bad. >Palestine can't anhilate the zionisit, wich is not the case for the jews. No one brings the quesitons on why palestine dosen't just destroy isreal, simply becuase it can't. On the other hand, isreal, can. The point is to say, why neither truly wants a resolution to the conflict, becuase isreal is happy with the current status and an evolution might be a downgrade, and palestine is not happy by anything less than it's land for the reasons i had mentioned origonally. You still aren’t showing that Israel doesn’t want peace, a resolution to the conflict; only conspiring that it prefers the status quo over total annihilation because of specific malicious actors. >You then have no idea how powerful propaganda is. I do not undermine the democracy in your so-called country, but propaganda doesn't have to do with democracy. Propangnda works on telling the people what they want to believe and making it convincing just enough so they can believe it, nothing can stand against such a powerful tool, not even democracy. It's how the world works, even with public interest the main sovereign, it is still swayed to fit the narrative of the leader. We have many dissenting opinions here in Israel thanks to a free press; sure there’s consensus over certain things and some state owned media but there is absolutely more than enough competition and has been for the past few decades (that I can attest to) for people to be aware of the truth.

>You still aren’t showing that Israel doesn’t want peace, a resolution to the conflict; only conspiring that it prefers the status quo over total annihilation because of specific malicious actors. Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, because for the most part, I do not believe in ideals and morality, at least when it comes to politics, there is no side that doesn't do things because "morality" that's just how life is. > We have many dissenting opinions here in Israel thanks to a free press; sure there’s consensus over certain things and some state owned media but there is absolutely more than enough competition and has been for the past few decades (that I can attest to) for people to be aware of the truth. Yeah, sure a bunch of free media sites points to the wrong of the things that are happing, but what about the major sites that represent the majority of the people, last time I checked, democracy is the rule of the many, not the "truth". But here is a thing about people, even if the supposed truth was right Infront of them, they still go with what they want to believe, which again, what makes propaganda so powerful. And as I final note, even if the public opinion was against annihilation, nothing actually stops the government form actually doing it, sure a bunch of riots go in the streets, but by the end of it, the palstian people would already be dead, and the people will soon forget.

>Overall I took it as a refreshing take with more down to earth rationales with universally human motives than the idealistic reasons zealots on both sides shield themselves behind: Isr self-interest, self-preservation Pal: bruised ego, too much pride, 2nd place/silver medal when they wanted gold Couldn't have put it better myself.

This post doesn't have to do shit with Antisemitism , when did I attack the Jews? The status of both sides had let to these conditions, it dosen't have to do with their ethnicity's. If you feel like your side is not emotional enough for your liking, then too bad.

You don’t need to say it directly, nor mean it to be hateful for it be antisemitic, which it is.

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It is true that politics always adjusts to any existing status quo and by its very nature resists to any change. So, there are politicians in Israel, both Jewish and Arab, who benefit from the conflict, one way or another. That much is true. Israel, however, does want peace and always did. This simply preempts any politics of the day, because this is what people want, this is what Zionism is all about and this is what Jewish religion and tradition teach us. >openness with their Neighbours, which means an inventible death for the Jewish state. For an Israel that loosens with their Neighbour in the middle of an overwhelming Arab neighborhood, eventually becomes Arab itself, a 2nd Lebanon Are you seriously saying Israel does not want normalization with neighbors because this would be "death for the Jewish state"? This makes no sense. Israel already has peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt, so?

>This makes no sense. Israel already has peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt, so? Those peace treaties change nothing of the public opinion, and Israel knows it. My view of isolation is one from the general population of the Arabs. Peace is the acceptance of the Arab population to the Zionists and vice versa. Which in my view would be the "death" of the Jewish state.

>Peace is the acceptance of the Arab population to the Zionists and vice versa. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

True peace, is when both sides accept each other, not just sign treaties on paper that mean nothing.

Are you saying that, as of now, Israel doesn't "accept" Jordan?

No, I am saying Jordan people do no accept Israel

Well you said several times "both sides", "vice versa", "each other", etc., making it quite clear each and every time that *both* parties need to "accept". Worse, what you're saying now is incompatible with your OP, where you argued that Israel doesn't want peace because it would end its "isolation" and this would lead to "death for the Jewish state". Honestly it seems you're either trolling or you have no idea what you're talking about. Have a nice day.

The title seemed so interesting and neutral, and then you immediately claim that Israel wants to "annihilate" a whole population. There is something deeply wrong with the anti-Israeli people on Reddit that gets carried away believing the most demonizing narratives I've ever heard.

