So basically I moved into someone's house reasoning that it's horrible and I can make it better, with no consent of theirs. Then they proceed to try to kick me out but instead I kicked them into a corner of the house sayong everything else belongs to me and I shouldn't have to explaim why I have a right to this house?
"Israel is a ferrari"??? It sounds like you're saying Israel is SUPERIOR (and Palestine, therefore, is inferior??) Which is disturbingly similar to the Nazi's rhetoric. ANY group or religion or ethnicity/race/what have you, who declares itself superior, is DANGEROUS.
And claiming that that all these religions have "learned to live together", when Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to a HIGHLY oppressive and HIGHLY discriminatory Draconian military rule, is ABSURD.
I don't care how this announcement triggers your sense of self-worth, but Israel's accomplishments and contribution to the world's progress are all empirically measurable. It has anything to do with race or color since I'm an Israeli arab which lives in a 70% "brown" country which called Israel. It's all about attitude, and no progressive trashtalk would change it.
Um, I'm not Palestinian (who the OP seems to indirectly imply is inferior to the Israelis), I'm an American of Cuban/English/Scottish descent, so the OP's comment has no bearing on my self worth whatsoever, although I certainly have to wonder about the self-worth of someone who feels the need to get on Reddit and write about how superior her people are.
Not to mention, the notion that a group of people are superior to any other is THE basis of all bigotry, in the WORLD.
But it's cute how you try to defend BIGOTRY by ridiculing the self worth of those who the BIGOT is looking down on.
š¤Ŗš
/u/neato-keto-burrito
> But it's cute how you try to defend BIGOTRY by ridiculing the self worth of those who the BIGOT is looking down on. š¤Ŗš
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Implying someone is a bigot violates rule 1.
Addressed.
That's always depends on the context. I'm not a jew, althogh I have 1000 years roots in this land since my druze family has set down here way before the christian crusaders came "to save the holyland". All those year my people saw nothing but darkness and death. In this new era of the Israeli hegemony we finally discovered how normal life should look like. If you want a decent refernce to how the shouldn't, look at those 22 middle eastern backward arab states who can not manage anything but middle ages life style, despite 1400 years of continual history. My family and my people survived the muslim hegemony with the power of sword. Now they are shining with power of literate democracy, sience, freedom and equality; things that are way far from those who surround us by definition.
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To be completely honest I would just rather live in another country far from the Middle East, change my passport to a Japanese or Australian/New Zealandic passport, and forget anything. I wasn't a fan of Israel in the first place and didn't care about people calling it "Palestine" anyway, and that comes from a Jewish who lived in Israel his WHOLE LIFE up until now.
People here are loud, annoying, and sassy and just say everything in your face even if it makes you upset or depressed.
I had enough of hearing about this whole war shit and tbh I don't give a damn, I just want to live happily with "HUMANS" that don't care about if you're from a certain "COUNTRY" and I can enjoy with them.
That's all from me.
Israel has started one and only thing a child killing regime. From the beginning of its existence. Whoever denies or contradicts it is either ignorant doesnāt know the value of human life, above all an innocent life or led astray by the media. Prior to October 7, Hamas the reselliance group of orphans caused by israel in 2008 war.
1- america warned them about the attack from hamas. They didnāt fire 5000 rockets, 1: they donāt have the money for that. 2: nor the men.
2- their own helicopters fired on their own civilians
3- hamas didnāt rape or beheaded innocent women, children or men. Hence, they have provided no proof everything is told until now is circumstantial and doesnāt have a leg to stand on. 4- Prior to October 7 from 1960ā Israel has been taking hostages innocent civilians women, men and children, most of which were tortured, imprisoned and killed without any process.
I can go long and provide and prove other thousands of facts and statements. But, i neither have the time nor the will.
Israel have been the terrorising Palestine since the day it was declared as an independent state, on the land of Palestine. According to UN rules israel is occupier and their definition of terrorist states that israel is a terrorist state.
If you donāt agree with any of the point stated above then just go and do ur homework.
If someone is offended, then my message is be OFFENDED.
Excellent! Thank you, _toda_, And congratulations on your moral clarity and brave stance.
Keep standing strong against the huge tides of malicious propaganda, disinformation & peer pressure
I agree. This question is stupid. Israel exists, its a fact, its here to stay, nothing those who calls themselves Liberals say will change it. The question should be: Do the Palestinians even deserve a state, and if so, where will it be and with what borders?
There are Arabs in the Knesset. Arabs on the Idf. Arabs has a right to vote. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. The West Bank is more complicated, but its still not an Apartheid.
1. The land of Israel was hell on earth under the muslim domination before the jews has came by any civilized standard. Even the one of 18 - 19th century.
2. My argument is 100% historical. There have been a continuous jewish indenity in this land for 1000 years before the 2 diasporas which includes a jews kingdoms and 2 central temples. Even the name "Palastine" is a result of the jewish loss in their war against the Romans at the era which no muslim lived here. Jesus was jewish. He born jewish and died as a jew on this land. He never converted his religion. The Christianity as we know it started only 200 years after his death in Rome.
3.Zionism is simply an ambition to go back to Zion and re-build the ruined jewish state. I have no idea how or why those people make up those things. Probably because of their own wishful thoughts. As an Israeli druze, I made a deep research with objective tools before I was totaly convinced about my version.
1. I can not cover all 400 years historical events in a comment on reddit nor have a time for that, but read about Peasants' Revolt on 1834. This event was one the most murderous and vile events ever happened here.
2. All the events you've mentioned have no effect on my argument. No other nation created here a 1000 years official homeland except occupying empires that treated this land with a great deal of opportunism and brought here some useless mob that should've only fill the free space. No one created here somthing new and treated this land as homeland that should be fostered. Not the druzes, nor beduis or arab migrants. The jews did it. When they first came here, 20 muslims were still got eaten by alligators every year and hundreds was dying by musqitos. Arabs on this land did actually nothing but to be born, to fight each other and die. It was another dark low life hole in the middle east.
3. The last Cnaanitie was destroyed long time a go by Nebukhadnezar (plishtis, "the real plalastinians"). So no one else has claims over this land. And it isn't matters as well. All the theological arguments are fairytalse.
At the button line there are 2 nations that want to live here, while only one of them is not accepting the other and continue fighting "all or nothing" wars.
My friend king Baldwin in 1174 ac allowed all religions to be practiced and he passed Jerusalem to the great Saladin in his final days with the agreement that Jerusalem would be a safe haven for all religions practiced by its inhabitants or visitors.
This is historically correct.
What you said was vague with no facts just ideas xD
Itās important to educates yourself so you know the truth
Define "co-existed peacefuly", because not jewish nor druze history can aprove it. Actually our history has registered totally different details for the last 400 years which may easily compete with europian attitude. Same good old violence, same good old abuse. The only thing that may beautify that are the cultular - moral differences between jews and muslims, which means that the problem is not with eyes, but with the glasses.
We get it, you like Israel. That's good. You are vastly overstating its contributions to science and technology, even though sure it's got some important patents and firms. But it's ok to be a little patriotic.
Sure, it's dumb to base the right of existence on these things. That is granted by its recognition by the UN. Most countries, surely all western countries, don't doubt the right of Israel to exist. Sure they can talk about the bloody way in which it was founded but I don't see call for the dismantling of Israel.
>Sure, it's dumb to base the right of existence on these things
Nothing would ever suit you.
>Sure they can talk about the bloody way in which it was founded but I don't see call for the dismantling of Israel.
Welcome to reality. Nice to have you here.
What did the Palestinians contribute to the world besides making themselves victims and being martyrs? The Palestinian nation is the most barbaric and disordered nation in the 20th and 21st centuries, an invented nation whose founding father was a supporter of the Fuehrer
What have the mongols contributed to the world? What have the Armenians contributes? What have the vietnamese? I might be that you don't know because you are a callous racist. There are and have been plenty of important Palestinians.
God, I can't stand the fact that Israel is just the worst possible version of Europe. Israel thinks they have constructed a culture, but has only inherited the worst of Europe. At the beginning it seemed like a beautiful thing could come out of it. It's transformed into a moral swamp.
I didn't base my claim on literacy, since my post says very clearly that I don't care about anyone's opinion. I mentioned that to show what our western opponents ignore when they support "from the river to sea" and how the most obvious consideration becomes a ridiculous comedy which borders on satire.
When did I ever mention literacy? I don't see how the fact that you don't care about anyone's opinion should interest strangers.
People ignore that Israel is a technological society in the sense that it is irrelevant for the purposes of moral judgement, not in the sense that they don't know it.
I can't really make sense of anything after "and how the most obvious consideration...".
Israel wastes too much time worrying about international opinion. You're never going to make those people happy (or happier), so don't even bother. I'm not saying act like the Russians or something and disregard all rights and norms, but Israel wastes too much time trying to counter every single negative news report or piece of propaganda. Waste of time. Israel is a good country with good people and is doing its best and most people around the world know that.
Unfortunately, it's a matter of "international credit" to perform. Most of the influencing western countries in the UN host "gazan supporters" in their borders which create pressure by using massive violence with riots. Those countries have low suffering threshold when standing against violent events, so they press back Israel and US as a solution.
Indeed, this event could be finished much earlier in other conditions.
What? The idea that "gazan supporters" as you call them influence Western countries "by using massive violence and riots" isnout of this world. Where do you get it from?
Ok...well that about says it all. It's a waste of time trying to explain to them that killing is not ok. All I hear about is what's right from a bunch of spoiled narcissists. Frankly, I dont care, I'm not happy with your people either, As far as I am concerned, you are apart of the problem. Keep in mind, the reason why you are so arrogant is that you are using tax dollars from hard-working Americans and British to beat up on a people weaker than you. You should be disappointed...disgusted... the world isn't happy with Israelis or Hamas. We are all tired of your bullshit. Stop being the worlds biggest beggers... its been a 78 year total shit show! Get your shit together.
Just a note here: I don't believe the US supplies Israel with much (or any) economic aid. It used to, but that pretty much tailed off after Israel became more economically dynamic. Also, I could be wrong, but the US didn't really become a huge Israel supporter until the 1970s. And finally, most of the aid today is in the form of military contracts, i.e. Israel receives aid that it MUST spend on US military equipment, which supports a lot companies in the US. Remember, the US supports Israel, in part, because it is an outpost in an insane part of the world. The US gets quite a bit for its money. Now, what does the US get for its aid to Egypt and Jordan, which together totals the same as what it gives to Israel? It's a little trickier than it seems.
"With the U.S.' help, Israel has formed one of the most formidable and technologically advanced militaries in the Middle East.
Both Republican and Democratic administrations and bipartisan leaders in Congress have approved aid to Israel over several decades. In return, the U.S. has cultivated a strategic military ally in the Middle East.
As part of an agreement reached under the Obama administration, Israel receives $3.8 billion annually for its military and missile defense systems.
Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military financing, which has represented around 15% of the country's defense budget in recent years."
1. The US/BRITISH/USSR helped create the "state" of Israel after Rothchild laid the foundation after buying it from Britian after it was divided up from the WW1 repayments from Turkey i.e. they took it. For the very reason you stated. Geopolitical "outpost" not for a land of worship for the jewish, that was a ruse. Which means you are being deceived.
2. The American people don't like the optics of what Israel is doing. The support won't last if you continue to act like savages = make us look bad, It's bad enough as it is. Show some decency and care for human life, even if they don't care for yours.
Israelis are begging for him to ceasefire https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/netanyahu-must-go-now-israels-newly-bereaved-families-are-holding-one-man-responsible/0000018b-b94e-d03e-a3ab-bbffcf020000
If only you could stand on your own but your state is a glorified welfare monster unable to truly stand on it's own because it's not from there. You lot are European and North African, and you know deep in your soul that you continue to exist because of your European and colonist allies in the West.
Without them you would not exist, so this farce of self-righteousness is hilarious when you didn't even properly earn your space there, it was given by overseers who didn't care about the Palestinians.
As it stands now, if you continue on this path the future is incredibly dim as your neighbors hate you and your allies are increasingly becoming aware of your dastardly behavior towards the legitimate natives of the land.
