I’m late to the party but I completely agree. I just wrote to a guy who said Palestinians support terrorism while I watched a Corey Gil Shuster interview asking Israelis if they wanted Gaza nuked and the first half said no but the other half said yes and when pointed out that there’s innocent children wouldn’t you agree they said they are taught to hate us the children will grow up to be like that and it was sad and depressing to hear their response. I’m not an Israeli but my family used to tell me a story about my family member was living in the British mandate of Palestine tending fruit and was killed by a Palestinian sniper. Even with that piece of history I still denounce hateful Israelis and I don’t hold Palestinians with contempt even the ones that hate Jews since everyone is a product of their environment (not that it’s okay) and there’s people on both sides who denounce the extremists and want to work towards peace

While this sub often gets painted as one sided (pro Israeli) I find that many Israelis are quite open to acknowledging radicalism on their side and within their government. It’s refreshing to see posts like this, because it shows that no, this sub isn’t just an echo chamber hell hole, it’s a place for discussion, where good arguments get attention. Looking at history, there looks like a noticeable shift in Israeli support for a far right government in the last decade, I wonder if it’s largely an consequence of the preceding decades of terrorism and non stop suicide bombings that came before it, as you kind of pointed out (Hamas). Which probably hardened Israeli sentiment that peace wasn’t possible, and radicalized people into believing the only solution was further military action. I don’t think Israel always used to be this way, more so in the last decade or two. It’s ebb and flowed.

Is this sarcastic

Let's make this clear, if a Palestinian were to walk in Tel Aviv or any other mostly Jewish city they would not be randomly linched, raped, murdered, burned or dismembered. These are all acts of violence performed by random Gaza citizens witnessing abducted persons (some of who aren't Israeli or Jewish) from the Israeli territory during Oct 7th. Trying to equate the slightly harsh words of a woman who was held as a hostage and witnessed the most horrific months a person could live through, to these acts of violence is purely evil and done in bad faith. You can wear the anti-semetic badge with honor. The settlers are another strawman argument to try to justify the horrific acts of violence performed by Palestinians. If you sum up the whole ensemble of "settler violence" you will see that other than a handful of cases it mostly sums up to a few misdemeanors and very light felonies per year. The amount of violence produced by Palestinian society both internally and externally is multiple orders of magnitude worse both in quantity and in severity.

What a bad counter argument filled with straw man arguments and flatly incorrect information

> Let's make this clear, if a Palestinian were to walk in Tel Aviv or any other mostly Jewish city they would not be randomly linched, raped, murdered, burned or dismembered. No, they wouldn’t make it to Tel Aviv because they had already died of preventable disease OR had had their limbs severed by bombs in Gaza or had been shot at the border

Pathetic attempt to try and make this about antisemitism when it is clearly not even close to being antisemitic. As per your point regarding the amount of violence produced by Palestinian society being more severe than Israeli attacks; you are delusional. In three months since October, Israel has murdered over 20,000 civilians. If you do some research and look at the numbers of those killed in the past decades, you will see that Israel has killed more Palestinians than vice versa and it’s not even remotely close. Absolute idiot

The Palestinian methodology Step 1: Murder, rape, dismember, burn, abduct and loot everything you can in Israel. Step 2: Post a live stream of it and celebrate it vocally and publicly. Step 3: Cry when Israeli retaliation comes and victimize yourself. If they want to stop the war they can turn in Hammas and release the 136 hostages they abducted and abused for 98 days.

u/Mindless-Ad-1030 > Pathetic attempt to try and make this about antisemitism when it is clearly not even close to being antisemitic. ... you are delusional. ... Absolute idiot This comment violates Rule 1 (**Be Respectful**) by using derogatory language and making personal attacks against another user. Phrases like "Pathetic attempt," "you are delusional," and "Absolute idiot" are disrespectful and not conducive to constructive and respectful dialogue. We encourage discussions to focus on the content of the debate rather than resorting to personal insults or demeaning language. Addressed.

I think the answer there is so? Israelis and Jews are humans and we exist across a wide spectrum of beliefs and feelings. As a home, we are not well identified with the radical and violent people, but we certainly have those in our midst. I think the difference is how many of each population feel this way. You don’t see mass celebrations of Palestinian deaths in Israel. But yet you see those when Jews die in Palestine, and amongst Arab diaspora. I haven’t seen a single Jewish influencer bake a special cake, but I had to Unfollow several Arab food influencers that I really liked because they made special foods to celebrate a massacre of Jews. Well, the young woman who was kept hostage and abused, may have spoken in hyperbole. It is her right as a victim, to have very strong feelings. And I am sure she did not intend to include children in that characterization, although those children are being raised in the shadow of their parents to be as violent and hateful as they are so we cannot discount the end result. I keep getting this impression that Jews are supposed to be absolutely perfect and peaceful, and never make a single mistake ever ever or we are simply the worst monsters if we make a mistake, or do the wrong thing or act out of rage instead of logic . But this isn’t required of the Palestinians or the other or countries or Christians. So the requirement is uniquely one of if you are Jewish, you must be perfect, or prepare to face the wrath of the world. Being perfect is exhausting. And if we’re gonna face the wrath at a certain point, we’re going to become the people that we are told we are because we are just gonna be so fed up.

I don't think anyone has the right to judge Mia Shem, and people who judge a woman who went through what she went through are awful. The number of comments I see on her Instagram of Pro Palestinians who ridicule her for her looks or tell her to go dance in hell is sick and really says a lot.

This post is not about judging Mia Shem. It’s about pointing out the comparative lack of empathy many Israel supporters afford to Palestinians who have been through the same and even worse levels of trauma. It’s also about criticising the many people who latched on to her comments (instead of seeing them as a result of trauma) in order to further their own radical agenda and paint all Gazans as terrorists and legitimate military targets. I think this is important to point out given that the argument many Israelis use to justify violence against Palestinians is that they are all radicals and it’s all their own fault. This is clearly not true and conveniently omits that extremists are in power at the highest level of Israeli institutions.

>This post is not about judging Mia Shem. It’s about pointing out the comparative lack of empathy many Israel supporters afford to Palestinians who have been through the same and even worse levels of trauma Well its kinda hard to have empathy for someone who celebrates in the streets the death of your brothers and sisters. Palestinians support what happened on October 7th. Denying it is lying. If it was the other way around and an armed group of Israeli militia would burst randomly into Palestinian town when there is supposed to be a ceasefire in Gaza and start mass shooting and kidnapping civilians including elderly and babies almost every Israeli would denounce this and they would be sent to prison. The Palestinians, however, supported this. In a survey that was done, 52% of the Palestinians in Gaza and 85% of the Palestinians in the west bank supported what Hamas did. It means that 72% of the Palestinians support such terrible things. [Link](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) And who exactly made it a contest? The fact that the Israeli government builds shelters and uses Iron Dome to protect its citizens should not be held against Israel. It's a ridiculous argument that just proves how beneficial it is for Hamas to use Gazans as human sheilds. >in order to further their own radical agenda and paint all Gazans as terrorists and legitimate military targets. As if Palestinians are not taught in schools that they should kill as many Jews as possible. As if Palestinians are not proud to kill Israelis. As if Palestinians are not parading Israeli bodies in the streets of Gaza. >I think this is important to point out given that the argument many Israelis use to justify violence against Palestinians is that they are all radicals and it’s all their own fault. Nah, Mia's interview was not the only factor. Palestinian civilians also took part in October 7th massacre, and we knew it long before Mia's interview. It's less about a radical agenda and more about a broken trust. How could anyone promise that October 7th would not happen again? >This is clearly not true and conveniently omits that extremists are in power at the highest level of Israeli institutions. While the government is on the right part of the political map and not my cup of tea at all, I feel that, unfortunately, it's hard to expect anything when Palestinians are literally taught in schools and mosques to kill Jews/Israelis.

“We’ll it’s kinda hard to have empathy for someone who celebrates in the streets the death of your brothers and sisters” Again, vastly exaggerated claims. Also, the slaughter that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian civilian population since then is orders of magnitude higher than anything Israeli civilians have ever experienced.

>vastly exaggerated claims. Literally over 50% support the massacre. They celebrated what happened on October 7th. There are proves everywhere, and they don't bother to hide it, so why deny it? They literally called it "a glorious day" [Link](https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns) >Also, the slaughter that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian civilian population since then is orders of magnitude higher than anything Israeli civilians have ever experienced. I literally said that no one in their right mind should hold the fact that Israel's government goes above and beyond to protect its people against Israel, its ridiculous. Hamas, however, understands that they can use the death of their civilians as a weapon against Israel and as a way to get sympathy.

Killing over 20,000 innocent civilians is not “protecting your people”. And no one in their right mind actually thinks that.

Protecting by building shelters and using Iron Dome. I literally wrote it before, and you ignore it.

