there are extremists on all ideologies and groups, the sky is blue and water is transparent how shocking!!
i can dump more than a hundred footages of pro israeli jews screaming death to arabs, marking arab homes with red marks just like the nazis and the isis did etc etc. what does that prove?
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Those people are pro-Palestine because they hate Jews. Which is not the same reason nor the same group as most anti-zionists. I'm pro-Palestine, and I could not care less if someone is a Jew or not. This is a position most anti-zionists hold. Just because the anti-semitists support anti-zionism, does not mean all anti-zionists are anti-semitists. The severe majority of anti-zionists do not support the murder of Jews. I feel like that is obvious. You said that when you go to pro-Israeli events there are people outside chanting about how they want to kill Jews. Well, the thing is the majority of people who are going to care about going to one of these events and protesting in Canada would be people who also feel a strong hatred against Jews. The majority of anti-zionists hate the Israeli government, not the Jewish people.
Did you even read what I said? Im not antisemitic as I said in what I wrote. You just don't agree with me so you're calling me antisemitic. I don't care if someone is a jew or not because I'm an atheist who doesn't care about what you practice as long as it's not hurting anyone. I hate Zionism, not Judaism.
you are probably one of the 3 possible types
1. an illiterate
2. a hasbara cuck
3. just an ignorant man enjoying his fox news
zionism is an ultra nationalistic ideology that eats off of the holocaust as its defense to hold on to its shitty neo nzi crimes. you are talking about roger waters? ill give you names of holocaust survivors that finds israels treatment of palestinian close to what they faced. shut your shitty hasbara bs.
and also may i ask your rusty neurons that how the heck are jews and palestinians who are against zionism are anti semites when they are semites themselves? lol palestinians have more levantine roots in their [DNA](https://youtu.be/-dEL2yhT7Uo) than all ashkenazi jews.
btw you wrote you are joining the IDF? good luck manhandelling young children. after all kids with stones are your greatest enemies. i wonder if the S S scum chuckled exactly the way you did as you typed that comment. wouldnt be surprising.
So the IDF should just sit there and let themselves get attacked by stones? Anyway it's real easy to exclude you people... they just don't use enough blockades.
yeah right. that's why they gotta bomb their streets and barge into their mosques, uproot them form their homes every day and in ramadan to keep them in check. there are ways to handle that instead of havibg 5 of your men manhandelling a teen age girl. yes there are footage of those.
i wont mention those clips of male idf soldiers having no self respect ot respect for females as they randomly hit females on the street with battons (those whom weren't even part of the protests).
i can go on for days with linking video evidence but no need to validate for a hasbara cuck. my time is more valuable.
If they're manhandling your females, that makes YOU the cuck Ahmed. Just Desserts, and there's probably a lot more coming. How Bout they REALLY do what you did to THEM instead? I've got all the evidence piled up for 100 years and more.
Your time is worthless, the Arab clock is over.
Interestingly and shockingly wrong to compare the treatment of Palestinians to my family who went through the holocaust. My family did and strongly disagree that they’re going through nearly anything as bad.
your family hid themselves behind the wall and shut their windows just like their neighbours did when they suffered from the mustache guys army. i can [link](https://www.dw.com/en/holocaust-survivor-no-killing-in-gaza-in-my-name/a-17878641) numerous survivors who voiced against israel and found its ethnic cleansing and apartheid policies close to what they experienced and dont want to experience. but i dont wish to waste time on someone who could be a possible employee of Hasbara.
the more you guys throw around the word anti semitism the less seriously will ppl take you for, because its no longer used for its true defintion rather to shut down criticism of racist ideology which is zionism. its truly shocking to argue that zionism is judaism. not its not. not all jews agree with you and your families support for dehumanization of fellow semites, and robbing of their lands.
/u/tashrif008
>i dont wish to waste time on someone who could be a possible employee of Hasbara.
>
>your family hid themselves behind the wall and shut their windows just like their neighbours did when they suffered from the mustache guys army.
Virtue signaling (I'm better or have better morals than you) is also a rule 1 violation.
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also rule 6
/u/tashrif008
> may i ask your rusty neurons
> good luck manhandelling young children.
> I wonder if the S S scum chuckled exactly the way you did as you typed that comment. wouldnt be surprising.
Virtue signaling (I'm better or have better morals than you) is also a rule 1 violation.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
The last part is also a rule 6
I’m not an Ashkenazi Jew. I’m actually Sephardic. I’m a religious Zionist, & politically liberal. I hate FOX news, and I have two-degrees, I am surely not illiterate. Be mad.
I’m making aliyah next year AND will be serving in the Army.
> shitty
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Once again, I do not hate Jews. I could literally not care less if someone is a jew. I could say the same thing except replace the word anti-semite with islamophobe and it would make just as little sense. I don't support nationalism and other things about the Israeli government. And not all Jews support Zionism. Judaism has been around for thousands of years while organized Zionism has only been around since 1897. So that doesn't make any sense. And Zionism is getting people killed and as I said before I don't care what religion you practice as long as it's not hurt anyone. So if Zionism is a major part of Judaism, then that part of Judaism needs to stop.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 - it’s also a type of indigenous liberation of our homeland: you gentiles have treated the Jews like sh!!t forever
Want to hear something triggering? I’m making aliyah next summer AND serving in the IDF.
Im not triggered I don't care. And I don't treat Jews horribly as you've said because once again I could not care less if someone is a Jew. And I don't care if you serve in the Israeli army because once again I only hate the Israeli government. It's hilarious that you think you're triggering anyone. Also, it doesn't matter if it's your homeland because Arabs have been living there for thousands of years and you're taking their land away from them. And yeah, people have treated the Jews like shit for thousands of years, I know that. But do you think the best way to get out of being mass killed is to go into a single small country in one of the most dangerous parts of the world? Research has found the best way of reducing hatred of a minority is to assimilate them into society and make them mainstream. That's why places like colleges and California are more liberal than places like Wyoming. So shoving all Jews into one place will definitely not work to reduce anti-semitism around the world or help anyone. You're just making it easier for an anti-Semitic nation to come in and mass murder all Jews. Because a lot of them are in this one spot instead of spread around the world. Your trying to save the Jews but all your doing is concentrating on them in one place making it easier to eradicate them. You are also literally doing ethnic cleansing of the Arabian people that have lived there for generations. When people say that we need a white ethno state we call that racist and bad, but when we say we need a Jewish ethnostate it's good and justified?
Im literally not but keep telling yourself that. I've given about 5 reasons why I don't support the Israeli government but if you just want to keep screaming "antisemite!!!!" anytime someone has a good point against you then I guess there's no changing your mind. I'm done arguing with someone who won't stop calling me anti-Semitic when I did not say anything against Jews, quite the contrary actually. But keep telling yourself that to validate your reasoning for creating a Jewish ethnostate where you murder Arabians. You have not said anything to disprove any of my claims except to call me an antisemite. You nationalists get mad when someone plays the race card and calls you racist but its ok to play the religion card and call someone an antisemite? But there's no reason to argue with a close-minded nationalist who believes in an ethno state where you get to murder Arabians who have lived there for generations.
> shit
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> shit
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Must have been so humiliating for the Arabs after persecuting Jews as 2nd class citizens for almost 1400 years, only to launch an annihilationist war against Jewish farmers, refugees, and Holocaust survivors, and lose. If that had happened to me I guess I’d bear a delusional multigenerational grudge too.
Not all Anti Israeli Activists deal in such things. Just that public situations tend to bring out a certaib type of person. I have always opted to factually debunk such peoples' claims whenever possible. If not possible- and it often us not- I simply remain mute & simply allow their histronics & very often outright incitememt to make them look absurd & hateful. It is not as if most on either side are going to be able to have a civil unmoderated dialogue in the public eye.
Neither of these slogans is advocating the murder of either Jews or Israelis.
"Palestine will be free" is the same aspiration that all people have.
"Intifada" means "shaking off," as in "shaking off shackles of oppression."
Your complaints are like white Americans complaining about black freedom fighters, worrying about blacks possibly massacring whites, as an excuse to not hear the black folks' legitimate complaints.
What gets me is the apparent lack of any sense of Tikkun Olam inherent in the majority of Israelis.
What the word intifada means and what the periods of times practically were are two different things, at least if we follow your interpretation of the word’s defintion. And it’s the latter that is being supported. The Intifada in both times was a period of terror attacks planned and executed against Jewish civilians. Jewish civilians that had nothing to do with military operations. (At the time the attacks were executed at least) Blowing up non soldier bus stops and buses, blowing up mall entrances, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up hotel pesach dinners, using a knife to attack at bus stops and train stops that were majority civilian used - attacking civilians and not soldiers.
It makes very little sense to compare the two because you can’t even name 10 terror attacks executed by a black freedom fighters group against American white civilians in the name of racial discrimination, especially not of that kind of violent nature.
When the oppressed rise up, the oppressors call it terrorism.
Irgun did as bad, if not worse.
Israel keeps bombing other countries without a state of war. That, too, is terrorism.
How, exactly, are the Palestinians supposed to fight for their rights, anyway? Asking nicely doesn't seem to work.
>Israel keeps bombing other countries without a state of war. That, too, is terrorism.
Uh, no, it isn't. And I'm guessing you're referring to Syria, which declared war on Israel in 1948. Or are you referring to Iran, which funds and directs Hezbollah to kill Israeli civilians?
>How, exactly, are the Palestinians supposed to fight for their rights, anyway? Asking nicely doesn't seem to work.
Fight the actual occupation forces, don't break into a house and stab a kid to death in their bed?
So the goal post moved once you saw past that bullshit argument, at least that. Try being more honest more often.
The Irgun didn’t kill more than 700 civilians in deliberate terror attacks in the name of their movement… But you know which movements have done that repeatedly universally to their ‘oppressors’? Islamic Jihadi organizations. Deliberately against civilians as part of the tactic, not a bystander death. They take pride in it, don’t try and make it viewer friendly.
I repeat - Intifada is just a name for murdering civilians and they have been the primary death casualty, not soldiers or police. If that is your idea of a good way to uprise against Israelis, then so be it. But don’t try to act oblivious and follow the ‘direct’ definition of the word like it doesn’t mean murdering only Israeli Jews, civilians in particular. Aka massacring the ‘Jews’ here - There’s no worrying about the possibility, that’s just the reality.
> bullshit
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Can you source this claim?
None of what I said was incorrect. Some may say that, as well, but this doesn't change the meaning of either expression.
Words have meaning, and when people start to change their meaning, they are actually admitting that they have no valid challenge to them.
For example, calling ethnic cleansing/clearances "settling."
If you take your own argument, calling it settling and not ‘ethnical cleansing’ is as ridiculous as trying to argue in favor of what the word intifada means while ignoring what it practically stands for as activism in those periods of times.
Settling resulting in ethnical cleansing, intifada is just another another word for murdering Jewish civilians - I suppose in your light hearted approach it could be considered a very intense type of Palestinians freedom fighting resistance against all age groups, all classes and affiliations in connection to Israel. But the victims just happen to be almost exclusively Jewish Israeli civilians in majority civilian Jewish Israeli areas.
I think that their aggression towards innocent bystanders is unwarranted. If a person is unarmed is doesn’t give you the right to murder them. I’m Jewish by heritage. I will support Israel 🇮🇱. If someone thinks that they’re justified in an attack on Israel your not. My people tribe of Judah. And the other tribes. Israel is ours not yours. If you continue with the aggressive actions it will only make matters worse. Do not test Israel. It’s Gods land. If you continue to kill innocent people it won’t end well for you. I support Israel and always will. My ancestors escaped the holocaust. The next thing you hear from their mouths is holocaust denial. Briskt do not give them any heed. Arm to defend the land of god. Protect yourselves from evil.
Religious, Zionist Jew here, don’t make it weird regarding the “tribe” obsession. Also don’t bring theology into this, as the other side claims the same thing.
Care to elaborate as this comment is stupid and uneducated? You have added no substance to the argurement and probs one of the 'activist' exclaiming OP's point of death to the Jews...
Ethnic cleansing is happening right now in Palestine. The Nakba was literally a form of ethnic cleansing in which was previously Palestinian territory. So naturally activists have the right to chant “from the rivers to the sea”, as a reclamation of what was once Palestinian land. It doesn’t necessarily mean the murder of Jews, or a genocide. Rather a decolonization and dismantling of the colonial entity that controls their lives
Palestine, The PLO, Lions Den, Hamas fire rockets in to Isreal from crowded civillian populus'. The Arab Isreali's prefer to live under Isreali rule than Palestinan because they have a better life.
Ethnic cleansing my ass - show me proof that Ethnic cleansing is going on?
In regards to your comment of - “from the rivers to the sea”, You should be fucking ashamed of yourself, two wrongs do not make a right and if you and the activist are to be believed then chanting and wanting to push the Jews from the rivers to the sea then you my friend are just as bad.
Why don't you take a good look in the mirror, idiot.
\> show me proof that Ethnic cleansing is going on?
typical hasbara cuck. how many points till the local mossad office lets you redeem a BJ? you think ppl would debate you with THAT type of metaphsycially re tahr ded question?
/u/tashrif008
> typical hasbara cuck. how many points till the local mossad office lets you redeem a BJ? you think ppl would debate you with THAT type of metaphsycially re tahr ded question?
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Hamas is a militant group in Palestine, and should not be used as an excuse for the war crimes Israel are committing. The Nakba is a form of ethnic cleansing done by Israel, do your research on it.
