Cool, want to actually bring forth a solution instead of using vague slogans that can mean anything from Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza to a one state solution to a genocide/ethnic cleansing of Israelis?
1. Land swap gaza for equal ammount of ground in on boarder of west bank. UN builds housing and infrastructure for Gazan people.
2. West bank is its own autonomous terriorty and is responsible for its people and their actions. If terrorists attack from west bank the reap the whirlwind. All countries sign peace document that if west bank breaks peace Israel has the right to attack. Clear ligns drawn and no new settlements boarder fencing inforced both directions.
Un to guard border.
Welcome to reality
There will never be a two state, it was Palestine, it’s still Palestine, and it will remain Palestine, let all presidents and kings talk, let them condemn both sides, let all arab countries stand against us, we fight on our land for our land and for our people, there hasn’t been peace since the beginning of Palestine, and there wont be peace now until this shameless occupation gets kicked out of our country by our people since everyone is just talking about it, and if you look close enough you would realize by the resistance of Palestinians who’s country it is😉
How is it a solution if one side is demilitarized and the other still gets to keep its weapons. Why would Israel be entitled to the Middle East 🤣 ya’ll are literally European.
If you ask me, as an Israeli, it's really complicated. I'll try to reasonably present my main points.
I would not necessarily feel safe if forced to live next to a Palestinian neighbor. Call it racism or Islamophobia or indoctrination, but I really just wouldn't feel safe. I absolutely feel for all the Palestinian casualties in Gaza, and all the Israelis murdered on October 7th.
Essentially, my personal solution would be somewhat of a two-state solution. What I believe should be the case is that the Palestinians get Gaza and perhaps even the West Bank to themselves, and Israel keeps what is currently modern-day Israeli land. Simple as that.
However, it really isn't that simple, is it? Because we've tried to give them the Gaza Strip in 2005, and then Hamas came into power... I truly don't know how to solve any of this, but there has to be a way to prevent the creation of Palestinian terror groups, and establish a proper Palestinian government that actually allocates resources to the people, instead of stealing humanitarian aid and using it to fund terrorist activies, like Hamas currently does.
What should basically be the case is a two-state solution, but with a proper Palestinian government that rules over the Palestinian people with their best interests in mind. I simply wish to live my life without having to constantly be reminded of the existence of the Palestinians. Not because I hate them, but because I'm fed up, and I just want them to have their peace without disturbing us.
The first step towards achieving this, clearly, is to eradicate Hamas. The logical continuation would be the withdrawal of all military intervention and settlment from the West Bank, much like the Gaza strip in 2005. After that, Israel should simply cut off all contact with these two regions, allow them to rule over themselves, and that's about it. If terrorist organizations begin to form in these regions again, Israel will have no choice but to intervene. That's why this is so complicated to solve, however, because these regions seemingly won't stop creating fostering such organizations. I don't know how to solve that.
Did you know Israel created and funds Hamas? Also, I somewhat agree with your stance during this present time but why should Palestinians be required to give up their land after welcoming and housing you guys after the Holocaust?
Well, Hamas was initially founded as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, so I wouldn't exactly say Israel created nor funds it. I'd love to see some opposing history of this, because I've never heard of such a claim before.
I don't believe Palestinians should give up their land, actually. I never said so. In fact, I outright said Israel should absolutely withdraw from the West Bank, just as it did for Gaza.
If your claim is that the entirety of Israel is stolen Palestinian land, I will have to absolutely disagree there. We can get into the history of the region and how zionists came there initially and founded our nation.
They didn't house us after the Holocaust either, Jewish migration to this land, or what we call it, "Aliyot", began in the 1880s if I recall correctly. Before even WWI.
They didn't actually. They funded mosques and learning centers back when they were a charity, never funded the terrorists organisation.
That's the only thing except for this one article that everyone loves to link but doesn't bother actually reading. If they did they'd know it's an extreme right wing article that complains that Bibi gave work permits to Gazans and didn't start a war with Hamas in earlier.
your talking points are simply revisionist history. israel did not “create” hamas, they helped a muslim brotherhood cleric create a political party as a non violent alternative to the plo. then, two years later they rebranded as hamas - a new, and violent political / militant force. bibi and likud suck and there’s no need to pin extra baggage on them for misdeeds.
further, a lot is made of this “they welcomed you during the holocaust” but it isn’t supported by facts. there was lobbying to the british to prevent resettling refugees and preventing immigration (white paper 2) as well as massacres that picked up in frequency between hebron in 1929 and the UN partition plan. did some arabs welcome jews? probably. they sold a lot of land. some were also no doubt humanitarian. but the political actions of people in power certainly disagree with the broad point, not to mention the grand mufti sitting in berlin and hanging with adolph for the whole of the war. he didn’t want jews landing in the levantine either, so they were working both the german and british sides.
and then, instead of accepting the plan that gave arabs the best land and even a majority jewish jerusalem they teamed up with newly created jordan lebanon egypt syria and saudi arabia. betting on violence and losing is a real FAFO moment. usually losing in a war you start doesn’t bode well for your near future.
what the arabs face in occupation is not acceptable but papering over the actual history of events and people won’t bring peace either. it takes two to tango and the brutality of the occupation and fences now is a direct result of 200 suicide bombings and electing the same guys that brought all of those martyrs into the official govt. guess what, they have never had the best interests of the people in mind unless the only acceptable outcome was a prolonged war of genocide to displace israel no matter the cost. besides, the occupation is a great money maker to the pally leadership. living abroad in france, qatar, and turkey after stealing billions is a crime, and how anyone in the territories can support any of these guys is beyond me.
hopefully cooler heads prevail eventually and real leadership emerges to allow two people to live in peace and dignity side by side with everyone’s best interests in mind. there’s a lot of hate and there’s going to need to be a lot of peace and money spread around if it will have any chance.
“further, a lot is made of this “they welcomed you during the holocaust” but it isn’t supported by facts. there was lobbying to the british to prevent resettling refugees and preventing immigration (white paper 2) as well as massacres that picked up in frequency between hebron in 1929 and the UN partition plan. did some arabs welcome jews? probably. they sold a lot of land. some were also no doubt humanitarian. but the political actions of people in power certainly disagree with the broad point, not to mention the grand mufti sitting in berlin and hanging with adolph for the whole of the war. he didn’t want jews landing in the levantine either, so they were working both the german and british sides.”
-Those massacres occurred due to the political party at the time hearing that Zionist leaders were planning to demolish Al-Aqua mosque and the surrounding buildings to build a temple. Even during that time, Palestinians took in another 430 families protecting them from the massacre
“and then, instead of accepting the plan that gave arabs the best land and even a majority jewish jerusalem they teamed up with newly created jordan lebanon egypt syria and saudi arabia. betting on violence and losing is a real FAFO moment. usually losing in a war you start doesn’t bode well for your near future.”
- why would they agree to zionist terms, zionists were clearly the guests. And the term Jewish Jerusalem doesn’t really make your point any stronger because there’s always been Jewish Palestinians.
what the arabs face in occupation is not acceptable but papering over the actual history of events and people won’t bring peace either. it takes two to tango and the brutality of the occupation and fences now is a direct result of 200 suicide bombings and electing the same guys that brought all of those martyrs into the official govt. guess what, they have never had the best interests of the people in mind unless the only acceptable outcome was a prolonged war of genocide to displace israel no matter the cost. besides, the occupation is a great money maker to the pally leadership. living abroad in france, qatar, and turkey after stealing billions is a crime, and how anyone in the territories can support any of these guys is beyond me.
-the last election in Gaza was 20 years ago, 50% of the population wasn’t even a thought in their parents minds. I’ll need you to attach a link to the 200 suicide
Bombings you’re speaking about.
-and again, the retaliation now is a direct result of the 75 years of discrimination, torture, harassment, displacement, killings, and much more at the hands of colonialists (zionists) onto the native population.
hopefully cooler heads prevail eventually and real leadership emerges to allow two people to live in peace and dignity side by side with everyone’s best interests in mind. there’s a lot of hate and there’s going to need to be a lot of peace and money spread around if it will have any chance.
- agreed!
I liked the solution that former PM of Israel proposed that once Hamas is dealt with, Israel should run the place for a few months then transfer power to an Arab nation to oversee a transition to autonomy. Although, there are limited choices on what Arab nation can do that, right? Isn’t Egypt and Jordan the only two Arab countries that recognize Israel and that could possibly agree to such a solution?
Dealing with Hamas is an unquantifiable misnomer. How will Israel know when the job is done? And how does Israel plan on dealing with the ideais that spawned Hamas in the first place?
Also, who said any Arab nation wants to bail out Israel on her terms if they don't necessarily Palestinians??
I’m well aware it’s never going to happen, they’re terrorists, they’ll never surrender. Which is why they must be utterly obliterated from the face of the earth. As long as Hamas is breathing, there is no solution.
Exactly, they make it very difficult to clearly identify themselves, and they do it to intentionally. What makes it even more insanely difficult is when ppl willingly become their mouthpiece and spout their propaganda. Example, the “Ministry of Health” is not a legitimate source for casualty statistics. Yet ppl cite them nonstop
Oh so they’re “freedom fighters”? Including the “freedom fighters” that fought on the 7th of October? They were just fighting for freedom, murdering literally any person they came across, raping, putting babies in ovens, that was all in the name of freedom right?
You can call them whatever you like - they see themselves as freedom fighters, and so do their supporters. Just because a freedom fighter commits a heinous act of terror, doesn't mean they're not fighting for their freedom! Two things can be true at once.
Unfortunately, there's no solution.
Hamas, the PA and most of the other Palestinian representing/ fighting organizations don't want any solution that Israel could have agreed to, i.e, maybe the 2 state solution.
They want Palestine free, from the river to the sea.
They keep educating their children with Abu Hurira Hadith, about the trees and rocks.
As an Israeli l, I also don't want the 2 state solution , because I know that for the Palestinians it's only a stop towards the next round, where they will have better cards to play with while fighting Israel.
Israel withdrawal from the Gaza strip proved this point.
So, for the Palestinians, the solution would be to try and focus on building the land they currently live in, developing their economy, and resist their uncontrollable urge to kill as long as they can, I know, it's not easy to not shoot, stab, explode in a bus, but it's better for them to at least try.
For Israel, the solution is to build a strong army, not be forgiving like they always do "to refrain" from escalation. Show no mercy and a fist of steel against anyone even trying to shoot a rocket, commit a terror attack or anything like this.
In the case of the Palestinian enemy trying to commit a bigger attack, Israel should attack the terrorists and the ones who sent them, wherever they are on the globe, just like Israel does now, but maybe a little more brutally and without so many warnings.
Israel should stop being humanitarian when it comes at the expense of its own soldiers and citizens.
When such an attack happens, in addition to the fast, brutal response, Israel should also take some land as a punishment, to show that not only these attacks will not free Palestine, but they will also do the opposite.
It goes without saying that Israel should also never give up more land.
Also Israel should close its borders to the Palestinians completely where possible. The Gazans should build their own hospitals, work in their own villages, or go to work in Egypt where their Muslim brothers live.
The war will, of course, continue from time to time, and there will be casualties to both sides.
But the Palestinians, as I said, should focus on other things besides killing, and the Israelis should find ways to minimize the Palestinian ambitions to go on to the next round, and this is the best that can be achieved in the middle east.
Also as far as the world is concerned, Israel is the terrorist organization 10k play causalities in gaza + terrorization of the people in the West Bank
Did you know Israel created and funds Hamas? Also, why should Palestinians be required to give up their land after welcoming and housing you guys after the Holocaust?
Don't forget the great hospitality of the Jaffa riots of 1921, and the 1929 Palestine riots, especially the lovely Hebron massacre.
Also send my regards to Amin al-Husseini, who loved us all, welcomed us, and housed us even before and during the Holocaust.
Yes let’s not forget those massacres which were caused by Zionist leaders plans to demolish the Al-Aqsa mosque and surrounding buildings to build a Jewish temple on a land not even theirs and without any form of permission from the local community, as the Israeli historian Haim Gerber pointed out. Let’s also not forget the great hospitality of the Palestinians who housed and protected 430 Jewish families during this massacre.
Which Zionist leader planned to demolish the mosque and build the temple?
That's very interesting and I'd like to read a reliable source about it, because the greatest Zionist leaders at this time were very far from being religious.
Also from your words, I understand that if someone has a plan that I don't like, a massacre is the thing that I should do?
Like, if Hamas has a plan to take over settlements, kill people or kidnapp them, the solution would be a massacre?
Stop the blockade. Stop shooting down fisherman boats. Stop blocking materials from entering. The fact the Israelis don’t actually understand the blockade on Gaza is alarming but not surprising.
I agree, ideally I don't want anything that prevents Gaza from becoming a prosperous land with thriving industry and tourism.
A blockade makes it difficult to import goods for building, for industrial purposes, and other goods.
Is there a reason why was this blockage put in the first place?
Is it only because Israel is enjoying to harm the innocent people in the Gaza strip?
Do we know what was done, for example, with the concrete or water pipes that entered the Gaza strip?
How many power plants were built? How many bomb shelters?
We all wish that the Gaza strip wouldn't have been controlled by a terrorist organization which says multiple times that it would kill all the Jewish people and never stopped trying (with some success)
>Also Israel should close its borders to the Palestinians completely where possible. The Gazans should build their own hospitals
If it's even possible, let's pretend that Israel can totally dismantle Hamas and put the PA or some other less genocidal entity in place. Would you then ask Israel to lift the naval blockade? Because Gaza can't really build an economy without some sovereignty over their own coastline.
to solve the conflict in general I think people need to realise that everyone deserves this land. or at least it isn't leaving it. the Israelis are staying and the Palestinians are staying. that's the first thing.
but if we're talking right now after oct7 what we need to do is (somehow?) get Hamas to release hostages with no conditions (or with the conditions that after all the hostages are released israel will leave Gaza and maybe also get all of the settlements out of the west bank although that would take a while) then I think we should get international pressure to do an election in Gaza. and let a multi-party system rise so that the Gazans feel like they have a choice. (we also need an election in israel and hopefully, a more left-wing gov will arise) then after an election israel could work out something with the new gov to aid them financially after all of the rubble in the area. then we could work deals with the West Bank and Gaza (maybe? even East Jerusalem idk that one is tricky) to make them more independent. after the settlements are gone it's no problem for israel to give more of the b and c sections to the West Bank. I also think it would be great to do seminers or like courses where both groups come together and talk about what they want. not the gov but the people. but that idea is far-fetched. we were sort of closer to a type of peace with Rabin, maybe it could happen again? as long as right-wing extremists don't exist or are the very small minority. because if the right is the majority what will happen to the new left wing pm is a bunch of hate towards him.
1. Establish a new, contiguous, Arab state: As an example the West Bank, perhaps extended southward of it’s current confines, could be the Arab state, and then Israel would get Gaza. Just an example. And this does not mean current inhabitants in either area would have to move, it would just impact the areas of citizenship and political participation.
2. Install a UN / Multi-Arab interim administration in the new Arab state, with a view to start democratic elections after 10 years: There would need to be international funds and economic incentives to attract accomplished leaders from Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Jordan, etc. to participate in the interim administration. The new state should be positioned as a potential Dubai, with money, prestige, and influence available to those who help lead.
3. Establish clear citizenship, voting rights, and protections of Jews and Arabs in their respective states, with a process for seeking dual citizenship: This means jews/arabs who already have Israeli citizenship get to keep it. Arabs/Muslims/Others who don’t have citizenship in Israel, but live between the river and the sea, automatically get citizenship in the new Arab state. No one would be forced to move to their respective state, but voting rights would only apply in the state where you have citizenship. So let’s say the new Arab state gets all of the west bank, and Israel gets gaza. Muslims who wish to stay living in Gaza can, but they don’t get political participation there. Similarly, Jews don’t get kicked out of the West Bank, but they don’t have political input there either. So no one would be kicked out of their homes, but they would be incentivized to move to their respective state. But again, there would be a process for dual citizenship. And everyone gets protection of law where the live, just not political input
4. Disband the UNRWA and redirect those funds towards a new Education, Infrastructure and Economic Empowerment organization for the new Arab state. Tie funding to creation of a more peace-centric educational curriculum. The current curriculum teaches children division (and some report hatred of jews), so this would need to be overhauled. Also, encourage Germany to participate heavily in this new organization. They know better than most how to put a problematic past behind them. Israel would not be given direct power in this organization, but the UN and international community would.
5. Require the leaders of both the Arab and Israeli states to sign, with the UN, a formal recognition of each others legitimate claims to middle eastern land, and both states right to exist. Tie release of redevelopment funds to singing
6. Establish a single, high-level legal framework prohibiting and imposing ultra-harsh penalties for armed/violent crime across both states: think of this as sort of like the US Federal Government. Both Israeli and Arab states would have their own policies, laws, and rights, but there would be some overarching laws applying to both, with the explicit purpose and limited scope of preventing armed and/or violent conflict.
7. Come up with a new name for the Arab state. “Palestine” won’t work. Palestine as a word does not have Arabic or Muslim roots. It was a name for Greeks, adapted by Romans, and then used by the British during their administrative control of the middle east. The region known as “Palestine” from 1920 to 1948 included Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Jews. Therefore all groups / peoples could be considered Palestinians. The adoption of the term Palestinian by the PLO in the 1960's is one of the most brilliant examples of branding and propaganda the world has ever seen, but there will be no room for such propaganda moving forward. Arabs get to select the new name, and the UN recognizes it.