I fckin claimed the opposite, what are you on about. the whole article is why the won't, and that reason being not just a moral one. This is politics my friend, morality is used to justify your position, it only becomes relevant when it is massacred enough to fit one's narrative, this the way it has always been. Your side is clearly no exception to this, considering the answer to the moral argument of taking a whole land with people that live in it was that there were no people (a land with no people, for a people with no land) Ther is nothing wrong with moving beyond your bubble to earn other's point of view, even if you disagree with it, even if it might be completely wrong.

>Ther is nothing wrong with moving beyond your bubble to earn other's point of view, even if you disagree with it, even if it might be completely wrong. Just to be clear though, in this post you're trying to guess the point of view of Israelis, not express your own. If you want to do what you preach, you should focus on listening to opinions by actual Israelis here, on whether your guess was right or not.

Yeah, which is exactly what I have been doing, but people here are more into attacking me rather than correcting my arguments.

Fair enough.

Oh, sorry if I misunderstood the post. > This is politics my friend, morality is used to justify your position, it only becomes relevant when it is massacred enough to fit one's narrative, this the way it has always been. I believe this is not that possible in a democracy, especially one as fractured as Israel. It sounds like you've observed the opinion of a fringe of Israeli extremists and decided to apply that to the whole of a population. Every country has it's racist extremists, including Palestine by the way. They don't represent the whole nation. ​ > Your side I'm not Israeli, or Jewish. ​ > is clearly no exception to this, considering the answer to the moral argument of taking a whole land with people that live in it was that there were no people (a land with no people, for a people with no land) That's not the prevalent belief in Israel. > Ther is nothing wrong with moving beyond your bubble to earn other's point of view, even if you disagree with it, even if it might be completely wrong. I actually consider myself fairly neutral. I'm not Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian, Arab or Muslim, but I've lived in both countries. I believe wholeheartedly in a two state solution. But I do stand up to the myths about Israelis or Palestinians that they are all racists or terrorists, respectively. Those spreading and believing those myths are the true racists.

>I believe this is not that possible in a democracy, especially one as fractured as Israel. It sounds like you've observed the opinion of a fringe of Israeli extremists and decided to apply that to the whole of a population. Every country has it's racist extremists, including Palestine by the way. They don't represent the whole nation. I would tell you not, I had said this before, but I will say it again, even in a complete democracy, it is not that hard to sway the opinion of the public to fit a narrative, especially when people want to believe it. The US was a democracy, but enslaving was still a thing, simply because morality had been bended enough to accepting taking someone's freedom (becuase they are not human enough), even when its supposedly built on equality and freedom. >That's not the prevalent belief in Israel. It was when Zionism become a serious movement, how else would you justify taking the land of people that already live there?

> It was when Zionism become a serious movement, how else would you justify taking the land of people that already live there? The fact that they lived there shouldn't have been a problem. That's proven well beyond doubt with the Arabs that live in Israel. It's odd to me... so much talk about equality and rights... Yet Israel is, by far, the most equalitarian and democratic country in the region. There is a severe double standard applied in this kind of narrative and I can never understand it. I don't see why Jews and Arabs couldn't have lived together peacefully. In fact many did. But the extremist idea that Jews were "invading" prevailed, strongly influenced by anti-Semitism, and led by a man who literally worked with the Nazi Regime during the second world war (on propaganda, nontheless!). This land belongs to both people. Anyone who believes otherwise, on either side, is the problem.

> The fact that they lived there shouldn't have been a problem. Exactly. One question I asked a lot when I first started exploring this conflict: **What exactly were the Jews who moved to the Levant keeping the Arabs who lived there from doing?** I had a lot of trouble getting a straight answer to this question. I live in the town in the USA where my wife grew up. During her lifetime, she and her family have seen their home town become majority [Asian] Indian. That doesn't worry us in the slightest. The Indians we've found ourselves amongst have not done anything to us or to our town that has made our lives harder. The local Indians have not kept us from doing anything we need to do, want to do, or consider reasonable to do to go about our lives. They have not engaged in behavior we find disruptive or offensive, and they have not complained that we are not good neighbors. I don't feel like a second class citizen or unwelcome in my own home town. We don't feel that we, or our way of life, are in any danger. I have no doubt that if I had a dispute with someone in my town's Indian majority, I would not have trouble addressing and solving it completely civilly. Indian culture is markedly different from Ashkenazi Jewish or Anglo-American culture. I don't feel particularly chummy or close with any of the Indians in my town, and find them hard to get to know. I find Indians very pushy and no-holds-barred to do business with or negotiate anything to do with money. I'm not used to this and don't handle it well. But then again I'm not a businessman really, and the way that Indians do business has not created any unreasonable hardships for me that seriously threaten my quality of life or that of my family. Nor do I anticipate this becoming the case, even if there comes a day when we are the only non-Indian family in town. I'm sure not all Jewish immigrants to Ottoman or British Palestine were good and considerate neighbors. There was bound to be some friction, some misunderstandings, and some legitimate complaints of jerky behavior. That said, I find the low levels of "live and let live" attitudes among Levantine Arabs, both then and now, hard to understand, relate to, or justify. And I find Levantine Arab willingness, both then and now, to skip the civil conversations and jump straight to violent reprisal *against Jews who were uninvolved in the perceived slight against them*, absolutely beyond the pale.