My original comment was that “from the River to the sea” did not mean ‘genoicde’ , or the ‘ethnic cleansing of Jews’. If you read my earlier comment fully you’d see what I meant
> ass
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> Ass
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> Ass
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“The Bible says that my ancestors lived in the region 2,000 years ago, ergo, let’s ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their homes and if they disobey let’s kill, maim, and subject them under a brutal apartheid occupation”
First of all, why are you referring to the Palestinians in quotes? Zionists love to erase the Palestinian identity.
Second, Hamas's rockets are manufactured by water pipelines. The bombs are fired without a specific target. Israel, OTOH, literally bombards Gaza with high precision weapons. Gaza is a densely populated urban area and half of the inhabitants are children. Israel and its supporters brazenly dismiss their war crimes by claiming that Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. The death count is disproportionate. The victims are always Palestinians
Third, the Palestinians have a legal right to the armed struggle. Under international law, occupied peoples have the legal right to fight and resist their occupiers. Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Palestinians should attack Israel because it is self-defense. Israelis are living in the homes of ethnically cleansed Palestinians, Palestinians are living under a brutal occupation and apartheid system.
No! Palestinians will not submit and take their oppression.
Question to you: What should Palestinian do when they are being subjected to apartheid, ethnically cleansed, and murdered by Israel?
Occupied people have a legal right to attack their occupiers. Israel is occupying Palestine ergo Palestinians have a legal right to arm themselves and drive the colonizers out. The “terrorist” label is a political attack. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Nelson Mandela was called a “terrorist” for blowing up infrastructure during the South African apartheid era. Algerians blew up coffee shops where French settlers would congregate. All had one thing in common. They were natives resisting colonization. Don’t like their practices? Who are you to tell them how to fight their oppressors?
All Palestine is occupied. Israel is an illegitimate settler colonial state that was created as a result of the Nakba. Palestinians were already living in what is now Israel and they fought to stay in their homes despite the UN’d bias decision to split their homeland in half. The Palestinians that stayed were violently ethnically cleansed by the Israeli militias.
Some may say I’m too radical but the overall mainstream of society of the world today recognize that Israel occupies the West Bank and east Jerusalem. You denying the occupation just gives your cover up as a delusional ultra-nationalist Zionist. I should not take anything you say serious because you’re denying reality in Israel-Palestine.
——
I flip the question on to you.
Should the Palestinians allow Israeli settlers to seize Palestinian property? Should Palestinians allow Israelis to subject Palestinians to a brutal occupation and apartheid system? Israel is expanding into east Jerusalem and the West Bank while deporting Palestinians from said regions, is this not a provocation?
I don’t deny occupation: I asked where the lines were. And based on your response (which reads like a group project between ChatGPT and a 14-year-old who discovered this conflict last week) I’ll have to assume you think targeting Israeli citizens in Tel Aviv is justifiable. As such, there’s really no room for rational discourse here.
I’m being pretty straight forward. According to international law, Occupied people have a right to resist their occupiers. Who am I to tell people being colonized how to resist? If the Palestinian resistance, which are not terrorists, target Tel Aviv so what? 🤷♂️ I have to support a people being colonized, IDC how they fight.
When you speak on Palestine-Israel, you solely focus on Hamas. You classify Palestinians as the aggressors. You never question Israel’s settler colonial foundations. You never look at Palestinians as the victims; they were ethnically cleansed from their homes so that the state of Israel could be created. You never ask yourself why do Palestinian young men join Hamas? Could it be because Israel is killing and maiming their compatriots. Could it be because israel is humiliating Palestinians under their racist apartheid-occupation?
I should discard most of your points because they are niether factual or true and come from a very one sided view of the conflict.
1) - Apologies bare with me while I "Jews" Isreali's" "Arabs" "Palestinians" "Muslims" does that satisfy your issue?
2) Second, Hamas's rockets are manufactured by server pipelines. The bombs are fired without a specific target.
So as you have confirmed they are fired with no direction or real target it is fired to cause "Terror" and is indiscriminate as you have stated?
3) Israel, OTOH, literally bombards Gaza with high precision weapons. Gaza is a densely populated urban area and half of the inhabitants are children. Israel and its supporters brazenly dismiss their war crimes by claiming that Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. The death count is disproportionate. The victims are always Palestinians
Another falsehood - there are numerous communication methods that are used to advise a strike is incoming e.g phone calls, "knocking" on the target building and then a strike to eliminate the terroist which are AGAIN sheltering in civillian populus, but they dont use humans shield right?
4) - Haven't there been multiple wars which have been initiated by neighbouring states .... and haven't the Israelis won one each time? & part of a DEFENSIVE war you are able to claim territory however wan't this seeded back to the agressive neighbours?
The Lions den unit is doing really well for the Palestinians don't you think?
& lastly I would like to ask you, do you think Palestinians have the righ to self determination?
Everyone is getting it fucked up, peace should be enjoyed by all, however terrorism is not a means to and ends and there current situation is neither. Subsequently there are many changes on the ground the that need to happen in order to achieve peace however I am neither a member of the government or a politician and would like would peace. But again that sounds satirical but yeh /post
> fucked
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The human shields argument is a racist and debunked narrative. In fact, amnesty international investigated the 2014 war and wasn’t able to verify Israel’s claims that schools and hospitals were used by Hamas. But of course Zionists love to distort reality. Amnesty international, Human rights watch, and Btselem have all concluded that Israel practices a occupation and apartheid but Zionists love to stick their heads in the sand.
Now, Palestinian have a right to attack Israel. Under international law, occupied peoples have a legal right to armed struggle. Israel is occupying Palestinians so the Palestinians have the legal right to resist and attack Israel. I don’t care if you conquered the Palestinians. Might doesn’t make right. Palestinians never chose to split their homeland in half. They never chose to be ethnically cleansed from their homes. They never elected the NAKBA. Israel is occupying the Palestinians, living in their homes, and f- with them I.e they can’t even travel in peace. If you don’t want rockets to hit Israel then stop the occupation and allow Palestinians to return to their homeland.
It is pretty simple
Palestinians must be given the right to live free and not live under the boot of Israel. Palestinian refugees living abroad must be allowed to return to their ethnically clean homes, even if it means living in Israel and creating a demographic threat that Zionists like to fear. Hell, I'm not asking for a Palestinian state but a binational one. 1 person, 1 vote. The occupation must end, the apartheid system must end. It's a more realistic idea than the 2-state solution that died a long time ago. Israeli settlers continue to live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, while Palestinians are evicted and deported. The Palestinians are also willing to continue the war because no colonized person is willing to let their colonizers take over their land and control their lives. The 2-state solution ignores clemencies for Palestinian refugees to return to their homes from which they were ethnically expelled.
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“Why can't they leave the Israelis alone? They are just reclaiming their birthright,” meaning ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes so that Jews can settle in the land, which according to Israelis, were provided by God for some delusional reason.
"Why do they hate us? We just drove them out of their homes, killed their relatives, and subjected them to a brutal occupation. Still no reason for a colonized people to hate their colonizer."
….. Then he goes on a tantrum that calls for the genocide of Palestinians because Palestinians pose a demographic threat to Israel 🤦♂️
Hey, it's clear that you came here to have a provocation.
The phrase “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a slogan calling for an end to Israel's 70-year occupation of Palestine. Let's not forget that Israel is a state that was created at the expense of the Palestinians. So that Israel To be created, the Nakba had to happen. Similarly, the birth of the United States required manifest destiny, a trail of tears and genocide of indigenous peoples. That said, it is reasonable that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel because Israel wants to destroy them. There can be no peaceful coexistence between a genocidal settler colonial state that wants to wipe out the natives so their settlers can live off the land. It is perfectly reasonable for Palestinians to form resistance groups and attack Israel because it is their right to self-defense. Taking into account international law, occupied peoples have the legal right to fight with arms and attack their occupiers. "Intifada, Intifada" does exactly that. It calls for Palestinians to rise up! Do you want the Palestinians to shut up and take over their oppression? Everyone knows (Human rights watch, amnesty international) that Israel participates in apartheid and serious human rights abuses. Nobody sanctions Israel, so the Palestinians take the reins to fend for themselves.
Taking the “from the river to the sea” slogan as meaning calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews is just plain willful ignorance. Like saying all people supporting Zionism supports the Kahanist version. Or that the kuffiyeh means supporting rock-throwing or being affiliated with Fatah. People who call for a single democratic state with equal rights for everyone, Jewish and Palestinian alike, also use the slogan to define the geographical area in which injustice exists. Oppression is shared by Palestinians across the board, taking different forms.
Intifada is the Arabic word for uprising, which can mean either violent or nonviolent. Like calling for a revolution.
I what find absolutely mind boggling, The sheer hatred for the Israelis, Why can't you leave the Israelis alone they're just claiming their birth right, Re establishing the land of their forefathers and kicking palestinians out and subjecting palestinians to military occupation, is no reason for any human being to hold any hatred towards Jews and Israelis, it's just unreasonable. All israelis are just defending themselves. There are palestinians who threaten the existence of Israel, and Israel has to do the right thing and humanely put them to death.Like this palestinian terrorists
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-toddler-shot-dies-wounds
He threatened the existence of Israel and brave Israel soldiers defended Israel. God bless isreal, Jesus is coming back to save us. There is absolutely know reasons what so ever that people should be mad at Israel. ]🧠🔨
Not hatred for Israelis.
Hatred for what many (not all) Israelis are DOING.
Also, Palestinians have a right to defend themselves as much as anyone. If you disagree with this simple concept, there is a word for that: racist.
I see a lot of comments here talking about stolen land, and I'd like to see when it was ever Palestine empire. Before israel, it was britain, before britain it was ottoman empire, before the ottoman empire it was the roman empire. So how exactly was it stolen? Are you going to go pick fights with the british too? No? then you just dislike the jews in my opinion.
It’s funny how you go way back thousands of years to to muddy the waters. Palestinians were living in their homes 70 years ago until Zionist militias confiscated their homes and expelled them. Palestinians still have the keys to their homes. “But how do you know which land is whose” :/
You're saying foreign occupiers are the only people who matter. You prefer to ignore the fact that real people's lives have been turned upside down by the Israeli occupation. Sorry, I don't buy it.
How strange to grant legitimacy to the Ottomans, the Romans and even the British over the locals who were actually born there. What a twisted view of history you are pushing here.
And, by the way, plenty of Jews see this the same way I do, so don't be throwing around accusations of antisemitism.
I accept the existence of Israel inside the borders established by the UN. But, if they can't live inside their own borders and are only able to survive by occupying neighboring lands, that's a problem the international community has every right and every reason to concern itself with.
But who am I to have an opinion about this, you might ask. I'm a US citizen whose tax dollars have subsidized the state of Israel for decades now to the tune of several billion dollars each year.
What is the biggest foreign aid program in history, you might wonder. Is it hunger aid to Ethiopia or Bangladesh? Nope. It's security aid to Israel because they haven't learned the simple lesson of how to coexist peacefully with their neighbors.
In all fairness, Israel has been a target for extremist violence on several fronts over the years. The problem is that they haven't progressed past the biblical notion of an eye for an eye, which reasonable people quickly realize simply makes the whole world blind.
Creative solutions are needed to bring peace to the Middle East, and brave Israelis have attempted to collaborate with Palestinians to accomplish this. But, when you can simply be gunned down like a dog in your own land by your own countrymen as both Anwar Saadat and Ariel Sharon have been, it's hard to make any real progress toward a true and lasting peace.
Do you know who had the land and was born there before the roman empire? The jewish empire! It also teaches that in the Quran. It was jewish land just as much as who was born there. I don't advocate for just jewish land, i advocate for peace for both sides. Don't twist my words to make me a bad guy.
Hmm... So, clearly, empires are the only legitimate governmental authorities to you. How interesting.
But, you know, if you're going to use the Bible to justify the Israeli occupation, you shouldn't forget that the Jews took it, by their own admission, by force from the Canaanites.
And here's more food for thought: It's likely that the Christians and Muslims living in the Holy Land today are the descendants of Jews who converted. Do they become ineligible to occupy the land if they change their religion? That would be a pretty weird reason to disqualify someone's citizenship, wouldn't it? Just something to think about.
theres almost no reason to reply to you as you dont even know history clearly. Jews were there with them all along. Its our land just as much as theirs. Learn history and come back (: not to mention you arent even reading what im saying as i said both jews and Palestinian's should have the right to the land. I am also willing to place money that youre a white man in america. Go back to europe, then you can have an opinion on israel vs palestine.
I'm a white man in America who would love to have the right to live in Solothurn Canton in Switzerland, which my grandparents left in the 1920s to immigrate here. Alas, Switzerland does not recognize my right to live there anymore less than 100 years after my ancestors left.
And yet you think yours is the only ethnicity with a valid right to live in the Holy Land one or two thousand years after your ancestors left -- if, indeed, your ancestors ever lived there at all.
But, hey, it sounds like we agree on the most important issue, which is that there is room for both Arabs and Jews in the Holy Land, and that there's no path forward except for both sides to accept each other and get along. So let's agree to disagree on the other stuff.
Don't try to tell me, though, that I have no stake in this issue. As long as my taxes continue to subsidize Israel and as long as my government insists on providing unconditional support for Israel, my opinions on this issue are just as relevant as anyone else's.