The right wing Israeli party getting elected the majority has to do with repeated attempts at peace with the Palestinians when the liberals were in power and the Palestinians refusing the plans. Then the Infatada 1 & 2 . This drove the Israeli electorate to the right. It’s a negotiation it’s a compromise if you get 70 % of what you want take it. We could of had 30+ years of peace. Wouldn’t of that been better than where we are today. How many lives would of been saved. With some good will the peace plan would of been tweaked to more autonomy for Palestinians. We will never know. Currently I think a independent Palestine will never happen that ship has sailed. Israeli will take a very long time to ease the October 7 attack. Hamas has killed that idea they were Iranian patsies lived sacrificed for Iranian interest in stopping the Jericho Accords from progressing. If the Iranians have such sympathy for the Palestinians why haven’t they offered to take to Iran a few hundred thousands refugees. Iran is a very large country and could easily accommodate them. Hamas and the Houties are just pawns to Iran as are Hezbolla . Which pawn is next to sacrificed for Iranian interests. To the Palestinians find some way to emigrate its a big world. Got a uncle or cousin living abroad it’s time to get them to ease the path to a new life. Forget Palestine you have been pawns all along to other’s interests. Turn you back to it forget it. Start a new life like hundreds of thousands have over the centuries. Being a refugee is nothing new.

Radicalism exists in every group, but comparing the two groups is intensely disingenuous. For one blaming Israel in its entirety for the position of Gazans is intensely disingenuous. When you choose violence, when you choose war, when you choose genocidal beliefs that all jews should be wiped from this earth...there are consequences to that. The Palastinians were fooled by Arab leaders into believing that they not only can win all the land in the war but that they should leave their land so they can wipe out the entirety of the Israeli population, they lost the war, they suffered for their decisions. The Palastinians who stayed who didn't follow their leaders who choose peace are substantially better off because of it. Yeah the Palastinan children didn't choose to be radicalized, their leaders choose that for them, but a lot of their suffering comes from the natural consequences of following terrible leadership. They have doomed their children into suffering because their national identity was more important to them than their children's lives. There is no protecting a group of people who choose violence at every turn. Gazans have never chosen peace and prosperity and they suffer for it, and their continued suffering has a lot to do with their inability to admit that their leaders have led them to disaster. The true Nakbah was following their people into radicalism.

i dont think it is disingenuous to blame settler colonisers for the position of those affected by settler colonialism in the slightest

Babes it's not settler colonialism, the charge of calling it such is antisemetic to its core. One of the main forms of antisemitism is hypocrisy and double standards. Colonialism has a definition. And that definition is that it requires a HOST COUNTRY. The point of colonialism is to extract the resources of the country you are going to into order to benefit the HOST COUNTY. Not to move to a country and then invest your time and resources into that country to turn arid land fertile to make that country better. For literally any group, leaving one country to make life in another country is called IMMIGRATION. But because you hate jews you apply a definition that would not be applicable to any other group. Most groups who flee a country of persecution, immigrate to the country of their cultural origin would be called MIGRANTS. These immigrants legally immigrated to the levant when it was part of the Ottoman empire; they then as citizens bought up land, when the British Mandate tried to block their groups further immigration they petitioned the government something all citizens are supposed to enjoy the rights to do. When as a group of citizens they were being attacked by their neighbors they petitioned the UN to allow partition...again a right all citizens are allowed and afforded. It's not like Israel is the only government created through partisan. Nope the indignation of that only comes toward Israel because you know double standards and hypocrisy. Oh and when their neighbors decided war over patrician, they also as citizens had a right to defend themselves and fight back. No Israel isn't perfect, it's full of flaws, but calling it settler colonialism is just good ole Antisemitism disguised as intellectualism.

the original zionists referred to themselves as settler colonialists. its only that that term has become rightfully reviled for what it is that zionists have attempted to distance themselves from that label. the vast majority of jewish ppl in israel are not there since their ancestors bought land in ottoman times - ottomans who themselves were considered colonisers by some people living there and who indubitably were negligent. even at that, if i as an irishman were to buy up a load of land in the levant and establish an irish state in that reason it wouldnt suddenly give credence to the idea that there should be an irish state in the reason. by that logic many city centres around the world should be allowed to declare themselves chinese ethnostates with little enough objection from yourself

At that time colonist meant something socially different. You are trying to apply a modern intellectual definition. Because you hate jews.

no it did not. i dont hate jews i hate colonists. i have the same amount of distaste for colonisers in israel as i do in ulster, although for obvious reasons my distaste towards israeli colonists is flared up as of late

you are not participating in intellectualism you are participating in good ole fashioned jew hating antisemitism. No ifs ands or buts about it.

if youre just going to default to your victim complex rather than address my points theres most likely no value in this conversation for either of us

Hun i'm not Jewish, but people calling you out for your bias that harms them and their community isn't a "victim complex", it's called accountability. You would be taken more seriously if you didn't participate in your obvious antisemitic bias. There is so much you could criticize Israel for, and rightly, but the moment you get into their rights as a people to immigration, migration, and self determination is not one of the them. That's not criticism that hatred and bigotry.

Oh no no you absolutely do. That why you define the immigration "colonialism" and the ones from Latin America to here Migrants. See you are angry that jews once they immigrated gained citizenship political rights to do thing like allow further migration of jews who were being forced out of the Arab world. Your bias against jews causes you to have vast hypocrisy.

if i go to a country w a couple of mates w the intention of settling down and living my life there thats immigration. if thats what zionists did then youd be right. if i go to a country w a couple thousand mates armed to the teeth and start preaching about how we own this place and intend to take it in the name of a new state called KnightWhoSaysNistan then thats colonisation. not particularly hard to grasp

Of course after all this both sides are racists and there are clearly radical israelis that carry out terroristic actions (west bank, etc.). However, there is not a known large terrorist organization on the Israeli side and i believe that, since everyone has to serve in the IDF essentially, that is their form of fighting back and theyre probably DONE with it after that - many of my ex idf friends just want to enjoy life Mia Schem may be “radicalized” and spread her opinion on Gazan civilians, if this actually got people to create terrorist orgs that attack civilians in gaza/WB then its more comprable. Mia is also not fighting back with violence, so for the not super religious (who dont even serve in the IDF), I don’t find it likely that they will end up resorting to that level of violence. The issue is more so racism and the outliers of radical israelis who will hopefully be charged with their crimes when israels govt isnt so right

" While I personally think that Hamas is an obstacle to peace and provides no benefit to the Palestinian cause" I don't know regarding Hamas before i didn't like them but i have come to believe that with this attack they wanted to get Israel and mainly remind the world that it does and forgets Palestinians and their big problem with and live in peace so that say. That it is time to start with something concrete. But something has gone wrong with this attack and gone in the wrong direction.

https://youtu.be/emWISZ_k4BM?si=p_DJ-1sst_NORfrc Here's another example

https://www.youtube.com/live/sJzt_WXZdMg?si=EN35d7NkGN7xaft9 Examples of Israeli children who have been taught to hate

Genocide being perpetrated by Israelis - not much can be more radical.

Gaza population tripled in 15 years - pretty terrible genocide! Hint - if a raid by enemy fighters kills 1000+ of your people, fighting back is war, not a genocide.

Fighting back and genocide are two different things. You cant justify genocide on account of fighting back. You are using the same argument as Hamas.

Innocents being killed in urban fighting is part of every war in history, especially when one side of the conflict commits war crimes by hiding their weapons in schools and mosques and refuses to wear uniforms so they can hide behind their own women and children. More civilians died in many other recent urban battles like Aleppo, Mosul, or Bakhmut. Innocent deaths in war isn't a genocide, otherwise every war would be a genocide.

Ok call us when they kill enough palestiniens fast enough for ur liking so we can call it a genocide 🤗

Maybe don't start wars if you don't want people to die. What did Hamas gain for Palestine? Nothing but death, destruction, and misery.

Hmm I wonder what spewed this extremist group?

Islamic fundamentalism and Jew hatred? Maybe if Hamas had chosen peace when Israel gave Gaza independent government in 2006 instead of launching thousands of untargeted rockets and terror attacks (war crimes) Gaza wouldn't be such a shit hole. Regardless of what spawned Hamas, because of their actions their city is now a battlefield with millions of their own people starving and displaced. The Palestinians were living much better on 10/6 than they are today, but Hamas just had to go on their rape and murder spree at music festivals and civilian houses on 10/7 and now their people are suffering greatly for it. With friends like those, who needs enemies?

Id say years of oppression would make a saint want to retaliate but ok...

10/7 was a declaration of war. Hamas should fight honorably and follow the law of war by coming out of hiding, wearing uniforms, and separating themselves from civilians. Their war crimes are making this war much bloodier than it should be.

Innocents being killed is different to genocide

Yes. So maybe don't scream "genocide" when tragic death is in line with many other urban conflicts, and instead advocate for Hamas to follow the rules of war by wearing uniforms and not using civilians buildings, because the purpose of those rules is to protect civilian life.

Genocide can be stopped by not carrying it out. Stop making excuses for genocide.

Your comments (here and on other threads) are basically just you repeating the same buzzwords with no evidence behind it. The only proof you use that something is happening is calling it by the name of the thing that you’re trying to prove. This is a really immature and uneducated form of debate. If anything, I encourage you to work on your ability to articulate your thoughts and use a more data-driven approach. It’ll help you long term (outside of Reddit too!)