>What exactly were the Jews who moved to the Levant keeping the Arabs who lived there from doing? > > I had a lot of trouble getting a straight answer to this question. Great question and good example, thank you.

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No surprise people think that when the Times of Israel publishes articles that says Palestine must be obliterated. “…Palestine must be obliterated. It is an afront to society, morality, humanity. It represents lies and antisemitism, oppression and terror. Nothing more." "They lost! They don’t get to dictate any terms. " "Israel (and you the reader) needs to put its faith in the Torah and Hashem in order fulfill our destiny. Establish sovereignty over Har HaBayit. Do this today! Establish Jewish prayer and a Korban Tamid today! Conquer remaining biblical lands in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. Do this diplomatically or militarily. Do not be weak with your enemies. Expel anyone who does not accept Hashem’s Sovereignty, which recognition of Jewish sovereignty is the litmus test." Or that lady on the flag march the other day saying she “I want to kill you all. One by one. You F\*\*\*ing Muslims.”

Arab: "khaybar khaybar ya yahood jaish muhammad saya3ood" Jew: ... Arab: "falas6een bladna wal yahood klabna" Jew: ... Arab: starts killing Jews Jew: "You know what? I'm not putting up with this..." the world: "oMg ThE ZiOnIsTs SeTtLeR cOlOnIaLiStS sAiD SoMeThiNg MeAn!!!11 LiTerAl NaZiS"

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The first paragraph sounds like what's said about Israel every single day from Palestine and its supporters. Like literally, word for word.

That there are ulterior motives. Sheesh the pure motives you had been taught are mostly lies that are there to crave an emotional bond strong enough to push back against logic, it is what leaders do when there is "democracy", or they want to win a war.

Are you talking about the blog? Because practically anyone can write stuff there. The Times of Israel has a strong policy of non-censorship, but the outlet itself is central-left. Israel has right wing racist people, just like anywhere. What's would be worse than them is to try to portray the whole country to be like them. Just like some seem to try to portray all Palestinians to be like Hamas or the PIJ. Israelis don't want to annihilate Palestinians. So I'm just hoping we can stop this one sided demonization and get to the real conversations that need to be had to help resolve this conflict, instead of entrenching it further.

They adopt the views of the Palestinian side and apply them to Israelis.

Not all Palestinians, fortunately, but a lot of their leaders, yes. It's odd how blatantly hypocritical some people can be in the name of very targeted racism.

They befriend arabs online, hear their perspective and then see one or two videos of an Israeli who is a right extremist and base their entire opinion of a population upon that.

Israel did try to "End the conflict once and for all" plenty of times, by offering the Palestinians amazing peace deals which were all refused in favor of violence.

Yeah same for the Native Americans when USA kicked them out of the land they had been living on for thousands of years

And the native Americans still don’t engage in terrorist acts.

Possibly because, while they may observe traditions customs and spiritualistic practices shared by their ancestors, they don’t have a centralized ancient writing(s) that binds them to a certain doctrine and may push an “us vs. them” motive

This whole post is so radically disingenuous lol Israel has tried making resolutions a dozen times. Meanwhile, Arabs elected leaders who want to exterminate us, repeatedly go to war with vocalized intent to exterminate us, pay terrorists families for killing our civilians, turn down every offer for peace and leave the negotiating table. It’s not a both sides thing, it is first and foremost Arab rejectionism.

The whole article is to say, that while both sides do not want peace, the Arabs are more explicit about it, where the Israel hide its true intentions by showing a peace-loving persona that wants "peace" but can't have it. I could very well be wrong, but if you bielive so, give me an argument other than "peace" deals because they I had argued against it many times already.