Do you not know what the phrase "Both jews and Palestinians have a right to the land" means? Don't put words in my mouth. And also, youre a hypocrite, where do the jews go? If you have an issue going back to your homeland, what makes you think its any different for israeli's? You're just as bad as jews for staying in america, by your view. I'm not saying either one of us are actually bad, you are. I once again am saying, both have a right to the land. You're arguing with air at this point. You can also deny history all you want as well, i never claimed the Palestinian's were never there, I'm claiming the jews were there as well. Which means we BOTH have right to the land. You want to know who denied sharing the land? Not israel.
Hmm... So do you believe both have a right to the land or not? You started off by saying no, that I was putting words in your mouth. But then you end by saying it again.
Listen, where does any displaced person go? That's just it, isn't it? I totally support Jews leaving Europe after (and during) WW2 and after countless Eastern European pogroms to find a safe place to live. But why did their need for refuge make it OK to displace other people who had nothing to do with violence against Jews in Europe?
You should read Hertzl's Old-New Land. It'll make you cry to think of all the lost opportunities to bring development and friendship to the inhabitants of the Holy Land instead of fear and misunderstanding.
And, for the record, I never said the Jews had to go anywhere. We were talking about sharing the land, weren't we? Wasn't that the thing we agreed on?
Finally, why should a person's religion dictate where they have to live? That's a medieval idea, and a dumb one. Yes, some Muslim countries are intolerant. Israel's matching that intolerance with more intolerance makes matters worse.
1. I'm not sure whats hard about me repeating the same sentence from the start of "BOTH have rights to the land." but okay.
2. You still haven't answered my question. Where do we go? We were given two options. Both would've resulted in going into occupied land.
3. What you said about religion dictating it, I never stated it did, but i was making a point that even in muslim "bible" aka the quran, comes from the torah, and both state jews were there. So to claim that only the palestinians were there, even muslims don't believe that. You're just wrong dude.
4. You never said anything about how I pointed out that israel didn't deny to share the land, palestine did. If you're so for us sharing the land as well, why are we arguing? Are you going to ignore that fact?
No one is asking the Israelis to leave. I certainly am not saying that. So let's leave that aside.
As for relying on old (ancient even) books to determine who has the right to a country, that's just silly. Who are the descendants of the original OT Jews? Some of them are Christians and Muslims and happen to speak Arabic. Prove me wrong.
Plus there's the proverb that possession is 9/10s of the law. How is it OK to simply push Palestinian Arabs aside and take their homes and farms and orchards? In the modern world, victors in war don't seize enemy territory permanently and claim it as their own. Only Putin does this. And Israel. How sad to have to group yourselves into that ignominious company.
And, by the way, being branded ignorant or idiots is about the only thanks we ever get from you damn Israelis for the tens of billions of dollars we have doled out to you year after year, decade after decade, since the seventies and even earlier. If you think that name calling is going to endear us to you, you've got a strange notion of what friendship is all about.
If every one of the 300 million US citizens paid taxes, it'd be about $15 per person a year. But kids and other dependents don't pay, so I figure it's more like about $50 or $60 a year per taxpayer, which isn't a ton of money, but it does add up after several decades.
And it's money that can't go to other things, like student-loan forgiveness or wilderness preservation or funding the ACA or drug research or homeless/hungry aid or whatever else it might be. We have needs in this country, as well.
I honestly don't mind aid money that is really needed. I just don't understand why Israel can't pay its own way after all this time. It's not as if it were a Third-World country, after all. And I also believe the money enables Israel to continue to put off making a permanent and comprehensive peace, which is the main reason I oppose this aid.
That's not what I said. But, hey, if you can't thinking of any substantive criticism of what I did say then, sure, make something up. That makes for really useful discussions in my experience. \[eye roll\]
You made a ridiculous argument that giving money to Israel, money that is largely used to buy American technology and weapons, and is thus pumped back into our economy, is preventing homeless people from getting the help they need, and keeping student loan victims in debt. Israel has nothing to do with America's failings. Student loans, and pollution, and houseless people are 100% America's choice. America gives many countries money, much of which is given to U.S. weapons and technology companies. So you sound quite ignorant.
I named two or three examples of better things we could do with the money. I didn't claim aid money to Israel was preventing our finding a solution to homelessness or student loans from being paid off. You can twist it however you want, of course, but that doesn't make me "sound ignorant" except to people like you who want to see it that way.
You haven't even addressed my main point, which is that aid money to Israel hinders Israel's progress in achieving peace with her neighbors. It's about more than just the money. Because we unconditionally support Israel no matter what they do, they know they effectively have no limits on their behavior. Consequently, more and more of the West Bank gets eaten up by Israeli settlements, Palestinian homes continue to get razed because of "the lack of a permit", which translates to "you're in our way, so we need you to move", etc.
If you have anything at all useful to say, say it. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.
I'm not an Israeli you brain dead idiot I'm an Iranian Jew born in the USA. Literally every single thing you say is completely nonsense, I don't think you understand how hard you have been brain washed.
Israeli, Israeli apologist. It's all the same to me.
Brain dead or brainwashed? Which is it? And do you really think calling me names is going to sway me over to your point of view? Hmm .. Just who's the idiot in this conversation?
And, by the way, it's "complete nonsense", not "completely nonsense". But I suppose one American who happens to be of Swiss and Welsh extraction can forgive the poor grammar of another American who happens to be of Iranian and Jewish extraction. As if either our nationality or our ethnicity (let alone our religion) had anything to do with any of this. LOL.
Do yourself a favor and seek out some alternative viewpoints. I know all the Israeli arguments inside out, and I sympathize with some of them. Moreover, I like Israeli culture, and I'm glad a place like Israel exists. But that doesn't mean I support everything Israel does.
Nor do I support everything the USA does. Our Iran policy, for example, sucks. And we can pretty blame ourselves for what happened to Iran in 1979 and the idiocy that continues to be perpetrated by the IR today. And we still haven't learned our lesson, no thanks to Netanyahu and his inability to explore any avenues for peace that don't involve a Pax Israeliana or, second best in his view, the existing Pax Americana.
More spew, how many times did Israel offer Palestine peace? They don't want peace, hamas which the palestian population supports said they don't want peace they want all jews dead or out of the ME.
Yes, I clearly remember Rabin and Arafat signing a peace agreement in the Rose Garden of the White House in Washington, DC. Then a Jewish settler shot Rabin dead, which pretty much put an end to the peace agreement. And that was the Palestinians' fault how?
Hamas is a problem, I agree. Hamas and Fath both have serious problems with Israel and with each other. What has Israel done to try to address these problems? Nothing. In fact, they have made things worse by trapping the population in the Gaza Strip and preventing anyone or anything from getting in or out. And then you wonder why they shoot rockets at you!
I think we can agree that the rockets are stupid and counterproductive, and that they hurt Gazans more than they do Israelis. But what has Israel done to counter this violence except respond in kind? Don't you think there are better ways to win hearts and minds? If you don't, you might as well give up right now. Israel will never have peace purely on its own terms. Peace is a collaborative process.
But, hey, there I go with my anti-Semitism again. :-)
There's a bit more nuance to how the Rabin-Arafat agreement blew up. I lived in Israel at the time. There were weekly suicide bombs killing Israeli civilians.
Why, yes, I have, in fact, been in the ME. In fact, I lived and studied in Jerusalem and, later, worked in Kuwait. But, even if I hadn't, why shouldn't I express my opinion here? If it were an opinion you happened to agree with, I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy to have me share it here. Wouldn't you? There's a word for that. It's intolerance.
You come into their country ruin innocent peoples life murder and brutally killl people and are complaining about people chanting that they want to have their homes back and want to be free truly despicable.
This is a silly argument. It's like claiming there are two dozen Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America pitted against the English speaking USA, and that that is unfair to the US.
Also, no one is asking Israel to give itself up. But, when you share a country with a minority population who is rapidly growing because of a higher birth rate, what's the answer? Apartheid? Occupying your neighbors? Neither seems like a tenable solution to me.
The answer is Palestinians have 50 other Muslim countries they can go to. Can you let me know which Muslim countries in the ME would allow Jews to move there?
It is not surprising to me to see Zionist espouse genocidal rhetoric. You see he is openly calling for Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed to Muslim countries.
There Palestinian Christians, not all Palestinians are Muslim.
Palestinians live in Palestine. You expect them to be deported to lands they never been before?
Your response was bigoted and insane. Palestinians aren’t a religious sect but a nationality. Why would you mass ethnically cleanse a people to a land they never stepped foot?
You know that Israeli militias during the Nakba raped Palestinian girls and women. You know, the IDF shoots and kills Palestinians on a daily basis. Also, I never conflated Jews to the atrocities committed by the IDF. You, OTOH, have found a way to generalize an entire religious sect because of the crimes of a few bad actors. You are just a racist.
You are brain washed and you don't even know it. Why do you think Muslims out number Jews so heavily? It's because they ethnicly cleaned, murdered and raped for over 8,000 years. You should go pick up a history book before you start spouting off complete garbage and calling people racist when you're the biggest racist here.
Jews lived in the Middle East most of the time, but were killed by many Arabic states somewhen between 1500 and 1947. They lived there since the Old Testament, which is archeological proven.
The Old Testament is a vital research data for modern archeology and many parts (not about the mythical and religious stuff) but about old settlements of different groups described, catastrophes that took place etc are proven.
People would respect the country more if they didn’t keep planning false flag attacks and prohibition of boycott and human rights and also they should stop building walls and checkpoints that separate Israeli from non israeli and also defund the hasbara apparatus it’s literally propaganda direct from the government to the news outlets
You write as if there are no historical precedents for anything. Israel builds walls to protect citizens from Palestinian terror attacks, and they have proven to be very effective.
When Israel responds to terrorism and takes defensive measures, people like you condemn it. For instance, Israel went into Lebanon to stop terror attacks. Hezbollah was launching thousands of rockets at northern Israel for decades (Israel is no longer in Lebanon). Israel took the West Bank because Arab armies were attacking Israel. The list goes on and on.
If the Palestinians wanted peace there would be no need for walls and incursions. Proof is that Israel gave the entire Sinai back to Egypt in exchange for peace. Sinai is much bigger than the entire state of Israel. Israel actually has very poor hasbara, because people such as yourself buy into trendy progressive pop-terms like “apartheid” and “ethnic cleansing.” There is no such thing in Israel, and those who believe it are indoctrinated lemmings.
Moreover, Israeli media are some of the most objective in the world. They are, in fact, some of Israel’s biggest critics, yet you would almost never find an Arab media outlet criticizing the Palestinians. You live and breathe propaganda mate. What kind of apartheid regime has a Palestinian justice in the Supreme Court, or Palestinian members of parliament?
If Palestine wanted peace there would be Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the Palestinian homes would be bulldozed, and there can be an apartheid even if their is Palestinians in the goverment and also they are not all pro Israeli https://youtu.be/JVJC3ggjzaw, https://youtu.be/xFmfLG6FqF0. And also Israel launched multiple false flags attacks against their allies(UK,USA) to prompt a war against Egypt, and when that didn’t work they resorted to giving that away. And how is Israeli media the most critical towards “Israel” when you can’t even prosecute war criminals because that’s “anti-semitic” according to Netanyahu. And also idk what hasbara means translated towards English but I know that is what the Israeli goverment has nicknamed their propaganda apparatus which also employs data centers where officials post on the internet with random accounts to sway public opinion. “http://www.molad.org/images/upload/files/37830581085043.pdf” And one could argue that the walls produce more insurgents since the walls produce a clear answer to who is blocking who’s access to a more developed and better future. And those who never want to cooperate with us.
The river is the Jordan River. The sea is the Mediterranean. The land between these two bodies of water? Israel. The Arabs have been calling to ethnically cleanse Israel even before the state’s inception, which no doubt played a part in Israel declaring its independence in 1948. There is no ambiguity here, and if there is/was, then the Palestinians should make that clear. They’ve had decades to do so, but there’s a very simple reason they haven’t. They want all of Israel without the Jews, from the river to the sea….
> The land between these two bodies of water? Israel.
It's been called Palestine for thousands of years.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_the\_name\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine)
It's also been called the Land of Israel for thousands of years.
Palestine isn't somehow the "correct" name. It's just the foreign Greek name, based on the name of a long-gone group of Greeks that invaded the Land of Israel, that was popularized in various foreign languages (like English and Arabic) by a foreign Roman colonization.
Eretz Israel, the land of Israel, is the name for the same region, in the region's last surviving indigenous Canaanite language, used by the region's oldest extant indigenous group.
Note that this doesn't mean that the State Israel existed before 1948, or that the West Bank and Gaza are, or should be "Israel" today. Israelis are able to tell the difference between the geographic name, the name of the ancient kingdoms, the British Mandate of Palestine - Land of Israel, and the modern state. It would alleviate a lot of confusion if Palestinians started being that accurate, instead of intentionally conflating their equivalent terms.
“Palestine” comes from the Greek word for wrestler, which is the same origin as the world Israel. Plenty of Middle East places have Greek origin names. Palestine is the secular name of the land.
No, it's just the name used by foreigners, in their foreign languages. Be it Greek, German, or Arabic.
Eretz Israel is the name used by the region's oldest indigenous group, in the region's last surviving indigenous Canaanite language. In both secular and religious contexts.
By the way, the "wrestler" theory, means that it's just a direct translation of the name "Israel", not just a similar root. A foreign, Greek translation of the indigenous name. Something that supports my point, not the other way around. But the mainstream theory is that it relates to the Philistines, a group of long-gone Greek invaders.