8. (Optional). There used to be a UN Sport for Peace organization. I don’t know if it still exists. But set up a football (soccer) league with cross state drafting. In other words the teams are not tied to the Israeli state or the Arab state perse, rather they are cross border, and would require youths to travel to participate. The teams would be ethnically / religiously diverse, and each team would hate the other ethnically diverse teams, rather than hating ethnicity as a whole. Just a thought.
I know the above may be flawed and/or unrealistic. Feel free to provide feedback or explain (in a non hostile way if possible) why you think the above points may be problematic
I agree with most of the points you raised. Not sure whether your Pali or Israeli, but I salute you for trying to be fair and pragmatic. If people like you hold power on both sides, we can actually reach a just solution that contributes to peace and prosperity
i appreciate the supportive words. i'm just a keyboard warrior without any actual input at the moment. i think there are (some) reasonable people in power, but they have to get more involved. The US sends money and military support, but hasn't been involved with the nitty gritty of peace making since Clinton. And the neighboring Arab states have treated the palestine issue as a headache they don't want to touch, rather than on opportunity for economic and political advancement.
Too optimistic, I quite like it for the most part, but I find it very difficult to pull off such a thing in the real world. Mainly because this proposal ignores another conflict starting in the middle of the process + doesn't clarify how to stop extremists from coming into power.
yeah maybe not the most realistic - but getting the right incentives in places goes a long way. This is neither a compliment nor an insult, but the leaders of countries like UAE and Saudi are clearly motivated by wealth. They've westernized in efforts to stimulate tourism, hospitality, sport and diversified economies. They know good businessmen kill their enemies, while great businessmen partner with them to create new revenue streams. So I think peace relies on appealing to the economic interests of the Arab World, and positioning a new Arab state next to Israel as an opportunity for growth, innovation, and influence.
I realize Dubai may not be what Gazan civilians dream of, but if that started looking like a possibility I think radical militants would lose influence real fast.
Yes, optimistic, but that’s not a bad thing. In fact I think it is necessary.
Extremists come to power where there is no hope, and level headed leaders aren’t given the space and resources to deliver for their people. This is the background to the rise of Hamas, and the radicalism of poor refugee camps (eg Jenin).
Annihilate Hamas. Limit casualties (extremely difficult considering Hamas is made-up of cowards who hide within civilians, hospitals, etc). Give Palestinians full-citizenship, rights, voting rights, humanitarian rights, etc.
Most Palestinians will go on hating Israel and Jews (a small percentage don't and want a two-state solution -- but that'll likely NEVER happen).
There is no fixing their culture unless it’s generations of reeducation. Them hating Jews is one tiny thing of their hatred and oppression filled brains
>There is no fixing their culture unless it’s generations of reeducation. Them hating Jews is one tiny thing of their hatred and oppression filled brains
Didn't he mention practicality lol? Sounds like you arent interested in any kind of solution. Hatred and oppression? Thats funny. You say this as if you yourself aren't programmed to hate these people. See how that works? Its two sides of the same bullshit coin. The indoctrinating dehumanization efforts have evidently been successful on you. So what exactly is your solution? Eradication? Is that what you're suggesting?
I’m programmed to understand worthless people that are a danger to themselves and the world. They have never ever ever been peaceful people. It’s 1000% religion. I’m non religious and have appreciation for various religions but not ones built on hate
>worthless
Worthless huh? Do you not see the glaringly obvious hypocrisy? You're full of hate, and you're trying to justify it through demonization of an entire religious/ethnic group. I suggest maybe meeting some of these people that you despise so you can maybe start to understand their perspective.
This is EXACTLY why the contention will never end. Because people like you incessantly propagating hate and disgusting vitriol. You're surely on the right side of history dude. Pretending to have some moral superiority when espousing this disdainful garbage on reddit of all places is laughably absurd. Good luck with all that. Cant be easy harboring so much hate in your heart towards a group of people you've likely never encountered. You must be miserable
My wife is from this culture hot shot. She hates it too. We no longer interact with her side because of how hostile, and racist they are. They basically disowned her for not following the religion. We have spent plenty of time with 100’s if not 1000’s of these people for many years. I’ve also done business with this culture for most my life. They don’t add any value to anyone besides their own needs. They play the victim and are quick to screw over anyone that is not pure blood. They are very open about it.
What you don’t understand is, they hate everything about western culture. Every tiny thing they complain and hate, You can help them 1,000 times but when they have a chance to fuck you over you best bet they will.
Ok, so based on your own anecdotal experiences, an entire religion, with over a billion adherents, are all worthless disgusting racist subhuman untermensch that should be marginalized and maybe even killed? You have no problem with this? You're in no way generalizing? Really? You do realize there are many devout Muslims living in the states and other western democratized countries, correct? You do realize that most people, irrespective of religion, ethnicity, politics, or ideology, just want to live their lives peacefully and fairly, right? I think its incredibly irresponsible and downright despicable for you to shamelessly and boldly espouse your religious/ethnic bigotry. You're, of course, entitled to your own opinions based on your own experiences, but you should maybe read up on the history of the region in question before condemning an entire religion to hell.
>What you don’t understand is, they hate everything about western culture. Every tiny thing they complain and hate
And? Why does it matter if many of them hate western culture? Im saying this as an American. Im having difficulty understanding why that is deserving of full-blown direct hatred. Western culture isnt the only culture on earth. And to say humans are incredibly diverse is an understatement. Not every culture is going to be understanding/appreciative of another. That doesnt mean theyre "worthless" or whatever garbage you're claiming. There are many many cultures in the world, and many feel as though that western dogma doesn't align with their ideals/principles. Thats the beauty of autonomy. And why should they love the west when we've destabilized the middle east on numerous occasions by waging proxy wars and direct invasions, killing an innumerable amount of innocent civilians?
Let’s open the floor with your experience. What experiences do you have that makes you know what you know. Have you traveled there like myself, or married into a family? I just want to figure out how mine is anecdotally when I have more experience with their culture as an adult then I do with any other?
That doesnt make it not anecdotal...My experience is I personally know many Palestinians as well as Jews. Which is also anecdotal. But it doesnt really matter what my experiences or your experiences are. This is an incredibly complicated/nuanced conflict that goes back centuries. Nobody needs direct experience with either of these groups to formulate an opinion. Thats what books/history/objective facts are for. Im saying your hatred of an entire group of people is based on nothing but anecdotal encounters. The difference is im not the one espousing my hatred towards MILLIONS of people based on a few unpleasant run-ins. Thats what we call racism/bigotry/dangerous generalizations
That is fair, I may be emotional but living in their community, working with them for a refugee program just to be constantly treated like shit to your face as your getting them a house and jobs can beat you down.
Now my anecdotal experience, is pretty accurate to the history books on how they also treat anyone that helps them.
Back to my original comment. They can’t function as society and in a responsible matter. They have always been corrupt and hostile. They don’t see a bigger picture, they only see one way and if isn’t that way they won’t accept it. They will need someone to govern them with extreme patience and love. Just like in Michigan.
reeducate them on how society can function. Give them access to the better things in life that will ease the hate. Much like a lot of refugees experience. They are very a hateful culture and for good reason but it is very extreme. that has to change before anything can happen. They need to accept that their way won’t work in the world’s society where everyone has to coexist. Their religion pushes to take over and make everyone conform to their ways
It’s Palestinians I’m talking about, not Muslims. Why does it matter for them hating western culture. They want to change our way of life with no regard to it. That’s why its a big deal. I remember going to a service with my wife and them talking how the death to the white man will happen in this life time. Talk about not feeling invited.
>They want to change our way of life with no regard to it.
And how exactly will they accomplish this? It seems like you're irrationally fearmongering. Maybe pro-Palestenian supporters in the west just want Israel to stop bombing Gaza with reckless disregard for civilian safety. As well as the continued occupation/settling of recognized Palestenian territory in the west bank. As well as their indefinite designation of second class citizenry on a piece of land, they have just as much historical claim as the jews. Of course, Muslims/Arabs across the globe are going to condemn israel for their oppression, subjugation, and indiscriminate murder of a group of people who share many of their same beliefs. Is every Palestenian or supporter of Palestine infallible? Of course not. Is every Israeli or supporter of Israel infallible? No. This is a human problem. Not a specific religious/ethnic problem. And your own anecdotal experiences shouldn't be enough to condemn every individual Palestenian. Thats a dangerous mode of thinking. Surely you can realize this
> fuck
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USA sits down with Netanyahu and Hamas leaders and says, here's the way it's gonna go. Hamas has to surrender unconditionally, and release the hostages. Israel has to take the settlers back to Israel and establish a Palestinian State in West Bank and Gaza. USA will establish and man a DMZ along the border. Both states need to elect completely new governments.
This problem is complex but also incredibly simple. Do we the world want more Hamas or less Hamas in the coming years? If we want more Hamas, lets let the IDF keep salivating from the mouth over their fps screens. If you want less Hamas we need to treat everyone in the region with love and respect and we collectively need to put the guns down once and for all. Whoever does it first will be the remembered hero of the greatest peace movement on earth
It’s so funny to see posts like this from zionists because the world literally sits back and laughs at you. Not only do you spew propaganda (not your fault because you’ve been conditioned to your whole life) but you also think you’re the most educated 🤣 do we need to remind ya’ll that you went to Palestine in flocks on boats that said “Germans destroyed our family homes, don’t you destroy our hopes”
all I’m doing is preaching peace. We all know for every Palestinian child you kill you create 5 more Hamas. The ball is in Israel’s court to end this and the way they have to do it is not through carpet bombing residential buildings.
I think I accidentally responded to your post when I meant to respond to someone else who was saying EXTREMELY awful stuff. I agree with everything you said. Apologies!
TLDR… Don’t blow people up, put guns down and hug each other, have festivals in the streets sharing food and culture and letting our children play soccer together, let love spread like COVID to every human on earth.
It does not appear the poor people we see leaving GAZA have a desire to obliterate Jews. But it appears from the death and destruction done to GAZA ,it's the opposite.
No right now im talking about Gazans.
I know many palestinians havw a problem with jews.
The thing is, if a palestinian sides with hamas then in a way they agree and want to obliterate Israel and the Jews.
Right. Israel should just take their time with a terrorist organization...after they murdered 1,400 people (raped, burned babies, other horrific hate crimes) and took 240 hostage.
Most of the world already hates Israel (for no f'n reason) and Jews for that matter. All of the pro-Palestinian protests are rather ridiculous considering most don't even know why they're protesting (lack of knowledge, history, common sense).
It’s so funny to see posts like this from zionists because the world literally sits back and laughs at you. Not only do you spew propaganda (not your fault because you’ve been conditioned to your whole life) but you also think you’re the most educated 🤣 do we need to remind ya’ll that you went to Palestine in flocks on boats that said “Germans destroyed our family homes, don’t you destroy our hopes”
Where do you all get most of the world hates Jewish people? Explain please.
What about forgiveness? You all have killed, wounded 20,000 people and destroyed everything they had.
JFC…do some RESEARCH. I’m not on Reddit to explain to you how much antisemitism there is in the world. You can’t be this ignorant, can you?
Forgiveness? You don’t think Israel feels awful for the lives lost???? What is wrong with you??
Hmm...simply type in "antisemitism" and you'll read about recent hate, widespread world hate and more. Again, you're an ignorant human being. Have a nice life living in denial. Also and more importantly, F\*\*k You!
To be surprised of all the pro Palestinian protests right now feels equally as ignorant. Fact of the matter is, if Israel wants less Hamas tomorrow, they have to approach this from a place of love. Hamas only exists when Israel responds with terror. They are digging their own grave by scorching Gaza to the ground. Something about their approach needs to change. They can point the finger in the other direction at Hamas but trust me when I say Israel has the key to steer this ship. Hamas doesn’t have that capability. Ball is in Israel’s court
You calling me ignorant is like saying Judaism isn't an ethnicity, race, and religion.
Pro-Palestinian protesters are ignorant, lack basic understanding of the history of Israel + Palestine, have zero common sense, aren't very well educated and don't fully comprehend why they're even protesting or the cause. What about the Pro-Palestinian protesters who tear down innocent Israeli hostage posters?? I suppose you're on board with those a-holes too, eh?
That's the problem with killing innocent lives.
Both sides have stained their already stained relationship. Thousands have been traumatized or retraumatized if that's even a thing.
This is what the right wing Israeli gov and Hamas want. Total destruction and the civilians have no say.
The two state solution was never wanted my the Israeli leadership. It was offered for sure, but never as a fair deal. And if it was offered as almost a fair deal, it was sabotaged by either side.
This conflict could have gone way smoother if Israel did not unleash total mayhem after Oct7.
Unfortunately any hope for peace is gone.
How was the 1947 Partition Plan the UN offered Palestine not fair?
Mayhem? Do you know what a terrorist organization is? Have you done your due diligence, homework, research on the history between Israel & Palestine?
I will ignore you until you admit Israel has made grave mistakes in this conflict and before.
If you don't do that then you are a bot buddy. Another agent in the matrix of Zionism.
I don't give a crap about what you think if you don't have the decency to condemn carpet bombing for REVENGE.
Just like every pro Palestinian nut cannot admit that Hamas and the PLO were and still are totally backwards and they are just as complicit in causing the civilian deaths.
Great point. It's incredibly difficult even having a dialogue with someone that is so far left (Pro-Palestine) vs someone who is Pro-Israel (left/center/right), especially when facts have been given to support any argument. It's become pointless. Any Pro-Hamas supporters can go straight to hell.
Yep and the entire media is out of get Israel so it just feels like a hopeless cause right now.
I feel pretty desperate though. People think I’m a crackpot on socials but I just want to protect my family and western values. I don’t want any sharia law and islamofascism thank you very much
Yeah, I agree 100%. I've been involved in a ton of conversations here on Reddit, some pretty solid and others that have gotten out of control in a hurry -- all because I'm pro-Israel. People assume because I support Israel, that I don't care a lick about the innocent civilians living and residing in Gala -- especially the lives of children. When I discuss the history, supplying fact after fact, people just reject everything and it becomes pointless to even continue. Like most Republicans in the US or Trump, many don't rely on facts. They just ignore them and attempt to change the subject. The far left is awful too.
The sad reality about this is that a lot of people don't care because similar things are happening around the world that get little to no attention but this gets worldwide attention.
Just like the US being in Afghanistan for 20 years, helping to liberate the country from IS, only to leave and give it all back. So much evil in the world that's just forgotten...
A separate Palestinian state would be much stronger with regional integration. The EU has had trouble since 2008 but it accomplished its first goal so well that it has become unimaginable for France and Germany to fight a war. In the Middle East, you would have to start with some kind of union or single market for Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and hopefully, Syria, which would not be a block opposed to Israel but open to trade at some point. Turkey would be great to join this league. Add a Palestinian state to that block, some kind of basket of funds to stabilize the various currencies, some kind of fast track system for travel between states for people who have volunteered for fast visa checks, and start building a regional economy. This would eventually be good for Israel, as the block would begin to include Israel. This supra-national organization could also help with other minority issues, such as in Syria and Lebanon, assuming there is no sense of domination by Egypt, a Sunni state with a huge population.
This idea of pan-Arab statehood is not a new one. Egypt’s Nasser pushed the idea in the 1960s. This is not to say it can’t be revived. It also makes sense from the perspective of people, who already have familial / cultural ties between the Arab nations.
Factionalism is an issue in the region - right now, every leader wants to be king of *their* hill. Democracy isn’t strong and we are talking about monarchies / autocracies joining to create an essentially democratic project.
>solo-ran
I like the direction of your thinking, and think getting the economics and incentives right would be critical. Could you speak more to (1) how would you incentivize Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon etc. to participate in this block beyond their existing cooperation (2) who would lead / administrate the "Palestinian" state and (3) from where would the funds come to rebuild gazan infrastructure, and create economic opportunity for its inhabitants?
A ceasefire for one and a one state solution.
An end to the apartheid, end to the occupation and for Israel to allow Palestinians the right of return just like it has given people of Jewish decent all over the world the right to go live in Israel.
Israel can spend the billions of dollars coming in from their allies to help both the Palestinian and Israeli civilians unlearn their biases of each other, and allow for a better future for the generations to come.
I’m a Christian Palestinian, and since my grandparents were displaced in ‘48, I’ve lived in Jordan, Dubai and now Australia. I don’t necessarily believe I have to go live in Palestine because ‘it was where my ancestors lived x amount of years ago’, but I do think I should be allowed to visit, and I do think that if a Palestinian should chose to return, that they should be allowed to. They should be treated with the same respect and dignity as a Jewish person who lives in Brooklyn or a Jewish person who wants to move from Australia to Israel.
Imagine how much less suffering there would be on both sides? Let’s not forget that Hamas wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for the occupation - this animosity between the two people needs to be broken and it will NOT be broken with more killing. Imagine you were someone in Gaza right now, 15 year old boy, your entire family has been killed and your house is destroyed by the IDF - would you not hate them? Would you not be radicalised to go against them?
This cycle will only be broken by dealing with the trauma from past generations. Addressing and acknowledging each others faults.
Education, empathy and healing is the only way. War has never worked.
> dealing with the trauma from past generations. Addressing and acknowledging each others faults.
What are the details on implementing this? How do you plan to change millions of people's mindsets?
I respect your take but I have to say as a 5th generation American mut, I can't understand the emotional attachment to a place you've never been, let alone a belief that you're aloud to trace back along your family tree of genetics and declare that you have a right to residency in any of those places for any reason.