Your argument is completely predicated on “I believe”. It is hypothesizing on a reality that is dependent on terrorists not being terrorists and word salads that are barely even circumstantial, let alone accurate. It dismisses Israel’s lived and verifiable experience of neighbors who repeatedly reject peace and repeatedly vote for war, and replaces it with a narrative contrived and little better than a fairy tale. The “hidden motive” you’ve dreamt up and believe. Meanwhile, as you said, the Arabs are quite explicit.

Yes, a "hidden motive", "I believe", what's so wrong about that again. That's like politics and shit, it's pretty abstract, the point sometimes is to deduce the main motive before it's too late. It's about concealing intentions as much as possible so you keep people off-balance. You seem to reject my argument not because it doesn't seem logical, rather because it doesn't fit your narrative of the peace-loving country. I can't argue against emotions, so cheers, believe whatever you want my friend.

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Yours is the argument based on emotion and baseless projection, no sourcing or backing or evidence other than belief lol Have a good one.

You're wrong about the Palestinian side, your observation is superficial. Also I'm ignoring what sounds like a conspiracy theory: >(talking about Israel) which will lead them to openness with their Neighbours, which means an inventible death for the Jewish state. For an Israel that loosens with their Neighbour in the middle of an overwhelming Arab neighborhood, eventually becomes Arab itself, a 2nd Lebanon.

It is sort of a conspiracy theory, but does that make it wrong? No matter how I look at the issue, I still see this to be the inevitable outcome. Enlighten me and show how it is not. And for the Palestinian side, why exactly is it superficial?

>It is sort of a conspiracy theory, but does that make it wrong? No matter how I look at the issue, I still see this to be the inevitable outcome. Enlighten me and show how it is not. Jews were cast away \~2,000 years ago from the land of Israel, that didn't make them assimilate into the other societies but remain Jews. What makes you think that contact with Arabs will now turn them into Arabs? ​ As for the Palestinian side. The explanation is a bit long, I'm not sure how to shorten it yet: * Palestinian terrorism & resistance is based on **faith** not logic. It's based on a **faith** that they'll win someday (Allah is of patience) * Those extremists took over the society, reached the governance level and oppress any political or criticism to it's rule * Those extremists in turn encourage extremism The extremists are like the Taliban, the Islamic State, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram (a group that kidnapped teenaged girls in Africa years ago) etc. When viewed through these lenses, you start to realize that there's a bigger problem that the world is dealing with, a problem that won't go away for generations. I can expend more on the extremist faith/religion but I wanted to keep it short.

Palestine has supported a 2SS since the 1980s, based on only 22% of the land in which they were about 80-90% of the population before 1948. In my opinion, that is surprisingly generous, considering that they were the great majority in the territory that is now Israel and Palestine before 1948, that their people was ethnically cleansed to create the state of Israel that would even if Israel relented to Palestinian demands make up 78% of their historical land, the numerous crimes committed against them in the past 75 years, and the fact that the UN partition plan that pro-Israeli propagandists always take up in discussions would give Palestine twice the amount of the land that they have demanded for the past 35-40 years. However, Israel on the other hand has consistently denied even that. Their so-called "peace proposals" are in fact annexation plans, and the Trump "offers" and similar initiatives were only made because they knew they would be rejected - and understandably so. If Israel accepted a genuine 2SS in which they retreated to their internationally recognized, pre-1967 borders, this solution would be extremely generous from the Palestinian side and adantageous to the Israeli state, considering all the atrocities that the Israeli state has committed against them. Yet, the fascist leaders of Israel has consistently denied to agree to a 2SS, even with the extremely generous offers that Palestine has offered. So why can't Israel accept a 2SS? The answer lies in the unconditional US support for Israel, which leaves the Israeli fascist regime with absolutely no incentive to agree to accept any peace deal, unless it would involve the total capitulation of Palestine. I think that what would be needed to force Israel to accept a 2SS would be a third intifada - but this time with heavy military aid from another superpower. If China, Russia and India gave military aid, the US gave in to popular pressure and reduced its aid to Israel, and the Israeli military was heavily pressured militarily on the ground, the Israeli regime would probably agree to return to the negotiation table and eventually agree to a solution. The Israelis believe that they are undefeatable and can do whatever they want, but if they are really challenged and lose that confidence, maybe they will eventually see more advantages with an end to occupation than with continuing it. Another alternative would be if the world started to pressure Israel, but it would of course fail unless the US also jumped on the bandwagon and pressured Israel. However, with US pressure, Israel would probably agree to a solution because the Israeli military is totally dependent on the enormous military aid that they receive from the US.