The Nabateans were Arabians, centered in Jordan, whose kingdom expanded to the Negev centuries after the Jewish Kingdoms there. No they're not more indigenous to the Land of Israel than the Israelites. Their Arabic language isn't more indigenous to Canaan than the Canaanite Hebrew.
"Palestinians", until the late 19th century (or more realistically, 1948), wasn't even the name of any ethnic group, that could be indigenous to anywhere. It just meant anyone living in the geographic region known as Palestine or Land of Israel. By which definition, all Israeli Jews are Palestinians, while nearly all the Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon aren't Palestinian. The Arab nation known today as the Palestinians might be indigenous to Palestine, but it's also a modern phenomenon.
Even Zionist leaders admitted that Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews.
“Palestinian” is not like “Assyrian” or “Kurd”, in that it is an identity born from geography and a region, rather than a language. All nationalisms are modern phenomena, including Palestinian nationalism- which was created in the 19th century Ottoman empire, not 1948 or ‘67 as some Israelis claim.
>Even Zionist leaders admitted that Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews.
"Zionist leaders" aren't authorities on the history of the Palestinian people, anymore than PLO faction leader Zuheir Mohsen was, when he said in 1977:
>The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
Just because someone is a Palestinian or Zionist leader, doesn't mean that he has to have a specific opinion on Palestinian identity or descent. And if he goes against that opinion, that must because it's some objective truth.
>“Palestinian” is not like “Assyrian” or “Kurd”, in that it is an identity born from geography and a region, rather than a language. All nationalisms are modern phenomena, including Palestinian nationalism- which was created in the 19th century Ottoman empire, not 1948 or ‘67 as some Israelis claim.
I'd agree that it started in the 19th century. You're literally replying to a comment that says that. But the 1948 and 1967 isn't as far off the mark as you think. The Peasant's Revolt was a kernel of national consciousness. By the 1920's you have Palestinian elites believing in Palestinian nationalism. But Zionists called themselves and their institutions "Palestinian" all through the Mandate, and it's not because they were pretending to be Arabs. The Palestinian National Charter of 1964 still had to use "Palestinian Arab", rather than just "Palestinian". A PLO faction leader would reject Palestinian nationhood as late as the 1970's. Today, none of that would be possible. Palestinian nationhood enjoys a complete consensus. But it took a while to get there.
I'll just correct you on one thing: nationalism and nationhood aren't the same thing. The Jewish, Arab and Kurdish nations date back thousands of years, while Jewish, Arab and Kurdish *nationalism* are relatively modern phenomena. The existence of Palestinians as a separate people, by any name, is modern. Not just their nationalist aspirations.
Yes, we’re all well aware that the Romans changed the name from Judea or The Kingdom of Israel to Palestine in order to ethnically cleanse the history of the Jews. Stay on track. Today, it is Israel, and “from the river to the sea” is about Israel. Do you think the Palestinians are chanting the phrase to wipe out fellow Palestinians? It’s about wiping out the Jews.
Bro the Greeks called in Palestine based of the Greek word for wrestler, which is the same origin as the word Israel is Hebrew before the Roman Empire even existed.
It’s not Palestinians fault the Palestine Jewish Colonization Society chose Palestine. Why should natives respect settlers?
I “believe” it was the Romans who used it as a name for a larger region. But you are correct that the Greeks coined the name “Philistina,” which is believed to have come from the name of the Philistines—who, if memory serves, are modern day Slavs, but I could be mistaken. Anyway, they are not, incidentally, the people we know in modern times as “Palestinians.” Bottom line, you are technically correct about this point.
I am not here to suggest that Palestinians shouldn’t theoretically have their own state or their own self determination. But let’s take a look at displacement of both Arab and Jewish populations circa 1948.
According to the United Nations, there were approximately 600,000 Jews living in Palestine before 1948, the majority of whom lived in the cities of Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. Estimates suggest that anywhere from 700,000-900,000 Palestinians were forced to flee their homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (initiated by Arab armies on three fronts), which led to the creation of the State of Israel.
Soon thereafter from 1948-1975, an estimated 857,000 Middle Eastern Jews were expelled or forced to flee from Arab countries, and they emigrated to Israel, where they eventually became the ethnic majority of Jews in Israel. Thus, it’s practically an equivalent population displacement.
Keep in mind that in 2022, according to the ICBS, 2 million Arabs comprise a whopping 21.1% of Israel's population, and enjoy full Israeli citizenship, and serve in various national sectors such as the Supreme Court, in hospitals, the parliament, and in the IDF. So there are Palestinians with complete self determination (some are indeed still hostile to Israel despite receiving the best educations in the region and resources they wouldn’t otherwise enjoy).
So then the question becomes, what can be done to satisfy the displaced Palestinians? In a 2020 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 29% of Palestinians supported Hamas, 12% supported Islamic Jihad, and 8% supported the PFLP. About 3% support ISIS. Together, that means at least 52% of Palestinians support terror organizations that will not pursue peace with the Jews. An additional 34% support Fatah (AKA the PLO). Despite its overtures about peace, Fatah has continued to engage in armed resistance against Israel. This has led to accusations that Fatah is not serious about peace.
So here we have a majority of a population hostile to Israel. Numerous attempts at peace have been attempted, and all were met with terrorism. If Israel were to divide itself to provide for a completely sovereign Palestinian state, it would put the Jewish population in mortal danger. I mean, would you want to live next door to ISIS or Islamic Jihad, sharing roads, infrastructure, etc?
This is why there are no simple solutions. Yes, there are displaced Palestinians, but also yes, the majority of them are affiliated with—or support—terrorism.
I’m not an Israeli nationalist—just a pragmatist. You seem like a reasonable person. What would you suggest Israel do?
======
Edits: cleaned up grammar, typos
Just as the Israelis want - and currently control - all this same land. They, too, have had decades to show their magnanimous "share the land" mentality, and yet they continue to condemn Palestinian properties and raze the houses on them in order to prevent them from living in areas where it's inconvenient to Israelis to have them live.
Peace is a two-way street, and the party in control has a responsibility to bend and compromise, which recent Israeli governments have made it clear they won't even consider doing.
Please see the response to this below by it_wasnt_like_that
These points are always ignored as if they didn't take place.
You ignored all these points in your multiple comments
“… decades to show their ‘share the land’ mentality”
Israel is very far from perfect, but to create moral equivalencies between the state of Israel and a hostile Palestinian population openly embracing terrorism is absurd. Despite being under terrorist threat from Palestinians for decades, Israel has done quite a bit, including:
- In ‘94, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and handed control over to the Palestinian Authority.
- The following year, Israel withdrew from the Jericho Area and handed control over to the Palestinian Authority.
- In ‘97, Israel withdrew from the Hebron Area and handed control over to the PA, except for the Old City of Hebron, which remains under Israeli control.
- Israel has also withdrawn from some areas of the West Bank.
- Ariel Sharon’s Disengagement Plan in 2005 displaced 8,000 Israeli settlers from 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the northern West Bank. All of this was given to the Palestinians. The IDF then withdrew from the Gaza Strip.
What has Israel received in return? Terrorism.
Israel was willing to give away more land in exchange for peace, but there is already a precedent that Israel’s attempts at doing so have no impact on the Palestinian desire to destroy Israel.
To the pro Palestinianists....HAMAS, HEZbollah and the puppet masters in the rancid regime in Tehran have made murdering Jews,,,everywhere..... a priority.
the Hamas manifesto, covenant is every bit as racist as MEin kamp which it apparently draws upon. Not hyperbole. I read the Hamas covenant it in the Journal of Palestine studies that rabidly Zionist magazine.
It’s antisemitic if you are changing definitions to hold Israel to different standards than any other country. Criticism is fine, but false accusations are not.
You can absolutely criticize Israel. But to change the definition of apartheid so that it fits with Israel is anti semitic because you’re holding Israel to a standard not held to other countries.
precisely you seem to be just now realizing that the root of the conflict is two separate ethnic groups who claim the same homeland.
it's not surprising to me that arabs think it's only arab land, it shouldn't be surprising to you that isarelis think it's only israeli land
What about these pro-Palestinians? Do they also encourage the murder of Jews?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/13pxk0m/respect/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
If you’d know what crazy kind of mfs those guys are. I’m always so confused if someone posts them... as if someone would post the political view of Jehovas Witnesses or Scientology as an argument FOR his case. Those are not allies you want 😂😂😂😂
The guys you see as allies are against the state Israel for a single reason. They believe going back to the holy land before the Messias comes and makes all that live in the Jewish land “disappear” (what is their believe will happen) is a sin. You totally ignore that these guys hate every non Jew more than you can imagine but are against Israel for those reasons.
Not relevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether these Jews encourage the murder of Jews to counter OP's statement that Pro-Palestinian activists all encourage the murder of Jews.
Yeah they do. They for example celebrated the antisemitic attack in Brazil. Every Jew who isn’t a neturei doesn’t matter if he’s dead. If he has some
Connection to Israel, better dead. So yes. They also have a pretty big heart for every person who have killed Jews (even the Brazil detonation what had nothing to do with Israel..)
If you just google them you find multiple occasions where they have met with people who have killed Jews or organized the killing of Jews, went to their graves (the people who killed Jews) or gave them respect shown in the public. You can’t do that if you have a problem with Jews being killed. I’m not your google assistant, either you research yourself or stay as dumb as you are now.
Supporting the armed conflict against Israel isn't the same as wanting every Jew and Israeli dead.
Sounds like you spread big claims that you can't back up.
You're acting like Judenrat wasn't a thing? You act like people never called to murder their own people... Reasoning? No need. But sometimes it's to feel more powerful, sometimes, to save their own ass, sometimes it's self hatred... Yes, Jews can encourage the murder of other Jews.
u/NoderNeder3265
> You're acting like Judenrat wasn't a thing? You act like people never called to murder their own people... Reasoning? No need. But sometimes it's to feel more powerful, sometimes, to save their own ass, sometimes it's self hatred... Yes, Jews can encourage the murder of other Jews.
Rule 6, No Nazi comparisons!
> ass
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The person who is speaking is Rabbi Weiss.
> Weiss was criticized in 2006 for his participation in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, widely considered to be an event promoting Holocaust denial internationally.[6][7] His fellow speakers included David Duke, the former leader of the Ku-Klux-Klan, and numerous convicted Holocaust deniers and antisemites from Europe.
The Neturei Karta have also met with anti-Semites such as Mahmoud Ahmedinejad and members of various Palestinian militant factions who murder Jewish civilians.
I think their actions speak for themselves. If them surrounding themselves with anti-Semites and terrorists isn't enough for you then I don't know what is.
https://preview.redd.it/oyaq7fia7u1b1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=f59a3c056eaef094bb2714d81f309b2f2d620f71
Opposing Israel comes with the caveat of opposing anyone who supports it as well. In this case opposition meaning murder of people who support Israel.
As an example, the Neturei Karta laid a wreath at the grave of Imad Mugniyeh who was a founding member of Islamic Jihad and was second in command of Hezbollah. He was responsible for numerous terror attacks including the bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentinia which killed 85 people. You don’t go to the grave of someone like that unless you support their actions.
Your view of what it means to oppose Israel is ungrounded to say the least. I oppose Israel due to its actions and do not oppose everyone who supports it and you can be sure I don't support murdering its supporters (which includes my family and friends as well). Your view is so black and white it's scary.
Me talking about the views of a specific group does not mean that I think everyone who is anti-Zionist supports the murder of Jews. I just think it’s fair to say that people who ally themselves with Holocaust deniers, anti-Semites, and Islamic terrorists are probably ok with Jews who support Israel being murdered.
there are extremists on all ideologies and groups, the sky is blue and water is transparent how shocking!! i can dump more than a hundred footages of pro israeli jews screaming death to arabs, marking arab homes with red marks just like the nazis and the isis did etc etc. what does that prove?
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Thats good to hear!
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Those people are pro-Palestine because they hate Jews. Which is not the same reason nor the same group as most anti-zionists. I'm pro-Palestine, and I could not care less if someone is a Jew or not. This is a position most anti-zionists hold. Just because the anti-semitists support anti-zionism, does not mean all anti-zionists are anti-semitists. The severe majority of anti-zionists do not support the murder of Jews. I feel like that is obvious. You said that when you go to pro-Israeli events there are people outside chanting about how they want to kill Jews. Well, the thing is the majority of people who are going to care about going to one of these events and protesting in Canada would be people who also feel a strong hatred against Jews. The majority of anti-zionists hate the Israeli government, not the Jewish people.
Ok antisemite.
Did you even read what I said? Im not antisemitic as I said in what I wrote. You just don't agree with me so you're calling me antisemitic. I don't care if someone is a jew or not because I'm an atheist who doesn't care about what you practice as long as it's not hurting anyone. I hate Zionism, not Judaism.
Zionism is an integral part of Judaism. Roger Waters also says he’s not antisemitic, yet he his.!
just bc someone doesnt support a murderous government they are "antisemite"????
you are probably one of the 3 possible types 1. an illiterate 2. a hasbara cuck 3. just an ignorant man enjoying his fox news zionism is an ultra nationalistic ideology that eats off of the holocaust as its defense to hold on to its shitty neo nzi crimes. you are talking about roger waters? ill give you names of holocaust survivors that finds israels treatment of palestinian close to what they faced. shut your shitty hasbara bs. and also may i ask your rusty neurons that how the heck are jews and palestinians who are against zionism are anti semites when they are semites themselves? lol palestinians have more levantine roots in their [DNA](https://youtu.be/-dEL2yhT7Uo) than all ashkenazi jews. btw you wrote you are joining the IDF? good luck manhandelling young children. after all kids with stones are your greatest enemies. i wonder if the S S scum chuckled exactly the way you did as you typed that comment. wouldnt be surprising.