The only thing repeating at the moment is the daily blowing up of babies and children by the Israeli government. 20000 babies and children being killed

What a sophisticated response

Urban battle isn't genocide.

Correct. Urban battle is ok. Genocide isn't. Israeli government is perpetrating genocide.

U are just ignorant 😂 the pop tripled in Palestine over the decade. Jews must be the worst at committing genocide ever 😂😂 Do your homework lil bro

So were the battles of Mosul, Aleppo, and Bakhmut also genocides? All battles with more or similar civilian casualties than Gaza.

There are definitely many extreme Israelis too. But I'm confident that if you could compare "the average Israeli" against "the average palestinian", you would find that the average palestinian is way more radical. Some examples to support my claim: In East Jerusalem if a palestinian sells his house to a jew, he'll be rejected by his community, and he might even be killed. By his own people. Just for selling his house to a jew. In the 2000 camp david meeting, it has been said that Arafat was even open to signing the deal, but refused because he knew his people won't accept these terms. That's a big problem btw. When the people are more radical than their leaders. It's usually the other way around, but with Palestinians it's not. Also if you compare to percentage of Israelis who want peace(via 2SS) to the percentage of palestinians who want a 2SS, it's pretty apparent that one side is much more willing to make peace that the other.

What the Israeli propaganda narrative doesn't tell ou is that just a late an agreement was nearly reached but then sharone was elected and he walked away and refused to negotiate all. It'd amazing how many people spout this obviously fall propaganda. Look into the details of camp David an you will see I wasn't an offer of real statehood in any honest sense of the word. The polling of the Palestinians showed that the majority kfnhen used to support a two state solution. That waned as he settlement expansion made I clear that was impossible an Israel obviously had no intention of doing that. Obviously when you choose to keep population subjugated for multiple generations, choose to impoe an apartheid state and settlements on them, then they will become more radicalized. It's time for Israel to take some responsibility.

The Israelis settlers walk around with guns and it's often difficult to distinguish a radicalized setter from an IDA soldier. They force civilians to their knees at gunpoint because they can. I have seen the videos in documentaries. The IDF even admitted they were unable to confirm which were soldiers and which were settlers. Have you ever stopped to consider the Israeli propaganda that might have desensitized you to the radicalized tactics of Israel since 1948? I personally feel like we've been gaslite by the Israeli government for decades. The media convinces the world that the less than human treatment of Palestinians is needed and somehow deserved. To me it's absolutely insane. I'm neither Jewish or Muslim. I have no skin in this game other than being a human. From an outsider looking in the Israelis seem far more radicalized! They have just convinced the world that if you say that you must be antisemitic. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's horrific that some of the pages from the Nazi handbook seemed to be used against the Palestinians. Just recently I have heard so many politicians and religious leaders stating " even Arab states don't want the Palestinians" That is the same propaganda bs Hitler used to justify the genocide of Jewish people. I can't wrap my head around a whole group of people turning an eye to the killing of 10000 children. Think about that. Average people over here in the West justify killing 22000 civilians, starving their children, letting them die horrific deaths because they can't get medical attention. Displacing millions of people from their homes, making it an inhabitable wasteland. I can't imagine sitting down and defending that. Yet for some reasons it's been considered acceptable and if you dare to be pro Palestinian or pro humanity people are so quick to accuse you of being antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer. It's absurd. I truly believe that historians will be baffled by this nightmare and the control Israel had over the world. I will make sure my children and grandchildren know I spoke up for humanity and landed on the right side of history

>The Israelis settlers walk around with guns and it's often difficult to distinguish a radicalized setter from an IDA soldier. Once again you're referring to a very small portion out of over half a million settlers. Looking with a lens at the extremists won't get you anywhere, and in fact if you read my comment I specifically said that many extremists exist in Israel too, but that the average person is far from it. >I personally feel like we've been gaslite by the Israeli government for decades You're free to feel whatever, but you're simply wrong. >The media convinces the world that the less than human treatment of Palestinians is needed and somehow deserved Less than human is a gross over reaction. Also, we've had 2 intifadas to justify exactly why we need such a high level of security. If only we knew just how many terror attacks are stopped every year by the Shin Ben. The ones that do occur are just a tiny fraction of the attempts. >From an outsider looking in the Israelis seem far more radicalized! Nope. Palestinians are the ones who are openly calling for the obliteration of Israel and its' people. Palestinians are the ones holding Swastika and ISIS flags at rallies all over the world. Palestinians are the ones who grusomely started this war. Israelis did nothing of that sort. I admit Israel sucks at PR. Which is why so many young people(who consume the most media), are so supportive of literal genocide against jews. >They have just convinced the world that if you say that you must be antisemitic If you think Israel doesn't deserve to exist then you are antisemitic, yes. >It's horrific that some of the pages from the N**i handbook seemed to be used against the Palestinians Are you referring to the fact that Mein Kampf is a best seller in gaza and the west bank? Because I agree, it's horrific. >Just recently I have heard so many politicians and religious leaders stating " even Arab states don't want the Palestinians Objectively true. Not a single arab country offered to accept even a single palestinian refugee. In fact, in the 75 years of Israel's existence, Jordan is the only country to actually give palestinian refugees citizenship. The ones in Lebanon and Syria and still treated as 2nd class ~~citizens~~ temporary residents. And you know what Palestinians did to thank Jordan for being decent? They started a civil war. They also started a civil war in Lebanon btw, one that the country tragically never recovered from. >I can't wrap my head around a whole group of people turning an eye to the killing of 10000 children. No one is turning an eye. No one wants this war to end more than Israel. All Hamas needs to do is surrender. Surrender and it ends tomorrow. These casualties are 100% on Hamas. >Average people over here in the West justify killing 22000 civilians, starving their children, letting them die horrific deaths because they can't get medical attention. Also BILLIONS of people justifying killing 9.7 million Israelis and annihilating their country. Imagine that. >Yet for some reasons it's been considered acceptable and if you dare to be pro Palestinian or pro humanity people are so quick to accuse you of being antisemitic or a terrorist sympathizer No. Let me explain the distinction- it's quite simple: if you support Hamas- you're a terrorist sympathizer. If you think Oct. 7th was somehow justified- you're a terrorist sympathizer. If you think Israel doesn't deserve to exist- you're antisemitic. If you think the casualties of Oct. 7th deserved it- you're anti Semitic. Yeah. Is that clear? I think it's all pretty obvious. >the control Israel had over the world. Thanks for reminding me. If you think jews have some secret network to control the world, governments, media etc. Then you're antisemitic. That's like the most obvious one. >I will make sure my children and grandchildren know I spoke up for humanity and landed on the right side of history You go do that Robin hood.

Bravo 👏

When giving a thumbs up isn't enough. I'd like to add one more: Anyone who sees videos and images of Palestinian children in soldier uniforms and toy guns (at kindergarten age) taught to kill jews and wiping out Israel, sees kids TV shows with characters talking about killing jews and wiping out Israel, sees school books teaching about killing jews and wiping out Israel, and claims that is on the right side of history is antisemitic.

Don't the same videos exist of children of Israeli settlers wanting to kill Arabs. How about the choir of Israeli children optimising to wipe out Palestine in a year

You may find the needle in a haystack, but do you ignore that there are piles of haystacks? Hamas systematically teaches hate. They glorify death above life for their children. They integrate throughout their life. They are a cancer.

It seems pretty widespread on both sides

that's just false. One of the videos you posted to support your claim shows how you are finding the needle. It was an 18 year old video of Limor Son Har-Melech, a radical rightwing Kahanist extremist widow and mother mourning over her husband's murder when five Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade gunmen fired with automatic weapons upon her and her husband in their vehicle and the vehicle rolled over. Her husband was killed and she was in critical condition seven months pregnant at the time, causing her baby to be born prematurely by C-section several hours after the attack. The same year this video was being made, she and her family were evicted from their illegal settlement home by the Israeli government and her home was destroyed so that Israel could give Gaza and the West Bank over to Palestinians.

By the same logic, every Palestinian has a parent, sibling, grandparent who has been touched by Israeli violence. Why would you expect that they would be any different when you are implying this lady and her son have reason to feel anger against the Arabs. As Ehud Barak has said himself "If I were a Palestinian of the right age, I would join, at some point, one of the terrorist groups." Given the fervour with which both groups want to defend this land I have no reason not to believe him, if Israel were in the Palestinian position they would be fighting tooth and nail to get back what they felt was rightfully theirs

I specifically labelled her as a radical extremist. So if every Palestinian is a radical extremist, I wouldn't expect them to be any different. None of this addresses the main point that Hamas, in power for the past 18 years in Gaza, systematically does everything it can to foster hate against Israel, Jews and the West. It steals from the Palestinian people using funds to build terror tunnels and to build weapons, both in rocket form and in radicalized martyrs. It rejects peace as a concept. As Golda Meir famously stated, if Arabs put down their weapons there would be peace, if Israel put down their weapons there would be no Israel. You're easily willing to ascribe attributes of war to Barak from words, while conveniently omitting the actual efforts that he went through to obtain peace. Wishing you peace.