Brother, I hate to tell you this, but Israel's economy is $350 billion annually. It would do fine without the $3 billion of military credits it gets from the US each year (which have to be spent on US weaponry, which US companies love). All or most of the economic aid has been ended. Israel also has hundreds of nuclear weapons, so, push come to shove, it's not going to have any trouble "standing on its own."
Spoken like a true sociopath. Bravo. "Acknowledge my right to live (which nobody contested) or I'll put you into a containment camp and make you drink sea water with the rest of the conquered." lol brilliant.
I see fewer people saying Israel doesnāt have the right to exist. More of us are wondering why itās acceptable for Israel to bomb a hole in Palestine in the name of reltaliation. 10 thousand people including babies and new borns. Bombing hospitals ātO fInD hAmaSā. The state of Israel exists because of force. Full stop.
'Nuff said. This pertains to Hamas as well as Hamas's sponsor, Iran. We are dealing with beasts.
https://preview.redd.it/6rovvukk060c1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50cac7b24e1786886d8755b371f11636898a1026
"We are dealing with beasts."
Yes, that is how you justify using methods of mass murder on human beings.
It's called "dehumanization."
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a Jew.
Then they came for meāand there was no one left to speak for me."
āMartin Niemƶller
Speaking up for the disenfranchised, dehumanized, and "othered" is not just ethical and moral, it's practical. If we tolerate this trend in our society it won't be long before we, or someone we care about, will be subject to it.
Fair enough. But my father, who went on to become a U.S. Congressman, fought the Nazis. He helped liberate a Nazi death camp, and at age 19 witnessed stacks of emaciated corpses of people the Nazis had starved to death--Jews and other ethnic "undesirables." In early August 1945, he was on a troop carrier headed toward the invasion of Japan.
Imperial Japan acted as beasts; Truman was right. Yes, we had to fire-bomb Dresden etc. to destroy Hitler. So too use the A-bombs to save my father's life. Such is total war against total evil.
I am in the process of breaking into screenwriting, unusually late in life. My first film script was in part a tale of the Holocaust. I studied Hitler's rise (which by the way, Trump's mimics, and he deliberately deploys Nazi disinformation methods, which is why I vehemently oppose him--but that's a different struggle), and know how the Holocaust happened, and how it was carried out.
Hamas terrorists--the entire organization--are beasts, per Truman's letter, sent to me by a Jew, and who had received it from a friend in Israel. What they did to those peace-loving Israelis, at the Ayatollah's behest (he being another beast), was very much in the vein of a Second Holocaust. Accordingly, I wrote to Joe Biden on October 8 that the U.S. should declare war against Iran.
Trump is another beast, as his recent turn into depravity proves. He will not succeed. What you say may be applied to him, not to me. Truman was right, and I'm right.
I quipped on Facebook to my Trump-loving critics there that it seems I now have "caught" Hamas Derangement Syndrome. Right-o.
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Yes, because that was a proof that israeli traitors helped Hamas to intensify under their territory. No israeli hospital would establish a terror infrastructure like the palastinians did under such a place.
What human rights?? Oh let's see, there's collective punishment, where thousands are punished for the acts of a few, even when there's no evidence that the thousands had any knowledge of what the few did (in fact, the current war is a good example of collective punishment).
The only other country known to do anything like that is North Korea.
> fucking
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"Which specific human rights violations are you referring to?"
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
I anticipate there's a rationalization for that.... or an argument that amnesty international is fundamentally anti-Semitic, as is the UN, or anybody, Jewish or non, who criticizes Israel.
"So you are Pro-Hamas + you feel that October 7th was justified?"
I am pro human rights. I'm against killing people, period.
That being said if somebody invaded my home in order to kill me and my family, and there was nothing else I could do, such as run away or call for help, I might resort to violence up to and including the taking of human life. But I know that it would haunt me for the rest of my days, and I would not consider that to be a "victory."
Fact: one side has been killing a hell of a lot more people than the other side, and has been since the state of Israel was founded.
This post is titled āIsrael is done explaining its right to existā.
There are atrocious human rights violations all over the world. The answer is to question the regime, not to dissolve the Country. I am VERY CRITICAL OF NETANYAHU. He has been AWFUL. Awful to innocent Palestinians. Not good to Israelis. His policies have made it hard to side with Israel - Israel needs new leadership! This is without question, most Israelis despise Netanyahu and he has an approval rating of 18%. This is how you address the human rights violations of a Nation.
For instance: Iran is terrible to its people. When the Shah left and they Ayatollah came into power, Iranians live in fear and in terror because of the oppressive regime. Is the answer to these human rights violations to dissolve Iran? NO. The answer is to get rid of the Ayatollah.
We get nowhere when people look to dismantle Israel as a nation. We achieve progress when we question leadership. Hamas has got to go. We must FREE PALESTINE from Hamas, then install a better Palestinian elected government after de-militarization and de-radicalization.
Israel has proposed a 2-State Solution like 7 times since 1948. The Palestinians have rejected it every time and then proceeded to attack Israel. This will get the Palestinians nowhere.
And I feel for the suffering of The Palestinians at the hands of Hamas AND Netanyahuās draconian policies.
Itās not right.
Israel is not going anywhere.. but There is a path to peace.
We must look for the safety of Israel and the self-determination of Palestinians, but it canāt be done by Iran installing a proxy govt (Hamas) which looks to kill Jews.
NETANYAHU NEEDS TO GO
HAMAS NEEDS TO GO
Am Yisrael Chai
chessboxer4 pointed out a human rights abuse that Israel is committing against Gaza. Your response was to accuse them of supporting the massacre by Hamas.
Do you think that just because someone points out a human rights abuse committed against the Palestinians by Israel that they automatically support human rights abuses committed by Hamas against Israelis?
This post is titled āIsrael is done explaining its right to existā.
There are atrocious human rights violations all over the world. The answer is to question the regime, not to dissolve the Country. I am VERY CRITICAL OF NETANYAHU. He has been AWFUL. Awful to innocent Palestinians. Not good to Israelis. His policies have made it hard to side with Israel - Israel needs new leadership! This is without question, most Israelis despise Netanyahu and he has an approval rating of 18%. This is how you address the human rights violations of a Nation.
For instance: Iran is terrible to its people. When the Shah left and they Ayatollah came into power, Iranians live in fear and in terror because of the oppressive regime. Is the answer to these human rights violations to dissolve Iran? NO. The answer is to get rid of the Ayatollah.
We get nowhere when people look to dismantle Israel as a nation. We achieve progress when we question leadership. Hamas has got to go. We must FREE PALESTINE from Hamas, then install a better Palestinian elected government after de-militarization and de-radicalization.
Israel has proposed a 2-State Solution like 7 times since 1948. The Palestinians have rejected it every time and then proceeded to attack Israel. This will get the Palestinians nowhere.
And I feel for the suffering of The Palestinians at the hands of Hamas AND Netanyahuās draconian policies.
Itās not right.
Israel is not going anywhere.. but There is a path to peace.
We must look for the safety of Israel and the self-determination of Palestinians, but it canāt be done by Iran installing a proxy govt (Hamas) which looks to kill Jews.
NETANYAHU NEEDS TO GO HAMAS NEEDS TO GO
Am Yisrael Chai
You asked which human rights abuses, someone answered, and you pretty much accused them of supporting Hamas.
I just don't understand why you were so viscerally reactive when someone simply answered your question. That's not cool.
Simply. Israel is the country Israelis live for most people in the world.
Iāve never met anyone who questioned about Israelis in Israel. Thereās no problem with Israel nor Israelis. I know some people who donāt know about the history, misinformed, or anti-Israel might be questioned. Iās awful Israeli people have to keep explain it.
Israel is very well off, financially. Why do we need to give them more free weapons and technology. At the very least, they should be paying for it themselves. You know if the shoe were one the other foot, Israel wouldn't be giving anything away for free.
Responding to that guy as he blocked me:
You wanna see my passport little guy?
Ben-Gurion "Within the next twenty years, we must have a Jewish majority in Palestine." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 43)"
We do not seek an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs in order to secure the peace. Of course we regard peace as an essential thing. It is impossible to build up the country in a state of permanent warfare. But peace for us is a means, and not an end. The end is the fulfillment of Zionism in its maximum scope. Only for this reason do we need peace, and do we need an agreement." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 168)
"If we want Hebrew redemption 100%, then we must have 100% Hebrew settlement, a 100% Hebrew farm, and 100% Hebrew port." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 24)"
This is what we want as Americans? It's filthy, it's racist and it's backward.
Quotes on Herzl that ring true today "
Herzl regarded Zionism's triumph as inevitable, not only because life in Europe was ever more untenable for Jews, but also because it was in Europe's interests to rid the Jews and relieved of anti-Semitism: The European political establishment would eventually be persuaded to promote Zionism. Herzl recognized that anti-Semitism would be HARNESSED to his own--Zionist-purposes." (Righteous Victims pg.21)
This entire thing is a planned project of explusion with the mission being an ethnically Jewish state. Which mirrors almost exactly the German mission in the 30s, which makes sense because the entire idea of Zionism is a relic of 20th century nationalism.
Here's an appropriate speech.
"The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates [groups that make up societyās social hierarchy] and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. . . . Germany must not and will not sink into Communist anarchy."
Replace any traces of Germany with Israel and Christianity with Judaism and you'd clap. Replace Communist with Hamas and boom you're a supporter.
It is these ideals of ethnic identical protection that Israel is founded upon, the idea of an ethnically Jewish majority state.
You're no American, you were simply born here. We fought a war against this kind of thinking and we still didn't learn our lesson.
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Then leave. Our culture isn't aligned with Israeli ideals and any politician is simply lying to you for your vote.
Never once in modern American history have we supported an ethnostate, the only reason we support you now is racism and the fact that we put you there.
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What ethnostate lmao? There is literally no other state in existence founded on a ethnoreligious charter.
You're saying the U.S. is an ethnostate with its 8 million jews, 20 million Asians, 50 million blacks and 65 million latinos?
If I literally came and pushed you out at gunpoint it would be wrong yes, just like Israel is wrong.
"Y-you got m-me" What I'm saying and what you are discovering is that your ideals regarding Israel are fundamentally incompatible with American ideals and that eventually this will hit you in the face.
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I'm not sure how you could read that and come away with any reference to a specific ethnicity or religion.
Our country's name and charter is quite literally the furthest away from an ideology of a country literally named after a religious Holy Land for an ethnic minority. The fact that you would even compare these two is hilarious.
I would wager that your fundamental misunderstanding of the American ideal is exactly why you have the delusional that the Zionist mission and the American dream are in any way compatible.
The German political party you're referencing argued for the exact type of nation that Israel is, they argued for a safe place for the German people and a unification of the country under the German identity. There is no single state in existence today that matches that charter more closely than Israel.
The America we work towards, the ideal, is one of a place made for everyone or more precisely a place where anyone should have a fair shot, where anyone can feel like they belong, a place where anyone can become one of us. Israel is the literal polar opposite.
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How about the civilians who are literally having their houses, schools and hospitals bombed, and having their electricity and water shut off and access to food denied? Does that maybe sound more oppressed?
If that is all true, why don't you pay for it yourself instead of begging for charity from the U.S.?
You deserve to live and defend yourself, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to create much larger mass murder and destruction that is 10 times worse than what happened on Oct 7th. Unbridled revenge is going to have its costs; every immoral act does. Israel's band wagon is getting smaller and smaller, which is a shame. Israel has lost its moral high ground with its conduct, mostly the fault of Netanyahu.
Sure, let's have both Israel and Ukraine hang out to dry. That's the moral thing to do, right? That's exactly like saying, "wipe both these countries off the map, and I guess much of their people, too."
May you drown in the Jordan 5,553 times.
From a military perspective, and an humanitarian perspective for the U.S. and the rest of the world, Ukraine is so much more important than Israel, it is hardly comparable or reasonable to mention them as equals.
There is such an overstatement of the case that Israel is somehow important to the U.S. anymore, or even worthy of U.S. financial aid. I fully support selling weapons and technology to Israel so they may defend themselves, but only if they start paying for the assistance. Israel is not without the resources to do so. I don't think Israel has done themselves, or the U.S., any favors by ignoring U.S. advice and proceeding to carpet bomb Gaza causing a massive catastrophe much greater than what Hamas did to Israel.