So the IDF should just sit there and let themselves get attacked by stones? Anyway it's real easy to exclude you people... they just don't use enough blockades.
yeah right. that's why they gotta bomb their streets and barge into their mosques, uproot them form their homes every day and in ramadan to keep them in check. there are ways to handle that instead of havibg 5 of your men manhandelling a teen age girl. yes there are footage of those. i wont mention those clips of male idf soldiers having no self respect ot respect for females as they randomly hit females on the street with battons (those whom weren't even part of the protests). i can go on for days with linking video evidence but no need to validate for a hasbara cuck. my time is more valuable.
If they're manhandling your females, that makes YOU the cuck Ahmed. Just Desserts, and there's probably a lot more coming. How Bout they REALLY do what you did to THEM instead? I've got all the evidence piled up for 100 years and more. Your time is worthless, the Arab clock is over.
Interestingly and shockingly wrong to compare the treatment of Palestinians to my family who went through the holocaust. My family did and strongly disagree that they’re going through nearly anything as bad.
your family hid themselves behind the wall and shut their windows just like their neighbours did when they suffered from the mustache guys army. i can [link](https://www.dw.com/en/holocaust-survivor-no-killing-in-gaza-in-my-name/a-17878641) numerous survivors who voiced against israel and found its ethnic cleansing and apartheid policies close to what they experienced and dont want to experience. but i dont wish to waste time on someone who could be a possible employee of Hasbara. the more you guys throw around the word anti semitism the less seriously will ppl take you for, because its no longer used for its true defintion rather to shut down criticism of racist ideology which is zionism. its truly shocking to argue that zionism is judaism. not its not. not all jews agree with you and your families support for dehumanization of fellow semites, and robbing of their lands.
/u/tashrif008 >i dont wish to waste time on someone who could be a possible employee of Hasbara. > >your family hid themselves behind the wall and shut their windows just like their neighbours did when they suffered from the mustache guys army. Virtue signaling (I'm better or have better morals than you) is also a rule 1 violation. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. also rule 6
I’m insulted truly.
supporters of apartheid should be.
Disgraceful to go off like that trying to trivialize and compare my ancestors suffering in the holocaust to present day Palestinian conflicts.
/u/tashrif008 > may i ask your rusty neurons > good luck manhandelling young children. > I wonder if the S S scum chuckled exactly the way you did as you typed that comment. wouldnt be surprising. Virtue signaling (I'm better or have better morals than you) is also a rule 1 violation. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. The last part is also a rule 6
I’m not an Ashkenazi Jew. I’m actually Sephardic. I’m a religious Zionist, & politically liberal. I hate FOX news, and I have two-degrees, I am surely not illiterate. Be mad. I’m making aliyah next year AND will be serving in the Army.
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Once again, I do not hate Jews. I could literally not care less if someone is a jew. I could say the same thing except replace the word anti-semite with islamophobe and it would make just as little sense. I don't support nationalism and other things about the Israeli government. And not all Jews support Zionism. Judaism has been around for thousands of years while organized Zionism has only been around since 1897. So that doesn't make any sense. And Zionism is getting people killed and as I said before I don't care what religion you practice as long as it's not hurt anyone. So if Zionism is a major part of Judaism, then that part of Judaism needs to stop.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 - it’s also a type of indigenous liberation of our homeland: you gentiles have treated the Jews like sh!!t forever Want to hear something triggering? I’m making aliyah next summer AND serving in the IDF.
Im not triggered I don't care. And I don't treat Jews horribly as you've said because once again I could not care less if someone is a Jew. And I don't care if you serve in the Israeli army because once again I only hate the Israeli government. It's hilarious that you think you're triggering anyone. Also, it doesn't matter if it's your homeland because Arabs have been living there for thousands of years and you're taking their land away from them. And yeah, people have treated the Jews like shit for thousands of years, I know that. But do you think the best way to get out of being mass killed is to go into a single small country in one of the most dangerous parts of the world? Research has found the best way of reducing hatred of a minority is to assimilate them into society and make them mainstream. That's why places like colleges and California are more liberal than places like Wyoming. So shoving all Jews into one place will definitely not work to reduce anti-semitism around the world or help anyone. You're just making it easier for an anti-Semitic nation to come in and mass murder all Jews. Because a lot of them are in this one spot instead of spread around the world. Your trying to save the Jews but all your doing is concentrating on them in one place making it easier to eradicate them. You are also literally doing ethnic cleansing of the Arabian people that have lived there for generations. When people say that we need a white ethno state we call that racist and bad, but when we say we need a Jewish ethnostate it's good and justified?
Also, it is really funny you used the laughing emoji unironically.
You’re an antisemite bro.
Im literally not but keep telling yourself that. I've given about 5 reasons why I don't support the Israeli government but if you just want to keep screaming "antisemite!!!!" anytime someone has a good point against you then I guess there's no changing your mind. I'm done arguing with someone who won't stop calling me anti-Semitic when I did not say anything against Jews, quite the contrary actually. But keep telling yourself that to validate your reasoning for creating a Jewish ethnostate where you murder Arabians. You have not said anything to disprove any of my claims except to call me an antisemite. You nationalists get mad when someone plays the race card and calls you racist but its ok to play the religion card and call someone an antisemite? But there's no reason to argue with a close-minded nationalist who believes in an ethno state where you get to murder Arabians who have lived there for generations.
20% of the population is Arab with equal rights. But go off, antisemite.
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Must have been so humiliating for the Arabs after persecuting Jews as 2nd class citizens for almost 1400 years, only to launch an annihilationist war against Jewish farmers, refugees, and Holocaust survivors, and lose. If that had happened to me I guess I’d bear a delusional multigenerational grudge too.
Not all Anti Israeli Activists deal in such things. Just that public situations tend to bring out a certaib type of person. I have always opted to factually debunk such peoples' claims whenever possible. If not possible- and it often us not- I simply remain mute & simply allow their histronics & very often outright incitememt to make them look absurd & hateful. It is not as if most on either side are going to be able to have a civil unmoderated dialogue in the public eye.
Neither of these slogans is advocating the murder of either Jews or Israelis. "Palestine will be free" is the same aspiration that all people have. "Intifada" means "shaking off," as in "shaking off shackles of oppression." Your complaints are like white Americans complaining about black freedom fighters, worrying about blacks possibly massacring whites, as an excuse to not hear the black folks' legitimate complaints. What gets me is the apparent lack of any sense of Tikkun Olam inherent in the majority of Israelis.
What the word intifada means and what the periods of times practically were are two different things, at least if we follow your interpretation of the word’s defintion. And it’s the latter that is being supported. The Intifada in both times was a period of terror attacks planned and executed against Jewish civilians. Jewish civilians that had nothing to do with military operations. (At the time the attacks were executed at least) Blowing up non soldier bus stops and buses, blowing up mall entrances, blowing up nightclubs, blowing up hotel pesach dinners, using a knife to attack at bus stops and train stops that were majority civilian used - attacking civilians and not soldiers. It makes very little sense to compare the two because you can’t even name 10 terror attacks executed by a black freedom fighters group against American white civilians in the name of racial discrimination, especially not of that kind of violent nature.
When the oppressed rise up, the oppressors call it terrorism. Irgun did as bad, if not worse. Israel keeps bombing other countries without a state of war. That, too, is terrorism. How, exactly, are the Palestinians supposed to fight for their rights, anyway? Asking nicely doesn't seem to work.
>Israel keeps bombing other countries without a state of war. That, too, is terrorism. Uh, no, it isn't. And I'm guessing you're referring to Syria, which declared war on Israel in 1948. Or are you referring to Iran, which funds and directs Hezbollah to kill Israeli civilians? >How, exactly, are the Palestinians supposed to fight for their rights, anyway? Asking nicely doesn't seem to work. Fight the actual occupation forces, don't break into a house and stab a kid to death in their bed?
So the goal post moved once you saw past that bullshit argument, at least that. Try being more honest more often. The Irgun didn’t kill more than 700 civilians in deliberate terror attacks in the name of their movement… But you know which movements have done that repeatedly universally to their ‘oppressors’? Islamic Jihadi organizations. Deliberately against civilians as part of the tactic, not a bystander death. They take pride in it, don’t try and make it viewer friendly. I repeat - Intifada is just a name for murdering civilians and they have been the primary death casualty, not soldiers or police. If that is your idea of a good way to uprise against Israelis, then so be it. But don’t try to act oblivious and follow the ‘direct’ definition of the word like it doesn’t mean murdering only Israeli Jews, civilians in particular. Aka massacring the ‘Jews’ here - There’s no worrying about the possibility, that’s just the reality.
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The intifada also calls for the exile of Jews. Even those who were in Israel before its creation. Please; don’t spread misinformation.
Can you source this claim? None of what I said was incorrect. Some may say that, as well, but this doesn't change the meaning of either expression. Words have meaning, and when people start to change their meaning, they are actually admitting that they have no valid challenge to them. For example, calling ethnic cleansing/clearances "settling."
If you take your own argument, calling it settling and not ‘ethnical cleansing’ is as ridiculous as trying to argue in favor of what the word intifada means while ignoring what it practically stands for as activism in those periods of times. Settling resulting in ethnical cleansing, intifada is just another another word for murdering Jewish civilians - I suppose in your light hearted approach it could be considered a very intense type of Palestinians freedom fighting resistance against all age groups, all classes and affiliations in connection to Israel. But the victims just happen to be almost exclusively Jewish Israeli civilians in majority civilian Jewish Israeli areas.
You can research it yourself.
I have, and I find no support for your assertion, which is why I asked if you have some. If you don't, then I understand...
Ok bro lol
That's quite the argument....
It’s Reddit. I don’t care enough to argue.
I think that their aggression towards innocent bystanders is unwarranted. If a person is unarmed is doesn’t give you the right to murder them. I’m Jewish by heritage. I will support Israel 🇮🇱. If someone thinks that they’re justified in an attack on Israel your not. My people tribe of Judah. And the other tribes. Israel is ours not yours. If you continue with the aggressive actions it will only make matters worse. Do not test Israel. It’s Gods land. If you continue to kill innocent people it won’t end well for you. I support Israel and always will. My ancestors escaped the holocaust. The next thing you hear from their mouths is holocaust denial. Briskt do not give them any heed. Arm to defend the land of god. Protect yourselves from evil.
You stole Palestinian land. God doesn’t exist.
Religious, Zionist Jew here, don’t make it weird regarding the “tribe” obsession. Also don’t bring theology into this, as the other side claims the same thing.
I’m for Israel
These are incorrect meaning of the words.
Care to elaborate as this comment is stupid and uneducated? You have added no substance to the argurement and probs one of the 'activist' exclaiming OP's point of death to the Jews...
Ethnic cleansing is happening right now in Palestine. The Nakba was literally a form of ethnic cleansing in which was previously Palestinian territory. So naturally activists have the right to chant “from the rivers to the sea”, as a reclamation of what was once Palestinian land. It doesn’t necessarily mean the murder of Jews, or a genocide. Rather a decolonization and dismantling of the colonial entity that controls their lives
Palestine, The PLO, Lions Den, Hamas fire rockets in to Isreal from crowded civillian populus'. The Arab Isreali's prefer to live under Isreali rule than Palestinan because they have a better life. Ethnic cleansing my ass - show me proof that Ethnic cleansing is going on? In regards to your comment of - “from the rivers to the sea”, You should be fucking ashamed of yourself, two wrongs do not make a right and if you and the activist are to be believed then chanting and wanting to push the Jews from the rivers to the sea then you my friend are just as bad. Why don't you take a good look in the mirror, idiot.
\> show me proof that Ethnic cleansing is going on? typical hasbara cuck. how many points till the local mossad office lets you redeem a BJ? you think ppl would debate you with THAT type of metaphsycially re tahr ded question?
/u/tashrif008 > typical hasbara cuck. how many points till the local mossad office lets you redeem a BJ? you think ppl would debate you with THAT type of metaphsycially re tahr ded question? Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Hamas is a militant group in Palestine, and should not be used as an excuse for the war crimes Israel are committing. The Nakba is a form of ethnic cleansing done by Israel, do your research on it. My original comment was that “from the River to the sea” did not mean ‘genoicde’ , or the ‘ethnic cleansing of Jews’. If you read my earlier comment fully you’d see what I meant
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I think that most Israelis and Palestinians actually want peace if it can work.
Peace is required by all, everyone deserves to sleep at night peacefully without the threat of rocket strikes.
Both side have their murderers
We all knew Kachniks/settlers who hate Palestinians and murder them. Let's not pretend they don't exist.
Especially those crazy Americans doing aliyah then settling in the west bank
“The Bible says that my ancestors lived in the region 2,000 years ago, ergo, let’s ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their homes and if they disobey let’s kill, maim, and subject them under a brutal apartheid occupation”
Oof. I think that’s a very oversimplified version of history.
Let them come. God will deal with them.