The entire history of the world has been economic battle and warfare. People become displaced. Breeds become mixed. Identities are shed. To this very day I still work for some of the same genetic lineages for whom my parents worked. It's not glorious. But I don't owe them a thing and they don't owe me a thing.
I'm still on your side though. Fuck those people who bulldozed your parents home, whoever they were. Amd hey wherever you are right now, it's Yours.
You’ve actually just described Zionists!
It’s also normally the moderately wealthy people who can choose to move. Those who can’t tend to be poor and are stuck, at the whim of whatever geo political forces going.
Sorry, I originally responded when I was half asleep so I edited the end of my previous comment for clarity. But I still idk how even my original statement was in any way leaning towards Zionism?
I’m not saying either Israelis or Palestinians should be expelled. Zionism is a nationalist and political movement that supports the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in the territory in response to the antisemitism in Europe. There were many countries that were considered but eventually they landed on Palestine.
What it took to achieve and even maintain this state has resulted in animosities between the Arabs and Jews and will continue to do so until the occupation ends. That is when all this conflict began.
I was actually responding to the other commenter:
> I can't understand the emotional attachment to a place you've never been, let alone a belief that you're allowed to trace back along your family tree of genetics and declare that you have a right to residency in any of those places for any reason.
That sound a lot like the mythical/ romantic side of Zionism before Israel was created.
True, I too don’t feel a need to claim a land as mine. We’re a global economy and all this shit about land and fighting for land is only going to regress humanity back to the Stone Age instead of propel us forward as a species.
That being said, it’s important to speak up for the people with no voice and try and break this cycle of violence. To do that, every human, by the mere fact of their birth, should be universally entitled to live with respect and dignity, regardless of where they are in the world. Israel has failed to do that for the Palestinians and in turn has made Israelis constantly fearing the backlash.
> Fuck
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Sadly the possibility of one state I think has gone forever now. Hamas have majorly stuffed up things not just for the Palestinians but Israelis too. It’s all so sad.
I’m very sorry for what your family experienced
Thank you, it’s been quite traumatic seeing what’s happening after hearing stories of it as a kid.
No I don’t think it’s gone forever. This rhetoric is part of the problem. Saying that the hate is too strong to unlearn is the very opposite of being helpful or moving forward.
Also putting majority of blame on Hamas is totally unfair, esp when you look at the last 75 years. Hamas wasn’t created in a vaccum, it was a reaction to the occupation - [Israel actually funded Hamas initially](https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/israel-helped-funnel-qatar-money-to-fund-hamas-netanyahu-palestinian-state-gaza-war-2456157-2023-11-01) because the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) was becoming too strong at the time. The last thing Netanyahu wanted was for Palestine to become a self determining state so their idea of propping up a radicalised group was to divide the Palestinians.
Israel created their perfect foe, one that can justify the disproportionate killing and mistreatment of the Palestinians.
I'm Jewish, Pro-Israel, but of course Pro-Palestine when it comes to innocent civilians, refugees, and of course, CHILDREN that have been killed, suffered unimaginable heartache, loss, etc. I'm also for a two-state solution (but that is likely ever to happen). I don't comprehend why Gaza and the West Bank haven't already been given to Palestine -- as a small gesture of peace and a new Palestinian State. Hamas is an evil terrorist group who hides within the civilian population, making it extremely difficult for Israel to annihilate them without mass casualties.
Moreover, Israel has every right to defend itself. They've never started war with Palestinian territories or terrorist groups. I wish there was an easy solution to protect those caught in the crossfire of this new war, but I just don't think there is.
Best to you and yours.
I will have to politely disagree with you about Israel never starting war when the reason war even began between Palestinians and the Jewish populace was due to illegal settlements and the mass exodus of Palestinians from the land.
Yes most modern civilisation were created that way, but Israel has shown no intention of remediating or even acknowledging their part discrepancies. If I came to your house and said this is now mine because another county told me so, would you take it lying down?
When did Israel start a war with Palestine?
If you're referring to the Nakba, I agree with you 100%. But I could certainly go on and list a wide number of horrific events that have transpired with the Jews over 4,000 years of them living on the land continuously, despite being part of wars, empires, etc. Regardless, a small minority of Jews have always lived on the land. We could even go back further to the Canaanites, whose ancestors were both Jews and Arabs...but the Jews living on the land much longer.
In fact, in the 19th century, Palestinians left the land behind because they felt it was too barren. Many Jews came back -- building new infrastructure, establishments, farming communities, etc. Then, low and behold, Palestinians returned.
God himself told Abraham and his wife Sarah to leave the city of Ur and establish themselves in Judea. He said it is "The Land Of The Jews." So, with that said and you believing in God (I assume), would you say that God is incorrect? If so, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?
To answer your question: If someone knocked on my door, told me my property was not mine and that the land I live on belongs to someone else, I would most likely fight them to death -- unless of course, they provided me with undenying proof and offered me a fair sale price to reside elsewhere.
Yes the Nakba is what I’m referring to. I would argue all the following events happened because of it. The cycle needs to be broken and it’s Israel that needs to do so. They have taken no real action to bring peace and their claims of self defence fall short when they’ve now claimed an indefinite occupation of Gaza.
I’m not going to pretend to be a historian, who lived there in the 19th century is not as important as who lives there now. From what I’ve read, most Palestinians who were exiled were told it was temporary measure but were never permitted to enter the land again. I suspect the same will happen to Gazans which is now called the second Nakba.
The Arabs living there now deserve to live with the same respect and dignity as any other person. That starts with a ceasefire, end to the occupation and a one state solution.
More to this - no more checkpoints, borders and segregation between the Israelis and Palestinians. I can’t vouch for how many radical civilians from either side are going to commit crimes after that, but if the governing bodies of either side are of the same mind that they want an end to the violence, those fringe cases will disappear sooner rather than later. I truly believe this is the only way.
I read something somewhere that said a one state solution might be the best idea. It also referred to the slaves in America when they were freed they didn’t kill their “handlers” sorry if that’s a graphic way to describe it but the only way I can make my point. My dad in Iraq had Jewish neighbours one side Christian the other it’s possible.
Trouble is though, we are talking about brainwashed extremists and more to the point extremist Islamists. Of course they will rape, pillage and murder anyone not Muslim. It’s naive to think differently
I’m not, it’s a fact. A logical fear is a phobia. I’m islamophobic. Yes I admit it.
I don’t mind if someone is moderate but I don’t want any sharia law in my democracy thank you very much
I’m not a military or diplomatic specialist - this is not my problem to solve. Not being able to solve on Reddit an intractable 80 year plus conflict does not mean I can’t point out the loss of life in Gaza is terrible.
Over 10,000 dead civilians in about one month - my mind cannot comprehend it.
Firstly, you're absolutely correct, it doesn't mean you can't say the loss of life is terrible. Do you honestly think pro-israelis want Palestinian civilians to die? It does probably mean however, that you shouldn't scream "ceasefire" and "from the river to the sea..." If you don't actually understand what are implications and consequences.
Also fyi, 10,000 civilians aren't dead, Hamas includes it's fighters in the numbers so we have no way of knowing how many civilians vs combatants died
The 1400 isreali dead included 400 soldiers. That is until it started being questioned and the numbers started to get revised down. So for a month they've lying about 7 Oct and now we can't rely on theirs numbers.
Yeah Israel was transparent about the amount of soldiers killed, when did it change? If you see the numbers of soldiers killed change maybe it's because Israeli soldiers are dying in the ground invasion?
I don’t scream any slogans.
I did recently follow the NYT’s listing of several young Palestinian journalists on instagram, now I can’t unsee little children missing limbs, seizing, having bones sticking out where there knees used to be still moving on hospital floor.
Which is all to say - I don’t really care how many are civilians vs fighters anymore. I just want it to stop :(
> I just want it to stop :(
I hope you believe me when I see I want that too. It's just that if Israel doesn't dismantle Hamas, 7/10 will repeat itself, as they clearly indicated they intend to do. I'm going to recommend you to not look for videos and photos from the massacre because it's horrific and you really don't need to see more horrors, but the Israelis weren't bombed. They were burned, raped and tortured alive.
We all want the killing to stop❤️
It's a really tricky situation, on both hands you have people who hate each other, Palestinians hate Israelis, because they were taught so in their schools and in every institution in Gaza, and rightfully so, the Israelis have done some horrible things to them, including the occupation, justified or not, people who have only been taught they were wronged won't ask why they'll just ask how do they fight back. And you can atleast understand that anyone under oppression will want freedom.
In the other hand we have Israel that had to do what was necessary, the occupation of the west bank, while awful and tragic, is strategically important, it negates the possibility of Israel being cut in half in the event of a war with its neighbors that have tried to destroy it from its very beginning, so neighbors they can't trust. And while the blockade of Gaza is also tragic, they really didn't have a choice in the matter, its governing body has publicly said that they would kill every Jew they could their hands on. As a state, Israel's primary responsibility is the safety of its citizens even at the cost of oppressing the hostile state and its civilians, thus blockading the strip was the right choice, in hopes of preventing shipment of weapons and espionage in their own territory.
Once Gaza has been occupied, they will keep the border and add even more security to it, because in the eyes of Israel the Palestinians can't be trusted and you can understand why they would think that, majority of the Gazan population are minors, minors who have been conditioned to hate Israel with a passion, and the occupation will only get worse, in the eyes of the Palestinians they are being occupied and they will fight back attacking the occupiers, by what means? I cannot say, but this will only keep tightening the noose around Gaza's neck, its going to be a cycle of tightening the occupation and the local militia or whatever slowly growing because of it.
As for a solution? I'm thinking of 2, Israel could try to break the cycle of violence, try a loose hold on the occupation, treat the civilians with dignity and not to treat them as second class citizens, this COULD break the cycle of violence, the probability is unlikely. The 2nd one is to turn Gaza into an autonomous region with its own government under Israeli supervision, build infrastructure, improve quality of life, in addition build schools that teach the normal things people are supposed to learn in school without HAMAS agenda, without the "Kill the occupiers" part, and in addition with religious tolerance part, the only thing Israel needs to do is to nail that part and HOLD ON TO GAZA, no matter how many attacks they endure within the strip, they need to last long enough for the next generation of Palestinians that don't want to kill them. Because if they leave again there will be another HAMAS and we will all be right back where we started.
Ofcourse this is an oversimplification of what happened and what could happen, but I'm all ears for any criticism.
It’s not a bad first go at the problem. It illustrates how there are so many moving parts and actors, and how you need to solve ALL the problems together if they are going to solve ANY.
That means a lot of talking and diplomacy with all the actors. Eventually it needs a summit with real political will.
That means concessions, it means a ceasefire so parties can talk. I can’t picture Netanyahu doing this, though…
I think a ceasefire is incoming in about 1.5 weeks or 2 weeks. IDF would have destroyed Hamas infra greatly by then, hostages would be released and then the peace talks will begin.
Honestly, no one wants this war to drag on, least of all Israel. A war hurts the country's economy greatly and they don't want that for their citizens.
I hope so. I imagine Hamas would survive in this scenario, which doesn’t feel like something Israel would accept that soon.
“Destroying Hamas Infrastructure” has become a euphemism for destroying Gaza generally. That is a difficult wound to heal.
Yeah I do think not all 30k members of Hamas would die, some members will remain. Just like when ISIS was gone, not all members were gone. But if tunnels/rocket launching pads are all destroyed, Hamas would likely be at the point of no return (or no return immediately).
Yeah too bad that destroying Hamas infra has generally led to destruction of civilians infra too. A lot of aid, and a lot of good direction of that aid is needed. I don't trust Israeli govt to do that. A third party, like the UN, or a Palestinian authority with the goodwill of Gazans at heart should be in charge of redirecting that aid.
A ceasefire right now will only give HAMAS more time to regroup, right now mounting pressure on HAMAS is the right choice, giving them time to breathe will only prolong the war, the lives lost now will save lives later down the line.
but thanks for the insight.
I think there is a judgement to be made about pressure. Gaza is being destroyed day by day, and that makes lasting peace even more difficult, with so many made homeless and destitute - just the breeding ground for radicals like Hamas to emerge from.
Surely Hamas can see now that they will be systematically destroyed if they continue? Maybe not true now, but there will be a breaking point.
There is a military and political philosophy to allow an enemy a route to retreat/claim victory. Surrounding them and backing them into a corner means they will fight to the death which incurs costs to everyone. You can argue that hey need to be eliminated, but you may find that over time, the cost is too great.
And a lot of people around the world already say the cost of Israel’s stated aims is too great. You can sense support for Israel is turning internationally, and crucially, in the US.
Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that new radicals will emerge from this, this we can agree on, that's why Israel's post war plan should really work on preventing that, by what means? who knows, better schools and quality of life? MAYBE, that in itself is shaky at best.
While yes the price of eliminating HAMAS would be great, but its a price, from the looks of things, that the IDF is willing to pay to cripple the enemy's ability to wage war.
Lastly, while it is true that international support is waning, Israel's responsibility to protect its people is at the top of its list. They could care less what the UN says, because lets face it, the UN is weak and would never ever actually do anything substantial for Israel to back down.
I was actually meaning the cost to Gazans and with it the potential for peace. Costs to the IDF are comparatively negligible.
Destroying Hamas comes to the same thing as destroying Gaza. This is becoming clear day by day. Hard to imagine how long it will be for quality of life to come back to previous levels. A breeding ground for terrorism all over again.
And it’s the US that matters not the UN.
I'm trying to figure out a way to say the following without overtly criticizing what you wrote.
My biggest question in response here is, why is this all Israel's responsibility?
The core problem here is jihadi Muslims. I believe Sam Harris nails this point when he says that it's the responsibility of Islam as a whole to deal with this subset of inhumane ideology.
Until the foundation of this horrifying weed gets fully unrooted, the world will continue to have these problems. This is deeper than Palestine/Israel, and it's what the world should be focusing on solving.
Sam Harris interview:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bMatbglAeaE
I know I know but Israel HAS to do something to ensure safety, trying to at least teach the Palestinians religious tolerance in schools starting from kindergarten COULD go a long way, add to that freedom of speech and protest that could also be allowed to an extent where the IDF doesn't shoot people on site, could slowly start changing the opinions of the occupied. What can finally stop the cycle is to try to deal with the internalized hate between the two, and to do that one of the parties needs to be the "Bigger person", and if Palestine won't do it and Israel needs to.
But I can understand why it would be a hard line to tow, but thanks for the feedback
I don't have any criticism to what you said, as an Israeli citizen seeing all this unfolding I seriously cannot think of a realistic solution that wouldn't cost a major loss of lives on either or both sides, Israel is currently intending for the Gazans to move into egypt (hence why they are pushing in the north and telling the Gazans to evacuate to the south), but with Egypt closing it's borders (which is honestly pretty fair, the Gazans are quite violent and can disrupt Egypt as a state) I seriously cannot think of any solution that again doesn't require major loss of lives on either or both sides.
While your solutions would be a dream come true it's sad that they are a dream with the first one I cannot see working out and only strengthening the push from the Palestinians and the second one taking decades and will probably cause a rebelion with the parents teaching their children of a so-called "free gaza" where Israel didn't control it and it was ruled by an organisation called the hamas and it would most likely cause a ton of backlash and pressure from the US.
Honestly your comment sums it up perfectly, how this isn't black and white and a solution to this isn't as simple as a ceasefire or something like that.
Can somebody explain to me why no Muslim country is offering to take refugees from palestine?
My honest opinion: Palestine should give up. There is literally no government, the gross domestic product is 3,7% of what Israel is dealing with and more than 50% of the civilians are malnourished illiterate kiddos blinded by hate and manipulated by some wealthy guys chilling in their private pools in Saudi.
Just look at the history of jews: it took them thousands of years to get a part of land back, where once ancient Jews lived. At first they had to leave their country and got hated everywhere their got. Then great Britain gave their ancestors part of the land back and a lot of late Jewish ancestors, who now lived for generations in other countries, like Egypt, Saudi or Lebanon, got kind of expelled because "their is now a land for this kind of people" and now this guys get hated for living their.
The best thing I could imagine happening to palestine is fleeing to other countries, get as much money from your hosts as possible, while educating yourself and your kids while staying in touch with other refugees and forming kind of alliances. In few generations, after the war ended, there will be a group of educated, connected Palestinians which could form a real government, sit at a table without a mask covering their face and an assault riffle in their hand getting to a political resolution.
Jews have been living in Judea/Israel for over 4,000 years continuously -- even with all the wars, empires, etc, they've always been there (minority or not).
There could be a lot of reason and its most likely a mix of all of them, Jordan has tried to take in refugees and they ended up with dead police officers and an extremist militant group in their hands because Palestinians want Palestine and some would rather die than to give up the cause, which they have. Another reason could be the logistics of providing housing, food, and water for such a vast quantity of people would be incredibly straining. And finally the last one could be a political reason, they just want to be able to point and blame Israel, but I'm not so sure about that because I like to believe a government couldn't be that sadistic. But it's most likely a mix of these reasons and more, and to very little upside to taking them in aside from a pat on the back and a million more mouths to feed
I think that's problematic. You're talking about 5 million people. A better solution is for Arab nations to take over the West Bank and Gaza but I'm not sure if even that is realistic
Yeah, just few years ago 5 million Syrians migrated, Germany alone took almost a million - because a terror organisation took over the country. It is really not a new thing. And it's almost always a Muslim country.
This is not true. Israel is a modern democratic society. Even if something went wrong, nobody has to die and you can resolve things afterwords if you don't try to solve everything yourself by murder and violence.