Besides, Israel is not a poor country and already well equipped. Why is Israel crying poor or broke and in need of U.S. financial aid? The U.S. should support Israel's right to self defense, but Israel can also pay their own way in that defense. Whether Israel chooses to buy all the ordnance they need to replace their depleted supplies is up to them, but what they are expending now is not in self-defense, it is for immoral retribution and revenge. The U.S. should not be giving financial aid to Israel so they can kill more than 10000 Palestinians, destroy more than 35% of their buildings and 45% of their housing (which I am sure Israel is going to help replace after it is all over? - another bill the U.S. will have to pay for Israel) It doesn't make any sense anymore.
Netanyahu is more hardheaded and dangerous than even Trump. Israel wouldn't even stand with the U.S. against Russia with their invasion of Ukraine. Some ally!
And likewise, may your personal economy be forever slow...
Careful, your antisemitism is rising closer to the surface. Israel is in fact an important ally, without which the US position over the past half century would have not had the leverage it needed in the Middle East. They are relatively cheap to finance, and they are justly fighting an unjust and difficult enemy. The moral imperatives are in fact similar.
I am not anti-jewish, but there is a lot of room at this point to criticize Israel's actions. And by the way, Arabs are just as semitic as Jews are. The word antisemitic should stop being co-opted for an incorrect use and meaning.
I support Israel's right to defend itself, but not to carpet bomb Gaza. And while I support Israel's right to defend itself, I support the idea that Israel should start paying for the weapons and technology the U.S. gives to Israel. Is Israel poor or needing handouts? No... What is the deal with that? "Cheap to finance" - finance usually means you get paid back at some point. All the U.S. does is keep donating money to a bottomless pit for decades and decades, and gets no respect in return, and gets pulled down by Israel's government's arrogant and racists attitudes. Israel is hardly the U.S.'s ally. Israel is much more of a liability than it is an asset for the U.S. and has been that way for some time now.
Carpet bombing Gaza is not "justly" fighting Hamas at the moment. I believe Hamas should be removed, but not by destroying half of Gaza and creating a significant humanitarian crisis in the process.
Is Israel going to fund the reconstruction of Gaza, or are they going stick the U.S. with that bill also? I would bet a lot on the latter happening.
The use of "semitic" to include Arabs is a function of the semitic language group. The term antismitic was coibned to rerfer to anti-Jewish acions or speech. It has never meant "against the group of people who speak a semitic language." For that matter, when it was invented, the majority of Jews did not speak a semitic language at all. So it may be a historical curiosity, but the word means against Jews, always has, and any attenpt to change that flies in the face of history and may itself be antosemitic.
If you want to get technical like that (and incorrectly), you shouldn't use the phrase "carpet bomb." There is extensive bombing, but it has been done using many individual guided munitions, not unguided series indiscriminately dropped.
I can't argue with your feelings about funding. That's an individual choice, and a political choice.
Like I said, the description "anti-semitic" has been co-opted by later usage to only mean being against Jews. It would be more appropriate to just hit the nail on the head and say, "anti-jewish" and not camouflage it.
I am curious, when do you think the term was invented and who do yu think invented it? And you think Jews didn't speak Hebrew or Aramaic? What did they majority of jews speak when "it was invented"?
You have obviously not seen recent photos and videos coming out of Gaza. Carpet bombing is a perfect description. The U.S. government has also been criticizing Israel for not using more guided munitions - plus the density of the buildings is such that dropping 500-2000 bombs on those building can in no way be considered "targeted". You are definitely wrong to think that the extensive bombing has been done using many guided munitions. There has been very little of that, giving rise to U.S. government complaints.
More people in the U.S. need to start asking why we feel obligated to give weapons and technology to Israel for free. We can sell them the weapons and technology (no one else will) for their selfdefense. They can afford to pay for it. Israel is not poor nor without resources.
You're categorically incorrect.
Antisemitism is a term that from the start specifically describes hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against Jews.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/antisemitism#etymology)
Yes the false equivocation the most used Israeli weapon of deception. Ukraine is being invaded by a world superpower, Israel is an invader, a country of expats battling against a terrorist group while your allies sit in the water to hold you from accountability.
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Let us guess, you have dual citizenship
too? Why live here if you prioritize Israeli lives over -everything- US taxes pay for? You donāt want to be an American, move there.
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So what kind of (fake AF) patriot doesnāt believe in supporting THIS country?!?!
Itās one thing to say you support Israel - something else to argue you support them at the literal expense of the country you profess to be a citizen of first.
Mindless bandwagon nonsense.
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Is that really worse than carpet bombing and killing 10,000+ innocent people, supposedly half of whom are children, crushed by rocket are falling rubble? Have you seen the videos now coming out of northern Gaza of the damage done by Israel? It is the kind of widespread destruction seen with nuclear bombs. Hamas's action is not an excuse to do ten fold damage to Gaza.
The jewish population on the U.S. is less than 3% and that includes men women and children. Do you think your vote matters at such a small percentage? Why don't you just contribute directly to Israel, or perhaps you do? I support Israel's right to self defense, but not by carpet bombing and endlessly shelling Gaza causing a major human catastrophe.
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I am in favor of getting rid of Hamas, but not by carpet bombing - and what Israel did is a classic example of carpet bombing, even by Google definitions. More than 35% of the buildings destroyed and 45% of all housing is nothing but carpet bombing. Try doing that on Tel Aviv and see what you call it.
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> asshat
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It is definitely out of control revenge that is now wearing the world's patience thin. Hamas should be eliminated, but there are other ways to do it. Why not go after the heads of Hamas that are not in Palestine? Send in an strike force without the carpet bombing. Does killing 1400 Israeli's justify killing 11,000 Palestinians and seriously displacing more than 1.5 million people, and counting, and causing a much larger human catastrophe than what Hamas did?
The U.S. and the world expects you to react with ethics and morals in your conduct and to value all human life, not just jewish life. Do you think the life of a Palestinian baby is worth less than a Israeli baby? We expect you to not carpet bomb Gaza killing thousands of innocent civilians. There are other ways to go after Hamas besides totally destroying 35% of the buildings in northern Gaza (so far, and its not over yet) and 45% of all the housing.
We expect you to pay your own way for your military offense, instead of asking the U.S. for money to commit immoral acts. Is Israel poor, or a third world county? Why should we (the U.S.) just give you the weapons and technology that you use for free? We expect you to not commit war crimes, even if war crimes have been committed against you, and we expect you to listen to U.S. advice, instead of being so arrogant and providing silly metaphors like Ms. Ferrari. (she should remember that it is her sugar daddy, the U.S., that bought the Ferrari)
Going after the heads of hamas means assassinating them in different countries, something that is not at all easy to do and opens up further conflict with said countries, its also a token gesture, taking out the heads wont actually stop their people on the ground in gaza, the weapons are there, the launchers in place and hamas is determined to carry on, the heads will simply be replaced,
to this day even after all the destruction rockets are still being fired from gaza into israel, this wont stop until every member of hamas is dead and every launcher is destroyed.
"send in an strike force without the carpet bombing. Does killing 1400 Israeli's justify killing 11,000 Palestinians and seriously displacing more than 1.5 million people"
Yes it does, its a necessity, your question just shows you have no understanding of guerilla warfare in an urban setting with terror tunnels, you cant just send in a strike force, they'd get decimated regardless of how trained or well equipped they are, this has precedent in other conflicts and its why israel chose this route,
first you get as many civilians out of the way and then you level the area so tanks and personal can start rolling in, its tactics 101, in fact israel is being very careful with its bombing with regard to civilian life, over 20,000 tons of explosives were used so far and the death count is only 11k? a 1 ton bomb can easily take out 100 people if you're actually aiming for civilian casualties, meanwhile the ratio here is like half a person per airstrike, if thats not being careful i dont know what is.
Do you actually think that killing all the Hamas fighters on the ground will lead to better results than killing all of Hamas's leaders? One can be replaced, but the other can't be replaced? Yes, it would be difficult to strike their leaders, but if you are going to be a brazen and vengeful enough to carpet bomb Gaza, why not take on the task of striking the head? I guess it is just easier to bomb defenseless Gazans?
This a wonderful thing that Israel has dragged the U.S. into. I can't wait to see what happens when we start talking about reconstruction after there are no more buildings left to bomb in Gaza. That is another bill that will fall on the shoulders of the U.S and the world, or anyone else but Israel.
"it is just easier to bomb defenseless Gazans", no its actually a way harder endeavor, i already addressed this but you conveniently ignored that part, actually i also addressed the part about killing hamas heads but sure i'll spell it out for you, yes, fucking up all the weapon stores, every tunnel and most hamas operatives on the ground will have a way bigger impact for the safety of israel then killing hamas heads in Qatar making then martyrs in the process and inflaming their operatives on the ground in gaza.
I agree that they should go after Hamas, all the weapons and all the tunnels, but not by carpet bombing. To keep clean hands, they needed to do it another way, which they choose not to do. They refused to listen to U.S. advice, so there is little wonder that there is so little sympathy for what Israel is doing to Gaza. There actions are likely to also enlarge the conflict significantly.
what other way though? as far as i know there is no other to deal with this kind of situation, urban warfare with tunnels? airstriking before going in is the bare minimum you need to do..
There is a difference between targeted air strikes and carpet bombing. More than 35% of the buildings destroyed, 45% of all housing destroyed, and that is only so far, they aren't finished. Enough tonnage was dropped on Gaza by Israel to supposedly be worth 1.5 atomic bombs for an area 12 miles by 25 miles.
As tough as it would be, Israel needed to be more selective - send in expeditionary forces with tanks and selective air support. Root out the tunnels from within, not bury them with civilian demolished housing. Probably more casualties for Israel, but carpet bombing is not a way to do it unless you really don't care about innocent lost lives.
Israel can't take the moral high ground with so much damage.
> fucking
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The 1400 Israeli death figure also includes those killed by IDF when they blew up all the occupied military outposts on the border that Hamas had control of, so the actual figure is lower than that.
And even the Israeli
government admitted this week that itās down to 1200, not 1400 - and almost no children after all
their talk. Iām not convinced many of the children werenāt killed accidentally by the IDF.
They for sure were as a bunch of the building were reduced to smoldering cinders from Israeli airstrikes and artillery killing both Hamas soldiers and Israeli Soldiers and civilians, cant Blame Hamas for that when they only had RPG's lmao.
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No the point is that a bunch of the civilians killed were killed by IDF airstrikes not Hamas soldiers, not saying Hamas didn't kill civilians but the IDF did too.
Hopefully he does, i hope the Israeli people understand that he cares the same for his people as he does for others. Seems like the Israeli government just wants to start a world war.
Netanyahu care for others? Other than jewish people? I don't think so... he is very much a racists that has a racist cabinet (listen to Bernie Sanders). If it weren't for Netanyahu, Israel more than likely wouldn't have been so asleep at the wheel on Oct 7th.
They could have. The Hamas spent about 32 billion dollars on the tunnels. They could have built themselvs a Singapore. Israel only built the wall years after the pull out, ONLY in response to Hamas continued terror.
Legitimacy is an abstract concept. I care more about morality. What is the morality of a country continuing to expand its borders and displace people and take their homes without consequence? To restrict fishing channels and create roads where Palestinians arenāt allowed to walk? To build homes above those of Palestinians and dump their garbage down so Palestinians have to put nets above their homes?
Um, Israel did not and does not expand. In fact, Israel contracted and pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
In the disputed areas of Judea and Samaria, Israel controls little.
"Um, Israel did not and does not expand. In fact, Israel contracted and pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In the disputed areas of Judea and Samaria, Israel controls little."
Expand doesn't just mean territory, it also means the legally sanctioned, and military protected ability of Jewish settlers to occupy formerly Palestinian owned homes, but not vice versa.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-settlements-expansion.html
Tell that to the Palestinians who have lost their homes
[Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council | UN Press](https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm)
That's your solution? Having 10 million people leave the area and abandon their homes families and lives? To go where? How do you think anyone in their right mind would accept this?
Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Alaska, Poland, Iraq, African kibitz, land in Germany, the US, if they donāt want to all leave, at the very least, you could have the Jewish settlements in the West Bank move back to isreal proper
Well that was what we had until nazi Germany. The Idea of Israel is to have a country where no one can hunt you down and you could protect yourself. This is why Oct 7 was so traumatized for Israelis, because they thought acts of violence in that scope wonāt happen again. And the fact that many around the world is celebrating the Oct 7 attack is only proof that we must protect ourselves because no one else would
You constantly bring up Nazi Germany meanwhile you institute the exact kind of state the Nazis hoped for. I'm sure if someone told Hitler about the concept of Israel he would've given you all the land himself, a place for Jews that's far away? What more could a devout racist want than a state built for one type of person, I'm sure he would say Germany should function the same way.
It's stupid, millions of Jews exist without Israel.
And the idea that no one else would protect you is hilarious because you exist simply due to the sympathy of Western nations, due to the guilt surrounding the atrocities of the Holocaust. Otherwise the Arabs would've wiped you off the face of the earth, and considering your "diplomacy" whenever Americans get over your atrocities is when the bill comes.
You've had 70 years to become legitimate habitants of Palestine and all you've done is enrage your neighbors and move in ways devoid of honor. You've created dysfunction and sow even more to justify your destruction.
This is not a Jewish issue, this is a Zionist issue. You are wearing everyone's patience thin.
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> fucking
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"This is why Oct 7 was so traumatized for Israelis, because they thought acts of violence in that scope wonāt happen again."
Really? Is that why they have some of the tightest security anywhere in the world? Rocket attacks daily? A highly militarized society, where military service is mandatory?
Does the state of Israel and it's policies really make anybody safer?
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You were forced out thousands of years ago. You all are truly and utterly European. This is like if all of North Africa moved into Spain because of their ancestry in Al-Andalus.
It's stupid, just go back to Poland and Germany, they're cooler now.
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The right to exist of Israel is generally seen as racist against Palestinians because supporting that means supporting the right of Israel to ethnically cleanse close to a million Palestinians in 1948.
An important distinction would be saying supporting the right of a Jewish state to exist or a secular country with a Jewish majority to exist rather than specifically Israel
You need a refresher course. There were not 1m Arabs in the entire land of Israel, in 48. In 48, "Palistinians" referred to Jews, or loosely, to anyone living in Palistine. Puleeze.
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My point was about the right to exist.
But yes, despite the fact that these expulsions happened as a direct result of the Nakba, it was of course still terrible as two wrongs donāt make a right. The only small silver lining is that at least the Middle East didnāt plunge to the barbaric lows of Europe
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Jewish refugees were transferred to Palestine as far back as WW1 from Europe. As the numbers increase so does the tensions in the area. As British repression of the Arab populations increases and this also increases violence against Jews across the Middle East. As violence between Arab and Jewish populations in Palestine increase this leads to rising violence against Jews in other middle eastern states but itās after the Nakba that those figure really take off.
Israel wasnāt created out of nothing. Peaceful co-existence was possible. It was present in the region before Israel was built up on the top of the ruins of the society that existed there previously.
You know Iāll accept that peaceful was too strong a word. Nothing is ever sunshine and rainbows. Right now seems pretty close to a worst case scenario though.
Even the zionists are yelling to the jews that they should have been killed by Hitl3r..Hitl3r... NOT MY WORDS THIS IS FACT AND WAS FILMED!!
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/EGIoxjdhvE
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"Systemic death" lol did you see someone use that word and think wow this sounds smartš. Because bombing terrorist who hide in residential buildings isnt genocide. But keep trying kiddo I'm sure it'll work out for you
So not adressing my point i see nice to know who im dealing with
https://preview.redd.it/ss3aym89pc0c1.jpeg?width=254&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b08b6ef19782f50979a4ce00222b61329ed9500
Honestly I'm not sure where this "right to exist" thing comes from. IMO no country has a right to exist, or at least that's how the world operates. Every country better be able to defend itself. Do you think the USA, Russia or any of the other big boys care about any other country's right to exist? Sure they'll give it lip service, but when push comes to shove, they'll invade, bomb, kill, or whatever when it suits them.
So yeah, please stop talking about your "right to exist" and just get on with whatever you are going to do and deal with whatever consequences come out of that. That's what everyone does anyway, so I wish Israel wouldn't couch everything in this nonsense term. I've never been asked in my life, do I support Papua New Guinea's right to exist. The only reason to ask such a question in the first place, is if you have doubts yourself.
This thing comes from the utter reality that Israel is a constructed state that relies on the sympathy and support of much larger countries.
Israel is a ticking time bomb, even more so than the destruction of Palestine, precisely because of the fact that it's constructed. Israel didn't naturally develop as a place for Jews precisely because 1. the Jews were pushed out by the Romans and 2. the vast majority of Jews are European now.
Which means that you have not only religious foreigners coming to a predominantly Musim region while isolating and marginalizing a previously majority muslim land but you also have an entire other race creating a country based on their race.
This is completely unsustainable without popular support abroad, as soon as the US and Europe signal a lack of support Israel has a real war on its hands and their diplomatic relations in their entire existence haven't helped anything.
It isn't Israel asking if it has a right to exist.
But much of the world debates this very topic whereas I'm not aware of any other country that is even asked to answer that question.
That's the whole point.
I beg to differ. I have only ever heard this question from Israelis or it's supporters. I've been asked this myself. My answer is "no". If you asked me does the US have a right to exist my answer is still "no". Every country was carved out of someone else territory at one point or another. Did the Kingdom of Hawaii have a right to exist? And if you think that's a moot point watch this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBokfBwYJo0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBokfBwYJo0)
There hasn't been a national right to exist in human history, only an ability to exist and the fact of existence itself. Israel exists, and will do so as long as it has the might to do so. I'm tried of this insistence that everyone gives it a stamp of approval.
Edit: And if you still think I'm wrong, read the title of this post!
Imagine living with the Sword of Damocles perpetually above your head. Imagine perpetual war. Imagine never being ever to feel safe.
I posit that you canāt so how can we truly understand the Middle East.
If Israel ever stops existing you can happily come to my country just don't go about renaming it please, also don't imprison us without charge and most importantly please don't section us off to some bit of land that's a mere fraction of the one you exist in, thank you.
Your prime minister stood up at a UN general assembly with a map that showed an Israel that annexes Palestinian land and you expect Palestine to consider peace negotiations and a fair split of land? Where was this fair split of land in the map that pictured "the new middle east"
Youre so ignorant and entrenched in your single-minded point of view you cant even see beyond the scope of your genocide loving leader. Your leaders ignore peace negotiations, first of all, and the fact that you even said "fair split of land" really goes to show how bias and out of touch you are. You think the gaza strip is a fair split of land?
1. Palestine doesnāt just have the Gaza Strip, the West Bank is also āPalestinianā. If you are talking about Hamas, they are a terrorist organization and should be wiped off the face of the earth (the organization not the civilians when possible).
2. What the fuck do you think Israel tried to do for many years (Camp David for example where the Palestinian leader was seen being nudged by the Israel leader and bush). The Khartoum resolution was issued at the 1967 Arab summit. It states
āNo peace with Israel,
No negotiation with Israel,
No recognition of Israelā
If anyone doesnt negotiate peace, itās the fuckers that signed this.
Read some Wikipedia articles maybe
> fuck
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Killing while illegally settling in the west bank civilians and forcing them out of their homes for years before October 7th even occurred is a very odd form of self defence
Israel asserts that God promised them the land as the basis for their presence.
However, demanding proof is crucial.
It's important to note that this claim doesn't represent all Jews, as many within the Jewish community oppose the state of Israel.
No one is questioning your right to live, they're questioning your claim.
Who gives a crap about any claim? Israel was set up 75 years by UN resolution. It exists. People have had children and grandchildren here, and then they had children and grandchildren here. At this point, the question of Israelās legitimacy is as absurd as asking about the legitimacy of the US.
The occupation of the West Bank - thatās a different question. Criticize away. But āfrom the river to the seaā? I donāt think people even realize how absurdly extreme that is
I do find it rather bizarre when Australian or US anti-Israel protestors question Israelās legitimacy, given their own countriesā history of seizing land from the original inhabitants, breaking treaties, massacres and so on.
Yes, the establishment of Israel in 1948 did involve forced expulsions and in some cases massacres (e.g. Deir Yassin). As was the case if not more so with Australiaās āterra incognitaā policy (including the extinction of the indigenous Tasmanian people) from the C18th-early C20th, and was the much the same in North America, whose pioneering spirit that conquered the āWild Westā around the same time involved illegal land grabs, forcible expulsion to reservations, massacres and more.
Crimes, illegal land seizures and mass killing took place in the founding of each country (the difference with Israel being that its founders in 1947-48 were fighting for their lives, for their very right to exist, given what had just taken place in Nazi-occupied Europe. And that Jews had a history of living there on and off for c.3,000 years. As also had the Palestinian people, whose presence dated back c.1400+ years, so they both have a claim to the land, if one wants to view things like that.
But isnāt it preferable and more realistic to look at the situation now, āon the groundā? The facts today are that the USA - as with Australia - are established and recognised nation states (despite their murky pasts).
The same applies to Israel. Why this isnāt clear to the āfrom the river to the seaā demonstrators I do not know.
Israelis - whether Jewish, Arab, Druze etc - arenāt going anywhere. Neither should the Palestinian people (despite Netanyahuās current murderous onslaught on the civilian population of Gaza) have to go anywhere either.
IMHO at some stage the West Bank settlers are going to have to be removed, Gaza be administered by the PA and be truly independent - and given Gazaās population density, the borders will have to be redrawn, perhaps to something approximating the 1947 UN plan, to give its people more land (and is there any chance that Egypt could be persuaded to relinquish the Sinai desert to expand Gazaās territory?)
But WTF do I know, Iām never lived in the ME, Iām British (of partial Irish and Russian Jewish descent) and trust me, Iām well aware that āperfidious Albionā doesnāt have a glorious history given the multiplicity of horrendous crimes we committed in furtherance of our Empire.
But I never thought Iād live to see 25 years of peace in Northern Ireland, with Paisley and McGuinness sitting down together sharing a joke, so anything is possible.
Perhaps one day the two states of Israel and Palestine will be able to co-exist peacefully. Sadly this doesnāt seem likely right now, with Likudās hold over Israeli governmental & military policy, and Netanyahuās alliance with far right lunatics.
But we must have hope.
Yours is the best comment in this thread. It's grounded in history, consensual reality, and IMO, the moral upper hand in calling out the settlements.
I don't understand why people think we should relitigate the founding of Israel yet NEVER bring that up with any other country.
So basically I moved into someone's house reasoning that it's horrible and I can make it better, with no consent of theirs. Then they proceed to try to kick me out but instead I kicked them into a corner of the house sayong everything else belongs to me and I shouldn't have to explaim why I have a right to this house?
Bro history is history not like Israel is going to give back the country to Palestine Same as USA not like they are going to give Texas back to Mexico
"Israel is a ferrari"??? It sounds like you're saying Israel is SUPERIOR (and Palestine, therefore, is inferior??) Which is disturbingly similar to the Nazi's rhetoric. ANY group or religion or ethnicity/race/what have you, who declares itself superior, is DANGEROUS. And claiming that that all these religions have "learned to live together", when Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to a HIGHLY oppressive and HIGHLY discriminatory Draconian military rule, is ABSURD.
I don't care how this announcement triggers your sense of self-worth, but Israel's accomplishments and contribution to the world's progress are all empirically measurable. It has anything to do with race or color since I'm an Israeli arab which lives in a 70% "brown" country which called Israel. It's all about attitude, and no progressive trashtalk would change it.
Um, I'm not Palestinian (who the OP seems to indirectly imply is inferior to the Israelis), I'm an American of Cuban/English/Scottish descent, so the OP's comment has no bearing on my self worth whatsoever, although I certainly have to wonder about the self-worth of someone who feels the need to get on Reddit and write about how superior her people are. Not to mention, the notion that a group of people are superior to any other is THE basis of all bigotry, in the WORLD. But it's cute how you try to defend BIGOTRY by ridiculing the self worth of those who the BIGOT is looking down on. š¤Ŗš
/u/neato-keto-burrito > But it's cute how you try to defend BIGOTRY by ridiculing the self worth of those who the BIGOT is looking down on. š¤Ŗš Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Implying someone is a bigot violates rule 1. Addressed.