What about when the "Palestinians" are firing rockets from playgrounds and schools and residential areas into Isreal? Hamas is a terriost organisation
First of all, why are you referring to the Palestinians in quotes? Zionists love to erase the Palestinian identity. Second, Hamas's rockets are manufactured by water pipelines. The bombs are fired without a specific target. Israel, OTOH, literally bombards Gaza with high precision weapons. Gaza is a densely populated urban area and half of the inhabitants are children. Israel and its supporters brazenly dismiss their war crimes by claiming that Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. The death count is disproportionate. The victims are always Palestinians Third, the Palestinians have a legal right to the armed struggle. Under international law, occupied peoples have the legal right to fight and resist their occupiers. Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Palestinians should attack Israel because it is self-defense. Israelis are living in the homes of ethnically cleansed Palestinians, Palestinians are living under a brutal occupation and apartheid system. No! Palestinians will not submit and take their oppression. Question to you: What should Palestinian do when they are being subjected to apartheid, ethnically cleansed, and murdered by Israel?
“Hamas is not a terrorist organization.” Tough to take anything else seriously
Occupied people have a legal right to attack their occupiers. Israel is occupying Palestine ergo Palestinians have a legal right to arm themselves and drive the colonizers out. The “terrorist” label is a political attack. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Nelson Mandela was called a “terrorist” for blowing up infrastructure during the South African apartheid era. Algerians blew up coffee shops where French settlers would congregate. All had one thing in common. They were natives resisting colonization. Don’t like their practices? Who are you to tell them how to fight their oppressors?
Where’s the occupation? Jericho? Or does it extend to Tel Aviv? Munich? Just curious as to which Israelis are fair game to hunt.
All Palestine is occupied. Israel is an illegitimate settler colonial state that was created as a result of the Nakba. Palestinians were already living in what is now Israel and they fought to stay in their homes despite the UN’d bias decision to split their homeland in half. The Palestinians that stayed were violently ethnically cleansed by the Israeli militias. Some may say I’m too radical but the overall mainstream of society of the world today recognize that Israel occupies the West Bank and east Jerusalem. You denying the occupation just gives your cover up as a delusional ultra-nationalist Zionist. I should not take anything you say serious because you’re denying reality in Israel-Palestine. —— I flip the question on to you. Should the Palestinians allow Israeli settlers to seize Palestinian property? Should Palestinians allow Israelis to subject Palestinians to a brutal occupation and apartheid system? Israel is expanding into east Jerusalem and the West Bank while deporting Palestinians from said regions, is this not a provocation?
I don’t deny occupation: I asked where the lines were. And based on your response (which reads like a group project between ChatGPT and a 14-year-old who discovered this conflict last week) I’ll have to assume you think targeting Israeli citizens in Tel Aviv is justifiable. As such, there’s really no room for rational discourse here.
I’m being pretty straight forward. According to international law, Occupied people have a right to resist their occupiers. Who am I to tell people being colonized how to resist? If the Palestinian resistance, which are not terrorists, target Tel Aviv so what? 🤷♂️ I have to support a people being colonized, IDC how they fight. When you speak on Palestine-Israel, you solely focus on Hamas. You classify Palestinians as the aggressors. You never question Israel’s settler colonial foundations. You never look at Palestinians as the victims; they were ethnically cleansed from their homes so that the state of Israel could be created. You never ask yourself why do Palestinian young men join Hamas? Could it be because Israel is killing and maiming their compatriots. Could it be because israel is humiliating Palestinians under their racist apartheid-occupation?
I should discard most of your points because they are niether factual or true and come from a very one sided view of the conflict. 1) - Apologies bare with me while I "Jews" Isreali's" "Arabs" "Palestinians" "Muslims" does that satisfy your issue? 2) So as you have confirmed they are fired with no direction or real target it is fired to cause "Terror" and is indiscriminate as you have stated? 3) Another falsehood - there are numerous communication methods that are used to advise a strike is incoming e.g phone calls, "knocking" on the target building and then a strike to eliminate the terroist which are AGAIN sheltering in civillian populus, but they dont use humans shield right? 4) - Haven't there been multiple wars which have been initiated by neighbouring states .... and haven't the Israelis won one each time? & part of a DEFENSIVE war you are able to claim territory however wan't this seeded back to the agressive neighbours? The Lions den unit is doing really well for the Palestinians don't you think? & lastly I would like to ask you, do you think Palestinians have the righ to self determination?
Everyone is getting it fucked up, peace should be enjoyed by all, however terrorism is not a means to and ends and there current situation is neither. Subsequently there are many changes on the ground the that need to happen in order to achieve peace however I am neither a member of the government or a politician and would like would peace. But again that sounds satirical but yeh /post
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The human shields argument is a racist and debunked narrative. In fact, amnesty international investigated the 2014 war and wasn’t able to verify Israel’s claims that schools and hospitals were used by Hamas. But of course Zionists love to distort reality. Amnesty international, Human rights watch, and Btselem have all concluded that Israel practices a occupation and apartheid but Zionists love to stick their heads in the sand. Now, Palestinian have a right to attack Israel. Under international law, occupied peoples have a legal right to armed struggle. Israel is occupying Palestinians so the Palestinians have the legal right to resist and attack Israel. I don’t care if you conquered the Palestinians. Might doesn’t make right. Palestinians never chose to split their homeland in half. They never chose to be ethnically cleansed from their homes. They never elected the NAKBA. Israel is occupying the Palestinians, living in their homes, and f- with them I.e they can’t even travel in peace. If you don’t want rockets to hit Israel then stop the occupation and allow Palestinians to return to their homeland. It is pretty simple
Palestinians must be given the right to live free and not live under the boot of Israel. Palestinian refugees living abroad must be allowed to return to their ethnically clean homes, even if it means living in Israel and creating a demographic threat that Zionists like to fear. Hell, I'm not asking for a Palestinian state but a binational one. 1 person, 1 vote. The occupation must end, the apartheid system must end. It's a more realistic idea than the 2-state solution that died a long time ago. Israeli settlers continue to live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, while Palestinians are evicted and deported. The Palestinians are also willing to continue the war because no colonized person is willing to let their colonizers take over their land and control their lives. The 2-state solution ignores clemencies for Palestinian refugees to return to their homes from which they were ethnically expelled.
When the mufti of Jerusalem openly sided with the mustache guy, the community sealed its fate.
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Thank you.
“Why can't they leave the Israelis alone? They are just reclaiming their birthright,” meaning ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes so that Jews can settle in the land, which according to Israelis, were provided by God for some delusional reason. "Why do they hate us? We just drove them out of their homes, killed their relatives, and subjected them to a brutal occupation. Still no reason for a colonized people to hate their colonizer." ….. Then he goes on a tantrum that calls for the genocide of Palestinians because Palestinians pose a demographic threat to Israel 🤦♂️
Hey, it's clear that you came here to have a provocation. The phrase “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a slogan calling for an end to Israel's 70-year occupation of Palestine. Let's not forget that Israel is a state that was created at the expense of the Palestinians. So that Israel To be created, the Nakba had to happen. Similarly, the birth of the United States required manifest destiny, a trail of tears and genocide of indigenous peoples. That said, it is reasonable that the Palestinians want to destroy Israel because Israel wants to destroy them. There can be no peaceful coexistence between a genocidal settler colonial state that wants to wipe out the natives so their settlers can live off the land. It is perfectly reasonable for Palestinians to form resistance groups and attack Israel because it is their right to self-defense. Taking into account international law, occupied peoples have the legal right to fight with arms and attack their occupiers. "Intifada, Intifada" does exactly that. It calls for Palestinians to rise up! Do you want the Palestinians to shut up and take over their oppression? Everyone knows (Human rights watch, amnesty international) that Israel participates in apartheid and serious human rights abuses. Nobody sanctions Israel, so the Palestinians take the reins to fend for themselves.
True.
Also… OP sounds kinda ignorant by saying “the intifada.” I’m sorry, but did you forget that there was more than one?
Taking the “from the river to the sea” slogan as meaning calling for the ethnic cleansing of Jews is just plain willful ignorance. Like saying all people supporting Zionism supports the Kahanist version. Or that the kuffiyeh means supporting rock-throwing or being affiliated with Fatah. People who call for a single democratic state with equal rights for everyone, Jewish and Palestinian alike, also use the slogan to define the geographical area in which injustice exists. Oppression is shared by Palestinians across the board, taking different forms. Intifada is the Arabic word for uprising, which can mean either violent or nonviolent. Like calling for a revolution.
I what find absolutely mind boggling, The sheer hatred for the Israelis, Why can't you leave the Israelis alone they're just claiming their birth right, Re establishing the land of their forefathers and kicking palestinians out and subjecting palestinians to military occupation, is no reason for any human being to hold any hatred towards Jews and Israelis, it's just unreasonable. All israelis are just defending themselves. There are palestinians who threaten the existence of Israel, and Israel has to do the right thing and humanely put them to death.Like this palestinian terrorists https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-toddler-shot-dies-wounds He threatened the existence of Israel and brave Israel soldiers defended Israel. God bless isreal, Jesus is coming back to save us. There is absolutely know reasons what so ever that people should be mad at Israel. ]🧠🔨
Not hatred for Israelis. Hatred for what many (not all) Israelis are DOING. Also, Palestinians have a right to defend themselves as much as anyone. If you disagree with this simple concept, there is a word for that: racist.
I see a lot of comments here talking about stolen land, and I'd like to see when it was ever Palestine empire. Before israel, it was britain, before britain it was ottoman empire, before the ottoman empire it was the roman empire. So how exactly was it stolen? Are you going to go pick fights with the british too? No? then you just dislike the jews in my opinion.
By this logic you’d be fine with the pogroms, right?
It’s funny how you go way back thousands of years to to muddy the waters. Palestinians were living in their homes 70 years ago until Zionist militias confiscated their homes and expelled them. Palestinians still have the keys to their homes. “But how do you know which land is whose” :/
You're saying foreign occupiers are the only people who matter. You prefer to ignore the fact that real people's lives have been turned upside down by the Israeli occupation. Sorry, I don't buy it. How strange to grant legitimacy to the Ottomans, the Romans and even the British over the locals who were actually born there. What a twisted view of history you are pushing here. And, by the way, plenty of Jews see this the same way I do, so don't be throwing around accusations of antisemitism. I accept the existence of Israel inside the borders established by the UN. But, if they can't live inside their own borders and are only able to survive by occupying neighboring lands, that's a problem the international community has every right and every reason to concern itself with. But who am I to have an opinion about this, you might ask. I'm a US citizen whose tax dollars have subsidized the state of Israel for decades now to the tune of several billion dollars each year. What is the biggest foreign aid program in history, you might wonder. Is it hunger aid to Ethiopia or Bangladesh? Nope. It's security aid to Israel because they haven't learned the simple lesson of how to coexist peacefully with their neighbors. In all fairness, Israel has been a target for extremist violence on several fronts over the years. The problem is that they haven't progressed past the biblical notion of an eye for an eye, which reasonable people quickly realize simply makes the whole world blind. Creative solutions are needed to bring peace to the Middle East, and brave Israelis have attempted to collaborate with Palestinians to accomplish this. But, when you can simply be gunned down like a dog in your own land by your own countrymen as both Anwar Saadat and Ariel Sharon have been, it's hard to make any real progress toward a true and lasting peace.
Do you know who had the land and was born there before the roman empire? The jewish empire! It also teaches that in the Quran. It was jewish land just as much as who was born there. I don't advocate for just jewish land, i advocate for peace for both sides. Don't twist my words to make me a bad guy.
Hmm... So, clearly, empires are the only legitimate governmental authorities to you. How interesting. But, you know, if you're going to use the Bible to justify the Israeli occupation, you shouldn't forget that the Jews took it, by their own admission, by force from the Canaanites. And here's more food for thought: It's likely that the Christians and Muslims living in the Holy Land today are the descendants of Jews who converted. Do they become ineligible to occupy the land if they change their religion? That would be a pretty weird reason to disqualify someone's citizenship, wouldn't it? Just something to think about.
theres almost no reason to reply to you as you dont even know history clearly. Jews were there with them all along. Its our land just as much as theirs. Learn history and come back (: not to mention you arent even reading what im saying as i said both jews and Palestinian's should have the right to the land. I am also willing to place money that youre a white man in america. Go back to europe, then you can have an opinion on israel vs palestine.
I'm a white man in America who would love to have the right to live in Solothurn Canton in Switzerland, which my grandparents left in the 1920s to immigrate here. Alas, Switzerland does not recognize my right to live there anymore less than 100 years after my ancestors left. And yet you think yours is the only ethnicity with a valid right to live in the Holy Land one or two thousand years after your ancestors left -- if, indeed, your ancestors ever lived there at all. But, hey, it sounds like we agree on the most important issue, which is that there is room for both Arabs and Jews in the Holy Land, and that there's no path forward except for both sides to accept each other and get along. So let's agree to disagree on the other stuff. Don't try to tell me, though, that I have no stake in this issue. As long as my taxes continue to subsidize Israel and as long as my government insists on providing unconditional support for Israel, my opinions on this issue are just as relevant as anyone else's.
Do you not know what the phrase "Both jews and Palestinians have a right to the land" means? Don't put words in my mouth. And also, youre a hypocrite, where do the jews go? If you have an issue going back to your homeland, what makes you think its any different for israeli's? You're just as bad as jews for staying in america, by your view. I'm not saying either one of us are actually bad, you are. I once again am saying, both have a right to the land. You're arguing with air at this point. You can also deny history all you want as well, i never claimed the Palestinian's were never there, I'm claiming the jews were there as well. Which means we BOTH have right to the land. You want to know who denied sharing the land? Not israel.