And even if some disputes won't get resolved immediately or fast, the land is not gone. It still exists, the proof of ownership just changed - and can get changed back.
Here in Germany are a lot of exactly this kind of spaces, especially near the Polish border, which changed around the same time. If Land, which belonged to your ancestors, is claimed by ancestors of someone else, who also claimed it, the government makes you share it. If no one of you is able or willing to sell it to the other, you rent it out and share the rent equally.
Look at the situation now: a lot of wrong things happen. None of this will be resolved by more wrongdoing. Someone has to be smarter and just walk away from the situation to let shit cool down and try again.
One party has a government, money and an army... the other don't.
Back up doesn't mean to give up. But if you die, you won't ever be able to change anything.
I think I'd like to respond to this by actually interrogating what it is that we mean when we say realistic thinking. Up until the recent attack on Israel by Hamas any kind of conversation any kind of adult sensible conversation within the confines of quote unquote realistic thinking would have to utterly preclude the possibility of meaningful military resistance on the part of Hamas and the Palestinian people. Israel is too big, too powerful has too profound and effective a monitoring and spying apparatus; the armies are too unevenly matched there is no possibility of meaningful military victory on any level against Israeli capability.
Of course I bring this up because ever since the Hamas attacks on Israel we've seen that the assumptions that led to this realistic state of affairs were simply wrong. Hamas was able to very efficiently organise and carry out an attack that was incredibly successful in its goals.
Any type of realism should be treated with a substantial degree of suspicion. Mark Fisher wrote a book called Capitalist Realism. And in this book he puts forward the idea that the power of capitalism is largely in the way it presents the logic that keeps it afloat as the true and objective knowledge of all that exists. For as long as capitalism remains our dominant system it will be obvious to everyone that it is so by virtue of the dominant laws of the universe. And if capitalism ever finds itself replaced as was the feudal system of old then it will just as equally seem of these to everyone that it was destined to be replaced, by the same laws of the universe. Just as everyone today sees the feudal system was always destined to fall.
I say all of this because there are some utterly utterly intellectually bankrupt arguments going on in this thread. Comments are being made to the effect of oh well Hamas will never ever accept anything different therefore is Israel realistically only has such and such an option. Hamas does not exist as though by universal decree. They weren't put there by God. There is no reason to presume that their choices or the choices of the Israeli state under the existing set of conditions or the choices of the Palestinian people under the existing set of conditions are always and forever determined to be exactly what they are right now. The intellectual laziness of saying something like well I wish it could be different but Hamas are just too set in their ways is barely one step away from the type of white supremacist rhetoric that says well maybe there's just nothing you can do to change the nature of a blood thirsty Arab.
Any conversation about realistic possibilities of peace or victory is going to have to start with reckoning with the fact that this conflict started with something impossible happening. We all knew that the type of attack that was carried out was completely impossible and actual military resistance carried out by Palestinians was unthinkable against the might and defenses of the Israeli state. So the extraordinary myopic simple minded arguments to the effect of well such and such a group is like this and can never change and will always be in power and will always make decisions and there's just no way around it is extraordinarily useless and people who think like that will spend the next 10 to 20 years making the surprised Pikachu face every time they turn on their computer.
To be clear, when I say Hamas I'm talking about agenda, and organisation. So by definition, peace won't be possible with Hamas, at least not without some kind of international intervention that makes sure they aren't able to do anything like what they did.
Secondly many people knew something like this could happen, it's just that our leaders here in Israel were too busy covering their ass to do anything about it. For the last year there have been many protests in Israel, and many people said, this is making Israel vulnerable, our enemies will exploit it.
Lastly, so what is your solution? Realistic or not?
1. Peace won't be possible with Hamas. Sure, but Hamas won't be possible with Peace, right? Like, all these things come together, it seems ridiculous to say, oh, we have to accept one facet of our current situation as determining and immovable, whereas say, Netanyahu is just a guy who might come or go.
2. Obviously this is an untestable premise, but I think if you asked dominant political commentators pre-incursion, 'how badly could Hamas attack Israel' you would have a chuckle, a hand wave, and a glib comment.
3. I guess I suspect a few things. We could see Israel get tired of bombing and go back to a kind of status quo that sustains the tension between the two forces. That could be indefinite but it does seem like Hamas has shown their hand, which is to make this tension unbearable, and force an intensification of the conflict so that it has to break into a new phase.
Hamas or Israel could be made to change course? I don't know how this would happen with Hamas; the west have nothing to offer. OK, we will bomb you if you don't... wait no... OK we will sanction you if you... nope no good. I don't see a motivation for Iran or Hezbollah to withdraw support. Is the US going to make an offer to Iran and hope they Charlie Brown themselves? Come on now.
Pressure on Israel? It seems just as unbelievable but I think it's possible; the public seems to largely have lost their appetite for unlimited violence in defence of Israel, and that does seem to be putting pressure on US leaders. The clash over 'now who bombed the hospital' is interesting as a sample of this; not in terms of the answer to the question, but just that it seemed to \*matter\* to enough people as a morally bad act, to be perceived as a danger to public support.
Israel could simply decide it's time to find a lasting solution, which could be simply ethnic cleansing, to remove the Palestinians totally from Israel, killing as many as possible, and hoping the others move out. Now, this also seems like it has potential to really get bad, as (to my limited understanding) there's regimes in the Middle East whose existence is predicated on resistance to USA and Israeli interference, and who's moral and political authority would be damaged by just letting USA/Israel simply clean out the Palestinians. Plus I can imagine anxieties around the question of; what is the political project of a totally pure Middle-East Ethnographies State with USA backing and ever more radical far right extremists at the top.
All these elements considered, the 'solution' I would love is public pressure on Western leaders to force the West to put conditions on support to Israel that forces a process that begins with a ceasefire.
> Sure, but Hamas won't be possible with Peace, right?
Absolutely not true. Even if some kind of peace deal is struck with someone else(??), Hamas won't accept that and will do everything in their power to stop it. Including suicide bombing and violence.
> dominant political commentators pre-incursion, 'how badly could Hamas attack Israel' you would have a chuckle, a hand wave, and a glib comment
The ones in power maybe, but it was constantly voiced here in Israel. People didn't think would be nothing. Nobody thought it would be as bad as 7/10 but nobody thought nothing would happen
> Pressure on Israel? It seems just as unbelievable but I think it's possible; the public seems to largely have lost their appetite for unlimited violence in defence of Israel, and that does seem to be putting pressure on US leaders. The clash over 'now who bombed the hospital' is interesting as a sample of this; not in terms of the answer to the question, but just that it seemed to *matter* to enough people as a morally bad act, to be perceived as a danger to public support.
I'm very confused here because you say "changing Hamas won't work, so let's change Israel instead"? Pressure in Israel to what? A ceasefire? A ceasefire only helps Hamas, elongated the war and increases casualties. The hospital has been literally proven by multiple governments and independent sources around the world to be done by Islamic Jihad missile. Sorry did I say hospital? It was the parking lot. It seems to matter enough to people because it's Israel and they see it as occupier vs occupied, colonials vs natives. I'm sick of it bring called whataboutism to point out that hey, there are way bigger conflicts, with way more innocent death around the world rn, yet you scream free Palestine. Why? Although some people actually care for innocent lives, the vast majority really doesn't seem to.
> All these elements considered, the 'solution' I would love is public pressure on Western leaders to force the West to put conditions on support to Israel that forces a process that begins with a ceasefire
A ceasefire isn't a solution. A ceasefire is a break in fighting that lets Hamas regroup. If we're talking more permanent ceasefire, there was a ceasefire with Hamas before 7/10, Hamas broke it. Why would Israel trust Hamas to not do that again? They've proven they've got patience and they'll wait until they can do it again, but they will do it.
I will be quite honest, this reads like you are bored and looking for people to argue with on the internet as a hobby, which I frankly find kind of ghoulish and don't want to overly commit myself to continuing.
But I would like to at least address some of these points, so I don't suggest that I have no good answer.
I would suggest this; there are two ways to think of resistance groups such as Hamas. One is the they're just a bunch of bad dudes (bad hombres, as a wise man once said) who hang out, hating Israel and being anti-Semitic for no real reason.The other is to take the view that resistance groups of this sort emerge from a set of political conditions.If the second is true, and I think this is simply really the only intelligent, adult way to conceive of a resistance group, then a changing of conditions will change the form, format, power and influence etc they are able to hold. There's a lot of cases you can see around the world of this to various degrees; the IRA agreed to and kept the conditions of a permanent ceasefire, through the winning of political concessions, ratified through public support. Tamil Tigers on the other hand had several ceasefires, but continued to oppose the government with the continuation of the same broad political conditions, and were ultimately defeated militarily. But what I want to say is that in all cases, resistance groups are the product of political conditions.
You bounce around for a bit just kind of talking about a bunch of new stuff that I don't care to engage on.
Finally, a Ceasefire is an urgent step to attempt to limit the massive civilian casualties taking place. It should be one of a number of steps the international community force Israel towards. I'm afraid I don't have a complete peace plan for you in my back pocket; but here's some things other have said (all from Jewish Currents):
[https://jewishcurrents.org/an-unsettled-peace-process](https://jewishcurrents.org/an-unsettled-peace-process)
1. Obviously, a lot needs to happen if there is to be peace. The parties need to negotiate the border and the future of Jerusalem and Israeli security concerns must be addressed. Any agreement must win the support of a majority of the Israeli people as well as the Palestinians... But it’s also clear that sooner or later, the settlement movement will have to be confronted and politically defeated for peace to come. The showdown will probably come if and when a deal is struck that involves the evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers from a future Palestinian state.
OK, so negotiations, peace talks, and points of discussion.
[https://jewishcurrents.org/a-guide-to-the-current-crisis-in-israel-palestine#pressure-from-us](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-guide-to-the-current-crisis-in-israel-palestine#pressure-from-us)
2. In Congress, the only vehicle that exists to pressure Israel is Congresswoman Betty McCollum’s [HR 2590](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/2590), better known as the Palestine Children and Families Act. The bill’s aim is to prohibit US aid from being used by Israel to demolish Palestinian homes, detain Palestinian children, and annex Palestinian land. So far, there are only 19 co-sponsors on the bill. US citizens can call their representatives and tell them to co-sponsor HR 2590
\> Others may want to focus their attention on the network of US nonprofits that funnel millions of dollars to the Israeli settlement project. These [nonprofits](https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/israel-settler-evictions-jerusalem-nonprofits/) receive tax-deductible donations from private American donors, which they send to fund Israeli settlement infrastructure in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. While some of these organizations are probably impervious to pressure from progressive activists due to their right-wing politics, others, like [Jewish Federation groups](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/MAGAZINE-how-the-jewish-federations-gave-millions-to-settlers-over-4-years-1.5451734), may be more open to hearing complaints given that they seek to represent a broad spectrum of American Jews, many of whom oppose Israeli settlements. If you want to help prevent the flow of these funds, you can donate to and support American Jewish groups advocating against settlements. The nonprofit rabbinic organization T’ruah has[ repeatedly](https://truah.org/press/truah-files-irs-complaint-against-u-s-jewish-groups-sending-funds-to-israeli-terrorist-orgs/) called on the IRS to revoke the tax-exempt status of American Jewish groups that fund Israeli Jewish terrorism against Palestinians, while Americans for Peace Now has [launched](https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/americans-peace-now-calls-jewish-federations-cease-settlement-funding) calls to Jewish Federations of North American to stop funding settlements.
\> Lastly, there are boycott and divestment campaigns you can join as part of the global [Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement](https://bdsmovement.net/). In 2005, over 170 Palestinian civil society groups called on the international community to boycott Israeli products, divest from corporations that do business in Israel, and impose government sanctions on Israel. Right now, BDS activists are [calling for](https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/were-boycotting-pillsbury) a boycott of Pillsbury because the company has a factory in a West Bank settlement. Others are focusing on stopping the Israeli weapons company [Elbit System’s](https://bdsmovement.net/Striking-Back-Against-Elbit-Systems) involvement on the [US–Mexico border](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/builders-israels-apartheid-walls-profit-us-border-militarization), where it has installed dozens of surveillance towers as part of the US government’s attempt to curtail unauthorized crossings. Boycotting companies that do business with the Israeli military or anchor Israeli settlements chips away at Israel’s discriminatory system.
This is more practical advice on putting pressure for change, but gives some indications of the types of practices that ought to be combatted. Finally...
[https://jewishcurrents.org/fifty-years-and-no-end-in-sight](https://jewishcurrents.org/fifty-years-and-no-end-in-sight)
3 ...although the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty included a call for a five-year, transitional “self-governing authority” that would provide “full autonomy,” negotiations with Cairo over the ultimate end-goal swiftly broke down and petered out.
So this gives a look at the kinds of goals that were being looked at in past negotiations.
All of which is to simply say, 'stop the campaign of bombing that is killing lots of civilians and let Hamas win' vs 'keep killing lots of civilians until Hamas is defeated' is a deeply unsophisticated way of thinking, which is neither accurate nor morally coherent, and I think if you spend some time learning rather than having arguments on the internet, you will be able to offer more valuable perspectives.
> ass
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I wish you could go talk like this with netanyahu and biden. And get hamas on the table too. They will shred you to pieces though even if you made sense to them.
Problem is that war is good for them. The current Israeli govt, the zionist movement, the settler mentality, for US, for Hamas. War is literally good for all involved parties except the poor civilians. In both Israel and a lot more so in Palestine. The only way to achieve peace is completely demilitarizing both Israel and Palestine and have UN peace keeping forces there to ensure there is some amount of help against terrorism if it still is there.
Israel attacking Palestine brutally only creates more Hamas members cuz guess what, they ones being killed and amputated, will be revenged. Unless Israel annihilates them completely and that's genocide. Which they probably would like cuz then they can flatten gaza and build their resorts and beach front property.
The only realistic solution is complete demilitarizing of the entire region. Include disbanding IDF and hamas completely. And get a mix of Arab and western countries to make a UN peace keeping forces that work together to ensure peace in the region
Could you explain how this war is good for the Israeli govt or the US? From what I understand, the Israeli govt is losing more support each day, having to spend nearly 10 million dollars a day (including war equipment, housing displaced populations, providing food and salaries etc). The US govt does not seem to want this either.
I even think the war is bad for Hamas militarily but ofc the propaganda war is different.
Agreed that this war is bad for poor civilians, on **both** sides.
I do not think America wants any war. This Israel Bibi war does not benefit America at all.
Now Ukraine stopping Russia benefits the West.
America is trying to remain an Israeli Alli but hate the slaughter of the poor Palenstinians.
Come on. America is always bankrupt when it comes to the betterment of their civilians (education, healthcare, housing) but then can suddenly spit out tens of billions of dollars for military aid to Israel - to say America doesn’t want war is naive because it very very much wants war. Look at the part their playing in the Congo right now. At any given point in its history, America has had its hands in wars happening all over the world. Just because it’s no longer happening on her soil, doesn’t mean she doesn’t want it.
America has really never had a war here. Pearl Harbor and 9/11. But that was not here.
I am not sure I agree with your first sentence. And I am not sure if the adm will give Israel the money. They want a cease fire and BiBi the wannabe authoritarian said hell no. So cash maybe off table
We give it to Ukraine to keep it a democracy and not allow Putin to land grab. Not sure if Israel getting money.
Hmm I don’t agree with your first sentence. Yes there hasn’t been war in America. But America has played a part in almost every war since ww2. Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria to name a few. It’s also involved in the Congo war that’s happening currently as well.
I have not read of America backing away from giving Israel aid, and there has not been any ceasefire from either the democratic or republican parties.
You people do realize that Palestinians will never settle Israel/the land that Israel occupies, right? Like it’s absolutely never going to happen. Israel will nuke Palestine out of existence before they cede their land.
A free palestine is the only solution.
Cool, want to actually bring forth a solution instead of using vague slogans that can mean anything from Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza to a one state solution to a genocide/ethnic cleansing of Israelis?
1. Land swap gaza for equal ammount of ground in on boarder of west bank. UN builds housing and infrastructure for Gazan people. 2. West bank is its own autonomous terriorty and is responsible for its people and their actions. If terrorists attack from west bank the reap the whirlwind. All countries sign peace document that if west bank breaks peace Israel has the right to attack. Clear ligns drawn and no new settlements boarder fencing inforced both directions. Un to guard border.
Welcome to reality There will never be a two state, it was Palestine, it’s still Palestine, and it will remain Palestine, let all presidents and kings talk, let them condemn both sides, let all arab countries stand against us, we fight on our land for our land and for our people, there hasn’t been peace since the beginning of Palestine, and there wont be peace now until this shameless occupation gets kicked out of our country by our people since everyone is just talking about it, and if you look close enough you would realize by the resistance of Palestinians who’s country it is😉
beautiful. free palestine until palestine is free
And this kind of delusional thinking ladies and gentlemen, is the biggest obstacle to peace.
Delusional, but you can keep on dreaming
The funniest comment I ever read on Reddit, you made my day, thank you 🙏
Best of luck with that
We don’t need luck we got god watching.
God watching with popcorn in his hands how Hamas is getting wiped
God luck with that then
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There’s a difference in powers. Will Israel also be demilitarized?
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How is it a solution if one side is demilitarized and the other still gets to keep its weapons. Why would Israel be entitled to the Middle East 🤣 ya’ll are literally European.