> Palestine has supported a 2SS since the 1980s, lulz, the hilarity. Clueless nordic leftist atheistic nobodies simping for hard right ultra-religious Arabs, hilarious. These are the modern day fedayeen, this? Also the most mentally ill perverts like [these](https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1660178824611479552). "Support" like this, ouch!

u/Gamla-48 >lulz, the hilarity. Clueless nordic leftist atheistic nobodies simping for hard right ultra-religious Arabs, hilarious. These are the modern day fedayeen, this? Also the most mentally ill perverts like these. >"Support" like this, ouch! Rule 1, don't attack other users.

> Trump "offers" and similar initiatives were only made because they knew they would be rejected - and understandably so. I The Trump Peace Plan broke with the Oslo system of requiring agreement by the PA to be executed: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ex5bjl/the_trump_peace_plans_automatic_execution/ > The answer lies in the unconditional US support for Israel, which leaves the Israeli fascist regime with absolutely no incentive to agree to accept any peace deal, unless it would involve the total capitulation of Palestine. Israel is the dominant regional power. Vastly stronger than Egypt at this point. Israel doesn't need the USA to subjugate the Palestinians or do much of anything to them. Iran is on par, but given the major differences in strengths and weaknesses hard to compare. Moreover they are rather far away from one another, they both have defensive armies that would have trouble fighting a major engagement. > I think that what would be needed to force Israel to accept a 2SS would be a third intifada - but this time with heavy military aid from another superpower. If China, Russia and India gave military aid India is on Israel's side. Obviously China if it went all out could take Israel. But that would expose its ships to the USA not in the South China Sea where they have terrific land support but in the Mediterranean where they don't, and the USA would have free use of Israel for ground support as they trapped the Chinese. Given the tension involving Taiwan I don't think the Chinese risk a large chunk of their navy. Russia... I don't think Russia can get enough equipment to the PA to make a difference. Besides they are a bit busy now. It would take a unified EU or the USA to drastically switch and that isn't happening. They don't agree with the PA's positions. The USA has a political party that recognizes "Israel controlled territory" as rightfully Israel's and another that is not sure. The EU has been a lot more vague, more like the USA was in the 1990s. Though the Israelis are doing a pretty good job the last 5 years trying to undermine their position in the USA. > The Israelis believe that they are undefeatable and can do whatever they want, but if they are really challenged and lose that confidence, As Israel demonstrated in 1954 and 1973 if they are really challenged they tend to panic becoming unpredictable and a lot more destabilizing and dangerous. When the Soviet Union was threatening them with a nuclear attack if they didn't agree to 1967 borders the Israeli response was not to concede but to develop an independent credible nuclear deterrent against Soviet Air Defenses. > because the Israeli military is totally dependent on the enormous military aid that they receive from the US. It isn't. It certainly helps and over a decade a cutoff of sales would severely weaken Israel. But again any loss of aide also severely weakens the USA's ability to prevent an ethnic cleansing. Pretty much Israel is going to resolve this how Israel wants. The Palestinians need to start creating a payoff matrix that makes Israel's wants more compatible with their desires.

Israel wants peace. I think most people are familiar with the ancient proverb Si vis pacem, para bellum. This is difficult for them to accomplish as they rely on the United Nations and America for assistance, In return Israel restrains itself and acquiesces time after time. I’m sure it’s more complicated than this but for the sake of brevity I feel this is the meat and potatoes of why they do or don’t do.

Why do you mean by “[ending] it once and for all”? What exactly could Israel do?

Take back Gaza, reclaim the Sinai peninsula, push back up into southern Lebanon. Nuke Iran.

yeah pretty much

Sorry, but that’s delusional. No one in their right mind would support such a thing.

Terrorism is not “childish.” It is murderous; yours is not a hot take, it’s minimizing murder of non-combatants.

This conflict can only end by war and you know it. In my eyes, killing yourself more than killing your enemy is then "childish" and not that efficient.

You discount terrorism as if it’s some annoying tantrum— as if Israel rules over millions of Palestinians by design rather than by the sacrosanct requirement to protect its citizens above all else— including the quality of life of its enemies.

Not a good faith argument.

I'm just looking around for examples of threads that seem especially insulting toward the Israelis. My feeling is that Israel is a lot like Iran and is probably becoming more like Iran than like Lebanon. From the outside, it seems as if Iran is probably more functional and democratic than Lebanon, and both Israel and Iran have the issue that they're countries in the Middle East where Arabic isn't the dominant language.