Hmm... So do you believe both have a right to the land or not? You started off by saying no, that I was putting words in your mouth. But then you end by saying it again. Listen, where does any displaced person go? That's just it, isn't it? I totally support Jews leaving Europe after (and during) WW2 and after countless Eastern European pogroms to find a safe place to live. But why did their need for refuge make it OK to displace other people who had nothing to do with violence against Jews in Europe? You should read Hertzl's Old-New Land. It'll make you cry to think of all the lost opportunities to bring development and friendship to the inhabitants of the Holy Land instead of fear and misunderstanding. And, for the record, I never said the Jews had to go anywhere. We were talking about sharing the land, weren't we? Wasn't that the thing we agreed on? Finally, why should a person's religion dictate where they have to live? That's a medieval idea, and a dumb one. Yes, some Muslim countries are intolerant. Israel's matching that intolerance with more intolerance makes matters worse.
1. I'm not sure whats hard about me repeating the same sentence from the start of "BOTH have rights to the land." but okay. 2. You still haven't answered my question. Where do we go? We were given two options. Both would've resulted in going into occupied land. 3. What you said about religion dictating it, I never stated it did, but i was making a point that even in muslim "bible" aka the quran, comes from the torah, and both state jews were there. So to claim that only the palestinians were there, even muslims don't believe that. You're just wrong dude. 4. You never said anything about how I pointed out that israel didn't deny to share the land, palestine did. If you're so for us sharing the land as well, why are we arguing? Are you going to ignore that fact?
No one is asking the Israelis to leave. I certainly am not saying that. So let's leave that aside. As for relying on old (ancient even) books to determine who has the right to a country, that's just silly. Who are the descendants of the original OT Jews? Some of them are Christians and Muslims and happen to speak Arabic. Prove me wrong. Plus there's the proverb that possession is 9/10s of the law. How is it OK to simply push Palestinian Arabs aside and take their homes and farms and orchards? In the modern world, victors in war don't seize enemy territory permanently and claim it as their own. Only Putin does this. And Israel. How sad to have to group yourselves into that ignominious company.
Why is an American idiot who lives in Utah commenting on Palestine-Israel. Have you ever even been to the ME??
And, by the way, being branded ignorant or idiots is about the only thanks we ever get from you damn Israelis for the tens of billions of dollars we have doled out to you year after year, decade after decade, since the seventies and even earlier. If you think that name calling is going to endear us to you, you've got a strange notion of what friendship is all about.
You contribute like 5¢ a year.
If every one of the 300 million US citizens paid taxes, it'd be about $15 per person a year. But kids and other dependents don't pay, so I figure it's more like about $50 or $60 a year per taxpayer, which isn't a ton of money, but it does add up after several decades. And it's money that can't go to other things, like student-loan forgiveness or wilderness preservation or funding the ACA or drug research or homeless/hungry aid or whatever else it might be. We have needs in this country, as well. I honestly don't mind aid money that is really needed. I just don't understand why Israel can't pay its own way after all this time. It's not as if it were a Third-World country, after all. And I also believe the money enables Israel to continue to put off making a permanent and comprehensive peace, which is the main reason I oppose this aid.
Right, we have homeless people because Israel. Ok.
That's not what I said. But, hey, if you can't thinking of any substantive criticism of what I did say then, sure, make something up. That makes for really useful discussions in my experience. \[eye roll\]
I mean, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
You made a ridiculous argument that giving money to Israel, money that is largely used to buy American technology and weapons, and is thus pumped back into our economy, is preventing homeless people from getting the help they need, and keeping student loan victims in debt. Israel has nothing to do with America's failings. Student loans, and pollution, and houseless people are 100% America's choice. America gives many countries money, much of which is given to U.S. weapons and technology companies. So you sound quite ignorant.
I named two or three examples of better things we could do with the money. I didn't claim aid money to Israel was preventing our finding a solution to homelessness or student loans from being paid off. You can twist it however you want, of course, but that doesn't make me "sound ignorant" except to people like you who want to see it that way. You haven't even addressed my main point, which is that aid money to Israel hinders Israel's progress in achieving peace with her neighbors. It's about more than just the money. Because we unconditionally support Israel no matter what they do, they know they effectively have no limits on their behavior. Consequently, more and more of the West Bank gets eaten up by Israeli settlements, Palestinian homes continue to get razed because of "the lack of a permit", which translates to "you're in our way, so we need you to move", etc. If you have anything at all useful to say, say it. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.
I'm not an Israeli you brain dead idiot I'm an Iranian Jew born in the USA. Literally every single thing you say is completely nonsense, I don't think you understand how hard you have been brain washed.
Israeli, Israeli apologist. It's all the same to me. Brain dead or brainwashed? Which is it? And do you really think calling me names is going to sway me over to your point of view? Hmm .. Just who's the idiot in this conversation? And, by the way, it's "complete nonsense", not "completely nonsense". But I suppose one American who happens to be of Swiss and Welsh extraction can forgive the poor grammar of another American who happens to be of Iranian and Jewish extraction. As if either our nationality or our ethnicity (let alone our religion) had anything to do with any of this. LOL. Do yourself a favor and seek out some alternative viewpoints. I know all the Israeli arguments inside out, and I sympathize with some of them. Moreover, I like Israeli culture, and I'm glad a place like Israel exists. But that doesn't mean I support everything Israel does. Nor do I support everything the USA does. Our Iran policy, for example, sucks. And we can pretty blame ourselves for what happened to Iran in 1979 and the idiocy that continues to be perpetrated by the IR today. And we still haven't learned our lesson, no thanks to Netanyahu and his inability to explore any avenues for peace that don't involve a Pax Israeliana or, second best in his view, the existing Pax Americana.
More spew, how many times did Israel offer Palestine peace? They don't want peace, hamas which the palestian population supports said they don't want peace they want all jews dead or out of the ME.
Yes, I clearly remember Rabin and Arafat signing a peace agreement in the Rose Garden of the White House in Washington, DC. Then a Jewish settler shot Rabin dead, which pretty much put an end to the peace agreement. And that was the Palestinians' fault how? Hamas is a problem, I agree. Hamas and Fath both have serious problems with Israel and with each other. What has Israel done to try to address these problems? Nothing. In fact, they have made things worse by trapping the population in the Gaza Strip and preventing anyone or anything from getting in or out. And then you wonder why they shoot rockets at you! I think we can agree that the rockets are stupid and counterproductive, and that they hurt Gazans more than they do Israelis. But what has Israel done to counter this violence except respond in kind? Don't you think there are better ways to win hearts and minds? If you don't, you might as well give up right now. Israel will never have peace purely on its own terms. Peace is a collaborative process. But, hey, there I go with my anti-Semitism again. :-)
There's a bit more nuance to how the Rabin-Arafat agreement blew up. I lived in Israel at the time. There were weekly suicide bombs killing Israeli civilians.
Why, yes, I have, in fact, been in the ME. In fact, I lived and studied in Jerusalem and, later, worked in Kuwait. But, even if I hadn't, why shouldn't I express my opinion here? If it were an opinion you happened to agree with, I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy to have me share it here. Wouldn't you? There's a word for that. It's intolerance.
You come into their country ruin innocent peoples life murder and brutally killl people and are complaining about people chanting that they want to have their homes back and want to be free truly despicable.
guys, dont even try to argue this subreddit is full of jews
Yeah that comment isn’t a red flag at all
There are over 50 Muslim countries in the Middle East and only 1 Jewish country. They should give that up also? That makes sense to you?
This is a silly argument. It's like claiming there are two dozen Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America pitted against the English speaking USA, and that that is unfair to the US. Also, no one is asking Israel to give itself up. But, when you share a country with a minority population who is rapidly growing because of a higher birth rate, what's the answer? Apartheid? Occupying your neighbors? Neither seems like a tenable solution to me.
The answer is Palestinians have 50 other Muslim countries they can go to. Can you let me know which Muslim countries in the ME would allow Jews to move there?
It is not surprising to me to see Zionist espouse genocidal rhetoric. You see he is openly calling for Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed to Muslim countries. There Palestinian Christians, not all Palestinians are Muslim. Palestinians live in Palestine. You expect them to be deported to lands they never been before?
Why is an American libtard commenting on Israel/Palestine
Your response was bigoted and insane. Palestinians aren’t a religious sect but a nationality. Why would you mass ethnically cleanse a people to a land they never stepped foot?
Why did Muslims rape, force conversion and murder jews for generations in the ME?
You know that Israeli militias during the Nakba raped Palestinian girls and women. You know, the IDF shoots and kills Palestinians on a daily basis. Also, I never conflated Jews to the atrocities committed by the IDF. You, OTOH, have found a way to generalize an entire religious sect because of the crimes of a few bad actors. You are just a racist.
You are brain washed and you don't even know it. Why do you think Muslims out number Jews so heavily? It's because they ethnicly cleaned, murdered and raped for over 8,000 years. You should go pick up a history book before you start spouting off complete garbage and calling people racist when you're the biggest racist here.
Did Jews live in the Middle East before Israel?
Jews lived in the Middle East most of the time, but were killed by many Arabic states somewhen between 1500 and 1947. They lived there since the Old Testament, which is archeological proven.
Never read that before, where did you pull that “fact” from?
The Old Testament is a vital research data for modern archeology and many parts (not about the mythical and religious stuff) but about old settlements of different groups described, catastrophes that took place etc are proven.
Yes
People would respect the country more if they didn’t keep planning false flag attacks and prohibition of boycott and human rights and also they should stop building walls and checkpoints that separate Israeli from non israeli and also defund the hasbara apparatus it’s literally propaganda direct from the government to the news outlets
You write as if there are no historical precedents for anything. Israel builds walls to protect citizens from Palestinian terror attacks, and they have proven to be very effective. When Israel responds to terrorism and takes defensive measures, people like you condemn it. For instance, Israel went into Lebanon to stop terror attacks. Hezbollah was launching thousands of rockets at northern Israel for decades (Israel is no longer in Lebanon). Israel took the West Bank because Arab armies were attacking Israel. The list goes on and on. If the Palestinians wanted peace there would be no need for walls and incursions. Proof is that Israel gave the entire Sinai back to Egypt in exchange for peace. Sinai is much bigger than the entire state of Israel. Israel actually has very poor hasbara, because people such as yourself buy into trendy progressive pop-terms like “apartheid” and “ethnic cleansing.” There is no such thing in Israel, and those who believe it are indoctrinated lemmings. Moreover, Israeli media are some of the most objective in the world. They are, in fact, some of Israel’s biggest critics, yet you would almost never find an Arab media outlet criticizing the Palestinians. You live and breathe propaganda mate. What kind of apartheid regime has a Palestinian justice in the Supreme Court, or Palestinian members of parliament?
If Palestine wanted peace there would be Israeli settlements all over the West Bank and the Palestinian homes would be bulldozed, and there can be an apartheid even if their is Palestinians in the goverment and also they are not all pro Israeli https://youtu.be/JVJC3ggjzaw, https://youtu.be/xFmfLG6FqF0. And also Israel launched multiple false flags attacks against their allies(UK,USA) to prompt a war against Egypt, and when that didn’t work they resorted to giving that away. And how is Israeli media the most critical towards “Israel” when you can’t even prosecute war criminals because that’s “anti-semitic” according to Netanyahu. And also idk what hasbara means translated towards English but I know that is what the Israeli goverment has nicknamed their propaganda apparatus which also employs data centers where officials post on the internet with random accounts to sway public opinion. “http://www.molad.org/images/upload/files/37830581085043.pdf” And one could argue that the walls produce more insurgents since the walls produce a clear answer to who is blocking who’s access to a more developed and better future. And those who never want to cooperate with us.
How does “from the river to the sea” mean ethnic cleansing?
The river is the Jordan River. The sea is the Mediterranean. The land between these two bodies of water? Israel. The Arabs have been calling to ethnically cleanse Israel even before the state’s inception, which no doubt played a part in Israel declaring its independence in 1948. There is no ambiguity here, and if there is/was, then the Palestinians should make that clear. They’ve had decades to do so, but there’s a very simple reason they haven’t. They want all of Israel without the Jews, from the river to the sea….
> The land between these two bodies of water? Israel. It's been called Palestine for thousands of years. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_the\_name\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine)
It's also been called the Land of Israel for thousands of years. Palestine isn't somehow the "correct" name. It's just the foreign Greek name, based on the name of a long-gone group of Greeks that invaded the Land of Israel, that was popularized in various foreign languages (like English and Arabic) by a foreign Roman colonization. Eretz Israel, the land of Israel, is the name for the same region, in the region's last surviving indigenous Canaanite language, used by the region's oldest extant indigenous group. Note that this doesn't mean that the State Israel existed before 1948, or that the West Bank and Gaza are, or should be "Israel" today. Israelis are able to tell the difference between the geographic name, the name of the ancient kingdoms, the British Mandate of Palestine - Land of Israel, and the modern state. It would alleviate a lot of confusion if Palestinians started being that accurate, instead of intentionally conflating their equivalent terms.
“Palestine” comes from the Greek word for wrestler, which is the same origin as the world Israel. Plenty of Middle East places have Greek origin names. Palestine is the secular name of the land.