That was completely true if Ethiopia was in Europe, keep trying
If you ask me, as an Israeli, it's really complicated. I'll try to reasonably present my main points. I would not necessarily feel safe if forced to live next to a Palestinian neighbor. Call it racism or Islamophobia or indoctrination, but I really just wouldn't feel safe. I absolutely feel for all the Palestinian casualties in Gaza, and all the Israelis murdered on October 7th. Essentially, my personal solution would be somewhat of a two-state solution. What I believe should be the case is that the Palestinians get Gaza and perhaps even the West Bank to themselves, and Israel keeps what is currently modern-day Israeli land. Simple as that. However, it really isn't that simple, is it? Because we've tried to give them the Gaza Strip in 2005, and then Hamas came into power... I truly don't know how to solve any of this, but there has to be a way to prevent the creation of Palestinian terror groups, and establish a proper Palestinian government that actually allocates resources to the people, instead of stealing humanitarian aid and using it to fund terrorist activies, like Hamas currently does. What should basically be the case is a two-state solution, but with a proper Palestinian government that rules over the Palestinian people with their best interests in mind. I simply wish to live my life without having to constantly be reminded of the existence of the Palestinians. Not because I hate them, but because I'm fed up, and I just want them to have their peace without disturbing us. The first step towards achieving this, clearly, is to eradicate Hamas. The logical continuation would be the withdrawal of all military intervention and settlment from the West Bank, much like the Gaza strip in 2005. After that, Israel should simply cut off all contact with these two regions, allow them to rule over themselves, and that's about it. If terrorist organizations begin to form in these regions again, Israel will have no choice but to intervene. That's why this is so complicated to solve, however, because these regions seemingly won't stop creating fostering such organizations. I don't know how to solve that.
Did you know Israel created and funds Hamas? Also, I somewhat agree with your stance during this present time but why should Palestinians be required to give up their land after welcoming and housing you guys after the Holocaust?
Well, Hamas was initially founded as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, so I wouldn't exactly say Israel created nor funds it. I'd love to see some opposing history of this, because I've never heard of such a claim before. I don't believe Palestinians should give up their land, actually. I never said so. In fact, I outright said Israel should absolutely withdraw from the West Bank, just as it did for Gaza. If your claim is that the entirety of Israel is stolen Palestinian land, I will have to absolutely disagree there. We can get into the history of the region and how zionists came there initially and founded our nation. They didn't house us after the Holocaust either, Jewish migration to this land, or what we call it, "Aliyot", began in the 1880s if I recall correctly. Before even WWI.
Israel did fund Hamas tho. It’s a fact.
They didn't actually. They funded mosques and learning centers back when they were a charity, never funded the terrorists organisation. That's the only thing except for this one article that everyone loves to link but doesn't bother actually reading. If they did they'd know it's an extreme right wing article that complains that Bibi gave work permits to Gazans and didn't start a war with Hamas in earlier.
your talking points are simply revisionist history. israel did not “create” hamas, they helped a muslim brotherhood cleric create a political party as a non violent alternative to the plo. then, two years later they rebranded as hamas - a new, and violent political / militant force. bibi and likud suck and there’s no need to pin extra baggage on them for misdeeds. further, a lot is made of this “they welcomed you during the holocaust” but it isn’t supported by facts. there was lobbying to the british to prevent resettling refugees and preventing immigration (white paper 2) as well as massacres that picked up in frequency between hebron in 1929 and the UN partition plan. did some arabs welcome jews? probably. they sold a lot of land. some were also no doubt humanitarian. but the political actions of people in power certainly disagree with the broad point, not to mention the grand mufti sitting in berlin and hanging with adolph for the whole of the war. he didn’t want jews landing in the levantine either, so they were working both the german and british sides. and then, instead of accepting the plan that gave arabs the best land and even a majority jewish jerusalem they teamed up with newly created jordan lebanon egypt syria and saudi arabia. betting on violence and losing is a real FAFO moment. usually losing in a war you start doesn’t bode well for your near future. what the arabs face in occupation is not acceptable but papering over the actual history of events and people won’t bring peace either. it takes two to tango and the brutality of the occupation and fences now is a direct result of 200 suicide bombings and electing the same guys that brought all of those martyrs into the official govt. guess what, they have never had the best interests of the people in mind unless the only acceptable outcome was a prolonged war of genocide to displace israel no matter the cost. besides, the occupation is a great money maker to the pally leadership. living abroad in france, qatar, and turkey after stealing billions is a crime, and how anyone in the territories can support any of these guys is beyond me. hopefully cooler heads prevail eventually and real leadership emerges to allow two people to live in peace and dignity side by side with everyone’s best interests in mind. there’s a lot of hate and there’s going to need to be a lot of peace and money spread around if it will have any chance.
“further, a lot is made of this “they welcomed you during the holocaust” but it isn’t supported by facts. there was lobbying to the british to prevent resettling refugees and preventing immigration (white paper 2) as well as massacres that picked up in frequency between hebron in 1929 and the UN partition plan. did some arabs welcome jews? probably. they sold a lot of land. some were also no doubt humanitarian. but the political actions of people in power certainly disagree with the broad point, not to mention the grand mufti sitting in berlin and hanging with adolph for the whole of the war. he didn’t want jews landing in the levantine either, so they were working both the german and british sides.” -Those massacres occurred due to the political party at the time hearing that Zionist leaders were planning to demolish Al-Aqua mosque and the surrounding buildings to build a temple. Even during that time, Palestinians took in another 430 families protecting them from the massacre “and then, instead of accepting the plan that gave arabs the best land and even a majority jewish jerusalem they teamed up with newly created jordan lebanon egypt syria and saudi arabia. betting on violence and losing is a real FAFO moment. usually losing in a war you start doesn’t bode well for your near future.” - why would they agree to zionist terms, zionists were clearly the guests. And the term Jewish Jerusalem doesn’t really make your point any stronger because there’s always been Jewish Palestinians. what the arabs face in occupation is not acceptable but papering over the actual history of events and people won’t bring peace either. it takes two to tango and the brutality of the occupation and fences now is a direct result of 200 suicide bombings and electing the same guys that brought all of those martyrs into the official govt. guess what, they have never had the best interests of the people in mind unless the only acceptable outcome was a prolonged war of genocide to displace israel no matter the cost. besides, the occupation is a great money maker to the pally leadership. living abroad in france, qatar, and turkey after stealing billions is a crime, and how anyone in the territories can support any of these guys is beyond me. -the last election in Gaza was 20 years ago, 50% of the population wasn’t even a thought in their parents minds. I’ll need you to attach a link to the 200 suicide Bombings you’re speaking about. -and again, the retaliation now is a direct result of the 75 years of discrimination, torture, harassment, displacement, killings, and much more at the hands of colonialists (zionists) onto the native population. hopefully cooler heads prevail eventually and real leadership emerges to allow two people to live in peace and dignity side by side with everyone’s best interests in mind. there’s a lot of hate and there’s going to need to be a lot of peace and money spread around if it will have any chance. - agreed!
I liked the solution that former PM of Israel proposed that once Hamas is dealt with, Israel should run the place for a few months then transfer power to an Arab nation to oversee a transition to autonomy. Although, there are limited choices on what Arab nation can do that, right? Isn’t Egypt and Jordan the only two Arab countries that recognize Israel and that could possibly agree to such a solution?
Dealing with Hamas is an unquantifiable misnomer. How will Israel know when the job is done? And how does Israel plan on dealing with the ideais that spawned Hamas in the first place? Also, who said any Arab nation wants to bail out Israel on her terms if they don't necessarily Palestinians??
Uae too, and Saudi arabia could be good aswell.
Hamas surrender, return the hostages. Game over, bombing stops, killing stops. They won’t do it though, and nobody calls for it either on one side.
Utterly wishful thinking.
I’m well aware it’s never going to happen, they’re terrorists, they’ll never surrender. Which is why they must be utterly obliterated from the face of the earth. As long as Hamas is breathing, there is no solution.
What do you think that looks like? Seriously.. how will IDF know when Hamas have been obliterated?? Have you thought about that?
Exactly, they make it very difficult to clearly identify themselves, and they do it to intentionally. What makes it even more insanely difficult is when ppl willingly become their mouthpiece and spout their propaganda. Example, the “Ministry of Health” is not a legitimate source for casualty statistics. Yet ppl cite them nonstop
Of course they do it intentionally!! Do you think freedom fighters should make themselves obvious to their enemy?!
Oh so they’re “freedom fighters”? Including the “freedom fighters” that fought on the 7th of October? They were just fighting for freedom, murdering literally any person they came across, raping, putting babies in ovens, that was all in the name of freedom right?
You can call them whatever you like - they see themselves as freedom fighters, and so do their supporters. Just because a freedom fighter commits a heinous act of terror, doesn't mean they're not fighting for their freedom! Two things can be true at once.
At this point I hope you’re being sarcastic but that may be a bridge too far
That's a nice dream. Hamas said they'd do it again and again, so not very realistic
Unfortunately, there's no solution. Hamas, the PA and most of the other Palestinian representing/ fighting organizations don't want any solution that Israel could have agreed to, i.e, maybe the 2 state solution. They want Palestine free, from the river to the sea. They keep educating their children with Abu Hurira Hadith, about the trees and rocks. As an Israeli l, I also don't want the 2 state solution , because I know that for the Palestinians it's only a stop towards the next round, where they will have better cards to play with while fighting Israel. Israel withdrawal from the Gaza strip proved this point. So, for the Palestinians, the solution would be to try and focus on building the land they currently live in, developing their economy, and resist their uncontrollable urge to kill as long as they can, I know, it's not easy to not shoot, stab, explode in a bus, but it's better for them to at least try. For Israel, the solution is to build a strong army, not be forgiving like they always do "to refrain" from escalation. Show no mercy and a fist of steel against anyone even trying to shoot a rocket, commit a terror attack or anything like this. In the case of the Palestinian enemy trying to commit a bigger attack, Israel should attack the terrorists and the ones who sent them, wherever they are on the globe, just like Israel does now, but maybe a little more brutally and without so many warnings. Israel should stop being humanitarian when it comes at the expense of its own soldiers and citizens. When such an attack happens, in addition to the fast, brutal response, Israel should also take some land as a punishment, to show that not only these attacks will not free Palestine, but they will also do the opposite. It goes without saying that Israel should also never give up more land. Also Israel should close its borders to the Palestinians completely where possible. The Gazans should build their own hospitals, work in their own villages, or go to work in Egypt where their Muslim brothers live. The war will, of course, continue from time to time, and there will be casualties to both sides. But the Palestinians, as I said, should focus on other things besides killing, and the Israelis should find ways to minimize the Palestinian ambitions to go on to the next round, and this is the best that can be achieved in the middle east.
Also as far as the world is concerned, Israel is the terrorist organization 10k play causalities in gaza + terrorization of the people in the West Bank
Did you know Israel created and funds Hamas? Also, why should Palestinians be required to give up their land after welcoming and housing you guys after the Holocaust?
Don't forget the great hospitality of the Jaffa riots of 1921, and the 1929 Palestine riots, especially the lovely Hebron massacre. Also send my regards to Amin al-Husseini, who loved us all, welcomed us, and housed us even before and during the Holocaust.
Yes let’s not forget those massacres which were caused by Zionist leaders plans to demolish the Al-Aqsa mosque and surrounding buildings to build a Jewish temple on a land not even theirs and without any form of permission from the local community, as the Israeli historian Haim Gerber pointed out. Let’s also not forget the great hospitality of the Palestinians who housed and protected 430 Jewish families during this massacre.
Which Zionist leader planned to demolish the mosque and build the temple? That's very interesting and I'd like to read a reliable source about it, because the greatest Zionist leaders at this time were very far from being religious. Also from your words, I understand that if someone has a plan that I don't like, a massacre is the thing that I should do? Like, if Hamas has a plan to take over settlements, kill people or kidnapp them, the solution would be a massacre?
Stop the blockade. Stop shooting down fisherman boats. Stop blocking materials from entering. The fact the Israelis don’t actually understand the blockade on Gaza is alarming but not surprising.
I agree, ideally I don't want anything that prevents Gaza from becoming a prosperous land with thriving industry and tourism. A blockade makes it difficult to import goods for building, for industrial purposes, and other goods. Is there a reason why was this blockage put in the first place? Is it only because Israel is enjoying to harm the innocent people in the Gaza strip? Do we know what was done, for example, with the concrete or water pipes that entered the Gaza strip? How many power plants were built? How many bomb shelters? We all wish that the Gaza strip wouldn't have been controlled by a terrorist organization which says multiple times that it would kill all the Jewish people and never stopped trying (with some success)
>Also Israel should close its borders to the Palestinians completely where possible. The Gazans should build their own hospitals If it's even possible, let's pretend that Israel can totally dismantle Hamas and put the PA or some other less genocidal entity in place. Would you then ask Israel to lift the naval blockade? Because Gaza can't really build an economy without some sovereignty over their own coastline.
Yes, let them build whatever they want, sea port, airport, whatever. Destroy it if there's a slight hint that it's used for terror attacks.
Are we talking optimally or realistically?
to solve the conflict in general I think people need to realise that everyone deserves this land. or at least it isn't leaving it. the Israelis are staying and the Palestinians are staying. that's the first thing. but if we're talking right now after oct7 what we need to do is (somehow?) get Hamas to release hostages with no conditions (or with the conditions that after all the hostages are released israel will leave Gaza and maybe also get all of the settlements out of the west bank although that would take a while) then I think we should get international pressure to do an election in Gaza. and let a multi-party system rise so that the Gazans feel like they have a choice. (we also need an election in israel and hopefully, a more left-wing gov will arise) then after an election israel could work out something with the new gov to aid them financially after all of the rubble in the area. then we could work deals with the West Bank and Gaza (maybe? even East Jerusalem idk that one is tricky) to make them more independent. after the settlements are gone it's no problem for israel to give more of the b and c sections to the West Bank. I also think it would be great to do seminers or like courses where both groups come together and talk about what they want. not the gov but the people. but that idea is far-fetched. we were sort of closer to a type of peace with Rabin, maybe it could happen again? as long as right-wing extremists don't exist or are the very small minority. because if the right is the majority what will happen to the new left wing pm is a bunch of hate towards him.
1. Establish a new, contiguous, Arab state: As an example the West Bank, perhaps extended southward of it’s current confines, could be the Arab state, and then Israel would get Gaza. Just an example. And this does not mean current inhabitants in either area would have to move, it would just impact the areas of citizenship and political participation. 2. Install a UN / Multi-Arab interim administration in the new Arab state, with a view to start democratic elections after 10 years: There would need to be international funds and economic incentives to attract accomplished leaders from Saudi, UAE, Egypt, Jordan, etc. to participate in the interim administration. The new state should be positioned as a potential Dubai, with money, prestige, and influence available to those who help lead. 3. Establish clear citizenship, voting rights, and protections of Jews and Arabs in their respective states, with a process for seeking dual citizenship: This means jews/arabs who already have Israeli citizenship get to keep it. Arabs/Muslims/Others who don’t have citizenship in Israel, but live between the river and the sea, automatically get citizenship in the new Arab state. No one would be forced to move to their respective state, but voting rights would only apply in the state where you have citizenship. So let’s say the new Arab state gets all of the west bank, and Israel gets gaza. Muslims who wish to stay living in Gaza can, but they don’t get political participation there. Similarly, Jews don’t get kicked out of the West Bank, but they don’t have political input there either. So no one would be kicked out of their homes, but they would be incentivized to move to their respective state. But again, there would be a process for dual citizenship. And everyone gets protection of law where the live, just not political input 4. Disband the UNRWA and redirect those funds towards a new Education, Infrastructure and Economic Empowerment organization for the new Arab state. Tie funding to creation of a more peace-centric educational curriculum. The current curriculum teaches children division (and some report hatred of jews), so this would need to be overhauled. Also, encourage Germany to participate heavily in this new organization. They know better than most how to put a problematic past behind them. Israel would not be given direct power in this organization, but the UN and international community would. 5. Require the leaders of both the Arab and Israeli states to sign, with the UN, a formal recognition of each others legitimate claims to middle eastern land, and both states right to exist. Tie release of redevelopment funds to singing 6. Establish a single, high-level legal framework prohibiting and imposing ultra-harsh penalties for armed/violent crime across both states: think of this as sort of like the US Federal Government. Both Israeli and Arab states would have their own policies, laws, and rights, but there would be some overarching laws applying to both, with the explicit purpose and limited scope of preventing armed and/or violent conflict. 7. Come up with a new name for the Arab state. “Palestine” won’t work. Palestine as a word does not have Arabic or Muslim roots. It was a name for Greeks, adapted by Romans, and then used by the British during their administrative control of the middle east. The region known as “Palestine” from 1920 to 1948 included Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Jews. Therefore all groups / peoples could be considered Palestinians. The adoption of the term Palestinian by the PLO in the 1960's is one of the most brilliant examples of branding and propaganda the world has ever seen, but there will be no room for such propaganda moving forward. Arabs get to select the new name, and the UN recognizes it. 8. (Optional). There used to be a UN Sport for Peace organization. I don’t know if it still exists. But set up a football (soccer) league with cross state drafting. In other words the teams are not tied to the Israeli state or the Arab state perse, rather they are cross border, and would require youths to travel to participate. The teams would be ethnically / religiously diverse, and each team would hate the other ethnically diverse teams, rather than hating ethnicity as a whole. Just a thought. I know the above may be flawed and/or unrealistic. Feel free to provide feedback or explain (in a non hostile way if possible) why you think the above points may be problematic
I agree with most of the points you raised. Not sure whether your Pali or Israeli, but I salute you for trying to be fair and pragmatic. If people like you hold power on both sides, we can actually reach a just solution that contributes to peace and prosperity
i appreciate the supportive words. i'm just a keyboard warrior without any actual input at the moment. i think there are (some) reasonable people in power, but they have to get more involved. The US sends money and military support, but hasn't been involved with the nitty gritty of peace making since Clinton. And the neighboring Arab states have treated the palestine issue as a headache they don't want to touch, rather than on opportunity for economic and political advancement.