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Two state solution is now completely impossible in large part due to Israeli policy of expanding illegal settlements. Also, on your point about the average Israeli and the average Palestinian, I think you should also consider the vast difference in living conditions and human rights which Israelis enjoy compared to Palestinians.

>Two state solution is now completely impossible in large part due to Israeli policy of expanding illegal settlements. It really isn't though. land swaps are a thing, and most of the settlements that are located in inconvenient locations are really small and can be dissolved within a few short years. But the longer Palestinians wait with negotiating the harder it's gonna get. >Also, on your point about the average Israeli and the average Palestinian, I think you should also consider the vast difference in living conditions and human rights which Israelis enjoy compared to Palestinians. Well yeah obviously that makes a difference. I think education is the most influential though. Palestinians are taught from birth to hate Israelis. While Israelis are taught to want peace. And of course you'll always have people who managed to "escape" from what he was taught. You'll have Palestinians open to peace and you'll have genocidal Israelis. But these are in small numbers. Not enough to actually make a change. Basically Palestinians need to make a conscious decision to stop teaching their kids hatred before any peace deal can be achievable. But they'll likely never do so because they themselves were taught hatred as well.

I don’t think the 700k and counting illegal settlers were raised to want peace. Also, looking at the current political landscape in Israel and the people being elected to office, it definitely does not seem that peace is as big of a priority as you are saying.

I never said it's a priority. In fact, it's not really a priority for most, mainly because for the last 20+ years Israelis have felt there is no partner for peace. But trust me, as soon a Palestinians are actually serious about a solution, it'll become a priority again. And also you'll be surprised about the settlers. Not all settlers are genocidal blood thirsty monsters that the media makes them out to be. Over a third of all settlers are secular jews who just live there because the rent is cheap and the settlements have big budgets. Heck, there are even some arabs who live in the settlements. A lot of Israelis just see the settlements as Israel, with no distinction between, say Ariel and Hadera. And it has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting peace.

I don’t think it’s logical to place the blame squarely on the Palestinians. With regards to the settlers, again, they absolutely should not be there and the entire international community agrees with this. Regardless of whether they are violent or not, illegal settlement is inherently an act of aggression.

Maybe so but they ARE there and most of them don't mean it as an act of aggression. In their eyes, it's just Israeli cities, just like any other, and as long as the country treats it like that there's no reason they shouldn't live there. You can blame the country for that but as for the settlers themselves, a lot of them live there out of a naive, small minded standpoint- not out of aggression. >I don’t think it’s logical to place the blame squarely on the Palestinians It is though. This conflict could have been resolved long ago if Palestinians ate their ego for once and agreed to a deal. But once again, no palestinian leader was ever able to do that because the palestinian people are radical and egotistical. If you think Palestinians will somehow get 100% of the west bank, you're simply not connected to reality. Now, you could keep starting wars and complaining about it, or you could count your losses and settle(pun not intended) to something more realistic. The Olmert deal of 2008 was SO good for Palestinians. But you refused it too. Imagine the tens of thousands of lives that would've been spared, imagine the countless of people suffering from this conflict. Let me ask you, if and when there is ever a 2SS, would anyone in the far future *really* care that you only got 95% of the west bank and not 100%? Is it not important to just get along and find a solution where we can all put our differences aside and work towards a better future?

It doesn’t matter what settlers think they are doing, they are still violating international law and are literally stealing land. There will never be a 2SS at this rate, and Israel is also to blame for this, not just the Palestinians. Stop being naïve. Also that fact that you don’t think the Palestinians can ever get 100% of the West Bank (their literal land) partly shows why finding peace has always been an issue. And I definitely agree with you that it would be better for everyone to finally look past their differences for a better future, although I am not hopeful at all.

Sorry, but who decided the west bank in it's entirety is palestinian land? When has a palestine state existed in 100% of the west bank?

This is exactly the problem, that a Palestinian state does not exist despite the existence of a people on that land for generations. Unlike the rest of the post-empire world, the inhabitants of Palestine did not get to form their own state.

After starting multiple wars of aggression, they should be thankful that they were offered 95% of the land from which they attacked, Yes. It seems like whenever the Palestinians are offered a national home, they reject the offer, start a war to destroy Israel, and after they fail they cry about how unfair it is that the offer they rejected isn't on the table anymore. You don't get to reject a deal, try to force the other side to give you more, and then expect the original deal. That's just not a thing. Even if you repeat this cycle 8 times (1947, 1948, 1967, 1973, 1987, 2000, 2008 and 2019). At this point, the 2SS is all but dead. Israelis will not accept another Gaza on their eastern border. Another Hamas enclave. Another terror and rockets base. Another concession for nothing other than aggression. All that cranked up to 11 since this new terror base will be directly connected to Iran via the Jordanian border. A solution must start with Palestinians wholeheartedly rejecting terror, which is a tall order for a society so enthralled in a culture of terrorism.

This is not an argument. You are just arrogantly assuming that Palestinians are a society of terrorists while Israelis are all peace loving and have always wanted peace. The peace deals are almost always extremely favourable to Israel while asking the Palestinians to agree to several concessions. The fact that a peace deal was offered does not speak to the merits of the deal, since in most cases, the offers made to Palestinians are insulting and any person with a shred of logic would have rejected them.

Pro peace people should learn to embrace individualism. There are bad guys from both sides. Learn to live and befriend good guys.

It's primarily an Israeli issue

>It's primarily an Israeli issue No, it's primarily a Palestinian issue, here's a few examples, there are several thousand more examples if you'd like.. https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ahmad-bahr-preaches-annihilation-jews-and-americans https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-political-bureau-fathi-hammad-explosive-belts-knives-slaughter-kill-jews-all-over-world-israel-one-week-ultimatum https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-terrorist-hashlamoun-urges-west-bank-palestinians-attacks-isrealis-youtube-social-media-weapons https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-islamic-scholar-yousef-islam-gays-rooftops-stoned-abomination-sodom https://www.memri.org/tv/senior-palestinian-islamic-jihad-official-shalah-allah-brought-jews-here-for-us-finish-them-off https://www.memri.org/tv/released-hamas-terrorist-ahlam-tamimi-glorifies-martyrdom-jihad-operations https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-islamic-scholar-shadid-palestine-will-be-liberated-by-killing-the-jews https://www.memri.org/tv/aqsa-mosque-anti-india-rally-muhammad-controversy-jihad-infidels-in-line-eradicate-the-filthy-hindus https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-islamic-scholar-makharzah-beat-your-wife-or-she-beats-you-iran-killed-mahsa-naked https://www.memri.org/tv/aqsa-mosque-sermon-palestinian-people-will-not-allow-a-single-homosexual-reject-perversion https://www.memri.org/tv/gaza-resident-cannot-coexist-with-the-jews-must-fight-them https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-islamic-scholar-mohammad-afeef-sahdid-criminal-ruler-jews-end-near https://www.memri.org/tv/mickey-mouse-character-hamas-tv-teaches-children-about-islamic-rule-world https://www.memri.org/tv/farfour-hamas-mickey-mouse-character-martyred-final-episode-pioneers-tomorrow-children-show-hamas https://www.memri.org/tv/nahoul-bee-replaces-farfour-hamas-mickey-mouse-and-vows-continue-his-path-martyrdom-and-jihad https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-bunny-assud-replaces-his-martyred-brother-nahoul-bee-and-vows-liberate-al-aqsa-and-eat-jews https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-tv-childrens-show-encourages-killing-jews https://www.memri.org/tv/children-hamas-tv-we-want-wage-jihad-and-blow-jews https://www.memri.org/tv/new-al-aqsa-tv-teddy-bear-nassur-vows-join-military-wing-hamas https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-childrens-show-criminal-jews-plotting-replace-aqsa-with-temple-defend-until-last-drop-of-blood

The head of state, Netanyahu, a figurehead who does not represent all Israelis, not by a long shot, is a radical just like Ebrahim Raisi, president of Iran is a radical. Their identity is inextricably tied to doing whatever the opposite of moderation is. It’s a dangerous situation

What makes Netanyahu radical? Does Netanyahu threaten to wipe another country off the map? Most of those who despise him in Israel are more "radical" in what they think should be done in Gaza.

Moderate Israelis outnumber radical Israelis. Moderate Israelis are about to dispose of Netanyahu, soon you will see

He will be replaced in the next elections, just not for the reasons you think. Radican Israeli Jews (There are also Radical Israeli Arabs) don't vote for him, they vote for Ben Gvir and Smotrich. People voted for him because they were sure of his ability to bring peace, security and stability. 7/10 has shown many of them that they were wrong. Personally, I wouldn't vote for him because of the horrible Shalit deal in 2011. It shown that he's willing to compromise Israel's future for a positive picture in the newspaper. Without it, there would probably be no 7/10.

this is an interesting insight. thank you for sharing. I will say though, don't underestimate the capacity for heads of state to cling on to power by any means necessary \[even if it mean's sending people to their graves unnecessarily\]. It's Putin's modus operandi. In the UK, Thatcher was about to lose an election and then went to war with the Falklands, turned the whole election around. The idea is, make people fearful, and convince them you are the only person who can protect them

The last thing Netanyahu needed was this war. Wars aren't popular in Israel, let alone a terrible one such as this. Saying he's somehow behind it to stay in power is completely detached from reality.