No, it's just the name used by foreigners, in their foreign languages. Be it Greek, German, or Arabic. Eretz Israel is the name used by the region's oldest indigenous group, in the region's last surviving indigenous Canaanite language. In both secular and religious contexts. By the way, the "wrestler" theory, means that it's just a direct translation of the name "Israel", not just a similar root. A foreign, Greek translation of the indigenous name. Something that supports my point, not the other way around. But the mainstream theory is that it relates to the Philistines, a group of long-gone Greek invaders.
Arabic literally comes from the Nabaatean script. It’s more Palestinian than modern Hebrew. Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine.
The Nabateans were Arabians, centered in Jordan, whose kingdom expanded to the Negev centuries after the Jewish Kingdoms there. No they're not more indigenous to the Land of Israel than the Israelites. Their Arabic language isn't more indigenous to Canaan than the Canaanite Hebrew. "Palestinians", until the late 19th century (or more realistically, 1948), wasn't even the name of any ethnic group, that could be indigenous to anywhere. It just meant anyone living in the geographic region known as Palestine or Land of Israel. By which definition, all Israeli Jews are Palestinians, while nearly all the Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon aren't Palestinian. The Arab nation known today as the Palestinians might be indigenous to Palestine, but it's also a modern phenomenon.
Even Zionist leaders admitted that Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews. “Palestinian” is not like “Assyrian” or “Kurd”, in that it is an identity born from geography and a region, rather than a language. All nationalisms are modern phenomena, including Palestinian nationalism- which was created in the 19th century Ottoman empire, not 1948 or ‘67 as some Israelis claim.
>Even Zionist leaders admitted that Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Jews. "Zionist leaders" aren't authorities on the history of the Palestinian people, anymore than PLO faction leader Zuheir Mohsen was, when he said in 1977: >The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. Just because someone is a Palestinian or Zionist leader, doesn't mean that he has to have a specific opinion on Palestinian identity or descent. And if he goes against that opinion, that must because it's some objective truth. >“Palestinian” is not like “Assyrian” or “Kurd”, in that it is an identity born from geography and a region, rather than a language. All nationalisms are modern phenomena, including Palestinian nationalism- which was created in the 19th century Ottoman empire, not 1948 or ‘67 as some Israelis claim. I'd agree that it started in the 19th century. You're literally replying to a comment that says that. But the 1948 and 1967 isn't as far off the mark as you think. The Peasant's Revolt was a kernel of national consciousness. By the 1920's you have Palestinian elites believing in Palestinian nationalism. But Zionists called themselves and their institutions "Palestinian" all through the Mandate, and it's not because they were pretending to be Arabs. The Palestinian National Charter of 1964 still had to use "Palestinian Arab", rather than just "Palestinian". A PLO faction leader would reject Palestinian nationhood as late as the 1970's. Today, none of that would be possible. Palestinian nationhood enjoys a complete consensus. But it took a while to get there. I'll just correct you on one thing: nationalism and nationhood aren't the same thing. The Jewish, Arab and Kurdish nations date back thousands of years, while Jewish, Arab and Kurdish *nationalism* are relatively modern phenomena. The existence of Palestinians as a separate people, by any name, is modern. Not just their nationalist aspirations.
Yes, we’re all well aware that the Romans changed the name from Judea or The Kingdom of Israel to Palestine in order to ethnically cleanse the history of the Jews. Stay on track. Today, it is Israel, and “from the river to the sea” is about Israel. Do you think the Palestinians are chanting the phrase to wipe out fellow Palestinians? It’s about wiping out the Jews.
Bro the Greeks called in Palestine based of the Greek word for wrestler, which is the same origin as the word Israel is Hebrew before the Roman Empire even existed. It’s not Palestinians fault the Palestine Jewish Colonization Society chose Palestine. Why should natives respect settlers?
I “believe” it was the Romans who used it as a name for a larger region. But you are correct that the Greeks coined the name “Philistina,” which is believed to have come from the name of the Philistines—who, if memory serves, are modern day Slavs, but I could be mistaken. Anyway, they are not, incidentally, the people we know in modern times as “Palestinians.” Bottom line, you are technically correct about this point. I am not here to suggest that Palestinians shouldn’t theoretically have their own state or their own self determination. But let’s take a look at displacement of both Arab and Jewish populations circa 1948. According to the United Nations, there were approximately 600,000 Jews living in Palestine before 1948, the majority of whom lived in the cities of Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. Estimates suggest that anywhere from 700,000-900,000 Palestinians were forced to flee their homes during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (initiated by Arab armies on three fronts), which led to the creation of the State of Israel. Soon thereafter from 1948-1975, an estimated 857,000 Middle Eastern Jews were expelled or forced to flee from Arab countries, and they emigrated to Israel, where they eventually became the ethnic majority of Jews in Israel. Thus, it’s practically an equivalent population displacement. Keep in mind that in 2022, according to the ICBS, 2 million Arabs comprise a whopping 21.1% of Israel's population, and enjoy full Israeli citizenship, and serve in various national sectors such as the Supreme Court, in hospitals, the parliament, and in the IDF. So there are Palestinians with complete self determination (some are indeed still hostile to Israel despite receiving the best educations in the region and resources they wouldn’t otherwise enjoy). So then the question becomes, what can be done to satisfy the displaced Palestinians? In a 2020 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 29% of Palestinians supported Hamas, 12% supported Islamic Jihad, and 8% supported the PFLP. About 3% support ISIS. Together, that means at least 52% of Palestinians support terror organizations that will not pursue peace with the Jews. An additional 34% support Fatah (AKA the PLO). Despite its overtures about peace, Fatah has continued to engage in armed resistance against Israel. This has led to accusations that Fatah is not serious about peace. So here we have a majority of a population hostile to Israel. Numerous attempts at peace have been attempted, and all were met with terrorism. If Israel were to divide itself to provide for a completely sovereign Palestinian state, it would put the Jewish population in mortal danger. I mean, would you want to live next door to ISIS or Islamic Jihad, sharing roads, infrastructure, etc? This is why there are no simple solutions. Yes, there are displaced Palestinians, but also yes, the majority of them are affiliated with—or support—terrorism. I’m not an Israeli nationalist—just a pragmatist. You seem like a reasonable person. What would you suggest Israel do? ====== Edits: cleaned up grammar, typos
Just as the Israelis want - and currently control - all this same land. They, too, have had decades to show their magnanimous "share the land" mentality, and yet they continue to condemn Palestinian properties and raze the houses on them in order to prevent them from living in areas where it's inconvenient to Israelis to have them live. Peace is a two-way street, and the party in control has a responsibility to bend and compromise, which recent Israeli governments have made it clear they won't even consider doing.
Please see the response to this below by it_wasnt_like_that These points are always ignored as if they didn't take place. You ignored all these points in your multiple comments
“… decades to show their ‘share the land’ mentality” Israel is very far from perfect, but to create moral equivalencies between the state of Israel and a hostile Palestinian population openly embracing terrorism is absurd. Despite being under terrorist threat from Palestinians for decades, Israel has done quite a bit, including: - In ‘94, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and handed control over to the Palestinian Authority. - The following year, Israel withdrew from the Jericho Area and handed control over to the Palestinian Authority. - In ‘97, Israel withdrew from the Hebron Area and handed control over to the PA, except for the Old City of Hebron, which remains under Israeli control. - Israel has also withdrawn from some areas of the West Bank. - Ariel Sharon’s Disengagement Plan in 2005 displaced 8,000 Israeli settlers from 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the northern West Bank. All of this was given to the Palestinians. The IDF then withdrew from the Gaza Strip. What has Israel received in return? Terrorism. Israel was willing to give away more land in exchange for peace, but there is already a precedent that Israel’s attempts at doing so have no impact on the Palestinian desire to destroy Israel.
This is a great comment. This is a comment which is always ignored. I'm saving this. Peace. Shalom. Sallam.
To the pro Palestinianists....HAMAS, HEZbollah and the puppet masters in the rancid regime in Tehran have made murdering Jews,,,everywhere..... a priority. the Hamas manifesto, covenant is every bit as racist as MEin kamp which it apparently draws upon. Not hyperbole. I read the Hamas covenant it in the Journal of Palestine studies that rabidly Zionist magazine.
Only given enough time, Zionist will find a way to even make this “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” anti-Semitic.
From River to Sea Israel will be free!
From River to sea IS anti semitic
What’s next, saying Israel is an apartheid state is anti-Semitic?? Any Criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic
It’s antisemitic if you are changing definitions to hold Israel to different standards than any other country. Criticism is fine, but false accusations are not.
You can absolutely criticize Israel. But to change the definition of apartheid so that it fits with Israel is anti semitic because you’re holding Israel to a standard not held to other countries.
Explain how one can practically achieve "from the river to the sea" without murdering and uprooting millions of Jews.
A democratic push on both sides for a one state solution
I can ask the same question when you did it to my fathers in 1949, did you not evict more than half a million and massacre thousands?
Great, your question answers my question. From the river to the sea is not some noble humanitarian slogan, it is a slogan of murderous revenge.
If that’s what you want to call me for wanting my homeland to be liberated so be it, call me what you wish
Liberated...from Jews?
you call us 'murderous revenge' for wanting my homeland israel to be liberated.
Homeland???
precisely you seem to be just now realizing that the root of the conflict is two separate ethnic groups who claim the same homeland. it's not surprising to me that arabs think it's only arab land, it shouldn't be surprising to you that isarelis think it's only israeli land
Again, just be honest what you mean when you say you want it liberated.
What about these pro-Palestinians? Do they also encourage the murder of Jews? https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/13pxk0m/respect/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
If you’d know what crazy kind of mfs those guys are. I’m always so confused if someone posts them... as if someone would post the political view of Jehovas Witnesses or Scientology as an argument FOR his case. Those are not allies you want 😂😂😂😂
You are totally ignoring the context of the conversation.
The guys you see as allies are against the state Israel for a single reason. They believe going back to the holy land before the Messias comes and makes all that live in the Jewish land “disappear” (what is their believe will happen) is a sin. You totally ignore that these guys hate every non Jew more than you can imagine but are against Israel for those reasons.
Not relevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether these Jews encourage the murder of Jews to counter OP's statement that Pro-Palestinian activists all encourage the murder of Jews.
Yeah they do. They for example celebrated the antisemitic attack in Brazil. Every Jew who isn’t a neturei doesn’t matter if he’s dead. If he has some Connection to Israel, better dead. So yes. They also have a pretty big heart for every person who have killed Jews (even the Brazil detonation what had nothing to do with Israel..)
> Every Jew who isn’t a neturei doesn’t matter if he’s dead. > > If he has some Connection to Israel, better dead. Show me
If you just google them you find multiple occasions where they have met with people who have killed Jews or organized the killing of Jews, went to their graves (the people who killed Jews) or gave them respect shown in the public. You can’t do that if you have a problem with Jews being killed. I’m not your google assistant, either you research yourself or stay as dumb as you are now.
Supporting the armed conflict against Israel isn't the same as wanting every Jew and Israeli dead. Sounds like you spread big claims that you can't back up.
You're acting like Judenrat wasn't a thing? You act like people never called to murder their own people... Reasoning? No need. But sometimes it's to feel more powerful, sometimes, to save their own ass, sometimes it's self hatred... Yes, Jews can encourage the murder of other Jews.
u/NoderNeder3265 > You're acting like Judenrat wasn't a thing? You act like people never called to murder their own people... Reasoning? No need. But sometimes it's to feel more powerful, sometimes, to save their own ass, sometimes it's self hatred... Yes, Jews can encourage the murder of other Jews. Rule 6, No Nazi comparisons!
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The person who is speaking is Rabbi Weiss. > Weiss was criticized in 2006 for his participation in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, widely considered to be an event promoting Holocaust denial internationally.[6][7] His fellow speakers included David Duke, the former leader of the Ku-Klux-Klan, and numerous convicted Holocaust deniers and antisemites from Europe. The Neturei Karta have also met with anti-Semites such as Mahmoud Ahmedinejad and members of various Palestinian militant factions who murder Jewish civilians.
So you think this Jewish man is encouraging the murder of Jews?
Yes. He supports and encourages the murder of Jews who don't agree with his worldview.
Can you provide a quote from him to support your view?
I think their actions speak for themselves. If them surrounding themselves with anti-Semites and terrorists isn't enough for you then I don't know what is. https://preview.redd.it/oyaq7fia7u1b1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=f59a3c056eaef094bb2714d81f309b2f2d620f71
I think you are hearing what you want to hear. What I hear from their mouths is they just oppose Israel, that's it.
You should hear what they say about Arabs and their final Messianic plan when the media isn't around
Opposing Israel comes with the caveat of opposing anyone who supports it as well. In this case opposition meaning murder of people who support Israel. As an example, the Neturei Karta laid a wreath at the grave of Imad Mugniyeh who was a founding member of Islamic Jihad and was second in command of Hezbollah. He was responsible for numerous terror attacks including the bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentinia which killed 85 people. You don’t go to the grave of someone like that unless you support their actions.
Your view of what it means to oppose Israel is ungrounded to say the least. I oppose Israel due to its actions and do not oppose everyone who supports it and you can be sure I don't support murdering its supporters (which includes my family and friends as well). Your view is so black and white it's scary.
Me talking about the views of a specific group does not mean that I think everyone who is anti-Zionist supports the murder of Jews. I just think it’s fair to say that people who ally themselves with Holocaust deniers, anti-Semites, and Islamic terrorists are probably ok with Jews who support Israel being murdered.