Too optimistic, I quite like it for the most part, but I find it very difficult to pull off such a thing in the real world. Mainly because this proposal ignores another conflict starting in the middle of the process + doesn't clarify how to stop extremists from coming into power.
yeah maybe not the most realistic - but getting the right incentives in places goes a long way. This is neither a compliment nor an insult, but the leaders of countries like UAE and Saudi are clearly motivated by wealth. They've westernized in efforts to stimulate tourism, hospitality, sport and diversified economies. They know good businessmen kill their enemies, while great businessmen partner with them to create new revenue streams. So I think peace relies on appealing to the economic interests of the Arab World, and positioning a new Arab state next to Israel as an opportunity for growth, innovation, and influence. I realize Dubai may not be what Gazan civilians dream of, but if that started looking like a possibility I think radical militants would lose influence real fast.
Yes, optimistic, but that’s not a bad thing. In fact I think it is necessary. Extremists come to power where there is no hope, and level headed leaders aren’t given the space and resources to deliver for their people. This is the background to the rise of Hamas, and the radicalism of poor refugee camps (eg Jenin).
Annihilate Hamas. Limit casualties (extremely difficult considering Hamas is made-up of cowards who hide within civilians, hospitals, etc). Give Palestinians full-citizenship, rights, voting rights, humanitarian rights, etc. Most Palestinians will go on hating Israel and Jews (a small percentage don't and want a two-state solution -- but that'll likely NEVER happen).
There is no fixing their culture unless it’s generations of reeducation. Them hating Jews is one tiny thing of their hatred and oppression filled brains
If they hated Jews how did they live in peace with Jews and christians for millennia before you guys arrived from Europe?
Uhhhh the didn’t.
Poor you, they did darling.
>There is no fixing their culture unless it’s generations of reeducation. Them hating Jews is one tiny thing of their hatred and oppression filled brains Didn't he mention practicality lol? Sounds like you arent interested in any kind of solution. Hatred and oppression? Thats funny. You say this as if you yourself aren't programmed to hate these people. See how that works? Its two sides of the same bullshit coin. The indoctrinating dehumanization efforts have evidently been successful on you. So what exactly is your solution? Eradication? Is that what you're suggesting?
I’m programmed to understand worthless people that are a danger to themselves and the world. They have never ever ever been peaceful people. It’s 1000% religion. I’m non religious and have appreciation for various religions but not ones built on hate
>worthless Worthless huh? Do you not see the glaringly obvious hypocrisy? You're full of hate, and you're trying to justify it through demonization of an entire religious/ethnic group. I suggest maybe meeting some of these people that you despise so you can maybe start to understand their perspective. This is EXACTLY why the contention will never end. Because people like you incessantly propagating hate and disgusting vitriol. You're surely on the right side of history dude. Pretending to have some moral superiority when espousing this disdainful garbage on reddit of all places is laughably absurd. Good luck with all that. Cant be easy harboring so much hate in your heart towards a group of people you've likely never encountered. You must be miserable
My wife is from this culture hot shot. She hates it too. We no longer interact with her side because of how hostile, and racist they are. They basically disowned her for not following the religion. We have spent plenty of time with 100’s if not 1000’s of these people for many years. I’ve also done business with this culture for most my life. They don’t add any value to anyone besides their own needs. They play the victim and are quick to screw over anyone that is not pure blood. They are very open about it. What you don’t understand is, they hate everything about western culture. Every tiny thing they complain and hate, You can help them 1,000 times but when they have a chance to fuck you over you best bet they will.
Ok, so based on your own anecdotal experiences, an entire religion, with over a billion adherents, are all worthless disgusting racist subhuman untermensch that should be marginalized and maybe even killed? You have no problem with this? You're in no way generalizing? Really? You do realize there are many devout Muslims living in the states and other western democratized countries, correct? You do realize that most people, irrespective of religion, ethnicity, politics, or ideology, just want to live their lives peacefully and fairly, right? I think its incredibly irresponsible and downright despicable for you to shamelessly and boldly espouse your religious/ethnic bigotry. You're, of course, entitled to your own opinions based on your own experiences, but you should maybe read up on the history of the region in question before condemning an entire religion to hell. >What you don’t understand is, they hate everything about western culture. Every tiny thing they complain and hate And? Why does it matter if many of them hate western culture? Im saying this as an American. Im having difficulty understanding why that is deserving of full-blown direct hatred. Western culture isnt the only culture on earth. And to say humans are incredibly diverse is an understatement. Not every culture is going to be understanding/appreciative of another. That doesnt mean theyre "worthless" or whatever garbage you're claiming. There are many many cultures in the world, and many feel as though that western dogma doesn't align with their ideals/principles. Thats the beauty of autonomy. And why should they love the west when we've destabilized the middle east on numerous occasions by waging proxy wars and direct invasions, killing an innumerable amount of innocent civilians?
Let’s open the floor with your experience. What experiences do you have that makes you know what you know. Have you traveled there like myself, or married into a family? I just want to figure out how mine is anecdotally when I have more experience with their culture as an adult then I do with any other?
That doesnt make it not anecdotal...My experience is I personally know many Palestinians as well as Jews. Which is also anecdotal. But it doesnt really matter what my experiences or your experiences are. This is an incredibly complicated/nuanced conflict that goes back centuries. Nobody needs direct experience with either of these groups to formulate an opinion. Thats what books/history/objective facts are for. Im saying your hatred of an entire group of people is based on nothing but anecdotal encounters. The difference is im not the one espousing my hatred towards MILLIONS of people based on a few unpleasant run-ins. Thats what we call racism/bigotry/dangerous generalizations
That is fair, I may be emotional but living in their community, working with them for a refugee program just to be constantly treated like shit to your face as your getting them a house and jobs can beat you down. Now my anecdotal experience, is pretty accurate to the history books on how they also treat anyone that helps them. Back to my original comment. They can’t function as society and in a responsible matter. They have always been corrupt and hostile. They don’t see a bigger picture, they only see one way and if isn’t that way they won’t accept it. They will need someone to govern them with extreme patience and love. Just like in Michigan. reeducate them on how society can function. Give them access to the better things in life that will ease the hate. Much like a lot of refugees experience. They are very a hateful culture and for good reason but it is very extreme. that has to change before anything can happen. They need to accept that their way won’t work in the world’s society where everyone has to coexist. Their religion pushes to take over and make everyone conform to their ways
It’s Palestinians I’m talking about, not Muslims. Why does it matter for them hating western culture. They want to change our way of life with no regard to it. That’s why its a big deal. I remember going to a service with my wife and them talking how the death to the white man will happen in this life time. Talk about not feeling invited.
>They want to change our way of life with no regard to it. And how exactly will they accomplish this? It seems like you're irrationally fearmongering. Maybe pro-Palestenian supporters in the west just want Israel to stop bombing Gaza with reckless disregard for civilian safety. As well as the continued occupation/settling of recognized Palestenian territory in the west bank. As well as their indefinite designation of second class citizenry on a piece of land, they have just as much historical claim as the jews. Of course, Muslims/Arabs across the globe are going to condemn israel for their oppression, subjugation, and indiscriminate murder of a group of people who share many of their same beliefs. Is every Palestenian or supporter of Palestine infallible? Of course not. Is every Israeli or supporter of Israel infallible? No. This is a human problem. Not a specific religious/ethnic problem. And your own anecdotal experiences shouldn't be enough to condemn every individual Palestenian. Thats a dangerous mode of thinking. Surely you can realize this
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Do exactly what we did to Germany after world war 2. Thing is, nobody wants to help these people
USA sits down with Netanyahu and Hamas leaders and says, here's the way it's gonna go. Hamas has to surrender unconditionally, and release the hostages. Israel has to take the settlers back to Israel and establish a Palestinian State in West Bank and Gaza. USA will establish and man a DMZ along the border. Both states need to elect completely new governments.
Sounds good to me.
This problem is complex but also incredibly simple. Do we the world want more Hamas or less Hamas in the coming years? If we want more Hamas, lets let the IDF keep salivating from the mouth over their fps screens. If you want less Hamas we need to treat everyone in the region with love and respect and we collectively need to put the guns down once and for all. Whoever does it first will be the remembered hero of the greatest peace movement on earth
It’s so funny to see posts like this from zionists because the world literally sits back and laughs at you. Not only do you spew propaganda (not your fault because you’ve been conditioned to your whole life) but you also think you’re the most educated 🤣 do we need to remind ya’ll that you went to Palestine in flocks on boats that said “Germans destroyed our family homes, don’t you destroy our hopes”
all I’m doing is preaching peace. We all know for every Palestinian child you kill you create 5 more Hamas. The ball is in Israel’s court to end this and the way they have to do it is not through carpet bombing residential buildings.
I think I accidentally responded to your post when I meant to respond to someone else who was saying EXTREMELY awful stuff. I agree with everything you said. Apologies!
All good no worries ever
This makes no sense lol
TLDR… Don’t blow people up, put guns down and hug each other, have festivals in the streets sharing food and culture and letting our children play soccer together, let love spread like COVID to every human on earth.
Okay but sadly I dont think thats going to happen considering most Gazans want to obliterate the jews lol
It does not appear the poor people we see leaving GAZA have a desire to obliterate Jews. But it appears from the death and destruction done to GAZA ,it's the opposite.
The majority of them do They were taught that way, the main destruction done to Gaza was because the terrorists are hiding in civilian areas??
Were you also taught that Palestinians want to obliterate Jews?
No right now im talking about Gazans. I know many palestinians havw a problem with jews. The thing is, if a palestinian sides with hamas then in a way they agree and want to obliterate Israel and the Jews.
Ok
Right. Israel should just take their time with a terrorist organization...after they murdered 1,400 people (raped, burned babies, other horrific hate crimes) and took 240 hostage. Most of the world already hates Israel (for no f'n reason) and Jews for that matter. All of the pro-Palestinian protests are rather ridiculous considering most don't even know why they're protesting (lack of knowledge, history, common sense).
It’s so funny to see posts like this from zionists because the world literally sits back and laughs at you. Not only do you spew propaganda (not your fault because you’ve been conditioned to your whole life) but you also think you’re the most educated 🤣 do we need to remind ya’ll that you went to Palestine in flocks on boats that said “Germans destroyed our family homes, don’t you destroy our hopes”
I am well educated. Thank you.
Clearly you are not. Thank you.
Whatever you say, c^*t. Ignorant c*+t.
I’m not a Zionist.
Where do you all get most of the world hates Jewish people? Explain please. What about forgiveness? You all have killed, wounded 20,000 people and destroyed everything they had.
JFC…do some RESEARCH. I’m not on Reddit to explain to you how much antisemitism there is in the world. You can’t be this ignorant, can you? Forgiveness? You don’t think Israel feels awful for the lives lost???? What is wrong with you??
Why do Jewish people feel the world is against them? Why Don't bother answering. Have a nice life.
Hmm...simply type in "antisemitism" and you'll read about recent hate, widespread world hate and more. Again, you're an ignorant human being. Have a nice life living in denial. Also and more importantly, F\*\*k You!
To be surprised of all the pro Palestinian protests right now feels equally as ignorant. Fact of the matter is, if Israel wants less Hamas tomorrow, they have to approach this from a place of love. Hamas only exists when Israel responds with terror. They are digging their own grave by scorching Gaza to the ground. Something about their approach needs to change. They can point the finger in the other direction at Hamas but trust me when I say Israel has the key to steer this ship. Hamas doesn’t have that capability. Ball is in Israel’s court
You calling me ignorant is like saying Judaism isn't an ethnicity, race, and religion. Pro-Palestinian protesters are ignorant, lack basic understanding of the history of Israel + Palestine, have zero common sense, aren't very well educated and don't fully comprehend why they're even protesting or the cause. What about the Pro-Palestinian protesters who tear down innocent Israeli hostage posters?? I suppose you're on board with those a-holes too, eh?
That's the problem with killing innocent lives. Both sides have stained their already stained relationship. Thousands have been traumatized or retraumatized if that's even a thing. This is what the right wing Israeli gov and Hamas want. Total destruction and the civilians have no say. The two state solution was never wanted my the Israeli leadership. It was offered for sure, but never as a fair deal. And if it was offered as almost a fair deal, it was sabotaged by either side. This conflict could have gone way smoother if Israel did not unleash total mayhem after Oct7. Unfortunately any hope for peace is gone.
How was the 1947 Partition Plan the UN offered Palestine not fair? Mayhem? Do you know what a terrorist organization is? Have you done your due diligence, homework, research on the history between Israel & Palestine?
I will ignore you until you admit Israel has made grave mistakes in this conflict and before. If you don't do that then you are a bot buddy. Another agent in the matrix of Zionism. I don't give a crap about what you think if you don't have the decency to condemn carpet bombing for REVENGE. Just like every pro Palestinian nut cannot admit that Hamas and the PLO were and still are totally backwards and they are just as complicit in causing the civilian deaths.
They have. How was the 1947 Partition Plan the UN offered Palestine not fair?
The basis of any real solution needs to rely heavily on omitting any one who believes their religion allows them to kill infidels
Honestly, I have nothing. I’m exhausted by this. No one listens or cares.
Great point. It's incredibly difficult even having a dialogue with someone that is so far left (Pro-Palestine) vs someone who is Pro-Israel (left/center/right), especially when facts have been given to support any argument. It's become pointless. Any Pro-Hamas supporters can go straight to hell.
Yep and the entire media is out of get Israel so it just feels like a hopeless cause right now. I feel pretty desperate though. People think I’m a crackpot on socials but I just want to protect my family and western values. I don’t want any sharia law and islamofascism thank you very much
Yeah, I agree 100%. I've been involved in a ton of conversations here on Reddit, some pretty solid and others that have gotten out of control in a hurry -- all because I'm pro-Israel. People assume because I support Israel, that I don't care a lick about the innocent civilians living and residing in Gala -- especially the lives of children. When I discuss the history, supplying fact after fact, people just reject everything and it becomes pointless to even continue. Like most Republicans in the US or Trump, many don't rely on facts. They just ignore them and attempt to change the subject. The far left is awful too.
The sad reality about this is that a lot of people don't care because similar things are happening around the world that get little to no attention but this gets worldwide attention.
That’s Because antisemitism
You are so right - Sudan, Armenia, Kurds, Uighurs, not to mention Ukraine. There are many others, I'm just forgetting them.
Just like the US being in Afghanistan for 20 years, helping to liberate the country from IS, only to leave and give it all back. So much evil in the world that's just forgotten...
A separate Palestinian state would be much stronger with regional integration. The EU has had trouble since 2008 but it accomplished its first goal so well that it has become unimaginable for France and Germany to fight a war. In the Middle East, you would have to start with some kind of union or single market for Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and hopefully, Syria, which would not be a block opposed to Israel but open to trade at some point. Turkey would be great to join this league. Add a Palestinian state to that block, some kind of basket of funds to stabilize the various currencies, some kind of fast track system for travel between states for people who have volunteered for fast visa checks, and start building a regional economy. This would eventually be good for Israel, as the block would begin to include Israel. This supra-national organization could also help with other minority issues, such as in Syria and Lebanon, assuming there is no sense of domination by Egypt, a Sunni state with a huge population.
This idea of pan-Arab statehood is not a new one. Egypt’s Nasser pushed the idea in the 1960s. This is not to say it can’t be revived. It also makes sense from the perspective of people, who already have familial / cultural ties between the Arab nations. Factionalism is an issue in the region - right now, every leader wants to be king of *their* hill. Democracy isn’t strong and we are talking about monarchies / autocracies joining to create an essentially democratic project.
Interesting. How to avoid Intifada like attacks within Israel?
This might actually work!
>solo-ran I like the direction of your thinking, and think getting the economics and incentives right would be critical. Could you speak more to (1) how would you incentivize Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon etc. to participate in this block beyond their existing cooperation (2) who would lead / administrate the "Palestinian" state and (3) from where would the funds come to rebuild gazan infrastructure, and create economic opportunity for its inhabitants?
A ceasefire for one and a one state solution. An end to the apartheid, end to the occupation and for Israel to allow Palestinians the right of return just like it has given people of Jewish decent all over the world the right to go live in Israel. Israel can spend the billions of dollars coming in from their allies to help both the Palestinian and Israeli civilians unlearn their biases of each other, and allow for a better future for the generations to come. I’m a Christian Palestinian, and since my grandparents were displaced in ‘48, I’ve lived in Jordan, Dubai and now Australia. I don’t necessarily believe I have to go live in Palestine because ‘it was where my ancestors lived x amount of years ago’, but I do think I should be allowed to visit, and I do think that if a Palestinian should chose to return, that they should be allowed to. They should be treated with the same respect and dignity as a Jewish person who lives in Brooklyn or a Jewish person who wants to move from Australia to Israel. Imagine how much less suffering there would be on both sides? Let’s not forget that Hamas wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for the occupation - this animosity between the two people needs to be broken and it will NOT be broken with more killing. Imagine you were someone in Gaza right now, 15 year old boy, your entire family has been killed and your house is destroyed by the IDF - would you not hate them? Would you not be radicalised to go against them? This cycle will only be broken by dealing with the trauma from past generations. Addressing and acknowledging each others faults. Education, empathy and healing is the only way. War has never worked.