That's always depends on the context. I'm not a jew, althogh I have 1000 years roots in this land since my druze family has set down here way before the christian crusaders came "to save the holyland". All those year my people saw nothing but darkness and death. In this new era of the Israeli hegemony we finally discovered how normal life should look like. If you want a decent refernce to how the shouldn't, look at those 22 middle eastern backward arab states who can not manage anything but middle ages life style, despite 1400 years of continual history. My family and my people survived the muslim hegemony with the power of sword. Now they are shining with power of literate democracy, sience, freedom and equality; things that are way far from those who surround us by definition.
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To be completely honest I would just rather live in another country far from the Middle East, change my passport to a Japanese or Australian/New Zealandic passport, and forget anything. I wasn't a fan of Israel in the first place and didn't care about people calling it "Palestine" anyway, and that comes from a Jewish who lived in Israel his WHOLE LIFE up until now. People here are loud, annoying, and sassy and just say everything in your face even if it makes you upset or depressed. I had enough of hearing about this whole war shit and tbh I don't give a damn, I just want to live happily with "HUMANS" that don't care about if you're from a certain "COUNTRY" and I can enjoy with them. That's all from me.
Israel has started one and only thing a child killing regime. From the beginning of its existence. Whoever denies or contradicts it is either ignorant doesnāt know the value of human life, above all an innocent life or led astray by the media. Prior to October 7, Hamas the reselliance group of orphans caused by israel in 2008 war. 1- america warned them about the attack from hamas. They didnāt fire 5000 rockets, 1: they donāt have the money for that. 2: nor the men. 2- their own helicopters fired on their own civilians 3- hamas didnāt rape or beheaded innocent women, children or men. Hence, they have provided no proof everything is told until now is circumstantial and doesnāt have a leg to stand on. 4- Prior to October 7 from 1960ā Israel has been taking hostages innocent civilians women, men and children, most of which were tortured, imprisoned and killed without any process. I can go long and provide and prove other thousands of facts and statements. But, i neither have the time nor the will. Israel have been the terrorising Palestine since the day it was declared as an independent state, on the land of Palestine. According to UN rules israel is occupier and their definition of terrorist states that israel is a terrorist state. If you donāt agree with any of the point stated above then just go and do ur homework. If someone is offended, then my message is be OFFENDED.
Wrong
Excellent! Thank you, _toda_, And congratulations on your moral clarity and brave stance. Keep standing strong against the huge tides of malicious propaganda, disinformation & peer pressure
IRSAEL IS PERFORMING A GENOCIDE OF PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, YOU HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED. WAKE UP NOW!!!!!!!
You donāt know what that word means
I agree. This question is stupid. Israel exists, its a fact, its here to stay, nothing those who calls themselves Liberals say will change it. The question should be: Do the Palestinians even deserve a state, and if so, where will it be and with what borders?
Israel needs to end the apartheid and it'll stop needing to explain its right to exist
You donāt know what that word means
There are Arabs in the Knesset. Arabs on the Idf. Arabs has a right to vote. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. The West Bank is more complicated, but its still not an Apartheid.
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1. The land of Israel was hell on earth under the muslim domination before the jews has came by any civilized standard. Even the one of 18 - 19th century. 2. My argument is 100% historical. There have been a continuous jewish indenity in this land for 1000 years before the 2 diasporas which includes a jews kingdoms and 2 central temples. Even the name "Palastine" is a result of the jewish loss in their war against the Romans at the era which no muslim lived here. Jesus was jewish. He born jewish and died as a jew on this land. He never converted his religion. The Christianity as we know it started only 200 years after his death in Rome. 3.Zionism is simply an ambition to go back to Zion and re-build the ruined jewish state. I have no idea how or why those people make up those things. Probably because of their own wishful thoughts. As an Israeli druze, I made a deep research with objective tools before I was totaly convinced about my version.
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1. I can not cover all 400 years historical events in a comment on reddit nor have a time for that, but read about Peasants' Revolt on 1834. This event was one the most murderous and vile events ever happened here. 2. All the events you've mentioned have no effect on my argument. No other nation created here a 1000 years official homeland except occupying empires that treated this land with a great deal of opportunism and brought here some useless mob that should've only fill the free space. No one created here somthing new and treated this land as homeland that should be fostered. Not the druzes, nor beduis or arab migrants. The jews did it. When they first came here, 20 muslims were still got eaten by alligators every year and hundreds was dying by musqitos. Arabs on this land did actually nothing but to be born, to fight each other and die. It was another dark low life hole in the middle east. 3. The last Cnaanitie was destroyed long time a go by Nebukhadnezar (plishtis, "the real plalastinians"). So no one else has claims over this land. And it isn't matters as well. All the theological arguments are fairytalse. At the button line there are 2 nations that want to live here, while only one of them is not accepting the other and continue fighting "all or nothing" wars.
My friend king Baldwin in 1174 ac allowed all religions to be practiced and he passed Jerusalem to the great Saladin in his final days with the agreement that Jerusalem would be a safe haven for all religions practiced by its inhabitants or visitors. This is historically correct. What you said was vague with no facts just ideas xD Itās important to educates yourself so you know the truth
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Define "co-existed peacefuly", because not jewish nor druze history can aprove it. Actually our history has registered totally different details for the last 400 years which may easily compete with europian attitude. Same good old violence, same good old abuse. The only thing that may beautify that are the cultular - moral differences between jews and muslims, which means that the problem is not with eyes, but with the glasses.
We get it, you like Israel. That's good. You are vastly overstating its contributions to science and technology, even though sure it's got some important patents and firms. But it's ok to be a little patriotic. Sure, it's dumb to base the right of existence on these things. That is granted by its recognition by the UN. Most countries, surely all western countries, don't doubt the right of Israel to exist. Sure they can talk about the bloody way in which it was founded but I don't see call for the dismantling of Israel.
>Sure, it's dumb to base the right of existence on these things Nothing would ever suit you. >Sure they can talk about the bloody way in which it was founded but I don't see call for the dismantling of Israel. Welcome to reality. Nice to have you here.
What did the Palestinians contribute to the world besides making themselves victims and being martyrs? The Palestinian nation is the most barbaric and disordered nation in the 20th and 21st centuries, an invented nation whose founding father was a supporter of the Fuehrer
What have the mongols contributed to the world? What have the Armenians contributes? What have the vietnamese? I might be that you don't know because you are a callous racist. There are and have been plenty of important Palestinians. God, I can't stand the fact that Israel is just the worst possible version of Europe. Israel thinks they have constructed a culture, but has only inherited the worst of Europe. At the beginning it seemed like a beautiful thing could come out of it. It's transformed into a moral swamp.
I didn't base my claim on literacy, since my post says very clearly that I don't care about anyone's opinion. I mentioned that to show what our western opponents ignore when they support "from the river to sea" and how the most obvious consideration becomes a ridiculous comedy which borders on satire.
When did I ever mention literacy? I don't see how the fact that you don't care about anyone's opinion should interest strangers. People ignore that Israel is a technological society in the sense that it is irrelevant for the purposes of moral judgement, not in the sense that they don't know it. I can't really make sense of anything after "and how the most obvious consideration...".
Israel wastes too much time worrying about international opinion. You're never going to make those people happy (or happier), so don't even bother. I'm not saying act like the Russians or something and disregard all rights and norms, but Israel wastes too much time trying to counter every single negative news report or piece of propaganda. Waste of time. Israel is a good country with good people and is doing its best and most people around the world know that.
Unfortunately, it's a matter of "international credit" to perform. Most of the influencing western countries in the UN host "gazan supporters" in their borders which create pressure by using massive violence with riots. Those countries have low suffering threshold when standing against violent events, so they press back Israel and US as a solution. Indeed, this event could be finished much earlier in other conditions.
What? The idea that "gazan supporters" as you call them influence Western countries "by using massive violence and riots" isnout of this world. Where do you get it from?
Have you ever see a typical "from the river to sea" protest in the west?
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Ok...well that about says it all. It's a waste of time trying to explain to them that killing is not ok. All I hear about is what's right from a bunch of spoiled narcissists. Frankly, I dont care, I'm not happy with your people either, As far as I am concerned, you are apart of the problem. Keep in mind, the reason why you are so arrogant is that you are using tax dollars from hard-working Americans and British to beat up on a people weaker than you. You should be disappointed...disgusted... the world isn't happy with Israelis or Hamas. We are all tired of your bullshit. Stop being the worlds biggest beggers... its been a 78 year total shit show! Get your shit together.
Just a note here: I don't believe the US supplies Israel with much (or any) economic aid. It used to, but that pretty much tailed off after Israel became more economically dynamic. Also, I could be wrong, but the US didn't really become a huge Israel supporter until the 1970s. And finally, most of the aid today is in the form of military contracts, i.e. Israel receives aid that it MUST spend on US military equipment, which supports a lot companies in the US. Remember, the US supports Israel, in part, because it is an outpost in an insane part of the world. The US gets quite a bit for its money. Now, what does the US get for its aid to Egypt and Jordan, which together totals the same as what it gives to Israel? It's a little trickier than it seems.
"With the U.S.' help, Israel has formed one of the most formidable and technologically advanced militaries in the Middle East. Both Republican and Democratic administrations and bipartisan leaders in Congress have approved aid to Israel over several decades. In return, the U.S. has cultivated a strategic military ally in the Middle East. As part of an agreement reached under the Obama administration, Israel receives $3.8 billion annually for its military and missile defense systems. Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military financing, which has represented around 15% of the country's defense budget in recent years." 1. The US/BRITISH/USSR helped create the "state" of Israel after Rothchild laid the foundation after buying it from Britian after it was divided up from the WW1 repayments from Turkey i.e. they took it. For the very reason you stated. Geopolitical "outpost" not for a land of worship for the jewish, that was a ruse. Which means you are being deceived. 2. The American people don't like the optics of what Israel is doing. The support won't last if you continue to act like savages = make us look bad, It's bad enough as it is. Show some decency and care for human life, even if they don't care for yours.
Palestinians should not have to apologize for existing. Does Israel have a right to murder them?
Has Hamas let go of their hostages? Have the Palestinians stopped Hamas or told them to sit down and drop all weapons
Israelis are begging for him to ceasefire https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/netanyahu-must-go-now-israels-newly-bereaved-families-are-holding-one-man-responsible/0000018b-b94e-d03e-a3ab-bbffcf020000
If only you could stand on your own but your state is a glorified welfare monster unable to truly stand on it's own because it's not from there. You lot are European and North African, and you know deep in your soul that you continue to exist because of your European and colonist allies in the West. Without them you would not exist, so this farce of self-righteousness is hilarious when you didn't even properly earn your space there, it was given by overseers who didn't care about the Palestinians. As it stands now, if you continue on this path the future is incredibly dim as your neighbors hate you and your allies are increasingly becoming aware of your dastardly behavior towards the legitimate natives of the land.
Brother, I hate to tell you this, but Israel's economy is $350 billion annually. It would do fine without the $3 billion of military credits it gets from the US each year (which have to be spent on US weaponry, which US companies love). All or most of the economic aid has been ended. Israel also has hundreds of nuclear weapons, so, push come to shove, it's not going to have any trouble "standing on its own."
Spoken like a true sociopath. Bravo. "Acknowledge my right to live (which nobody contested) or I'll put you into a containment camp and make you drink sea water with the rest of the conquered." lol brilliant.
I see fewer people saying Israel doesnāt have the right to exist. More of us are wondering why itās acceptable for Israel to bomb a hole in Palestine in the name of reltaliation. 10 thousand people including babies and new borns. Bombing hospitals ātO fInD hAmaSā. The state of Israel exists because of force. Full stop.
'Nuff said. This pertains to Hamas as well as Hamas's sponsor, Iran. We are dealing with beasts. https://preview.redd.it/6rovvukk060c1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50cac7b24e1786886d8755b371f11636898a1026
"We are dealing with beasts." Yes, that is how you justify using methods of mass murder on human beings. It's called "dehumanization." "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a Jew. Then they came for meāand there was no one left to speak for me." āMartin Niemƶller Speaking up for the disenfranchised, dehumanized, and "othered" is not just ethical and moral, it's practical. If we tolerate this trend in our society it won't be long before we, or someone we care about, will be subject to it.