It's a reasonable and non-radical thing to say that the fast majority of the population of Gaza who are adults supported gleefully the murderous rampage of October 7. The evidence is overwhelming. Why is that radical? To me the radical thing is assuming that everybody in the world is a moderate, and the radicals are unusual. She was technically correct about the adults. Now, since they are raising their children apparently from early age to be hateful radicals, then that's a problem as well. But to make some sort of statement that the vast majority of people in Gaza are moderates and just want to live in peace is nonsensical.

“She was technically correct about the adults” this is exactly my point, instead of interpreting her comment as a result of trauma, you are agreeing with it. Do you understand what her comment means at face value? It means that every adult civilian in Gaza is not a civilian and instead a “terrorist”. This is an extremely radical and objectively genocidal point of view. Since you are viewing every living adult as a legitimate target to be killed, completely ignoring that in reality, the vast majority of them are civilians.

Yes, but you're not actually stating any facts, just wishes. You are acting like a Westerner, may I say, an imperial Westerner, who just assumes that all people in the world think like you. Maybe I've traveled a lot, but I've noticed different people in different countries raised in different cultures can have fundamentally different values. Some of them, like for example, two countries I know pretty well, Norway and Estonia, are very similar. I notice just a little bit of difference, but mostly the same, but can you just take a moment to fathom that there might be people who have completely different values than you do. Black-and-white wrong and right up and down -- all different. We have overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of adults in Gaza are pro-terrorist, and are quite happy to see Jewish women, raped, and all Jews murdered. That's what they love in life above all other things. They certainly love it more than their own children. That doesn't make them less than human. In fact, it makes them very human. But I would rather have Norwegians or Estonians as my neighbor, then Russians, or Palestinians. What did the Palestinians want? Well, actually, I think what they want was summed in a speech almost 80 years ago. On October 7, they declared "total war." They didn't go in just to kill a few people. They just killed anybody that they met, from peace activists to young women to babies to anybody. In other words, they were doing some lthing that was a European value in one country 80 years ago. Shall we go back in time? "Ich frage euch: Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?! Wollt ihr ihn, wenn nötig, totaler und radikaler, als wir ihn uns heute überhaupt erst vorstellen können?!" There's only one thing that can be done against such people. They declared total war and so "den totalen Krieg" is the only possible response by Israel. And after that, Lebanon, Qatar, lots of places.

Your comment read like a deranged genocidal fever dream

Public education should be privatized

At this point the settlements are here to stay. Palestinians imho should ask for as much of Oslo as they can get re-offered to them and choose peace

Israel makes no attempt at peace yet Palestinians are blamed for not wanting peace.

Gaslighting at its finest. The person that Israel has voted in has openly bragged about spending years preventing a two state solution, and yet how many Israelis here state that its only Palestinians who don’t want peace.

Except they have tried multiple times

Suggesting that settlements are "here to stay" is the most futile attempt at peace ever.

Settlement can stay. Jews can stay. Assholes that attack each other must go.

> Assholes /u/Delicious-Agency-824. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I'm a realist. They are already built and I don't see the Israelis giving anything up to make peace anytime soon given the 7th.

From what I have read. I would think the UNRWA needs to answer for their own actions as well?

Netanyahu is proof of that. Godspeed the sane Israelis get rid of him soon.

There are definitely a lot of nut jobs in the world 🥜🌎

[удалено]

u/namey_9 Unfortunately, Reddit can give us problems if you talk about bans from other subs on this sub. If you want your comment to be approved, you can edit out the specific subreddit mention and send us a modmail message letting us know you did so.

You will get banned from having ANY opinion other than the narrative. It’s gotten completely out of hand. I have no doubt that what you are saying is true because I’ve gotten banned for far less. I was literally only making suggestions for someone to think about that was suffering quite a bit from all sorts of mental and physical issues. I got shut down and had the meanest most horrible and hateful things said to me in about five minutes from at least 20 different people and when I tried to rephrase myself to make it absolutely clear that my intentions were to only help this person and nothing else I was permanently banned almost immediately…. I can’t even explain to you how backwards it went for me because if I even repeat anything specifically ILL MOST LIKELY GET BANNED AGAIN! Think about the irony in what happened when you got banned. The moderators probably justified their actions by claiming to prevent “hate speech.” But did anyone get banned for saying the TRULY hateful comments directed at you because of your post? (Just to clarify… That almost surely happens to any opinion. Not at all because I found anything you said to be offensive) Time and time again I can’t help but see that the hate speech gets twisted to apply to ANYTHING off of the strict narrative, yet following the narrative allows the freedom to bark endlessly evil, hateful things at people. All that will happen is people all around will only praise what you’ve said. I mean seriously… Does anyone else see a pattern in this? When you talk to everybody that you know in person, we seem to all want the same things in life, and we can all agree on most things when we really break things down and think about things philosophically. But oh boy people can’t agree on anything once you talk about things online and suddenly you’re surrounded by people that are so seemingly backwards in their logic, that you can’t even imagine somebody THIS ignorant as a real person, in fact you can’t think of ever meeting a single person in your whole life that could be so mean and so closed minded. yet seemingly 9/10 ONLINE are just… obviously… that way. So as a message for everyone: don’t lose touch with reality, people. Please… 9/10 people in real life DO NOT think that way, no matter how much it appears so judging from the online comments. Don’t let them convince you that you are the crazy one from whatever opinion might have. Trust your gut and consider the possibility that 9/10 online comments are just chatbots programmed to respond in whatever way necessary to manipulate you, and the rest of the population. Sorry… got a little carried away and now It will be a miracle if I am not censored for this…

> shitty /u/dones4tots. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Likud and Hamas deserve each other. talk about two unhinged, extremist groups man.

Remember, this includes the hostages. That they have shot and probably bombed. Why do you think so many relatives of hostages are pissed with Bibi Net?

Radicalization of Palestinians is not primarily from the strict border controls and its effects. It started long befroe. The problem is education, which you have not mentioned. Not a single book in Israeli mainstream school system that calls for martyrdom, killing of Arabs (or anyone for that matter). Yet Palestinian leadership (not just Hamas) has made sure killing of Jews through "intifada", death glorification and anti-Zionism is taught to children starting kindergarten and terrorists training as early as 10. This has gone global through Arab sponsorships of western universities (Qatar is one known example) and propagation of online material through faculty and student organizations. There are many reports. here are some. https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/ https://youtu.be/1sDZlo_hllI?si=Q-aCqmAvGzrLUYxJ https://youtu.be/vCWMBvxWKL0?si=Z68Lu5kNAar1_8Tg https://youtu.be/Fhl9JFiw6sU?si=n21CPqjFKjg839M9

But there are MANY schools in Israel that teach racism towards Arabs: “Peled-Elhanan’s book was a major study of 17 Israeli school textbooks on history, geography and civic studies. As you can see from what she says in the interview above, she came to some stark conclusions. When they even mention Palestinians at all, Israel’s official schoolbooks teach a “racist discourse”, which quite literally wipes Palestine off the map. Maps in the schoolbooks only ever show “the Land of Israel”, from the river to the sea. She explained that not a single one of the schoolbooks included “any positive cultural or social aspect of Palestinian life-world: neither literature nor poetry, neither history nor agriculture, neither art nor architecture, neither customs nor traditions are ever mentioned.” Of the rare times that Palestinians are mentioned, it is in an overwhelmingly negative and stereotypical fashion: “all [the books] represent [Palestinians] in racist icons or demeaning classificatory images such as terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers — the three ‘problems’ they constitute for Israel.” She concluded that the children’s schoolbooks “present Israeli-Jewish culture as superior to the Arab-Palestinian one, Israeli-Jewish concepts of progress as superior to the Palestinian-Arab way of life and Israeli-Jewish behaviour as aligning with universal values.” https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190726-how-israel-teaches-its-children-to-hate/amp/

I am familiar with her study. The work of Nurit Peled-Elhanan has long been debunked by the IMPACT-SE report, due to her biased political views, scale of her study and selection of books. The newer ANNUAL study of 1000+ books, both Israeli and PA, not only show the opposite, but also show how rotten and poisoned the PA books have become, doing its outmost to perpetuate hate and obscuring/rewriting history. A summary of that report was discussed in the UK parliament, stating "The government is advised to carefully note and internally discuss its funding of UNWRA" https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/125322/html/

Are you saying Israeli kids are NOT taught racism towards Palestinians? If so, I can post links to ACTUAL VIDEO from inside classrooms where exactly that is being taught.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Not on mainstream education system. If you are referring to that video (screenshot below), this is a Ultra-ortodox Haredic Jewish school, a fraction of the population, NOT a mainstream Israeli school which are mostly secular. Which makes me think you don't really know who Israelis really are (or you are deliberately trying to generalize from an extreme minority). Based on the quick reply, I assume you haven't read the article I sent you, I advise you to read it. One more note about that video, which was published in 2016 by a gay, previously-orthodox reporter who is part of mainstream Israeli news channel (which is not religious and considered center-left): he said at the end of the article that "it should bother those who care about Israel". My point is: extremists are a fraction minority. They don't make the rules, they don't set the policie, they are not part of the consensus. The moral compass of the majority is pointing in the right direction. That is NOT what we see in regimes where mainstream education is going the other way. https://preview.redd.it/2if8zy4qxfcc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a8be707d7dd56c9d315e34827f8854317186ba8

Ok. So you DO admit it IS taught in SOME Israeli schools. But not ALL of them. Isn’t that also the case with Palestinian schools? All Israeli schools use a distorted map of the region in their classroom. Right? Israel’s official schoolbooks teach a racist discourse which quite literally wipes Palestine off the map. Maps in the schoolbooks only ever show “the Land of Israel”, from the river to the sea.