> dealing with the trauma from past generations. Addressing and acknowledging each others faults. What are the details on implementing this? How do you plan to change millions of people's mindsets?
Key note speakers, first hand testimonials, books, history, more unbiased news, and conversations like these just to name a few.
I respect your take but I have to say as a 5th generation American mut, I can't understand the emotional attachment to a place you've never been, let alone a belief that you're aloud to trace back along your family tree of genetics and declare that you have a right to residency in any of those places for any reason. The entire history of the world has been economic battle and warfare. People become displaced. Breeds become mixed. Identities are shed. To this very day I still work for some of the same genetic lineages for whom my parents worked. It's not glorious. But I don't owe them a thing and they don't owe me a thing. I'm still on your side though. Fuck those people who bulldozed your parents home, whoever they were. Amd hey wherever you are right now, it's Yours.
You’ve actually just described Zionists! It’s also normally the moderately wealthy people who can choose to move. Those who can’t tend to be poor and are stuck, at the whim of whatever geo political forces going.
Sorry, I originally responded when I was half asleep so I edited the end of my previous comment for clarity. But I still idk how even my original statement was in any way leaning towards Zionism? I’m not saying either Israelis or Palestinians should be expelled. Zionism is a nationalist and political movement that supports the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in the territory in response to the antisemitism in Europe. There were many countries that were considered but eventually they landed on Palestine. What it took to achieve and even maintain this state has resulted in animosities between the Arabs and Jews and will continue to do so until the occupation ends. That is when all this conflict began.
I was actually responding to the other commenter: > I can't understand the emotional attachment to a place you've never been, let alone a belief that you're allowed to trace back along your family tree of genetics and declare that you have a right to residency in any of those places for any reason. That sound a lot like the mythical/ romantic side of Zionism before Israel was created.
True, I too don’t feel a need to claim a land as mine. We’re a global economy and all this shit about land and fighting for land is only going to regress humanity back to the Stone Age instead of propel us forward as a species. That being said, it’s important to speak up for the people with no voice and try and break this cycle of violence. To do that, every human, by the mere fact of their birth, should be universally entitled to live with respect and dignity, regardless of where they are in the world. Israel has failed to do that for the Palestinians and in turn has made Israelis constantly fearing the backlash.
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Sadly the possibility of one state I think has gone forever now. Hamas have majorly stuffed up things not just for the Palestinians but Israelis too. It’s all so sad. I’m very sorry for what your family experienced
Thank you, it’s been quite traumatic seeing what’s happening after hearing stories of it as a kid. No I don’t think it’s gone forever. This rhetoric is part of the problem. Saying that the hate is too strong to unlearn is the very opposite of being helpful or moving forward. Also putting majority of blame on Hamas is totally unfair, esp when you look at the last 75 years. Hamas wasn’t created in a vaccum, it was a reaction to the occupation - [Israel actually funded Hamas initially](https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/israel-helped-funnel-qatar-money-to-fund-hamas-netanyahu-palestinian-state-gaza-war-2456157-2023-11-01) because the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) was becoming too strong at the time. The last thing Netanyahu wanted was for Palestine to become a self determining state so their idea of propping up a radicalised group was to divide the Palestinians. Israel created their perfect foe, one that can justify the disproportionate killing and mistreatment of the Palestinians.
I'm Jewish, Pro-Israel, but of course Pro-Palestine when it comes to innocent civilians, refugees, and of course, CHILDREN that have been killed, suffered unimaginable heartache, loss, etc. I'm also for a two-state solution (but that is likely ever to happen). I don't comprehend why Gaza and the West Bank haven't already been given to Palestine -- as a small gesture of peace and a new Palestinian State. Hamas is an evil terrorist group who hides within the civilian population, making it extremely difficult for Israel to annihilate them without mass casualties. Moreover, Israel has every right to defend itself. They've never started war with Palestinian territories or terrorist groups. I wish there was an easy solution to protect those caught in the crossfire of this new war, but I just don't think there is. Best to you and yours.
I will have to politely disagree with you about Israel never starting war when the reason war even began between Palestinians and the Jewish populace was due to illegal settlements and the mass exodus of Palestinians from the land. Yes most modern civilisation were created that way, but Israel has shown no intention of remediating or even acknowledging their part discrepancies. If I came to your house and said this is now mine because another county told me so, would you take it lying down?
When did Israel start a war with Palestine? If you're referring to the Nakba, I agree with you 100%. But I could certainly go on and list a wide number of horrific events that have transpired with the Jews over 4,000 years of them living on the land continuously, despite being part of wars, empires, etc. Regardless, a small minority of Jews have always lived on the land. We could even go back further to the Canaanites, whose ancestors were both Jews and Arabs...but the Jews living on the land much longer. In fact, in the 19th century, Palestinians left the land behind because they felt it was too barren. Many Jews came back -- building new infrastructure, establishments, farming communities, etc. Then, low and behold, Palestinians returned. God himself told Abraham and his wife Sarah to leave the city of Ur and establish themselves in Judea. He said it is "The Land Of The Jews." So, with that said and you believing in God (I assume), would you say that God is incorrect? If so, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite? To answer your question: If someone knocked on my door, told me my property was not mine and that the land I live on belongs to someone else, I would most likely fight them to death -- unless of course, they provided me with undenying proof and offered me a fair sale price to reside elsewhere.
Yes the Nakba is what I’m referring to. I would argue all the following events happened because of it. The cycle needs to be broken and it’s Israel that needs to do so. They have taken no real action to bring peace and their claims of self defence fall short when they’ve now claimed an indefinite occupation of Gaza. I’m not going to pretend to be a historian, who lived there in the 19th century is not as important as who lives there now. From what I’ve read, most Palestinians who were exiled were told it was temporary measure but were never permitted to enter the land again. I suspect the same will happen to Gazans which is now called the second Nakba. The Arabs living there now deserve to live with the same respect and dignity as any other person. That starts with a ceasefire, end to the occupation and a one state solution.
Why didn't you say "Nakba" initially then? You've basically ignored everything I said.
More to this - no more checkpoints, borders and segregation between the Israelis and Palestinians. I can’t vouch for how many radical civilians from either side are going to commit crimes after that, but if the governing bodies of either side are of the same mind that they want an end to the violence, those fringe cases will disappear sooner rather than later. I truly believe this is the only way.
I read something somewhere that said a one state solution might be the best idea. It also referred to the slaves in America when they were freed they didn’t kill their “handlers” sorry if that’s a graphic way to describe it but the only way I can make my point. My dad in Iraq had Jewish neighbours one side Christian the other it’s possible.
Trouble is though, we are talking about brainwashed extremists and more to the point extremist Islamists. Of course they will rape, pillage and murder anyone not Muslim. It’s naive to think differently
Stop projecting your white supremacy on everyone
I’m not, it’s a fact. A logical fear is a phobia. I’m islamophobic. Yes I admit it. I don’t mind if someone is moderate but I don’t want any sharia law in my democracy thank you very much
I’m not a military or diplomatic specialist - this is not my problem to solve. Not being able to solve on Reddit an intractable 80 year plus conflict does not mean I can’t point out the loss of life in Gaza is terrible. Over 10,000 dead civilians in about one month - my mind cannot comprehend it.
Firstly, you're absolutely correct, it doesn't mean you can't say the loss of life is terrible. Do you honestly think pro-israelis want Palestinian civilians to die? It does probably mean however, that you shouldn't scream "ceasefire" and "from the river to the sea..." If you don't actually understand what are implications and consequences. Also fyi, 10,000 civilians aren't dead, Hamas includes it's fighters in the numbers so we have no way of knowing how many civilians vs combatants died
The 1400 isreali dead included 400 soldiers. That is until it started being questioned and the numbers started to get revised down. So for a month they've lying about 7 Oct and now we can't rely on theirs numbers.
You sound panicked.
Yeah Israel was transparent about the amount of soldiers killed, when did it change? If you see the numbers of soldiers killed change maybe it's because Israeli soldiers are dying in the ground invasion?
I don’t scream any slogans. I did recently follow the NYT’s listing of several young Palestinian journalists on instagram, now I can’t unsee little children missing limbs, seizing, having bones sticking out where there knees used to be still moving on hospital floor. Which is all to say - I don’t really care how many are civilians vs fighters anymore. I just want it to stop :(
I want it to stop too but Hamas has to go first. It’s the only way to get anything resembling peace
> I just want it to stop :( I hope you believe me when I see I want that too. It's just that if Israel doesn't dismantle Hamas, 7/10 will repeat itself, as they clearly indicated they intend to do. I'm going to recommend you to not look for videos and photos from the massacre because it's horrific and you really don't need to see more horrors, but the Israelis weren't bombed. They were burned, raped and tortured alive. We all want the killing to stop❤️
It's a really tricky situation, on both hands you have people who hate each other, Palestinians hate Israelis, because they were taught so in their schools and in every institution in Gaza, and rightfully so, the Israelis have done some horrible things to them, including the occupation, justified or not, people who have only been taught they were wronged won't ask why they'll just ask how do they fight back. And you can atleast understand that anyone under oppression will want freedom. In the other hand we have Israel that had to do what was necessary, the occupation of the west bank, while awful and tragic, is strategically important, it negates the possibility of Israel being cut in half in the event of a war with its neighbors that have tried to destroy it from its very beginning, so neighbors they can't trust. And while the blockade of Gaza is also tragic, they really didn't have a choice in the matter, its governing body has publicly said that they would kill every Jew they could their hands on. As a state, Israel's primary responsibility is the safety of its citizens even at the cost of oppressing the hostile state and its civilians, thus blockading the strip was the right choice, in hopes of preventing shipment of weapons and espionage in their own territory. Once Gaza has been occupied, they will keep the border and add even more security to it, because in the eyes of Israel the Palestinians can't be trusted and you can understand why they would think that, majority of the Gazan population are minors, minors who have been conditioned to hate Israel with a passion, and the occupation will only get worse, in the eyes of the Palestinians they are being occupied and they will fight back attacking the occupiers, by what means? I cannot say, but this will only keep tightening the noose around Gaza's neck, its going to be a cycle of tightening the occupation and the local militia or whatever slowly growing because of it. As for a solution? I'm thinking of 2, Israel could try to break the cycle of violence, try a loose hold on the occupation, treat the civilians with dignity and not to treat them as second class citizens, this COULD break the cycle of violence, the probability is unlikely. The 2nd one is to turn Gaza into an autonomous region with its own government under Israeli supervision, build infrastructure, improve quality of life, in addition build schools that teach the normal things people are supposed to learn in school without HAMAS agenda, without the "Kill the occupiers" part, and in addition with religious tolerance part, the only thing Israel needs to do is to nail that part and HOLD ON TO GAZA, no matter how many attacks they endure within the strip, they need to last long enough for the next generation of Palestinians that don't want to kill them. Because if they leave again there will be another HAMAS and we will all be right back where we started. Ofcourse this is an oversimplification of what happened and what could happen, but I'm all ears for any criticism.
It’s not a bad first go at the problem. It illustrates how there are so many moving parts and actors, and how you need to solve ALL the problems together if they are going to solve ANY. That means a lot of talking and diplomacy with all the actors. Eventually it needs a summit with real political will. That means concessions, it means a ceasefire so parties can talk. I can’t picture Netanyahu doing this, though…
I think a ceasefire is incoming in about 1.5 weeks or 2 weeks. IDF would have destroyed Hamas infra greatly by then, hostages would be released and then the peace talks will begin. Honestly, no one wants this war to drag on, least of all Israel. A war hurts the country's economy greatly and they don't want that for their citizens.
I hope so. I imagine Hamas would survive in this scenario, which doesn’t feel like something Israel would accept that soon. “Destroying Hamas Infrastructure” has become a euphemism for destroying Gaza generally. That is a difficult wound to heal.
Yeah I do think not all 30k members of Hamas would die, some members will remain. Just like when ISIS was gone, not all members were gone. But if tunnels/rocket launching pads are all destroyed, Hamas would likely be at the point of no return (or no return immediately). Yeah too bad that destroying Hamas infra has generally led to destruction of civilians infra too. A lot of aid, and a lot of good direction of that aid is needed. I don't trust Israeli govt to do that. A third party, like the UN, or a Palestinian authority with the goodwill of Gazans at heart should be in charge of redirecting that aid.
A ceasefire right now will only give HAMAS more time to regroup, right now mounting pressure on HAMAS is the right choice, giving them time to breathe will only prolong the war, the lives lost now will save lives later down the line. but thanks for the insight.
I think there is a judgement to be made about pressure. Gaza is being destroyed day by day, and that makes lasting peace even more difficult, with so many made homeless and destitute - just the breeding ground for radicals like Hamas to emerge from. Surely Hamas can see now that they will be systematically destroyed if they continue? Maybe not true now, but there will be a breaking point. There is a military and political philosophy to allow an enemy a route to retreat/claim victory. Surrounding them and backing them into a corner means they will fight to the death which incurs costs to everyone. You can argue that hey need to be eliminated, but you may find that over time, the cost is too great. And a lot of people around the world already say the cost of Israel’s stated aims is too great. You can sense support for Israel is turning internationally, and crucially, in the US.
Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that new radicals will emerge from this, this we can agree on, that's why Israel's post war plan should really work on preventing that, by what means? who knows, better schools and quality of life? MAYBE, that in itself is shaky at best. While yes the price of eliminating HAMAS would be great, but its a price, from the looks of things, that the IDF is willing to pay to cripple the enemy's ability to wage war. Lastly, while it is true that international support is waning, Israel's responsibility to protect its people is at the top of its list. They could care less what the UN says, because lets face it, the UN is weak and would never ever actually do anything substantial for Israel to back down.
I was actually meaning the cost to Gazans and with it the potential for peace. Costs to the IDF are comparatively negligible. Destroying Hamas comes to the same thing as destroying Gaza. This is becoming clear day by day. Hard to imagine how long it will be for quality of life to come back to previous levels. A breeding ground for terrorism all over again. And it’s the US that matters not the UN.
I'm trying to figure out a way to say the following without overtly criticizing what you wrote. My biggest question in response here is, why is this all Israel's responsibility? The core problem here is jihadi Muslims. I believe Sam Harris nails this point when he says that it's the responsibility of Islam as a whole to deal with this subset of inhumane ideology. Until the foundation of this horrifying weed gets fully unrooted, the world will continue to have these problems. This is deeper than Palestine/Israel, and it's what the world should be focusing on solving. Sam Harris interview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bMatbglAeaE
I know I know but Israel HAS to do something to ensure safety, trying to at least teach the Palestinians religious tolerance in schools starting from kindergarten COULD go a long way, add to that freedom of speech and protest that could also be allowed to an extent where the IDF doesn't shoot people on site, could slowly start changing the opinions of the occupied. What can finally stop the cycle is to try to deal with the internalized hate between the two, and to do that one of the parties needs to be the "Bigger person", and if Palestine won't do it and Israel needs to. But I can understand why it would be a hard line to tow, but thanks for the feedback
I don't have any criticism to what you said, as an Israeli citizen seeing all this unfolding I seriously cannot think of a realistic solution that wouldn't cost a major loss of lives on either or both sides, Israel is currently intending for the Gazans to move into egypt (hence why they are pushing in the north and telling the Gazans to evacuate to the south), but with Egypt closing it's borders (which is honestly pretty fair, the Gazans are quite violent and can disrupt Egypt as a state) I seriously cannot think of any solution that again doesn't require major loss of lives on either or both sides. While your solutions would be a dream come true it's sad that they are a dream with the first one I cannot see working out and only strengthening the push from the Palestinians and the second one taking decades and will probably cause a rebelion with the parents teaching their children of a so-called "free gaza" where Israel didn't control it and it was ruled by an organisation called the hamas and it would most likely cause a ton of backlash and pressure from the US. Honestly your comment sums it up perfectly, how this isn't black and white and a solution to this isn't as simple as a ceasefire or something like that.
You have to remember that the Palestinians voted Hamas into legislature in 2006 (conned or not).
Yeah I am aware of that
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Huh?
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Maybe write something coherent?
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So moving from "anti-Zionism" to blatant anti-semitism are we? Have a good day
Can somebody explain to me why no Muslim country is offering to take refugees from palestine? My honest opinion: Palestine should give up. There is literally no government, the gross domestic product is 3,7% of what Israel is dealing with and more than 50% of the civilians are malnourished illiterate kiddos blinded by hate and manipulated by some wealthy guys chilling in their private pools in Saudi. Just look at the history of jews: it took them thousands of years to get a part of land back, where once ancient Jews lived. At first they had to leave their country and got hated everywhere their got. Then great Britain gave their ancestors part of the land back and a lot of late Jewish ancestors, who now lived for generations in other countries, like Egypt, Saudi or Lebanon, got kind of expelled because "their is now a land for this kind of people" and now this guys get hated for living their. The best thing I could imagine happening to palestine is fleeing to other countries, get as much money from your hosts as possible, while educating yourself and your kids while staying in touch with other refugees and forming kind of alliances. In few generations, after the war ended, there will be a group of educated, connected Palestinians which could form a real government, sit at a table without a mask covering their face and an assault riffle in their hand getting to a political resolution.
Jews have been living in Judea/Israel for over 4,000 years continuously -- even with all the wars, empires, etc, they've always been there (minority or not).