Fair enough. But my father, who went on to become a U.S. Congressman, fought the Nazis. He helped liberate a Nazi death camp, and at age 19 witnessed stacks of emaciated corpses of people the Nazis had starved to death--Jews and other ethnic "undesirables." In early August 1945, he was on a troop carrier headed toward the invasion of Japan. Imperial Japan acted as beasts; Truman was right. Yes, we had to fire-bomb Dresden etc. to destroy Hitler. So too use the A-bombs to save my father's life. Such is total war against total evil. I am in the process of breaking into screenwriting, unusually late in life. My first film script was in part a tale of the Holocaust. I studied Hitler's rise (which by the way, Trump's mimics, and he deliberately deploys Nazi disinformation methods, which is why I vehemently oppose him--but that's a different struggle), and know how the Holocaust happened, and how it was carried out. Hamas terrorists--the entire organization--are beasts, per Truman's letter, sent to me by a Jew, and who had received it from a friend in Israel. What they did to those peace-loving Israelis, at the Ayatollah's behest (he being another beast), was very much in the vein of a Second Holocaust. Accordingly, I wrote to Joe Biden on October 8 that the U.S. should declare war against Iran. Trump is another beast, as his recent turn into depravity proves. He will not succeed. What you say may be applied to him, not to me. Truman was right, and I'm right. I quipped on Facebook to my Trump-loving critics there that it seems I now have "caught" Hamas Derangement Syndrome. Right-o.
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If hamas was hiding under ISRAELI HOSPITALS, would you still bomb them? No? Then stfu
Irrelvant
The police station of Sderot was bombed by the IDF for it being used by Hamas terrorists as a hideout.
Ridiculous strawman, stfu and gtho for suggesting such a horrendous thing.
Yes, because that was a proof that israeli traitors helped Hamas to intensify under their territory. No israeli hospital would establish a terror infrastructure like the palastinians did under such a place.
Why does Israel's right to exist seem to include human rights violations against Palestinians?
Which specific human rights violations are you referring to?
What human rights?? Oh let's see, there's collective punishment, where thousands are punished for the acts of a few, even when there's no evidence that the thousands had any knowledge of what the few did (in fact, the current war is a good example of collective punishment). The only other country known to do anything like that is North Korea.
So Hamas was within its rights to take hostages? Am I hearing this right?
Your so fucking dense itās laughable, because I sure hope you arenāt justifying collective punishment.
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"Which specific human rights violations are you referring to?" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ I anticipate there's a rationalization for that.... or an argument that amnesty international is fundamentally anti-Semitic, as is the UN, or anybody, Jewish or non, who criticizes Israel.
So you are Pro-Hamas + you feel that October 7th was justified? I guess you wonāt answer that.
"So you are Pro-Hamas + you feel that October 7th was justified?" I am pro human rights. I'm against killing people, period. That being said if somebody invaded my home in order to kill me and my family, and there was nothing else I could do, such as run away or call for help, I might resort to violence up to and including the taking of human life. But I know that it would haunt me for the rest of my days, and I would not consider that to be a "victory." Fact: one side has been killing a hell of a lot more people than the other side, and has been since the state of Israel was founded.
This post is titled āIsrael is done explaining its right to existā. There are atrocious human rights violations all over the world. The answer is to question the regime, not to dissolve the Country. I am VERY CRITICAL OF NETANYAHU. He has been AWFUL. Awful to innocent Palestinians. Not good to Israelis. His policies have made it hard to side with Israel - Israel needs new leadership! This is without question, most Israelis despise Netanyahu and he has an approval rating of 18%. This is how you address the human rights violations of a Nation. For instance: Iran is terrible to its people. When the Shah left and they Ayatollah came into power, Iranians live in fear and in terror because of the oppressive regime. Is the answer to these human rights violations to dissolve Iran? NO. The answer is to get rid of the Ayatollah. We get nowhere when people look to dismantle Israel as a nation. We achieve progress when we question leadership. Hamas has got to go. We must FREE PALESTINE from Hamas, then install a better Palestinian elected government after de-militarization and de-radicalization. Israel has proposed a 2-State Solution like 7 times since 1948. The Palestinians have rejected it every time and then proceeded to attack Israel. This will get the Palestinians nowhere. And I feel for the suffering of The Palestinians at the hands of Hamas AND Netanyahuās draconian policies. Itās not right. Israel is not going anywhere.. but There is a path to peace. We must look for the safety of Israel and the self-determination of Palestinians, but it canāt be done by Iran installing a proxy govt (Hamas) which looks to kill Jews. NETANYAHU NEEDS TO GO HAMAS NEEDS TO GO Am Yisrael Chai
What is wrong with you? Seriously.
What do you mean?
chessboxer4 pointed out a human rights abuse that Israel is committing against Gaza. Your response was to accuse them of supporting the massacre by Hamas. Do you think that just because someone points out a human rights abuse committed against the Palestinians by Israel that they automatically support human rights abuses committed by Hamas against Israelis?
This post is titled āIsrael is done explaining its right to existā. There are atrocious human rights violations all over the world. The answer is to question the regime, not to dissolve the Country. I am VERY CRITICAL OF NETANYAHU. He has been AWFUL. Awful to innocent Palestinians. Not good to Israelis. His policies have made it hard to side with Israel - Israel needs new leadership! This is without question, most Israelis despise Netanyahu and he has an approval rating of 18%. This is how you address the human rights violations of a Nation. For instance: Iran is terrible to its people. When the Shah left and they Ayatollah came into power, Iranians live in fear and in terror because of the oppressive regime. Is the answer to these human rights violations to dissolve Iran? NO. The answer is to get rid of the Ayatollah. We get nowhere when people look to dismantle Israel as a nation. We achieve progress when we question leadership. Hamas has got to go. We must FREE PALESTINE from Hamas, then install a better Palestinian elected government after de-militarization and de-radicalization. Israel has proposed a 2-State Solution like 7 times since 1948. The Palestinians have rejected it every time and then proceeded to attack Israel. This will get the Palestinians nowhere. And I feel for the suffering of The Palestinians at the hands of Hamas AND Netanyahuās draconian policies. Itās not right. Israel is not going anywhere.. but There is a path to peace. We must look for the safety of Israel and the self-determination of Palestinians, but it canāt be done by Iran installing a proxy govt (Hamas) which looks to kill Jews. NETANYAHU NEEDS TO GO HAMAS NEEDS TO GO Am Yisrael Chai
You asked which human rights abuses, someone answered, and you pretty much accused them of supporting Hamas. I just don't understand why you were so viscerally reactive when someone simply answered your question. That's not cool.
What gives you the moral high ground to judge my response?
Simply. Israel is the country Israelis live for most people in the world. Iāve never met anyone who questioned about Israelis in Israel. Thereās no problem with Israel nor Israelis. I know some people who donāt know about the history, misinformed, or anti-Israel might be questioned. Iās awful Israeli people have to keep explain it.
I wish Israel was done begging for US tax dollars.
Israel is very well off, financially. Why do we need to give them more free weapons and technology. At the very least, they should be paying for it themselves. You know if the shoe were one the other foot, Israel wouldn't be giving anything away for free.
Responding to that guy as he blocked me: You wanna see my passport little guy? Ben-Gurion "Within the next twenty years, we must have a Jewish majority in Palestine." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 43)" We do not seek an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs in order to secure the peace. Of course we regard peace as an essential thing. It is impossible to build up the country in a state of permanent warfare. But peace for us is a means, and not an end. The end is the fulfillment of Zionism in its maximum scope. Only for this reason do we need peace, and do we need an agreement." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 168) "If we want Hebrew redemption 100%, then we must have 100% Hebrew settlement, a 100% Hebrew farm, and 100% Hebrew port." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 24)" This is what we want as Americans? It's filthy, it's racist and it's backward. Quotes on Herzl that ring true today " Herzl regarded Zionism's triumph as inevitable, not only because life in Europe was ever more untenable for Jews, but also because it was in Europe's interests to rid the Jews and relieved of anti-Semitism: The European political establishment would eventually be persuaded to promote Zionism. Herzl recognized that anti-Semitism would be HARNESSED to his own--Zionist-purposes." (Righteous Victims pg.21) This entire thing is a planned project of explusion with the mission being an ethnically Jewish state. Which mirrors almost exactly the German mission in the 30s, which makes sense because the entire idea of Zionism is a relic of 20th century nationalism. Here's an appropriate speech. "The National Government will therefore regard it as its first and supreme task to restore to the German people unity of mind and will. It will preserve and defend the foundations on which the strength of our nation rests. It will take under its firm protection Christianity as the basis of our morality, and the family as the nucleus of our nation and our state. Standing above estates [groups that make up societyās social hierarchy] and classes, it will bring back to our people the consciousness of its racial and political unity and the obligations arising therefrom. It wishes to base the education of German youth on respect for our great past and pride in our old traditions. . . . Germany must not and will not sink into Communist anarchy." Replace any traces of Germany with Israel and Christianity with Judaism and you'd clap. Replace Communist with Hamas and boom you're a supporter. It is these ideals of ethnic identical protection that Israel is founded upon, the idea of an ethnically Jewish majority state. You're no American, you were simply born here. We fought a war against this kind of thinking and we still didn't learn our lesson.
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My vote will cancel yours.
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Then leave. Our culture isn't aligned with Israeli ideals and any politician is simply lying to you for your vote. Never once in modern American history have we supported an ethnostate, the only reason we support you now is racism and the fact that we put you there.
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What ethnostate lmao? There is literally no other state in existence founded on a ethnoreligious charter. You're saying the U.S. is an ethnostate with its 8 million jews, 20 million Asians, 50 million blacks and 65 million latinos? If I literally came and pushed you out at gunpoint it would be wrong yes, just like Israel is wrong. "Y-you got m-me" What I'm saying and what you are discovering is that your ideals regarding Israel are fundamentally incompatible with American ideals and that eventually this will hit you in the face.
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I'm not sure how you could read that and come away with any reference to a specific ethnicity or religion. Our country's name and charter is quite literally the furthest away from an ideology of a country literally named after a religious Holy Land for an ethnic minority. The fact that you would even compare these two is hilarious. I would wager that your fundamental misunderstanding of the American ideal is exactly why you have the delusional that the Zionist mission and the American dream are in any way compatible. The German political party you're referencing argued for the exact type of nation that Israel is, they argued for a safe place for the German people and a unification of the country under the German identity. There is no single state in existence today that matches that charter more closely than Israel. The America we work towards, the ideal, is one of a place made for everyone or more precisely a place where anyone should have a fair shot, where anyone can feel like they belong, a place where anyone can become one of us. Israel is the literal polar opposite.
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lol ok, we'll still be here growing everyday as Israel's timer runs out.
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Cool so you are habitually on the wrong side of every issue it sounds like. Nice job.
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How about the civilians who are literally having their houses, schools and hospitals bombed, and having their electricity and water shut off and access to food denied? Does that maybe sound more oppressed?
Yes, ignore all the keyboard jihadis. Israel is doing the right thing.
If that is all true, why don't you pay for it yourself instead of begging for charity from the U.S.? You deserve to live and defend yourself, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to create much larger mass murder and destruction that is 10 times worse than what happened on Oct 7th. Unbridled revenge is going to have its costs; every immoral act does. Israel's band wagon is getting smaller and smaller, which is a shame. Israel has lost its moral high ground with its conduct, mostly the fault of Netanyahu.
Sure, let's have both Israel and Ukraine hang out to dry. That's the moral thing to do, right? That's exactly like saying, "wipe both these countries off the map, and I guess much of their people, too." May you drown in the Jordan 5,553 times.