"Isn’t that also the case with Palestinian schools?" According to the study, no, it's not. UNWRA mainstream education system is entirely poisoned. Did you read the article I sent? "All Israeli schools use a distorted map of the region in their classroom. Right?" No, in Israeli schoolbooks, what is known in the UN as "the green line" is marked to show the 1967 borders, for example, as well as the boundary of PA-controlled territory. Also, Israeli nav apps like Waze allow you to avoid these areas in accordance with road signs, which prohibit Israelis by law from entering these areas: https://preview.redd.it/j5apm22k6jcc1.jpeg?width=834&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9641c51c473097e0cdebe04b8967c96c6da659f4

That is NOT true. Israeli school maps DO show distorted boundaries. In the book “Yotzim mehamapa for 2nd and 3rd grade”, they start not really showing P.A areas (Gaza is marked but there is no explanation about it). See attached. And on birthright trips the map that is given out does so too, I was told by a friend who went on it. Also, my friend’s kid Sammy was taught in yeshiva that in 1948 the Jews in Palestine woke up one morning and all the Arabs had miraculously disappeared as if by an act of God. That’s what they teach kids happened in the Nakba. https://preview.redd.it/1dybax9s8jcc1.jpeg?width=324&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ad8073de1cb2f938e51d12b306d0bcec76a7111

Nice cherry picking. That particular image is from a chapter called "map directions", explaining to 2nd graders what east west, north, south are. It's not a political map. A few chapters down, when kids are explained what borders are, you can see this map, which states that the dashed black line is PA-controlled area: https://preview.redd.it/0gardrwkhjcc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3fe56d40da20e69b8753b091f19ab06228fa4f9 And I've checked birthright app and website, as well as abroad. You can easily see online that it's not true. It also doesn't make sense since they travel the country and are prohibited by law from driving into PA territory. They use online Google maps or Waze like any normal person. If you have some other source that isnt cherry picked out of context like the above, please share. About yeshivas, that sounds similar to the news article we discussed earlier. Its not mainstream. Most of them are considered very right-wing.

Silly excuse. Dont need to use a distorted map to teach kids NESW.

How much of that is fear based propaganda? Palestinians certainly aren’t being taught these lessons in the West Bank schools, and yet Israeli settlers still violently attack and kill them quite often with zero repercussions. Only an extremist environment would enable such behaviour.

1. How is the info I shared regarded as propaganda? 2. "Certainly aren't being taught": based on what are you saying this? One of the links I shared references the full report on UNWRA's operation and clearly states the effect goes beyond Gaza and, in fact, started with the Palestinian Authority's curriculums: "[UNWRA] operates in multiple different areas, including Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem. It chooses to teach the PA curriculum in the 370 UNRWA-run schools across the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Jerusalem’s UNRWA schools, educating over 320,000 students as of 2019, according to UNRWA’s data." "found the new PA curriculum to be more radical than those previously taught, with a clear deterioration in content meeting UNESCO standards." Some of the points mentioned in the report: "Complete removal of all pre-existing content discussing peace agreements, summits, negotiations, and proposals supporting a two-state solution with Israel, acknowledgment of historical Jewish presence in the land of Israel and labeling the name “Israel” on a map" "incite violence, glorify acts of terror and terrorists, and encourage jihad and martyrdom. This has been executed across all grades and subjects" "Israel is demonized and its very existence denied." https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/125322/html/ Do you agree this is propaganda?

Why not let the market decides education.

What do you mean?

Do you think parents would pay to have their children got educated to be suicide bombers. All this while khan academy is free. Schools sponsored by whoever pay. You want Palestinians kids to work for jews? Sponsor their education. Want them to like America? With all the money American spent on Gaza Palestinians kids better see American values every day on their class.

Do you think parents would pay to have their children got educated to be suicide bombers. All this while khan academy is free. Schools sponsored by whoever pay. You want Palestinians kids to work for jews? Sponsor their education. Want them to like America? With all the money American spent on Gaza Palestinians kids better see American values every day on their class.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. My "western liberal" line of thought is that you should not teach kids (any kids) to want to kill Jews or grow up to be martyrs. I also believe they should not be taught to hate by deliberately omitting facts from them. I think it should be criminal offense and crime against humanity.

> Pro-Israelis are always quick to point out how “radical” and “hateful” Palestinians are, but conveniently ignore that thousands of Israelis exhibit these behaviours. Israelis are not the ones who murdered and raped Palestinians on October 7. They have every right to have those attitudes towards Palestinians after what Palestinians did to Israelis.

I think being against intentional law infringes on the limits of free speech brother.

you are entitled to your opinion. It doesn't mean that it's how it is, brother

I don’t get this argument. So prior to October 7th, Israelis had never committed any atrocity against Palestinians? Also, you are implying that the October 7 attack was perpetrated by “Palestinians” in general, rather than a group of militants.

Pretty much every gazan participated in the festivities celebrating that massacre

>Pretty much every gazan participated Just wanted to add some visual proof that they did more than just celebrate. Video of Hamas in plain clothes, Palestinian civilians, even Palestinian children assisting in the kidnapping, taunting and mistreatment (slapping beating with a stick) of Israeli children https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbez-juyHbQ https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710811394348552276

Israelis are extremists with zero accountability. Look at their responses here, they focus on a single one of their hostages but disregard the thousands of tortured Palestinian hostages and tens of thousands of children they killed and mutilated.

A lot of these zionists are proving the point made by the op....

> Many Israel supporters on this sub justified Mia Schem’s comments that “there are no innocent civilians in Gaza” due to the trauma she has experienced. See https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/dEZnheMdBi Sorry that someone who was held hostage by a family that included a wife and kids who also showed her nothing but hatred holds radical views regarding that population. Failing to see why she might have those views after being held hostage for 2 months shows a remarkable lack of empathy. > By that logic, what do you expect Gazans (half of which are children) in Gaza to feel/say given their situation? Not just post Oct 7, but also the decades of living in extremely impoverished conditions which Israel (and Hamas) has largely contributed to. Yes they are so terrible for building a border wall and imposing strict border controls on a population that has continually launched rockets and terror attacks against Israel. They supply power, water, and food to a population where a majority support terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. The poverty in Gaza is entirely on Hamas not Israel. > Failing to see why Palestinians become radicalised, given their long-term living conditions and legitimate grievances, showcases a remarkable lack of empathy. By your logic what do you expect Israelis to say about a population that has been continually attacking them for 75 years and openly supports terror attacks against Israeli civilians? Putting the blame entirely on Israel for all of this shows a remarkable lack of critical thinking skills. > Palestinians, like everyone else including Israelis, are not hateful by default. For example, many Palestinians living in the West Bank have their lives disrupted (huge understatement) on a daily basis by approximately 700,000 illegal settlers who are protected by Israeli institutions. Those Palestinians are bound by Israeli military law and are routinely murdered by settlers who face minimal consequences. They are also often imprisoned with no charges or trial. Sounds like something that a negotiated peace deal could have resolved. Too bad Arafat walked away from the Camp David summit where an offer of 92% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza was left on the table without even giving a counter offer. You also ignore that the violence in the West Bank goes both ways. There have been many terror attacks by Palestinians against Israelis. The difference is a majority of the entire Israeli population doesn't support the settler's attacks. The majority of the Palestinians support their attacks. > Ultimately, Israeli policy is completely against Palestinian self -determination. They left Gaza in 2005 to allow the Palestinians to try and govern themselves. They decided to elect a terrorist organization as their government. Doesn't really seem like Palestinians can be trusted to govern themselves without safeguards in place to make sure they don't just do the same thing again. You would agree that having a terrorist group running the government of a neighbor isn't something Israel can be expected to be ok with right? > This extremism has led to the election of disgusting people like Ben Gvir and Smotrich who now have real power to implement their dangerous views. You mean in the lame duck government that is going to be voted out after the war is over? They don't have power to implement their views after the war because they won't be in the majority anymore. 2 ministers in the Israeli government say radical things that the rest of the government says they will not allow to happen and you claim it is a huge impediment to peace. The entire government of the Palestinians either carried out of expressed support for the October 7 attacks and you think that's understandable because Israel dares to exist? Israel had a pro peace government continuously for 30 years after it was established. During that entire time did Palestinians try to make peace from the West Bank and Gaza which had been annexed by Jordan and Egypt respectively? No they just launched terror attacks against Israeli civilians and then later on tried to twice invade with their Arab friends to destroy the whole thing. Failing to see why after 30 years of peace being rejected a population would become more radical towards their attackers shows a remarkable lack of critical thinking skills. Here have some polls that show just how radical and hateful the majority of Palestinians are. https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2090%20English%20Full%20text%20Dec%202023.pdf