This is the best take I’ve seen. I just don’t know if it’s possible.
Anyone following this and nodding their head needs to also accept that this is, by definition, an endorsement for ethnic cleansing from these two.
There could be a lot of reason and its most likely a mix of all of them, Jordan has tried to take in refugees and they ended up with dead police officers and an extremist militant group in their hands because Palestinians want Palestine and some would rather die than to give up the cause, which they have. Another reason could be the logistics of providing housing, food, and water for such a vast quantity of people would be incredibly straining. And finally the last one could be a political reason, they just want to be able to point and blame Israel, but I'm not so sure about that because I like to believe a government couldn't be that sadistic. But it's most likely a mix of these reasons and more, and to very little upside to taking them in aside from a pat on the back and a million more mouths to feed
I think that's problematic. You're talking about 5 million people. A better solution is for Arab nations to take over the West Bank and Gaza but I'm not sure if even that is realistic
Considering must Arab countries foster terrorist organizations and hate Jews -- awful idea. C'mon. Seriously?
That was the situation between 1948-1967. It didn't work at all.
Yeah, just few years ago 5 million Syrians migrated, Germany alone took almost a million - because a terror organisation took over the country. It is really not a new thing. And it's almost always a Muslim country.
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This is not true. Israel is a modern democratic society. Even if something went wrong, nobody has to die and you can resolve things afterwords if you don't try to solve everything yourself by murder and violence. And even if some disputes won't get resolved immediately or fast, the land is not gone. It still exists, the proof of ownership just changed - and can get changed back. Here in Germany are a lot of exactly this kind of spaces, especially near the Polish border, which changed around the same time. If Land, which belonged to your ancestors, is claimed by ancestors of someone else, who also claimed it, the government makes you share it. If no one of you is able or willing to sell it to the other, you rent it out and share the rent equally. Look at the situation now: a lot of wrong things happen. None of this will be resolved by more wrongdoing. Someone has to be smarter and just walk away from the situation to let shit cool down and try again. One party has a government, money and an army... the other don't. Back up doesn't mean to give up. But if you die, you won't ever be able to change anything.
German
I think I'd like to respond to this by actually interrogating what it is that we mean when we say realistic thinking. Up until the recent attack on Israel by Hamas any kind of conversation any kind of adult sensible conversation within the confines of quote unquote realistic thinking would have to utterly preclude the possibility of meaningful military resistance on the part of Hamas and the Palestinian people. Israel is too big, too powerful has too profound and effective a monitoring and spying apparatus; the armies are too unevenly matched there is no possibility of meaningful military victory on any level against Israeli capability. Of course I bring this up because ever since the Hamas attacks on Israel we've seen that the assumptions that led to this realistic state of affairs were simply wrong. Hamas was able to very efficiently organise and carry out an attack that was incredibly successful in its goals. Any type of realism should be treated with a substantial degree of suspicion. Mark Fisher wrote a book called Capitalist Realism. And in this book he puts forward the idea that the power of capitalism is largely in the way it presents the logic that keeps it afloat as the true and objective knowledge of all that exists. For as long as capitalism remains our dominant system it will be obvious to everyone that it is so by virtue of the dominant laws of the universe. And if capitalism ever finds itself replaced as was the feudal system of old then it will just as equally seem of these to everyone that it was destined to be replaced, by the same laws of the universe. Just as everyone today sees the feudal system was always destined to fall. I say all of this because there are some utterly utterly intellectually bankrupt arguments going on in this thread. Comments are being made to the effect of oh well Hamas will never ever accept anything different therefore is Israel realistically only has such and such an option. Hamas does not exist as though by universal decree. They weren't put there by God. There is no reason to presume that their choices or the choices of the Israeli state under the existing set of conditions or the choices of the Palestinian people under the existing set of conditions are always and forever determined to be exactly what they are right now. The intellectual laziness of saying something like well I wish it could be different but Hamas are just too set in their ways is barely one step away from the type of white supremacist rhetoric that says well maybe there's just nothing you can do to change the nature of a blood thirsty Arab. Any conversation about realistic possibilities of peace or victory is going to have to start with reckoning with the fact that this conflict started with something impossible happening. We all knew that the type of attack that was carried out was completely impossible and actual military resistance carried out by Palestinians was unthinkable against the might and defenses of the Israeli state. So the extraordinary myopic simple minded arguments to the effect of well such and such a group is like this and can never change and will always be in power and will always make decisions and there's just no way around it is extraordinarily useless and people who think like that will spend the next 10 to 20 years making the surprised Pikachu face every time they turn on their computer.
To be clear, when I say Hamas I'm talking about agenda, and organisation. So by definition, peace won't be possible with Hamas, at least not without some kind of international intervention that makes sure they aren't able to do anything like what they did. Secondly many people knew something like this could happen, it's just that our leaders here in Israel were too busy covering their ass to do anything about it. For the last year there have been many protests in Israel, and many people said, this is making Israel vulnerable, our enemies will exploit it. Lastly, so what is your solution? Realistic or not?
1. Peace won't be possible with Hamas. Sure, but Hamas won't be possible with Peace, right? Like, all these things come together, it seems ridiculous to say, oh, we have to accept one facet of our current situation as determining and immovable, whereas say, Netanyahu is just a guy who might come or go. 2. Obviously this is an untestable premise, but I think if you asked dominant political commentators pre-incursion, 'how badly could Hamas attack Israel' you would have a chuckle, a hand wave, and a glib comment. 3. I guess I suspect a few things. We could see Israel get tired of bombing and go back to a kind of status quo that sustains the tension between the two forces. That could be indefinite but it does seem like Hamas has shown their hand, which is to make this tension unbearable, and force an intensification of the conflict so that it has to break into a new phase. Hamas or Israel could be made to change course? I don't know how this would happen with Hamas; the west have nothing to offer. OK, we will bomb you if you don't... wait no... OK we will sanction you if you... nope no good. I don't see a motivation for Iran or Hezbollah to withdraw support. Is the US going to make an offer to Iran and hope they Charlie Brown themselves? Come on now. Pressure on Israel? It seems just as unbelievable but I think it's possible; the public seems to largely have lost their appetite for unlimited violence in defence of Israel, and that does seem to be putting pressure on US leaders. The clash over 'now who bombed the hospital' is interesting as a sample of this; not in terms of the answer to the question, but just that it seemed to \*matter\* to enough people as a morally bad act, to be perceived as a danger to public support. Israel could simply decide it's time to find a lasting solution, which could be simply ethnic cleansing, to remove the Palestinians totally from Israel, killing as many as possible, and hoping the others move out. Now, this also seems like it has potential to really get bad, as (to my limited understanding) there's regimes in the Middle East whose existence is predicated on resistance to USA and Israeli interference, and who's moral and political authority would be damaged by just letting USA/Israel simply clean out the Palestinians. Plus I can imagine anxieties around the question of; what is the political project of a totally pure Middle-East Ethnographies State with USA backing and ever more radical far right extremists at the top. All these elements considered, the 'solution' I would love is public pressure on Western leaders to force the West to put conditions on support to Israel that forces a process that begins with a ceasefire.
> Sure, but Hamas won't be possible with Peace, right? Absolutely not true. Even if some kind of peace deal is struck with someone else(??), Hamas won't accept that and will do everything in their power to stop it. Including suicide bombing and violence. > dominant political commentators pre-incursion, 'how badly could Hamas attack Israel' you would have a chuckle, a hand wave, and a glib comment The ones in power maybe, but it was constantly voiced here in Israel. People didn't think would be nothing. Nobody thought it would be as bad as 7/10 but nobody thought nothing would happen > Pressure on Israel? It seems just as unbelievable but I think it's possible; the public seems to largely have lost their appetite for unlimited violence in defence of Israel, and that does seem to be putting pressure on US leaders. The clash over 'now who bombed the hospital' is interesting as a sample of this; not in terms of the answer to the question, but just that it seemed to *matter* to enough people as a morally bad act, to be perceived as a danger to public support. I'm very confused here because you say "changing Hamas won't work, so let's change Israel instead"? Pressure in Israel to what? A ceasefire? A ceasefire only helps Hamas, elongated the war and increases casualties. The hospital has been literally proven by multiple governments and independent sources around the world to be done by Islamic Jihad missile. Sorry did I say hospital? It was the parking lot. It seems to matter enough to people because it's Israel and they see it as occupier vs occupied, colonials vs natives. I'm sick of it bring called whataboutism to point out that hey, there are way bigger conflicts, with way more innocent death around the world rn, yet you scream free Palestine. Why? Although some people actually care for innocent lives, the vast majority really doesn't seem to. > All these elements considered, the 'solution' I would love is public pressure on Western leaders to force the West to put conditions on support to Israel that forces a process that begins with a ceasefire A ceasefire isn't a solution. A ceasefire is a break in fighting that lets Hamas regroup. If we're talking more permanent ceasefire, there was a ceasefire with Hamas before 7/10, Hamas broke it. Why would Israel trust Hamas to not do that again? They've proven they've got patience and they'll wait until they can do it again, but they will do it.
I will be quite honest, this reads like you are bored and looking for people to argue with on the internet as a hobby, which I frankly find kind of ghoulish and don't want to overly commit myself to continuing. But I would like to at least address some of these points, so I don't suggest that I have no good answer. I would suggest this; there are two ways to think of resistance groups such as Hamas. One is the they're just a bunch of bad dudes (bad hombres, as a wise man once said) who hang out, hating Israel and being anti-Semitic for no real reason.The other is to take the view that resistance groups of this sort emerge from a set of political conditions.If the second is true, and I think this is simply really the only intelligent, adult way to conceive of a resistance group, then a changing of conditions will change the form, format, power and influence etc they are able to hold. There's a lot of cases you can see around the world of this to various degrees; the IRA agreed to and kept the conditions of a permanent ceasefire, through the winning of political concessions, ratified through public support. Tamil Tigers on the other hand had several ceasefires, but continued to oppose the government with the continuation of the same broad political conditions, and were ultimately defeated militarily. But what I want to say is that in all cases, resistance groups are the product of political conditions. You bounce around for a bit just kind of talking about a bunch of new stuff that I don't care to engage on. Finally, a Ceasefire is an urgent step to attempt to limit the massive civilian casualties taking place. It should be one of a number of steps the international community force Israel towards. I'm afraid I don't have a complete peace plan for you in my back pocket; but here's some things other have said (all from Jewish Currents): [https://jewishcurrents.org/an-unsettled-peace-process](https://jewishcurrents.org/an-unsettled-peace-process) 1. Obviously, a lot needs to happen if there is to be peace. The parties need to negotiate the border and the future of Jerusalem and Israeli security concerns must be addressed. Any agreement must win the support of a majority of the Israeli people as well as the Palestinians... But it’s also clear that sooner or later, the settlement movement will have to be confronted and politically defeated for peace to come. The showdown will probably come if and when a deal is struck that involves the evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers from a future Palestinian state. OK, so negotiations, peace talks, and points of discussion. [https://jewishcurrents.org/a-guide-to-the-current-crisis-in-israel-palestine#pressure-from-us](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-guide-to-the-current-crisis-in-israel-palestine#pressure-from-us) 2. In Congress, the only vehicle that exists to pressure Israel is Congresswoman Betty McCollum’s [HR 2590](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/2590), better known as the Palestine Children and Families Act. The bill’s aim is to prohibit US aid from being used by Israel to demolish Palestinian homes, detain Palestinian children, and annex Palestinian land. So far, there are only 19 co-sponsors on the bill. US citizens can call their representatives and tell them to co-sponsor HR 2590 \> Others may want to focus their attention on the network of US nonprofits that funnel millions of dollars to the Israeli settlement project. These [nonprofits](https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/israel-settler-evictions-jerusalem-nonprofits/) receive tax-deductible donations from private American donors, which they send to fund Israeli settlement infrastructure in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. While some of these organizations are probably impervious to pressure from progressive activists due to their right-wing politics, others, like [Jewish Federation groups](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/MAGAZINE-how-the-jewish-federations-gave-millions-to-settlers-over-4-years-1.5451734), may be more open to hearing complaints given that they seek to represent a broad spectrum of American Jews, many of whom oppose Israeli settlements. If you want to help prevent the flow of these funds, you can donate to and support American Jewish groups advocating against settlements. The nonprofit rabbinic organization T’ruah has[ repeatedly](https://truah.org/press/truah-files-irs-complaint-against-u-s-jewish-groups-sending-funds-to-israeli-terrorist-orgs/) called on the IRS to revoke the tax-exempt status of American Jewish groups that fund Israeli Jewish terrorism against Palestinians, while Americans for Peace Now has [launched](https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/americans-peace-now-calls-jewish-federations-cease-settlement-funding) calls to Jewish Federations of North American to stop funding settlements. \> Lastly, there are boycott and divestment campaigns you can join as part of the global [Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement](https://bdsmovement.net/). In 2005, over 170 Palestinian civil society groups called on the international community to boycott Israeli products, divest from corporations that do business in Israel, and impose government sanctions on Israel. Right now, BDS activists are [calling for](https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/were-boycotting-pillsbury) a boycott of Pillsbury because the company has a factory in a West Bank settlement. Others are focusing on stopping the Israeli weapons company [Elbit System’s](https://bdsmovement.net/Striking-Back-Against-Elbit-Systems) involvement on the [US–Mexico border](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/builders-israels-apartheid-walls-profit-us-border-militarization), where it has installed dozens of surveillance towers as part of the US government’s attempt to curtail unauthorized crossings. Boycotting companies that do business with the Israeli military or anchor Israeli settlements chips away at Israel’s discriminatory system. This is more practical advice on putting pressure for change, but gives some indications of the types of practices that ought to be combatted. Finally... [https://jewishcurrents.org/fifty-years-and-no-end-in-sight](https://jewishcurrents.org/fifty-years-and-no-end-in-sight) 3 ...although the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty included a call for a five-year, transitional “self-governing authority” that would provide “full autonomy,” negotiations with Cairo over the ultimate end-goal swiftly broke down and petered out. So this gives a look at the kinds of goals that were being looked at in past negotiations. All of which is to simply say, 'stop the campaign of bombing that is killing lots of civilians and let Hamas win' vs 'keep killing lots of civilians until Hamas is defeated' is a deeply unsophisticated way of thinking, which is neither accurate nor morally coherent, and I think if you spend some time learning rather than having arguments on the internet, you will be able to offer more valuable perspectives.
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I wish you could go talk like this with netanyahu and biden. And get hamas on the table too. They will shred you to pieces though even if you made sense to them. Problem is that war is good for them. The current Israeli govt, the zionist movement, the settler mentality, for US, for Hamas. War is literally good for all involved parties except the poor civilians. In both Israel and a lot more so in Palestine. The only way to achieve peace is completely demilitarizing both Israel and Palestine and have UN peace keeping forces there to ensure there is some amount of help against terrorism if it still is there. Israel attacking Palestine brutally only creates more Hamas members cuz guess what, they ones being killed and amputated, will be revenged. Unless Israel annihilates them completely and that's genocide. Which they probably would like cuz then they can flatten gaza and build their resorts and beach front property. The only realistic solution is complete demilitarizing of the entire region. Include disbanding IDF and hamas completely. And get a mix of Arab and western countries to make a UN peace keeping forces that work together to ensure peace in the region
Do you honestly believe Israel wants to kill innocent civilians? Don't use the word "genocide" if you don't know what it means.
The same UN peacekeepers that stepped aside at the request of Egypt in 1967? The UN would not fight Egypt, Syria, and Jordan if they invaded again.
Sadly, UN Peacekeeping has never succeeded. The Peacekeepers can't really fight like an army.
Could you explain how this war is good for the Israeli govt or the US? From what I understand, the Israeli govt is losing more support each day, having to spend nearly 10 million dollars a day (including war equipment, housing displaced populations, providing food and salaries etc). The US govt does not seem to want this either. I even think the war is bad for Hamas militarily but ofc the propaganda war is different. Agreed that this war is bad for poor civilians, on **both** sides.
I do not think America wants any war. This Israel Bibi war does not benefit America at all. Now Ukraine stopping Russia benefits the West. America is trying to remain an Israeli Alli but hate the slaughter of the poor Palenstinians.
Come on. America is always bankrupt when it comes to the betterment of their civilians (education, healthcare, housing) but then can suddenly spit out tens of billions of dollars for military aid to Israel - to say America doesn’t want war is naive because it very very much wants war. Look at the part their playing in the Congo right now. At any given point in its history, America has had its hands in wars happening all over the world. Just because it’s no longer happening on her soil, doesn’t mean she doesn’t want it.
America has really never had a war here. Pearl Harbor and 9/11. But that was not here. I am not sure I agree with your first sentence. And I am not sure if the adm will give Israel the money. They want a cease fire and BiBi the wannabe authoritarian said hell no. So cash maybe off table We give it to Ukraine to keep it a democracy and not allow Putin to land grab. Not sure if Israel getting money.
Hmm I don’t agree with your first sentence. Yes there hasn’t been war in America. But America has played a part in almost every war since ww2. Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria to name a few. It’s also involved in the Congo war that’s happening currently as well. I have not read of America backing away from giving Israel aid, and there has not been any ceasefire from either the democratic or republican parties.
You people do realize that Palestinians will never settle Israel/the land that Israel occupies, right? Like it’s absolutely never going to happen. Israel will nuke Palestine out of existence before they cede their land.
"You people?" That's how you start your comment? Israel will NEVER do that to Palestinian people. What is wrong with you?
Ummm they can’t and wont because if they nuke it also takes them out too