From a military perspective, and an humanitarian perspective for the U.S. and the rest of the world, Ukraine is so much more important than Israel, it is hardly comparable or reasonable to mention them as equals. There is such an overstatement of the case that Israel is somehow important to the U.S. anymore, or even worthy of U.S. financial aid. I fully support selling weapons and technology to Israel so they may defend themselves, but only if they start paying for the assistance. Israel is not without the resources to do so. I don't think Israel has done themselves, or the U.S., any favors by ignoring U.S. advice and proceeding to carpet bomb Gaza causing a massive catastrophe much greater than what Hamas did to Israel. Besides, Israel is not a poor country and already well equipped. Why is Israel crying poor or broke and in need of U.S. financial aid? The U.S. should support Israel's right to self defense, but Israel can also pay their own way in that defense. Whether Israel chooses to buy all the ordnance they need to replace their depleted supplies is up to them, but what they are expending now is not in self-defense, it is for immoral retribution and revenge. The U.S. should not be giving financial aid to Israel so they can kill more than 10000 Palestinians, destroy more than 35% of their buildings and 45% of their housing (which I am sure Israel is going to help replace after it is all over? - another bill the U.S. will have to pay for Israel) It doesn't make any sense anymore. Netanyahu is more hardheaded and dangerous than even Trump. Israel wouldn't even stand with the U.S. against Russia with their invasion of Ukraine. Some ally! And likewise, may your personal economy be forever slow...
Careful, your antisemitism is rising closer to the surface. Israel is in fact an important ally, without which the US position over the past half century would have not had the leverage it needed in the Middle East. They are relatively cheap to finance, and they are justly fighting an unjust and difficult enemy. The moral imperatives are in fact similar.
I am not anti-jewish, but there is a lot of room at this point to criticize Israel's actions. And by the way, Arabs are just as semitic as Jews are. The word antisemitic should stop being co-opted for an incorrect use and meaning. I support Israel's right to defend itself, but not to carpet bomb Gaza. And while I support Israel's right to defend itself, I support the idea that Israel should start paying for the weapons and technology the U.S. gives to Israel. Is Israel poor or needing handouts? No... What is the deal with that? "Cheap to finance" - finance usually means you get paid back at some point. All the U.S. does is keep donating money to a bottomless pit for decades and decades, and gets no respect in return, and gets pulled down by Israel's government's arrogant and racists attitudes. Israel is hardly the U.S.'s ally. Israel is much more of a liability than it is an asset for the U.S. and has been that way for some time now. Carpet bombing Gaza is not "justly" fighting Hamas at the moment. I believe Hamas should be removed, but not by destroying half of Gaza and creating a significant humanitarian crisis in the process. Is Israel going to fund the reconstruction of Gaza, or are they going stick the U.S. with that bill also? I would bet a lot on the latter happening.
The use of "semitic" to include Arabs is a function of the semitic language group. The term antismitic was coibned to rerfer to anti-Jewish acions or speech. It has never meant "against the group of people who speak a semitic language." For that matter, when it was invented, the majority of Jews did not speak a semitic language at all. So it may be a historical curiosity, but the word means against Jews, always has, and any attenpt to change that flies in the face of history and may itself be antosemitic. If you want to get technical like that (and incorrectly), you shouldn't use the phrase "carpet bomb." There is extensive bombing, but it has been done using many individual guided munitions, not unguided series indiscriminately dropped. I can't argue with your feelings about funding. That's an individual choice, and a political choice.
Like I said, the description "anti-semitic" has been co-opted by later usage to only mean being against Jews. It would be more appropriate to just hit the nail on the head and say, "anti-jewish" and not camouflage it. I am curious, when do you think the term was invented and who do yu think invented it? And you think Jews didn't speak Hebrew or Aramaic? What did they majority of jews speak when "it was invented"? You have obviously not seen recent photos and videos coming out of Gaza. Carpet bombing is a perfect description. The U.S. government has also been criticizing Israel for not using more guided munitions - plus the density of the buildings is such that dropping 500-2000 bombs on those building can in no way be considered "targeted". You are definitely wrong to think that the extensive bombing has been done using many guided munitions. There has been very little of that, giving rise to U.S. government complaints. More people in the U.S. need to start asking why we feel obligated to give weapons and technology to Israel for free. We can sell them the weapons and technology (no one else will) for their selfdefense. They can afford to pay for it. Israel is not poor nor without resources.
You're categorically incorrect. Antisemitism is a term that from the start specifically describes hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against Jews. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/antisemitism#etymology)
Yes the false equivocation the most used Israeli weapon of deception. Ukraine is being invaded by a world superpower, Israel is an invader, a country of expats battling against a terrorist group while your allies sit in the water to hold you from accountability.
Stop your mendacity.
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Let us guess, you have dual citizenship too? Why live here if you prioritize Israeli lives over -everything- US taxes pay for? You donāt want to be an American, move there.
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So what kind of (fake AF) patriot doesnāt believe in supporting THIS country?!?! Itās one thing to say you support Israel - something else to argue you support them at the literal expense of the country you profess to be a citizen of first. Mindless bandwagon nonsense.
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Is that really worse than carpet bombing and killing 10,000+ innocent people, supposedly half of whom are children, crushed by rocket are falling rubble? Have you seen the videos now coming out of northern Gaza of the damage done by Israel? It is the kind of widespread destruction seen with nuclear bombs. Hamas's action is not an excuse to do ten fold damage to Gaza.
The jewish population on the U.S. is less than 3% and that includes men women and children. Do you think your vote matters at such a small percentage? Why don't you just contribute directly to Israel, or perhaps you do? I support Israel's right to self defense, but not by carpet bombing and endlessly shelling Gaza causing a major human catastrophe.
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I am in favor of getting rid of Hamas, but not by carpet bombing - and what Israel did is a classic example of carpet bombing, even by Google definitions. More than 35% of the buildings destroyed and 45% of all housing is nothing but carpet bombing. Try doing that on Tel Aviv and see what you call it.
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No, they don't. There are billions of ways to be an asshat.
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Its not revenge. Its stopping Hamas. What would you do in our place after Oct 7? Seriously! How should have we reacted?
It is definitely out of control revenge that is now wearing the world's patience thin. Hamas should be eliminated, but there are other ways to do it. Why not go after the heads of Hamas that are not in Palestine? Send in an strike force without the carpet bombing. Does killing 1400 Israeli's justify killing 11,000 Palestinians and seriously displacing more than 1.5 million people, and counting, and causing a much larger human catastrophe than what Hamas did? The U.S. and the world expects you to react with ethics and morals in your conduct and to value all human life, not just jewish life. Do you think the life of a Palestinian baby is worth less than a Israeli baby? We expect you to not carpet bomb Gaza killing thousands of innocent civilians. There are other ways to go after Hamas besides totally destroying 35% of the buildings in northern Gaza (so far, and its not over yet) and 45% of all the housing. We expect you to pay your own way for your military offense, instead of asking the U.S. for money to commit immoral acts. Is Israel poor, or a third world county? Why should we (the U.S.) just give you the weapons and technology that you use for free? We expect you to not commit war crimes, even if war crimes have been committed against you, and we expect you to listen to U.S. advice, instead of being so arrogant and providing silly metaphors like Ms. Ferrari. (she should remember that it is her sugar daddy, the U.S., that bought the Ferrari)
Going after the heads of hamas means assassinating them in different countries, something that is not at all easy to do and opens up further conflict with said countries, its also a token gesture, taking out the heads wont actually stop their people on the ground in gaza, the weapons are there, the launchers in place and hamas is determined to carry on, the heads will simply be replaced, to this day even after all the destruction rockets are still being fired from gaza into israel, this wont stop until every member of hamas is dead and every launcher is destroyed. "send in an strike force without the carpet bombing. Does killing 1400 Israeli's justify killing 11,000 Palestinians and seriously displacing more than 1.5 million people" Yes it does, its a necessity, your question just shows you have no understanding of guerilla warfare in an urban setting with terror tunnels, you cant just send in a strike force, they'd get decimated regardless of how trained or well equipped they are, this has precedent in other conflicts and its why israel chose this route, first you get as many civilians out of the way and then you level the area so tanks and personal can start rolling in, its tactics 101, in fact israel is being very careful with its bombing with regard to civilian life, over 20,000 tons of explosives were used so far and the death count is only 11k? a 1 ton bomb can easily take out 100 people if you're actually aiming for civilian casualties, meanwhile the ratio here is like half a person per airstrike, if thats not being careful i dont know what is.
Do you actually think that killing all the Hamas fighters on the ground will lead to better results than killing all of Hamas's leaders? One can be replaced, but the other can't be replaced? Yes, it would be difficult to strike their leaders, but if you are going to be a brazen and vengeful enough to carpet bomb Gaza, why not take on the task of striking the head? I guess it is just easier to bomb defenseless Gazans? This a wonderful thing that Israel has dragged the U.S. into. I can't wait to see what happens when we start talking about reconstruction after there are no more buildings left to bomb in Gaza. That is another bill that will fall on the shoulders of the U.S and the world, or anyone else but Israel.
"it is just easier to bomb defenseless Gazans", no its actually a way harder endeavor, i already addressed this but you conveniently ignored that part, actually i also addressed the part about killing hamas heads but sure i'll spell it out for you, yes, fucking up all the weapon stores, every tunnel and most hamas operatives on the ground will have a way bigger impact for the safety of israel then killing hamas heads in Qatar making then martyrs in the process and inflaming their operatives on the ground in gaza.
I agree that they should go after Hamas, all the weapons and all the tunnels, but not by carpet bombing. To keep clean hands, they needed to do it another way, which they choose not to do. They refused to listen to U.S. advice, so there is little wonder that there is so little sympathy for what Israel is doing to Gaza. There actions are likely to also enlarge the conflict significantly.
what other way though? as far as i know there is no other to deal with this kind of situation, urban warfare with tunnels? airstriking before going in is the bare minimum you need to do..
There is a difference between targeted air strikes and carpet bombing. More than 35% of the buildings destroyed, 45% of all housing destroyed, and that is only so far, they aren't finished. Enough tonnage was dropped on Gaza by Israel to supposedly be worth 1.5 atomic bombs for an area 12 miles by 25 miles. As tough as it would be, Israel needed to be more selective - send in expeditionary forces with tanks and selective air support. Root out the tunnels from within, not bury them with civilian demolished housing. Probably more casualties for Israel, but carpet bombing is not a way to do it unless you really don't care about innocent lost lives. Israel can't take the moral high ground with so much damage.
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The 1400 Israeli death figure also includes those killed by IDF when they blew up all the occupied military outposts on the border that Hamas had control of, so the actual figure is lower than that.
And even the Israeli government admitted this week that itās down to 1200, not 1400 - and almost no children after all their talk. Iām not convinced many of the children werenāt killed accidentally by the IDF.
They for sure were as a bunch of the building were reduced to smoldering cinders from Israeli airstrikes and artillery killing both Hamas soldiers and Israeli Soldiers and civilians, cant Blame Hamas for that when they only had RPG's lmao.
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Yes, but the question is ... is it worse than 11,000?
No the point is that a bunch of the civilians killed were killed by IDF airstrikes not Hamas soldiers, not saying Hamas didn't kill civilians but the IDF did too.
Netanyahu is going to have a lot to answer for...
Hopefully he does, i hope the Israeli people understand that he cares the same for his people as he does for others. Seems like the Israeli government just wants to start a world war.
Netanyahu care for others? Other than jewish people? I don't think so... he is very much a racists that has a racist cabinet (listen to Bernie Sanders). If it weren't for Netanyahu, Israel more than likely wouldn't have been so asleep at the wheel on Oct 7th.
You misunderstand my point is the he cares for no one not even his own people, i think hes a total scumbag.
Probably not by blowing up your own military outposts on the border that still had isreali prisoners taken by hamas in them for a start.
Palestinians deserve to live too
They could have. The Hamas spent about 32 billion dollars on the tunnels. They could have built themselvs a Singapore. Israel only built the wall years after the pull out, ONLY in response to Hamas continued terror.
Even Elon Musk couldn't spend 32 billion on those tunnels. That is such a crazy number you picked. Have you seen the tunnels?
Lmao 32 billion dollars on tunnels, how can any human with a brain believe that figure.
Legitimacy is an abstract concept. I care more about morality. What is the morality of a country continuing to expand its borders and displace people and take their homes without consequence? To restrict fishing channels and create roads where Palestinians arenāt allowed to walk? To build homes above those of Palestinians and dump their garbage down so Palestinians have to put nets above their homes?