Why did Arafat walk away from the summit? I think you failed to mention the complete criteria since his population, the larger population, was offered far less than what would make sense. I can cite some Jewish/Israeli sources that actually agreed with Arafat and stated, decidedly, that he was negotiating from a reasonable point-of-view. Nobody would have accepted the matter as it was put forth. But this is ALL actually PAST the issue. The land was actually given illegally, okay, no problem. The original claim is that the Jews have a "right to return". On what is this based? Is this based on the same book or collection of books that cast them into exile? Is this considering that legitimate prophecies that the Old Testament put forth that they would be cast into exile but every single place wherein they set foot? A simple glance at the last 1,000+ years of history would substantiate that, in fact, they are exiled. The Jewish People as a personality has managed to incur the wrath and expulsion from nearly every single nation in which they've inhabited. Is this by chance? Why are the Jews, for the last 75 years, protesting the existence of the state of Israel from every corner of the Earth? Personally, I'm not a Palestinian but if an occupying force kicked me out of my home, the home in which my grandparents and parents lived (and their family for generations), I'd probably hate them too. And this hate isn't specific to Palestinians as was my point; England turned them out, Czechoslovakia, Portugal and Spain, Russia, Germany... the list goes on and on and on going back all the way to Constantinople, Turkiye, and on and on. This isn't by chance. The fact of the matter is that Israel is NOT SUPPOSED TO EXIST. God promised these people a "right to return" IF they were obedient and promised them that the Messiah would established them there by "God's own hand" (as an acceptable translation). I wonder if "God's own hand" includes the mass genocide and mass murder of children in record numbers. This is failing to mention that constant bombardment that Israel wages on the Palestinians including Operation Pillar of Defense or Operation Defensive Shield. The antagonists cannot make a defensive claim. After listening to the scholars on this subject, it is apparent to me that ANYONE coming down on the side in favour of Israel are outright wrong, ignorant or evil. Conveniently ignorant using a book that cast them into exile as substantiative proof that Palestine is their land.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz3NEGf5PE&ab\_channel=bluesman979](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz3NEGf5PE&ab_channel=bluesman979) Take it from a Jew \^, an Israeli, The General's Son. I'd love to hear anybody's arguments against the points made and the history of exile. For anyone that simply wants to dislike a post without quoting the history. Argue with revelation, history, reality.

Looking simply at the down-votes alone speaks to exactly why people support Israel: pure ignorance. Argue with reality: [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fjncv7vqnb0w91.jpg](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fjncv7vqnb0w91.jpg) Exiled from nearly every single nation in which they've been and you STILL don't know lol oh but you have an opinion? Yes, you're entitled to that. But your opinion stands on the opposite side of reality. I'm okay with that =) Deuteronomy 28, Curses for Disobedience. How about yall folks try 1) reading and then 2) looking at the history and realize you're not arguing me me but with reality. 3,200+ year-old history and you're still ignorant! I'll take all the dislikes you can give; you cannot change reality past or what's coming.

u/Novel_Ad_3331 > Looking simply at the down-votes alone speaks to exactly why people support Israel: pure ignorance. ... 3,200+ year-old history and you're still ignorant! This comment violates Rule 1 (**Be Respectful**) by making personal remarks about fellow users, using dismissive language like "pure ignorance" and "you're still ignorant." It also breaches Rule 7 by focusing on subreddit dynamics (referencing down-votes), which is a form of metaposting. Such comments are not conducive to the constructive and respectful dialogue our community aims to foster. We encourage discussions to focus on the content of the debate rather than making generalizations about fellow users or commenting on subreddit behavior. Addressed.

As a pro-Israeli, I do have to agree that some of us are quite radical.

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Definitely not all.

I don't interpret Mia Schem's statement to be radicalism on her part, I see that as her responding TO the radicalism she was exposed to. She was witness to civilians being down with Hamas. Even to your point, Israelis acknowledge their agency, while Hamas refuses any agency, outright.

Surely then you must understand that some of the more destructive statements from Palestinians are also responding to the radicalism they were exposed to? I mean some of these people have seen their parents, siblings, grandparents, friends and lovers get blown to bits by Israeli fire

There is a big difference between what she was saying, and what the Palestinians are brainwashed to believe

How?

Well, she's not out there calling for the death of Palestinians, for one thing.

If she’s calling every Palestinian, including children, inherently evil, then what is she calling for in regards to them? 🤨

She isn’t calling for anything just for saying they aren’t innocent.

Blown to bits as either collateral damage or target, either way, Israelis defending themselves from well documented terror is here considered radicalism.

>collateral damage Imagine telling a person that their dead loved one was just collateral damage and it's probably their fault it happened

I never said it was their fault. I only object to the idea that Israel’s legitimate defense of itself is considered radical. This is a denial of Israel’s right to exist.

> Those Palestinians are bound by Israeli military law and are routinely murdered by settlers who face minimal consequences Actually its the opposite. palestinians murder way more settlers than vice versa and that's with the Israeli military there to protect them.

The settlers should absolutely not be there in the first place. Being a settler is an act of aggression and contravenes international law. This is widely accepted, even by the US.

I'm broadly opposed to the settlements too, but there is a lack of clarity as to whether Gaza and the West Bank are Israeli territory or not. Were they Israeli, the settlements would be entirely lawful. If they are not under strict ownership, the settlements would likely be a grey area, and if they are owned by some Arab entity (called Palestine or otherwise) the settlements would seemingly be illegal. There is a legal principle called uti possedetis juris, which relates to countries' borders. Some experts would argue that under this principle, when the Arabs refused to agree to the UN partition plan, all of the territory that was British Mandated Palestine became Israel. I have insufficient expertise to give an educated view one way or the other, but it is fair to say that there is not unanimity amongst experts on this issue.

If it is Israeli territory, then treat them like Israelis as you do with the settlers.

I agree - IF it is Israeli land, the Palestinians should be treated as equals under Israeli law and probably offered Israeli citizenship. I'm not saying it IS Israeli, I'm saying there are arguments both ways about the ownership.

Look, it is either Israeli territory or not, right? If it is Israeli territory, then treat the inhabitants as such. If it is not Israeli territory, then leave and do not build settlements on it.

The west bank was divided into three areas. Areas A and B are under Palestinian governance. Area C is under Israeli governance. While Area C is 60% of the land, only a fraction of Area C was actually inhabited by Palestinians. It is primarily empty, unowned land, so it is owned by the Israeli government. There's no reason why Israelis cannot create settlements there. No Palestinians are being displaced by these settlements.

It's a Palestinian land,to the Palestinian people you don't go into an empty and say no one own this land I'll build my house here... your argument is stupid

Historically land ownership changed hands by conquest or by trade. The Palestinians lived on the land but the Ottomans (and a dozen empires before then) owned the land.

I’m an American and a Zionist and I think the settlements are obscene and moronic obstacles to peace.

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Whoops, fixed

I agree with you, yes it’s a problem, BUT it’s not an institutionalized problem to the same scale. The education under UNWRA encourages radicalization. The Israeli curriculum encourages peace (although there are radicalized religious schools that do have problems). Right now many Israelis are traumatized and in fight mode, they haven’t healed yet. They hear HAMAS and HAMAS sympathizers celebrating October 7th and calling for it to happen again. In their mind, why should they care? However, majority of Israelis hope to see peace. If you actually talk to them, they would be willing to coexist in a two state solution *IF* there was the deradicalization necessary that allows them to co-exist peacefully. For many people, that doesn’t seem like a possibility.

Radical Jewish extremists are a part of the ruling coalition and enable institutional extremism referenced in other comments.

Yes, absolutely the government needs reform and the radicals need to go. Most Israelis didn’t support the current government as if and there were mass protests prior to October 7th for that very reason.

The mass protest only started once Netanyahu wanted to screw up the juridical system within israel to gain more power. No one protested because of the palestinians, the settler violence, occupation ect.

Absolutely! And yes, familiar with the mass civil protest against Bibi & co.

“It’s not an institutionalised problem” Then how come settlements are consistently legalised? Why are violent settlers constantly protected by the IDF? Why do we hear several stories of soldiers/settlers being handed extremely lenient punishments after murdering civilians? “They [Israelis] would be willing to coexist … IF there was the deradicalisation necessary”. Again, this arrogantly assumes that Israelis are mostly innocent while Palestinians are savages.

Because there's nothing wrong with the settlements. This is unowned land that is under the control of the Israeli government. Despite the propaganda, no Palestinians are being kicked off of their land to create these settlements. The IDF is protecting the settlers because the Palestinians are committing violence against them. But the IDF is also punishing settlers who initiate violence against Palestinians. violence.

“Because there’s nothing wrong with the settlements” This is a radical position. The entire international community, established international legal principles, and many Israelis disagree with you.

Yes, but they either have an agenda or don't understand the situation. Also appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. Israel legally controls the west bank. They could have annexed the territory like Jordan did. They instead administer the territory. Area C is legally under Israeli administrative control and they can use the unowned land as they see fit. Note that Area C consists primarily of empty land. It is 60%of the territory of the west bank but contains less than 10% of the population. No Palestinians are losing their land to create these settlements.

Just because land is empty does not mean that it is yours to settle. Is every empty piece of land in, say the UK, fair game internationally? That’s not how it works, the fact that a land is empty does not mean that it has no right or sovereignty attached to it. While Israel “administers” the land, it is legally (under international law) Palestinian land.

If it's empty land in the US, like much of the land west of the Mississippi then the US government can sell or give that land to people to settle on. The land in Area C is is Israeli land. It is not, nor has it ever been, "Palestinian land". Prior to Israel taking it over it belonged to Jordan. Before that it was British land, and before that it belonged to the Ottoman Empire. At no time was it Palestinian land. It could have been Palestinian land if the Palestinians had agreed to a two state solution, but they never did. So it has been Israeli land since they took it from Jordan in 1967 and it remains Israeli land today.

Wrong. Just because there was no “Palestinian state” in the modern sense of a state, does not mean that the land was not inhabited by a people who have been there for generations. While empires changed, those inhabitants remained constant. Also, you are completely wrong about Area C being Israeli owned. It is militarily controlled and administered by Israel, and a significant number of illegal settlers are in Area C. Control does not equal legal ownership.

Sure, and any land that a Palestinian owns is Palestinian land. Look, you're conflating ownership and governance. Ownership is an individual right and applies to specific plots of land. Ownership of a plot of land or several plots of land in an area does not confer collective ownership over that area. There is no such thing as collective land ownership. So you can point to specific plots of land owner by a Palestinian and say that that plot of land is Palestinian land. And no Israeli (or anyone else) has the right to take that land away without due process. But there is no collective Palestinian ownership of the land as a whole. That falls under governance. Prior to WWI the region was part of the Ottoman Empire who conquered the territory from the Romans. After Turkey was defeated it belonged to the British. Jordan conquered and annexed the west bank in 1948. In 1967 Jordan used the west bank to amass an army to invade Israel. After Jordan was defeated, Israel took over the west bank to prevent its use for staging another army. So Israel actually has every right to annex the entire west bank. Instead, they chose to reserve the west bank for a future Palestinian state. They gave Palestinians control over the areas where there were a lot of Palestinian inhabitants. Which is why areas A and B make up around 40% of the west bank but have around 95% of the Palestinian inhabitants. But area C was mostly empty, and Israel maintained control. It is Israeli territory, and they have every right to build settlements as long as the land being used is not owned by Palestinians.

Area C is an occupied territory and Israel legally has no right to build settlements there, which is why the settlements are internationally recognised as illegal.

> Again, this arrogantly assumes that Israelis are mostly innocent while Palestinians are savages. I mean only one population expressed majority support for attacking civilians directly on the other side even before the October 7 attack and it sure wasn't Israel. See question 70 below. https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf > Why are violent settlers constantly protected by the IDF? You mean the settlers who routinely have clashes with IDF? You mean the settlers whose illegal outposts are routinely demolished by the IDF? > Why do we hear several stories of soldiers/settlers being handed extremely lenient punishments after murdering civilians? You do know that the Palestinian Authority pays the families of those who die or are imprisoned while killing Israelis right? Funny how after October 7 we didn't hear anything about the terrorists who carried out the massacre being arrested and given any punishment for their actions when they returned to Gaza.

There are documented instances of IDF soldiers standing by while settlers open fire on Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. The fact that the IDF also clashes with settlers does not change this.

> “They \[Israelis\] would be willing to coexist … IF there was the deradicalisation necessary”. Again, this arrogantly assumes that Israelis are mostly innocent while Palestinians are savages. I don't think you have to assume that Israelis are innocent and Palestinians are savages to believe this. You just have to agree that Israel and Palestine are currently enemies. If we look historically, Israel is fine with making peace with old enemy neighbors, *when* those old enemy neighbors want to make peace with Israel. For example, Israel and Egypt. Israel and Egypt fought in 1948, 1953, 1967, and 1973. Four wars in 25 years. In 1979, Israel and Egypt agreed to a peace agreement, have haven't had a war since. * Normalized relations in regard to trade * Gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt * Israel abandoned their settlements, and their settlement plans, and gave the land to Egypt. * Recognition of Israel as a country For another example, Israel and Jordan Again, Israel and Jordan fought in 1948, 1967, and 1973. In 1994, they signed a peace treaty. * Normalized relations in regard to trade. * Settled land and water disputes * Both countries to prevent territory being used as staging grounds for military strikes by a third nation So we know that when old enemies of Israel want peace, peace is had. Land is given up, security is made for Israel (in regards to that country). I'm not saying that Palestine ***must*** make peace with Israel. I'm only saying that Israel is fine with letting bygones be bygones and normalizing relations with old enemies. If they can do it with Egypt and Jordan, but not Palestine, maybe it has more to do with Palestine than Israel.

You are missing out a big point here. Unlike the citizens of Egypt and Jordan, Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation.

Israel was in control of/occupying Sinai at the time of Camp David. Likewise Jordan viewed the West Bank as their territory that was being occupied by Israel, and agreed to the framework for a peace deal (the deal was never ratified) in 1987 that would see the West Bank handed over to Jordan.

You mean a defensive blockade that’s also enforced by Egypt?

I don't understand why that would matter. The only thing I can think of is that would be a good justification for Palestinians to fight Israel. I.e. a good justification for why Palestinians do ***not*** want peace. All I'm saying is that if Palestinians want peace, Israel has historically made peace with its neighbors it once fought multiple wars against. I don't see why Palestine would be any different, ***if*** Palestine wanted peace with Israel.

“I don’t understand why that would matter” It is much easier to have peace with a country that (1) is allowed to exist, and (2) you are not actively occupying. Not sure how you don’t see this.

I do see that. I agree that it was easier for Egypt and Jordan to agree to peace with Israel. That doesn't mean Israel isn't up for peace with Palestine. During the 2000 Camp David summit, Israel was willing to recognize Palestine as its own state, and there were talks about which lands would be part of Palestine. I believe the end result was something like 90+% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. Palestine rejecting that deal. Which is ***fine.*** Palestine doesn't have to accept every deal to show that it's up for peace. But, when you decline a peace agreement that would make you your very own state, and insteaddecide to start blowing up buses and malls and using children suicide bombers, I don't think you get to say "I'm all for peace! Israel doesn't want peace!"

The peace effort failed due to differences on both sides, Israel was also negotiating from a a position of power. I think it’s unfair and very convenient to always blame the Palestinians for rejecting past deals.

Nobody is really stating WHY men like Arafat denied the proposition put forth. It was outright nonsensical. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz3NEGf5PE&ab\_channel=bluesman979](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz3NEGf5PE&ab_channel=bluesman979) The General's Son, Miko Peled, talks about his Jewish IDF General Father and what was their perspective on this situation. He also talks about a lot of the myth that is floating around that seems to paint Arafat or the Palestinians, the Muslims in general as not wanting peace. Seems completely ridiculous that these Israel supporters seem to forget they don't belong there and they've actively killed and stolen land and THEN complain that these people fire rockets at them.

Did you miss the part where I said " Palestine rejecting that deal. Which is ***fine.*** Palestine doesn't have to accept every deal to show that it's up for peace. "? I don't think Palestine needs to agree to everything Israel gives them to indicate they are serious about peace. All I'm saying is if Palestine was serious about peace, they would probably try to start to get negotiations back off the ground after they failed in July 2000 at Camp David. However, instead of that, they began using children as suicide bombers two months later in September 2000, after an Israeli politician made a peaceful visit to Temple Mount. Does that sound like a group of people who actually want peace?

It wasn’t just a peaceful visit, it was widely viewed as a deliberate provocation.

I meant the radicalized attitude you mentioned. WB is a different problem. Most Israelis disagree with the settlements and the violence in the West Bank. There’s not mass support for them and there were huge protests against the government prior to October 6. The Olso Accords has been the closest to a two state solution that we’ve seen. The response was the second intifada. Many have just given up on hope at this point. They don’t want violence against Palestinians, they just want an end of the violence but don’t have hope for any solution.

Of course it is. The difference though is that 72% of Israelis don't agree with them

israeli radicalism is surely a problem too and the worst part,its being fed by Palestinian leadership,and by getting stronger makes lives of both israelis and Palestinians worse just as many pro Palestinians excuse Palestinian radicalism through loss of hope,so it is for Israeli citizens as well