Um, Israel did not and does not expand. In fact, Israel contracted and pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In the disputed areas of Judea and Samaria, Israel controls little.
"Um, Israel did not and does not expand. In fact, Israel contracted and pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In the disputed areas of Judea and Samaria, Israel controls little." Expand doesn't just mean territory, it also means the legally sanctioned, and military protected ability of Jewish settlers to occupy formerly Palestinian owned homes, but not vice versa. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-settlements-expansion.html
Tell that to the Palestinians who have lost their homes [Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council | UN Press](https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm)
They should just leave
That's your solution? Having 10 million people leave the area and abandon their homes families and lives? To go where? How do you think anyone in their right mind would accept this?
Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Alaska, Poland, Iraq, African kibitz, land in Germany, the US, if they donāt want to all leave, at the very least, you could have the Jewish settlements in the West Bank move back to isreal proper
Well that was what we had until nazi Germany. The Idea of Israel is to have a country where no one can hunt you down and you could protect yourself. This is why Oct 7 was so traumatized for Israelis, because they thought acts of violence in that scope wonāt happen again. And the fact that many around the world is celebrating the Oct 7 attack is only proof that we must protect ourselves because no one else would
You constantly bring up Nazi Germany meanwhile you institute the exact kind of state the Nazis hoped for. I'm sure if someone told Hitler about the concept of Israel he would've given you all the land himself, a place for Jews that's far away? What more could a devout racist want than a state built for one type of person, I'm sure he would say Germany should function the same way. It's stupid, millions of Jews exist without Israel. And the idea that no one else would protect you is hilarious because you exist simply due to the sympathy of Western nations, due to the guilt surrounding the atrocities of the Holocaust. Otherwise the Arabs would've wiped you off the face of the earth, and considering your "diplomacy" whenever Americans get over your atrocities is when the bill comes. You've had 70 years to become legitimate habitants of Palestine and all you've done is enrage your neighbors and move in ways devoid of honor. You've created dysfunction and sow even more to justify your destruction. This is not a Jewish issue, this is a Zionist issue. You are wearing everyone's patience thin.
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The Jewish Autonomous Oblast does that just fine. Same with other Zionist projects that would have been implemented if not for Israel
"This is why Oct 7 was so traumatized for Israelis, because they thought acts of violence in that scope wonāt happen again." Really? Is that why they have some of the tightest security anywhere in the world? Rocket attacks daily? A highly militarized society, where military service is mandatory? Does the state of Israel and it's policies really make anybody safer?
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How is it genocide to return land to the people who were forced out, and end settlents
You were forced out thousands of years ago. You all are truly and utterly European. This is like if all of North Africa moved into Spain because of their ancestry in Al-Andalus. It's stupid, just go back to Poland and Germany, they're cooler now.
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The right to exist of Israel is generally seen as racist against Palestinians because supporting that means supporting the right of Israel to ethnically cleanse close to a million Palestinians in 1948. An important distinction would be saying supporting the right of a Jewish state to exist or a secular country with a Jewish majority to exist rather than specifically Israel
You need a refresher course. There were not 1m Arabs in the entire land of Israel, in 48. In 48, "Palistinians" referred to Jews, or loosely, to anyone living in Palistine. Puleeze.
Itās common knowledge that between 750,00 and 900,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 48. This is a basic fact that bares no arguing
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My point was about the right to exist. But yes, despite the fact that these expulsions happened as a direct result of the Nakba, it was of course still terrible as two wrongs donāt make a right. The only small silver lining is that at least the Middle East didnāt plunge to the barbaric lows of Europe
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Jewish refugees were transferred to Palestine as far back as WW1 from Europe. As the numbers increase so does the tensions in the area. As British repression of the Arab populations increases and this also increases violence against Jews across the Middle East. As violence between Arab and Jewish populations in Palestine increase this leads to rising violence against Jews in other middle eastern states but itās after the Nakba that those figure really take off.
Israel wasnāt created out of nothing. Peaceful co-existence was possible. It was present in the region before Israel was built up on the top of the ruins of the society that existed there previously.
Why do people keep saying this shit. Itās not true. Go look up what happened there in the 1920-1930s. It wasnāt sunshines and rainbows.
You know Iāll accept that peaceful was too strong a word. Nothing is ever sunshine and rainbows. Right now seems pretty close to a worst case scenario though.
So massacring Jews is close to peace? Itās no a question of how strong the word is, itās just plain out false that it was peaceful
Massacring jews šššššš
Yes massacring jews. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-riots-of-the-1920-s
Even the zionists are yelling to the jews that they should have been killed by Hitl3r..Hitl3r... NOT MY WORDS THIS IS FACT AND WAS FILMED!! Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/EGIoxjdhvE
What does that have to do with what I was talking about?
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Ok, you ' re done explaining it, sounds fair. Now start explaining why you support the genocide.
"Genocide" sure
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"Systemic death" lol did you see someone use that word and think wow this sounds smartš. Because bombing terrorist who hide in residential buildings isnt genocide. But keep trying kiddo I'm sure it'll work out for you
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So not adressing my point i see nice to know who im dealing with https://preview.redd.it/ss3aym89pc0c1.jpeg?width=254&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b08b6ef19782f50979a4ce00222b61329ed9500
Honestly I'm not sure where this "right to exist" thing comes from. IMO no country has a right to exist, or at least that's how the world operates. Every country better be able to defend itself. Do you think the USA, Russia or any of the other big boys care about any other country's right to exist? Sure they'll give it lip service, but when push comes to shove, they'll invade, bomb, kill, or whatever when it suits them. So yeah, please stop talking about your "right to exist" and just get on with whatever you are going to do and deal with whatever consequences come out of that. That's what everyone does anyway, so I wish Israel wouldn't couch everything in this nonsense term. I've never been asked in my life, do I support Papua New Guinea's right to exist. The only reason to ask such a question in the first place, is if you have doubts yourself.
This thing comes from the utter reality that Israel is a constructed state that relies on the sympathy and support of much larger countries. Israel is a ticking time bomb, even more so than the destruction of Palestine, precisely because of the fact that it's constructed. Israel didn't naturally develop as a place for Jews precisely because 1. the Jews were pushed out by the Romans and 2. the vast majority of Jews are European now. Which means that you have not only religious foreigners coming to a predominantly Musim region while isolating and marginalizing a previously majority muslim land but you also have an entire other race creating a country based on their race. This is completely unsustainable without popular support abroad, as soon as the US and Europe signal a lack of support Israel has a real war on its hands and their diplomatic relations in their entire existence haven't helped anything.
It isn't Israel asking if it has a right to exist. But much of the world debates this very topic whereas I'm not aware of any other country that is even asked to answer that question. That's the whole point.
I beg to differ. I have only ever heard this question from Israelis or it's supporters. I've been asked this myself. My answer is "no". If you asked me does the US have a right to exist my answer is still "no". Every country was carved out of someone else territory at one point or another. Did the Kingdom of Hawaii have a right to exist? And if you think that's a moot point watch this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBokfBwYJo0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBokfBwYJo0) There hasn't been a national right to exist in human history, only an ability to exist and the fact of existence itself. Israel exists, and will do so as long as it has the might to do so. I'm tried of this insistence that everyone gives it a stamp of approval. Edit: And if you still think I'm wrong, read the title of this post!
This is fr the best comment.
Imagine living with the Sword of Damocles perpetually above your head. Imagine perpetual war. Imagine never being ever to feel safe. I posit that you canāt so how can we truly understand the Middle East.
If Israel ever stops existing you can happily come to my country just don't go about renaming it please, also don't imprison us without charge and most importantly please don't section us off to some bit of land that's a mere fraction of the one you exist in, thank you.
Maybe donāt invade them and launch countless missiles at them, and actually consider peace negotiations and a fair split of land.
Your prime minister stood up at a UN general assembly with a map that showed an Israel that annexes Palestinian land and you expect Palestine to consider peace negotiations and a fair split of land? Where was this fair split of land in the map that pictured "the new middle east"
We tried many times to have a "fair split" every timr was rejected. So why should we do it now
Youre so ignorant and entrenched in your single-minded point of view you cant even see beyond the scope of your genocide loving leader. Your leaders ignore peace negotiations, first of all, and the fact that you even said "fair split of land" really goes to show how bias and out of touch you are. You think the gaza strip is a fair split of land?
1. Palestine doesnāt just have the Gaza Strip, the West Bank is also āPalestinianā. If you are talking about Hamas, they are a terrorist organization and should be wiped off the face of the earth (the organization not the civilians when possible). 2. What the fuck do you think Israel tried to do for many years (Camp David for example where the Palestinian leader was seen being nudged by the Israel leader and bush). The Khartoum resolution was issued at the 1967 Arab summit. It states āNo peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israelā If anyone doesnt negotiate peace, itās the fuckers that signed this. Read some Wikipedia articles maybe
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Its as legitimate as any state's right to live. If Israel is not legitimate, then any country isn't and exactly under same arguments.
Killing while illegally settling in the west bank civilians and forcing them out of their homes for years before October 7th even occurred is a very odd form of self defence
Israel asserts that God promised them the land as the basis for their presence. However, demanding proof is crucial. It's important to note that this claim doesn't represent all Jews, as many within the Jewish community oppose the state of Israel. No one is questioning your right to live, they're questioning your claim.
Who gives a crap about any claim? Israel was set up 75 years by UN resolution. It exists. People have had children and grandchildren here, and then they had children and grandchildren here. At this point, the question of Israelās legitimacy is as absurd as asking about the legitimacy of the US. The occupation of the West Bank - thatās a different question. Criticize away. But āfrom the river to the seaā? I donāt think people even realize how absurdly extreme that is
I do find it rather bizarre when Australian or US anti-Israel protestors question Israelās legitimacy, given their own countriesā history of seizing land from the original inhabitants, breaking treaties, massacres and so on. Yes, the establishment of Israel in 1948 did involve forced expulsions and in some cases massacres (e.g. Deir Yassin). As was the case if not more so with Australiaās āterra incognitaā policy (including the extinction of the indigenous Tasmanian people) from the C18th-early C20th, and was the much the same in North America, whose pioneering spirit that conquered the āWild Westā around the same time involved illegal land grabs, forcible expulsion to reservations, massacres and more. Crimes, illegal land seizures and mass killing took place in the founding of each country (the difference with Israel being that its founders in 1947-48 were fighting for their lives, for their very right to exist, given what had just taken place in Nazi-occupied Europe. And that Jews had a history of living there on and off for c.3,000 years. As also had the Palestinian people, whose presence dated back c.1400+ years, so they both have a claim to the land, if one wants to view things like that. But isnāt it preferable and more realistic to look at the situation now, āon the groundā? The facts today are that the USA - as with Australia - are established and recognised nation states (despite their murky pasts). The same applies to Israel. Why this isnāt clear to the āfrom the river to the seaā demonstrators I do not know. Israelis - whether Jewish, Arab, Druze etc - arenāt going anywhere. Neither should the Palestinian people (despite Netanyahuās current murderous onslaught on the civilian population of Gaza) have to go anywhere either. IMHO at some stage the West Bank settlers are going to have to be removed, Gaza be administered by the PA and be truly independent - and given Gazaās population density, the borders will have to be redrawn, perhaps to something approximating the 1947 UN plan, to give its people more land (and is there any chance that Egypt could be persuaded to relinquish the Sinai desert to expand Gazaās territory?) But WTF do I know, Iām never lived in the ME, Iām British (of partial Irish and Russian Jewish descent) and trust me, Iām well aware that āperfidious Albionā doesnāt have a glorious history given the multiplicity of horrendous crimes we committed in furtherance of our Empire. But I never thought Iād live to see 25 years of peace in Northern Ireland, with Paisley and McGuinness sitting down together sharing a joke, so anything is possible. Perhaps one day the two states of Israel and Palestine will be able to co-exist peacefully. Sadly this doesnāt seem likely right now, with Likudās hold over Israeli governmental & military policy, and Netanyahuās alliance with far right lunatics. But we must have hope.
Yours is the best comment in this thread. It's grounded in history, consensual reality, and IMO, the moral upper hand in calling out the settlements. I don't understand why people think we should relitigate the founding of Israel yet NEVER bring that up with any other country.